Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. Fifth Session. First Assembly. Volume II. 23rd May, 1966 to 24th June, 1966

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UBLS DEPT A

OV

Republic

of South

Africa

Government

Transkei

EX UNITAT VIRE S E

Debates

of the

Transkei Legislative Assembly

Fifth

Session

First Assembly

Volume

23rd

May,

1966

to

II

24th

June ,

1966

INDIANA UNIVERSITY Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly

by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty. ) Ltd. , Umtata.

NOV1 3 1969 LIBRARY

茶

( PRICE 50c )

GENERAL INDEX.

A

Pr Additional State Departments for Transkei ... www

Adjournment of Assembly

www

9

Address , Opening

207 1 ...

448

Administration of Oath to New Members

...

3

Amendments to Transkei Constitution

UUU

8, 352

Announcements , Miscellaneous

www

3, 4, 10, 24, 34, 53 , 54, 62, 73, 119, 145, 168 , 175, 187, 237. 247, 254, 270, 278 , 299, 322 , 332, 335 , 346 , 10

www

: DUD

...

?

Apologies

Appointment of Committees

...

DOU

4

900

4, 5

B ...

Bills: Notices of

:

8 :

...

93, 100

: 9

(Second Reading)

:

Bills : Appropriation (First Reading)

119, 135, 145 , 157, 168 , 175 , 193.

(Committee of Supply) .. :

(Third Reading)

202

...

...

8

Transkeian Flag (First Reading)

74

(Second Reading) ...

888

(Committee Stage) ...

100

000

(Third Reading)

il

Transkeian Standing Rules and Orders (First Reading) (Second Reading)

95

(Committee Stage)

100

(Third Reading)

119

Transkeian Government Service Amendment (First Reading)

187

(Second Reading) 203 (Committee Stage) 222 (Third Reading) Transkei Education (First Reading) ...

226

202

939

(Second Reading)

222

(Committee Stage)

248, 260, 270, 279, 285. oor

311

Transkeian Liquor Laws Amendment (First Reading) ...

248

(Second Reading)

276

(Committee Stage)

307

(Third Reading) ..

311

(Third Reading)...

Transkeian Police (First Reading)

254

000

(Second Reading) 900

278, 309

UUD

(Committee Stage) .

312, 322

(Third Reading)

332

Transkeian Authorities Amendment (First Reading) vor

322

(Second Reading)...

332

(Committee Stage)

336

QUO

352

Transkei Co-operative Societies Amendment (First Reading) www

332

(Second Reading)...

336

(Committee Stage)

353

(Third Reading)

360

(Third Reading

352

Transkei Agricultural Development (First Reading)

Committees: Appointment of

(Second Reading)

360, 368

(Committee Stage)

380, 388 , 404, 417, 436.

(Third Reading)

447

www

...

4

:

Creation of Sub-chieftainships : Kentani District

89 D

Discussion of Transkeian Public Service Commission Report

218

E

Extension of Period for Notices of Motion ...

11 F 90, 96, 111

Full Independence to the Transkei : Granting of G Granting of Full Independence to the Transkei

90, 96, 111

Investigation into Living Conditions of Labourers

344

M 300

Messages

3

Minister of: Agriculture and Forestry: Policy Speech of

168

Education: 139

Policy Speech of Finance and Chief Minister:

119

Policy Speech of

Justice : 135

Policy Speech of The Interior:

158

Policy Speech of Roads and Public Works :

184

Policy Speech of Motion: No-confidence

000

12, 17, 24, 34, 43, 54, 62.

Motion: Notices of

000

5, 6, 11

N New Members: Administration of Oath to ... No-confidence Motion

3

900

12, 17, 24, 34, 43, 54, 62.

Notices of Bills...

Oaths: Administration of

4, 5, 6, 187

000

3

1

Opening Address P Period for Notices of Motion:

11

Extension of

Policy Speech of the: Chief Minister

119

Minister of Agriculture and Forestry...

168

Minister of Education ...

139

Minister of Justice

135

Minister of the Interior ...

158

Minister of Roads and Public Works ...

184

Proclamation R400 : Suspension of

000

330, 354, 375, 445

Provision for Upper House for Chiefs and Lower House for Elected Members

224, 226, 237

Q Questions: Replies to

24, 73, 131 , 187 , 215 , 254, 300, 347, 401.

R Replies to Questions

24, 73 , 131 , 187, 215, 254 , 300, 347, 401.

Report of Sessional Committee on Public Accounts

450

Reports or Documents: Tabling of

930

6, 8, 11 , 34, 62, 157

6, 12

Rule 67: Suspension of :

S Sessional Committee on Public Accounts: Report of

451

www

Southern Sotho an Official Language in Transkei

243, 247, 338

÷

Sub-chieftainship: Creation of...

830

www

Suspension of Proclamation R400

www

...

Suspension of Rehabilitation Scheme

www

www

244

www

www

6, 12

89

93 330, 339, 354, 375, 445

:

Suspension of Rule 67

930

3

T ...

Tabling of Reports or Documents

www

Training for Africans outside the Transkei

::

Transkei Constitution: Amendments to

www

Transkeian Public Service Commission Report: Discussion of ... ...

6, 8, 11, 34, 62, 157 339

8, 352 218

:

U Upper House for Chiefs and Lower House for elected ... Members: Provision for

...

224, 226, 237

INDEX TO MINISTERS' SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE POLICY SPEECHES. MATANZIMA, the Honourable Paramount Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance). Bills : Appropriation (Second Reading) 93, 100 (Committee Stage) 119, 135, 145 , 168, 175, 193, 199 Transkeian Flag Bill (Second Reading) 74 (Committee Stage) 88 Transkeian Standing Rules and Orders (Second Reading) 95 (Committee Stage) 100 Transkeian Government Service Amendment (Second Reading) 203 (Committee Stage) 222 Transkei Authorities Amendment (Second Reading) 332 (Committee Stage) 336

Budget Speech : 93-95 Policy Speech: 119-122 Supply Vote 1: 122-131 , 135 MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G.M.M. (Minister of Justice). Bills: Transkeian Liquor Laws Amendment (Second Reading) 276 (Committee Stage) 307 Transkeian Police (Second Reading) 309 (Committee Stage) 312

Policy Speech : 135-136 Supply Vote 2: 136-139 MDLEDLE, the Honourable Mr. B.B. (Minister of Education). Bills: Transkei Education (Second Reading) 222 (Committee Stage) 248-285

Policy Speech : 139-143 Supply Vote 3: 143-157 MOSHESH , the Honourable Chief J.D. (Minister of the Interior).

Policy Speech: 158-162 Supply Vote 3: 162-168 MADIKIZELĄ , the Honourable Mr. C. (Minister of Agriculture and Forestry). Bills: Transkei Co-operative Societies Amendment (Second Reading) 336-337 (Committee Stage) 353-360 Transkei Agricultural Development (Second Reading) 360-374 (Committee Stage) 380-400 , 404-445

Policy Speech: 168-171 Supply Vote 5: 171-183 MABANDLA, the Honourable Mr. Z.M. (Minister of Roads and Public Works). Policy Speech: 184-186 Supply Vote 6: 193-202

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VOLUME DEBATES TRANSKEI

II

OF

THE

LEGISLATIVE

ASSEMBLY

1966 .

MONDAY , 23RD MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read . The minutes of Wednesday, 18th May, 1966 , were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : FIRST READING .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Well, Mr. Chairman , 4. the rules belong to the House - we do not belong to the rules . I do not think they are so watertight that we cannot just consider something which is really urgent. In any event , if you can direct me to anything which says this is outside the rules of the House , then I will just have to submit to your ruling, Sir. MR . K.M. GUZANA: members , as the hon. 0000

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of a Bill to provide for the control , administration and supervision of education and matters incidental thereto, the short title of which is the Transkei Education Bill , 1966. In view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 63 of the Transkei Constitution

Agreed to. The Bill was read a first time. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The second reading will take place tomorrow or as soon thereafter as possible. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : THIRD READING . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I move that the Bill be read a third time I feel I must honour my promise to the House that I would allow a discussion of the Transkei Public Service Commission report which was tabled here some time back. A discussion on this report should have been held on the day of the second reading of the Bill when I made my policy statement, but because the report was not tabled on that occasion I found it fair that before the third reading on the Appropriation Bill is passed we should at least have our observations on this report. Mr. Chairman , I move that you allow the House to have a discussion on this report. I do not think we are out of order, Mr. Chairman . You might think I am but I do not think I am completely out of order. I am making a special request to the House that we discuss this report before I move the third reading of the Bill. THE CHAIRMAN : the rules?

Is there any provision in

Chairman and hon.

THE CHAIRMAN : Are you seconding? MR . GUZANA: No , Sir. THE CHAIRMAN : I want a seconder, please. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , although I am quite aware that the hon. the Chief Minister is not really himself, but because of his promise to allow us to go into this I suppose we can second his motion that we go into this report.

Act No. 48 of 1963 , I now table a recommendation by the hon. the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 that the Bill be considered by the Assembly. Mr. Chairman , I move that the Bill be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second.

Mr.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Chief Minister has considered that there is no provision in the rules to cover his special request and that this request is made simply to meet the House and give it an opportunity to discuss this report. In view of the fact that it may be considered irregular to bring in this discussion at the third reading and in view of the fact that our rules provide specifically as to what has to be done at the third reading of an Appropriation Bill, being rule 144 - " The motion for third reading of the Appropriation Bill shall be decided without amendment or debate " - may I suggest that the hon. the Chief Minister request that the Chairman gives us some time in the afternoon just to discuss the report separately so that we do not introduce into the third reading of the Appropriation Bill something against which the rules provide. THE CHIEF MINISTER : How will it affect the third reading? I have not moved it.

MR. GUZANA: You have not but you have sought to have this discussed because you are going to have the third reading. That was your introduction . THE CHIEF MINISTER: If you do not want to discuss this now because it affects my policy statement , I will not move it at any other time . MR . GUZANA: You were the one who said you were to blame that it was not available and you are the one who is suggesting that we be allowed to discuss it , and it is the Chairman who is going to make a ruling on this point. I was seeking to assist the hon. the Chief Minister to give us an

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are not assisting me at all. MR. GUZANA : That is the trouble. When you give a baby castor oil it does not like it, but it is good for the baby. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, in reply to the remarks by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition , I just cannot understand how a discussion on this report can affect the third reading which has not been moved. In so far as the third reading of this Bill is concerned, the rules will stand unaffected but my request was that we discuss the report before the third reading because it concerned my policy statement which was made at the second reading of the Bill. In any event I cannot understand how his request can be made because we shall have to stick to this agenda which we have in front of us. I was trying to accommodate his request this morning.

MR. GUZANA: You made the request. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is the baby who has to have castor oil . (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid it is not on the agenda paper for today. Unless you make a special amendment on this I cannot allow it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, and I move that the Transkei Appropriation Bill be read a third time.

Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time. TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the proposed amendment to Proclamation R.334 of 1963 - that is , the law governing the conditions of service of Transkeian Government servants is intended to provide for consultation between the Commission and the heads of Departments before any direction as to the appointment qualifications to be possessed by persons for appointment by the Commission is given. In this regard I may explain that the Commission's powers as prescribed in the aforementioned proclamation are of a two-fold nature. Firstly, the Commission makes recommendations and every recommendation made by the Commission must be approved by the Minister of the Department concerned before any effect can be given thereto. Should the Minister not be in agreement with the Commission's recommendation , and if the Commission is not prepared to vary its recommendation in respect of a particular person, the Minister may submit the matter to the Cabinet which can either vary or reject the Commission's recommendation . In such event the Department is compelled to carry out the recommendation as varied by the Cabinet and the Commission will submit a full report of the matter to the Legislative Assembly. In other words , in the case of a recommendation by the Commission concerning a particular person provision has been made in Proclamation R.334 of 1963 for a Minister to dispute a recommendation of the Commission . Bearing in mind

that the Minister is held responsible for the efficient administration of the Department under his control, members will appreciate why provision exists for variation or rejection of the Commission's recommendation where a particular person is involved. However the Commission has in the second place certain directive powers . These powers are limited to those aspects which do not concern personalities , but rather the basic principles affecting the administrative personnel in the various Transkei Departments. In other words , the directions are made to ensure uniformity in all the Transkei Departments as regards personnel administration . Obviously the Commission, as central personnel agency in the Transkei Government Service , is deeply concerned and anxious to ensure that the performance of the duties and functions allocated to the various departments is not hampered by staffing problems which may be created if each department is entitled to determine the different state of educational and other qualifications for appointments in the Government Service. One can well imagine the staffing chaos if departments are free to compete with one another by way of more favourable service conditions or more lenient emoluments for its staff, especially if the same limited resources of properly qualified candidates are borne in mind. Hence no provision is made for the variation or rejection of a direction of the Commission as opposed to a recommendation. My Government acknowledges the necessity for the entrenchment of the Commission's directive powers but at the same time we want to ensure co-operation between the Commission and the heads of departments as far as the determination of appointment requirements is concerned. The intention of the proposed amendment embodied in clause 1 of the Bill therefore is to compel the Commission to consult heads of departments prior to the issue of a direction concerning the appointment qualifications to be possessed by candidates for appointment to the various posts on the fixed establishment. This in fact is the procedure thus far followed by the Commission and the proposed amendment will only give legal status to a procedure borne out of common sense and goodwill between the Commission and the various departments . Mr. Chairman , this in brief summarizes the intent of the proposed legislation. The amendments proposed in sections 2 to 5 of the Bill are either of a consequential nature stemming from last year's amendments , or the rectifying of printing errors in the English text of the Proclamation. Having regard to the non-contentiousness of the proposed legislation , it is trusted that hon. members on the other side of the House will support my Government's endeavours to put the personnel administration in the Transkeian Government Service on as high a plane as possible. Mr. Chairman , I move that the Bill be read a second time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I second. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in moving this Bill the hon . the Chief Minister has indicated that his aim is to re-organise the functions of the Public Service Commission so that they fulfil the requirements of the respective departments which are supplied with personnel by the Public Service Commission . Whilst it is always implicit in any law that consultation shall take place and that the Public Service Commission should have in mind the requirements of the department which seeks to have an employee attached to it, it is difficult to understand why such automatic

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consultation should now become the subject of legislation. In effect a department seeking to have an employee promoted or attached to it made its requirements known to the Commission by way of consultation, but there was nothing to bind the the Commission to honour those requirements made by that department .

MR. GUZANA: They have brought it up and one wants to ask the question : Was this initiated by them or is it probably the Chief Minister who has brought pressure to have them bring this along, since they are under his own Department? There lies the danger which we point out in connection with the provisions of this amending Bill .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are dealing with qualification requirements , not with employment.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The matter of qualifications is in the interests of the Department as a whole. We are dealing with qualifications, not particular individuals . Naturally the departments have to be consulted by the Public Service Commission.

MR. GUZANA: So the department might require that A should have certain qualifications and the Public Service Commission might feel that the qualifications he already holds might be sufficient for that employee to take on the job. Now the question is asked : Why should this be entrenched by way of a bill? Our fear on this side of the House is that very soon the departments will dictate to the Commission on this score to the extent that the Public Service Commission will not be an independent body and, depending upon the department concerned and the person who has to be consulted , the requirements may be changed at the whim of the department . To take a department at random the Department of Education , for instance - the Department may this year require that a particular post be filled by a person having Afrikaans on the higher grade. At a later stage the Department of Education might decide that that post should be filled by a person with Afrikaans on the lower grade. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not the department that has to consult the Public Service Commission it is the Public Service Commission that consults the department.

MR. GUZANA: Precisely - and when the Public Service Commission consults the department the department may vary its requirements and the qualifications for a particular post as it pleases.

you want MR. GUZANA : That is the trouble the Public Service Commission to go and consult the department .... THE CHIEF MINISTER: On matters of qualification. MR. GUZANA: Yes, on matters of qualification. Is it being suggested that the Public Service Commission is unable to determine or appreciate what qualifications are required for a person to fill a post in a particular department? I think the consultation should be vice versa. It is not the Public Service Commission which must be placed under an obligation to go to the department. The department should have , as it always does , the right to submit to the Public Service Commission what it would require by way of qualifications in respect of a particular post which has fallen vacant. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the Public Service Commission which fixes the qualifications. It has powers to give directives. MR. GUZANA: But why is it now going to consult the department? Why should it do that?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, that is not the case. You do not Understand the Bill.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is the policy of the Government.

MR. GUZANA: Yes, then the department may, in its requirements and in its change of those qualifications, bring about a hardship on applicants ; and implicit in this provision is the fact that the Commission will have to take into account what the requirements of the department are and that department may change its requirements from time to time, which means that the Public Service Commission

MR. GUZANA: That policy causes us concern. We want the Public Service Commission to be wholly independent.

has got to alter its qualifications as the department requires them from time to time. My view is that there need not have been any legislation on that point as it is taken as a matter of course that the Public Service Commission will consult the departments when it seeks to employ a person to go into that department. My own view is that the Public Service Commission should be as free and as independent as possible and no legislation should be brought in to compel it to do anything which might affect its independence.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the Public Service Commission is a section of the Chief Minister's Department. MR.

GUZANA: It is a section of the Chief

Minister's Department and.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, they people who have brought up this matter.

are the

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I ask a question? Does the word " consultation " mean that supposing the Public Service Commission consults the department and the Public Service Commission is not in a position to accept whatever recommendations are given by that particular department, will the Public Service Commission be compelled to take the suggestion of the department when we take the meaning of the word " consultation " ? MR. GUZANA: The Public Service Commission is not obliged to do so, but the Minister may take up the matter with the Cabinet and the Cabinet may overrule the decision of the Public Service Commission..... THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, not on the question of qualifications.

MR. GUZANA: ... and will then have a report made to this Assembly as we have a report in the Public Service Commission's report relating to an appointment already . THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a different matter.

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MR. GUZANA: It is a matter of qualifications , unless you have failed to explain what you meant by qualifications . You have consistently insisted that it is on the question of qualifications.

MR . GUZANA: Now we ask if a department requires an employee to have certain qualifications , why does that department not submit its requirements to the Commission?

R Sed

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes. MR. GUZANA: And the Public Service Commission's report before this House has something to do with qualifications. Why should the department not consult with the Public Service Commission instead of having the Public Service Commission consulting with the department? What the Public Service Commission should do is to lay down the qualifications and if a department feels it requires certain other qualifications then that department should come to the Public Service Commission . Now we go on to your further comments, that the other amendments merely correct technical errors and are consequential amendments . I would like the hon. the Chief Minister to explain this principle which is contained in section 3 of this Bill . I would like to know why he seeks to have the word "Transkeian" , because when I read the original section it contains the Transkeian Secretary to the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance" and the word " Transkeian" seems to be quite an important adjective there. There must be a reason why that adjective is being dropped. I do not think the hon. the Chief Minister should just gloss over that amendment. May he please tell us why, otherwise we have certain interpretations which we can put to that amendment, for that phrase read as it is before amendment seems to imply that an African who is a citizen of the Transkei can hold that post, and with this amendment it seems to imply that he need not be. We would like some motivation here. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are a multi-racial party- why are you afraid? (Interjections) MR. GUZANA: We would like the hon. the Chief Minister to explain his amendment because I think a principle is involved and a policy is involved in that amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am unable to understand the mentality of the hon . the Leader of the Opposition . He can make a big mountain out of a very small thing. I do not think he really understands the purpose of this Bill. I have made it clear that the Commission's powers are two- fold · that in the first place where the Commission makes a recommendation with regard to the appointment of a particular person and the minister of that department does not agree with the Commission's recommendation, then the minister can submit that matter to the Cabinet for its decision . Now the second point is where the Commission has to decide the qualifications to a particular post. In this respect the Commission has got directive powers . It can direct what the qualifications should be for a particular post . That is the appointment qualifications. Now we say that the Commission should, before making these appointment qualifications and before giving a directive , consult the heads of each and every department but they are not bound by the opinions of the heads of those departments . In other words, the Commission in making the directions must consult with the departments and after that consultation with the department then they can give their own decision. The intention of the Bill is not that the Commission should make directions in consultation with the department, but after consultation .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not dealing with a particular employee in this matter. We are dealing general appointment qualifications in the various departments. MR. GUZANA: Yes , of all employees . Now supposing a department wants certain qualifications in all its employees , why doesn't the department submit that to the Commission instead of placing the Commission under an obligation to go to the department?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are dealing with appointment qualifications to be laid down by the Public Service Commission. You are thinking of the department wanting to employ a particular individual with a certain qualification. MR. GUZANA: Let us put it this way that the department wants certain qualifications for its employees. Now why doesn't that department submit to the Public Service Commission what it requires by way of qualifications of persons who are to be employed in that department, and then the Commission, instead of being placed under an obligation to go to that department, (because you say "after consultation' )....

21 THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is a hypothetical question: Suppose they put their own qualifications without consulting the departments at all , what would happen? MR. GUZANA: I have said already that without any legal provision there has been consultation between the Commission and the departments . THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , the legal provisions are there for the smooth running. MR . GUZANA : That is administration. It has always been like that, but here you are placing the Commission under an obligation to go to the department. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are thinking of a particular department and I think because you were once a teacher you are so obsessed about the Department of Education. MR. GUZANA : No , I selected at random . I could have selected your Department too. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are only thinking of the smooth running of the departments. I do not want my Department to be clashing with the other departments all the time . MR. GUZANA: What is the clash in respect of qualifications? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Public Service Commission might put qualifications which are ridiculous in so far as a particular department is concerned without consulting that department. MR. GUZANA: But the department knows what it wants and tells the Commission.....

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6Y

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Let us take the Agricultural Department which knows what it wants. MR. GUZANA: ....but the Commission is not under an obligation to go to that Department. That is the difference. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not a matter of the Commission going to a department. We are dealing with the smooth running of the departments . With regard to your question in section 3, I think my hon. friend probably does not understand that we dealt with this matter last year. I was referring to Act No. 2 of 1965 where we made all these amendments. There is nothing new in that. Act No. 2, where we had "Transkeian Department" we just say Department of Justice and so on.

MR. GUZANA: Yes , that appears on page 1 of the Annual Report of the Public Service Commission. Why was it left out? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am trying to show you there is nothing new in the "Transkei " being cut out. We never say, for instance , " Republican Minister of Finance" every time it is mentioned in an act. We just say "Secretary for such- and- such a Department" . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , I would like some information . I am very sympathetic towards the Commission that serves under this Govemment especially because this Commission, unlike the Commission under the Republican Goverment, is only a branch of a department.

and force the Commission according to your own ideas . You do not want to leave the Commission free to work as they wish. In other countries even if the Government did not want a particular appointment the Commission is able to carry on its work in spite of the Govemment. So it was in France when the Commission actually was running the country. It is only that we want the Government not to direct appointments which are made by the Commission. Indeed, as our leader has already pointed out, each department tells the Commission what qualifications they require when they want to fill a vacancy . What you want is for the Commission to come to you and then you will tell them what you want. It is the head of each department who knows what vacancies there are in that department, not the Commission, and therefore the department ought to say to the Commission that they want a person with this or that qualification to fill the vacancy. Please do not force us to accept laws that are not really serviceable.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, it is obvious that this matter is a little bit above the members of the Govemment party . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, it is just that we are not garrulous like you. MR. RAJUILI: I wanted to pose a question to the hon. the Chief Minister. I remember at the 1964 session when we showered questions on the Chief Minister as to the status of the Public Service Commission and he assured us that the Public Service Commission is completely independent in its actions and he still says that now.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who is the Minister for the Public Service Commission in the Republic? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is. CHIEF NDAMASE: The Public Service Commis-

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sion is not part of any department in the Republic in that....

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: But who is the Minister? It must be under a certain minister. CHIEF NDAMASE: Under which Department is the Public Service Commission in the Republic? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Department of the Prime Minister. CHIEF NDAMASE: It is independent, unlike your Public Service Commission. The Transkei Public Service Commission is under the Department of the Chief Minister and if it has to consult with the Department, is it not bound to go according to the decisions or feelings of that Department even though it may not desire to do so. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

CHIEF NDAMASE: I do not know whether the reason for this amendment is section 46 of the Commission's report where it is made clear that the Commission and the Department were at variance and reference had to be made to the Cabinet. The Cabinet could not but support the Minister whose Department was concerned, and in truth the Cabinet supported what the Minister said.

MR. RAJUILI : But he has this moming committed himself in reading some of the blue papers there, together with his oral reply, and made an inference that it is under the Department of the Chief Minister and therefore has to toe the line. That is the implication . Then he goes further to say that consultation must be such that the influence of the heads of the departments must dictate what the Public Service Commission should do . In fact, summing up his reply it comes to that. He cannot deny that. Our leader has said that there is no need to lay down by act some such consultation on administrative matters. It is not necessary. The Chief Minister has failed to justify himself in that regard, hence do we feel that the Public Service Commission is losing that independence of activity and must dance to the whims of Government policy, as we shall clearly show when we come to some other matter. We are very hesitant to feel that some of the members of the Cabinet are trying to pressurize the activities of the Public Service Commission. I do not want to repeat what has already been said about what the department should do , but I want to repeat and emphasize that we now see clearly that the Public Service Commission becomes a tool and should dance to the whims and policy of the Govemment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You don't understand the purpose of the Bill.

THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question, that the Bill be read a second time .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are talking about appointment qualifications here. Come to the point.

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Agreed to by 38 votes to 36.

The Bill was read a second time.

THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage , hon. Minister?

Bantu in these offices , but be that as it may it is quite obvious that it is necessary that the number of these clerks should be increased if the wishes of

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Tomorrow morning, Mr. Chairman .

the Transkei people are to be met. On my visits to the local post office , Nobantu, I have often found the place so crowded that one has been obliged to visit the main post office but on arriving there one encounters White officials and although they do not say it in so many words they look at one with a critical eye as if to ask: What have you come here for? Why don't you go to Nobantu? It is often said that the Goverment is there to see that peace

ADDITIONAL STATE DEPARTMENTS FOR TRANSKEI. MR . M.H. CANCA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move:- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the time has now come for the Republican Government to transfer the following Departments of State to the Transkei Government in addition to the Department of Public Health which was the subject of an affirmative resolution in the 1964 session : (a) (b) (c)

Department of Posts and Telegraphs Department of Transport Department of Information

That the Transkei Government should request the Republican Govemment to amend the Constitution accordingly." Before I speak to the motion I would like to draw the attention of the House to paragraph 10 (2) (a) and (b) of the Constitution Act : " The State President may at any time by proclamation in the Gazette (a) assign the administration of further departments to the Cabinet and amend the first schedule to this Act accordingly; and (b) provide for the number of members of the Cabinet to be increased to not more than nine. " Mr. Chairman , it is not clear as to who should take the initiative in assigning these remaining three departments whether it will be the Republican Govemment or the Transkei Government. As there is no indication in this respect, we in the Transkei feel we should take the initiative and ask for these remaining departments to be given to us. It is now three years since the inception of this Govemment and at the opening of the Assembly we have always been told that the six departments which have been allotted to us are doing a fine job . If these six departments are complimented upon for their good work, we should not stop there but should go forward . You have heard that the motion asks for the assignment of the three departments, in addition to the Department of Health , about which we have already made our request. As · we are rather sore about these matters we feel we should ask for these departments. I shall deal first with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs . One might ask why it is that we are asking for this Department and if it is because we are feeling the pinch. In asking for this Department I want to say that we do so not with any ill-feeling against the Republic , nor do we have any opposition to White employees in this Department. We are doing so mindful of the hardships suffered by our people in this connection and we want alleviation in regard to this situation . Nobody will see to the interests of the people unless the Government of the Transkei itself does so. The hardships suffered by the people at post offices are terrible. The provisions made for the Bantu people are quite inadequate . The post offices themselves are very small and you will often find people crowded at the counter and it is difficult for them to be attended to . I am certain some of the Opposition members will bear me out in this. I am thinking particularly of the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke. It is all very well for the Republic to say it has made provision for our people. I am thinking of their employment of Bantu clerks to serve the

reigns amongst the people but there can be no peace if one section of the community is not treated well. We expect that in future we in the Transkei shall have our own Postmaster-General but we concede that we must proceed towards that goal gradually because it is our aim to eventually reach that goal. In asking for this Department we are mindful of the Departments which have been given to us , in each of which the Republican Government assists us by seconding some of its officials . We acknowledge that we have not got sufficient personnel to run these Departments but we want this matter to be attended to . We know that though they may have theoretical education , practical education is still necessary and it will be some time before they reach the standard where they will be able to run these Departments independently. We want this matter to be attended to because the electorate knows there is a Government to see to their interests and to do things for them. They wonder when they see this Department has not yet been given to us, and we as a Govemment can do nothing about it except to say that representations have been made to the Republican Government. I therefore move that this Department be transferred to us so that we may make provision for our people. We acknowledge the fact that it is for the Republican Goverment to give us this Department on its own. We are not pressing it. To pass on to the Department of Transport, here again I think it is proper that the Government assign this Department to us. As stated before , even in this case we are not forcing the Republican Government. In talking about this Department I am not thinking particularly of the Railways and Harbours , but I am talking of road transport in the Transkei . The Republican Government has already shown that it is anxious about this Department because we already have certain youths who have been trained to be bus-drivers in the Transkei . I want to say that we are grateful to the Republican Government for this step. We know also that certain roads in the Transkei have been given to us and therefore it is only proper that this Department should be administered by the Transkei Govemment. We already have a Transportation Board, but we should like that Transportation Board to be controlled by the Transkei Government. We want road and traffic inspectors to be appointed from among the residents of the Transkei because that will create openings for employment for the sons of the Transkei . It would be necessary to train some people as engineers and technicians . That would necessitate their leaming from White officials by working under them until the time arrives when these things will be handed over to them . We also acknowledge the fact that even in this Department we have no trained personnel, but we are hoping that the Republican Government will lend us White officials who will see to it that we run these Departments efficiently. There are a number of disabilities suffered by people in this Department. When one travels from Kokstad to Umtata one notices how some people suffer hardships in certain places. You will

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notice that in certain areas crowds of people are waiting for a bus and they are far away from their residences. If it is a hot day the people run the risk of fainting and if it is cold weather they suffer severely from the cold. On many occasions people have complained and requested that shelters be erected for their protection against bad weather. I mention only a few places which some of the hon. members of the House will know. If you travel from Kokstad to Umtata you will come to a bus-stop known as Pakati. That is where the road to Bizana and Flagstaff branches off. It is a very important stop and the Government should see to it that the people are provided with a shelter for protection against hot and cold weather. It does not matter when one goes past this spot but there are always people waiting there. Another spot is between Mount Ayliff and Sugar Bush and there is another one in the vicinity of Tsolo village at the junction . I am certain there are a number of places like these but because this Govemment has no authority to meet the wishes of the people it cannot do anything. That is why there is a desire that the Republican Government should transfer these Departments to us so that we may see to the interests of the people. Another department mentioned in my motion is that of Information. In the main the staff of this Department works in the Transkei and for the people of the Transkei . It is very important that information be given to the people about our work. It is proper that since they are giving information to the Transkeian citizens they should be under the Transkei Government, even if they are placed under the Department of the Chief Minister. That will suit the people of the Transkei . An Opposition member asked why it is that the Department of Finance has not been divorced from that of the Chief Minister, and the reply was that the Department of the Chief Minister did not have enough work to make it necessary for the Department of Finance to be divorced from it. It may be that one might think these Departments do not have enough work for them to be independent, but they could be assigned to us even if they are made one department. That is our request as contained in the motion - that these Departments be transferred to this Goverment. We hope that the Transkei Govemment will consult with the Republican Government and that there will be co-operation . They will see the ways and means whereby our request can be met.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : amendment?

Are you moving an

MR. RAJUILI : The unwise Chief Minister is appealing to me as if I should be as stupid as he is over the leadership of that party . The motion reads that among other things.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your amendment? This is not a debating society . MR. RAJUILI : He asks what my amendment is. Wait and listen . The motion reads : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the time has now come for the Republican Govemment to transfer the following Departments of State to the Transkei Govemment in addition to the Department of Public Health ..." This is very foolish and stupid. We have advised the Transkei Government that it was.... THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, what are you doing? MR. RAJUILI : I am debating the motion . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want your amendment.

MR. RAJUILI : I am debating the motion . THE CHIEF MINISTER: We must know what you are debating.

THE CHAIRMAN : I want to know from you, hon. member, whether you are in favour of the motion or not. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is what we want to know. He must oppose it and bring in an amendment. MR. RAJUILI: I could not support a motion which I think is unconstitutional. I should have thought that was clear. (Interjections) THE motion?

CHAIRMAN :

So

you are

opposing the

The debate was adjourned . MR. RAJUILI : I could not support a motion that is unconstitutional. AFTERNOON SESSION. THE CHAIRMAN : Are you opposing the motion or not?

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the transfer of additional State Departments to the Transkei Government was resumed.

MR. RAJUILI : I am not only opposing it, I am showing how stupid it is . (Interjections )

and hon.

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Carry on, hon . member.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the Government side generally prides itself on its respect of the Constitution of the Transkei . I doubt very much if that weak party with a weak leadership did meet to consider this motion in the manner it has come to this House. If indeed they did meet there are no worse culprits in so far as breach of this Constitution is concerned that the Govemment side.

MR. RAJUILI: We are trying to show these babies that they are not ready for any extra Departments, in addition to the Department of Health, and that the benevolent father , the Republican Govemment, was wise enough to know why it only gave them these six Departments. But because they are foolish as they are they would not take advice until they were snubbed by the Republican Government. Despite that snubbing they have not got that Department. They say " in addition to the Department

MR . E. G. SIHELE : Mr. members , I second the motion.

Chairman

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of Public Health " which they have not even got. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. RAJUILI: The hon. the Chief Minister says I am insulting the chiefs. I have not spoken to any chiefs - I am addressing the hon. members of the House, but I am addressing the hon . members on that side who are very unwise and whom I do not wish to be misled by the hon. the Chief Minister. I have not spoken to any chiefs. There are no chiefs here, only hon. members. (Interjections ) They think they can make this Assembly an Assembly of Chiefs. They are not chiefs - they are hon. members, stupid as they are. (Interjections) However, Sir, they say here "in addition to the Department of Public Health" . For goodness' sake, where is that Department? You have not got it and you will never get it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are not fit to be a Minister of Religion.

MR. RAJUILI: Fortunately I have not been struck off the roll of ministers, as he has been struck off the roll of attorneys. (Interjections) Now they have not got this Department to which they want to add more. You see how foolish they are. I must rub it in. You have not got the Department of Health but you are saying " in addition to the Department of Health " . You see we would not like to be part of this foolish thing. I will read the Constitution , sub- section 10 (2) (b)... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We know it - you can read it to the other stupid fools on that side. (Laughter)

MR . RAJUILI : It provides for the number of members of the Cabinet to be increased to not more than nine. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You don't know that one minister can hold two or three portfolios.

MR. RAJUILI : Here they want three more departments in addition to the one they have not got, so now they want ten departments which is contrary to this Constitution . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Don't you know a minister can have more than one portfolio? You are stupid.

MR. RAJUILI: You can see there is not a single sensible member in that front line. They realise they should never have brought this motion here. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , the hon. member has had too much wine today . It does not sound nice when a Minister of Religion refers to people as foolish. Every sentence he utters he says we are stupid.

MR. RAJUILI: The hon . Paramount Chief says he thinks I have taken some wine. For your information, I have never tasted wine, otherwise I would not be occupying the honourable position I have in my church. I am very proud of that. Now i will continue to advise the stupid Govemment party (Laughter) that they must not bring stupid motions to this House. They do not realise that the Republican Govemment has taken into consideration all our advice to them to refuse to hand over the Department

of Health. When the child is not wise enough to understand Part I, you cannot give that child Part 2, 3 and 4. Now the hon. the mover of the motion said we have agreed that they have succeeded in the six Departments they unfortunately have now. Probably he was intoxicated by our saying that we appreciate a little the Department of the Interior and that of Roads and Works. You know how much we are disappointed by the Department of Education where the Transkei was supposed to make a demonstration of efficiency. This Government cannot succeed in one department which we think the people are able to run properly and then they think we can be given more. We cannot do that. I have had this unfortunate experience of my son being expelled once and I cannot have that again. This irresponsible Government with a weak Department of Education seems to have mismanaged things in some schools where the students have been expelled holus-bolus . However, this Government must realise that the Republican Govemment is a very responsible Goverment. The Republican Government is aware that they are hardly running one department satisfactorily , perhaps firstly because of the inefficient personnel at the head of those departments in these ministers , so that to say here we must add three departments to a department that does not exist and to the six others and make ten is all stupid and unconstitutional. Now because the hon. the Minister of Justice does everything by hook or by crook he says we can have any number of departments under one head, but the fact is they want ten State Departments and the Constitution of the Transkei can give them at most nine . What kind of a lawyer were you ever? I am not surprised they struck you off the roll. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I suppose they understand now they should never have done this thing. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , I regret to have to rise after a Minister of Religion who belongs to a separatist church. Obviously when he served Holy

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Communion to his separatist members of the congregation he had the lion's share of the wine. (Laughter)

MR. RAJUILI : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I served no Communion anywhere yesterday. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is no point of order, Mr. Chairman. I was saying that when he served Holy Communion to his separatist members , satan did to his own following, he had the lion's share of the wine, to the extent that he forgot what his theme was but continued insulting the members of the Government side. Anyway, I for one who knew him in his school days am not surprised. At one time he left school and went home. He will know what made him leave · I will not tell you what the reason was. He may be hurt and he is my friend. His remarks are not a surprise to me. In the first place he says the motion is unconstitutional but he does not explain how it is unconstitutional . He says we want ten Departments of State . (Interjections) I would not like to say anything to hurt the feelings of the hon. member for Qaukeni and my advice to him is to shut up. Now this Minister of Religion of this separatist church has displayed some ignorance although he accuses other people of being ignorant. He does not realise that even if there are ten Departments of State the Ministers themselves could remain at the number of nine . As it is we have seven Departments of State managed

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by six Ministers , so what the hon. member says about the motion being unconstitutional only means it is unconstitutional to his own way of thinking. I mentioned last week and I will repeat that the hon. members on the Opposition side are doing what satan did when he opposed the Almighty in all he did, so in future I will attack the members across the floor as satan's Opposition.

MR. RAJUILI : Will you be the satan who is being opposed?

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now we are moving a motion in the interests of the people and they oppose it. The hon. Mr. Canca explained why it was necessary to have these Departments transferred that it was for the benefit of the people. The hon. members across the floor are always saying they are the representatives of the electorate but here they are opposing measures which are for the benefit of the people. We cannot see how they represent the electorate if they oppose measures which are for the benefit of the people. One of the Departments which we want in this motion is that of Posts and Telegraphs. Everyone knows what sort of treatment we receive in the Post Offices. Again , we want the Department of Transport and we want the Department of Information. MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Schoeman says you will never get the Department of Transport. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is the same with you. You have been told you will never get to Cape Town. If you do it will be through the back door. We know the reasons for your opposition to these requests. It is because you are against the Transkei Government and that is why you say you are opposed to all these things. My friend, the hon. member for Qaukeni , seconded Mr. Sinaba in his move for independence for the Transkei and it has always been our stand that before we can get full independence we must have all the necessary Departments of State. In asking for these Departments we are actually mounting the ladder to the goal of independence. We said we wanted to move towards ultimate independence in the Transkei gradually . We already have some of the departments and we want to add to them. No people can be given independence unless they have been trained in the management of all the State Departments in the country. First of all we must be able to manage all possible State Departments and thereafter we can ask for independence. I am no prophet and I am not going to say how long it will take to get independence. Even the hon. Mr. Sinaba has given the date - 5th May, 1967. Nobody can prophesy that at a certain stage we shall attain a degree of efficiency. It may be sooner · it may be later. It may be five years or 200 years. Where will you be? You say you will go into the Cape Town Parliament through the back door. You are always dreaming and you attribute the dreams to other people. You say we are dreamers , but we say that this is going to succeed and we will get the Departments of State that we ask for. (Interjections) If you

of these Departments you are supporting. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am supporting them all . Mr. Chairman, we appeal to the Opposition to try and assist us in matters that are of national importance. They must not oppose anything from the Government side even if it is good, just because it comes from the Government party, because they themselves would complain if we reacted similarly to them. I support the motion. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the hon . Mr. Rajuili in opposing this. The Goverment side agrees that they have no members qualified to run these Departments. They have even said that one Minister may run two State Departments . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is because we cannot have more than nine Ministers, not because we have not got the members to run these Departments. CHIEF NDAMASE : They have even stated that there are two departments under one Minister already. (Interjections) As I see things, even the Departments which are now under the Transkei Government are not being run satisfactorily. The Department of the Interior is the only one that has tabled a full report of its activities. What about the other Departments? An annual report from a department tells precisely what that department has done for the whole year and you keep telling us the reports will come. When will they come? This motion actually shows that the Department of the Interior is not carrying out its work properly. (Interjections) Why don't you ask for bus-stop shelters from the Department of the Interior instead of asking for a new department? Do you think you are able to manage better than the Republican Government? What is it you have done that is satisfactory as proof that you are capable of doing these things better than the Republican Government? Now you have not got a single African Secretary in your departments as proof that you yourselves have found out that the Bantu people are capable of running these departments . While you say that the Europeans must leave you try at the same time to retain them by a motion such as this one. Why don't you say openly that you agree with the policy of multi-racialism? (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Why didn't you chase that Communist friend of Nogcantsi away?

all you are doing. You are blocking our way so that we cannot move. All the time we hear the phrase "stupid Govemment" - and that from the lips of of stupid persons. (Laughter) I support and endorse all that my hon . friend has said. We must have all these Departments.

CHIEF NDAMASE: I don't know whether you sent him to me and would be disturbed if I sent him away. I notice you are not worried about the difficulties facing the Bantu people. This is the first thing I would like you to take note of - whether the people have enough to eat or not. The people of the Transkei are in the main a working class and you should have taken the trouble to look for a Labour Department. (Interjections ) Your interests are not concerned with the people because you are not worrying about that Department. A Labour Department would help your kinsmen to find employment. You were asked to find out about the Wage Determination Board but that has not yet been done. Did you take the trouble to appoint a commission to investigate the minimum wages in the Transkei? Yet you are looking for a Department of Information for the Transkei to give you information . The Department of Labour is a very important Department.

OPPOSITION MEMBER : I want to know which

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have the Depart-

do not like the Transkei Government, don't be stumbling blocks · don't stand in our way. That is

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: I told you we have that Department in the Department of the Interior. CHIEF NDAMASE: But the Department of the Interior is not the Department of Labour. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But they deal with labour questions. It is not necessary to have a separate department. CHIEF NDAMASE: As far as Posts and Telegraphs are concerned , you would probably like to have access to the Postal Department so that you can censor the letters . (Interjections) You already want to censor the Press. With regard to the Department of Information I think the Republican Department of Information is quite enough. You did very well in the by-elections because of the Information Officers. I do not know why you want them increased. (Laughter) I think you want bus-services so that when there are any by-elections you can control the people. That is the only thing that has urged you to introduce this motion, because you have not even got the Department of Health. This is my advice to you : You should take note of the fact that even the Departments you have are not satisfactorily run. If you had run them satisfactorily you would now have had Bantu Secretaries of the Departments so that you could pass these European Secretaries on to the new departments or, according to your policy of separate development, they should leave the service of this Government. It is a policy that encourages hatred among the different peoples of the country; a policy that has no future ; a policy that is not Christian; a policy that will teach people to take revenge. Hon . members should leave this motion alone rather than continually ask for more departments. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF NDAMASE : Will you please listen before I sit down . You are not likely to get any of these Departments. MR. Z. CHEMANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the motion and in doing so I rely on the Transkei Constitution Act. If you are not prepared to follow this Constitution, instead of being as stubborn as rocks it would be better for you to leave. Both the hon. the Minister of Religion and the member who has just sat down said some disgraceful things here - disgraceful particularly in the case of the Minister of Religion because he has come here to represent the people, whereas he is actually standing in their way. Even the electorate does not understand why they will not allow the Transkei Govemment to function properly. The Constitution which brought us here is the one thing we should follow in getting for the people what they want. In 1964 I put in a motion about the Department of Health .

MR. CHEMANE: It is coming. You are always opposed to whatever we want because you do not want the Government to succeed . What you want is multi-racialism a thing that will never be. In regard to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs I think the people outside would be surprised, owing to the hardships they suffer, if they heard the Opposition in opposing this . If we have not got this Department we cannot administer. We have no say in the running of this Department because it is under the Republican Government. I do not know what obtains in other districts , but in the Umzimkulu district we know that matters must be put right because on rainy days the people stand in a long queue while the White people have only come to buy postage stamps. Personally I think there is no complaint against the the Departments we already have because whatever we require we get. To pass on to the Department of Transport , the hon . Chief Ndamase was involved some twenty years ago in a bus-service business. He failed in that business because of his difficulties with the Department of Transport. I am surprised that he should not support the motion that the Department of Transport should be transferred to the Transkei. In my opinion they are only an aimless Opposition. Of all people, he should be the one to support any move that the people should have this Department transferred to them. We will not always depend on the White man . If we have the ability to run our own affairs , let us do so . There is continuous talk about independence . (Interjections) Before we can obtain independence we must obtain these Departments. The Republican Government is not asleep and will not deny us the things we ask for. I make an appeal to the Republican Government to give us these Departments and I hope that in the not distant future these motions will be replied to. The Republican Govemment is our parent and it wants to be a faithful parent. (Interjections ) All your fathers who speak English today were taught by the Whites. If a father sets up his son to live separately he never fails to give him oxen and equipment and all that he requires. Since the Govemment has given us the Transkei without our fighting for it, we shall get everything we ask for. At the same time we know that although the Republican Government is willing to give us these things you are opposed to it. The Republican Government will listen to our motions however , because we are in the majority. (Interjections ) Please realise on that side that if we ask anything of our father, the Republican Government, you must not be in the way. It would appear as though you people are playing marbles and the electorate does not send you to play here. We are suffering from hardships as it is. We have no proper rights and the motor cars are badly treated . We have no say in the local affairs and that is why we are asking the Republican Govemment to give us those Departments which we want. Before I sit down I want to appeal to our father, the Republican Government not to pay any heed to you because you have not been sent by the electorate butyou have come here for your own benefit and your aim is connected with Communism. (Interjections ) I think the Republican Government will give us the Departments we ask for. With those remarks I support the motion. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, you are making too many interjections and you are interrupting the speakers. MR . S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise even though I am disappointed.

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CHIEF NDAMASE : I was merely passing a comment about the report issued by the Secretary of the Department of the Interior. (Interjections) Have you taken the trouble to ask the Republican Goverment to look into the position of labour in the Transkei?

it is there.

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ments of Labour and Social Services. They are in the Department of the Interior.

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The Government party, rather than support independence, continues to deceive the people by asking for more and more departments. Why ask for more departments when you are satisfied with our position? That is what you said when you said you did not want independence and if independence is not wanted, why ask for these extra departments? I would like to know from the mover of the motion what we will get other than what we have already got if we are granted the Department of Posts and Telegraphs , for I note that the hon. the Chief Minister merely wants to add departments for certain members . He asked me why I left the Government Party without any followers. I told him to wait and see. I suppose this is one of the ways in which he hopes to keep people in his party. In the past we asked for one department and it was not granted. Why ask for some others when they have not yet been given the department they asked for before? The reason is merely to satisfy all the members on that side. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, I think the hon. members should look at section 50 of the rules, because I will use this rule very soon. Carry on. MR. SINABA: How does it happen that we should ask for more departments when we have not yet got one department that is run by an African Secretary? THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you want independence - you want all the power.

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MR. SINABA: The sum total of what I am saying is that we require at least one of those departments with a Bantu Secretary. (Interjections) When the hon. the Chief Minister says we have people who are capable on that side, we would like to see those people in place of the European Secretaries in the Departments. When we are in this Assembly we ought to speak the truth because we do not see any change yet in the running of those Departments . We will go back to the electorate after five years but things will not have changed. It is a shame that we have European Secretaries and there is not one Bantu Secretary being trained for this work. THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that?

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MR. SINABA: You haven't said there is . Let us know the facts that we may be able to tell the people. The increase in the number of departments will not set people free. It is what is being done for the people that will set them free. What we are looking for is that there should be a difference in the Departments we are now running, but there is no difference as yet. For example, the hon. the Minister of Agri culture cannot show one farm that is being run by a Bantu owner. The area from which the last speaker comes is full of European-owned farms and he has not told us what is being done by the Government. (Interjections) If we ask for branches of departments, where will those departments be? Let these Departments be run by Bantu Secretaries. Show us by appointing Bantu Secretaries to these Departments. The hon. the Chief Minister says perhaps in the year 2,000 we will have independence. These Departments are all right but let us be Secretaries and run these Departments ourselves . What we are really looking for is what is in the interests of the electorate. This motion is simply running away

of the motion should tell us is what we will have achieved when we have all these Departments . What will we get that we have not got? I would like to know before we leave this House whether, if we get the Department of Transport, we will have all the rights under that Department . Will the routes followed be our routes or will you merely put up an office of transport and the work done will be done by the Europeans as heretofore? If you can answer that to my satisfaction I will support you. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is highly probably that the hon. members on the other side think I am going to pay much

attention to what the last speaker has said . I just want to point out that the country as a whole looks upon the hon. member for Maluti as a probable patient in one of the highly honoured hospitals of the land. I do not mention the hospital because it is understood. (Laughter) He is not aware that he is talking hot air every day, to which no one in the country is listening. He is not satisfied with all the propaganda that he made in the Press without even informing his colleagues about launching a Freedom Independent Party. I will pay attention to the criticisms levelled against the Goverment side by the Opposition about the motion which is now the subject of discussion . The hon . mover of the motion has placed before this House in a reasonable , sensible manner what the feelings of the Government party are on the march towards independence. We are not as foolish as are some people in this country who will come forward and say they want "Inkululeko " . We have got to take a lesson from the other countries of the world . South Africa was first divided into four provinces which had a Legislative Assembly each. These four provinces found that the time was ripe for them to come together and form a Union of South Africa, but even during the time when South the administrators , all the Africa had all qualified persons to do technical services in the country, they did not claim independence immediately from Great Britain. South Africa had all the riches of the country to form the basis of a financially and economically viable country, but you find a man like my hon . friend from Maluti standing up early in the morning, dreaming about becoming independent in 1967. He has not even got the elementary study of South African history itself without having to compare it with the history of the world. Now in order that a country should be independent it must have had a solid foundation and have formed a Govemment that can stand on its feet in all respects . The complaint of the hon. member from Maluti is that there is no Black Secretary, as if we can manufacture a Secretary . He is not aware that in adminis, tration there is a process of training. He is not aware that in the Departments that exist at present there are certain high officials who have been withdrawn by the Republican Govemment and that the positions of those officials have been taken over by the Transkei civil servants . Probably his Communist friends in Johannesburg told him that he is the proper person to be the Prime Minister of the Transkei. I want to put it to this House that what the Government side wants is a programme of preparation for the taking over of the Departments that should form a State . We have no intention of getting rid of the White technical officials who can put us on the correct road towards self- realisation. When we say that we would like the Departments of Public Health , Transport, Posts and Telegraphs and Information , we want the officials who are in those Departments and who belong to the Republican Goverment transferred to the Transkei Government as seconded officials. We know that that

from the desire for independence. What the mover -212-

is not going to be done within a month as the hon. member would like to see himself a President of the Transkeian Republic in 1967. We know that there will be a period of preparation which may take one, two or three or more years , but we want the Republican Government to understand the feelings of the Transkei people , that they would like to march towards self-realisation . We are quite aware that we would like to have White medical practitioners for quite a long time. We are quite aware that we would like to have technicians in the Department of Transport. The same awareness is understood in so far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is concemed, but there is nothing to stop the Republican Government from placing these portfolios under the Transkei Govemment. In any event we leave it to the Republican Govemment who so benevolently agreed that the Transkei should have self-government to co-operate with us in that respect. The attitude of the Opposition is most strange not only to this side of the House but to the country as a whole. It would appear that in so far as they are concerned they cannot appreciate seeing the African people handling their own affairs . As a matter of fact their attitude is that things should have remained as they were before 1963. They would like to live as tenants in their own country all the time. They have even opposed the zoning of the towns which enables our people to purchase property in the towns. They have even opposed the handing over of the land to the original owners , so nobody can take them seriously because everyone knows that we are sent here to represent the interests of the people but instead they are representing themselves. In any event judgement will be given against them in 1968. Mr. Chairman, I want to assure the hon . member for Maluti that he is now being regarded as a big doll . His very friend, the Daily Dispatch , now regards him as a man who is going to form the Department of Labour in the Transkei , but if he wanted to be Minister of Labour he should have remained on this side of the House and we should have spoken to the Minister of the Interior to give him a portfolio. (Interjections) He thinks that anybody is taking him seriously but even the P.A.C. , whose views he wants to place before this House , do not have the attitude that he has . In any event, I do not think that the House will take him very seriously . He is a very big joke in the land . I would request the hon . members across the floor to consider the interests of the people rather than considering their own interests . They probably think that we want an increment of portfolios because we would like to increase the number of Cabinet Ministers . (Interjections) We are placing the interests of the country first. The mover of the motion has told this House about the treatment of our people at the post offices and we feel that a situation of that kind can be rectified by placing these Departments under the Transkei Govemment. (Interjections) I would appeal to the hon . members across the floor to be serious when they come to this House. The country is watching them and they are drawing up an indictment against each and every one of them. The people know that the members across the floor have no interest in the Bantu people of the Transkei . They are fighting for White domination which can only exist under a multi- racial state.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , one really is surprised at the Government members who come to this House and move such a motion as has been moved by the hon . Mr. Canca today. If we were to move an amendment to this

motion we would indicate quite clearly that this Govemment has failed even to run the Departments that have been handed over to them adequately . I think this Government should realise that before it can walk it must first learn to stand; and before they can ask for more departments they must prove themselves able to run the Departments which have already been handed over to them. I want to ask the Government this question : If indeed they were to be given these extra Departments , where will they draw the personnel to form the ministry to run these Departments? As things are, there is really nothing to write home about the Ministers who are holding the Departments that have been handed over to this Government. (Laughter) We have had no end of trouble from them. They have been irresponsible over cars, like children who will break up cars to see how they work.

: THE CHIEF MINISTER: drive cars .

The Ministers don't

MR. GUZANA: They have failed to discharge their duties as Ministers of State and if anything they have brought discredit to this Government. If there is any sense in what they have done it has been infused into them by theOpposition. (Laughter) How can you let these babies have more departments? How can you agitate for more departments when you have not proved yourselves in these Departments that have been handed over? When I speak in this way quite a number of the Ministers have their consciences pricking them, but I shall not name them now. They know themselves . (Laughter) One wonders what prompted the hon . member to bring a motion of this nature before the House. I look around to see who will be the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs; I look around to find out the Minister of Transport; I look around to see the man who might qualify as Minister of Information and I must drop my head in shame for lack of quality and material in the Govemment. (Laughter) There is a cry made by the Government members to the effect that they are seeking to further the interests of the people by asking for these various departments . To what extent have they looked after the interests of the people in respect of the Departments they already hold?

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THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You object to rehabilitation.

& MR. GUZANA: The trouble with you is that w. you go into the country you speak of rehabilitation and if people do not accept rehabilitation you fold your arms . One wonders when you will understand that putting up a Samson windmill for the people to draw water is a service to the people for rehabilitation. You were asked for sources of supply of pedigree fowls but, like the irresponsible Minister you are, you referred them to the Farmers ' Weekly. When are you going to start making available to the people the different breeds in the Transkei if you want to improve animal husbandry and the grade of stock that is reared by the people , without necessarily pushing people into rehabilitation? When are you going to make it possible for people to buy fruit trees without necessarily accepting rehabilitation? The trouble is that you are too hidebound to see anything outside rehabilitation.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you talking about now? Come back to the motion. MR. GUZANA: That is one of my indictments

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against this Goverment · that it is unable to run anything that is handed over to it and it should not be given more. I get the impression of little piglets playing in a small muddy area and asking for some more mud to play in. (Laughter) Let us look at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. The argument has been brought before this House by the hon. mover of the motion to the effect that Africans crowd out the post offices made available to them , and that is his gravamen of argument in favour of this Department being handed over. I suppose to solve that problem when this Department is handed over you will then tell the people not to come to the post offices. Not so long ago we moved a motion and it was unanimously accepted by this House requesting the Republican Government to extend postal facilities to the people of the Transkei. If only this Government had followed that recommendation the problem would have been solved, but to ask for Posts and Telegraphs - do you know what is involved? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: We know.

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MR. GUZANA: Do you know that the security of the State is involved in that Department? Are you going to have a Proclamation 400 to control Posts and Telegraphs? (Laughter) The whole thing looks ridiculous because security is the responsibility of the Republican Government and you want them to hand over that very important Department to you babies.

the Department of Information · what are you going to do with that? What information do you have to pass on to the people? You have the publication of the Department of Agriculture · that is about all you have. Tell me what you are going to tell the people under the Department of Information? What have you done? THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are going to tell them that you are communistically inclined. MR. GUZANA: If you tell them that we are going to tell them that you voted for me to be here so that you must be the master Communist. (Laughter) Before you think of letting the people know something you must have something to tell them. If you want to tell the people about separate development the Department of Information for the Republican Govemment can do that quite adequately, and if you should interfere you will be making a mess of things and I sometimes wonder how often you have to be reprimanded for opening your mouths too wide. (Laughter) I suggest that the Department of Information would be too dangerous for this Government one year after it has been given that Department. And this is described as a march towards independence. What march? Are you going forward? Are you marking time? Are you retracing your steps? GOVERNMENT time.

MEMBERS:

You

are wasting

MR. GUZANA: You speak of wasting time, but you are speaking about independence and doing nothing about it. Yes, a march towards independence ! Don't you realise that you are entangling your own selves in asking for more than you can chew? Don't you see that you are overleaping the bounds of reason? Before you can ask for anything more you must ask the Opposition to give you a clearance certificate to ask for more. (Laughter) We do feel that this Government is getting swollen-headed. You think you are efficient - let us tell you that you are not efficient. You are exaggerating your own importance. You are no more than little boys playing with marbles and we want to advise you that it is not in the interests of the people to have these Departments transferred to this Govemment.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You speak like a black Englishman. MR . GUZANA: The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is also responsible for intercommunication between towns, between countries , between South Africa and other countries. I suppose what you want is to send a cable to Kosygin in Russia about control in the Transkei . You see, there is so much involved in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs that a baby cannot ask for it.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We know that.

MR. GUZANA: To me it sounds like a baby refusing a toy gun and asking to handle a machine gun. You had better reduce your aspirations to size. You do not know what to do with the present Departments . Do not ask for more.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You talk like a slave.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Did you consult the people on that? MR. this?

GUZANA: Whom did you consult about

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people. MR. GUZANA: You know, the slave mentality is a very queer type. He thinks he can do more than he is capable of doing and when he is given it to do he asks the seconded officials of the Republican Govemment to come and do it. That is the slave mentality. I do not know who is betraying it at the present moment. (Laughter) Now you speak of a Department of Transport . Transport where · with a sledge? You have no control of the main roads that go through the Transkei . I am thinking of buses along the national road. Are you going to control that? Do you know how to manage it? Do you know where they make buses? Where do you train personnel to service those buses? You were told not so long ago that the money raised in the Transkei would not be sufficient to buy one aeroplane and you want transport in those circumstances ! I would ask you to trim yourselves down to size and know who you are. I need not say anything more about that. Now

MR . GUZANA: Your people are the chiefs you consult in your caucus and not the people in the districts. If you tell the people that you want the Department of Information they will ask you : What information? I put it to this House that it should not commit suicide . You are well advised to vote against this motion. You have failed even to train Africans sufficiently to take over even the less important posts in the Departments that are now under this Government, and to say that the illtreatment of the people at the post offices will end when the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is handed over to you is to speak utter nonsense because some of the post offices that serve Africans are manned by Africans, and you are complaining under that arrangement. Indeed you are indicting your own people, therefore how are you

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going to solve the problem? Are you going to get a seconded official in Nobantu to serve the Africans? I feel the whole argument advanced by the Govemment side is ridiculous .

as read and confirmed. QUESTIONS.

QUESTION 54: THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are talking nonsense. We want Africans to take these positions.

Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Education :(a) "What are the names of teachers who have recently been transferred from Willowvale to other districts?

MR. GUZANA: But you have not trained them and I have found the word "nonsense" only in the dictionary of fools . THE MINISTER dictionary you use?

OF

JUSTICE: Is that the

MR. GUZANA: I have taken it from the dictionary of the Chief Minister. (Laughter) Please save your Government from this motion. If you vote for this motion you will be committing suicide and I warn you against behaving irresponsibly to the discredit, not only of this Govemment, but unfortunately to the discredit of the Opposition . What will the world and what will the Republican Government say if such a motion were to go through this House when there is such a responsible Opposition? (Laughter) It is aware of its babies which it is wet-nursing, but there is the Opposition which is standing on its own and we hope the Opposition is going to be able to drum some sense into the Government.

MR.

M.H.

CANCA:

Mr.

Chairman

(b) Was it in the interest of the Department or the public that these teachers were transferred? (c) If it was in the interest of the Department may this House know the actual reasons , in each case, which led to the transfer? (d) About these transfers , were regional authorities and school committees, to which these teachers were transferred, consulted? If not, why not?" REPLY: (a ) Mr. A.R. Qavane, Mr. K. Malgas, Mr. S. Mnqeta, Mr. D. de V.D. Maja , Mr. L.T. Njilo and Mr. J. Ziki. (b) Yes.

and hon.

members , I shall not take too much time in replying to this debate . It is as clear as daylight that the Opposition are standing in support of us because they have nothing to say against this motion. I am quite sure that even the members in the galleries are looking at them in surprise when they hear them say these things in regard to the motion . The last speaker said we have previously asked for extended

(c) Any teacher in the employ of the Department is liable to be transferred whenever the public interest or the interest of the Department so requires , irrespective of whether or not such transfer is to a post of lower grade. The teacher is protected in that no transfer involving a reduction in his emoluments can be made without his consent unless his transfer is the result of misconduct, the abolition of his post or because of his inefficiency to fill the post he holds . It should be obvious that in transferring a teacher on the grounds of Departmental or public interest, it will not always be in the interest of the Department , the public or the teacher to disclose the reasons for such a transfer and I do not propose to do so in this instance.

privileges in the post office services but he says that up to now nothing has been done. Let it be clear to him that what we are trying to do is to try and get privileges for the people of the Transkei. We can do nothing in regard to the Departments that are not under our control . I would like this whole House to take note that these people are not true representatives of their people. This is one motion in which we would like a division so that the people will be fully aware of where they stand and what sort of people are representing them. Indeed we are aware that the Opposition is very keen to retain the Europeans' services. (Interjections) Let the Opposition realise that this side of the House stands to work for the people of the Transkei .

(d) No. This was not considered necessary or advisable for reasons as outlined in the concluding paragraph of (c) above.

QUESTION 55:

The motion was carried by 46 votes to 32. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just want to announce that tomorrow morning I will move that the House suspend the rules so that it be afforded an opportunity to discuss the Report of the Public Service Commission , 1965 . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 24th May, 1966.

Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Education :(a) "What are regulations gove ming the Transkei Govemment Teachers Pension Fund? (b) Are teachers already contributing to their pension fund? If so, how? (c) Were teachers made aware of the Pension Fund regulations?

TUESDAY, 24TH MAY, 1966 .

(d) Since there are employees of the Transkei Education Department who served both under the Cape Provincial Administration and the Republic of South Africa, what is the position in regard to their pension?

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken

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2. How many lower primary schools are there in:(a) the Matatiele district? (b) the Mount Fletcher district?

(e) Is it true that with those who served under the Cape Provincial Administration , there is no provision of their pensions or contributions being paid to them on being discharged or when they die to their dependants?

REPLY : ... ... ... ... ... ...

1 4 37 31

88888

1. (a) (i) (ii) (b) (i) (ii) (c) (i) (ii)

( f) If not, what is the Transkei Govemment doing to remedy this cruel and inhumane practice, which obviously does not apply to White civil servants? "

86 68

REPLY :

2. (a) ....... (b) .......

The whole of this question should be referred to the Minister of the Interior whose Department is responsible for pension matters.

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QUESTION 58: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"(a) (i) How many plantations are there in the Matatiele district?

QUESTION 56: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Education:"How many Higher Primary Schools are there in the Maluti Region in:(a) the Matatiele district? (b) the Mount Fletcher district? (c) Of these how many in each district have as vemacular (i) Xhosa only (ii) Sotho only (iii ) both vernaculars in one school? (d) How many have Std. VI under (a) and (b)? (e) (i ) How many pupils sat for the Std. VI examination in Mount Fletcher schools?

(ii) Name them and state where plantations are situated.

such

(b) How many plantations are in the Mount Fletcher district? (c) (i) What is the total number of plantations in the Transkei? (ii) What percentage of the Transkei land is covered by plantations? (iii) How much land area will be covered by any envisaged plantations, if any?

(ii) Of these how many have passed? (iii ) How many pupils sat for the Std. VI examinations in Matatiele schools? (iv) Of these how many have passed?"

(d) (i) How many woodlots are there in Matatiele district? (ii) Give names or places where these situated. (iii) How many woodlots are there in Mount Fletcher district? (iv) Give names and state where these situated. "

REPLY : The figures quoted are in respect of schools which offer higher primary education, whether or not they are combined with lower primary sections.

the are the are

REPLY:

(e) (i) (ii) (ii ) (iv)

(a) (i) Four. (ii ) Makoba, Sibi, Mpharane and Mvenyane plantations, situated on Rochdale farm , Sibi's administrative area No. 4, Nkau administrative Area No. 14 and Kaka's administrative area No. 21 respectively.

Mount Fletcher. 16 132

(a) 65. (b) 50. Matatiele. (c) (i) ............ 38 (ii ) ............ 3 (iii). ..... 24 (d) ............. 39

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(b) Three.

536. 240. 761 . 380.

(c) (i) 108. (ii) 1.2 per cent. (iii) Approximately 44,000 acres.

QUESTION 57: (d) (i) Nine. (ii) Khoapa, Masakala, Ncanywa, Mtolo , Lupindo, Bubesi , Mgubo, Diabo, Black Diamond. (iii) Eight. (iv) Upper Tsitsana , Lower Tsitsana, Ulundi , Nxotshana, Labase, Tinana , Esilindini , Emtumase.

Rev. B.S. Rajui li asked the Minister of Education:1. (a)"How many secondary schools are there:(i) In the Mt. Fletcher district? (ii) in the Matatiele district?

(b) How many pupils sat for the Junior Certificate examinations in Mt. Fletcher?

QUESTION 59:

How many passed (clean pass)?

(c) How many pupils sat for the Junior Certificate examination in the Matatiele Secondary schools? How many passed (clean pass)? -216-

Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) How many head of cattle were introduced into the Transkei during the years 1964 and 1965 and during the first four (4)

designed to meet any need as and when it arises?"

months of 1966? (b) How many head of cattle left the Transkei during the years 1964 and 1965 and during the first four (4) months of 1966? "

REPLY :

(a) Any newly-registered secondary and high school or any secondary and high school that wishes to introduce a new, or change an existing course or subject must first apply for approval to do so to the profes-

REPLY:

Cattle imported: 1964 Total 7,731 Total 11,885 1965 : First 4 months of 1966

Total 6,108

Cattle exported : 1964 : Total 8,512 Total 12,217 1965 : First 4 months of 1966 :

Total 6,244

sional section of the Department, through its local Circuit Inspector, who , in turn , submits to the Department his own recommendation or not. Final approval is given by the Department. Variety of course and/or optional subject depend upon (i) available and suitably qualified staff, (ii) available classroom accommodation,

QUESTION 60: Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:(a) "What provision does the Minister and his Department make where the available arable land as well as the residential area is unable to absorb all the qualified taxpayers , to place such surplus taxpayers in ownership of kraal- sites as well as arable allotments?

(iii) available equipment, laboratory, etc., (iv) the number of pupils at a school who wish to take the course and/or optional subjects.

(b) (i) Recommendations are made for the appointment of Vice-Principals and Principals at a conference of all Circuit Inspectors for submission to School Committees and Regional Authorities as a guide only. (ii) School committees and regional authorities make recommendations for the appointment of assistants. In both instances the recommendations of school

(b) When an area is being reclaimed/rehabilitated, how does the Minister and his Department provide for unmarried boys and girls to be able to acquire kraal sites as well as arable allotments in event of such boys and girls qualifying through marriage to establish their own homes and acquire their own arable land."

committees and regional authorities are considered and, where necessary, the Department also consults with its professional officers before a fina! decision is made. Final approval is given by the Minister.

REPLY: unplanned areas the Department of Agriculture and Forestry plays no part in the provision of arable allotments and residential sites. It is the function of the Department of Interior.

(a) In

(c) (i) By the creation of more bursaries for graduates and for post- matriculants who wish to qualify for the S.A.T. Diploma at Fort Hare. (ii) By the proposed establishment of a full-time refresher school , probably to commence operating in January, 1967.

(b) In planned areas the same applies , but the Department of Agriculture and Forestry in planning a location , provides for the settlement by the Department of Interior, of the maximum number of people on an agricultural basis. Over and above this provision is made for residential sites as the population increases .

QUESTION 62: Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Education:(a) "What are the minimum academic qualifications required in respect of teachers who serve onthe staffs of the Transkei secondary and high schools?

QUESTION 61: Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Education:"What nature of control is exercised over (a) Transkei secondary and high schools to the end that the courses of study offered at these schools shall always comprise a genuinely balanced variety capable of ensuring that our children will be prepared academically for undertaking all types of careers in adult life? (b) Selection and appointment of suitably qualified teachers who should give instructions in these courses?

(b) Have these prescribed criteria been observed at all times when appointments are made and if not, on what grounds have departures therefrom been found justifiable? (c) Will the honourable Minister furnish this Assembly with statistics reflecting the state of the service in respect of the academic qualifications of teachers presently in service at all the said secondary and high schools?" REPLY : (a) A university degree plus a teaching certificate.

(c) Steps taken to ensure that there will be continuous availability of a teaching force whose qualifications have been specially

(b) (i) Yes, as far as possible .

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QUESTION 64: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Education:(a) (i ) How many teachers are there in all the Maluti region schools? (ii) What is the number of pupils in these secondary schools? (iii) How many teachers who serve in these secondary schools hold University degree certificates? (iv) How many are under-graduates? (v) How many do not have matric certifi-

(ii) Owing, however, to the shortage of graduates, matriculants who possess a teaching certificate have, of necessity , to be employed. In a few instances , teachers holding a Junior Certificate plus a teaching certificate have had to be used when no graduate or matriculant has been available. (iii) When the courses offered by graduates have not fitted in to the curriculum of the school concerned.

cates , if any? (iv) When the antagonism of a school committee and/or community towards a (b) (i) Of all the secondary and high training schools in the Transkei how many teachers hold university degree certificates?

particular teacher is so great that such an appointment will bring disharmony into the relationship between school and community.

such graduate (ii) What percentage do teachers make of the total number of Transkei teachers?

(c) As the Department is still compiling the statistical retums , this question will be answered on Tuesday, 7th June, 1966.

REPLY :

QUESTION 63: Mr. K.M.N. Guzana asked the Minister of Education:Arising out of the reply to Question 37, will the

(a) (i) 507 (including schools) (ii) 703 (iii) 9 (iv) 5 1 (v)

honourable Minister of Education clearly define what factors are taken into account before the Department "is satisfied that the continued employment of a teacher in a permanent capacity is not in the interests of the service " excluding those reasons and factors which can be given to the teacher as reasons for terminating his employment on three months notice.

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(b) (i) 136 (ii) 2.6 per cent. DISCUSSION OF TRANSKEIAN PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION REPORT.

REPLY :

A teacher who is an employee of the Department has the right to terminate his services with notice of 3 months without giving reasons for doing so. In the same way, the employer has the right to terminate a teacher's services under the same conditions. This method of termination is not peculiar to the Transkei Education Department as it is employed by not only other education departments but by employers in private concems and in all other walks of life.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House suspend the rules of the House in order to afford the members an opportunity to discuss the report of the Public Service Commission , 1965 , and that ten minutes be allowed to each speaker . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr. Chairman .

Agreed to. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply to Question 63 I would like the hon. the Minister of Education to elabcrate as to whether it is the coming way of disposing of teachers - this way of saying that the Govemment can dispost of a teacher without specifying any reasons , because formerly during the.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are discussing now. Put the question and do not discuss .

2 MR. NOGCANTSI: Don't be silly. Under the old regime it was not the condition... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It was the condition. MR. NOGCANTSI : This came with the advent of Bantu education . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the answer is explicit and needs no further explanation . If the employee has a right to give notice of three months without giving reasons, similarly the employer has a similar right.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I merely moved this motion in order to afford the Opposition members an opportunity to express their feelings with regard to the report of the Public Service Commission, as a result of a request which was placed before this House by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition that as the report was tabled after the Chief Minister had delivered his policy speech the House should be afforded an opportunity to discuss the report. As far as I am concemed , I have nothing to discuss in so far as the report is concerned . MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, may I draw the attention of the Assembly to page 8 of the report under the heading "Rejection of a Recommendation of the Commission ". There is something here which does not satisfy the Opposition of this House , and when the hon . the Chief Minister introduced a Bill yesterday which referred to the relationship between this Commission and the Govemment it gave us the impression that it was the desire of the hon. the Chief Minister to bring in this Bill to enable him to override the recommendations of the Commission . There is a

schools. matter here referring to Mr. S.W. Mbanga who should have been appointed to a post of sub-inspector. It was required that the applicant should have (1 ) a recognised university degree; (2) a teacher's certificate; and (3) at least five years' experience as a teacher in post-primary schools . It happened that Mr. Mbanga did not have the third requirement for appointment to this post and the Commission did not find it possible therefore to appoint Mr. Mbanga to this particular post. It became evident however that the Cabinet wished Mr. Mbanga to be appointed to this post. This is very similar to a situation in the Republican Government when the Government wishes to make an appointment according to their own preference and so it is evident that the son of the Republican Government is following in the steps of its father, because this particular applicant is a friend of the Chief Minister and on that account it was found that Mr. Mbanga should find a post at all costs because he is a friend of the Chief Minister. In view of the fact that the recommendation could not be carried out it was recommended in paragraph 48 that Mr. Mbanga be given a special salary . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who recommends that? MR. MPONDO: We notice that Mr. Mbanga is being groomed for the post that was set aside for Mr. Ndamse. (Interjections). This makes it very evident that the corruption in the Department of Education is being directed by the hon. the Chief Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. member is not entitled to use the term " corruption ". I want to state that it is a gross insult to the personnel of the Department of Education and therefore he should withdraw that remark. MR. MPONDO: To tell the truth, the Department of Education .... THE remark?

CHAIRMAN :

Are you

withdrawing that

MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , I was not going to be told by the Chief Minister to withdraw. I expect the Chairman to tell me to withdraw. THE CHAIRMAN : Withdraw, then . MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , I withdraw. When the needle is pushed into you you cannot but show that it is pricking, especially when the truth is being laid bare. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am sorry that such unworthy imputations have been made by the last speaker. The position is quite a common situation everywhere . I remember when the late Mr. Marambana was appointed a D.V.T. the requirements were that the incumbent to the post should have a primary higher certificate . Mr. Marambana was a very efficient teacher but he had no primary higher certificate. The Cape Education Department awarded him that certificate because he had been an able teacher for some time and would not go back to school again to take his P.H. Mr. Mbanga has been a supervisor for some time now and it is not true to say he has never taught in a Post-primary school. I would like the hon. member to listen. He must not make imputations about the situation . I say Mr. Mbanga did teach in post- primary

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Name one. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: At Lamplough. Are we to penalise a man who has completed four years when he has only to teach five years? (Interjections) What is more, the Republican Govemment in its Bantu Education was wooing Mr. Mbanga to work in the same position. Had he been refused this position he would have been taken over by the Republican Govemment. The stipulations of the Public Service Commission will come in time but adjustments must be made for those who are in the field already . We cannot penalise our best men . No sooner had Mr. Mbanga been accepted for this post than he was offered a scholarship to go and study in England, and today I have heard for the first time that he has been groomed for a certain position. (Interjections). Worthless people will always impute unworthy motives. MR . T.H. BUBU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to draw the attention of the House to paragraph 49 of the report. The Commission is there drawing our attention to the existence of a provision for a variation in connection with the work that the Commission has to do. The particular sentence reads as follows : "No notice was, however, given to the Commission in terms of section 7 (5) of the said Proclamation of the Department's intention to apply to the Cabinet for rejection or variation of the Commission's recommendation . " Now in this con-

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nection we would like to know why this notice was not given and I think it is also proper that I should read the relevant section in the Proclamation. Section 7 (5) reads as follows : "No application for the rejection or variation of a recommendation shall be made to the Cabinet unless the Department concemed has given the Commission at least fourteen days' notice of its intention so to apply, and such notice shall set forth the grounds upon which the Department intends basing the application. " Now, as I have said, Mr. Chairman, it is very clear that there are certain steps that must be followed by the Department when they want to vary an application. These steps were not taken by the Department and, seeing that the Commission has drawn out attention to this anomaly, it can be seen readily that the Department wanted to evade the issue . This notice is supposed to set out the reasons for the variation . Why did the Department decide to refrain from giving such reasons? Are we not therefore going to be right in making imputations? We would like the hon. Minister to give us some explanation in this connection. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, before I move that this debate be closed I just want to make certain observations with regard to the remarks made by the hon . members across the floor who have just spoken on this particular section of the report. It is most surprising that certain imputations on this matter should be made by the hon. member for Fingoland, Mr. Mpondo. The language that he used depicts the very character of the person who has made these imputations, and I will just treat the remarks he has made with the contempt they deserve . I just want to make it clear to the members of the Opposition that the Public Service Commission does not employ the servants of the Govemment. The legal body that employs the servants of the Govemment is the Cabinet. What the Public Service Commission does is to recommend to the Government who should be

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member of the Opposition and then the Chief Minister may reply.

employed. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Who does the appointing?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is the difference between appointment and employment?

MR. RAJUILI: It is true , Mr. Chairman , that we have hardly been given a chance to go into this thoroughly. This is a very important report. Last year we were not given an opportunity to discuss the

MR. RAJUILI : There is a big difference. One person appoints, another one employs.

report. You will see how important it is , more so ...

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You will have to go to school and leam English. Whether you like it or not, the legal position is that the Govemment employs its servants and of course it acts on the recommendations of the Public Service Commission. This is not a new thing which is peculiar to the Transkei Govemment only. It is a constitutional position which obtains in all govemments.

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MR. C.S. MDA: But the gravemen of our argument is that according to the report the Department gave no notice to the Commission of its intention to apply to the Cabinet. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Department of Education had an argument with the Public Service Commission on the required qualifications for quite a long time before this matter came up which is now before the House. THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, please. There is something I don't quite understand. We are on Item 5 and you moved Item 5 and the whole House agreed. I will give you a chance to reply later. THE CHIEF MINISTER: If that is the case I will bow to your ruling and stop replying to these members , and I will move that the debate be closed. THE CHAIRMAN: Before you do that I would like the hon. the Minister of Education to answer the hon. member if he feels he can answer the question . THE CHIEF MINISTER: But , Mr. Chairman, do you feel I am not competent to reply to the question put by the hon. member? I stood up to reply to it and said I would do that before I close the debate.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are not discussing the report - you are swearing at the Cabinet. MR . RAJUILI : The importance of this report is that you will find that the Public Service Commission is reporting to this Legislative Assembly their dissatisfaction in the relationship between itself and the Cabinet. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, you have given a ruling that you would give an opportunity to one speaker to discuss the report on that side and then the mover should reply. I would like to know if the hon. member for Maluti is now taking his chance as the last speaker on that side in compliance with your ruling. MR. RAJUILI: I am not discussing the report yet. What I am pointing out is that this side of the House has put a pertinent question . THE CHAIRMAN : You had better discuss the report. MR. RAJUILI : That is part of the contention in this report and it has to be replied to , but instead of that a guillotine motion came forward and that is what made me get up. Mr. Mganga's position is not the only point we want to bring out. There are quite a number of points we want to discuss. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are not discussing. You are insulting the Ministers and the Government. THE CHAIRMAN: You must discuss , or else you must sit down. MR . L.A. LUWACA : We want to know how many speakers you are allowing us.

THE CHAIRMAN: You will have the last chance. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the hon. member should put this in the form of a question for Tuesday. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No! MR. MDA: This report is under discussion and the questions asked here should be answered here. THE CHAIRMAN : I cannot force him to answer the questions . It has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister that this debate be closed . MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I am very sorry that when the House , at the request of the hon . the Chief Minister , for the first time gets such an important report it should find itself in the position of being shouted down, in the middle of the discussion, when hardly more than two speakers have gone into this report in which the Opposition in particular was given a chance to look through it. THE CHAIRMAN : I will give a chance to one

THE please.

CHAIRMAN :

One .

(Interjections) Order,

MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, paragraph 52 of the report makes us realise that qualifications here were not the important thing. I do not know what insults were hurled at the Ministers , as the hon. the Chief Minister has accused us, because this paragraph makes it clear . . . . THE CHAIRMAN : Just a moment, hon. member. You do not read your Gazette. It is rule 41. Carry on. MR. RAJUILI : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. Yesterday I made remarks about the Public Service Commission and what we were told about its status when it was constituted in words that the hon. the Chief Minister used a year ago and he confirmed that. We were under the impression that the Public Service Commission is above anything like influences or policies of the Government and the personnel of the of the parliamentary political leaders in these departments. But there can be no running from away the fact that in this paragraph the rejection of the Com-

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mission's recommendation betrays that the Commission has not been treated well at all by the Government of the Transkei. According to this report the Cabinet definitely has gone outside its powers to interfere with the work of the Public Service Commission. It is with regret that I have to say now that the Commission is reporting this Cabinet to the Legislative Assembly. The Cabinet does not realise that they are responsible to this Assembly for their activities. If the Cabinet continues doing this sort of thing to the Public Service Commission it appears now as if the Cabinet is the Public Service Commission and that the hon. the Chief Minister was not telling us the truth of what he said in 1964, and his reply yesterday was hypocritical. We condemn the action of the Cabinet in no uncertain terms. It is clear that when an individual is favoured by any of the Cabinet Ministers the Public Service Commission will be forced to appoint that person irrespective of whether or not he is qualified , as is the case here. I say this is a black mark against the first Bantustan in the form of this decision by the Cabinet. The applicant concerned here is not qualified and he should never have been appointed. In spite of what the hon. the Minister of Education was trying to say, this was not the only person in the Transkei and according to this report he does not even meet the qualifications. It betrays the Minister of Education that he favoured people for ulterior motives.

GOVERNMENT MEMBER: What motives? MR. RAJUILI: One hon Minister says : What motives? It is a sinister motive . The fact that the hon. Minister cannot reply to a pertinent question from this side of the House shows that the motive cannot be good. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I was interrupted I was trying to show the hon. members across the floor that it was not the Public Service Commission that employs the servants of the Government. The Commission makes recommendations to the particular department concerned and every such recommentation must be approved by the Minister before being put into effect. Should a Minister not be in agreement with the Commission's recommendations and the Commission is not prepared to vary such recommendations, the Minister submits the matter to the Cabinet, which is the employing body, for a final decision. Now the wrong impression created by the members ac.oss the floor is that it is the Commission which employs the servants of the Government. In this particular case the Cabinet went thoroughly into the pros and cons of the matter. The Education Department maintained that it was not necessary for any person to have the experience which is required by the Commission in order to be promoted to the post of sub-inspector, as they were called at the time. Now that was a professional body which had for a long time dealt with the teaching profession , and the Cabinet could not take the views of such a professional body lightly and of the candidates that were before the Government Mt. Mbanga was the best of them all. Mr. Mbanga had acted for a long time as a sub-inspector and you maintain that the Department of Education should override and go over a person who had been recognised as the most efficient of all the men who were in the field at the time.

putting forward the decision of the Cabinet. I am speaking for the decision of the Cabinet which has been challenged. In fact nasty words have been said against the Cabinet by members across the floor. I am trying to show that as far as the Government is concemed we weighed the facts of the case and you are not going to tell us we are fools when we did that. In any event I want to show the House that the Government acts reasonably and in the interests of the State. None of those on this side of the House are related to Mr. Mbanga in any way. None ofus are friends of Mr. Mbanga , as imputed by members of the other side.

MR. RAJUILI: I would like the hon. the Chief Minister to explain this because the Constitution says, in regard to the powers and duties of the Commission relating to appointments, that the Commission has to appoint and the hon. Minister is telling us that they do not appoint, yet that is embodied in the Constitution. They also control discipline. Now you have skipped that aspect in your discussion , but the Department has violated a regulation . Section 62 of the Constitution reads: ". . . with such powers and duties relating to the appointment, conditions of service, discipline. . ." and so on. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I do not think the hon. member's English is quite up to the mark. There is nothing in this section which says that the Public Service Commission shall appoint members of the staff. It merely says there shall be a Public Service Commission for the Transkei consisting of three persons to be appointed by the Cabinet with such powers and duties relating to the appointment, etc. , and not with powers to appoint. I have often told the hon. members on the other side that the Public Service Commission is not the employing body. That must be understood. It is the Cabinet that employs the servants of the State, acting on the recommendation of the Commission. It does not mean that the Cabinet is compelled to accept the recommendations of the Commission, otherwise it would not be the employing body. (Interjections) In dealing with these matters the Government acts reasonably in the interests of the State. In this particular case we had to consider the recommendations of the Public Service Commission as against the objections of the Department of Education. MR. BUBU: But did you ascertain that the Department had followed the correct procedure? THE CHIEF MINISTER: In considering all the aspects of the matter we found that Mr. Mbanga was the best of all the applicants. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think I have replied to the hon. members across the floor. (Interjections)

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: You have not. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I move that the debate be closed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think you need worry about moving it because I am closing it anyway.

MR. T.H. BUBU: Then why did the Department not give the Commission notice setting out the reasons for this decision? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that I am

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AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

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Clauses 2 to 6 put and agreed to.

TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE .

The whole Bill put and agreed to by 54 votes to

34.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider the Bill to amend the Public Service Commission Proclamation.

House Resumed .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I second.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Government Service Amendment Bill has been accepted by the committee without amendment.

Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the third reading will take place tomorrow morning.

House in Committee . On Clause 1

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MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we would like to amend this section by deleting the words "after consultation with every department concemed" and substituting therefor " after every department concemed has made representations to it". In moving this amendment we wish to try and clear a situation which we think so ambiguous that the Public Service Commission and the departments concerned end in a situation such as we have found before us today. The explanations from the hon. the Chief Minister yesterday did not satisfy us. I will not waste your time in going over yesterday's explanations of obligations that are unnecessary on the part of the Public Service Commission to the Department concerned and so on. That is the amendment which we wish to be effected in section 1 of this Bill. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . member, I would like to draw your attention to rule 108 which reads thus: "A member desiring to have a proposed amendment to a bill placed on the order paper shall hand it to the Secretary not later than 4 p.m. on the day before that on which it is so to appear. " So I think the amendment is out of order.

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I would like the mover of this Bill to motivate on this phrase " and other qualifications to be possessed by persons on appointment" , because as far as I am concerned this phrase "other qualifications" is ambiguous because all the required qualifications have been specified, such as age, educational, language, and in the light of what has taken place this moming this phrase "other qualifications " may imply political qualifications. I would like this then, the "other qualifications ", apart from the qualifications that have been mentioned to be elaborated upon, because apparently it means qualifications relating to nepotism or favouritism being taken into consideration.

While holding the floor, Mr. Chairman, before we go on with the next item, I just want to take this opportunity to report to you that one of the members of this House who has been in hospital several weeks, since the session started, is back with us. I refer to the hon. Chief Magadla from Maluti. We are very happy that the Almighty God has spared his life and that he is able to join us in the deliberations of this House once again.

TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members : The Transkei Constitution Act (Act No. 48 of 1963) provided in section 10 for a Cabinet consisting of the Chief Minister and five other Ministers. In part A ofthe first schedule the Government Departments for which the Ministers were to assume responsibility were set out. The Department of Education was one of these Departments . Section 65 provides for all laws which, immediately prior to the commencement of the Transkei Constitution Act, were in force in the Transkei to remain in force until repealed or amended by the competent authority. Thus the Bantu Education Act, as amended, and the regulations of that Department became the legal foundation of the Department of Education in the Transkei.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is the hon. Minister prepared to reply? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, yesterday I spoke at length on the motives of this Bill and I do not find it necessary to expatiate more than I have done, but I assume that the hon. member knows that apart from educational qualifications of any applicant there are other qualifications that are required by the Govemment in the employment of its servants. For instance, the health and citizenship of the applicant are qualifications usually considered before any appointment is made. Clause 1 put and agreed to by 55 votes to 34.

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In 1964 the Transkei Education Act was passed. This Act provided for the abolition of school boards as it was the policy of the Govemment to do away with the school board system. This Act came into force on the 1st April, 1965. It must, however, be clearly understood that this Act only amended those sections of the Bantu Education Act which had a direct bearing on school boards. The Transkei Education Act is now being repealed but its provisions are adequately covered by this Bill . As

I have

stated on previous occasions the

Transkei Govemment has been granted control of education for Bantu persons without any reservations、 Though the legislative provisions as amended, which existed up to the present moment, may have been adequate the Government felt that the Transkei should have its own Education Act. The Bill that is now before the House is the direct outcome of our policy on this matter. The Bill is a comprehensive one and enables the Govemment to deal effectively with all tyeps of education, and at all levels , except University education. It was felt that it is not necessary in this Bill to provide for University education because the establishment of a University will require a separate act in any case.

The Bill consists of 33 sections, covering the whole field of educational control and administration. The Department made a careful study of other education acts and provincial education ordinances and this Bill is therefore based on existing education legislation in the Republic of South Africa. The Bill introduces no new principle or procedures in the control of education. The Bill deals in detail with misconduct and the discharge from service of teachers. This very important matter has been brought into the Bill, rather than leaving it to be dealt with in regulations. In this way teachers are given greater security as it is much more difficult to change an act of parliament than it is to change a regulation. No doubt this will be welcomed by everybody concerned.

The Bill also adequately provides for the necessary financial safeguards by stipulating consultation with the Minister of Finance in all matters having financial implications . The advisory functions of regional authorities in the educational field have been retained. The Minister is also given powers to establish school committees and other bodies to advise and assist the Department in educational matters. The position as it exists today therefore remains unaltered. In the passing of this Bill I see the true birth of the Transkei's own education system. This Bill' constitutes in a very real sense an important milestone in the development of the Transkei as our hoemland. In fact, we are today in process of writing an important chapter in the history of our people and, in doing so, I wish to take this opportunity of paying tribute to the men and women who have done so much for us in the educational field , many of whom are no longer with us. I refer in particular to the missionaries, the officials of the Cape Education Department and, in later days, to the officials of the Department of Bantu Education. In a legal sense we are today cutting ourselves loose from the rest of South Africa in educational matters. However, in professional matters we shall endeavour to maintain close and friendly relations with all education departments in South Africa, as the present Government of the Transkei fully realises that we have a long way to go before our own education system is fully developed and we therefore appreciate the great value to our people of maintaining co-operation and friendly relations with the other education departments in South Africa. I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this Bill creates a firm foundation for our own education system and I have therefore much pleasure in moving the second reading.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman, we have listened very attentively to the efforts of the hon. the Minister of Education. Of course, his preparatory speech on this subject has been scanty. We were puzzled by finding that before he delved into the gist of his speech he said the existing laws would be continued, so we do not know whether those laws do

been done away with long ago but it is still in force. Even during the time when we began this session we were complaining against certain circulars. Such circulars in fact have affected our people very adversely. Now we have just been told that the Transkei Education Act which was said to have been based on the Cingo Commission Report has been said to be done away with. We hope that is true because even when we survey that we find that that Education Act was not only concemed with the abolition of school boards. There were many other aspects that we proposed should be done away with under that Act, but in the majority of cases you will find that the Department will always surreptitiously do away with the label and leave the contents intact. Again, I am puzzled when I have listened to one quotation that this Bill will be the direct outcome of the policy. We know that there is only one policy that is being imposed on the people and that policy is separate development. We know that policy envisages one education system and that is the slave education system. So in this particular Bill that has to be discussed we hope therefore that all the elements that are nefarious or injurious to the promotion of human rights have been discarded, and such things as dismissing teachers without stated reason I do not think should be in this Bill. Such random regulations that are made at the whims of the goveming authorities will no longer be done because it is always found that during the recess of the Assembly there are many circulars that are interfering with the liberty of the teachers. Further, we hope that there will be no deferred payments for teachers , because all along the teachers have been dissatisfied with working for no payment. That has resulted in many resignations and to the dearth of so many teachers. I am also puzzled by the statement that the position is still unaltered. This appears to be an inconsistency in so far as this Bill is concemed. We hope therefore the word that the birth of the true Transkei an education is really true and it will not be in conflict with the aspirations of the emergent Transkeian citizens. MR . M.H. CANCA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this debate is important in that it has a bearing on the education of our children , particularly in view of the fact that the Government has seen fit to provide our children with schools where different courses are taught so that they will present us with no difficulties. Formerly there was general uniformity in what was taught and there was no altemative for children who could not cope with academic education . We note now that the Govemment is providing for vocational schools, special schools and homes things which were hitherto unknown. We also note that the Govemment is taking upon itself the responsibility of providing part-time classes. It has also made some provision for adult education . We also note that the Govemment intends erecting school clinics and maintaining them just as it is the intention to erect hostels. All these are an indication of great development in education for our children in the Transkei. We also greatly appreciate the Govemment taking over all schools, including primary schools, and to shoulder responsibility for their maintenance. I am certain hon. members will remember the hard-

ships formerly suffered by the parents in having to erect schools. We are quite certain that in the not distant future this burden will be removed from the shoulders of the parents. I am certain the parents of the children in the Transkei will be grateful to the not embody the ones we have been fighting against Goverment for all these provisions. Another matter all along, because in the majority of cases you will which I think the personnel of the Education Departfind that the Bantu Education Act was said to have ment will greatly appreciate is the provision of the -223-

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Government that an employee can, if he so desires, continue to do some work even after reaching superannuation age, provided the Assembly agrees, and the door is still open for such an employee to carry on for more than two years, which means that those of us who are still able-bodied on reaching the age of 60 and who wish to do so will be able to continue. Another matter for which I am grateful is the provision where a teacher who is charged with misconduct will have his case tried properly and will not be steamrolled, and also the fact that such teacher will be given the right to be represented at that trial. This is one reason why the teachers should be thankful, because they will not be dismissed summarily and without charges being made against them. Another point which I think is very favourable to a teacher, provided he appreciates it, is that they are allowed to have teachers ' associations. They will be able to discuss in conference and deal with matters which are worrying them and they will be able to frame their complaints to the Department. They will appreciate this because there is a general fear among teachers that- if they are isolated then they may become victimized, whereas if they do things in conference whatever is decided upon will always be considered. If they have any grievances against their conditions of service, such grievances can be handled through their associations. The hon. member who has just sat down complains against teachers being transferred without any reasons being given for such transfer. Let him remember that there may be reasons which the teacher himself may not like to be publicized, whereas if his transfer is done in a quiet manner he will appreciate that because no one wants a disgrace to be made public. I say the Govemment is making no mistake because there are such things that we do not want to expose to the public gaze. This provision whereby the teacher's misconduct is not made public is in the interests of the teacher himself.

their manner of dress they resemble those of the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town. The entry of the Chairman being led in by the Sergeant- at- Arms is very similar to the practice in Cape Town. There is just a slight difference in the Sergeant-at-Arms in that he has a spear. One might say that in that we are following our customary way of life because we, as a people, have always used a spear. Even in the Legislative Assembly we have two sides · the Government side and the Opposition side. This motion therefore asks for consideration of the idea that the chiefs be in an upper house and the elected members in the lower house. Further, we elected members still wish to respect our chiefs and the purpose of this motion is to confer on the chiefs the respect that is due to them. It is a very well known law that the chief has never at any time been the maker of the law. (Interjections) It is also a known fact that a chief is never an elected member of his own people. The chief carries out the desire of his people and sees to it that that desire is for the good of all.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The chief is a leader. MR. JAFTA: We live with the chiefs; we know our chiefs. We are the subjects of our chiefs and we know how to present our case to our own chiefs. In everything that we do together with our chiefs, the purpose and the object of the chief is to carry out what the tribe has decided upon. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Where will you put the White people?

THE CHAIRMAN: As there seems to be no further debate on this Bill, I will put the question. Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I propose that we go into committee on this Bill on Friday moming. PROVISION FOR UPPER HOUSE FOR CHIEFS AND LOWER HOUSE FOR ELECTED MEMBERS MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government to review the Transkei Constitution to make provision for an upper house for chiefs and a lower house for elected members. " Mr. Chairman, I bring a motion which is constantly being talked about by the electorate outside this House. All the people who are aware of the existence of this Legislative Assembly constantly discuss this motion. If you take note you will be aware that this Legislative Assembly is very much like the Legislative Assembly at Cape Town, even to the carpet on the floor. We have the Speaker and his assistant, the Deputy Speaker, just as in Cape Town. We likewise have the Secretaries and even in

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MR. JAFTA: The chief carries out the decisions of his own tribe and therefore does not lower but upholds his own dignity. During times of war it is a known fact that the chief does not leave with the army but remains at home, and if there should be any trouble or disorder anywhere the chief is never put at the front, but he stays behind his own people. In this Assembly we have 64 nominated members, not elected by the tribe and there are 45 elected members. That number constitutes that the power and majority in this Assembly is not the power of the elected members and therefore the law coming out of the desires and wishes of the people has been taken away from them. It is on that account that we maintain that this state of affairs should be put right. It is not as it should be. You heard me when I compared this Assembly to the Assembly at Cape Town, and as this Parliament is the outcome of the practice of the European people, let it be like the Parliament which is found among the European people. In that manner we will be following democratic principles. It is on that account that we make an appeal that this law be looked into as it is not in accordance with accepted principles. I do not know how the chiefs defend this situation in view of the fact that the chief is never in the forefront of the fight but in the rear. Further, according to practice the chief is never the elected member of his own tribe. I maintain that if the chiefs form an upper house they will be in a place where they will command respect. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You want to put them in cold storage.

MR. JAFTA: No chief will be insulted because he will be holding a position that suits his status. It is in the lower house where disrespectful language is used and we do not wish our chiefs to have the

those who have to undertake that duty. Even in this Assembly, whatever laws we make pass on to Pretoria for review. It is for that reason that we give the people who review our deliberations in this House all the respect that we can. It is not because of their white colour, but because of the fact that the work they do is of a dignified nature in reviewing the decisions of this House. The fact that we have that Senate is because even here we have the chiefs who are not elected by the people, so that the laws which are made are not in keeping with the elected people. The elected members are the representatives of the people. It means that the people who make it possible to pass laws are the chiefs who are not the elected members of their subjects. It is a known fact that the chiefs will always side with the Government because they are paid servants of the Govemment. It is for that reason that we, together with the electorate, appeal to the Govemment thatthey should create these two houses and that the chiefs be in the upper house and the elected members in the lower house. I hope this fact is plain to everybody and that no one will oppose the fact that a chief never is an elected member of his own tribe. With those words, Mr. Chairman, I would that the two sides of the House come to a unanimous agreement in asking the Republican Govemment to create an upper and a lower house for this Assembly. The chiefs are respectable people, dignified, and they ought not to be in a place where they can be spoken to in a disrespectful manner. By this motion we wish and desire that the dignity of the chiefs be upheld at all times. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, I second the motion. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I propose an amendment to Motion No. 39: "That all the words after the word ' Assembly' be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: 'is against the creation of an upper house for chiefs and expresses its satisfaction with the present constitutional arrangement whereby the chiefs and the elected members sit in the same Legislative Assembly to make the laws for the Transkeian people'."

Mr. Chairman, I stand up to say that I am opposed to the motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta. This is the third year that we have been attending the Assembly here.

been brought to you by the mover and the provision is imperative that it shall be brought by the mover. (Laughter) It is not by the interpreter or anybody else. He cannot bring it before you by proxy, Sir, and I ask for your ruling on this.

THE CHAIRMAN : I think it is the practice.

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MR. GUZANA: Whatever the practice may be, if the matter is wrong and it is brought to your notice we will be bound by the rules otherwise it will be altogether out of order.

THE CHAIRMAN : I will see to it next time, hon. member. I think the Secretary can read this amendment now . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I cannot leave this matter unchallenged because you say you will see to it next time. I want to put the point that the matter of bringing it to you is not that it shall be brought personally.

THE CHAIRMAN: That is the rule here. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You will have to read it properly and in the interpretation of the rule you must the also consider the intention of the legislator person who made the law. By saying a person must come to you does not mean that he must walk up to you. ·

finger of scorn pointed at them by their subjects. One member interjected that by this motion we want to place the chiefs in cold storage. It is not so. It is you who desire to lower the dignity ofthe chiefs, whereas we wish to uphold their dignity. Further, if the chiefs review the decisions of the lower house that alone will bring them more respect. Apart from the fact that it will uphold the dignity of the chiefs, it is the practice of all other countries to have a house of review. (Interjections) To review the deliberations of the lower house is a sign of respect to

THE CHAIRMAN : I have told you that is the practice. The interpreter should bring the amendment. (Interjections)

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MR. GUZANA: If it happens again we will challenge it. THE CHAIRMAN : I see your point, but I will ask the Secretary to read it now. MR. GUZANA: Ifthe Chairman concedes my point..... (Interjections ) I get an interjection from that side negativing your ruling on this matter as to whether you have taken it up correctly. I accept that you have to a degree slackened the rule and that the House took an advantage of that. 1 THE CHAIRMAN : I have already given a ruling and I think you are wasting time. P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman, this is just typical of what they are objecting to. Here the hon. member calls upon me to go to the Chairman and hand in my motion. He is thereby showing no respect for me. I have already said it is three years since we started attending here. The small Opposition has been abusing us and referring to us as fools and stupid, illiterate people. I have never yet heard a properly educated person referring to an educated person as a " qaba". You are moving today that we should have an upper house a thing that is unknown except in England.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I rise on a point of order. I refer you , Sir, to rule 73 (a). That amendment is not properly before you. Rule 73 (a) requires that an amendment proposed shall be in writing and shall be brought to the Chair by the mover and handed to the Chairman who shall read the text to the Assembly. The debate may then take place on that amendment. The amendment has not -225-

MR. RAJUILI : They have an upper house in Town , America. Cape Basutoland, Swaziland,

P/CHIEF SIGCAU : The hon . Mr. Rajuili yesterday remarked that a certain matter was above my intellect. MR. RAJUILI: I think this one too is above your grasping it.

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P/CHIEF SIGCAU : For you to make a remark like that about a man who is over such a large area as Eastem Pondoland while you are in charge of only a tiny congregation can you tell people that you know more than I do here?

nesday, 25th May, 1966 .

MR . RAJUILI : This is not Eastem Pondoland. This is Parliament.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment, confirmed.

P/CHIEF SIGCAU: We have seen your conduct here in the years you have been here. I cannot even see any educated persons in theOpposition with the exception of Mr. Guzana and the Rev. Rajuili . We boast of three on this side.

TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING

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MR. RAJUILI: Perhaps you have forgotten the hon. Dr. Bala.

WEDNESDAY, 25TH MAY, 1966 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Government Service Amendment Bill, 1966, be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman.

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except in times of war and this is not war. We live with the " ibandla" and carry on discussions. Why do you want to separate yourselves? What do you want to do? After the establishment of this upper house will you not say you are not going to take anything from illiterates, as you do now? As it is you do not recognise us now. (Interjections) You do not know what you are talking about. All you are after is position and you will never get those positions. We have already seen into your actions. There are those who pretend to be respectful when indeed they are not. Some of you showed some kindness , particularly this session , and I can see you are anticipating a by-election. That is why you are so kind. (Laughter) All you want is to get more votes in Pondoland, but you will get no votes. All these years you have shown me no kindness. I can read your thoughts. The hon. Mr. Majija once got hold of my nose and he accused me of drawing people towards me. (Laughter) That was during the first year of the Assembly. He caught hold of my nose and that is the first time anything . like that has ever happened. How can we have any trust in people who boast of being educated and yet employ people like Doubt. If you want to kill people how can we trust you? Just because you boast of education you think you can do anything. If that is the case, you can keep your education . I cannot see any need for lengthy discussion on this matter. Your actions have shown the necessity for our keeping together because if you do succeed in separating us it will lead to your downfall. I say that because of words uttered nasty and bitter things. You read the Hanby you sard and then you will see what nasty things people say. Obviously we cannot be separated from you. After all, you are our subjects. I am sorry you are keeping my brother over there instead of sending him here, but one day he will come here. I did not want to talk like that but you have made me do so . (Interjections) I do not know the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi. I do not know where he comes from. I saw him for -

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P/CHIEF SIGCAU: Yes, and Dr. Bala. We are properly educated on this side and it is not right that one side should refer to the other as illiterate. The hon. Mr. Jafta remarked that chiefs should be at the back. We in Pondoland sit with commoners

the first time in this Assembly. We say on this side of the House that we must keep together in the Assembly. We are not after any spoils and you will never get spoils if you stay on that side, as I have already pointed out. With those few words I move this amendment. This matter requires no eloquence.

The debate was adjoumed . The Assembly adjourned

until 11 a.m. on Wed-

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The Bill was read a third time. PROVISION FOR UPPER HOUSE FOR CHIEFS AND LOWER HOUSE FOR ELECTED MEMBERS . The debate was resumed. MR . A. XELO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment moved by the hon. Paramount Chief B. Si gcau. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the mover of the motion. It is most surprising that the hon. chiefs on the other side should take up the attitude they are adopting towards other chiefs. However, one sees that they are safeguarding their own positions. We are here to ask for an upper house for reasons that were advanced by the mover of the motion. Traditionally it is a well-known fact which cannot be denied by anybody that chiefs in our rural areas have got a peculiar position which entails that they do not interfere with public arrangements. Traditionally the counsellors do the work. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Not the swearing. MR . MAZWI: This is not the time for swearing. The chiefs are known to sit in the "inkundla "or forum and listen to the deliberations of the counsellors and they do not take part. Their duty is only to sum up and give a verdict in consultation with the counsellors. It does appear that our chiefs on the other side, especially the paramount chiefs, are obsessed with a fear that the other chiefs will run away from their T.N.I.P. and they feel they have to blockade the way so that the chiefs will not go out of this House. The truth is that the chiefs on the other side are just scared of their leaders who want them to belong to that side in spirit and in body. I wish to give you this warning: If the present arrangement lasts the chiefs (I mean any one of the chiefs) are going to lose the respect of their people. The place of the chiefs is in the administration and judiciary, not in the legislature. Now they are bound to take a very active part in politics in here and outside and as such we have to organise the people very much against them. (Interjections) That is the arrangement purposely made by the Republican Goverment so as to cause chaos in our country. The final blow will be that the Africans will be said to be not yet in a position to govern their own affairs. Why should you fear to be in the upper house and leave us to make laws for ourselves? It is because you are aiming to be despots and to terrify the people all over the

country, as that is what is happening today. You say you should be the ones to legislate and yet you are administrators and judicial officers at the same time, and then you claim to have a spirit of democracy. Let us think sanely then. An upper house gives you an opportunity in which you will be in a position to review the laws which are going to be passed by the lower house. If you notice anything that is detrimental to the people of the country then you will reverse the decision or refer it back, instead of legislating here with us. The fact that you people are just here without any mandate is in itself a sign of despotism and terrorism. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : You are insulting the chiefs. MR. MAZWI: I must give you a waming for the second time and in unequivocal terms that we are organising against you as long as you continue in this way. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. We are dealing with a very important question so I will ask the members to behave properly in this House. MR. MAZWI : Do not be mistaken that we are going to organise people to kill you. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is the organisation you are doing to get people to kill the chiefs. MR . MAZWI: We are organising against despotism and to teach the people the principles of democracy not the sort of democracy you preach. On those grounds, gentlemen, we appeal to you to look at this question very seriously. As long as you are in this House

THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member. You

that you are working for the people when actually you are working for your own personal gain. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame ! Disgrace!

MR. MAZWI : Traditionally, hon. members , the chiefs do not belong to this House and therefore we move accordingly that there must be an upper house in this Parliament. MR . A.G. XELO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to reiterate your waming that this is a delicate matter and members should try and be silent and allow the speakers to speak their minds. I rise up to oppose the motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta. I am supporting the amendment by the hon. Paramount Chief. The Constitution providing for 64 chiefs has the Lord's blessing and I pray that they should take that position. Traditionally there has never been any court or "inkundla" which has not been presided over by a chief. The counsellors discuss and as the discussion goes on the chief picks out which counsellors are of assistance to the nation and which are not. When the White man came to this country God informed us that that would be the position and that we would stand by our chiefs and that would entail that we should stay with our chiefs and never separate ourselves from them and we were to take education and charity from the White man and preserve these with our chiefs. There is nothing else we intend to preserve except that which was given us by the Almighty and no White man is going to prevent us from doing that. Moreover I am sorry that in spite of the fact that we have chiefs in the Opposition that the members should discuss the chiefs in this way. It is those members who come from a cursed organisation. (Interjections) Even as it is they say openly that they dislike the chiefs. An hon. member has said they are going to go out and organise people to kill the chiefs .

must not say " gentlemen " , you must say "honourable members". MR. MAZWI: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. As long as you are here, hon. members , you must forget that we are going to regard you as chiefs. In this House we are all "honourable members", irrespective of your status outside. It is for that reason that we feel there must be an upper house for our chiefs. In the history of nations there has never been a legislature composed of commoners and kings. That only pertains to South Africa among the Black people, and even then only in the Transkei. In Basutoland you will find chiefs in the upper house; in Swaziland and Bechuanaland you will find chiefs in the upper house ; so only in the Transkei will you see chiefs and commoners in one house, and the Transkei is under a Senate in the Republic. If then you are sincerely for the development of the Transkei , why do you reject the idea of a Senate for the Transkei? If you are sincere that one day the Transkei shall be independent of the Republic why should you be afraid to have a Senate? It is because you are not sincere in wanting the best for the Transkei and because you known the Transkei will remain perpetually a colony of the Republic . Now I must tell you your policy . You want us to remain perpetually slaves of the Republic on the pretext that you are fighting for independence and you are trying to establish a state in which chiefs have assumed power that does not belong to them. At one time I likened the position obtaining in this country to that of Germany and Russia, when a few men ruled the majority even very much against the will of the people, on the pretext

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OPPOSITION MEMBERS: He never said that. MR. XELO: . . .and it is those people who have been following them who have been sentenced to life imprisonment and death for listening to them. (Interjections ) MR. K.M. GUZANA: Who are they? Don't talk irresponsibly here. THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

MR . XELO: Then others decided to follow their example and kill their own king. (Interjections ) As it is you are divided into three sections and one, according to the hon. member, is going out into the country to organise the killing of chiefs. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: You are talking nonsense. No one said that. Why don't you listen? THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. XELO: But I want to tell you that you will never reach such a goal. You will die with your chiefs in this Chamber. You have been abusing the chiefs in this Chamber and when they get into an upper chamber you will wish to use bombs on them.

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(Laughter) I think I must wam the people that you are just trying to find ways of getting rid ofthe chiefs so that eventually you will tum into Nkrumahs and Nyereres. If you had any love or respect for these chiefs in the Opposition you would not fall

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into the disgrace of referring to the chiefs in this way. The Chiefs were originally put over the people by God and that is why they are here today. It is a lie to say that the chiefs do not represent the people. Chiefs are elected by the people and by God. We can also go into the country and tell the people that you are betraying the nation and furthermore you are betraying your own chiefs on the other side. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. XELO: I am not prepared to listen to anybody who says he is a Minister of Religion and yet does not talk like one. I will end by saying it is just as well that we are in this Chamber with you because we know what sort of people you are. As I am here I am prepared to die for the cause of chief tainship because I fear the Lord who has commanded that the chiefs should look after the people. I am very thankful to the Republican Govemment for giving us this opportunity so that the people will not be like Pharoh who rose against Moses when he was leading the children of Israel out of Egypt. Parlia ment belongs to God and not to the Devil and you peoplehere have left God. (Interjections) You are imbued with the spirit of the Devil and you shout so loudly no one can be heard. Allow the chiefs to unite with the other chiefs so that the country will go forward. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: They can do that in the upper house. Sit down. MR. XELO: I conclude by saying: May the Constitution remain for ever. THE CHAIRMAN: Before we carry on I wish to announce to the hon. members that I want to allow a free discussion of this question but if the hon. members make so much noise I shall curtail the debate because you are intefering with the steno. grapher and the interpreters. It is up to you therefore and if you continue making that noise I shall curtail the debate.

White people and we know that the Parliament we are copying has two houses. There is a lower house and an upper house of chiefs. It ought not to surprise any body therefore that we have a motion like this in front of us , asking the Republican Government to amend the Constitution so that there shall be an upper house of chiefs. This is the important thing O that we should uphold the dignity of our own chiefs. We have noted that in the discussions in this Assembly expressions are directed at the chiefs which tend to lower the dignity of those chiefs. If in the discussion a member points a finger at a chief it appears as though such member has no respect for the chief, whereas in actual fact he is doing so to emphasize what he is talking about. Every member in this Assembly should express his full opinion e ven if that opinion is contrary to what the chief holds. I see no reason why the chiefs should fear to go into an upper house, leaving the lower house to their people. The Bunga which is now obsolete has always caused an unpleasant feeling because of the fact that it was composed of chiefs and it appeared that the people were being ruled despotically by the Bunga and they were not given an opportunity to be part and parcel of the council which ruled them. Our support for this motion gives an opportunity to the elected members to be able to discuss and represent fully the views of the electorate. The people are the subjects of their chiefs and they cannot be suspected of disloyalty to their own chiefs if they are in the lower house. No chief whose people rose against him would not question himself as to why his subjects rose against him. If the people rise against you it is because there is cause for their doing so, only perhaps you are not honest enough to look into it yourself. If we love our own subjects why should we be reluctant to be in the upper house to review the laws enacted by the people? It has been mentioned that even in Basutoland they have an upper house of chiefs. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: (Inaudible interjection)

PARAMOUNT CHIEF VICTOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support Motion No. 39 as it appears on the paper. At the very outset I would like to say that there is not a word in this motion which would make it impossible for it to be discussed in this Assembly. Indeed the Constitution under which we are working states clearly that the chiefs will come to this Assembly as chiefs of their people, not as elected members, but that is no impediment to the fact that if there is need the Constitution can be amended. The law is made for the people, not the people for the law. I can say I am one of the chiefs in this Assembly and I am not one who does not feel that the chiefs ought to get their due respect from the people. I am one of those who would feel very strongly anything that was directed at bringing an end to chieftainship.

P/CHIEF POTO : If he comes here as an elected member, not as a nominated member. As far as I am aware I do not think there is any nation that has a greater respect for their chiefs than the Basutos ..

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Communists are destroying chieftainship in Basutoland. .and that would be the P/CHIEF POTO: case here if we, as chiefs, agreed to be in a house other than that which deals directly with legislation for the people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is a crisis in Basutoland.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: In a multi-racial Parliament? P/CHIEF POTO: That is coming. I think I bear scars that would indicate that I have always fought for chieftainship and I stand here to show the respect that the Bantu people have for their own chiefs. This motion is not something which has never been spoken of before. We of the Transkei began this. Parliament well aware that we had copied it from other nations. This is a thing which comes from the

P/CHIEF POTO : I can put it this way - that the chiefs fear going into an upper house. The tradition that the chief should always be respected by his people is evidenced even in the tribal courts in that it is not the chief who is in the forefront. He remains in the background and his counsellors deal with matters. I do not think there is any chief who will contradict that statement here because even in dealing with cases the chief sits down to listen and it is the counsellors who discuss the case and the chief only passes judgement. He cannot force his opinion on the court. The chief is quite free to express his opinion in any matter but he should not force the whole of his court to follow that opinion.

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of this motion is not new. It is something which has always existed among the Bantu people and their chiefs. This Parliament of ours would have the dignity proper to it if we ourselves would give the chiefs the dignity that is due to them. If that is not the proper way, several parliaments which have two houses would have come to an end. The motion does not indicate that we want the chiefs to have nothing to do with the affairs of their own people. We maintain that the chiefs should be in their own house and not mix up with the Legislative Assembly. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about the chiefs being in the Assembly and the ordinary man in the upper house? (Laughter)

OPPOSITION MEMBER: There will be a joint sitting. MR. SIHELE: I am glad you answered the question. I know there will be a joint sitting but I wanted you to answer that question yourself. If we come to that finally, what is the difference between a joint sitting and what we have now? The chiefs of the upper house and the members of the lower house will then be in session together. How will you then uphold the dignity due to the chiefs when there is a joint sitting? Let me say then that the question of upholding the dignity of the chiefs must be put aside. (Interjections)

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

P/CHIEF POTO: The hon. the Chief Minister asks what about the chiefs being in the Assembly and the ordinary members in the upper house. I would put the question to him. How would you like it? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The chiefs have got to make the laws. P/CHIEF POTO: It is chiefs like this who confuse the minds of their people, (Laughter) because they force the people to do their own will and by that course of action such chiefs destroy chieftainship. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. P/CHIEF POTO: I would like you to forget that when we say we want two houses of parliament it is an attempt on our part to lower the dignity of the chiefs. I am one who wishes to see the dignity of chiefs upheld all the time as has always been the case. Our govemment would be acceptable to the people if we accepted the idea of being put in the upper house. With these words I am trying to help the chiefs think aright on this matter and I am trying to make it clear that this motion is not aimed at lowering, but at upholding the dignity of the chiefs . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. E.G. SIHELE: Mr. Chairman and hon. membérs, I rise up to give support to the amendment moved by the hon. Paramount Chief for Qaukeni region. Indeed he has put it explicitly and shown perfectly well that he understands and knows what chieftainship is. In like manner too the hon. Paramount Chief who has just sat down knows what chieftainship is. May I comment briefly with reference to what the last speaker said in relation to chieftainship. He says he upholds chieftainship; he says that a person who upholds chieftainship should uphold the principle that chiefs should be in the upper house. He nevertheless agrees that even in the custom of the people it was the chief who directed the affairs of his people, even to the extent of declaring war. Here I have a book by him referring to the history of the Pondo people. He put it clearly that no sub-chief has a right to do anything outside what the paramount chief and his counsellors would like done. It is surprising that today he holds that the subchiefs should now work apart from their counsellors. It surprises me further that he should hold that the

MR. SIHELE: Here is a matter that has always disturbed our thinking. You on the Opposition side maintain that we must have multi-racialism, whereas all of us here have come to this parliament on the understanding of separate development. Since you have been in this House you wish for multi- racialism . When did this idea come to you? It was because the Chief at Nyandeni could not achieve the position of Chief Minister and because that was your idea you were disappointed. Dr. Aggrey, a very wise man, said: Use what you have until you attain that which you want. We have a mandate for independence and while we are struggling and making efforts to attain that independence which the people ask for you on the opposite side oppose us. Your opposition to the motion asking for more departments from the Republican Govemment was only because you maintain that the departments now given to this Govemment are not being satisfactorily run and it suprises me that such a statement should come from a leader who was elected by the people on the mandate that the people must be given the right to live. Instead of him taking note of the wishes of the people he merely looks at those he does not like who happen to be in power. The reason why people want this is because they want to be independent of the Republican Government. Reference was also made to the fact that whenever it comes to a point that is of importance the White people are against it. One asks how we know that. I know it because whenever there is

elected members who are discussing legislation should not be in the same council as their own chiefs. Let me give this example: Suppose a law passes the lower house and goes to the upper house and in the upper house the chiefs find they cannot accept the recommendations of the lower house?

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a question of giving full power to the Black man to represent his own people in Parliament the White people say No. It is for that reason that I say they are unanimous. (Interjections ) How will you go into that Parliament? All the White people object to that and they will not allow you to be in that Parliament. Now to come to this motion, the hon. Mr. Jafta does not fully understand the implications of the motion which says chiefs should be in the upper house. According to Bantu custom as laid down by John Anderson Soga the court of the Bantu people legislates and the chief is the head of that court. The discussions go on in the presence of the chief. Though he may leave the court he will leave word and point the direction to the members of his court and on his retum he will put the question as to how far they have advanced. Then one of his leading members will give a report to him of what has been going on in his absence. Thereafter the chief will make a resumé and conclusion of what ought to be done. Having weighed both sides of the question he will come to a conclusion as to what ought to be the outcome. The customs of the people do not change. They remain what they have always been. How do you come to this conclusion that when we have been given the opportunity to follow our own customs you feel we should follow customs that are foreign ?

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Take note of what is going on in Basutoland. I was in Basutoland when there were discussions going on. That is why I say I have always fought for independence. How is it that now when we are given independence you should say you do not want independence? There is trouble in Basutoland. I refer this e to those who talk about Basutoland. Do you know that Chief (inaudible) will not go to England to discuss matters . ... MR. GUZANA: Has Queen Elizabeth been to Rhodesia to discuss things?

MR. SIHELE: Remember, it was because there were members in the Senate whom he did not like and he deposed them and put others there and that was not accepted, and the members who had been deposed were put back into power. That means that what is happening in Basutoland now is outside this question. I want to ask the whole House if they want the Transkei to be ruled against their own wishes. That 1 has happened next door to us. The Paramount Chief of Nyandeni was talking to some of the chiefs and the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was present at that I gathering. On that day you explicitly put it that you were not opposed to separate development. You would assume separate development until such time as you would acquire independence and when you attained full'independence only then would you advocate multi-racialism. For that reason I suppose the motion and the members of the Opposition should forget their wish for an upper house because with multi-racialism they will not be able to put it into effect. After the expiry of five years I think I will still be a member of this Assembly and I will put a motion to the effect that there should be greater respect and dignity in this House.

I want to tell my friends on the other side that it was not the Republican Govemment who said the chiefs must be in this Assembly. The hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland was there, and the Chairman , as well as myself. Dr. Verwoerd was against the chiefs being in the majority in this Assembly. My hon. friend, the leader on the other side, was pressing that the chiefs should come to this Assembly. I and the hon. Paramount Chief and the Chairman were against it. Dr. Verwoerd, the Prime Minister of the Republic, opposed that the chiefs should come to this Assembly and he said it would not be true democracy if they did. I am trying to make it clear to my hon. friend on the other side that he must not blame the Republican Govemment in this matter. He told us a lot about Almighty God and Satan which has no bearing on this question. Even the last speaker said a great deal and as far as I can summarize it he does not know where he is. I can tell him that according to what he says he should be on this side of the House. When we suggest that chiefs should go to an upper house we are merely telling the House what the practice is all over the word, as has already been pointed out by the hon. Paramount Chief on this side. We are trying to arrange things to suit the chiefs on the other side and all the people of this country. If you think things should run well on your side for the chiefs and nothing should be done for the people, such things will continue until there is trouble one day. The day there is friction between the chiefs and the people you will realise what a bad thing this is. We are trying to safeguard the position so that there will be no trouble between the chiefs and the people. Those who have studied history will know that there was war in Europe between the lords and the peasants. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where was that?

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to speak after people who are neither chiefs nor elected members have spoken. You can tell what kind of people they are in society - people who are not chiefs and who do not even represent the electorate but who have just made a lot of noise this moming. I am just going to leave that alone. It is useless to speak to such people. I will only speak to those people who have spoken. It is only because they have taken positions which belong to other people and who want the positions that we have now. I am glad to see that you regard this subject as one of great importance and that you will give us time to discuss it fully. The request which is now being made is that the chiefs should be allowed to uphold their dignity and that they should have a separate house. It must be clear to the chiefs that we do not want them to be completely outside . They must also be in Parliament but in a separate house and thereby their dignity will be maintained. There are people who have suffered hardship or who thought that they were slaves and their minds consequently deteriorated, because anyone who thinks he is a slave sees only one step in front of him even if his eyes are open, and therefore he is satisfied and does not want to go any further. I wish the chiefs on the other side would decide whether they should disappoint the coming generations or not, although I know they are going to be forced by their party, and particulady by the leaders in the front bench, when it comes to the vote. They should vote for their own children's sake. When we discussed this Constitution I went to Pretoria with some of the chiefs on the other side. I heard a speaker on the other side who is not a chief and who merely came to take the place of one Moses who represented a paramount chief in this Assembly.

CHIEF MAJEKE : The war started because the peasants said the lords had more land, and that was the end of the aristocracy because the people rose against them and defeated them. That was the start of the parliamentary system in that country when the people were able to rule themselves and they elected representatives. Then the lords were put in an upper house and that exists today in England. Don't think we are merely telling you stories. We are telling you about something that actually happened. You will never see Queen Elizabeth going to the Houses of Parliament. She is represented by Mr. Wilson. Here we have the hon. Paramount Chief who spoke yesterday and another one who spoke this morning. Where will you see these things happen these things that you want to happen in the Transkei? Why is it that the English people do not do that? Why did they take the lords away from the lower house? (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

CHIEF MAJEKE: We are occupying the seats of the people here now. How would it be if a person is elected to occupy my seat and others to occupy the seats of the chiefs on the other side and then we go to a separate house and then we could meet on certain matters on a certain day. I do not know how to describe a person who is jealous because a person is more than cruel who wants to eat alone and not allow others to eat. He wants to rule alone and not allow others any say. He wants to be a giant so that he can be seen by everybody. I am going to liken a jealous man to that man who wanted only his own word to be listened to. He made up a very large

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do you want to raise dictators in the lower house? CHIEF MAJEKE: Our chiefs will no longer be chiefs. Just now they are going to be dictators who will make laws for the people and then tell them what laws they have made. All these laws you have made here, after a few years your children will say , for example: This law was made by Chief Holomisa of Mqanduli. How are we going to choose laws that are being made by the hon. Mr. Mdledle and the hon. Mr. Mabandla? Which is better · to say that the law

the laws I shall be glad to hear about it from the House. I am glad to have been able to speak after my friend, the hon. Chief Majeke, has spoken. In his remarks he mentioned that the speakers who spoke immediately before him should not have done so because they are not chiefs. He also mentioned certain people who are pretenders to chieftainship. If I am not mistaken he is one of those persons who really has no claim to chieftainship. (Laughter) If I am out of order, Mr. Chairman, you will put me right. If there is an hon. member in this House who is

AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed.

CHIEF D. MDITSHWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise up to support the amendment by the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland. I stand up as one of those chiefs who it is suggested must go to Heaven and those people who are in Heaven have not retumed yet. (Laughter) It is not correct that the chiefs should be given a separate house or that the counsellors are the law-makers. If there is

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worried over the presence of chiefs here then I say chieftainship is made up in different ways. One type hisit of chieftainship is created by a commoner going to las the Great Place to ask for the hand of the daughterof the chief in marriage, so whoever is worried about sanded chieftainship I would like to tell him that there are many daughters of chiefs and he should go and ask a gis chief for his daughter's hand in marriage. (Laughter) getth I think the hon. members across the floor should forget about an upper house for chiefs. Fomerly it at ar was a requirement that chiefs should be shown some respect in one form or another. What the Opposition is now moving could have been accommodated in a those olden days. Today there are disturbances, sell revolts and murders. I notice something in the district of Tsolo where a movement known as Makuluspan rose up. The movement had as its aim to do away with stock theft. (Interj ections ) This movement was VR taken up by people who were not chiefs.

was made by the hon. Mr. Canca and the hon. Mr. Sineke, or to say that the law was made by a chief? The day will come and you do not know it. There will be laws made in this Assembly which will be very bitter to the people outside. The hon . the Chief Minister has already indicated and pointed a finger at us that he might increase the taxes. What will happen then when these laws come to the people? If they go to the chief what will they tell him? The people will ask why these bad laws are being made for them. Somebody else will come forward and say that the law was made by the hon. Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa of Tsolo. Where will he run to from the Pondomisi? We are not driving you away. We want you to come and receive these moneys which you are getting but we want you to be safe in an upperhouse. If you reject this you must say openly so that we can report back to the people. You must not say what you usually say, and call the people Communists. The Pondos from Easter Pondoland have already forgotten their chiefs. Do not forget quickly, hon. members. You know what happened in Eastem Pondoland. You were deceived by other people who say it was Ahrenstein who caused those disturbances. No Ahrenstein would get among the million Pondos even with a loudspeaker, but those people were dissatisfied with the laws made by the chiefs themselves. Eastem Pondoland was not the only place that had that trouble. There were other places. My last word is this: The chiefs must take a place of dignity . All I know is that the hon. the Chief Minister is a bit quiet today. In fact he is also being referred to the upper house and I am sure he is listening to it attentively. I am sure he would enjoy being in the upper house and he can take his counsellors to this Assembly and they can point fingers at each other. If there is a dispute between the upper house (answering your question, Mr. Minister of Education) and the lower house, it is a common thing that these two houses meet and they discuss and then come to an agreement.

The debate was adjourned.

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one district in these 26 where the counsellors make

army but he is now dead. He was a real dictator. (Interjections )

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, with due respect I think you have to take note of some of the remarks made in this House. Just now the hon. member across there put a question : Why did you kill Ngudle? We cannot have such remarks because the chief never killed Ngudle. Ifthe dignity of this House is to be maintained interjections must be relevant to the debate and not remarks which have nothing to do with the debate whatsoever. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I will again appeal to the hon. members to look at rule 41 and read it properly. That is a final waming. Carry on, Chief. CHIEF MDITSHWA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. You will note that I did not hear the remark. There is a type of fighting which is physical and another type which is mental and I think inside here there should mental fighting. In any case there is the outside for physical fighting. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Is that a challenge? CHIEF MDITSHWA: Yes. I will come back to the debate and say that this movement which aimed at eliminating stock theft was the idea of commoners and no chiefs were members of that movement. The movement was illegal and the chiefs tried to intervene to save the lives of the people but at one stage I ascertained that the aim was to kill the chiefs. The movement decided that any chief who would not attend the meetings of this movement would have to pay R10. Imagine - this was a movement of the people which was supposed to be independent, but which eventually tumed against the chiefs. Imagine your court being run by your counsellors during your absence. It would only be chaos. Among other things which our tribal courts have to face are matters like cases. As the hon. Mr. Sihele explained in the Assembly I will not reiterate what he said. There is no court which does not require the presence of a

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chief. If it becomes necessary that a certain group of men should be picked out to try a certain case it is the chief who nominates those people to try such a case if he is still busy on something else. On his retum the chief puts some questions at the court to test the decision of the counsellors.

stupid communists, satanic Opposition, and so on and bearing in mind that some of these expressions come from a most senior leader and a man occupying the position I was alluding to when he called the attention of the House, bearing im mind that this is said collectively to a group of chiefs even of the same status as he, but because we are in a political

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Come to this side. That is what we say. You speak our language.

field we take it easily without feeling any insults when it comes from that side, but when only one word - stupid · is said to that side they boil up. We have never said on this side that people on the other side are satanically inclined. That is the vocabulary of the Goverment side. All these words - haters of chiefs, communists, murderers · that is the vocabu-

CHIEF MDITSHWA: Then the chief will say what is to be done, but he will say it together with the counsellors . Let us imagine now a situation where the chiefs are placed away like stud bulls. Why is it that each chief who comes to the Assembly here has an escourt of a counsellor? Why should it be necessary when he goes to another location to be escorted by a counsellor? It is because if he gets to a kraal where there is a party he might not be recognised. TheOpposition members must therefore forget the idea of chiefs sitting by themselves. Say now a quarrel arises among the chiefs themselves, where are the counsellors ? I say that the amendment of the hon. Paramount Chief should stand. Some of the members are afraid we are going to make them "indunas" which they do not want. An " induna" ora counsellor or an escort it is all the same thing. They are God's creation. With those words I support the amendment.

lary of the Govemment side. I am sure if the owners of this vocabulary would stop that vocabulary it would not be heard in this House. Now, Sir, coming to the motion in front of us there is what we call written and unwritten Native law and custom , and in that one law, written and unwritten, the position of the chief and of his counsellors is made very clear, as the last speaker, my friend the hon. Chief, so ably put it in his last remarks before he sat down. He said that a chief calls the counsellors and gives the matter to them to look into, to review and to give to him their finding, and that is very true..If the chief likes he can sit there for a while and then go away with full confidence that the counsellors will

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, hon. members of the House, I will start by making some examples so that we can understand · at least for those of us who do not quite comprehend what is wanted on this side of the House. I was quite happy when the hon. the Chief Minister stood up and drew the attention of the Chair and the members of the House to some of what he considers abuses - more so as he himself is one of the people who occupies a most senior position amongst our chiefs. I will come back to that. All of us in the House here at one time or another were young lads and we played a game of sticks. When boys play sticks there is no son of a chief in that game. They are all at par. I also take it that we have all been to school at some time or another when we were young boys and among other games we played football. When young men are in the football field you do not hear of gentlemen or sons of chiefs. They use some conventional expressions like "fellows" because of the fellowship enjoyed in that game. Now here we are grown-ups and are finding ourselves in a political field and we find ourselves engaged in a political stick game where sometimes a stick landing on a political thought is wrongly taken as an insult by less understanding people. When the Republican Govemment gave us this set-up they were aware that there would be occasions whereby some people would like to assume some status which they should not and that is why our rules of procedure have clearly stated that there will be no one honourable member out of the 109 who will claim any other status than that of an ordinary honourable member of the House. In this House we are privileged to say certain things and expressions which we may not say outside this House, as long as it is not in unparliamentary language, inasmuch as even in the tribal courts there are things which we say there which we may not say away from the tribal courts, and certain expressions which we may say even to members of the royal family at the tribal courts which we may not say away from there. Now when we are in this House we sometimes hear members on this side of the House being called asses, fools, donkeys, murderers, haters of chiefs and -232-

do the right thing, and when the matter is brought up to the chief as it is generally done , he reviews it. He may feel perhaps that certain adjustments may be made. He is perfectly right and that is exactly what we are saying. The confidence between the chief and his people is a very important thing. While on that stream of thought let me say that a chief is bom. He like any other child. He has no extra brains or understanding than any other child. Then the nation brings him up, teaches him and gives him the law. They do not go out to get other chiefs as well. They give him the law of the tribe and then he becomes an embodiment of law and administration and judiciary. He becomes an appellate division of the tribe on matters of law and custom. He maintains that dignity and he becomes a symbol. He becomes the supreme judge of the supreme court of the tribe so that when he reviews anything he does not become a dictator. He has been given that law by his fathers, the tribe. The moment any chief, no matter how small his establishment is, has no confidence in the members of his tribe, he ceases to exist as a chief and an embodiment of law and order. We are aware that a chief should never charge or prosecute anybody because he is a supreme judge of law and order. He is an appellate division of the supreme law of the tribe. He does not engage in the hurly-burly wrangle and dispute of making the law. Now the hon. member across there said the higher up they go .... Now you see, it will be making them go near God. We as the nation feel that these our supreme lawgivers must go nearer God and be godly in their judgements. Now it is surprising that they want to come down to the debris of nonsense and lower the dignity for which they were bom. Now my friend, the hon. Mr. Sihele, made reference to the book on Pondo law and custom written by the hon. Paramount Chief Victor Poto. As I stand here people who have read that book agree with everything that was in it. The only unfortunate thing is that the reader did not read it very well SO that one could understand , it properly in its true concept. Now look what we would get in the upper house. I do not want to repeat that this is an institution borrowed from the westem standards of democracy. You would keep your dignity; you would be able to review legislation with grandeur and respect. Some other speaker asked

what would happen if there is a difficulty and he was told there would be a joint sitting. Now a person who does not understand the western system of democracy

against the creation of an upper house for chiefs and expresses its satisfaction with the present constitutional arrangement whereby the chiefs and elected

thought that it would be something like this, but it is quite different from this set-up. In the joint sitting our chiefs would bring the dignity of a sacred counselling to people who do not know the law as it has been given to them. It is encouraging to note in passing that the hon. the Prime Minister, Dr. Verwoerd, was advising those who were making this Constitution to put it at 50-50 as the basis of membership because he wanted the voice of the people to be heard by their chiefs. He had already noticed what was ably placed here by the hon. the Paramount Chief of Westem Pondoland when he said that during the Bunga days the chiefs found themselves autocratic rulers of the people not represented in that body.

members sit in the same Legislative Assembly to make the laws for the Transkei an people. " The amendment suggested by the Chairman reads as follows:

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : (Inaudible interjection)

MR. RAJUILI: Now we are on high matters here that have nothing to do with education . We are on tribal matters that can only be discussed by people who have been brought up according to tribal laws and customs. People who have been brought up on fams by no chiefs cannot understand what we are saying. (Laughter) Now the Republican Government has given us this set-up so that the people's desire can be reviewed as we are now doing. I am sure the Republican Government was under the impression that the chiefs would have the opportunity to be advised by their counsellors to see how to dovetail the progress and development of the Transkei with the westem world. Now unfortunately some of our chiefs are scared by people who talk of killing the chiefs. They think when they are in the upper house the lower house will want to kill them. Whatever culprit says that is himself instilling an evil intimidation in the minds of the sacred rulers of the people in order to break that confidence between the chiefs and their subjects. Let me dismiss the idea that if we should have a bi-cameral house people will not be killed. Kings are killed; presidents are killed . The killing of man shall always be there as long as man is evil . The killing of man will not be stopped by continuing with the type of political set-up such as we have here. What must be recovered and maintained by our chiefs is the full confidence of the tribe and the people in them. We must recover that confidence. We are no communists ; we are no murderers. We are the honourable subjects of our chiefs who are the source of our pride. Whoever gives any of the chiefs some such things is the worst murderer of the soul of a sacred ruler of the people. We ourselves hate to hurl expressions at our chiefs. We are aware that the chiefs have feelings and do not like to receive such things and do not like to receive such things and we advocate to retain their dignity in the upper house. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, before we carry on with this motion I see there is a certain mistake in the amendment moved by the hon. Paramount Chief, and with the consent of the House I shall ask that it be rectified. I shall ask the Secretary to read the amendment as put by the hon. Paramount Chief and thereafter to read it the way I think it should be put. THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, the proposed amendment reads as follows: That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: "is

That all the words after the word "That" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: "this Assembly is against the creation of an upper house for chiefs and expresses its satisfaction with the present constitutional arrangement whereby the chiefs and the elected members sit in the same Legislative Assembly to make the laws for the

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Transkeian people. " According to the first amendment all the words atter the word "Assembly" will be deleted and the amendment would therefore read as follows: "That in the opinion of this Assembly is against the creation of an upper house . . . "" etc. , which would then be unintelligible and to make it intelligible the amendment now suggested by the Chairman is made with the consent of the House. THE CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree? MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the Chairman has made a suggestion arising from the fact that the amendment made the original motion unintelligible and may I suggest that in order to regularise the position the mover of the amendment makes the request to the House that he be allowed to correct the error in accordance with your suggested correction , Sir. I hope the hon. the Chief Minister is not going to dictate to the hon. the Paramount Chief. Let him do it himself. THE CHAIRMAN : I thank you, hon. member. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to say I accept the suggestion of the Chairman. THE

CHAIRMAN :

Does the seconder agree?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I agree, Mr. Chairman . Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am rising to second the amendment of the hon. Paramount Chief. I delayed so long because I thought some member on the other side would bring up something tangible to which I could reply. The mover of the motion, typical of all Africans , wants to emulate anything that is done by the White people to the last letter. He described in minute detail the construction of the House of Parliament in Cape Town , mentioning even the carpet and the mace and that was his sole reason at that time why we should have an upper house. What a feeble reason, because after all we do not have to copy anything that does not suit us. We drew up this Constitution and we drew it up for a single House of Parliament, but according to the members on the other side this was forced down our throats by the Republican officials. It is very, very unfair for the hon. member from Qumbu , Chief S. S. Majeke, to quote instances of a recess committee of which we have no record. In fact it is unparliamentary to quote a document that cannot be tabled. Coming to the

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upper house as such, I would like to ask the hon. members on the other side whether they have since somersaulted again to recognise the Transkei as a separate unit from the Republic, for you could have not two upper houses in the Republic. Supposing then you have done so (which is, of course, consistent with your behaviour) do you envisage a separate development upper house where there will be no Whites, no Coloureds, no Indians, which would be sitting in Umtata? I would like to have an answer to that before we close the debate. Supposing you do envisage a multi-racial Parliament with an upper house, where will you get your candidates from the White side to fill vacancies in the upper house, because if it is a house of chiefs where will you get White chiefs, or are you thinking of a Sir de Villiers Graaff or a certain earl whom you will import from overseas, or perhaps Mrs. Suzman who is the only one to support your views? (Interjections) Now, Sir, I am just quoting that to show that you are inconsistent. What is a Senate or an upper house? Has the hon. member studied it? It could be a house of review or a house of advice or the way you wish it, which is that it should be a cold storage house for our chiefs. (Laughter) Now take a house of review, how will these chiefs you often term stupid and monkeys and baboons be able to review your deliberations? Suppose they are there you say they will retain their dignity. What has taken away their dignity from the lower house? Is it not you insulting the chiefs by calling them bad names? Have you ever heard any chief call you a bad name? OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is that not a reflection on the other side that you could sink so low as to call your chiefs bad names? (Interjections)

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Ask the hon. the Paramount Chief of Westem Pondoland and perhaps the hon. Chief from Qumbu how they would feel if they had those people as their counsellors. Do you feel unhappy, because I understand now you want to leave them there to their mischief? I would like to hear from you before I sit down. (Interjections) We on this side are quite happy with our chiefs and we rub shoulders with them. According to our Native custom and tradition the chiefs or the counsellors never have a line between them right from infinity. The chief has never been a lone figure and now you want to leave your counsellors there to do all the mischief and invite communists here to run the country. This has happened before in Easter Pondoland, as you have quoted. There was lawlessness for about five or six months and chiefs were sent away to exile and the people stayed there without chiefs . MR . C.S. MDA: Are you prepared to produce the van Heerden Commission report as to the causes of the disturbances in Qaukeni? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Now what ended those disturbances was that the people wanted their chiefs back and they went to the then Chief Magistrate of Eastern Pondoland, who is the present Secretary of the Department of the Interior, and asked him please to bring back their chiefs. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Tell us why the chiefs left their people.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Now I am

telling you that is what will happen. Ahrenstein will come in, Vigne will come in, Duncan, Kosy gin, Chou En Lai will all come in. (Laughter) I am giving you a serious warning. MR. MDA: Here is a serious question O are you prepared to advocate that the van Heerden Commission report should be tabled here which will show what the causes of those disturbances were? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You can get it in the library. All I say is that the chiefs were chased away by the people after they had been advised to by Ahrenstein. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Why were they chased away? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now you must not make the mistake of repeating that again for what is that upper house at all? You say it will uphold the dignity of the chiefs. Are the chiefs undignified as they are? They do not need to be lifted up on the cross and hanged there in the upper house. They have their dignity. But what is an upper house at all? It is a house of review; it is a house of advice, and suppose there is a deadlock? You have suggested a joint sitting. That is not the case and I am surprised that you should have that motion. Perhaps you are thinking of the entrenched clauses which once had to be disposed of in the Republic. This Govemment of cronies and commoners with nobody to bridle them, who have to go to China for help · they can easily dismiss that house of chiefs. Supposing the chiefs cannot get a majority to pass a law in the upper house, what will prevent them, with the advice of the communists, to create other chiefs of their own making to pass that law? (Interjections) In fact that has been done in England where they created new peers to pass a certain law. MR. GUZANA: Are you suggesting that the Republican Government, when it increased the Senate, acted on the advice of the communists? You had better be careful - you talk like a baby. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I have great respect for the Republican Govemment and I know that a time will come when I shall advocate a senate. But we must leam by mistakes. The African emergent states made this very serious blunder of making no provision for chiefs to sit in the lower house with disastrous results. I can quote all the emergent states. There is not one that is peaceful today. There was a loyal senate in Ghana when they took over about nine years ago. They were pushed to the corner and the next time they were put in gaol and then Dr. Nkrumah reigned supreme with the result that you know, because he had relegated the chiefs to the background. Look at Buganda today. It is believed that the King there has been killed and that was on the orders of the Prime Minister, which might be one of you across there. And look what has happened in Tanzania and all these other states. Now why do you want to take the chiefs away? Doyou care so much for their dignity? OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : When one hon. member insulted the Paramount Chief and pulled him by the nose? Was that lifting up his dignity? (Laughter) We know you - you cannot deceive us. The mover unintentionally gave us the true reason ·- I suppose quite inadvertently · because he said these

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chiefs form the majority. Well , do you think we do not see that? The majority is there and you must accept it, and how are you going to override that majority? Who is going to take your request to the Republican Government? In any case for how long have you tried this Constitution which you want to break down? it is hardly two and a half years. Do you think we have the audacity to go to the Republican Government to saythat a Constitution which has not even completed the life of one Parliament should be changed? I think you are just wasting time because you know you cannot get the motion through. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now you want a senate in a provincial council which is what you advocate, but where have you seen a senate in a provincial council ? If you concede that you have abandoned the idea of a multi- racial parliament then come to us. In fact we need a Minister of Health and we might get the hon. doctor over there; and we might give the hon. Mr. Raziya the Department of Transport. (Laughter) Now, Sir, I just want to draw to your attention the dignity of chiefs before there was any White man or Bunga or Parliament. When the White man first came to South Africa they made treaties with the chiefs and those treaties still hold good. Now after about 300 years you say the chiefs have gone down, although other chiefs before them (their grandfathers and great- grandfathers) were able to stand with their counterparts. But I am not surprised, because most of the members of Parliament here, the elected members as they call themselves, say they represent the people. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: And you? Who do you represent? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I wonder what people they are representing. MR. GUZANA: You had better ask yourself that question. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: They never go to the Great Place, they never work with the father of the tribe; and they complained here the other day that they were not given permits to address meetings. Where did they meet the people to tell them they must chase their chiefs into an upper house? Where was that meeting? Can you produce documentary evidence that the people said so? Unless it was a meeting at night, of course, which we do not know about and people had to come across the borders of the Transkei to attend that meeting . The chiefs have all the experience we require. The chief in so far as he is concemed with his tribe could be regarded as a high priest, for when there is a calamity in his tribe the people of the tribe go to the Great Place to consult the chief and he advises them what to do. He might refer to the living God or Qamata or to the ancestors of the tribe, but all we are concemed with is that the catastrophe is averted and nobody else can do it besides the chief. Now the chief has all the experience that he requires because when we speak of the chief, you people who never goto the Great Place, we speak of the chief-in- council and there is never an occasion where the chief is separated from his council. The chiefs were the ori-

was brought to the " inkundla" to be tried. So now why should you worry, hon. members? I think you should abandon this altogether. Remember that the chief has great concem about his people. He is the anchor of the traditional way of living of that tribe and he is the interpreter of the custom of that particular tribe. Now you want to make these laws without your chiefs which will be laws that the chiefs will be ousted from their positions. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member would be well advised to withdraw the motion in order to retain his dignity. for if he is going to work against the chiefs (as one young rat said there, saying he was going to organise against the chiefs) .. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is not true. He didn't say that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , I am not surprised because he comes from Fingoland and the Fingos had no chiefs for over a hundred years. THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, you cannot call an hon. member a rat. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I bow to your ruling, Mr. Chairman, and I withdraw that. Now, multi- racialism - I asy before we go to vote on this you must tell us whether you have abandoned your policy and whether you would like to somersault again, or whether you have retumed to the original Con stitution , because this Constitution was ratified by both Houses of Parliament - that is, the Assembly and the Senate - without amendment.

MR. J.B. NKOSIY ANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are discussing a motion which aims at an upper house and a lower house. What I would like the Assembly to take note of is that the question we are discussing is not found in the tribal customs of the Bantu people. It is also not found in the practices and customs of the Govemment that we are subjects of. This is a question that is known only to the British people, so when we discuss the question of having an upper and a lower house we ought to correlate our arguments with the ideas of the people from whom we have borrowed this idea. After the hon. Paramount Chief of Nyandeni had spoken I was of a mind that no- one would speak after that. The idea of this motion is to the effect that the chiefs should be in an upper house and the elected representatives in a lower house and it is an effort to try and maintain the dignity of the chiefs. One hon. member asked what would happen in the case of a deadlock. I do not see how a deadlock could come about because the members of the lower house are elected both by the chiefs and the people and the chiefs would be in the upper house. Now let us tum to the customs and practices of the Bantu people. During times of war and even in the administrative activities of the tribe the chief is never in the forefront. In the tribal court you find in many cases that the chief is lying carelessly on the side or even away from the court house. The court is conducted by the sub-chiefs and the tribesmen . The chief merely attends and takes particular note of all the important proceedings. In the headman's court, too , it is the people who decide · not the headman himself. It was remarked that in Pondol and the chiefs hadto run away from their people. ( Interjections)

ginal law-makers of the tribe, and you must not think of the laws we are making in this House. There are very few laws - just the custom of the tribe- and whenever anybody broke the custom of the tribe he

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. NKOSIY ANE: I was just saying that the

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chiefs ran away from their people. In other parts of this country the chiefs are under guard by the police. Why is it that the chiefs are under police guard and that the chiefs ran away from their own subjects? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Ask the communists over there. MR. NKOSIYANE: Here is the cause. In cases where the people have legitimate complaints regarding famine and the need for money, then the chief goes tothe Goverment leaving the people behind and saying that the people are satisfied and the chief who receives his stipend from the Govemment is told to say that the people are satisfied. The people therefore begin to despise their chiefs. I want to make it clear why there is always a tug-of-war between the chiefs and the people. It happens that the chief goes to the magistrate's office and agrees to rehabilitation without consulting his people and there is a quarrel between the people and the chief. You find then that the chief runs away from Qamata and Pondoland leaving his people behind and then you find another chief is under guard to protect him from the people. As soon as you deviate from customary practice then you cause trouble among the people. I am going to read to you what was said in the United Nations: "Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of humankind, the advent of a world in which human-beings shall enjoy freedom of belief, freedom of speech, freedom from fear and freedom from want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people . . . ” You want to know why there is always this tug-of-war between the chiefs and the people. Here is the cause: .... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: It is because you want to get rid of your chiefs. MR . NKOSIY ANE: If the chief makes himself a policeman or a detective then his people cannot have faith in him.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now suppose the people who want to murder the chief come from from another area? They are not the subjects of the chief.

MR. NKOSIYANE: No one can come from outside and murder the chief if the people in that area have a love for their chief, for if that happens the people who want to murder that chief will certainly be killed there. The practice in the reserves is that as soon as an outsider comes in the alarm will be raised by the women, but it is usually the people who have differences with their own chief, not people from outside. (Interjections) Now that we are talking about this upper house people have referred to Basutoland and asked what has happened there. I will tell you what has occurred there. When the Basuto people were conducting their affairs according to their custom with England there came into Basutoland the idea of this separate development and whilst we were starving here mealies and grain were being transported into Basutoland. That caused a quarrel among the Basuto people because they said it was a form of bribery. In the meantime the Minister of the Interior stated there was no famine in the Transkei. We are aware that famine brings in its train diseases like tuberculosis.

THE CHAIRMAN : I think hon. members should stick to the motion or else I shall close the debate.

MR . NKOSIY ANE : Mr. Chairman, I am making reference to previous utterances. It is further stated that we cannot have the two houses because in Basutoland there is already some trouble. The trouble in Basutoland is the same as here when a member, the hon. Mr. Siyoyo, was told he would lose chieftainship and he would lose his seat in this House. In fact he was even told he would lose his stipend. When he went back to that party all these things were restored to him and that is what is happening in Basutoland. If we had two houses in this Parliament these incidents would never occur. According to Bantu custom the chiefs just leave their counsellors to go on with the discussion without him. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR . NKOSIYANE : There are members who know nothing about chieftainship , including the hon. the Minister of Education and the Minister of Agriculture. They ought to be leading and helping the chiefs but unfor tunately they are holding the chiefs by the noses and leading them in the direction where there are no people. If you have two Houses of Parliament such members would not have found a seat because they would not fit either in the lower or the upper house. They know nothing about the customs of the people ; they know nothing about chieftainship. It is not the chief who makes laws. It is an old custom and the people merely follow that. An hon. member referred to the fact that we are responsible for the drawing up of the Constitution of this Assembly. The chiefs across the floor and the chiefs on this side chose to say ... • (Interjections) The hon . the Minister of Education taught me at Lovedale. What does he know about politics? And what are the qualifications of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture? Does he know anything about chieftainship? If you knew the customs of the people then you would have an upper house and a lower house. Do you say that about separate development? Who is it that says chieftainship is under separate development? Who is it that has schools expressly for chief's sons? What are they going to leam when they do not leam together with other children of their tribesmen? The Sons of the Transkei · sons who travel about during the night and not in the daytime they are like murderers. We have heard of the prophet, Chief Jongilizwe Dalindyebo. The hon. Paramount Chief will bear me out in what I am saying. He used to say that the chiefs must not go into the Bunga because in the Bunga they would discuss things with the Europeans and say things that are not in conformity with the desires of the people and then the people would not be able to contradict the chiefs. There is a chief behind there who has been given a paper and been told to move amendments. Here is a chief who has been insulted by the people all the time. We do not like those things because these are our chiefs. If the chiefs are in the upper house then they will know that they are the elected members - elected by the chiefs as well as by the electorate, in that when they have accepted separate development they should build a constitution themselves without their subjects. A law was made that there should be 64 chiefs and the people's representatives only 45. The people should have been given an opportunity to make the Constitution, not the chiefs. The people who are responsible for this are like detectives . Where is the independence that you are fighting for to make you happy? Is it the independence of separate development? Is it the independence that is imposed on you without your consent? (Interjections) Unfortunately

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about White members of Parliament? MR . NKOSIY ANE: We shall live with the White people in the same manner as you are sitting with them on that side. They are not going to tell us what we should do and what we should not do.

The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 26th May, 1966. THURSDAY, 26TH MAY , 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Friday , 27th May, 1966, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the liquor laws in so far as they apply to the Transkei.

that it will never come about) the first thing would be that they would bring in a law to introduce multiracialism. I would like it to be clear that we on this side are not fools in giving our support to the Govemment. We are aware that beyond this motion and right behind it there is this desire to bring about a multiracial state. I would like to relate a fable about a young lady who was going to an elder sister's home. She came from Nguniland and was going to Emboland and she was very well dressed indeed.

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OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Tell it to your grandchildren.

CHIEF MATIWANE: As she neared the home of her elder sister she met a fox and when the fox saw how neatly dressed she was he asked if she would not lend her garments to him for a while and the foolish girl agreed, but the fox would not give back the clothes. (Laughter) By this I want to wam the chiefs that if they are foolish enough to accept this motion and go to the upper house they will never be able to come back again. I will quote what I read in a Digest recently : "The chiefs will remain the axis of Bantu nationhood and their political fathers. " This indicates that the very existence of nationhood rests of the chiefs and the stone which the builders are trying to shape is the foundation of the erection. The Government was aware of this and some time ago it established special courses for chiefs at the Tsolo School of Agriculture where the chiefs were trained to fit themselves for this particular situation. The chiefs on the Opposition side have had education although they do not want to be on this side. Thereafter the Government made ready for the education of the progeny of the chiefs. There is an establishment at Tsolo, the Jongilizwe School , and in that school are the chiefs of tomorrow. Take special

I also beg to give notice that on Wednesday, 1st June, 1966, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the control , organisation and administration of the Transkeian Police. PROVISION OF UPPER HOUSE FOR CHIEFS AND LOWER HOUSE FOR ELECTED MEMBERS . The debate was resumed. CHIEF I. MATIWANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the amendment moved by the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland. The people who have been criticizing the hon. the Minister of Education are now strongly upholding the dignity of chiefs. Evidently they are aware that dignity is a term that helps to build the nation and the main factor which is responsible for creating a respectable nation is education. In their multi-racial policy they will be mixing the Europeans with the Africans THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member, try to speak on the amendment. CHIEF MATIWANE: Mr. Chairman , these slight deviations are an effort to show that the policy of multi-racialism is not a policy that can drill a hole. By that I mean that this motion is a cover for the dangerous policy of multi-racialism. If it should come about that there would be an upper house in accordance with this motion (although I am quite certain

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note that we cannot be an exact replica of the Europeans. Where there is something good on their side we shall take that but we shall retain our identity. By this I mean that if the chiefs were moved to a different house then they would die for we are aware that the policy of multi- racialism will creep in. Look what is happening outside · there are tots in all these institutions and the Government at one time was at loggerheads, but as time went on they realised a " tsotsi" element had come in and destroyed the relationship. If the people alone were to form a parliament , trouble would come between the people and the Govemment. First the Govemment has an unchanging law which cannot be altered and where would these people who advocate multi- racialism be? They would then try to seek help from overseas and the Republican army would then watch the borders of our country because we have no army. MR . C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am very sorry that the hon. the Chief Minister is not in because I want somebody who is going to answer intelligibly the questions I am going to put. In his absence I suppose his brother, the hon. the Minister of Justice, will answer. Now every speaker who has spoken on the Govemment side has failed to tell this House why they object to this motion, so the important thing we want to be put forward to this House is the reason why you object that this Assembly must be composed of elected members only. I am very pleased to note that the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland, together with the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Chief Jozana were in favour of this House being composed of elected members when they interviewed Dr. Verwoerd. The hon. the Minister of Education will remember that last year I did actually read a passage from the Hansard to that

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you are doing things that were not done to you when you were a teacher. Evidently you have taken this from some farm area. If it were following the custom of the British people we as Bantu people have never had a parliament. We are merely copying what the British people are doing. If we want to follow what we are copying from that country, let us do it properly. Take the South African Prime Minister, for instance, He and his Cabinet make the laws but he does not go around in the reserves causing trouble because he is an important person. The existence of an upper and lower house would be of benefit to the people.

effect. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where is that committee report? MR DIKO: Now let us get down to ordinary brass tacts. We want facts in this House. Tradition and custom do not come in in this matter. This Assembly is the creation of the Whites and only resembles the westem way of life in the art of making laws. No African, no chief in this House, no paramount chief in this House will tell us that in African history there has ever been a house for making laws , so we find ourselves in this House called upon to make laws. It is only fair and proper that if we are therefore to make laws we must follow the example of Great Britain and the Republic of South Africa. In Great Britain there are two houses; in the Republic of South Africa there are two houses. Take all the colonies of the British Empire or the Commonwealth · all the parliaments of those colonies have two houses. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Is the upper house of the British Parliament identical to the Senate in this country?

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MR. DIKO: I am not talking about identical methods of election; I am talking about two houses. Now what I want to bring to your minds (and you must really study and answer effectively to this point ) is that it was found necessary that there must be two houses when making laws so as to go thoroughly into the laws which will affect the lives of the people. Anybody who has studied civics will know it is absolutely essential to have two houses so that no law is passed hurriedly which is going to affect the lives of the people of that particular state. So the hon. the Minister of Education when standing up to answer must tell us what example he is following in parliamentary procedure in the way of making laws, because all the people who have stood up to speak in this House have only stood up to tell us we are baboons, we are foxes, we are communists. They have not told us exactly why they are opposing two houses in this Legislative Assembly. (Interjections) Now it is only fair and proper that if we are to make laws that are going to affect the people of the Transkei, those laws must be gone into thoroughly before they are passed. Now the hon. Chiefs in this House seem to mistake an important fact. Every chief who wants to be in the Legislative Assembly is permitted to do so in the present motion. If you want to be a member of the Legislative Assembly you will have to be a candidate and go to the electorate to vote for you to come into the lower house. so the question must be put to you : Why are you afraid? What do you suspect, if you can go to the electorate and come to the lower house by the will of the people - by the voice of the people? Shall we suppose you do not trust yourselves? Shall we suppose that you are aware you are being autocratic to the people to such an extent that you know they will never put you into power if you stand for election? Most of the chiefs have spoken most erroneously about the "inkundla" and the "ibandla " . It is perfectly true that in a tribal court the chief only puts up the con· sensus of opinion of the “ibandla" those present at that meeting. What you have failed to bring forward clearly is the fact that in that "inkundla" it is the majority voice that decides the issue. Wherever you go you will find that all citizens, all fools , all clever men, have a right to voice their opinion in the "inkundla" in front of their chief. No one is debared

from speaking. That is the old custom. But you people have changed it because now you have got your tribal authorities or regional authorities which cut out all the main men from deliberating in the "inkundla". I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is not in because he is boasting here that he is the only man who goes to Qaukeni just because he is the only member of the regional authority and he has cut out all the others from going to Qaukeni . In the long run he will find that the loyal members of this House who belong to Qaukeni will be the people that will die with the chief . that will protect the chief. In any event we are the members of that particular Paramount Chief and we shall continue to be the members. I wish him to be told that he was not retumed to this House fairly because his clever mistake was that he stole the votes of his brother, Mr. Walter Madikizela, and he knows that. (Laughter) The voters of Eastem Pondoland will never want him, unless of course they carry on the usual tricks in the way of voting. It is perfectly clear that we want this House to be like all the other houses in Great Britain and in the Republic itself. Here is another point to which I wish to draw the attention of this House. This Assembly many people think is a parliament. It is not a parliament.

GOVERNMENT

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MR . DIKO: I will tell you that this is a temporary creation by the Government of the Republic. It is neither European nor is it African. It is just a thing of its own kind. In reality this is an instrument of oppression and behind this instrument of oppression there is a master mind of six seconded officials. So everything you see here on this table has not been planned by any of the Ministers, but we have accepted this instrument of oppression as a platform forvoicing the grievances and the needs and demands of the African people. What must be clear to the members on the Govemment side is that they are looking forward to the time when they get this instrument ofoppression to independence. We of the multi-racial policy are looking forward to going to Parliament in Cape Town. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That will never happen. How will you get there? THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. DIKO: So this is just a platform for voicing our opinions , for pleading with the Europeans of this country that they must give us full citizenship rights. Now they say I shall never get to Cape Town, but they forget that equally they shall never get independence. You have accused us of changing colour but you forget the hon. Mr. Sinaba has actually put a motion for full independence and you are refusing his motion. In actual fact you yourselves do not want independence and you know independence will never be given to you . All you are only pleased to do in this House is to draw fat sums for yourselves. All the rest of the chiefs are not being paid. Only eight people are being well paid while the rest of the country is starving , THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You only want your own salaries to be raised. MR. DIKO: Yes, we want you to raise our salaries, it is perfectly true. Compare our salaries with

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the members of Parliament in Cape Town. It is a disgrace that a member of the Legislative Assembly is only getting R66 while his counterpart in the Republic is getting over R400. (Interjections) The very fact that this hon. chief beside me here wants to know whether I am a European shows a slave mentality. (Laughter) He is satisfied with what he gets because of his colour. There is no necessity to accept that position of inferiority from anyone just because you are black. (Interjections) Listen! Now while we are in this platform I want to show you how we shall reach there. We say you must allow the rank and file, the ordinary commoners, to be in the parliament because they will speak their minds to Dr. Verwoerd without fear. They will talk without fear, so let them come into this House. Let me give you an example. The hon. Chief Ngcongolo said one day he was getting enough money. Shall we believe he is speaking his mind. He was just trying to please the hon. the Chief Minister, because he might lose his salary if he spoke his mind and asked for more money. To quote another example, the hon. Mr. Pinyana and Chief Tantsi said in this very House that the roads in Tabankulu were gravelled. They said it in this very House, but they know that the mission at Mnceba has persistently asked the Minister to gravel the road, and the storekeeper there also, and you cannot reach the kraal of the hon. Chief Madlanya Tantsi by car today. Now he has said in this very House that all the roads in his district are all right. I am quoting those instances to show that the chief is not the proper person to be in this House because he is afraid to speak his mind, and he should be afraid. I am not blaming you because you are afraid. I myself have changed to a moderate because I am afraid. (Laughter) The proper thing is to allow them to have elected members in this House because they are not afraid. The chiefs must get rid of the idea that the people do not want them here because they want to plot against them. They want to save your skins by putting you in a dignified upper house. Now if you shall continue to refuse going into ar upper house we shall be very sorry for you. (Laughter) Now what is going to happen? I want you to listen very carefully and I am going to continue to be a moderate and sympathize with the chief. (Laughter) When we go out and give our reports to the people we are forced to say that the hon . Chief Ngcongolo refused to have their salaries raised; we shall be forced to say the hon. Chief Madlanya Tantsi refused to have their roads made. Who are we going to say is organising the people against the chief? Is it himself or the reporter of the truth? So I am personally requesting the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland that he must revert back to his original idea when this Constitution was made. (Interjections) I wish the hon. members to listen. Do you hear, hon. Minister of Education? Do you want the people to be taxed more?

our salaries. Now to tell you one other thing, hon. Minister of Education, we shall tell the people that you in your Education Bill hav actually said you are going to force the lady teachers to go to the doctors for suspected pregnancy. Where have you ever heard such a thing? So you are busy organising public opinion (civil servants, teachers, preachers and ministers of religion) very much against yourselves. One last, point - most of the members on the Goverment side have said we speak abusively of the chiefs. May I wam you it is not abusive when we say this place is not the place of the illiterate, of the ignorant man. We want more Guzanas, we want 45 hon. Mr. Guzanas in this House because you have to read books, gazettes, newspapers to understand what law you must make for the people. So those people who say they are not going into an upper house must resign from this House. That is the only thing to do. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall now allow one member from the Govemment side and one from the Opposition and then the mover will reply. CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, a motion has been placed in front of you by the hon. Mr. Jafta of Emboland and there is an amendment by the hon. member for Eastem Pondoland. I rise to support the amendment of the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondol and as I think it is proper I should do so because I am aware that this motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta is not a proper motion to come from the opposite side particularly. I am sure you will note that there are two sections in this Assembly the Govemment party and the Opposition. The amendment by the hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland clearly states that the procedure that is being followed in this Assembly should remain unchanged. As a result of the discussion in this House it is advocated that the chiefs should go to the upper house because they are a dignified group. Indeed I do not find any sincerity in that idea because the Opposition members have constantly said that the chiefs are good and they think highly of them . To go further, they constantly repeat in this House that the chiefs ought not to be members of this Assembly because they are afraid to express the opinions of their own people. On that account I do not think the mover of this motion is really expressing the sincerity of his party or even of himself. Even the Opposition members are aware that I am telling the truth. Quite often in the discussions comparisons have been made between the Transkei and Basutoland. Indeed I find that such comparisons are correct and that the Transkei is on a higher plane than Basutoland. The Govemments of Basutoland and the Transkei were

MR. DIKO: Let me tell you it is most unfortunate that the hon. members are educated but do not read. Did you not read that the Prime Minister of the Republic, Dr. Verwoerd said that to maintain and support Bantustans he was prepared to give R30 million and even more. Now you people have not asked for even R15 million, so he still owes us a lot of money and you are afraid to ask for it. We shall

for a long time controlled from England and the Basuto people have continued to respect their Govemment for as long a time as was stated yesterday in this House. In like manner South Africa also paid due respect to the Govemment of England until they were granted a Govemment of their own in the Republic. After the Republic was given independence we of these Territories are also being given our own Govemment to plan our own affairs. It is on that account therefore that I feel a parallelism between the Transkei and Basutoland is unacceptable be cause the Transkei Govemment only started in 1963. What the Transkei expects is that every member in this Assembly will exert himself to do his own work. Further, Mr. Chairman, you will note what I am saying is perfectly true. As I stand here I am trying

therefore tell the people that you refuse to ask for money from Dr. Verwoerd to raise their salaries and

to satisfy the opinion as it comes from this side in reference to what the hon. Mr. Jafta said, and I know

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You say so, if you want two houses. You must go and tell the people.

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that his party would like to know that, but as you will note, you are constantly putting to order the members of that party, not of this party. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I wish members to read rule 41 properly. I have long been warning you and I will not hesitate to take drastic steps in this matter. Your interjections are unseemly. Carry on, hon. member.

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CHIEF MOSHESH : Much has been said by the Opposition and a very appreciative speech was made by our Paramount Chief of Westem Pondoland. I do not think there is any political inference in this but he mentioned that the Basutos have a great respect for their chiefs. I think it must be disappointing to him to find himself in a party which constantly says that the chiefs are fools and that they know nothing. I fail to see how any progress would be made by this House if the elected members were left alone here because it is quite evident that if they did not have some of the chiefs; as they have on the Opposition side, then there would be great trouble. We know very well that if we have to go to the upper house and leave the elected members to themselves in the lower house there will only be quarrelling and fighting. If they insult us when we are among them, how much more would they do so when we were away from them. It has been said here that the chiefs do not do anything. They merely sit and listen. It has further been said that the chiefs are not representative of the people in this Assembly and that is why the people do not want them here. The electorate of the Transkei elected you to come and work with your chiefs in this House, to help make the laws they are making and also that you may be the expression of their own opinion as you have been doing. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Who elected you?

CHIEF MOSHESH: I was not elected · I want you to know that I am a chief. Possibly you do not know I am a chief. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: You don't look like one. How many subjects have you? CHIEF MOSHESH: You are constantly making these remarks and I will take no notice of what you are saying. You indicated, Mr. Chairman , that I would be the last speaker and I will be brief. I will go on to prove to theOpposition why it is not possible for this motion to go through. I would like, however, to give the Opposition the few minutes that are left on this motion. If the last speaker is a gentleman he will centainly thank me. If not, then carry on in the manner you have been.

MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I am very grateful through you to the last speaker on the Govemment side who has given me the balance of his time of fifteen minutes. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Half a minute. MR. GUZANA: You will therefore realise, Mr. Chairman, that I shall be entitled to speak until we adjoum for lunch. (Laughter) Indeed you will enjoy your lunch because what I am going to say now is palatable to your minds. The motion seeks to have established in this Assembly a lower house and an upper house. The matter is purely constitutional and

does not involve questions of policy, so that whether the members of this House be supporters of "apartheid" or supporters of multi-racialism is not a matter in issue. Probably this is a revelation to the members on the Govemment side that they have a lower house and an upper house and still follow the policy of "apartheid" . In other words, the constitutional change requested does not affect the policy of whatever party is in power. It is therefore irrelevant for any member to bring in an augument on policy in this discussion. The Constitution Act of the Transkei excludes the amendment, repeal or substitution of this Act from the powers that can be exercised by this Legislative Assembly. In other words, this House has no power to make an amendment in the principal Act. In other words, neither the Govemment party nor the Opposition party have the power to change the Act or to impede an attempt to change the Act. It would therefore appear to me that this House may make a recommendation for an amendment of the Act, or a body outside this House may make representations to the Republican Govemment for an amendment of the Act. It is not the exclusive right of this Assembly to make such a request. That is the point I am making. If the governing party were to seek to have an amendment made in this Act it could make representations to the Republican Government with out consulting the Opposition , and I submit that is the position even if the Opposition sought to have that amendment made. The Opposition is merely bringing this matter before the Assembly and paying the Assembly that courtesy, and that does not mean that it cannot make representations direct to the Republican Govemment without the consent of this House, for there is nothing to prevent them constitutionally from doing that. I want therefore to disabuse the Govemment supporters from the idea that they will continue to block this aspiration for ever. They have neither the power nor the right to do it and we only ask them to assist us in making this representation, but they think that because they are in the majority they are all-powerful on this particular question. I want them to know they are not. This request to have this constitutional change is consistent with all govemments in democratic countries. You have been referred to the govemments of various countries in the world where there is an upper house and a lower house, and an hon. member from this side of the House has indicated how essential it is that legislation should go through at a very slow pace so that nothing wrong is allowed to slip by and become law. Thus a bill which has gonethrough the lower house, having gone through the first, second and third reading, will similarly be considered by the upper house and that assures everybody that nothing goes through which is wrong and which could have been put right whilst the bill goes through this slow mill of meticulous examination by two Houses of Parliament. If indeed the chiefs seek their subjects to be ruled and govemed properly then at least they should lend their hand to the establishment of machinery of legislation that will make certain that the right laws apply in the country. My suspicion is that their objection to the creation of an upper house arises from purely personal and pecuniary motives. To look at the pecuniary motive first of all , most chiefs think that they are receiving better emoluments because they happen to be members of the Legislative Assembly, but if that is so they will continue to draw their allowances even if they are members of the Senate, so that there is no pecuniary threat to them if an upper house is created. But indeed this side of the House condemns the fact that chiefs who come to the Legislative Assembly should

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eam more than the chiefs who do not come to the Legislative Assembly. Our contention is that chiefs should draw a fixed salary, irrespective of whether they come to the Legislative Assembly or not, and that if there is going to be any difference in the actual money received it will only be in respect of allowances given to a chief who happens to be a member of the legislative body · that is, he will get a sessional allowance, for instance. Thus the chief who is at home will receive a salary or stipend or whatever you want to call it, which is commensurate with his position as a chief, not a salary which he draws because he is a member of the Legislative Assembly. The Opposition has proved its bona fides on this point because it sought to have consolidated into the salaries of the chiefs the money which is earmarked for gifts, entertainment and donations to chiefs, and if the chiefs would agree to have such an arrangement where their salaries are guaranteed irrespective of membership of the Legislative Assembly then the pecuniary motive which is responsible for antagonism to this motion will disappear. The other motive is merely a personal one. Most chiefs think that if they are excluded from the lower house (the legislative body) they will be relegated into a house where they will just rot. I must tell the chiefs that the upper house is as essential to proper legislation as the lower house, because if it were not essential why should Great Britain still retain such a house? Let us relate the function of the upper house to what the chief does in his " inkundla" or "iba-

house accept the decision of the chiefs all the time? MR. GUZANA: More likely than not the decision of the chief is based on what the "ibandla" has said. in other words, the decision of the chief and the judgement of the chief is the embodiment of the aspirations expressed by the "ibandla" and to that extent .. • • (Interjections) It is not likely that the chief's announcement or judgement is going to be inconsistent with the wishes of the people. Thus again, to draw the same parallel, the lower house expresses the wishes of the people; these are embodied in a bill which goes to the upper house, and if the chiefs are going to perform the function that is performed by the chief in relation to his " ibandla" , he will express in his final "yes" or in his final endorsement of the bill the wishes of his own people. There is therefore very little chance of a difference existing or arising between the upper house of chiefs and the lower house of representatives. Now it has been suggested that chiefs have been called fools and baboons and things like that, and one hon. member on the Govemment side in arguing against this motion asked how the chiefs would be wise

Are they fools or are they not fools? Are they stupid; are they baboons? Do they say themselves that they are baboons and fools? If I should say a chief is a fool , does that mean that the chief is indeed a fool? (Interjections) I would like to hear those interjections because I would like to reply to them. My question is: If I call a chief a fool , is he a fool? I think the chiefs should disabuse themselves of the idea

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We say their authority is undermined .

"ibandla", then the chief at the end of it all gives his observations and gives his decision. Now you can take the lower house of a legislative body as the "ibandla" which discusses the matter, makes amendments to the laws, pulls the sections apart and rebuilds them. Thereafter this is passed on to the upper house and the Assembly, just as the " ibandla" does, hands over to the chief; and just as the chief will have his own observations as to the decision of the "ibandla", so will the Senate by way of review have its own observations of the decisions of the lower house. Just as the decision of the chief is a wise one after he has heard what the "ibandla" has

MR. GUZANA: If they are wise they will continue to be wise even if they are called fools. Now the upper house is a house of wisdom, a house of experience. It is a house where men with sane minds sit down and consider legislation coming from the lower house, and when we raise the chiefs to the upper house we are in effect conceding that they have the intelligence, that they have the knowledge, that they have the wisdom to sit in review over the legislation coming from the lower house. How can we therefore be charged with saying that the chiefs are fools?

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enough to review legislation since they are fools now. Whether they be fools or called fools now makes no difference. Now I want to ask the chiefs :

ndla", which has been canvassed here by Govemment members and particularly by chiefs - that the chief usually summarizes what the members of his "ibandla" have discussed ; that after the "ibandla" has discussed a matter and the counsellors of the chiefs have discussed the matter, then the chief is given a resumé, a summary of what took place at the "ibandla" . Altematively the chief may have sat in to listen to the arguments and the discussion at the

done on a given issue, so will the review of the legislation from the lower house by the upper house be a wise one. Can it therefore be suggested that the creation of an upper house is something which will be completely divorced from what happens between the "ibandla" and the chiet? It you relate the position of the upper house to the position of the chief and relate the position of the lower house to the position of the "ibandla" then you have no difficulty. Therefore the elevation of the chiefs into an upper house does not in any way undermine their position. The present set-up is such as brings the chief into the "ibandla" where the chief enters into the discussion , supports one side and opposes the other side in the "ibandla", and yet the chief should never be partisan at any time. He comes with a decision that will satisfy the majority of his people. That is why we seek to have the chiefs removed from a house that is partisan.

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that they will be fools because somebody else calls them fools.

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THE CHAIRMAN : Your time is up. MR . GUZANA: I am very sorry, Mr. Chairman, I had quite a lot to say on this motion and we cannot use that ten minutes in any other way. Can I have just five more minutes? I was given extra time by the hon. member across the floor. I make this a special request. Now, Sir, the next question • ..

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The time is up, Mr. Chairman. (Laughter)

E.C 252 THE CHAIRMAN : Just one more sentence.

MR. GUZANA: Thank you, Sir. The next question is whether or not in view of our submissions , regard being had to the position of elevation to which the chiefs will be raised when they are going to the upper house ...

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is demotion.

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THE CHAIRMAN : Time ! MR. GUZANA: I have not finished my sentence , Mr. Chairman.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: What about the school that has been taken away from the sons of commoners?

THE CHAIRMAN : Finish it, then. MR. GUZANA: The question is whether there shall be any advantage drawn from that position in view of the fact that legislation coming from the lower house has to go to the upper house of chiefs, which will review such legislation to the extent that nothing will go through by way of law unless ...

i THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You fell into a trap, Mr. Chairman. (Laughter)

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and until it has gone MR. GUZANA: · through the upper house of review and, having been passed by that house, it is an embodiment of the sentiments expressed by the lower house - embodying the aspirations of the people expressed by the members of the Legislative Assembly and endorsed by the hereditary leaders of the upper house and submitted to the State President for signature.

The debate was adjoumed. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. m

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did exist that there should be two houses , in any case it is too early for that. If it should come into existence at some future date, even then we can see no reason for separating the chiefs from the commoners .

The debate on an upper house for chiefs and a lower house for elected members was resumed.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, let me first remove some misconceptions from the minds of some of the hon. members. I refer to the fact that they seem to think that as I bought this farm I grew up on farms and am therefore a squatter. My father was a chief counsellor of the Bele clan of Ndongeni's house and therefore I have as much authority to debate this motion as any other member. Now that I have put this right I want to say that the proposal , which we oppose, is that it should be the chiefs who are to be placed in an upper house. We concede that there are two houses in most parliaments. There are two houses in England as a result of the barons being removed from the House of Commons. In this country there is no chieftainship institution among the White people , therefore the Senate of this country is really made up according to the age of the members. In America again there are no chiefs but there are two houses. The proposal that the chiefs should be removed from this Chamber leaves us suspicious. As far as we know the Opposition members have been elected by the people in order that they should support this Constitution and because they say they are educated they have made themselves jackals and have formed themselves into anOpposition. MR. C.S. MDA: But that was said by your leader when he said if he was defeated in the election for Chief Minister he would form an Opposition. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You were elected to uphold the Constitution. As a matter of fact I attended a meeting at which the hon. Mr. Mnyila and the late Mr. Zokwe were told in no uncertain terms that they had been elected to support the Chief Minister. (Interjections) Even if the idea

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We want to give them separate education so that you will not point your fingers at them and call them fools.

MR. RAJUILI: So you feel if they come here they should not be in this House but in an upper house? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Your idea of getting rid of the chiefs reminds me of the butcherbird. When a butcher-bird comes across a locust he says: All right, I am going to carry you. Even though you can fly I will lift you up. Then it goes and impales the locust on a thom. That is what you want to do with our chiefs. There seems to be some disagreement in regard to the position of a chief and his court . I noticed today that my hon . friend across the floor has changed his mind and has placed the chief in a separate position in relation to the court. If I remember correctly his remarks were to the effect that the chief does not even attend the court but is usually away. A chief is a leader of the people. What you want to do is to make him a rubber stamp. You want this country to be led by you. As a matter of fact, if the chiefs were not present in this Legislative Assembly , this Transkei of ours would have been in danger by now. The chiefs act as anchors. If they were not here all kinds of races would be allowed into this Chamber. From what we read in the Press there are commuprobably they nists who wander about the country are your communist companions whom you wish to introduce into this House. If that happened we should see the downfall of the Transkei . I think if this country ever does allow the establishment of two houses we should not create a line of demarcation and place the chiefs in a house of their own. I am sure if my hon. friend, the Paramount Chief, were to be in the upper house we would talk some sense, but you cannot separate the chiefs just for your own benefit. Thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the mover of this motion I rise to reply. Much ground has already been covered and much of what I was going to say has been stated by the other speakers. There is therefore not much need for me to go over the ground again . The truth is (and I would like to stress it) that this motion is spoken of widely among the people of the Transkei . Wherever the people are aware that there is a Legislative Assembly in Umtata they keep asking us why things are not as they should be. They note that the elected members are few and are often out-voted by the chiefs. The people who hold this opinion realise that all parliaments are representative of the opinion of the people and this Parliament ought to follow that procedure also . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture said I had made a mistake in saying there are more chiefs than elected members . I would like to say that what I said is the truth and no one can deny it. The chiefs evidently support the Government side because they are more interested in their remunerations than in the interests of the people , whereas we are representative of the electorate. He

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to him that I did go over the same ground and that I have personal knowledge of the chiefs in those countries. In all native courts there is agreement on this point - that when the chief summarizes the court's findings he usually puts it thus : The court holds this . He never says: I hold this . My belief is that the reason for your opposition to this motion is that you are aware that the chiefs are very much underpaid. They are starving. On that account they are keen to watch the remuneration paid to them rather than the rights of the people. Let the chiefs note that they cannot be both chief and commoner. The chiefs are uplifted by the people. In this Assembly we know that the chiefs ought to be on a different level . To make this clear I would make this illustration : This sheet of paper is white, but if the chief should say it is black they will all say it is black because they are merely watching their own personal interests. I have already stated that much ground has been covered and properly put before the House as clearly as possible. I know well that when we resort to voting we shall be beaten, because even though the truth is plain you will hold that it is not so and that in this court it is not the truth that is being put before the people but only the opinions of the opposite side. (Interjections) This motion that there should be two houses is a reasonable motion . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please .

MR. JAFTA: The object of this motion is to put the chiefs in a proper and dignified position . Our desire is that this Parliament should be modelled on the lines of all other parliaments. with those words, Sir, I conclude my address .

THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon . Mr. Jafta, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau. I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the motion. The retention of the words proposed to be deleted was lost by 41 votes to 62. The substitution of the proposed words was carried by 62 votes to 41.

The motion as amended was carried by 62 votes to 41.

dec SOUTHERN SESOTHO AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE IN TRANSKEI .

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. members , I move:-

Chairman

and hon.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making Southern Sesotho one of the official languages in the Transkei ." Mr. Chairman, I use the language I am using because of the importance of the motion before us. As this is a matter which touches the feeling of the nation I would like to make a request that the discussion on this motion be lifted out of party politics. You will note , Sir, that last year this motion appeared, although in a lower position on the order paper. I would like to request that a select committee be appointed in this House to discuss the matter out of the political field and to make recommendations to this House. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to second the motion by my subject. (Laughter)

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further asked what we want in this House , and whether we support or oppose separate development. The reply is that we do not support separate development and I would likenthis Assembly to a wayside tent where the people who are marching on erect a little rest room. The purpose of this wayside inn is to help us march forward. In saying this I am trying to correct the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he said we were supporting separate development. With reference to the allusion that was made by those who are acquainted with the procedure in the chief's court , we are aware that whenever a chief summarizes he uses this procedure and he usually expresses it this way: My court sees things in this manner. He never says: I think things should be like this or that. I want you to take note of the fact that he never says "I" , but he says "the court" . That indicates that what the chief says is the consensus of opinion of his people. All those acquainted with the procedure in the chief's court will bear witness to that. He also referred to overseas countries such as Kenya, Tanzania and Buganda where the chiefs did not follow the procedure that we are following. I will make it clear

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E Agreed that a select committee be appointed to consider the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I propose that the committee should be appointed tomorrow because the Leader of the Opposition has to consult with the leader of the Government party on the personnel of that committee.

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Agreed to.

L THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , before we go ahead with the next item on the agenda I wish to suggest to you, because you are the person who has to make a ruling on this matter, that on all these motions only three speakers should speak on each side of the House. There are about 41 motions on the agenda and if we continue to have so many speakers as we had in the motion which has just been disposed of it means this House will only consider about four or five of them before it rises on the 17th June. You will note that in the discussion on Motion 39 the speakers were just repeating what had already been put forward by the previous speakers. I submit that three speakers are sufficient to put forward in a clear manner what the intention of the motion is. I would suggest you do not allow more than three speakers on each side because we will be wasting our time. We have several bills to be considered by this House . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. mover?

K.M.

GUZANA:

Does that include the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, the mover will be the fourth on the side of the motion. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, one would have thought this would have been referred to the business committee , but in view of the fact that it has been brought to the House I think it is necessary for the respective parties to consult in their res-

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pective caucuses. As any decision will not affect the discussion on this particular motion I do not think any loss of time will be incurred by delaying a decision until tomorrow morning when the respective parties shall have met in their caucus rooms. When we submit their decisions you will be in a position to know what their feeling is and will be in a position to make a wise ruling on the matter. THE CHAIRMAN: Do you think I should allow more speakers on the next motion? MR. GUZANA: Let me explain , Mr. Chairman. It is now 3.05 . At 3.35 the mover shall have spoken, then there will be a speaker from the Government side up to 4 p.m. and from 4 p.m. to 4.15 or 4.20 we shall have adjourned for tea. Then there will just be another speaker before you adjourn for the day, Sir. In other words, three people shall have spoken which is less than the number which it is sought to limit the speakers to, and then by tomorrow morning we shall be able to indicate to you what we would like done and you will make your ruling. Whatever you are inclined towards at this present moment , it will not be affected adversely by allowing us the time to decide and make a suggestion to you, Sir. THE CHAIRMAN: Very well, we proceed with the next motion.

shall now

SUSPENSION OF REHABILITATION SCHEME . MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I move the motion standing in my name:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of suspending the rehabilitation scheme until areas already under the said scheme have been completely done .'"" In my earnest approach to this motion , which indeed has now become a noxious weed in the minds of the people, I will draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Europeans are clever people . As industries grew up in the big cities they became aware that the market of cheap labour from the African Territories would be affected. With that foresight they decided to legislate to keep that cheap market open. Among the laws they legislated was the creation of these zoological gardens which we call rehabilitation today, and later the influx control regulations were also brought into operation. Now with the influx control no one has the liberty of going to sell his labour at the best possible market in any area, so these labour bureau offices had to be created to have people recruited to places which were not places of their own choice, and they have to have permits to get there . The introduction of rehabilitation as at present obtaining meant culling of stock and the arable units got minimized and people had to starve. Naturally they could not live long in those zoological gardens as obtaining today. They had to accept what they were offered in those labour bureaux. I wish to point out that nobody with a progressive mind is opposed to rehabilitation in its true meaning because the land has to be rehabilitated , but what happens is this : After the people have been promised new schools , windmills, boreholes, clinics and plantations they accept rehabilitation but once they are fenced in hardly any of those amenities that are promised are done. You will find a big area with, say, one windmill, no clinic, no school , no borehole - just that

fencing. Now these people, if you address meetings in the so-called rehabilitated areas , confront you with questions as to where are the new schools, windmills , plantations, clinics that were promised. Mind you, the promises go further to say that your wives will have it sweet , that they will be nice and round. They will be a great attraction because they have all the necessary amenities within easy reach . (Laughter) Now what happens? It is merely that as soon as the area is rehabilitated a ranger takes over the powers of whoever is the headman of that particu ar location. There are agricultural officers also who play a very important part in the affairs of the rehabilitated location . Now this motion seeks to request the Goverment to suspend rehabilitating more areas until the job that has been promised on those that have already accepted it have been completed. Let us see a fully rehabilitated area so that we can see what rehabilitation really means. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Go to Nqamakwe. MR. ZIBI : Instead of spending more money in buying more wire fencing materials , rather put up clinics and all the other things you promised us. There are cases where a location is removed from the area where the school is and the children are now expected to travel for miles on sometimes dangerous roads to that school, because there is no other school available. In an area such as Maluti region you find that there is little flat land and, as a result of the application of the rehabilitation scheme as at present obtaining, it means the area has lost a lot of the arable land and there is little fertile land left. Because of the influx control people cannot go to the big towns to find jobs which would pay them well, so that now that cheap market that was envisaged by the European Governments keeps on because those poor chaps have to go to a place not of their own choice , but to a place of the choice of the recruiters . Is rehabilitation in the minds of the Government just fencing people in and placing them in that zoological garden and doing nothing for the people? I happen to know that in a couple of locations in the Mount Fletcher district, one of them is in the tenth year of rehabilitation and practically nothing has been done except just fencing them in. In Chief Lebenya's area the people have been removed from the school and nothing has been done to put up a new school. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Where did you see that? MR. ZIBI: This motion therefore requests the Government to suspend rehabilitation in other areas until they have completely rehabilitated the areas which have already accepted the scheme , because as it is now people want to get out of these zoological gardens . They are not getting any of the amenities they were promised and I am sure it is not only in that area where people are complaining. As we discuss the motion further I am sure there are many other regions that have perhaps similar complaints. You find the agricultural officers with hardly any knowledge taking over the area. They are the people who , as soon as the people have accepted rehabilitation , run the whole show with the rangers . The chief and headman are nothing and in some cases they will remove human-beings from a suitable spot for human-beings and put in plantations and trees. Finally , the commonage given to these people when they have moved is much too small in comparison with what

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they had before they were moved. I therefore pray that the Minister concemed sees the location already under rehabilitation through fully..Let us see what they mean by rehabilitation, lest we think that the whole idea is to have people settled like animals in these zoological gardens .

has almost been fully rehabilitated. We agreed that we should have the whole area rehabilitated and it there is any area that has not yet been done it is because the workers have not had time. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is our objection. MR. SIHELE : We are not people who do not wish to progress, like those people from Tembuland. (Interjections) These people maintain we must mark time because they do not want any progress.

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the motion. MR. E.G. SIHELE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to move this amendment to the motion: That all the words after "should" in the original motion be deleted and substituted with the following words:-

S OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No one said that. THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

"In view of the pressing need of the reclamation of the soil , exert all its resources to the utmost to reclaim the land of the Transkei within the shortest possible time in those areas that have applied for it. " Mr. Chairman, it will be remembered that it was agreed that rehabilitation be carried out where the people have applied for it . I also wish it to be remembered that there are many places which have accepted rehabilitation . According to the motion it would appear that it is desired that the people who have already applied for rehabilitation may not be rehabilitated.

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MR. SIHELE : I have visited Engcobo where the people and the stock are in difficulties because that area has not been rehabilitated. (Interjections) You have completed your work of misleading the people for you are advisingthem in areas that have accepted rehabilitation not to move. Here is a person who is encouraging people not to accept rehabilitation. Mr. Chairman, I have now discovered the person.... MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman...

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THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, hon . member. Let the interpreter finish the sentence .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No. MR. SIHELE: In other words, even the places which apply for rehabilitation should not be rehabilitated . OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, you should listen properly. MR. SIHELE: They deny it, Mr. Chairman, but I would appeal to the House to listen to what I am saying. The motion before us says that the rehabilitation should not proceed in other areas that have not been rehabilitated. I maintain that the parts that have asked for it should be rehabilitated .

MR. SIHELE: ...the person who is persuading the people at Qitsi not to move from that area.

MR. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman , it appears now that when the speaker finished his last sentence he did not bring out what he said previously. What he said when I drew your attention was that "this is the man who has caused the people of Qitsi to protest against rehabilitation."

15 THE CHAIRMAN : It appeared to me that he said "I have seen this person " . I do not think he said "such-and- such a person " . That is why I ask you not to make all this noise because we cannot record the speeches properly. Carry on.

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THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute , hon. member, I do not quite follow you . You are supporting the motion.

MR. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I would like to make it very clear that Qitsi area has accepted rehabilitation , although many of you

MR. SIHELE: I would like you, Mr. Chairman, also to listen carefully to what I am saying so you may understand me. I say the rehabilitation should proceed in the manner in which the officers who carry out this rehabilitation are doing it at the present moment. They should not rehabilitate other areas unless they agree to do so . As employees who know and understand their work let us accept that they know and understand what they are doing. (Interjections) I do not agree that the rehabilitating officer should be told not to proceed with the rehabilitation until a later date. Seeing that the mover of the motion lives in Johannesburg what does he know about what is being done? If the people at Tsomo feel that rehabilitation should proceed, who can stop them, for the rehabilitation plans cover the whole Transkei? If the rehabilitation scheme is now going on in Emboland who will stop them from going to Pondoland to work there? What you are really after is that you do not want the rehabilitation scheme at all. You ask whether any area has yet been fully rehabilitated . Letme tell you that the whole of Rode, including Qamata,

are not aware of that. It was accepted by the people and by the whole area and thereafter a few individuals were visited by agitators and encouraged not to move from the areas which had always been fenced in. This is what I want the people to take note of, and also very many members who get away from what has been said in this House. When a scheme has been accepted by the majority in a location, one or two people have no right to refuse. All the people ought to do what the majority of the location has agreed to. The trouble you are referring to is because there are people in the area who ought not to be resident there. I appeal to this House not to support those who say that the rehabilitation should not be carried out. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is not what we said. Read the motion . Sit down.

MR. SIHELE: We are discussing a very important issue and the representatives of the people are not prepared to listen to what we are saying. The hon. member is referring to only eight home-

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steads as against the whole area which has acceptEed the scheme . Those who object were instigated to do so by certain people. Mr. Chairman, I am standing up to request the House not to accept this motion because it will delay very important work that is being carried out by the Department of Agriculture. Already a number of implements have been bought to erect fences and to dig boreholes with a view to carrying on the scheme. Here is a man who comes from quite a different area from that which the people come from who have asked for rehabilitation , and he tells the people they must not go on with what they are asking for. Where did he get this opinion from, because according to this motion what he says covers the whole of the Transkei? Where did he get the right to come

and many promises are never fulfilled. Everything, particularly fencing and contouring, is abandoned; incomplete. If the beasts or any of the small stock trespasses, the owner of such is always charged exorbitant fines. Nobody is as foolish as to be obscurant or to fight against prosperity. Not a single sane African man would ever resist accepting the rehabilitation scheme if the rehabilitation scheme would be implemented with satisfaction. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I wish you were sincere in what you are saying. MR. NOGCANTSI : Because of numerous injustices that have been perpetrated in the already rehabilitated areas this has been met with very

and express this opinion in the Assembly? On that understandI account do not. quite beck what this I motion meant byI say is therefore (Interjections)

strong disapproval . Even historically you will find that most of the troubles arose from the land question . Only those people who were the first to accept rehabilitation are usually alloted kraal and land sites. It has no prospect for their posterity. Even such land or kraal allotments are usually diminished. In other words, this can be easily construed as the creation of labour camps because most of our people are still depending upon primitive economy. No one would dare to say that the land · in fact, the bank of any man should be interfered with. Even the White or advanced people would fight if their moneys from the bank would be diminished in any way. That is why the killing of any chief who goes against the will of the people is accepted as traditional. (Interjections) Just from mere gumption you will find that if you just dispose of one man instead of killing a lot of people it is justifiable.

will sit down aware, however, that this Assembly will not take heed of people who do not wish for progress. All I know is that these people are trying advancement and progress in this 20 to block all country .

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MR . M.H. CANCA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I stand up to second the amendment. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I stand up to second the motion and I am pleading with all the small minds that they should use their heads instead of their hands in this matter, and also to use their brains instead of their brawns. (Laughter) Although it has been said on various occasions that the reha-

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bilitation scheme is not enforced, there has been no symbol practically that it is not being enforced. There have been many deaths that have resulted from those people who are opposed to the implementation of rehabilitation . Even the continued retention of the odious Proclamation R.400 is the evidence. One would liken this rehabilitation scheme to this Bantustan because those rehabilitated areas are just like small Bantustans . I have made mention on several occasions that those who accept rehabilitation scheme do so only out of fear of Proclamation R.400. Further, they accept it because they know that they belong to a conquered race, because once they refuse to accept it you will find there will be an armed squad coming, in fact, to intimidate them. Further, it has become a source of living to the calumniators. What is worrying the people, particularly those who have accepted the scheme, is that nothing has been completely done. A lot of liars have made a living on this rehabilitation scheme. Many people have been promised compensation for being displaced from their areas and being settled in other parts of the area, but that is hardly · in fact it is seldom achieved in any place , and so the places which have not been rehabilitated yet are not attracted to those places which have already been rehaeilitated . Even the filling of posts, particularly for those who are administering the rehabilitated areas, is done so that the top posts are being filled by those who are uneducated. You will find that most of the poor and illiterate Whites are occupying the top posts. Further, you will find that in the meadows , particularly in the paddocks, the grass that has grown luxuriantly will be burnt, the reason for burning it being always said to be that the grass is infested with snakes. Further, you will find that whoever is refusing to accept rehabilitation (particularly a chief) has his stipend withheld . He is either threatened with expulsion or imprisonment

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: Is that why you want to kill me? (Laughter) MR. NOGCANTSI: There have been dams and there have been many projects that have been promised to the people and you will only find one materializing. If these rural locations were to be compared with the urban locations you would find that they have no outlet for the labour of the inhabitants. I have travelled throughout the Transkei and not found a single area which is prosperous as a result of accepting rehabilitation . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Where have you travelled? You have only been to Grahamstown. (Laughter) MR. NOGCANTSI : This is due primarily to the lack of industries to absorb the labour of the inhabitants. Although there has been no data to show the lack of employment you will find that in the majority of cases there are many deaths that are occurring in those rehabilitated areas. Further, the chiefs have no power and they are dependent upon the rangers and the magistrates. The magistrates themselves are dependent upon the Secre taries and those people will try to perpetrate this evil even against the wishes of the majority of the people. You will find that when this scheme is being introduced , first of all there will be a meeting when the males are in the labour centres . Miraculously the meeting will be composed of a majority of women and you know in African custom that women do not usually attend meetings , but in order to introduce this surreptitiously the women are usually invited and imperceptibly this has been shown in many documents that this is being done in order to create room for the repatriated and displaced Transkei ans from the labour centres . You will find that when you visit these areas there are many land complaints and the chiefs there are are usually wielding dictatorial powers. Usually,

ANNOUNCEMENT.

if I were to give an example to the small minds in this House....

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have to announce that on Monday, 30th May, 1966 , there will be no sitting of this Assembly and that the House will adjourn this afternoon at 3 pm. for a short recess until Wednesday, 1st June, when all the members will be expected to be in their seats at 11 a.m.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : A small mind giving advice to other small minds . (Laughter) MR . NOGCANTSI: ....an animal usually shows his satisfaction by feelings. Animals usually cry and, in fact, they sometimes show certain gestures . They want to express the feelings of the people by killing the one who wants to accept this. (Laughter) Most of the chiefs , even those who have accepted the scheme, whenever they have been met alone usually show the one who is meeting them that they are never satisfied with the scheme.

SOUTHERN SESOTHO AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE IN TRANSKEI : APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Under pressure from people like you. MR. NOGCANTSI: This is because they are always promised Utopia or the moon . (Laughter) No merit is shown , particularly to the agricultural officers . Everything done is done on favour. No one can be encouraged to accept rehabilitation as long as it is fraught with evils and injustice . There is no place that has been shown to be a show-place because the system of the scheme is haphazard and unsystematic. Even the separate development apostles, whenever they are in those areas they usually shelve this question of rehabilitation . It is one question that we have been wrangling over with the Governing party as we have all along been advocating that we were the champions that the scheme should be accepted by those who were willing to accept it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You were champions of those who did not wish to accept it. Put it that way . MR . NOGCANTSI : Usually when we come out of this Room they usually say they are in favour of it and yet the legislation which is enacted in this House is always to the effect that it should be enforced by hook or by crook. All the legislation that has been passed has that implied in it, but this enforcement is usually concealed because it is being implied in the · I wonder what to call it. In other words , there are sanctions applied against those who do not wish to accept it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We will miss you when you have gone. (Laughter) MR . NOGCANTSI : I am sorry the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is not here because if he were present I would pose this question to him : I would have wanted to know as to whether his own kraal site has been rehabilitated or fenced in and also his land allotment , as to whether it has been fenced in. (Laughter) I would also have liked to find out whether there are dams or boreholes next to his place. To give you an answer to these questions, I would say that those do not exist in Pondoland. He is preaching in order to get his living because this is the only means of living particularly for the ignorant. (Laughter) To us, we do not care where we go because we know we have ways and means of living. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Friday, 27th May , 1966. FRIDAY, 27TH MAY, 1966.

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in terms of the resolution on Motion No. 8 which was passed in this House yesterday , I have appointed the following members to form a select committee to deal with that motion:The Chief Minister (Chairman ), the Minister of Education , Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau, Chief Neo Sibi , Mr M.H. Canca , Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu, Rev. B.S. Rajuili , Mr. H.H. Zibi , Mr. K.M. N. Guzana and E.B. Mhlahlo. That committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 9 a.m on Wednesday morning. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members, I want to point out to the House that I indulged the hon . Mr. Rajuili in this matter. All the matters on the order paper are done as they are written there . I point this out so that if I refuse another day it will not be said that I have created a precedent. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , yesterday it was suggested by the hon. the Chief Minister that we should limit the number of speakers to motions to three on each side of the House with a view to getting through most of the motions . This side of the House has decided to co-operate in this regard and the three speakers to a motion will include the mover, who has the right to reply. I do not know what the caucus on the Govemment side has decided . PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Limit the time to twenty minutes .

MR. GUZANA: We have limited the speakers that their time is already limited to thirty minutes, so we cannot further limit a limited time. (Laughter) SO

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I made this suggestion in order to have the maximum number of speakers on contentious subjects , but I hope the Chairman will have a discretion , where the matter is frivolous , to cut it down to one speaker from each side. For example, there are road matters here which should be dealt with by regional authorities who should make representations to the Department concemed. You will note , Sir , that the business committee has given preference to certain motions which they feel should have precedence , The rest of them should just be given one or two speakers each side in order to dispose of about three or four motions a day, This is not a House to make representations to the various departments . The members on the other side should know their duty . Their duty is to go to the Ministers and make representations for their respective constituencies

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but because they are not acquianted with the relationship between the members of the Legislative Assembly and the Ministers they think they must bring even matters of no importance to this House. The House we have here is a legislature - that is, a body to make laws and not a Bunga. MR . N.C. NOGCANTSI : Are you aware of the fact that some of the Cabinet Ministers are reluctant to be consulted on some matters? THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, I do not think any of the Ministers would be reluctant to advise any of the members, particularly of the Assembly. We treat this Parliament as a very responsible body so if they come forward to our offices we have to take all their representations as matters of importance . But you do not know your duties. You have the idea that if anyone of you goes to the Chief Minister's office then he is a stooge and is selling the Opposition to the Government party. You are behind the times. Some of you are afraid of coming to our offices in case they are censured by members of the Opposition, and as a result you bring forward frivolous matters for us to discuss here. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman .

section 1 (i) this type of school · that is , the agricultural school - means a school providing education in agricultural and allied subjects up to a certain form not exceeding the fifth form, as the Secretary may decide in any particular case. The type of school mentioned here will enable students and pupils to obtain the junior and/or senior certificate as obtainable in the Government schools , but with an agricultural bias. Obviously therefore the Tsolo Agricultural College is excluded as it does not offer courses up to junior and/or senior certificate standard.

MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we welcome this motivation but would like to ask just one question I would like to know if students who go through to the fifth form will be able, on completion of the course, to satisfy the requirements for admission to a university where, for instance, a student may require or seek to take a degree with an agricultural bias. And is the hon. Minister contemplating negotiating with the matriculation board for the recognition of such certificates as may be issued at the end of the fifth form so that they provide for such entry? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , the answer is "yes" and the Joint Matriculation Board has approved of it already . Not only that, but it enables the pupil to take his degree in agriculture.

TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I lay upon the table

Clause 1 (i) put and agreed to. a copy of a Bill to amend the liquor laws in so far they apply to the Transkei . The Bill has no financial implications. I move that the Bill now be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman . Agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time. THE reading?

CHAIRMAN : What day for the second

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to comment on in regard to paragraph (ii). In clause 1 (iii) these definitions deal with commercial and domestic science vocational education . For this type of education a minimum of three subjects or instruction of a minimum of eight hours a week in that particular course is required, in order that such a course may carry on as a vocational education course. To illustrate this point I wish to offer the following example: Primary and secondary schools may offer one or two commercial or domestic science subjects such as homecraft, needlework or bookkeeping and commercial arithmetic as part and parcel of their normal academic courses. This does not, however, place such schools in the category of vocational schools , hence the stipulation of a minimum of three subjects of instruction of at least eight hours a week. Now that covers paragraphs (iii) to (vi).

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The 1st June, 1966 , Mr. Chaimman . TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House should now resolve itself into committee.

Clause 1 (ii) to (vi) put and agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee ,

On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, clause 1 of the Bill deals with definitions of certain terms used in the Bill. This section is therefore of great importance as it determines the meaning of the various matters covered by the Bill. I do not propose to deal with each and every one of these as the majority of them are self-explanatory. However, before moving the adoption of this section I wish to explain a few. In

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , " education" means education in terms of item 2 of Part B of the First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, other than education provided by a university or a university college established by or in terms of any law. I wish to amend the two words, Mr. Chairman , " other than" and replace them by the word "excluding". Now item 2 of Part B of the First Schedule transfers the control of all education for Bantu persons in the Transkei , excluding those areas in the districts of Matatiele and Port St. John's which are not Bantu areas, to the Transkei Government. This definition therefore covers all types of education with the specific exclusion of university education, The exclusion of university education at this stage does not debar the Transkei Govemment from establishing a university at a later date, as such a step will in any event necessitate the passing of a

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman, is the provision of technical schooling implied under this?

separate act. Clause 1 (vii ) put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, paragraph (viii) gives the definition of " form" which means a course of education and training

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , it comes under that heading.

instituted by the Minister in terms of section 20 for any class or group of pupils in a secondary or high school , of a course deemed by the Minister to be equivalent thereto.

Clause 1 (xxxiv) to (xxxix) put and agreed to. Clause 1 as amended put and agreed to . Clauses 2 and 3 put and agreed to.

Clause 1 (viii) put and agreed to. On Clause 4 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : "Goveming body" means the person managing any private school including a nursery school.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman, I would like this "local authority" reference defined .

3 Clause 1 (ix) put and agreed to . MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, may it be suggested that these sub- sections be put and we shall call upon the hon. Minister to motivate any matter on which we feel uncertain. It is just that he was my former teacher - that is all, and I do not like to see him popping up and down like an inflated football.(Laughter) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Very well.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In the same way in which the Minister is empowered to establish new schools , etc. , he must be empowered to close those schools , etc. MR . NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I am not clear about this local authority because as far as I know a local authority is sometimes composed of the magistrate in an urban area and in this case I do not know whether it refers to the tribal authority or a school committee. I would like this matter elucidated further.

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Clause 1 (x) to (xxiii) put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think if the hon. member will look up his definitions it is explained in sub-section 1 (xv).

MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , will the hon. Minister please motivate paragraph (xxiv). THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Children's Act of 1960 provides for the estaelishment of special schools known as reform schools for juvenile delinquents . These reform schools are designed for those juvenile delinquents who are not regarded as sufficiently criminal to warrant imprisonment.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I know what particulars or what circumstances will justify the disestablishment of a school? What should exist to make that necessary?

Clause 1 (xxiv) to (xxxiii) put and agreed to.

school by the children , the number dropping to a number which we cannot accept as sufficient to carry on the school , and so on.

MR. GUZANA: Would the hon. Minister please motivate section (xxxiv) , THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, in the primary schools , Standards 5 and 6 , and also in secondary schools it is possible and also advisable to take a practical subject such as woodwork , metal work, arts and crafts , etc. Obviously the inclusion of these subjects for the purpose of providing the child with a broad education cannot be looked upon as technical or vocational education, hence the definition makes provision for this by stating that the inclusion of woodwork, metal work or any other practical art or craft does not constitute a technical course unless these subjects are taken with the specific purpose of training the pupil for a prescribed trade.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Does metal work there include elementary soldering, or is that excluded? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It does not fall under metal work.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Minister reply to the question.

Would the hon .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not absolutely necessary. It may be included.

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the conditions obtaining, such as non-attendance at

200 MR. GUZANA: Does the Minister contemplate for instance the (shall I say) re-organisation of schools to create other schools under this heading? For instance, you may have a number of primary schools , or rather higher primary schools , providing education up to the sixth standard and the Minister may consider it necessary to establish a higher primary school by transferring the fifth and sixth standard out of already existing schools in order to create a higher primary school . Is that contemplated under this section? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It has happened elsewhere but personally I do not approve of it. It deprives the community of many teachers they would otherwise have had. But I do have in mind, for instance , a school that goes as far as Std. 2 because these children were too small to attend a more distant school . Now with this rehabilitation scheme the people are clustered together so they will be close to the school and the other school will therefore be abandoned . MR . GUZANA : Would not the creation of a higher primary school out of the classes which have been attached to previously established higher primary schools ensure the continued employment ofthe teachers who taught in the respective schools ,

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and who will then go to the amalgamated higher primary school?

the hon. Minister contemplates the registration of private schools for the teaching, for instance, of special subjects like ballet dancing, or providing music lessons, or would you class such establishments as being not schools?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It may. I have in mind a number of schools that went up to Std. 6, then this higher primary school was established. This has happened in the Ciskei and many principals of those Std . 6 schools were taken over as assistant teachers in this higher primary school, so they lost their whole status by that. I move the adoption of this section.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The definition clearly states the matter and leaves no doubt. MR. GUZANA: Where is the definition of school in this Bill?

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister was going too fast for us in the first two sections. We would like some motivation on....

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, they have been passed.

MR. GUZANA: No, Mr. Chairman. I asked a question and I am going to be replied to . There is no definition of school in the Bill.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Minister has moved. Does the House agree?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is in paragraph 1 (xxviii). MR. GUZANA: Now would you include those schools?

Clause 4 agreed to. On Clause 9

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this section is necessary so as to provide financial assistance in the form of grants , subsidies or loans to schools such as the Efata School for blind and deaf children and the Ikwezi Lokusa School for cerebral palsied children, and schools of a similar nature.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you satisfied, hon. member? MR. GUZANA: Yes , Mr. Chairman.

Clauses 6 and 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , speaking of loans to these governing bodies , I take it that such loans are free of interest and can be redeemed on a longterm basis?

MR . NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to specify more on the word "basis" . What is meant by that?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If the Minister of Finance agrees . MR. GUZANA: Does he agree now? That is a pertinent question , Mr. Chairman . We would like to know. Can the hon. the Minister of Education , having consulted with the hon. the Minister of Finance (and we think he has) give us an answer? Will these loans be free of interest and will the beneficiaries under these loans be given a long period over which this money can be refunded? I am asking specifically in view of the fact that the provision involves financial matters . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , we have made provision for this in the Bill but we have come to no definite decision as yet. The Government would have to consider the matter.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , to assist my colleague this is clear that it shall be in the discretion of the Minister to determine the basis on which a teaching establishment can be appointed. For instance , Members of Parliament cannot be members of the teaching profession . That is the basis.

MR. GUZANA : No , section 8 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : It says there that the teaching establishment in respect of or relating to any Government school or reform school shall be fixed on such basis as he may determine . MR. BUBU : Let the Minister reply. He has studied it.

Clause 5 put and agreed to.

On Clause 6 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , this clause is most necessary . If private persons were allowed to establish schools without departmental control, courses which do not comply with the requirements of an established educational system could be introduced which would lead to a chaotic situation detrimental to education in general. Recently I received an application from a body of persons who wanted to open a herbalist school.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I need not study it. It is clear. It says the basis of the teaching establishment. Members of Parliament may not be members of the teaching establishment. I am trying to give you the basis on which the Minister can determine . (Interjections) You want the basis and I am telling you. It is not necessary for him to explain because it is clear to us all. At one time I was also a teacher. (Laughter)

MR. GUZANA : So that is why we have so many errant people in this world because they passed through your hands?

(Laughter) MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I ask whether -250-

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This determines the number of pupils in a class .

MR. GUZANA : And what is the financial implication which requires that you should consult with the Minister of Finance in determining the number of pupils in the class? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I do not know if you have read the Cingo Commission report? MR. GUZANA : You gave it to me in 1964. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I gave it to you but I do not know whether you have read it. MR . GUZANA : We discussed it together.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That gives the number of pupils per teacher, but now we . have to consult the Minister of Finance because if we decrease the number of pupils that entails the employment of an extra teacher

self. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I just want to reply to the hon. member and make it clear that the Treasury is responsible for the financial control of the moneys that are voted by this Assembly and as such the Treasury has to be advised about any expenditure which is being made because in case there is an excessive expenditure the Department will come to the Treasury and ask for more money. MR. GUZANA: I accept that when the Department of Education seeks to spend a certain amount of money, say in regard to salaries, it sends its requisition to the Treasury. Now why should he consult the Minister of Finance in respect of an amount of money already earmarl:ed , instead of drawing it direct from the Treasury?

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why not consult him? MR . BUBU: Is that not normally provided in your vote? MR. GUZANA : Yes, the question is : Parliament votes you a fixed amount and these votes are based on estimates , and your estimates in respect of salaries for teachers includes teachers who might possibly be employed in the ensuing year. We contend therefore that when you have that money voted to you by the Assembly there is no need for you to consult the Minister of Finance as to the application of that money . Our contention is that the Department of Education will consult the Minister of Finance when something extraneous and not anticipated, involving extra funds, arises. That is the feeling of this side of the House. May we get an explanation, please? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That of course is a common-sense feeling, but the financial regulations make this necessary that we should do it despite the estimates.

MR. GUZANA: What is the purpose of voting you a certain sum of money then, if that department is not free to apply that money? Otherwise , if there is no purpose in doing that the money should be left in the hands of the Minister of Finance and each Minister should go there , hat in hand every day, to ask for money .

prom MR. GUZANA: The expenditure is already authorized by the Legislative Assembly when it passed the estimates as part of the Appropriation Bill. Now why must he ask a second time? That is the question . THE CHIEF MINISTER : You see , the section says that the teaching establishment shall be fixed by the Minister on such basis as he may determine from time to time . Now if he has to fix the teaching establishment from time to time it means he has got to consult the Treasury.

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MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, let us not waste time on this matter, but it is an important one and wewould like a clear statement made by the Minister of Finance to this House as to the significance of the Appropriation Bill in relation to different departments using the money voted for those respective departments by this Assembly . At a later date we would like a statement which will make the position very clear to the House.

22 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I do not think it is necessary for the Minister of Finance to make a statement on this matter as it is a matter which pertains in all governments. The various departments have no experts on financial matters and it is the Treasury only that has such experts , so it is the Treasury only which can advise the various departments on the expenditure which should be incurred on particular matters.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , that is exactly the position. The hon. member will remember that the year before last a certain sum of money was voted for me to expend in entertainment, which money I did not use and therefore it remained in the fund. A similar sum was voted last

MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are standing, Sir , I take it that each department submits its estimates to the Treasury and the Treasury O.K.s them before they are submitted to the House for endorsement by the House.

year and I used it, but I had to go to the Minister of Finance first before I used it. MR. GUZANA: Now that is a different matter, where it is your personal allowance. I am speaking here of money for education.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is correct MR. GUZANA: And now the department has gone through that routine so why is it necessary for the department to come hat in hand for the money when it has been authorized? That is the point.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That was for educa-

tion . MR. GUZANA : No , it is his personal allowance.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that withtthe formation of these establishments from time

THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, it is for the Department of Education .

to time the department is required to consult the Treasury because financial control is in the hands of the Treasury .

MR. GUZANA: But it is for the Minister him-251-

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think that position was clearly stated the other day by the hon. the Chief Minister · that the Public Service Commission recommends and the Minister approves or disapproves.

MR. GUZANA: But surely only where there may be excess expenditure.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not necessary for them to do it all the time, but it is necessary when they have to embark on something outside the usual expenditure .

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, unfortunately the hon . the Minister of Education has referred to a report that was hurried out of this House before we went anywhere with it , because there was an incident that we saw here and it is definitely going either to - I would not say circumvent the powers

MR. GUZANA: And when they exceed their estimates . Yes , but I think the money should be used by the department without reference to the Treasury because the Minister has already endorsed the estimates.

of that body, but it is actually pushing it out. We find that everything is vested in the Department of the Chief Minister and we thought this Commission would be vested with these duties. May I put it this has that Commission to deal with the other way

THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are obliged to consult the Treasury in case at times they want to do something which is not provided for in the estimates.

five departments while the Department of Education is exempted and the Minister of Education deals with it personally?

MR . GUZANA: We concede that, but where they have to use money for services that have been approved by this House , why should they come to the Minister of Finance?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No, that is not implied in this. Section 9 deals with the appointment of teachers and does not refer to the Public Service Commission in any way. I see my hon. friend is still sore at heart because that question was run through, as he puts it.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You don't understand because you don't study the thing properly. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?

MR. RAJUILI : It was strangulated out of the House.

Clause 8 agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , you abuse the chiefs . I am glad, however, that my hon . friend from Qaukeni has raised that matter again in the form of a question He was very angry when I suggested he should put it in the form of a question.

On Clause 9 MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , would the hon. Minister please motivate this clause?

MR. BUBU: Because you evaded it.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you asking him to motivate here? It is clear. MR.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Perhaps I was against it because although the Daily Dispatch put it that it took place this year, it actually happened at the beginning of last year.

GUZANA: It may be as clear as mud.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Put a question if you do not understand anything. The section as it is is clear.

MR. BUBU: The Dispatch probably did not hear properly because of the noise you made on that side. (Interjections)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Do not argue among yourselves .

MR . BUBU : No , Mr. Chairman . The hon. the Chief Minister should realise that if he tries to prevent us asking for motivation we may ask a hundred questions and delay this Bill, but the hon. Minister may give us a short motivation and then we can understand without asking questions.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You suddenly pounced this question on me.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It says that the power to appoint any person is vested in the Minister.

MR. BUBU: Yes, but we want the hon . Minister to explain the meaning. tThis is the work we have come to do and it must be done thoroughly. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The power to appoint, promote , transfer or discharge any person will be vested in the Minister. That is all.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, how is that power related to the Public Service Commission? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Public Service Commission has nothing to do with the appointment of teachers.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to expatiate and clarify the position with regard to those discharged Departmental officials , particularly in relation to seconded officials . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I just wanted to reply to the question posed by the hon. member, Rev. B.S. Rajuili , as to the position of teachers in relation to the Public Service Commission. The teachers are departmental officials that are employed by the Department. They fall into a separate category from that of inspectors , who are field officers and civil servants in the Department of Education . That is nothing new. It is the same thing in so far as the Department of Education , Arts and Science is concerned in the Republic . You do not expect the Public Service Commission to be employing teachers who are in such big numbers, so the Government that is responsible for the em-

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ployment of public servants has left the matter to the Department of Education to see to.

MR. RAJUILI: I am very thankful for this explanation , Mr. Chairman , because the hon. the Chief Minister has now drawn the line in that Departmental officers do not fall under the powers vested here . It makes it clear therefore that in the other case we want him to know how it is dovetailed here. The Minister of Education had gone out of his way into a field to which he did not belong and worked up such a thing that embarassed not only the Department of Education but the Public Service Commission , where a Minister went and made an appointment where he ought not in the inspection department. I hope the hon . Minister is listening because candidates will apply to be inspectors of schools and not sub-inspectors and we shall not have a repetition of what happened last time. I welcome this confession by the hon. the Chief Minister on that incident. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Public Service Commission will consult the Department and if they disagree the matter will be taken up by the Cabinet. The Cabinet will decide .

MR. NOGCANTSI: In other words , are they beyond the jurisdiction of the Minister of Education? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not that they are are beyond his jurisdiction . It is that they are here on loan and when we no longer require their services then we advise the Republican Department. When they are here of course the Transkei Govemment deals with the whole establishment in so far as their services are concerned, but we have no power to discharge them because they are not our officials . All we can do is to request the Govemment of the Republic to take them back. CHIEF NDAMASE : And recommend discharge to the Republican Government? THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not a matter of discharging them. We say we no longer require their services .

MR. RAJUILI : We just want this put on record for future occasions . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , I would like to know something in connection with sub-section (3) , I would like the hon. Minister to explain why he puts Bantu only in this clause but not in clause (2). Let me give an example of a commercial school run by a European and this school is transferred to the Transkei Govemment, will the European not be required to run that school? If there were Bantu assistants in that particular school and it is taken over by the Transkei Govemment, will the Europeans be removed and the school run by a Bantu? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , no. The White teachers will continue teaching but they will be regarded as seconded teachers. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : provision for their transfer.

of the Transkei Government. When the Transkei Govemment does not require their services then the Department of the Chief Minister, acting in consultation with that particular department, communicates with the Department of Bantu Administration in Pretoria, or Bantu Education or whatever the case is with regard to the withdrawal of that particular official.

But there is no

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not necessary to have that . CHIEF NDAMASE : It is necessary . This is an Act · or is it because they are White that you do not want to have control of them? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If the Department requires the services of European teachers it requests the Republican Government to second those teachers and then they are retained as seconded officials .

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I think I have to repeat my question . It pertains to this phrase "discharge of departmental officials " . I want to know whether this obtains even in the case of the seconded officials , because previously it has been impossible to dispose of any seconded officials , no matter how reckless he may be.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I just want to ask whether or not the hon. Minister contemplates delegating his powers under this section to anybody under him . I can very well imagine a situation where he has to consider all these appointments , discharges and transfers and it looks very much like routine work. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Govemment delegated these powers to the Minister. MR. GUZANA: And if you have to do it yourself it will be a full-time job. MR . BUBU: Mr. Chairman , may I ask what procedure is followed in the appointment of a teacher from the very beginning, in view of the fact that they fall into a different category? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, all people who are in posts apply to the Department that is, those requiring posts as teachers . My Department prepares a register for the regional authorities and each authority will get a register conceming its own area, and the authority makes recommendations as to which teacher should be appointed to certain posts and they pass their suggestions to the school committees . Ultimately the suggested names come to the Department and we, as the Department, have the final say. MR. BUBU: To whom do the teachers apply? THE MINISTER Department.

OF

EDUCATION :

To the

MR. BUBU: Who is the correspondent of the Department? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Secre-

tary . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The question that is put by the hon. member for Qaukeni region deals with policy. Seconded officials are not the officials

MR. BUBU: And on receipt of the application , what does he do?

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33

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We have in our Department people who receive these applications and arrange them according to regional areas.

WEDNESDAY, 1ST JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read.

MR. BUBU: And after that?

The minutes of Friday, 27th May, 1966, were taken as read and, after amendment, confirmed.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We keep registers for different regions and send duplicates to the regions affected.

ANNOUNCEMENTS . MR. BUBU: Now you send those registers to the regional authorities?

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs , and, hon. members, you will notice that there are questions to be answered but unfortunately that is not

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, and from that they make their pick.

on the order paper for today. We shall reply to them today.

MR. GUZANA: But the Minister has the final say?

TRANSKEIAN POLICE BILL : FIRST READING . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , hon, paramount chiefs and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of a Bill to provide for the control, organisation and administration of the Transkeian Police. In view of the fact that the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act , No. 48 of 1963, I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) that the Minister of Finance recommends that the Bill be considered by the Assembly. I move that the Bill now be read a first time.

MR. BUBU: And from the regional authority where do they go? To the committees? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. MR. BUBU: And the school committees send in the names to the Department? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The school committees consult their regions before sending in the names.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman.

MR . C.S. MDA: So the committees have first to recommend to the Department?

Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They recommend to the region.

The Bill was read a first time.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Can you tell me if you can employ a candidate applying from Gcalekaland in the Emboland region?

THE reading?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Personally I think it is an ideal thing. I was a pupil at Alice and my own teacher came from Idutywa. We have done this because people prefer teaching near their own homes , otherwise the regions should have all the registers. MR. BUBU: Now how do you reconcile that with the principle of transferring teachers?

AFTERNOON SESSION .

day for the second

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I just take up a point? In my reading of the order paper, page 144 , it is stated that there would be the first reading of the Transkeian Police Amendment Bill. I see that this is just a Transkei Police Bill. What is the position , Sir? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The notice was for the introduction of a Police Bill. If the word "Amendment" is there there is something wrong with the minutes. MR. GUZANA: May I request, Mr. Chairman, that the order paper be amended then, because here we have a Transkei Police Amendment Bill , not a Transkei Police Bill.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No, it is an important matter and we want to understand it.

The debate was adjourned.

What

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Tomorrow , Mr. Chairman.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I would ask the we House to dispose of this clause before break for lunch.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Before we adjoum I want to make this announcement - that the members will be paid their allowances at 1.30 p.m. In order to facilitate the process of paying out, members are requested to be seated in their usual places at that time.

CHAIRMAN :

QUESTIONS.

QUESTION 65: Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Education :(a) "What are the names of the four teachers who have recently been transferred from Clarkebury Institution to other institutions?

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. (b) Have these teachers been substituted? If so, who are their substitutes? If not, why not?

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 1st June, 1966. -254-

which diseases? "

(c) To which institutions have these teachers referred to in (a) been transferred?"

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REPLY:

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REPLY :

(a) 1963 1964 1965

(a) Messrs . B.S.C. Mkumatela , W.N. Kewana, B.M. Titus and Miss S.B. Luzipo.

H.W.

1,432,830 1,419,226 1,429,372

(b) Due to deaths irrespective, of course, of slaughter there has been no increase in the total number of cattle . The birth rate over the total number of cattle in the Transkei, however, is:

(b) Yes , with the exception of the vice-principal , Mr. W.N. Kewana, whose post will be advertised . The substitutes are Messrs . U.C. Mayekiso , M.N. Mayekiso.

: : :

Heshula and Mrs.

July 1963 - June 1964 : 12.5% July 1964 June 1965 : 12.6% July 1965 - June 1966 : This figure is not yet available. (c) 853 July 1962 — June 1963 : 974 July 1963 - June 1964 : July 1964 — June 1965 : 1,176

(c) Mr. B.S.C. Mkumatela to Shawbury High School , Mr. W.N. Kewana to Osbom Secondary and Training School , Mr. B.M. Titus to Mvenyane Secondary and Training School and Miss S.B. Luzipo to Shawbury High School. MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman , arising out of the reply to Question 65, may I know why these teachers were transferred and if investigations were conducted before their transfer was effected .

(d) Mainly: Redwater, Gallsickness , Benign Bovine Gonderiasis and Quarter evil .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think the reply to that question has been given to a similar question before - that it is for the good of education and the Education Department .

(e ) Redwater, Benign Bovine Gonderiosis and Quarter Evil evenly distributed over the whole Transkei . Anaplasmosis (Gall sickness ) was more prevalent in the Matatiele district during 1965. During the other years in question it was fairly evenly distributed over all districts in the Transkei.

EST V 20

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QUESTION 66: Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance:" Is the Engcobo town zoned or not? if so (a) have you told the people? (b) how are the commonages divided? (c) if they are not why not?" REPLY: This question should be referred to the Minister of Interior.

QUESTION 67: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Justice :"Why should administrative matters not take their root or origin from legislative measures or acts? " REPLY: The question is not understood and I am unable to reply thereto.

QUESTION 68: Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:(a) "What was the cattle population of the Transkei during the years 1963, 1964 and 1965? (b) What if any, was the percentage increase by birth over the years referred to above? (c) How many head of cattle died through disease during the years referred to above? (d) What diseases were responsible for such deaths, and (e) Which areas were most affected and by

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MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture , would it be correct to come to the conclusion that stock population , particularly of cattle in the Transkei , is decreasing by the year and we would like to know whether or not his Department will relax the regulations governing the intaking of cattle into the Transkei in order to make up for that shortfall , regard being had especially to the de-boning factory? Further, whether in view of the fact that there is an increase in the number of cattle dying from the various diseases mentioned by the hon. Minister, his Department has taken or is going to take effective steps for the control of these diseases which seem to be ravaging the cattle population of the Transkei? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, in reply to the question by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition , judging from the statistics the first question is in the affirmative . With regard to the other question as to whether we are prepared to relax and to encourage the importation of more cattle , I might advise the hon . member that this has already been done in view of the very liberal attitude of the Department towards the importation of cattle . I would however like to mention to the House that that is not a realistic attitude , increasing the population of cattle . If we only have to replace cattle that have died , which in most cases is due to people not observing grazing regulations and perhaps also to sickness , as pointed out, that would be a very poor approach to economic agriculture - to import stock to replace deaths . The best way is to find out the cause and to increase from the population inside , which can easily be done with God's own help and your co-operation which, of course , means proper control of grazing and rehabilitation . With regard to stock diseases that prevail in the Transkei you will remember that last

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year an Act was passed in this House making provision for the control of certain diseases in addition to the scheduled diseases like anthrax and East Coast fever, but I am sorry to say that members (particularly on the other side) have not taken any advantage of this Act and they have not told the people the advantages of this Act where they can be given all the medicine and the help they need.

MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply to this question, if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is going to tell us that there are cattle deaths from undiagnosed causes, what is the use of having these spleens examined? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The question is comparatively simple , Mr. Chairman , from the youngest member of this House. (Laughter) We do take spleens to determine the cause of death and early disease might be reflected in the slide, but supposing it is blank and shows no disease? The beast may have died of old age or fallen into a donga. That is classed as undiagnosed disease so that is the reason why I have got here "undiagnosed disease".

QUESTION 69: Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "(1) How many bags of · (a) Mealies (b) Kaffircorn and (c) Wheat were produced in the Transkei during the seasons 1963/64 , 1965/66?

QUESTION 71: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"How many African extension officers are there in each district in the Transkei?"

(2) What are the estimates of produce of the abovementioned cereals for the season 1966/67? "

REPLY : REPLY:

(1) Season 1963/64 (a) Maize (b) Kaffir Com Wheat (bags) (bags) (bags) 1,615,000 2,750 88,300 Estimates for 100,000not known 1965/66 1,267,000 (2) An estimate for the season 1966/67 cannot be given at this stage as the crop has not yet been planted. Much of the present crop is still on the land and the lands for the 1966/67 crop will only be planted in a few months time.

1. Bizana 2. Butterworth 3. Elliotdale 4. Engcobo 5. Flagstaff 6. Idutywa 7. Kentani 8. Libode 9. Lusikisiki 10. Matatiele 11. Mount Ayliff 12. Mount Fletcher 13. Mount Frere

QUESTION 70: Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"How many head of cattle died in the Transkei as a result of drought during the years 1964 and 1965 as well as during the first four (4) months of 1966?

7 10 4 5 5 10 5 14 7 14 7 7 10

1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13.

Mqanduli Ngqele ni Nqamakwe Port St. John's Qumbu St. Marks Tabankulu Tsolo Tsomo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale Xalan ga

4 9 11 13 7 13 7 14 7 10 10 7 7 224

QUESTION 72: Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Education:(a) "In view of the fact that contrary to procedure laid down under section 7 subsection 5 of Proclamation R334 of 1963 relating to the rejection or variation of the Public Service Commission's recommendation in respect of Mr. S.W. Mbanga's appointment to the post of Sub-Inspector of Education , will the Minister explain why his Department did not give due notice in terms of the section of the Proclamation quoted above?

REPLY: In answer to this question members are asked to note that all figures given are taken over seasonal years and cannot be given for calendar years.

July 1963 - June 1964 125,425 head of cattle died of undiagnosed disease. 49% of these deaths occurred during four winter months , the other 51% was staggered over the rest of the year. If it is borne in mind that the average losses of cattle over the previous 10 years were 150,000 deaths per year the figure of 125.425 is fairly low and that as far as this year was concerned the drought played a part of very little consequence.

(b) In view of the breach of the statutory procedure laid down in Proclamation R334 of 1963 when the department seeks a variation or rejection of the Public Service Commission's recommendation , will the Minister now state that the appointment of Mr. Mbanga to the post of Sub-Inspector is illegal and therefore null and void?

June 1965 July 1964 184,291 head of cattle died of undiagnosed disease during the above period. 46% of these losses occurred during the winter months and 54% during the rest of the year. Due to the severity of the winter following on a drought period and delayed summer rains it is not possible to give any accurate figure as to deaths due to drought. It is , however, estimated that approximately 2% i.e. 26,000 head of cattle had died as a direct cause of the drought. The figures for July 1965 - June 1966 are not yet available.

(c) Whether the said Mr. Mbanga will now be called upon to refund the treasury the emoluments received by him whilst he held the post of sub-inspector illegally to the extent of the difference between the salary he received as supervisor and his salary as sub-inspector? " -256-

REPLY:

to the Cabinet , and that it did so in spite of the clear and unequivocal requirements of G.N. No. R334 of 1963.

(a) 1. The Department in in submitting its recommendations for the post of subinspector, placed another applicant first. Mr. Mbanga was the Department's second choice. The Public Service Commission accepted the Department's recommendation.

10. The Department admits that it did not inform the Commission that its offer to Mr. Mbanga of the 3rd February was not acceptable and that it intended to proceed with the appeal to the Cabinet, of which the Commission was informed on the 8th

2. O1 8/12/1964, the Department unfortunately had to notify the Public Service Commission that, in view of certain information that had come to its knowledge, the appointment of the man recommended could not be proceeded with and then recommended the appointment of Mr. Mbanga.

3. The Commission, in a

of January , 1965. At the same time, the Department of Education cannot but reject the accusation that it did not act in accordance with the requirements of the regulations in regard to the appointment of Mr. Mbanga as sub-inspector. The fact is stressed that the Department's clash with the Commission was over the appointment of Mr. Mbanga as sub-inspector, and in this matter the Department acted not only within its rights but also in accordance with the relevant regulations .

letter dated

18/12/1964, accepted the Department's views in regard to the person recommended in the first instance but in the second paragraph of its letter the Commission rejected the Department's recommendation of Mr. Mbanga for the post, and also notified the Department that it had decided to re- advertise the post.

(b) and (c) : In view of this statement these two questions fall away. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply to Question 72, is the hon . Minister aware that this House feels that the Mbanga scandal is an indelible blot on the Department of Educatior

4. Against this rejection of its recommendation, the Department decided to appeal to the Cabinet.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , what does the hon. member mean by the word " scandal''?

5. In terms of the relevant sections of Proclamation R.334 of 1963, the Department fully informed the Commission on 8/1/1965 of its intention to appeal , giving the reasons for its appeal.

MR.

RAJUILI :

Mr.

Chairman ,

I

am in the

middle of asking my question when the hon . the Chief Minister gets up.

6. The Department drew up a memorandum to the Cabinet and submitted it on 21/1/65 . This memorandum was dealt with by the Cabinet on 9/2/1965.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He must explain what he means by a scandal. I think that is an insult and he should withdraw that remark.

7. The Commission on 3/2/1965 informed the Department that it was prepared to grant Mr. Mbanga a personal salary, but as a supervisor only.

THE CHAIRMAN: I think you should withdraw that, hon. member. It is not a nice thing. You must withdraw that word. MR. RAJUILI : It is quite apt in connection with a thing like this from a Department of State. (Interjections )

8. As this offer to Mr. Mbanga did not, in the opinion of the Department , affect the issue, the Department did not appeal against this decision , for if its appeal on the rejection of its recommendation to appoint Mr. Mbanga as a sub-inspector were to succeed , the subsequent offer of the Commission would naturally fall away, as sub-inspector is a more senior post than supervisor.

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. I want to know if the hon. member is withdrawing. MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I am trying to find an equivalent to that word.

THE

9. The Commission , in its annual report is therefore quite correct in stating in paragraph 49 that the Department did not notify it of its intention to appeal to the Cabinet on its recommendation of the 3rd February, but in stating this and at the same time omitting to mention the fact that the Department had notified it in terms of section 7 of G.N. No. R334 of 1963 of its intention to appeal against the Commission's decision quoted in paragraph 47, the impression is created that the Department of Education ignored the Commission on the matter of Mr. Mbanga's appointment as sub-inspector in its appeal

CHAIRMAN:

You

must

withdraw

it.

MR. RAJUILI : I will withdraw it, but I am trying to find a substitute because the hon . the Chief Minister seems to feel it should not be discussed. It worries him more than the Minister concerned. THE CHAIRMAN : It worries me. MR. RAJUILI: Very well , Mr. Chairman, I will withdraw.

THE CHAIRMAN : Just ask the question now. MR. RAJUILI: I will re-phrase it. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. -257-

Chaiman , still

15

그

of the sentence method now in use for beginners in the primary schools? "

arising from the reply to Question 72 , I would like the hon. the Minister of Education to elaborate on this "certain information" and also to disclose the

REPLY:

reason for the Department's appeal and also the special salary and failing to inform the Commission .

No. The Department is not aware of the existence of the euphonic or alliterative method.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: He will reply on the 6th June . (Laughter)

QUESTION 74: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Finance:

MR. NOGCANTSI : Could he do it in the interests of the House?

"How many registered taxpayers are there (a) in the Matatiele district? (b) in the Mount Fletcher district? "

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think my reply was very clear and I would ask the hon. member to put his question in writing. My only regret is that he will not be here to hear the answer. Any other members who have questions arising from this reply should put them in writing as well.

REPLY: Exact figures are not available. The Bantu Reference Bureau in Pretoria has supplied the following estimated figures : (a) 35,000 (b) 24,000

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman... THE CHAIRMAN : Before you carry on, hon. member, I think the hon. Minister asked that the questions should be put in writing.

QUESTION 75: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Interior: "How many registered voters are there (a) in the Matatiele district? (b) in the Mount Fletcher district?

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , this seems to be a strange reaction on the part of the Minister of Education where he anticipates all the questions arising from his reply. In effect his reply is negativing the report of the Public Service Commission which has been tabled here. The hon. Minister says that the Public Service Commission was advised of the Department's intention to appeal to the Cabinet.

REPLY: There are 81,300 voters registered in Maluti Electoral division comprising Bantu areas in the districts of Matatiele Mount Fletcher. I am unable to fumish figures for the districts separately .

THE CHAIRMAN : Are you asking a question or making a statement? MR. GUZANA: Well , Mr. going to ask the question……..

Chairman,

the the and the

QUESTION 76: Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :(a) "What was the cattle population of Engcobo district during the years 1963, 1964 and 1965?

I was

THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had better do so. (b) What was the percentage increase by birth over the years referred to in (a)?

MR. GUZANA: Does the reply of the hon. the Minister of Education imply that the report of the Public Service Commission in so far as it is contained in paragraph 49 is erroneous?

(c) How many head of cattle died as a result of disease or poor condition during the years referred to in (a)?” REPLY:

THE CHAIRMAN: I think you should write it down as he has already asked you to do so.

(a) 1963 - 88,077 1964 87,693 1965 - 87,279

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: He is ready to reply. THE CHAIRMAN: No , sit down, please. MR. to you. question any good

(b) This question is badly phrased : As there has been a decrease due to slaughter and deaths the number of calves born does not constitute an increase. The birth rate over the total number of cattle , however, is:

GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I must appeal The Minister is ready to reply to this and I am sure this is not preparing us for exchanges on the Bill before us.

THE CHAIRMAN : He asked that all the questions should be written down .

July 1963 - June 1964 9.6% July 1964 - June 1965 8.6%

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: But he is prepared to reply.

The figures for the period July 1965 - June 1966 are not yet available.

THE CHAIRMAN : It should be written down as he said.

(c) This question is not clear. The total figure, however, for deaths due to poverty and disease is :

QUESTION 73: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education :"Is the Department prepared to adopt the former euphonic or alliterative method in place

July gure July July -258-

1962 - June 1963 : 10,569 this fi-

includes all animals slaughtered. 1963 - June 1964 : 7,505 1964 - June 1965 : 7,205

QUESTION 77: Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Interior: (a) "How many registered voters are there in each of the various districts of the Transkei?

(c) Is it considered economical to grow this crop in the Transkei?" REPLY : (a) Approximately 100 tons (b) Cofimvaba and Port St. Johns . (c) Yes.

(b) Of these registered voters referred to in (a) how many are males and how many are females?"

QUESTION 80: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance: -

REPLY : I am unable to fumish the figures for the districts separately, because the distribution of the voters on the register is , in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 , on a regional basis . The following voters are registered in each of the Electoral divisions of the Transkei. Electoral Division

Districts

Dalindyebo

Engcobo Mqanduli Umtata

Male

(a) "Is it the policy of the Govemment to use comfortable furniture for the White civil servants and rough ones for the African counterparts?

Female

)

(b) Can the honourable Minister allow the members of the Legislative Assembly to inspect the offices of the civil servants for comparative purposes? "

) 65,000 68,300

REPLY : Emboland

Mount Frere Qumbu Tsolo

Emigrant Tembuland St. Marks Xalanga

> ) ) 51,500 58,000

This question should be referred to the Minister of Roads and Works .

QUESTION 81: Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Interior: are regulations governing the (a) "What Transkei Government Teachers Pension Fund?

) 34,400 38,400

Fingo

Butterworth Nqamakwe Tsomo

> > ) 37,800 40,000

Gcaleka

Elliotdale Idutywa Kentani Willowvale

) > > ) 68,000 80,250

Maluti

Matatiele > Mount Fletcher ) 37,800 43,500

Nyanda

Libode > Ngqeleni > Port St. Johns ) 41,800 45,000

Qaukeni

Bizana Flagstaff Lusikisiki Mount Ayliff Tabankulu

> > ) > ) 80,000 90,000

Umzimkulu

Umzimkulu

) 17,600 20,000

(D, Are teachers already contributing to their pension fund? If so, how much? (c) Were teachers made aware of the Pension Fund regulations? (d) Since there are employees of the Transkei Education Department who served both under the Cape Provincial administration and the Republic of South Africa , what is the position in regard to their pension? (e) Is it true that those who served under the Cape Provincial Administration , there is no provision for their pensions or contributions being paid to them on being discharged or when they die to their dependants?

QUESTION 78: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-

(f) If not, what is the Transkei Govemment doing to remedy this cruel and inhumane practice, which obviously does not apply to white civil servants? " REPLY :

"How many wool improvement officers are there in each district in the Transkei? "

(a) No regulations governing the Transkei Teachers' Pension Fund have yet been promulgated, but the matter is receiving attention by the actuaries, Messrs . Carson & Partners of Johannesburg . Certain unavoidable delays have occurred, one of which concemed the retiring ages of teachers, but it is hoped that this particular difficulty will soon be resolved as a result of legislation presently being considered by the Transkei Legislative Assembly.

REPLY : There are no officers employed solely on wool improvement in the Transkei any more . Wool improvement work is also a function of the extension officers and their advisory services are available to all sheep owners.

QUESTION 79: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture (a) "How much cotton has been harvested in the Transkei?

(b) Teachers who are under the age of 40 and who are not members of any Republican or Provincial Fund are already contributing

(b) Which districts produce this crop?

-259-

to the Transkei Teachers ' Pension Fund on the same basis as members of the

TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE .

Transkeian Government Employees' Pension and Gratuity Fund govemed by Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 as amended

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House go into committee.

by Proclamation No. 264 of 1947. This has been arranged, despite the fact that regulations for the Teachers ' Pension Fund have not yet been promulgated and that the teachers concemed have not yet been formally admitted to the Fund, in order that such teachers may not have to bear the hardship of arrear contributions when the fund has been fully established. In explanation of this , I wish to point out that in terms of section 3 of Act No. 7 of 1965 "every teacher appointed on or after the fixed date , 1/4/66 , shall .................. become a member of and contribute to the fund". Teachers who were under the age of 50 years as at the fixed date, and who did not formerly belong to any existing pension fund, will be given the option to join the new fund. (c) See

reply

under

paragraph

(a) above.

(d) Teachers who served under the Cape Provincial Administration and who contributed to the Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund are to be given the option of remaining members of that Fund or of becoming members of the Transkei Teachers ' Pension Fund. When such teachers are called upon. to make the necessary election, which it is hoped will be soon , they will be furnished with an explanatory memorandum , drawn up by the actuaries, to enable them to decide for themselves just what course will be to their advantage. Teachers appointed on or after 1st January , 1954, by the Republican Department of Bantu Education did not contribute to a pension fund because no Departmental pension fund was in existence. Such teachers will naturally be given the option of joining the new Transkeian Pension Fund.

(e) The position of teachers who served under the Cape Provincial Administration is govered by the "Teachers' Pension and Fund Act No. 43 of 1887 which was modi-

THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second.

Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : When we adjoumed we were dealing with clause 9 so we shall commence from there. The debate was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we would like some explanation here particularly because the powers of appointment, promotion, discharge and transfer of teachers are vested in the Minister. The present position is that a teacher applies to the Department of Education for a post. These applications are sent to the Department's Secretary who consults the school committees , I take it. Now these committees make a first choice, second choice and a third choice I take it. The recommendations are sent back to the Department of Education which in tum refers them now to the regional authority. The regional authority, after considering these applications , then makes a recommendation to the Minister. The position that arises from this backward and forward movement of these applications is that many, many months elapse before a teacher is made aware of the fact that he is employed permanently. Is it not a fact that some of these teachers have been on a temporary basis for nine months? They suffer the disadvantage which arises from that temporary appointment because they cannot arrange for a stop order payment for premiums on insurance policies, for instance . Isn't this long rigmarole cumbersome and causing hardship to the teacher, and would it not be better to have a body constituted to handle these applications and expedite the appointment of teachers? GOVERNMENT

MEMBER :

School

boards?

MR. GUZANA: Will the hon. Minister please give us an explanation on this point which is giving some concem to the teachers as a result of the powers of appointment being vested in the Minister, and this reference to numerous bodies before the final word is given.

fied by subsequent Cape Ordinances. Contributions were exceedingly small , being only 5 per cent of one-seventh of a teacher's salary so small in fact that there was an overall shortfall each year of about R8,000 which the Provincial Administration had to make good from its own funds to meet the pensions paid to teachers . Because of this , pension benefits were correspondingly small and were paid only on retirement, or before retirement in the case of ill-health , and then only to teachers who had completed 15 years of continuous satisfactory service.

(f) The Transkei Govemment does not administer the Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund, and therefore cannot take any action in the matter. -260-

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the line of procedure we are following is going to lead us anywhere. I think the idea of a bill is to make provision for the Minister to carry out the desires of the House. The question of how things are going to be done should really be raised when the Education Vote is discussed. However in reply to the last speaker, what he asked was rasied last year. The powers of school boards were transferred to the bodies mentioned and this new method has not been giving any trouble to show whether it is as cumbersome as it is described . It is expected that these regional authorities have their own executives who will try as much as possible to expedite matters.

We are a Government.

MR. GUZANA: Will the member of the regional authority who is nominated to it on the strength of his knowledge of education be on that executive committee?

MR. BUBU: I agree with the hon. the Chief Minister. We are not a province, but then he must agree that the Minister has very extensive duties.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He should be.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But that is done under regulation . What are the regulations there for?

MR. GUZANA: How often do these committees meet?

MR. BUBU: We therefore feel that some of the powers should be delegated to a body such as I have mentioned in this amendment. The Govemment must concede that if all this work is to fall upon the shoulders of the Minister....

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: All these bodies have adhoc meetings .

MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I have an amendment which I wish to move in connection with clause 9. I think I should read it , Mr. Chairman. The amendment seeks to add a fourth subsection as follows:

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: It does not.

"That the powers of the Minister as provided for under section 9 (1) shall be delegated to the Director of Professional Services who shall exercise such delegated powers in council with two senior inspectors of education in consultation with the Minister." Mr. Chairman, as it can easily be seen the amendment seeks to relieve the Minister of some of the duties that devolve upon him. It does not seek to divorce from him completely the functions as set out in the section. It merely seeks to achieve devolution of responsibility , If all responsibilities fall directly and immediately on the shoulders of the Minister who is the head of the whole Department, it means there would be a great wastage of time and efficiency would immediately be affected. As is known to all of us the Minister is a political head of the Department of Education . His function is to shoulder policy in all matters that relate to policy. I do not seek, Mr. Chairman , to relieve him completely from these duties, but we are seeking that some of his powers, particularly those which concern the daily work that is done in all schools , should be delegated to a body that will immediately be able to tackle all problems as they arise. We are seeking this , Mr. Chairman, because we have regard to the stupendous responsibilities which the Minister has to shoulder. We are aware that ultimately he has the right and the power to exercise ultimate control. I might also mention that what we are seeking here is not entirely new. It is only new in so far as there is no provision in the Bill that is being discussed at the present moment. It is something that is taking place all over the Republic of South Africa. You will find, for instance, that in the provinces control of everything in the province devolves upon the Administrator but in view of the fact that the responsibilities of the Administrator are vast he delegates some of the powers to certain bodies.

MR. BUBU : It does, and then a great deal of delay in the execution of the work is brought about. For instance, I may wam the hon. Minister that there are several teachers throughout the country who have not been paid for over a year sometimes.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Not now.

MR. BUBU: At the beginning of this year quite a number of schools were advised that there were to be grants and they must expect new grants . They were encouraged to build schools . This they did but now the schools are saddled with large numbers and there are no teachers . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Shortage of manpower. MR. BUBU: I do not deny the possibility of that, but one of the reasons is that the whole of the work falls upon the Minister and some of the officials in his Department have nothing to do because all the work falls on him. It is not difficult to imagine that that is the position, Mr. Chairman, in view of the delays and the high degree of inefficiency in the administration of educational services. It is for that reason that we are seeking that some of the powers of the Minister should be delegated to a small body consisting of the Director of Professional Services and two senior inspectors. We are seeking that that small body should deal with professional matters . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Give us an example. What government has ever delegated powers to inspectors? MR. BUBU: If it has never been done by legislation, the idea itself has been put into practice . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The powers are delegated to the Secretary of the Department.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Such delegation is done by regulation - never in the Act.

MR. BUBU: But the Secretary is working in conjunction with the Minister and his powers are co-extensive with the Minister's. He is as much concemed with policy as the Minister is. Even at the moment of speaking he is busy assisting the Minister in this, and yet there are duties that could usefully be performed by people who are outside this Chamber, for instance . We are not suggesting that the hon. Minister and probably his Secretary

MR. BUBU: One of these bodies is the Department of Education in the Cape which is under the immediate control of the Superintendent-General of Education. In Natal, the Transvaal and the Free State you have Directors of Education. Those four men in these provinces are heads of a sub-committee under the Administrator. They help the Administrator to bring about efficiency .

are not fit to do this type of work, but we ask that consideration be given to this amendment.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not a province.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. mem-261-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the point at issue touches on the policy of the Government. The question before us is - who does the appointment of Government servants in terms of the Constitution Act? The reply is - the Cabinet. Now the Minister, in making the appointments in his Department, is making those appointments on behalf of the Cabinet and in all constitutional bodies, in all parliamentary systems , you can never find powers being delegated to junior officials . The hon. member across the floor cannot quote a single act of Parliament where it is enacted that the minister will delegate certain powers to junior officials . The hon. member who is the mover of the amendment has quoted provincial ordinances which to our own thinking on this side of the House are far below the status of this House. Probably it is because the members across the floor are clamouring for a provincial status instead of a state. (Interjections)

bers, I second the amendment.

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION .

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the committee stage of the Education Bill was resumed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think the hon. the Chief Minister in his interjections gave a reply to the amendment by the hon. member for Qaukeni . No act of Parliament ever specifies that certain officials should do this and that. The Minister has all the authority and other than the Minister only the Secretary is given powers in acts of Parliament. However I think what the hon. member requires is already provided for in section 29 (1) .

MR. RAJUILI : A pseudo state . MR . N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I rise to support this amendment . Of a truth, education is a very important department. It is the complaint of all the people that this heavy burden should rest on the shoulders of one individual. In addition that individual is himself a politician.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : In any government the ministers are politicians . MR. JAFTA: I would like this to be quite clear. If the whole of this burden rests on the shoulders of a single individual there is usually a prejudice. It is our feeling that if all this devolves on the shoulders of one member, the Minister, there will always be this complaint. It is for this reason that we request that his subordinates or bodies under his Department should be concerned with the employment, transfer and so on, of the teachers. His reply is that there will be regulations that he will himself put into effect .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The hon . members across the floor do not know how these things are done in the various departments. I must educate them . The files start from the junior officials upwards and they make their own observations on the particular matter which has to go through the minister. Each official must give his own views on the matter and so the file goes right through the department with every senior official under the secretary making his own observations. Finally, when all the officials in this department have given their views on this particular subject, a memorandum is drawn up for the minister. The minister decides the matter on the memorandum before him. He does not arbitrarily act on his own. What you are seeking is that immediately the regional authority submits a recommendation in connection with the employment of a teacher the matter must be decided at once by some of the junior officials. We cannot do that in the department.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is provision in the Bill for that.

MR. JAFTA: We would like it clear to the Government that it is the feeling of the people that they do not approve of the whole of this burden devolving upon the Minister. It is for that reason that we are stressing this point, so that even if it is not adhered to then it will be understood that it is the desire of the people that this work should devolve upon branches under the Department . It has been stated that we are not a province , but a state. It is for that reason that we wish this Department to have the status of a state . THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you want to be a province .

MR. JAFTA: I would like it noted further that we are short of teachers and the reason is the fear of the people in connection with the administration of this Department. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come to the point. You are not talking on the section.

MR. JAFTA: That is why we advocate that the Director of professional Services and two inspectors should be responsible for the appointment, transfer and dismissal of teachers .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is not the suggestion. He didn't say juniors must deal with it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You want the Director of Professional Services to deal with appointments. He is a junior official. And who are inspectors after all? What they do is to inspect schools. They must deal with the inspection of children . They have nothing to do with office work. As I say, in the Department we have various officials who deal with these matters . We have the chief clerk, apart from the senior clerks in the office and each one of these officials gives his views on the particular matter. That will be the case in the question of the employment of teachers , because there are going to be several people recommended by the regional authority . Now the qualifications , the testimonials of the teacher and all those things which are required in the employment of a teacher will be placed before the officials to make their recommendations. (Interjections) We do not do things as you think they are done. Even in the case of an ordinary headman a memorandum must be placed before the Minister before an appointment is made. The Minister has no time for these things . OPPOSITION MEMBER : That is just what we say .

-262-

THE CHIEF MINISTER: All he does is to go through the memorandum and if he has a question he puts it to the Secretary and then signs the appointment. You know we are loaded with work. You seem to be sympathizing with the Ministers but we know what is in your minds . (Interjections) We are political figures right enough, but in any state it is the Ministers who have to be at the head of the Government. In any event section 29 meets your desires except that you want to depart from what we know is the convention in all governments. The permanent head of the Department is the person on whom powers can be delegated by the Minister. They cannot just be delegated to any officials. Then the permanent head, in consultation with the Minister, can request the Minister that a certain official should assist him in carrying out these duties. We cannot legislate on everything. Regulations will be drawn up after this Act is passed , as it is going to be passed. These regulations will go into all these matters . This is an Act and we do not provide for everything in an Act. I am sure the hon. member now understands , unless he refuses to understand. But if he is so adamant and obstinate that he cannot even learn from the people who do these things as he is ignorant of them, we cannot help it. We are the people who are handling these things. We have no time to be doing all these things, as we say. We have to go and educate the people about what we are doing so most of the time we are away from our offices , but nothing stands still in our absence. We have a system of administration which is beyond your own comprehension . (Laughter) The system of administration that we have cannot be understood by an ordinary politician. In order to understand it you will have to come and stay in our offices for months, but you cannot come here and criticize a thing which you do not know. With those few words , I think my hon. friends across the floor will understand the situation . MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman , what worries the Opposition and was put forward by the mover of the amendment, is that the Minister has absolute powers and he is also a politician. It means that he can get any information about a teacher without himself investigating the matter and yet he can transfer that teacher. You have noted that senseless , indiscriminate transfer of teachers in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Which other teachers have been transferred besides those at Willowvale? MR.. MPONDO: The hon. the Minister of Agriculture wants to know which other teachers have been transferred besides those at Willowvale . I will

Q

do with it?

[l. MR. MPONDO: Shut up. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot say I must shut up. MR. MPONDO: You shut your mouth . It is a bit too big. As far as Mr. Mbandazayo's case is concerned,. about three residents of the location came to see the Minister of Education three, four or five times in his office . They placed their complaint about Mr. Mbandazayo and before any investigation was made Mr. Mbandazayo is being transferred to Easter Pondoland. There is another teacherin Easter Pondoland and some of the chiefs there decided he was an undesirable alien in that region just because he happens to be a friend of a member of the Democratic Party. The other day I said there was a lot of corruption in that Department..... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you still repeat that? MR. MPONDO: ...and the pig-headed Chief Minister took exception to that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are insulting me. MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , sometimes the hon. the Chief Minister forgets he is a chief in this House. I would like the Minister to note particularly that his superfluous powers are destroying education in this country. It is for that reason that the hon. member brings forward this amendment that there should be some people under the Minister of Education who will deal with transfers of teachers so that he will not, because of his political affiliations, transfer someone because he knows he is a friend of someone in the other party . (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

CHIEF J. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I speak to the motion I would like to make this request to the hon. Mr. Mpondo , that he should speak with respect in regard to Ministers. I suggest that the hon . Mr. Mpondo and the likes of him should not be allowed to abuse the hon. the Chief Minister and tell him to shut up. They should be forced by you, Mr. Chairman , to withdraw their unpleasant remarks . When a dog bays at the moon everybody in the vicinity wakes up. The hon. member is one of those dogs. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, if you have nothing to say in connection with the debate, please sit down.

be giving him names in due course. Understand that I will place things as they are. As I stand here , Mr. Chairman , a teacher in Butterworth will be transferred to Eastern Pondoland and one in Eastern Pondoland will be transferred to Butterworth. The hon. the Minister of Education said at one time that a teacher should be transferred because he is a civil servant. His senseless mind makes him liken a teacher to an ordinary clerk in any office , forgetting that a teacher ought to mould the character of a Bantu child. If he is transferred from pillar to post what will happen to the work he should do in the classroom? I have in mind a teacher in

CHIEF MTIRARA: I attention, Mr. Chairman... THE DEPUTY amendment, please.

am just drawing your

CHAIRMAN :

Speak

on the

MR. MPONDO: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, are you allowing this hon. member to call me a dog? I demand that he withdraw that. CHIEF MTIRARA : You can go to attorneys and ……..

all the

Butterworth, Mr. Enoch Mbandazayo ... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, you must withdraw that remark .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What has that got to -263-

CHIEF MTIRARA: I did not say he is a dog, but I likened him to a dog. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Withdraw the very mention of a dog. Let us not argue about it. Do you withdraw or not?

scale, the adjustment may be up or down. This proviso seeks to guarantee that such adjustment will not result in a financial loss by reason of the fact that this person has been transferred to the Department. MR.

CHIEF member....

MTIRARA: Mr.

Chairman, the hon.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, I shall not refer to the matter on hand, but I merely rise to request the Chairman not to allow the debate to be lowered by the hon. the Chief Minister, because in this House we are equal members and reference should not be made to chieftainship . THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, every member has a right to make interjections , but no member is allowed to insult another while he is holding the floor. You have never heard me say " Shut up" when interjections come from that side. MR. MPONDO: It is no insult to say " Shut up" . OPPOSITION MEMBERS: We heard you say to that member that he must insult the Opposition.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is an insult. When I make interjections I am trying to ask questions from a member who is speaking, in order to clarify a point. OPPOSITION MEMBER : You instructed that

NOGCANTSI:

Chairman

Mr.

and hon .

members, I beg to second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman hon. members , I cannot accept the amendment. It does seem a question of commonsense that when a teacher is transferred he will not be penalized financially, but to put it down in an act places the Government in a very dangerous position indeed. Take a private school which pays its own teachers , and this private school wishes to become a Govemment school . Their scale of salaries was lower than ours. We say: Well , we shall take you over and they immediately raise the teachers' salaries to something higher than our salaries. MR.

GUZANA : Isn't that rather imaginary?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It may be, but it binds the Govemment to that provision. Let us leave the matter to the common sense of the Government.

MR.

GUZANA:

Has

it

any

commonsense?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It has commonsense, but I think it is lacking on that side that is why some people are going over to Doubt.

member to swear at us. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I did not. (General

MR. GUZANA : Well, while you are on your feet can we get a verbal guarantee that there will be no financial loss, as a matter of commonsense?

uproar) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am now going to close the debate on this amendment. (Interjections ) MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman....

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, that will be assured. It is a matter of commonsense. MR. GUZANA: If that is an assurance , then I will withdraw the amendment.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please, hon. member. I have not given you permission to talk.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , although I am standing to support this amendment.....

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman, I think I am going to be the last speaker on this issue.

GOVERNMENT MEMBER : been withdrawn .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have already closed the debate on this amendment. Sit down, please. The hon. Mr. Bubu has moved an amendment that section 9 be amended by the addition of a fourth sub-section . I will now put the amendment.

MR. NOGCANTSI: .... I would like first of all to verify from the hon. the Minister of Education as to whether he is agreeing in writing to the purpose of the amendment. Should he answer in the affirmative I will readily sit down.

The amendment was lost by 32 votes to 42.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And if I reply in the negative?

Sit down. It has

Clause 9 put and agreed to by 42 votes to 32. On Clause 10 MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment to section 10 (2) by the addition of the words at the end of the section "provided there is no financial loss sustained" . Section 10 (2) contemplates the transfer of an employee to the Department of Education . It is indicated that his salary shall be adjusted to the salary scale applicable to his post at such a notch on that scale as the Minister may determine. Now if indeed there is going to be an adjustment of a

MR. NOGCANTSI: If he replies in the negative it means therefore that I must attack at length. Seeing that he will not reply I shall therefore debate on this. As it has been seen in the preceding section, you will find that our endeavours on this side are to protect the working population, particularly the intellectuals as the teachers are the intellectuals of the Transkei. When we are talking about education we know that we are just enjoying life in our country because we have been teachers ourselves.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You know -264-

you were dismissed for shooting a White man .

heard there are special salary scales, particularly when we were discussing the question of Mr.

MR. NOGCANTSI : You can send us anywhere whether you send us to gaol buy you can still deprive us of our profession.

Mbanga. I wonder what type of a scale is a special scale? In fact , why should it be personal , so that if you do not wear a suit you will get a scale that is poorer than the scale of a man who wears a suit? Why should one go to school if then the scale will have to be determined by the Minister? At least if this is a sensible Government some protective measures should be afforded to the labourers or to the civil servants . There is nothing wrong in putting down in writing that there will be no loss sustained by people, particularly by an old, aging man, because we know that his mentality is on and off. (Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Are you still a teacher? We would never accept you as a teacher in Eastern Pondoland. MR. NOGCANTSI: I pity the mentalities as displayed by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry because it means now he must be absorbed in the night school. At least mentality should not be confined to a rat. (Laughter) Education means adaptation and such adaptation should not be random. It should be cultured. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Come to the amendment.

MR. NOGCANTSI : The amendment seeks to protect the salary scale of a man who has assumed a position after he has been transferred . It is said theoretically that the notch of such person will not be affected, but will be determined by the Minister. If only, therefore, this determination would be done away with we would be satisfied. Why should the salary of a particular professional person be subject to the whims of an individual Minister particularly a political Minister? You know that teachers themselves are not allowed to participate in politics. Here is one person posing as a judge over a person who is non-political. In other words, I cannot see why this hon. Minister of Education is not prepared to see to the legitimacy of this amendment. We have seen and heard that during the discussion of the Ministers they have always mentioned that once the teachers or intellectuals do not toe the line they will have their salary scales affected. ·

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Where do you get that? That is nonsense. MR . NOGCANTSI : And this has been seen on many occasions that some of them have suffered such a loss. I will quote one example just impromptu. There is Ngangelizwe Secondary School where prior to the coming of Mr. Ndamse there was a teacher. That teacher has been victimized in order to get Ndamse in. So we are not quoting from the air. We are quoting from concrete examples. (Interjections ) Further, you must not just take us as individual people who have just come here to waste time . We have come here to protect the interests of the electorate. Whether you pay a deaf ear to such representation we do not mind, as long as we have spoken. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But don't try to kill us because you say talking doesn't help.

MR . NOGCANTSI : We know you cannot squeeze blood from a stone. We have been trying to inject some sense into some of the Ministers on the other side . That is why we want to have this written down. One question I would like answered is whether a principal who has been transferred as an assistant teacher should have his scale determined according to the wishes of the Minister. As far as I understand, before you assume the position of a teacher you know beforehand what salary you are likely to draw, but for the first time I have

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , with the leave of my seconder, Mr. Nogcantsi , I hoped to accept assurance given me by the hon. the Minister of Education and I am sure he will accept it too. If he will give me leave I will withdraw the amendment.

2001 ster

H 122 sec

C MR . NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman, in view of what has been said I will agree to withdraw the amendment. Clause 10 of the Bill put and agreed to.

SCO On Clause 11 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I move that clause 11 be adopted. Sub-section (a) of this clause ensures that teachers will not forfeit any pension rights enjoyed by them prior to this Act. (b) provides for the continued payment of Govemment contributions to pension funds that were in force in the Republic prior to the commencement of this Act . This was the position : There are teachers in the field who were teaching under the Cape Provincial system and when Bantu Education came into force those teachers continued paying their pension contributions through Bantu Education to the Cape Provincial Administration . Now we have taken over and we shall continue getting the contributions from these tecchers and transferring those contributions to the Cape Provincial Administration, because there is a contract with that Administration . MR. GUZANA: Via the Republican Goverment? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , here is a question. I would like to know from the hon. the Minister of Education as to what part they will play during the time of the refund of those contributions, because during the time when the money is being transmitted from the Transkei via the Republic to the Province they serve a very important role , but when it comes back they are silent. I have not known a single case where such money has been refunded. I am one of the victims that has lost that money . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I, like the last speaker, had a similar contract with the Cape Provincial Administration . He says he has not heard of one who gets his money back. MR. NOGCANTSI : Were you favoured?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , I get mine back because I stuck to the contract until I -265-

789

attained pensionable age . He left before he reached that age. He broke the contract and naturally forfeited what he had paid in. Now if people who contribute towards this fund stick on until they reach this pensionable age we , who act as agents , withdraw from the picture and the Administration and the teacher deal with each other direct. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, this morning we had a question for reply when it was said that teachers who had been contributing to the pension fund in the Cape should have their pensions transferred. I wonder if I understood properly that the money which is paid in is sent to the Republican Government and from there to the Provincial Administration? (Interjections) What will be the position when the new scheme is in operation?

not get sent to Grahamstown , anyway. MR. NOGCANTSI : Apart from going to Grahamstown, at least, I would like the hon. Minister to give us a good explanation as to whether the secondment of White officials to the Department is really essential in this Department . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, with regard to the first part of the question , I think a similar question was asked a few weeks back and I gave a full answer to that, I am not prepared to add one word more. With regard to the second one , there are many posts in the teaching profession where we have not enough of our own people to fill those posts. MR . NOGCANTSI: E.g.?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is optional. The teacher will decide which fund he will belong to. I second the adoption of clause 11.

Clause 11 put and agreed to. On Clause 12 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in regard to sub-section 12 (1) it is considered necessary to empower the Minister to transfer any teacher to any teaching post if he considers such transfer to be in the interests of education. In sub- section (2) the salary of a teacher so transferred is protected , unless the said teacher is transferred after having been found guilty of misconduct and/or inefficiency as provided for in sections 16 and 17. Sub- section 3 provides for the seconding of departmental officials . This is a common practice in education which allows for the exchange of teachers on a reciprocity basis in order to give or obtain special knowledge and experience.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In secondary and higher education particularly , in subjects like English, Afrikaans and mathematics . There is a great shortage of those particular teachers and we shall need the services of seconded officials for some time. Clause 12 put and agreed to.

On Clause 13 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I would like to motivate sub-section (3). This sub-section enables the Minister to retire a teacher who, in the opinion of the Department, has because of ill-health or any other reason lost his usefulness as a teacher, without resorting to the drastic step of discharging him and thereby making him forfeit his pension rights at such a late stage in his teaching career. The inclusion of this sub-section affords a greater measure of security to older teachers than heretofore. Clause 13 put and agreed to.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know from the hon. Minister as to whether it

On Clause 14 would not be appropriate that the transfer should be accompanied by stated reasons , because what is worrying some of the transferees is that no reasons usually are stated . Even this phrase which is always advanced as being " in the interests of the Department" is very ambiguous . The Department itself should be aware of the fact that the Department itself is composed of the personnel. It cannot just be an abstract Department. Further, I would like to find out from the Minister of Education whether this secondment is absolutely essential as far as the educated personnel of the Transkei are concerned because , particularly in the Department of Education , that Department is fully furnished with material.

MR.

GUZANA:

Mr.

Chairman , I

move the

amendment to section 14 (1) (f), to delete paragraph (ii) and to substitute therefor: "she is guilty of misconduct of a moral nature" . Sir, my objection to the words used there is really aesthetic. The terminology there sounds rather crude and for an act of parliament to provide some sort of punishment for an unmarried female person who becomes pregnant, or gives birth to a child, sounds very, very crude indeed . A spade by another name will still be a spade, and I feel that the words suggested should serve the purpose adequately. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , I second the amendment.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Except for English teachers .

MR. NOGCANTSI : I wonder whether the African teachers themselves would be seconded to the Republican Government? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What for? NOGCANTSI : Because these seconded who are above the jurisdiction of our Ministers are really superfluous and unnecessary. MR . officials

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I have every sympathy with my hon . friend. The words do seem crude but I have in mind my hon. friend appearing in another capacity where , if we accept his amendment, he would find that the interpretation is rather too wide . The Department is not so much concemed with matters of seduction, but it is concerned with pregnancy and childbirth and we feel that your amendment is rather wide in scope.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They did

MR.

-266-

GUZANA: Would you agree that if my

amendment were accepted you could, by regulation , be more specific as to the conditions you are particularly interested in , and therefore rather than limit the provision, make it as wide as possible so that you can regulate within the wide field of the amendment?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That the two words we are particularly interested in should appear in the regulations? MR. GUZANA: You may well have them appearing in the regulations . You have conceded that the amendment seeks to have a wide field covered, and if the field is wider so much the better, in that discipline may be maintained even where pregnancy or childbirth has not followed. But if you seek to limit yourself to pregnancy and childbirth then, knowing that the provision in the Act gives you a wider scope towards the maintenance of discipline, you can stipulate in the regulations exactly what misconducts you wish to have covered. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We have that in section 15 .

what is taking place at Mount Frere. Further, I should stop that because if he is inconsistent on that I shall have to deal with him very severely. (Laughter) I would like therefore to know from the hon. the Minister of Education whether there is some moral justification in discharging a person who has undergone sub- section (i ) and sub-section (ii) under (f), because as far as (ii) is concerned if someone has given birth to a child that person is entitled to maternity leave. GOVERNMENT woman?

MEMBERS:

An

10

unmarried

MR. NOGCANTSI : I have already said that sub-section (ii) is dependent on sub-section (i), if she marries after being unmarried. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It talks about an unmarried person , not a married woman.

MR. NOGCANTSI : I therefore wonder whether these are not concomitants because no one would become pregnant without being married. (Laughter)

22 MR. GUZANA : Yes , but are you going to connive at an immoral association between a married man and an unmarried woman? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You mean where it does not lead to pregnancy? MR. GUZANA: Yes. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , we shall not do that.

MR. GUZANA: Well, that is why I am suggesting the provision should be as wide as possible and then by regulation you may pinpoint it to the matters which concem you. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think in this case I would rather get the opinion of the House before doing that. MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , I am not clear on section 14 (1) (b) as to why this servant should be left in the lurch or abandoned , since the abolition of his post is not his responsibility . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I would like first of all to know if we have disposed of Mr. Guzana's amendment in regard to ( f) ( ii ). MR. NOGCANTSI: Let me say a word on that, Mr. Chairman. In relation to (f) (i ) I do not know what is wrong morally when a person gets married and she is still desirous of continuing her services. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We are dealing with (f) (ii). MR . NOGCANTSI : Further, ( f) (ii) is dependent on (i) because no one can easily become pregnant without having undergone (f) (ii ) and there are many forms of getting married. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Not the one you practise in Mount Frere. MR. NOGCANTSI : I am sorry the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry is singleminded on this issue , because he is thinking of

MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I rise to support the amendment. There is not much to be discussed really on this amendment. All we want is to have a thorough understanding of this sentence. It is merely that the words in this sentence are rather crude and should not come from a House such as this one , with civilised members. The hon . Minister has explained that this amendment is all-embracing but we feel it is rather crude as the sub-section stands and such words should not be used by this House . You have the right, however, to put it in the regulations but we would rather that these words were removed from the actual Act. It is for that reason that I rise to support the amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am, like you, a religious person and there are certain words which have an unpleasant sound, but what happens here and what happens with congregations is that these things find their way into a court of law where one is sometimes faced with a wrong interpretation which one has himself placed on a word. Let me quote you the story of a man who was a Barolong. He was found on the streets after curfew and he was placed under arrest. He consulted a lawyer and the lawyer, after reading the charge, asked him what tribe he belonged to. The man replied that he was a Barolong. Now the attomey advised him to plead not guilty and during the proceedings in court the prosecutor contended that the man had been found on the streets after curfew, he being a Black man, and that therefore he had contravened the law. The lawyer read the definition of the word "Native” in which certain tribes were mentioned but among them was no word " Barolong" . The man was found not guilty , the contention being that he was not a Native · he was a Barolong. That is the difficulty facing us. We want these words to be reflected in the law itself so that the people should know it is these two evils which we really object to. There are quite a number of laws which contain cruder words than the ones complained of and therefore my Department cannot find its way clear to deleting these words in the Bill itself.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know, where the hon. Minister refers -267-

S

saying that one cannot stop the crows flying over one's head , but one can stop them nesting on one's head. I think if the members insist on this we shall have to resort to a vote because I am not prepared to retreat one iota.

to a lady teacher being discharged when found pregnant, what about the person who has caused the pregnancy? Is he not breaking the law? If you agree with me then the person who has caused the pregnancy should also be discharged, or is that embodied in section 15 (i )? Are you merely saying that you are making this Legislative Assembly a court of law, although it is not a court of law? Why does the Minister, if he knows that he is going to bring all these details into regulations , leave them out here? There was no need to bring forward such things as this. You have got them already embodied in section 15. I say the hon. Minister should try and put things in a nice way.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think the question of this amendment has been thoroughly discussed and therefore I will propose that we move to the next amendment before we take a vote on the amendment in this particular clause . There is an amendment by the hon . Mr. J.N. Busakwe to section 14 (4).

MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my amendment is that the words "medical practitioner nominated by the Minister" should be deleted and the words " district surgeon" substituted therefor in this particular sub-clause. District surgeons are the doctors who should be

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : (Inaudible question) CHIEF NDAMASE: I was merely using that word "court" because you used it. This is not a court of law. You put this Legislative Assembly in the same light as a court of law. Do you realise that you have authority to say anything you like to say, and you know in the Act you can just put things widely, as our leader pointed out? We are merely asking you to put words that will fit in . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Minister anything to reply?

Has

used by the Government and that is why I move this amendment. I will not add anything else to that. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. second the amendment.

the hon.

Chairman , I rise to

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is necessary for this amendment to be acceded to because it is understood that the doctor that will be nominated by the Minister is the Govemment doctor. I do not think the Government can refer a teacher to a private practitioner . No goverment has ever done that, but it happens that these people consult private doctors and in those circumstances the Govemment doctor has no way of coming into the picture at all.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Nothing, Mr. Chairman. MR. GUZANA: You will agree that the consensus of opinion of the House is against the words and I think you did request that you would hear what the reaction of the House is before you decided whether to accept the amendment. Now, having had that consensus of opinion, I did submit whilst you were on your feet , Sir, that my amendment becomes general so that you may become specific in the regulation . The amendment does not derogate from the intention you have in mind. It rather extends that intention to cover a wide field and I am sure you do not seek to have an Immorality Education Act, (Laughter) for these words may well be relevant to a bill seeking to control the morals of persons in the Transkei . Your Education Act must be , in itself and in its words and terminology and impression , an instrument of education even to the people, and they must have no cause to speak derogatorily about the Minister and his attitude to morals , as will be the case if this section is embodied in this law as it stands . I am sure the hon . Minister will accept this amendment. Even in a case before the courts we work from the general to the particular, rather than from the particular to the general . Thus a person may well be guilty of an immoral act, but be not pregnant nor give birth to a child, but if she is pregnant and an unmarried woman and gives birth as an unmarried woman then she has contravened a moral code of behaviour. I seek that the provision may be general so that the particular may be provided for under regulation.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is why it is necessary that the Government should have a say in the matter, and even when the patient goes to the district surgeon I do not think the Govemment can doubt that man's diagnosis because he was sworn in before he took the post; but in a statute of this nature we cannot say the patient must go to So-and-So. Even if we say a doctor nominated by the Minister it is understood that it is a Government doctor.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am afraid I am not at all prepared to retreat from the step I have taken. I think the general aspect is provided for in section 14 ( 1 ) ( e) . We particularly want this one to appear as it is . I had hoped to get a consensus of opinion , as I stated , but I am afraid I did not get it. The allegation that I will become known as a Minister who propounds moral Acts does not disturb me in the least. There is an old

MR. GUZANA: That is just exactly what we are trying to provide against. I say the private medical practitioner may be very partial to a person referred to him , the person having been an old and long-standing patient of his, and the Minister may have nominated this particular private practitioner without a knowledge of the fact that the person to be examined is an old patient of the doctor. Without casting any aspersions on private

MR. GUZANA : Well, you see, this will place an obligation on a person to go to a district surgeon as against a private practitioner who may well be biased in favour of the teacher who may be his long-standing patient, for instance.

MR. GUZANA: Will you accept that if a doctor other than the district surgeon is nominated , then the particular individual is not obliged to go to that doctor? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think if the Minister nominates a certain doctor to do the examination , and the teacher is not willing to be examined by that doctor, then that will be regarded as misconduct.

-268-

practitioners, the human element enters into the picture but where you have a man like the district surgeon, state- employed and having now to discharge an official duty as distinct from a duty which he has to perform in relation to his old client, then you are bound to receive such a report as may be said to be completely above-board . Now if the hon. Minister says he is not at variance with the sentiments I have expressed, then the provision as it stands in the Bill is at variance with the sentiments we share commonly , and it is with a view to embodying those sentiments in the Bill that we seek to suggest that the words "district surgeon" should be substituted for these words. Can the hon. Minister really say why he will not accept this amendment, since it seeks to place everything above suspected partiality in favour of the patient?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is always done. Well, I think I had better submit to this amendment in this case , but should there be any other service we will have to amend this. MR. GUZANA: Hear, hear. The granite wall has yielded. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman………. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What are you going to say now, hon. member? Have you anything to add?

MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, the hon . Minister has conceded to the amendment. He says however that if it is not possible for the district surgeon to attend to such patient... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, you seem to be out of this amendment. We have to confine ourselves to the amendment which has

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Supposing there is no district surgeon?

been accepted, so let us pass on.

MR. GUZANA: There is one in every district. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There are periods when one has not been appointed to fill a vacancy . MR. GUZANA: When that happens the particular individual can be referred to the district surgeon in the next town. I know this has been done under other departments and I think the civil service regulations require that a district surgeon be consulted when a matter of health is involved.

MR. GUZANA: I shall certainly do so, Sir, and give the hon. the Minister of Education some homework. The amendment seeks to incorporate in section 14 (4) a provision whereby the person examined by the district surgeon is reimbursed in a case where the results of the medical examination are negative. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Does the person examined have to pay the district surgeon? MR. GUZANA: It may be so , or it may not be so. Can we be assured that a person examined by a district surgeon in that capacity need not pay?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That will be the case here. The Government does not deal with private doctors.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, I think that is the case. I think the Department is obliged to pay for all medical examinations .

MR. GUZANA : In as much as the hon. the Minister of Education refused the amendment in the previous section because he said we specifically require the word " pregnant" and giving birth to a child, so do we seek here to be very specific and say "district surgeon " . It is exactly the same.

MR. GUZANA : And also when you say "medical examinations " you must take into account the case of a teacher living fifteen miles from the village.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Just make it wide now. Dance to your own tune now. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Fifty cents bus

fare . MR. GUZANA: When I am dancing the foxtrot, you want to dance the waltz . (Laughter) This amendment seeks to be specific and seeks to give a colour of impartiality to a report by a medical practitioner.

MR. GUZANA : Along the road to which there is no bus. I wonder if the Department would consider then giving such an individual transport allowance, for instance, or free transport or anything like that, to make it easy for the individual to be available for the examination which is required by the Govemment?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think if things were to remain as they are at present no one would quarrel with this , but I think my Department has in mind the organisation of the whole medical service under the Department.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Department is obliged to meet all expenses .

MR. GUZANA : Now your acceptance of "district surgeon' disposes of the amendment I sought to put in. As you will realise I had to have a doubleedged sword so that if the granite wall would not yield from the top I would get it from the side. (Laughter) With this amendment then of "district surgeon" my amendment falls away and I will leave it at that.

MR . GUZANA: Why? Isn't that rather ambitious? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If we accept this then we will have shut ourselves out if we specify a district surgeon . MR. GUZANA: Would you not use a district surgeon who is recognised by the Government and is paid by the Govemment? You are a Government Department - why not use a district surgeon? You nominate the district surgeon as you are hoping to have the medical services under your Department why not use your own nominee?

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 Thursday, 2nd June, 1966 . -269-

a.m. on

P

1

THURSDAY, 2ND JUNE, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , before we proceed I just want to point out that there was a breakdown in the machinery at the printers and the work had to be very hastily done, so any mistakes will be rectified. If any member finds anything not as it should be, he will please let us know so that the mistake can be corrected. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment , confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENT. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to announce to the House that the discussion on the committee stage of the Education Bill will go on this morning until 1 o'clock and then adjoum until 11 a.m. tomorrow, as I have another engagement this afternoon. TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE. 03

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House resolve itself into committee. THE MINISTER Chairman.

OF ROADS : I

second, Mr.

Agreed to. L House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , yesterday when we adjourned we were dealing with clause 14 , and certain amendments had been moved. The hon. Mr. J.N. Busakwe moved an amendment to clause 14 (4) and that amendment was accepted by the Minister. Again , the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana moved an amendment to section 14 (4) and that amendment was withdrawn. We are therefore left with only one amendment by the hon. Mr. Guzana in respect of section 14 (1) (f) (ii ), to which I shall put the question this morning . The question is the deletion of sub-paragraph (ii ) and the substitution thereof of the following: " she is guilty of misconduct of a moral nature ."" " The amendment was lost by 36 votes to 46.

Clause 14 of the Bill, as amended, put and Si agreed to. On Clause 15 MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may we request the hon . Minister to motivate clause 15 (f) and (h)? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I shall start with (a), Mr. Chairman. In drawing up this section a careful study has been made of Education Acts and Ordinances relating to the conditions of service of teachers employed in state and provincial departments in the Republic. This definition therefore

follows the same pattern and introduces nothing new. With regard to sub-section (f) I think it is very clear: If " he publicly, otherwise than at a meeting convened by an association or organization recognized by the Minister as representative of departmental officials , criticizes the administration of any department, office or institution of the Government."

MR. GUZANA: "Departmental officials" does include teachers also? 16900 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. Subsection (h) reads : " he attempts to secure intervention, through any person who is not in the employment of the Department, in relation to his position and conditions of service , unless it is done to obtain redress of any grievance through the Legislative Assembly" . That also is very clear, Mr. Chairman. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, it might appear under (h) that a teacher employed by the Department is handicapped in canvassing his position of security in the employ of the Department by this section. A situation may arise where a teacher feels that he has an action against the Department where, for instance, he has been charged with serious misconduct and it is found that he is not guilty of that misconduct and he wants to found an action for damages . He consults a legal adviser who may address a letter to the Department, putting the position on behalf of the teacher, and there might well be a compromise entered into between the Department and the aggrieved party . It may happen that the Department's reply to a letter sent by the legal representative may be of such a nature that the matter is disposed of to the satisfaction of the aggrieved party and no subsequent action follows . Now this sub- section seems to preclude such an official from making representations through a legal adviser to the Department . A further condition is that he cannot secure anybody to represent him unless it is done to obtain redress of any grievance through the Legislative Assembly , which seems to exclude a legal representative who cannot appear before this House to make representations on his behalf. Furthermore , matters in this House are decided by majority vote and , whilst majority vote may prevail , that does not necessarily mean. that justice has been done to an aggrieved person. May I know if we are to understand that that is the position , or is it that a person can make representations to the Department through a legal adviser or an attorney in matters which may be settled as between him and the Department, or in matters that may subsequently lead to litigation involving him and the Department? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think in any matters affecting the misconduct of a teacher the position of the teacher is safeguarded. If the Department appoints a commission of inquiry the teacher concerned is allowed to obtain a legal adviser, and I think this section only refers to matters of promotion and salaries . Furthermore, the Department is encouraging teachers to organise themselves into an association where the grievances of that kind can be brought to the notice of the Department by their representatives . MR. GUZANA : What would happen in a case where a teacher is aggrieved over a salary adjustment , he makes representations and the Department

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does not meet him and he feels that he has to make further representations through an attorney, for instance? Does this not preclude him from briefing somebody who will represent him and put his views?

any person does not specifically refer to an attomey, thus the president of a teachers ' association may intervene. He is now precluded under this section. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is not precluded. We say "anyone who is not in the employment of the Department " .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Can you suggest to me any case where an attomey will be required for the adjustment of a teacher's salary?

MR. GUZANA: The president may be an exteacher and he may belong to the association . There may be teachers who retire young from the profession and may be members of the association.

MR. GUZANA: A is teaching at a higher primary school. The Department, in the interests of the Department, transfers him to a lower primary school principalship and there is probably consequential reduction of emoluments. He makes representations and feels aggrieved over the fact that his emoluments have been reduced , He makes representations to the Department and the Department does not accede to his representations and he may feel that his case may be more clearly put by a legal representative. His attorney, writing in a friendly tone, makes representations on his behalf. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Free of charge?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is provided for in (f). SHE MR. GUZANA: That's right. Now, he wants to make representations on behalf of a teacher. The teacher has spoken about this matter at a teachers' meeting and the president who is no longer employed by the Department.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Which president? A president of a teacher's association must be employed by the Department. He cannot be otherwise president of the association.

MR. GUZANA : That is an attorney/client relationship. Probably because of those representations the Department sees eye to eye with the aggrieved teacher, a solution that was not possible to reach when the teacher made direct representations without securing the services of a legal adviser. That is an example which I bring on the spur of the moment.

MR. GUZANA: Well, assuming he is not the president but he has retired and he belongs to the association. He is asked to make representations on behalf of a teacher who has a grievance.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , in all matters of administration the officers of any government do not like interference in administration by attorneys.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is precisely why this provision is there. It seeks to exclude people who are not on the establishment because people might have other motives and might not have the interests of the establishment at heart.

MR GUZANA: They need not like it. That is not necessary. (Laughter)

15

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MR. GUZANA: I would take it that any body who belongs to a teachers' association , even after he has left the establishment , would have the interests of the teachers at heart, otherwise he would not belong to the association.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is also the case in land administration where the matter is dealt with by the headman and the magistrate . Usually the officials pay no attention to representations made by attorneys. However, there is nothing to stop an attorney giving advice to his client in putting forward his case to the Govemment. In other words the attorney is free to advise his client and even to draft a letter for him to write to the Department. Now suppose we were to open the door for such communications between the Departments and the attorneys, how far would we go? It means that the Government will have to correspond with people who have no right whatsoever to interfere in these matters .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I will tell you the Cape Coloured Teachers ' Association dragged into politics by people who were members of the association and as a result it plunged into chaos.

that was not was

MR. GUZANA: Now if an employee of the Department seeks representation he is not going to get anybody who has ulterior motives to represent him. He is going to seek the best person to put his case before the Department.

MR. GUZANA: But may I say that the attorney is not interfering or intruding into a matter. He is merely acting for his client. He is not intruding his person into the affair. It is his client who is having a matter with the Department and is having that matter put by the attomey without the attomey obtruding himself into the matter at all. THE CHIEF MINISTER: put an end to that because attorney may even prejudice ministrators do not want to be

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: He might get the best politician. He might even get a communist. MR. GUZANA : Now what redress is likely to be had by referring this through the Legislative Assembly? Isn't that rather futile seeing that matters are decided by majority vote?

Well, we shall just the intrusion of the his client . The adinterfered with in the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that he has a right to get the advice of anybody , provided the correspondence with the Department is done by him. So the attorney may draft all his letters to and fro all the time, provided the letters are signed by him. The Department cannot say that this is a letter from an attorney .

administration by attorneys . They want to deal directly with the aggrieved party, so as a matter of principle we feel it would not be in the interests of the administration for attomeys to interfere in these matters .

MR. GUZANA: Now you seek that these people should get the services of an attorney in a secret way .

MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are standing, Sir, you say " intervention through any person" and

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H

aftemoon. Of course , I did mention it when we came in here this morning. I wonder then whether to move these amendments as I am ready to move. In regard to sub-section (k)....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : By way of advice.

MR .

GUZANA :

Yes ,

without the

attomey

intervening, although in effect what the attorney says gets to the Department through the complainant. Why can't the attorney direct the correspondence - or any other person , for that matter, direct the correspondence to the Department?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Have you been allowed to move?

MR. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That might prejudice the aggrieved party. MR. GUZANA: So he cannot come to you, for instance, to make representations to the Department?

NOGCANTSI:

Silence

means

consent.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have still to deal with (j) first, then we will come to (k). THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon . Mr. Bubu gave notice to move an amendment in connection with sections (g) and (j ) .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , he cannot.

2 MR. GUZANA: How often have you intervened? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I have not intervened at all. MR. GUZANA: I wonder. Now this last part "unless it is done to obtain redress of any grievance through the Legislative Assembly" . Does that really provide redress for the individual? 1

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : It does, because the members of the Legislative Assembly will go into the matter thoroughly irrespective of party affiliations. They will find out whether the person who is a complainant has a justified complaint. MR. GUZANA: Supposing he has this grievance as a result of treatment meted out to him by a Minister? Is it likely that the Goverment will say: We will take this above party politics and discuss the matter objectively in the Legislative Assembly. THE CHIEF MINISTER : As I said yesterday, the Ministers are far above these matters . They usually have memoranda on the matters and they act on the advice of the Department. It is difficult for you to get this out of your mind, that the Minister who happened to sign the document is acting alone without the advice of the Department.

MR . GUZANA: Yes , we have heard that. The point is this: In my speaking to this sub-section I said this official of the Department may well be contemplating legal action against the Department and he gets somebody to intervene , but because of the reply he gets from the Department of Education the matter is resolved. Now you will have this man charged with misconduct .

MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move the amendment which seeks to delete the words "of any party political organisation or" occurring after the word "member" in paragraph (g). Without reading through the whole paragraph, Mr. Chairman , I think I can say that the words I am seeking to delete are those which relate to a departmental official being a member of any party political organisation. The amendment seeks that a departmental official should be allowed to be a member of a party political association because such membership does not militate against the official's successful performance of his duties. I agree that if he is a member of a party political organisation and seeks actively to promote the aims of that organisation, then his activity may conflict with the nature of his duties , but if he is merely being a member of an organisation , that does not in any way undermine the efficient performance of his duties as such official. Fortunately, lower down in the sub-section there is provision against his participating actively in political matters . I think that is quite right and I think it meets adequately the requirements of sub-section (g) , because I think, Mr. Chairman , that a departmental official should be allowed to hold certain views which relate to the country in which he lives . Therefore I feel that if he becomes a member of a party political organisation it is because he holds those views and he wants to align himself with that organisation which furthers those views. Consequently, Mr. Chairman, I feel that we should not preclude him from such membership by providing the part of this sub-section which says that he is guilty of misconduct if he becomes a member of any party political organisation . I think, Mr. Chairman, that what I am seeking here is actually what is happening in the country at the moment of speaking, because I know that some teachers have been persuaded and are still being persuaded to become members of the T.N.I.P.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is nothing wrong if he gets a letter from the attorney and signs it himself. It is just the same. The attomey will act for him in a case of legal dispute on the strength of his letter which he drafted for his client.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about the Democratic Party? We are stopping them from being members of the T.N.I.P. MR. BUBU : I therefore feel there is no harm in their being members , provided they do not take part actively in promoting the ends of those orga nisations. It is as simple as that.

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman, with the leave of the House I wish to make mention that I had two amendments here - that is , on clause 15 (k) and (p). Those amendments were submitted to the Secretary but they have not appeared in this order paper.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Suppose the party organised an anti- Government demonstration and the teacher is a member of that party?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : When? Where are they?

MR. BUBU: Well , if the party organised an anti-Government demonstration the party as such

MR. NOGCANTSI : That was done yesterday -272-

is free to do so , but not the teacher. THE CHIEF MINISTER : But the teacher is identified with the party as a member. MR. BUBU: But he would not be allowed to join in because he would be taking an active part in party politics and such active participation should be prevented.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: And if he encourages the demonstration secretly? MR. BUBU: If he does that he must be found out and it must be proved that he has encouraged it, in which case of course he becomes guilty of misconduct. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think you are putting the teachers in a difficulty.

MR. BUBU: I am not putting them in a difficulty , but I am seeking here that as a Legislative Assembly we should keep the teachers as free individuals in our society , but who should be restrained from carrying on activities which are prejudicial to the efficiency of the performance of their duties . I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman . MR. O.O. MPONDO: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am afraid I cannot accept this amendment. A teacher, like all Government servants , is precluded from taking part in politics.

excluded. I can give instances and names of teachers who go out helping on the views of the Government party. Only this day I would give you an instance.....(Interjections) I therefore stand to second whole-heartedly the amendment. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall not put these amendments until we have dealt with all those under clause 15. The next one is also by the hon. Mr. Bubu. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that section 15 (j ) be amended by the insertion of the word "habitually" after the word " he" . I accept the sub- section as it is otherwise because I believe that a departmental official such as a teacher should be encouraged not to use intoxicants or stupefying drugs excessively, but having regard to the fact that a teacher may sometimes use intoxicants and such drugs excessively once in a while , I feel that such teacher should be protected through the insertion of the word " habitually " into that sub-section. In other words, Mr. Chairman , I am seeking to say he should be regarded as guilty of misconduct only when he habitually uses intoxicants excessively. Action under those circumstances may be taken against him properly by the Department, but if it is something that just happens once in a while , it is something that should not really be regarded as misconduct. Sometimes I have known that Goverment officials have some times wanted people to be happy and have brought along a number of bottles of intoxicants , and I think it would be very unfair if action were taken against such people if they partook of that excessively.

E

MR. BUBU: Taking part - yes . We agree there. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When I assumed this office as Minister of Education I went round addressing teachers in the whole Territory, warning them against this sort of thing. A teacher is the property of the community . He cannot associate himself with one side or the other without disturbing the peace of the community, but as a citizen a teacher is a registered voter and he can go and register his vote without attaching himself to a certain party, and he can vote for that member whose views he shares. On that score , therefore, I do not accept that amendment at all.

MR . MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, if the hon. Minister truly upheld the views he expresses we would not be opposed to him . The trouble is simply this · that he does not act as he speaks . Now as I stand here it is a known fact that they have agents at Willowvale and elsewhere in the Transkei who are busy enrolling teachers as members of the T.N.I.P. Of a truth there is nothing wrong with teachers belonging to one or the other of the parties. What we object to is that he should be taking an active part in promoting the views of party political organisations. What we note is that a teacher is regarded as taking part in party political matters if he speaks in the language of the Opposition party . But at all times he can stand on the housetops so long as he speaks the language of the T.N.I.P.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Surely no action can be taken against a man who has done it once.

MR. BUBU : That is exactly why I say provision should be made against that by incorporating this word " habitually " in the sub- section. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: How do you prove a habit? It will be difficult for anyone to prove that he does it habitually. MR. BUBU: It may be for you , but it would not be for me. Take the case of a teacher who goes to school and carries a bottle of intoxicating liquor with him and he drinks and becomes drunk almost every day of the week. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If he does it twice or thrice, must it be allowed?

E MR. BUBU: Yes, he should just be reprimanded. It is only when it is a daily feature that he should be found guilty of misconduct. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : For all you know he may be doing it habitually but you only see him once or twice. MR . BUBU: That is just why I say it must be something that happens over a period of time.

time THE CHIEF MINISTER : Then he is not working against the Government.

=

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And in the mean...

MR . GUZANA : You habitually interject and I correctly accuse you of that.

MR. MPONDO: We would like the hon. Minister THE CHIEF MINISTER: Let me put this questherefore to put it firmly that if teachers are exstion: Are you not leading up to a situation when you cluded from party politics they must be entirely -273-

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will only prove it when these people are tramps, because only tramps are recognized as habitual drunks?

the impression that this sub-section seeks to stop addiction to liquor, but it is not interfering with the person who is trying to while away his troubles and worries. No one should be forced to abstain from

MR. BUBU: I am not creating such a situation as you are describing. You will find that in European schools the teachers are never guilty of using intoxicants excessively.

liquor when he wants it because, as far as I understand, an intoxicant means any type of liquor. Now the use of liquor sometimes is just as a form of entertainment. It is always unfortunate and something unexpected that the target becomes drunken excessively. Everyone is aiming at using it under restraint, so I cannot see why the hon. the Minister of Education is trying to quarrel with the suggested incorporation of the word " habitually", because he himself is part and parcel of the community and the community itself is composed of the intellectuals called teachers. Furthermore, whenever teachers will be going to the regional authorities to apply for posts they will be carrying some bottles.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We have our own ideas about that - don't worry. MR. BUBU: I appeal to the Minister to accept this provision so that it will only be when they use these things habitually. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Will you concede that this is European liquor and they do not drink it as we do?

MR. BUBU: If you want teachers to drink as the Europeans do you must have a social club to teach them how to drink properly. THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is one way of teaching them. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . BUBU: Mr. Chairman, it is as simple as that and I move accordingly.

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: I second, Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think in the language of the last speaker the inclusion of " habitually" is mere tautology. I think my hon. friend is trying to split hairs. The word "excessively" is very comprehensive. It may not be an excess in quantity of liquor; it also embraces the space of time. My hon. friend requires me to keep a register of how often this man is drunk.

MR. GUZANA: Leave it to the school committee to do that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, but I am afraid I cannot accept the amentment. MR. GUZANA: Give us reasons. Don't just say you are not accepting it.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is just what we are trying to discourage.

MR. NOGCANTSI: I would understand it better that the regional authorities themselves should fall under the same category. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , it has been suggested by the hon. the Minister of Education that to include the word " habitually" , since we already have the word "excessively" , will amount to tautology. Now "excessively" may well be used to describe a situation where I, for instance, who am a teetotaller, take liquor which I cannot carry. Thus I may drink a tot of brandy and behave in a manner that is disgraceful and I may be described as having taken liquor excessively. Now that will relate to that one incident only, and it can be described as an excessive intake of liquor. Now the word " habitually" connotes repeated acts of imbibing intoxicants. He may not get drunk but he will habitually take liquor, the type of person who is always having something but does not get drunk. Such a situation is not intolerable to an official of the Department, but if he habitually takes intoxicants to the extent that every time he may be said to have taken them excessively , then we consider that he has behaved in a manner which will lay him open to a charge of misconduct. Now I remember the other day receiving a very warm invitation from the hon. the Minister of Education to attend a party in the evening. Well , the table was decorated with various shapes and sizes and colours of intoxicant containers.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has given reasons. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: We are not teachers.

MR. GUZANA: No, he has not. There is no tautology here. MR. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to reinforce the amendment of the last speaker. Of course I cannot see how the hon. the Minister of Education has connected " excessively" to that previous sentence that he uses intoxicants, because as far as I can see that distributive conjunction, or the first part of the sentence, is independent of the second part. I want to clarify the position further by saying that it would have been better if it had been said " drinking while on duty". Nobody would ever condone excess. Anything done in excess is waste. Even if one would eat porridge in excess that person would be condemned. (Laughter) Sometimes intoxicants are used medically and they are prescribed by doctors. I think therefore the incorporation of the word "habitually" between "he"

MR. GUZANA: Now I might have sought not to offend my host and taken some of this liquor, and then I might have had to be dragged out of the hall. I have known of other hon. Ministers throwing a party at the end of the year and bringing in these intoxicants and some of the civil servants partake of these intoxicants excessively, not habitually. Surely that person should not be victimized for having taken liquor excessively on that one occasion? Now you take the case of a Christening party and the father seeks to celebrate the occasion. It is the only daughter of the family after five boys. Or it may be an engagement party or a Christmas party of a birthday party, and the hon . the Minister of Education happens to be there and the teacher consumes

and "uses" fits in here quite acceptably. I am under -274-

liquor excessively on that day. Strictly speaking, he would be guilty of misconduct if we do not include this word "habitually". I put it to the Minister that he is in effect providing here for people who will be

teachers and who do not have to drink or, rather, who will be precluded from drinking altogether. Let us concede that a man now and again likes a tot, and let us allow him to have his tot. Surely the Govemment side knows what the consequences are when its ranks are depleted because many of its members are indisposed as a result of an excessive consumption, but you have never kicked out some of these hon. members from your party because they happen to have taken liquor excessively. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We are not dealing with the chiefs - we are dealing with the teachers .

MR. GUZANA: The standard of conduct is the same, whether you are a labourer or a chief or a teacher, and the mode of conduct is the same. Now if this is their food it is eating them up also; and let us not place the teachers in an invidious and very awkward position. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . GUZANA: Now you see, the hon . Chief concedes there that the thirst is the same in everybody, be he teacher, be he chief, be he labourer. I ask that this term ' habitually " be therefore included.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am informed by the Secretary that the hon . Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi did submit the amendments he mentioned , but these were inadvertently ommitted from the order paper. I shall now put the matter to this House that the hon. member be allowed to move the amendments under section 15. Agreed to. MR . N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman , in the light of a big "yes" from the Govemment party I think I will proceed with moving such amendment. I have this amendment under clause 15 (k) , and I am requesting to have the whole section deleted on the following grounds. Insolvency is usually - and, in fact, it is an unavoidable misfortune, and so there is no quibbling about that truism. Furthermore, insolvency is a private matter and as such I cannot see how it has been brought about here as something that has to be discussed publicly. Further, insolvency is • THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What do you say about this unavoidable misfortune? MR. NOGCANTSI : I say insolvency is an unavoidable misfortune. Why should we allow ourselves to encroach upon an individual liberty of a teacher when we know that insolvency almost arises from inadequate salary and that virtually all the African teachers are insolvent? It has only been fortunate that no one has yet disclosed that state of affairs. Who is to decide that a teacher is insolvent apart from the law of the court? Further, we have known through experience that most of the teachers are potential victims of traders and creditors. They cannot afford to be dressed shabbily when they are teachers. In such a case now they are forced and bound to commit themselves to these traders. Furthermore, they support a lot of dependants and they have big families. Every teacher is expected to send all his members of the family to school. It is always criminally considered against a teacher who has withheld sending his children to school. In other

words , therefore, these are the reasons why I would this whole section be deleted . I will pass on now to (p). THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is there any seconder?

MR. L.A. LUWACA: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it may be true that insolvency is a private matter, but the teacher is a public property and his social standing is such that he must abstain from insolvency, otherwise he is a bad example to the community in which he lives . It does not matter how little he gets in the form of a salary, he must try and live within his means. I hope my hon. friend has not only studied the dictionary, but I see he is busy with something else now. Does (p) stand for prison? (Laughter) I would advise him not to study the dictionary only. He must sometimes give himself time to study Charles Dickens and read particularly that book known as David Copperfield. He should take the advice that was given by Micawber to David: " My son, if you ever get £ 20 a year and you spend £20/0/6d. a year you will end up in gaol; but if you get £20 a year and you spend £19/ 19/6d. the result is happiness. " Now I would like teachers to take that advice so I cannot accept the amendment. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , to start with I think the idea of insolvency for an African teacher is a far-fetched one and it is something which should never have been brought into this House. The hon. the Minister of Education has told us that a teacher has a good social standing and I think he forgets that an African teacher is really inadequately paid. It automatically follows that since this teacher has been to school or college, he has been taught that he should have butter with his bread , milk with his tea, decent food and what-not · everything that keeps his body in good health. They must have warm , clean blankets and he has been taught that he has got to provide for his future and the future of his children. That means now that he has to keep a little money to pay insurances for the future of his children, so eventually, with the meagre pay he gets , he ends up with nothing left. I need not quote that before the advent of the Transkei Govemment an African teacher with the same qualification as a European teacher would be getting one-third or even less of what a European teacher gets . Mind you, he is aware of all the amenities whether he be white, pink or blue. Now insolvency, as has already been said, is really something very confidential, just between you and your creditors, and it would appear that now a teacher is even reduced not only to insolvency but also to goal if he cannot compromise with his creditors. If we had to put the cards on the table there is only about ten per cent of Africans who can keep their heads above water financially, so that what happens now is that if a certain individual has had a certain convenience to have a little money, he does not think of those who have not had that convenience. Mind you, in saying that I am not levelling that at the hon. Minister. I am just talking generally , but if the shoe pinches the wearer will feel it. If a teacher becomes insolvent and negotiates with his creditors for certain terms I do not see how a respectable Department of Education is going to poke its nose into a person's private affairs . This really spells insecurity and so, Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Minister of Education really should see that his teachers are not put under such difficult circumstances. I hope

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the hon. Minister will also remember that other teachers have even to take five years to pay their debts for their education and meanwhile Nature is having its way and the teacher is thinking of taking a wife because apparently he is about 28 years old. I hope therefore the hon. Minister will meet this request.

The debate was adjoumed .

any person or class of persons, subject, of course, to any conditions, restrictions and directions which might have been imposed upon such licence holders. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members , I now move the second reading of the Bill. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I second.

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : 1. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members, I rise to move the second reading of the Transkeian Liquor Laws Amendment Bill. 2. Mr. Chairman , the Transkeian Liquor Laws Amendment Act, 1965 was recently promulgated. Since the Act was passed by this Assembly last year, it has become evident that there is a degree of uncertainty as regards the position of the Whites in respect of the sale and consumption of liquor on licensed hotel premises in the Transkei. The purpose of this Bill is to clarify the position. 3. Proclamation No. 333 of 1949 is therefore being further amended (a) to restrict the consumption of liquor on licensed hotel premises to Bantu persons only;

(b) to make provision for the sale of liquor for consumption off such premises to any person; and (c) to enable licence holders other than Bantu licence holders to sell to persons other than Bantu persons for consumption on the premises.

4.

The effect of these amendments will be (a) that Bantu holders of hotel licences in respect of premises situated in the Transkei (i.e. the area described in section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963) may sell liquor (i) only to Bantu persons for consumption on the premises; (ii) to persons other than Bantu persons , only for consumption off the premises; and (b) that hotel licence holders other than Bantu licence holders may in the Transkei sell liquor (i) for consumption on the premises only to the persons or class of persons to whom they would have been entitled to sell , had the Liquor Laws Amendment Act, 1965 not been passed; and

(ii) for consumption off the premises, to

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it would appear to my mind that the purpose of this Bill is to prohibit the mixing of the races on premises where liquor is sold to be consumed on the premises. One wonders whether this is not a piece of ideological legislation because there has not been any embarrassment caused to any race by the possibility of races mixing to consume liquor on the premises. It is a pity that areas of contact between the races should become the subject of legislation just to reduce those areas of contact which make for tolerance and understanding amongst the races that live together in the Transkei, and if the races did meet it would be the exception rather than the usual thing on these premises. I can well imagine now, as a result of this legislation , a situation where a European friend cannot stand an African friend a drink on the premises of a hotel , and I have been told that those who consume liquor moderately are usually well disposed persons after they have taken some liquor. Is this legislation not going to curtail or reduce or, rather, positively eliminate that contact which was possible over a tot of brandy? I think it is the purpose of every Government to seek to promote contact amongst the different races that form South African society , and no legislation should seek to isolate races one from the other so that they are not given the opportunity to know each other better, understand each other better and work with each other more smoothly than previously. If the races do not want to drink together in a pub they will not mix voluntarily and that voluntary separation is a much better arrangement, which does not cause hard feelings, than compulsory separation which is implied in this Bill. Now the Bill also goes further than that and seeks to limit the consumption of liquor on the premises in respect of a Bantu holder of a hotel licence only to Africans. Now does the Minister of Justice contemplate a situation where a Bantu holder of a hotel licence may provide separate facilities for people other than Bantu, so that they also can consume their liquor on the premises? That is happening in the Republic where the Govemment seeks municipalities to provide separate facilities for the races on the same premises. That will certainly not worry your conscience politically , as a protagonist of "apartheid", but it will mean that anybody who holds a licence can cater for the whole public on his premises by providing separate facilities. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Whilst you are still standing I may tell you that the main Act and these amendments are merely a temporary measure . We are bringing an Act which will be a Liquor Act doing away with all these things. MR. GUZANA: This requires that the colour of the patch you are using should match the colour of trousers you are seeking to mend. I am thinking of this in terms of a hypothetical situation which I will

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describe. Between two villages of the Transkei a unit with European personnel is stationed - either a road unit working on the national road or a military unit and just about fifteen yards away from it a tribal authority has a hotel with a liquor licence. Now these young men , after having supper, want to go out and have some tots and here are the premises and they cannot get their liquor and consume it on the premises, just because a Bantu licence-holder is precluded from providing for them on his premises. But since the hon. the Minister of Justice has indicated that there will be an all-embracing Act later on , may I ask if he will bear this in mind? I see that he nods and I receive that nod, although from a bald head, with appreciation (Laughter) because it will really expand the area of opportunity for the Bantu hotel-owner if other races can buy liquor and consume it on his premises, but with separate facilities provided for them. You have indicated, Sir, that certain restrictions and directions on conditions may well be imposed upon non- Bantu licence-holders in the Transkei. Now the question of imposing restrictions upon a particular class of people ( and in this case it is a particular race) is not anything conducive to good business . Implicit in those restrictions is the idea that a race may well suffer a handicap by reason of the fact that he is not a member of another race.

a clarification Bill and one would have thought this would have been embodied in the 1965 Act. You see, these lapses on "apartheid" seem to indicate that these ministers are really not committed to the policy of "apartheid". THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Unfortunately we made the Bill together.

MR. GUZANA: Yes, but you have the thick end of the stick in your hand. Those are the comments I wished to make , Mr. Chairman , and express the hope that that all-embracing bill will come before this House very soon so that even the Bantu hotelier will have the opportunity to sell to anybody of any race on his premises , if he provides for separate facilities, the ideal however being that they should be allowed to consume their liquor together and let no law prevent that. MR . C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it would appear to me that these restrictions will have two effects. At the present time the Bantu of the Transkei do not seem to have the economic power to be able to have these hotels. (Interjections) What I am saying is the truth, in spite of what the hon. members on the other side are saying. My fear is that the Bantu people will now continually be kept in a position where they support the shebeen queens.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: May I remind you that the granting of licenses to these non -Bantu has already got its own conditions and restrictions , because they are regulated by this Proclamation 333. That is why this is inserted here · to maintain the status quo .

MR . MDA: All the hotels that can sell liquor are owned only by the whites, and for many years that situation will not change.

MR. GUZANA: So that those conditions which apply to non-Bantu may also apply to Bantu?

GOVERNMENT MEMBER: The change is coming soon. We are making provision for it.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The granting of licences to the Bantu will be regulated under the Act, not under the Proclamation and as far as that is concemed there are no restrictions at present.

MR. MDA: That means that unless the person has enough money to be able to purchase a full bottle he will not be able to consume it on the spot, whereas if he could buy it for a little less he could consume it. That is what enables people who sell beer without a licence to prosper. It is not easy for himto board a bus and pay bus fare of R1 and then up to R2 for a bottle of brandy. I agree that that is what they do, because that is what makes the shebeen queens prosper. Then the person who wants liquor realises he can buy it from a shebeen queen because even if he went to town he would have to pay the same amount, whereas if it was possible for him to buy liquor for as little as fifty cents he would consume it on the spot. I put before the Minister this matter for consideration . Mr. Chairman, I am referring all this to the hon. Minister. I am placing before him this matter for consideration so that when he comes to place before the House a bill that will comprise all these things he may not forget this.

MR. GUZANA: Under the 1965 Act? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes.

MR. GUZANA: But the provisions of Proclamation 333 of 1949 which have not been amended to date still apply to the Transkei? Is that not so? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes.

MR. GUZANA: Which means that those conditions which are embodied in that proclamation will automatically apply except in so far as you amend them .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why do you say that?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It will depend on the person granting the licence whether to impose them or not.

MR. GUZANA: In other words , the conditions under Proclamation 333 are not obligatory?

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wanted to say a few things in a nutshell. Last year when this Act was enacted it was given very wide publicity ...

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It wan not this THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No.

Act.

MR . GUZANA: If they may be imposed then I accept the provision of these restrictions , conditions that no one and directions, with this observation to have directions would like these conditions and trading prosperous the result of curtailing free and by the licence-holder. As I see the Bill, it is really -277-

and we were surprised MR. NOGCANTSI : • that it never took any shape last year. What we have seen lately is a series of amendments amending one another. Further, the Africans were promised that • they would be issued with hotel licences •

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June, Mr. Chairman .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Have you applied for one?

TRANSKEI POLICE BILL . SECOND READING

MR. NOGCANTSI : . . . and a host of them in consequence were tumed down. So far, what have seen in this amendment is that it is confined to the consumption of liquor. It says nothing about the profits that are likely to accrue to the businesses.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , before the hon. the Minister of Justice proceeds with his second reading speech on this Bill, I wish to make a special plea. We were supplied with copies of this Bill only this morning and one gets the impression now that a Bill such as this, which is laying the foundation of the police force in the Transkei , is being run through this Assembly without giving the opportunity to members of this House to study its implications adequately. I do feel that the hon . the Minister of Justice will concede the need for thoroughness in dealing with this Bill , however short

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: How can an Act say anything about profits? MR. NOGCANTSI: It must be understood that in the main our people are interested in making profits . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Liquor is one of the profitable businesses.

it may be. In fact , it is a long Bill of eight pages and my request is that, whilst the hon. Minister may well be allowed to give his speech in intro-

MR. NOGCANTSI: This Act therefore makes our people to be preyed upon by other races. Fancy a Coloured person who has no Colouredstan enjoying life in a hotel better than a Bantu who has a Bantustan ! But this has created some craving which cannot just be satisfied at once, and it has created a wrong conception that the people will get liquor freely from the hotels. Last year so many hotels were flooded with Africans (Laughter) and there are So many Africans who were disgruntled, firstly because they could not get their licences, and secondly that some of them were driven out of the bars. (Laughter)

ducing the Bill, the House should thereafter be given an opportunity to digest the Bill in relation to his speech. We could resume the second reading tomor row, Sir. I concede that he is very well prepared to read his speech now and I do not want to deny him that, but I think he must give us a chance to comment intelligently on his Bill.

THE CHAIRMAN : Are you prepared to do that? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Including you. THE CHAIRMAN : Well, if you want that you can even read your speech tomorrow moming. We shall adjourn till 11 a.m. tomorrow .

MR. NOGCANTSI : Why do you impose more restrictions on the Africans who are supposed to be emerging, or being emancipated? Are we marching to freedom or to independence, or backwards to domination or oppression? (Laughter) Why is there more attention given to European hotel licence- holders than should duly be given to African citizens? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is nothing of that sort in the Bill. Read the Bill. Don't mislead people. MR. NOGCANTSI: What I can see in this odious piece of legislation is the contrivance of getting our people to crave for what they cannot get. (Laughter) At least if this restriction has been lifted let our people get some profits from selling liquor. Can you say with certainty (I am referring this question to the hon. the Minister of Liquor - I am sorry, I mean • the Minister of Justice) (Laughter) . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You will be sued. That portfolio has been filled already . MR. NOGCANTSI: I refer this to you so that all this theory can be transferred into action. In fact it will be a relief to some of our members who are dozing now, because they have smuggled some liquor here, some of them. (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question that the Bill be read a second time. Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time.

THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On Monday, 6th

FRIDAY, 3RD JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I would like to inform the House that we are far behind in our work so I shall ask the members to cease these interjections which are unsuitable and which waste time.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to advise that the members of the select committee on Motion No. 8 should please meet in the Chief Minister's office at 2 p.m. sharp this afternoon to consider the draft report. This report cannot be submitted to this House unless it has been considered by the committee and sent to the printers. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, it grieves me, and I presume it will grieve the whole House, to learn that on Monday this week several of our kinsmen died as a result of a train accident on the Reef. Although we are not in a position to tell the House the names of the people who died as a result of this accident I feel it is our duty to send a telegram to the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development in the Republic of South Africa , expressing our sincere condolences. I hope that I am

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and Development in the Republic. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this side of the House wishes to associate itself very strongly with the sentiments of sympathy expressed by the hon. the Chief Minister in relation to this accident which occurred some time this week. This side of the House shares the concern over these accidents and feels that life is really in the midst of death, even when there is not a state of war. We wish to say how much we regret the accident. We wish to state that we have confidence in the administration of the railways and that a telegram sent to the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development should embody these expressions of confidence and our regret over the accident. Knowing that the Department of Railways and Harbours will feel the same way as we are feeling, we feel assured that those who are left without breadwinners and those who are bereaved in various ways will receive adequate compensation for their maintenance. With those few words, I second the unopposed motion of the hon. the Chief Minister. The House stood in silence as a mark of respect. TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House resolve itself into committee. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to.

in fact, I have seen that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture is very delighted at seeing me talking about this and he is obsessed with the case of the witchdoctors in Grahamstown . Now I understand

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expressing the feelings of the whole House when I say that we are really perturbed about these almost yearly accidents on the line towards Soweto in Johannesburg. We are particularly concemed because there are many Transkeian citizens that reside in that area. I move, Mr. Chairman, that a telegram expressing the sympathies of this House be sent to the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration

(Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Is this your farewell speech today?

MR . NOGCANTSI . I would like to draw his attention to this phrase, that it has nothing to do with Nogcantsi but it has to do with teachers and I understand that if he were still a teacher he would be the first to be affected by this. (Laughter) I am going to enumerate for the enlightening of small minds a few petty offences.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There are small minds that side. MR. NOGCANTSI: Well , I know where the habitat of the small minds in this House is, and I never fail to direct my eyes to that side. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This is a good farewell speech . MR. NOGCANTSI: Such petty offences are therefore more like motor offences and misunderstandings between husbands and wives and I do not think therefore that any reasonable person should allow that any teacher should be dismissed because he quarrelled with his wife, because even in the magistrate's courts you will find there is some discretion used by the magistrate. There are cases where the magistrate has to acquit a person by saying that although he has been convicted, the case is of a very light nature. In almost all such cases the magistrate acquits the victim. I understand most of us here who have been elected have been elected because they have some sympathy, and they have the ability to help the members of the electorate. I therefore plead with all the reasonable members that we have these words added to that sub-section (p). Let us be taken as reasonable human-beings.

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MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment.

House in Committee . The debate on clause 15 of the Bill was resumed. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I hereby stand to move an amendment that section 15 (p) be amended by the addition of the words "of a serious nature " after the word " offence", In requesting that this appendix be added . . . .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Appendix?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I rise to oppose the amendment. I think the insertion of these words would create an impossible situation. It would be very difficult indeed to determine the degree of seriousness of the offence . We have no yardstick to measure that, so the whole matter must be left to the discretion of the Department. On that score I am not prepared to accept the amendment.

MR. NOGCANTSI: I am sorry that one of the members of the Cabinet seems to be affected by this, because he seems to be thinking in terms of appendicitis. (Laughter) My main request is directed at this phrase, that we add that the offence should be of a serious nature. I understand that even in the

MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I doubt whether the Education Department is very serious about its employees because the hon. the Minister of Education does not seem to mind how much time is wasted on trivial matters . and teachers leaving the school to attend to small things that really do not matter at all. A teacher is called upon to attend a trivial case and meanwhile the children are

previous Govemment there has been this phrase added to modify the type of offence. At least the members of the Cabinet, or the Minister concemed with this, must not be taken or regarded as sadists , and further, we should not share in that callousness. Even the law does not pay any consideration to petty torts or petty misdemeanours. (Laughter) I understand that some of you are thinking not of "torts", but of tots of liquor. I am talking of petty cases.

suffering. He cannot retum the same day and he is called upon to come again after another two weeks and meanwhile his brains have imbibed what is con. tained in this case, so that eventually he is hardly able to teach the children in those two weeks while he is waiting for his trivial case. Sometimes it is just that during the weekend or on a Sunday he had to have one glass too much and had a fight with a friend. That is natural. I think therefore, Mr. Chair-

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man, that a criminal offence of a serious nature is really something to regard.

legal department and I would like to stress that the law is made to protect the person.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Where do you draw the line?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Everyone has access to the law courts.

MR. LUWACA: Well, if I was the Minister of Education I would be able to draw the line. Maybe by the time you think you are charging this man criminally because he had a little squabble with his wife, the wife has already condoned the quarrel. If you think it is a private affair and the wife runs to the police station , doesn't it become a public affair? I would understand you better if you were the Minister of Justice and not a jungle man. So Mr. Chairman, I think really if the hon . the Minister of Education is going to be serious about this and remember that he was once upon a time a young man before he became an old, retired teacher, he will realise that this is going to waste a lot of time and the children will suffer.

CHIEF NDAMASE : Do you object to being shown that it is necessary to amend this section? It has been said that we should lift education above party politics. Of a truth this amendment does not go against the aim of this law. The hon. Minister is not attending and he will go on putting in other mistakes. I advise him to consult Mr. Zietsman , the legal adviser.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why did you leave off teaching before you were old?

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MR. LUWACA: He knows himself that under other educational administrations he has never been subjected to such conditions. Whilst I think his Department and the teachers are thankful for the advent of the Transkei Go vemment, does he want them to curse him because if he starts introducing things now which people are not quite used to , making such a mountain of his Education Department, the people will not think it is worth it. It is trivial really, and I always contend that when a man reaches his age he becomes more stable and reasonable, so really I was thinking that the Department under him would take things seriously. Weren't you pensioned off? If a man has been pensioned off it means he is almost finished so that now he is even starting to think about God and praying seriously. (Laughter) Since he is now coming near to his grave he should want people to bless him , but instead he is trying to make things as if he is about 40 years old. I think the reasonable Minister of Education will now be very reasonable with his employees , not only so that they can bless him but so that they will really cry for something when he dies. It seems now he is very near his grave and that is why he is so inconsistent with his policies. I therefore think that you should regard that and insert those words. That is my plea. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I merely rise to put right something that was said by the hon. the Minister of Education when he asked how the distinction will be made between serious cases and those which are not so serious. I think they send these bilis to a legal draughtsman who understands the difference between a minor case and a major criminal case. I appeal to the hon. the Minister of Justice who knows that criminal cases are of different degrees of seriousness. If he has not been informed about this I will advise him to read Pitman's book where he will find . cases of different seriousness. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I said it should be left to the discretion of the Department. CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Minister of Education says it should be left to the discretion of the Department. The law is made to protect the man who is guilty as against the discretion of other people. I would reply that your Department is not a

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall now proceed to vote on this clause, MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I have a comment to make apart from the amendments which have been moved. I have read section 15 (1) with section 16 (6), Sir, and under ( 1) it is suggested that if a teacher becomes pecuniarily embarrassed he will be regarded to have breached the stipulation of good conduct. Now when we read ( 1) in conjunction with 16 (6), we find that an act of the Department may well place the teacher in a position where he may be charged with misconduct under 15 (1). Thus he Department, acting in terms of section 16 (6), may withhold emoluments from a teacher resulting in pecuniary embarrassment to the teacher and he falls foul of the provision under 15 ( 1). There is a condition attached to (1) that unless it can be shown that it is not due to an omission on his part, but it may well be argued that he has been suspended because of his act and therefore becomes guilty under section 15 (1). I would request therefore that the hon. Minister should speak to ( 1) and bear in mind the provision under 16 (6) so that the two be correlated.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chariman and hon. members, in the first place the question of withholding emoluments is quite a common practice in government services, but provision is made that the Minister may give permission that he be paid, otherwise I do not see how we can get over this. MR. GUZANA: My point is that, by reason of his emoluments being withheld, the teacher may become pecuniarily embarrassed, thus breaching the provision of 15 ( 1) and may well be said to have misconducted himself. If the teacher argues that it is no fault of his own it may be equally argued by the Department that there would not have been a suspension of his emoluments but for his breach of one of the regulations. It is just that I want a motivation on the relation of the two provisions. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If the teacher feels that he becomes pecuniarily embarrassed , all that he has to do is to apply for payment of his salary under 16 (6). MR. GUZANA: But section 16 (6) does not give the teacher the power to apply. It is the Minister who may order. It is just that I wish to understand whether or not such pecuniary embarrassment as results from the suspension of his pay will not expose him to a charge of misconduct, so that it is not argued that he is responsible for his suspension and therefore the consequent suspension of his emoluments.

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THE MINISTER OF

EDUCATION : Well , Mr.

conducted. The accusation may be of such a serious nature that the continued presence in the school of the teacher so accused may be prejudicial to the interests of the school , consequently the powers conferred upon the Minister by this sub- section are considered essential.

Chairman , I think this is a case which obtains everywhere and does not affect only the teachers. I think in such circumstances the teacher must fall back on his own resources. MR. GUZANA: His resources are with the Government. Sir, may I just explain? My point is the teacher becomes pecuniarily embarrassed because his emoluments have been withheld. Now will he be open to a charge of misconduct while he is under suspension and he becomes pecuniarily embarrassed because there has been a suspension of his emoluments? If you say "No" I will be quite satisfied.

MR. GUZANA. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move the amendment to sub-section ( 4) which appears under my name, that the words after the figure 15 be deleted. There can be a misuse of the powers contained in that portion of the sub- section; there may be an allegation against a teacher and such allegation may be of a very serious nature , and the allegation may have no foundation at all , but be cause of this provision the teacher may well have been suspended. How often has the hon . the Minister of Education had cases brought to him, apparently serious, only to find out later that there is no substance in the allegation at all. Not only has there been loss of man power in that the teacher has been kept out of school , but because there is a dearth of teachers the pupils may well continue without a substitute teacher for a considerable time , so that

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was interested in the remark of the hon. Minister when he said a teacher should fall back on his own resources. What exactly does that imply? I am particularly interested in a female teacher. Why does the Department expect them to fall back upon their own resources? A female teacher may not have any resources at all.

the suspension of the teacher causes hardship on the pupils who ought to be taught by that teacher. If the allegation is of a serious nature against the teacher then suspension and charge should be simultaneous, but why suspend the teacher when you have no case, or when you are still investigating the case? We lose the services of the teacher; the pupils are without their teacher for a considerable time, and probably at the end of it all there is no charge which can be substantiated. You see , the use of the power of suspension may be of such a nature that it disrupts the smooth running of the school and the efficiency of the teachers in the school. As I have said, if there is a serious charge then the teacher can be charged immediately and simultaneously be suspended. If the charge is a minor one then there is nothing for the teacher to be removed from the classroom for until the De partment has the facts on which it will base that minor charge. His presence in the school is not inimical to the discipline of the school. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Has the hon. Minister anything to say? THE MINISTER Chairman.

OF

EDUCATION :

No,

Mr.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Let us pass on to the voting on these amendments.

The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu to clause 15 (g) was lost by 40 votes to 51 . The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu to clause 15 (j ) was lost by 40 votes to 51. The amendment by the hon. Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi to clause 15 (k) was lost by 40 votes to 51. The amendment by the hon. Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi to clause 15 (p) was lost by 40 votes to 52. Clause 15 of the Bill put and agreed to by 52 votes to 36.

On Clause 16. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I shall just motivate section 16 ( 1). If the misconduct amounts to an offence of which the official has been convicted by a court of law, it shall not be necessary to charge him under this section but he shall be deemed conclusively to be guilty of that misconduct unless the conviction has been set aside by a superior court or he has been granted a free pardon. MR. GUZANA: How do you motivate sub- section (1) by reading sub-section (9)? What is the idea? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is quite right. The motivation of this is given is sub- section (9). MR. GUZANA: You are quoting one part of the Bill to justify another part of the Bill. Where is the motivation in that? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : May I motivate sub-section 16 (4)? Before a charge of misconduct is laid, investigations which may be lengthy have to be

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the period of suspension may be so long as to disrupt the work of the school . I think the Department would take steps to see that the inquiry is held as soon as possible, otherwise the retention of the teacher in the classroom may also pollute the atmosphere in the community. MR. GUZANA: Can you give an example of a case where the presence of a teacher in the school will pollute the discipline of the school or the community? THE other day way and with the

MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I cited the the case of a woman teacher in the family the community is very much dissatisfied presence of that teacher in the school.

MR. GUZANA: Now that is a case of pregnancy which is established by medical examination and therefore suspension is automatic and a charge is laid simultaneously with suspension. That case is solved, but my fear is that the teacher is suspended, there is a possible charge , but ultimately no charge is preferred against the teacher. The teacher has to -281-

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be paid over the period of the suspension and there has been a break in the continuation of the teaching of the pupils who are under this teacher. It strikes me as a waste of money and a breach of efficiency in the teaching of the pupils. I say a case of a proven offence is immediately accompanied by the charge at the time of suspension , but where for instance a teacher is said to be guilty of misappropriation of funds, something not directly affecting his teaching ability in the classroom and something which may require a long period of investigation , it may well be after that investigation that nothing substantial is found to support a charge against that teacher, and the Department, having suspended him, has to pay him, for not doing any work. The possible charge of misappropriation of funds too does not in any way affect the discipline of the school nor the peace of the community .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think subsection (5) gives power for the cancellation of this suspension. It says the Minister " may at any time cancel the suspension, but the cancellation of the suspension shall not affect any proceedings in connection with the accusation of misconduct. " MR. GUZANA: Yes, I concede that you have that power under sub-section (5), but you see, suspension is almost synonymous with the withholding of emoluments. Now why use the power of suspension an a person who may possibly be charged or possibly may not be charged? You then place the teacher in a position where his emoluments are stopped and he is not paid for a considerable time, subsequent to which period of suspension the Govemment still has to pay him. Does it not make a fool of the Minister for his Department to suspend a teacher and then, in two or three days' time, to cancel the suspension?

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at ca Suspend DOC h c ert

I think the impression will be created in the teacher that the Government did not know what it was about. I think the provision under sub-section (5) seeks to meet a situation where a teacher has been charged and simultaneously suspended, the charge being of a serious nature , and that subsequently during the course of the investigations it is found that the case is a minor one and the Department feels that this teacher must get back to the classroom and be paid for work done. In that event the Department uses the powers under sub-section (5). In other words, the teacher merely faces a minor charge but he is in the classroom doing active teaching.

having been here since this House came into being I have never seen a pump at work as it has been this morning 1 pumping the hon. Minister to try and get him to explain. (Laughter) I was wondering whether there had been consultation when this Bill was drawn up, between the Minister and those who assist him in this Department so as to try and avoid the unpleasant pumping we have witnessed here this morning. It shows clearly that the hon . the Minister of Education has placed before us a Bill whose implications he does not understand well. While he is considering his briefs may I say in seconding this amendment that we seem to have come to a stage where the Transkei Department of Education has first of all felt it must keep the teachers on the go by transfers all the time. That is point No. 1. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Will you stick to the section we are discussing?

MR. RAJUILI: I am coming to it. Now when they have their little packets, going from one place to another, then you have this clumsy situation where you have a Department working on rumour to bring about a suspension in order to prove the rumour. There does not seem to be any justification whatsoever for this suspension, and then finding out whether the person should be charged or not. It is common cause when a complaint has been brought about and the Department has proved the justification of that complaint, then they charge the teacher concerned. Now when the Minister was trying to correlate 16 (4) and (5) and in motivating section 16 (1 ) he tried to cover himself under sub-section (9) . I would like him , when he replies, to correlate that statement which he made with section (29) on page 15. He made reference to a court of law where a teacher has been found guilty in a court of law and I would like him to correlate that with section (29). To come back to my point, suspension is affected on rumours or something else and afterwards the Minister covers himself under sub-section (5) and says it may be cancelled, but what about the reflection on the teacher and the community and school? It seems we are going to have things we have never had before , where the Department casts reflections on the teacher for something that never happened. It is very difficult to remove from my mind that we are going to have a Department of Education in the Transkei that does not seem to have confidence in itself in administering its affairs properly. You must get the facts , charge the man and suspend him, not suspend him and wonder whether you must get the facts or not. With those remarks, Mr. Chairman, I wish to second the amendment.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The section does not state that the teacher must be suspended before he is charged .

MR. GUZANA: It says "whether or not" . In other words , the Minister may arbitrarily suspend a person and that is what is worrying me. Why suspend if there is no evidence to support a charge? Even in a criminal case a man may be arrested, brought before the court and the case is remanded for further investigation and he is out on his own recognizances . It does happen sometimes that the case is withdrawn . against him because there is not sufficient evidence. Whythen introduce suspension which will be followed by the withholding of emoluments during that suspension period, when there might be nothing coming out of the possible charge of misconduct? MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been very much interested in the duel between the hon. Minister and the Leader of the Opposition on this question , and indeed in the experience of our

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think the last speaker has referred to section 16 (29). I would like to motivate that which may perhaps affect the question put by the Leader of the Opposition. In many instances the Department may find it necessary to charge teachers with misconduct which would not be punishable in a court of law. A good example of this is the following: A teacher who is the treasurer of a school fund is charged with theft but is found not guilty in a court of law. This teacher, though not guilty of theft, may however be guilty of wilful neglect of duty or disobedience in carrying out the instructions pertaining to his duties as treasurer of the fund. The Department must, in such circumstances, be empowered to take steps against such a teacher though he may not be guilty of theft.

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T

MR. GUZANA: We can see that. You can charge a man although he has been acquitted by a criminal court. Now, as you charge you should suspend - that is my submission - not that you should suspend without knowing what the evidence will be with only a possible charge coming on. Will you accept the amendment? It is reasonable and it saves the Department from an embarrassing situation which may arise. I will exemplify that. You suspend the teacher and you are unable to prefer a charge against him. Rumour has subjected him to a great deal of indignity during the period of suspension ; his fair name has been damaged; and you ultimately don't do anything but you restore the teacher to the school. Then immediately the teacher proceeds against the Department for defamation or something like that. We want to avoid a situation where you may have to use powers here which may place you in a position where you may become a defendant in a matter like that.

1

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I think the members are presupposing that the Minister of Education is an unreasonable man. I think if the members appreciate that the section is not obligatory or peremptory it will help them. It says "the Minister may suspend", not "must" suspend the man. (Interjections) He cannot do it without certain facts, and as I have already said he is a reasonable man. That is why I say you argue from the angle that the Minister is an unreasonable man. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Where will you find a reasonable man? That is a fictitious personality.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : As I have said, the Minister may have certain facts before him.

MR. RAJUILI: Would they be facts or fiction? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Who is going to start suspending a person on fiction? As I have said, you are working under a misapprehension that the Minister is an unreasonable man - that is why you talk of fiction. It is only an unreasonable man who will suspend on fiction. MR. NOGCANTSI : Do you still maintain that suspension is not punishment? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Despite what? You have not convinced me that it is punishment. The position is that the Minister is here to see to the interests of the community and if he says he has got facts, and he does not say he is not going to charge on those facts, but in order to save someone embarrassment he may find it is equitable to suspend the man even before he is charged.

The debate was adjourned.

SAC

1

1

AFTERNOON SESSION

1

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on clause 16 of the Education Bill was resumed. 52

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You keep quiet. No reasonable man is going to hear rumours and then suspend a man. He might suspend if he sees that the immediate suspension of the teacher, even if he is not charged, will be for the good of education or the community where the teacher teaches. As I have said, it might be that the question of waiting to charge him may not have a good result as far as the community is concemed.

MR. GUZANA: Why not transfer him then? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Why? It comes to the same thing. Suppose it is found that there is no substance in the charge when the man has already been transferred?

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, when we adjourned there had been a lot of observations which came in when I put my question to the hon. Minister and I would like his reply as to how he reconciles the remarks he made under section 16 (9) with section (29). Do I interpret him well when he says where a teacher has been tried and found guilty in a court of law the Department shall take that verdict as it stands, if he is found guilty? If I understand him correctly, how does he reconcile it with section (29) where it says if such a teacher has been found not guilty and acquitted they may still take steps against him. I would be happy if the hon. Minister will reply. I do not mind the hon. the Minister of Justice trying to help or add to what he has said.

MR . GUZANA: Yes, but the point is, you have made up your mind to punish him before knowing the true facts of the case.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I think what is most important is the reply to your questions, and not who replies to them, unless of course you want the person and not the reply?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, suspending him is not punishment.

MR. RAJUILI: I am interested in getting an interpretation of the law.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: It is. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What type of punishment is that? It is not punishing him to suspend his services.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, it does not matter who interprets it. If a teacher has been tried and found guilty the Department will take that into cognizance and not charge him. It may charge him and it may not charge him.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: It is punishing him.

MR. RAJUILI : The Minister did not say that.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I would understand your quarrel with this if indeed this " may" was "must", but this provision is not obligatory, and the Minister may have certain facts which are not public. MR. GUZANA: The point is whether or not such official has been charged, whether it is " must" or "may". -283-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If the Department feels that the man is guilty because of the verdict of the court of law then the Minister may act on the verdict of the court of law , but that section does not mean that an acquittal in a court of law will ipso facto mean that the teacher cannot be charged departmentally or administratively. That happens in almost all departments. I have known

guilty departmentally duties.

and

discharged

from

his

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I do not think I am satisfied, for the mere fact that the hon. the Minister of Justice did not say what has been said in the earlier reply of the hon. the Minister of Education. What he said was not what the Minister of Education said in the first instance.

H

ΕΙ

cases where a clerk, for instance, has been charged criminally and found not guilty and discharged. He was charged departmentally and he was found

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You have been told that yes . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall go on to the next amendment.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What did he say? MR. RAJUILI : When the hon. the Minister of Justice stood up he was of the opinion that he would make an attempt to answer. I will put my question again. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What did the Minister say? MR. RAJUILI : I will repeat it because he was so confused.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are confusing him. MR. RAJUILI: I will go on when this " pappegaai" has stopped howling. The Minister said that when there is a case against a teacher the Department would take that verdict of the court and I am saying if that is so why does the Minister of Justice add things that he did not say. How do you reconcile that when the same person has not been found guilty in a court of law? Do I take it that, for instance, when he has not been found guilty you are not accepting the verdict of the court of law? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: charged departmentally.

No,

he

can be

3

!

MR. RAJUILI: I am still prepared to listen to you if you would try now. I cannot understand a Department wanting to have things like this both ways . I would like to know if a Department can only take the verdict if it is in the affirmative of their charge and not take it if it is in the negative of their charge .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. Furthermore, in many instances the Department may find it necessary to charge teachers with misconduct that will not be punishable in a court of law. A good example of this is the following: The teacher, who is a treasurer of a school fund, is charged with theft but is found not guilty in a court of law. This teacher, though not guilty of theft, may however be guilty of wilful neglect of duty or disobedience in carrying out the instructions pertaining to his duties as treasurer of the fund. The Department must, in such circumstances , be empowered to take steps against such a teacher, though he may not be guilty of theft.

MR. RAJUILI : Yes , Sir, I thought I heard you well. Now would it mean that if a teacher is charged with theft and not these other subsidiary things, and if he is found guilty , the Department will take that and if he is found not guilty, the Department will not take that? That is all I want to know. THE correct.

MINISTER OF

EDUCATION :

That is

MR. RAJUILI: If that is the reply then I cannot understand why you take it one way and not the other. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : because you refuse to understand.

It is just

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MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I move the amendment to clause 16 (11) (b) - that the words "person who signed the charge " be deleted and the words "appointed to inquire into the charge" be substituted therefor. Now my submission is that the person appointed to inquire into the charge may have commitments unknown to the person who signed the charge and that he may well arrange to hold the inquiry at a time convenient to him and those who may sit with him as assessors or people to assist him. The person who signed the charge may not be one and the same person who is going to hold the inquiry and I feel that it is the man who is going to hold the inquiry who should fix the time and place for the inquiry. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think this is more or less a matter of procedure , so I have no objection to the amendment . We can make it the person who holds the inquiry . MR. GUZANA: In that case, Mr. Chairman , I will withdraw the amendment in favour of the suggestion of the hon . Minister because it is much the same in principle. Mr. Chairman , I would like to comment upon another sub-section here, if you will give me time after this, Sir. I do not know whether you would like to go through all the listed amendments before you give me that chance? There are three other maendments and I do not know whether you wish to deal with these first before I make comments and ask for motivation on another sub-section? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : All right, I will give you the chance now. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , re sub-section 16 ( 11 ) (a) (ii ), my concern here is over the official who is going to hold the inquiry. It is suggested here that he will issue a subpoena under his name and I am not aware of any provision giving him power to have a subpoena issued by him under his hand. He can summon , but the question is whether or not he has been given the authority or has been vested with the power so to summon a person by subpoena. It may well happen that the official holding the inquiry may issue a letter and it is ignored, and you may seek to have a criminal proceeding against him for failing to obey the subpoena. Then the question may well be asked: Did the man who issued the subpoena have the power to do so? Secondly, under (iii) this official is to administer an oath or affirmation. Now will the official be a commissioner of oaths, or will he first be sworn in to give him power to administer an oath? I really ask for motivation on these points and it will be seen that this sub-section also relates to section 21 (2) (a) and (b) on page 17, where the provision more or less embodies the same ideas as are contained in the sub-section on which

I request a motivation. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , the contention is that the person to hold the inquiry is appointed by the Minister and such powers are bestowed on him.

legal adviser. He assures me that the two points raised are quite in order. The type of subpoena mentioned here is not the one used in courts of law, but the effect now is to empower the one who is to hold the inquiry to call the witness who might be required to give evidence , and also to administer the oaths .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chaimman, I move that this House adjourn until Monday. MR. GUZANA : I second, Mr. Chairman . I have given the hon. Minister some homework. House Resumed .

The

Deputy

Chairman

reported

The Assembly adjoumed until 11 Monday, 6th June , 1966 .

progress .

MR.

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

What

will be the

effect of

disregard of this subpoena by the person on whom it is served? Will there be any criminal sanctions in a court of law? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes, he will be fined. It is contained in the Bill here that if he disregards the subpoena he will be fined.

MR. GUZANA: In a court of law?

a.m. on

MONDAY, 6TH JUNE, 1966.

GUZANA:

12

THE CHIEF administratively .

MINISTER :

He

can

be fined DLS

MR. GUZANA: No , he is not under the administration. The witness can be anyone. ย

Prayers were read. The minutes of Friday, 3rd June, 1966 , were taken as read and, after amendment , confirmed.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Look at sub-section 21 (3).

MR. GUZANA: I am satisfied, Mr. Chairman. TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL 00 COMMITTEE STAGE . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House resolve itself into committee. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second , Mr. Chairman .

Agreed to. House in Committee , The debate on clause 16 of the Bill was resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , last Friday when we stopped we were dealing with the amendment by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana in respect of section 16 (4). MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , are you referring me to section 16 ( 11) (b), because I think the hon. the Minister of Education conceded to an amendment of mine in respect of that section? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Yes, and you consented to withdraw that in favour of what was suggested by the hon. Minister. Had we disposed of that? MR. GUZANA : Yes , we were dealing with section 16 (11) (a) (iii) read with section 21 (2 ) (a) and (b) regarding the appointment of a person to hold the inquiry and I think the hon. the Minister of Education may have something to say in that connection this morning.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon . the Leader of the Opposition gave me some homework to do and I was very happy for that , because as a man who is not a legal man I had to go and consult my own

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall draw the attention of members to an amendment by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda, and also to an amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu with reference to 16 ( 24) (c) . You will notice that these amendments refer to the same sub-section , and the amendment by the hon. Mr. Bubu seeks to delete the section entirely , while the amendment by the hon. Mr. Mda seeks the deletion of the words "two hundred" . I therefore propose to deal with Mr. Bubu's amendment because if that amendment falls away we can then deal with Mr. Mda's amendment. MR . H.H.T.N. BUBU : Mr. Chairman , all I wish to bring to the House in connection with this amendment is that I feel very strongly that it is very foreign in the field of education . The paragraph concerned seeks to impose a fine on a teacher or a departmental official who has become guilty of one offence or another. This is especially the case with reference to teachers , We have never known before at any time that a fine is imposed on a teacher who becomes guilty of an offence . If it is intended to punish a teacher by using some part of his money, it has always been in the form of withholding an increment or, if the nature of his offence warrants it, he suffers for his offence by being demoted or de-graded, but although those both involve loss of money the institution of a fine is quite unknown to us and I have no doubt that it will shock the teachers when they find they are subject to fines when they commit offences , unless , of course, such fines are imposed in a court of law. Again, Mr. Chairman, I have the feeling that a fine imposed within the Department of Education may not be imposed quite correctly . I feel it cannot be done with justice , just because the people who are dealing with education are not men who are acquainted with matters of justice. It is not that I doubt their honesty and their honour I rely very much upon that · but I just have the feeling that this one thing - the question of a fine is outside the scope of their functions unless, of course , the Minister is making this provision to fall into -285-

line with court proceedings . Further, Mr. Chairman , I have always maintained that if this clause is included in the Bill it will tend to make teaching

take anybody .

unpopular among the people because they would know that they are subject at any time to the imposition of a fine and it will discourage people from taking up teaching as a career.

all.

MR. BUBU: That has not been suggested at

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If people shun taking up teaching as a career because of these conditions , then I may quote the Scriptures and say we shall raise teachers from the stones .

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : They must see that they don't misconduct themselves. MR. BUBU: The hon . Minister will remember that a person does not take up a career just because he is interested in it. He trains himself for that career because , also , of the attractive conditions of service attaching to that career. As I look through the Bill it has very strict provisions in respect of a teacher. There is no doubt that these are going to have the direct effect of undermining interest in this profession . I think that will be the case especially in regard to this provision . At this juncture I also want to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to what he said in his policy speech. At that time he expressed great concern over the fact that there is a great shortage of adequately qualified teachers in the Transkei . So great was the shortage , did he say, that he was compelled to advertise broadly for teachers , but he regretted to say that his appeal had not been met. A few days ago he also gave a statement here in regard to the shortage of teachers , in which statement he also let us know that he was sometimes forced to employ P.H. teachers in the secondary school. It will therefore be seen, Mr. Chairman, that there is a great shortage of teachers and there might be for a long time. It is for that reason also that I would that this clause were removed altogether. My complaint about it is mainly that it is entirely foreign in the filed of teaching. I had occasion to look through the Education Ordinance of the Cape and no-where did I find this clause, although I do imagine , Mr. Chairman , that there might be occasions on which it may be necessary to wish that a teacher could be fined in some way or another. I feel , however, that such a fine should be imposed in a court of law if the offence is of such a nature that it should be tried in a court of law. I remember that one of the cases of misconduct that are listed here is misappropriation of funds . I take it that such cases can really be taken to be theft and it would be necessary for the officers of the Department to sue the teacher legally first, and a conviction might mean a fine . Then afterwards the Department could take its own normal disciplinary action against the teacher. I would like to appeal very strongly to the hon . Minister, Mr. Chairman , to think very carefully about this matter. This is a very new Education Department in the Transkei , and as it is a Department that is going to control education throughout this Territory I am sure all the members in this House would be very sorry if the Education Department became unpopular. I move accordingly , Mr. Chairman.

MR. BUBU: That was said by a much greater man than you. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He was a teacher himself. MR. O.O. MPONDO : He was a better teacher than you. THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order ,

please.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I did not leave teaching like you. With regard to the fine , this is a provision which affects all Govemment servants , and we have never heard that people keep away from the civil service because there is a provision like this. So I think if people want to take up teaching as a vocation , a provision like that should not deter them from doing so. I think it may be a deterrent and a means of purifying the teaching profession . Lastly, I will point out that the teachers have access to courts of law. MR . GUZANA: Are you suggesting that if the Department fines a teacher the teacher can appeal to a court of law?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : however, a teacher is affected.

I mean ,

MR. GUZANA: No , I am speaking of this provision of a fine. A fine of R200 has been imposed on a teacher. Can he appeal to a court of law against that fine?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am saying that there is provision in our Bill for courts of law. MR. GUZANA: No , I want to know if he can appeal against that fine in a court of law? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I do not think there is anything here to prevent him from appealing. MR. GUZANA: I do not understand that answer. The fine is imposed on the teacher by the Department. I want to know specifically if the hon . Minister is suggesting that where a teacher is not satisfied , or feels the fine is excessive , he is entitled to go to a court of law on appeal. That sounds to me very, very strange . I do not want the people to get the wrong impression that they can appeal against a fine imposed by the Department.

MR. J.M. DUMALISILE: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I can explain that. I think it is clear to everybody that the punishment or decisions which are provided for in this section are administrative decisions .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to start with the question of the shortage of teachers. That is quite correct, but because the Transkei is in the limelight it would appear that this shortage of teachers is only affecting the Transkei. That is not quite correct. The shortage of teachers is prevalent right through the Republic , and because there is a shortage of teachers it does not follow that we must

MR. GUZANA: And departmental. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes . But for my hon. friend to say that this sub-section should be deleted altogether, I do not think that is objective in so -286-

far as departmental matters are concemed. One would expect that he would suggest a maximum fine for the civil servant for a provision of this nature , and that he would criticize the magnitude of the maximum fine which has been put in this section.

than it pains you . (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Suppose this subsection were not there , the Govemment would have one course open and that is to dismiss the teacher. This is one of the alternatives that can be imposed on a civil servant. You must regard the Government as being composed of reasonable men . Just in the same way as in a court of law a maximum amount

MR. BUBU: I gave my reasons for that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , well usually where the Department has found an official guilty of a charge, if they do not want to dismiss this official or be harsh with him , the Govemment usually says: Well , let us just fine him. That has been done on many occasions where the public service is concerned and I must admit that such a fine cannot be appealed against, because it is a purely administrative affair. But no Government can impose the maximum fine on a person. It is very rare, but certain cases are so serious that a discretion must be left to the Government. I do not think you can

of fine is always put in the statute book , but it is very rarely, if ever, that this maximum fine is ever imposed. (Interjections) I think you must think of the deterrent - something that is going to prevent people from committing offences rather than encouraging them. In any event if you say there must be no fine at all you are putting the teachers in a difficulty that the Government must just dismiss them . Usually when the public servants commit offences the department usually impose a small fine of about R10 or R15, and so on. That is the normal thing done. Never mind the maximum .

regard this as being cruelty or anything of that kind. In fact it is leniency compared with dismissal.

MR. GUZANA: Now do I understand that this will be used as a last resort and that the Govemment will always be inclined to use this stick with a very light hand?

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , unfortunately the hon. the Chief Minister was not in when the hon. Mr. Bubu was debating this , but he seems to be replying to the wrong question here. He went off at a tangent after starting to answer. I wish the hon. Minister would reply fully.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, I do not say that, but my submission is that the Government is the father of its servants and no father ever kills his child.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I thought the amendment by the hon. Mr. Bubu was in connection with the fine to be imposed by the Department.

MR. RAJUILI : Some fathers kill both the mother and the children . (Laughter) THE

MR. GUZANA : You are speaking to the amendment, but not to the particular question which I put.

CHIEF

MINISTER :

Those

are

extra-

ordinary persons. They are murderers just like Doubt. (Laughter) In any event I was just trying to show that you must never look at the maximum imposition which is provided by law. All you must appreciate is what the effect of the provision is going to be on the teachers and I want to assure my hon. friend that the Government consists of reasonable men men who will not abuse their powers in any way.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I spoke to that and I made it clear that in administrative matters there can be no appeal to the law courts , but I was also attracted by the remark of the hon. member which I heard when I came in. MR. RAJUILI : Would you say it is erroneous for the hon. the Minister of Education to say that the courts of law are open to the teachers? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I won't reply to that. My attention was caught by the remark made by the hon. Mr. Bubu. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Are you discussing this? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes. OPPOSITION MEMBER : But it is the tum of this side of the House.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Well, I have been allowed. The Minister of Education can only reply to questions, but I am discussing the Bill at present. I was attracted by the remark of the hon. Mr. Bubu when I came in when he said these matters would subject the Government to disrepute. I took it that that remark related to his amendment and I was trying to show him that as a matter of fact the Government is trying by all means to be very lenient to its officials . Suppose that sub-section were not there at all? MR. GUZANA : You remind me of a father beating his child and he says : This pains me more

MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman , I stand to support the amendment by the hon. Mr. Bubu. It is noticeable that even the hon. Minister himself found difficulty in explaining this Bill. I do not know exactly what happened because they should have gone through it thoroughly before bringing it before the House. We have come to that conclusion because the Secretaries are busy writing all the time to keep up with the questions asked by this side of the House.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Don't refer to the Secretaries, please, hon . member. MR. DUMALISILE : I was referring to the Minister. What worries us in this connection is that a teacher should have to pay a fine if he is guilty of an offence. No matter how small the fine may be, it sometimes happens that a person is unable to pay that fine. It happens in the courts of law and there provision is made for people who are unable to pay fines. They are given an extension and if they cannot pay at the expiration of that extension they are sent to gaol. Here it is only stated that a person will be fined a certain sum and it is not stated what will happen to him if he cannot pay that fine.

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MR BUBU : Mr. Chairman , I want to ask the hon . Minister two questions . What need has been felt by the Department for the inauguration of this type of deterrent? Secondly, would he regard it as unreasonable on the part of anybody who makes this imputation that the Govemment, through this measure, is seeking to augment its meagre funds?

GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Look at ( 26 ) (b). MR. DUMALISILE: We see danger in that, especially when it is said that it is known what will be done to that person because we on this side of the House do not know, and we would like to know. Secondly, this is something unknown in the sphere of education. There are many of us on this side of the House who have left the teaching profession without being dismissed. During our teaching careers if a teacher was guilty of an offence his salary would be withheld or he was suspended.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is to bring the Transkei teachers into line with teachers in other provinces and it affects the other races too. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall pass on to the hon. Mr. Mda's amendment .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is the difference?

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El

1

MR. L.A. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I was requested by the hon . Mr. Mda, should he be late, to move his amendment. In fact we thought that the last amendment would be accepted by the hon . Minister and that he would not be so hard. In the first place the hon . Minister seems to forget that he is walking on the ground. He seems to be flying in the air in saying that in an inquiry a person can be fined R200. The hon. Minister has never seen R200 in one heap before. If he had he would suffer from stomach trouble. This money has to be deducted from a teacher's salary while he is working. The Minister forgets that this money which will be deducted is useful to the teacher's children .

MR. GUZANA : He still got his salary . (Interjections) MR. DUMALISILE: What we want the Government to do is to delete this : section altogether because it is unknown to the teaching profession and we have been trying to get the hon. the Minister of Education for a long time to do something about this , because he was a teacher himself at one time . There are so many provisions in this Bill which are not right and no notice is taken of our amendments , or they are defeated in the voting. As far as teachers are concemed they will not understand that such laws can come from an Education Department which was responsible for the education of the teachers . I am not going to say anything about what the hon. the Minister of Education said at a meeting when I was present. Now we are in the Assembly he is kicking against all the things he said at that meeting. (Interjections) The hon. the Chief Minister keeps on saying that the Government is composed of reasonable men. That is true, but we begin to doubt that they want to take any advice from anyone.

If a person commits an offence it is something which happens unexpectedly and thenthe person is in difficulties . I am pleading with the hon . Minister not to fly too high but to come down to mother earth. If a person is fined R5 it would be better, but even that is too much because a person is not prepared to pay that fine. We cannot compare your Department with the Department of Justice, because in the Department of Justice it is known that a person may be fined.

GOVERNMENT MEMBER : We only take good advice.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is the position in all Departments .

MR. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman , we plead with the hon. Minister to delete this section and retain the old law which he is also used to . He was never fined although he used to commit a lot of offences. (Laughter) I think we should follow the old Xhosa proverb that we learn from experience. I do not know whether he wants the teachers to cali him bad because once you have allowed that they will never have faith in you. Your teachers are asking you to put this Bill right as you promised them you would . The hon. Minister says they have not seen this Bill but he has actually exercised powers under this Bill and has transferred some of the teachers to other areas. A man who has a bald head like you would not like anything smeared on his head.

MR . LUWACA : It is unknown in education that a person should be fined , I can quote an instance where a person was fined and the station commander did not investigate a case of theft and the people laid a charge against him. That inquiry took the whole day and we thought he was either going to be dismissed or fined R200 . We were shocked when we heard that he was fined R8. That inquiry lasted all day and there was enough evidence against him. Why can't this poor teacher be fined a maximum of R5? Mr. Chairman , the hon . the Minister of Education should be sympathetic to his children. If a fine is imposed it should be a small one . I would like to remind the House that a person who commits an offence at work cannot be compared with a person who steals a sheep. A person who is working is always afraid of losing his job. Even if a fine is not imposed upon him he is always aware that he might be dismissed if he commits a second offence. (Interjections)

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I ask if the teachers are now civil servants , because this Bill makes them treated as civil servants . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : To a great measure .

THE THE CHIEF MINISTER : They have been all the time. It is nothing new.

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

MR. LUWACA: I am trying to stress that a person at work is always afraid of losing his job. I thought my hon. friends over there who cannot hear well must have heard what I said . Before sitting down I will ask the hon . Minister to revise this amount.

MR. GUZANA: It is all right to say so . I want to know if they are civil servants · yes or no. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. -288-

MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman members , I second the amendment.

and hon.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : A granite wall.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the fine put down applies to all Govemment servants in all departments , and those civil servants also have families like the teachers , so this will serve as a deterrent. It does not neces-

MR. GUZANA: A granite wall with no brains at all. (Laughter) That is what a granite wall is. Let me point out , Sir, that you cannot equate the position of the teacher with that of the civil servant, and when you suggest that teachers are civil servants you are doing it to avoid the issue because, in fact, you do not regard teachers as civil servants. A teacher is in a responsible position in relation to the parents who send thei : children to him; in relation to the pupils who are under his tutelage; and one might well find a teacher placed in financial embarrassment by reason of the fines imposed upon him.

sarily follow that the maximum sum will be imposed. MR. LUWACA: Why do you emulate other departments? Why can you not have your own invention? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why do you emulate other people? MISS TWETWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to second the amendment, and I support the statement that this fine is rather high . I wish to stress the difficulty a person would have in paying R200 . I suggest that R5 would be quite sufficient. GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS :

R5 is

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is only one of the many alternatives.

MR. GUZANA: Now I asked the hon. the Chief Minister if this would be regarded as a last resort as the final altemative. I wonder if the hon. the Minister of Education can give me an assurance to that effect?

nothing.

MISS TWETWA: It is a well known fact that the teachers are not receiving sufficient salaries. The hon. the Chief Minister says they do spend money but where will the money come from if they spend their salaries? No one would have such a large amount on hand. For that reason we appeal to the hon. Minister to reduce this amount to a maximum of R5. All those who have been in the teaching profession know how difficult it is to save money and so does the hon. Minister. If he does not he should compare what he gets now with the salary he got as a teacher. (Laughter) It is perhaps due to that that he feels teachers can easily raise R200, because his stipend is so high . We hope the Minister will not forget the situation the teachers are in. Would he not reduce the maximum to R5? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Minister anything more to add? THE

MINISTER

OF

Has the hon.

AGRICULTURE :

No.

MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I must say I detest the attitude of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. The way he says : " Let them go on talking and we shall not take any notice" shows a stagnant mentality. (Laughter) I consider a man who is alive and well is subject to persuasion and does not pretend to be immoveable and immutable. Mr. Chairman, I do feel that there is need for a reduction of this amount of R200.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your amendment? Give us a reasonable amount · not R5.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is up to the person holding the inquiry. MR. GUZANA: It is really not the person who holds the inquiry, because these powers of recommendation are vested in the Secretary , not in the person who holds the inquiry, and therefore we would like to know whether or not this is going to be used as a last resort. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Secretary will act on the recommendation of the person holding the inquiry. MR . GUZANA : But the person holding the inquiry has no powers to say this is a serious offence . All he has to do is to find out whether or not the teacher is guilty of the misconduct charge and make his findings accordingly. He has no right to recommend on the type of punishment, nor has he a right to say that the offence is of a serious nature and that therefore there must be a heavy punishment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But the Secretary would have the opportunity of reading the findings ofthe person holding the inquiry. MR. GUZANA: Yes. Now my point is · you say it depends on the severity of the offence . Do I understand you to say that where the offence is severe then this provision will be invoked? THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Not

necessarily.

MR. GUZANA: Would the Government consider R100? They have claimed they are reasonable and would not R100 be reasonable?

MR. GUZANA: Or are you suggesting that where the offence is severe then the fine imposed may be higher?

maximum?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Minister will have a discretion, not the Secretary.

THE

CHIEF

MINISTER :

As

a

MR. GUZANA: Yes. To save time I will put that to the hon . Minister. Would he consider that as a maximum? The fact that the hon . Mr. Mda has placed R5 is to give the opposite extreme so that we can compromise on a middle figure . If the hon. the Minister of Education would indicate that he will consider R100 as the maximum fine I will not waste the time of the House. -289-

MR . GUZANA: You told us that the Minister acts on memoranda submitted to him. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , but he has a discretion . MR . GUZANA: That discretion is exercised

I

within the ambit of the memoranda submitted to him.

applied reasonably. MR . GUZANA: And what is reasonably? A man may think it reasonable to hit another on the head with a sharp instrument and another may think it reasonable to give him a light tap.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has an open mind. MR. GUZANA: His mind is closed within the unless it is being suggested that he memoranda, ignores the memoranda and then he has got his discretion. The discretion is exercised within the ambit of the memoranda that guide him, and the Secretary may draw up a memorandum suggesting that this man be fined R150.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And what do you regard as reasonable? MR. GUZANA: In other words , would you say it is reasonable not to fine the man at all? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Not necessarily. The Minister may tell the Secretary the fine is too high. MR. GUZANA: He may say that but he has to act within the recommendation.

MR. GUZANA: If he is found guilty of dereliction of duty would you say that is serious enough for you to invoke the provisions of this section?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He can say the fine is excessive.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you defending a client already?

MR. GUZANA: Just as he can say that it is too light .

MR. GUZANA : I am always defending my clients because I have been elected to come here and I have been given a mandate to protect them . I asked the hon . the Minister of Education a question as to whether he would regard dereliction of duty as a serious enough offence to impose a fine.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes.

MR. GUZANA: So he can ignore the memoranda and can act on his own discretion. That is what we are talking about and we want to know where this discretion ends , which is why we ask that it be resorted to as a last resort when all other forms of punishment have been tried.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why do you ask that? MR. GUZANA : He has to be a red herring. Let the hon . Minister reply. We want to tell the people what the Minister's reply is and that when the Minister replied to our question he said this or that.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You want the Minister to decide the cases now.

EX

MR. GUZANA: There can be no judgement where there is no case. We want him to act within this provision.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has the evidence.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It would depend on the circumstances. MR. GUZANA: I have tried so hard to kill this snake but, as you know, the snake wriggles when it runs over the ground and every time I hit, it is just at the bend. (Laughter) I think the hon. Minister realises that we are seeking as much as possible that this section will not be invoked irresponsibly...

MR. GUZANA: He does not have the evidence. The evidence is taken by the man who holds the inquiry.

H

&

THE CHIEF MINISTER : He will read the evidence.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , it will not. MR. GUZANA: ....and that the teachers will not feel that there is a danger in remaining in the teaching profession.

MR. GUZANA: He will not see the witnesses and he will not see the teacher. In other words he has no knowledge of the de meanour of the witnesses and so we seek to leam from the hon.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We will now take the next amendment .

Minister what is his attitude as relating to an imposition of a fine under this head. Since he refuses all amendments, can we get the assurance that this form of punishment will be the last resort before dismissal? THE

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I have no cause for dissatisfaction with the second part of that amendment - that is, where the reduction of grade is concerned, but it is in connection with the first part , the reduction of emoluments, that I am not satisfied. My amendment is to the effect that sub-section 16 (24) (c) (v) should be deleted and the following substituted therefor: " That the increments of such official be withheld." I cannot see why the emoluments should be reduced. The emoluments are based in the first place on a man's qualifications and where would be the justice of reducing such emoluments? He is given those particular emoluments because of his particular qualifications. On the other hand, if his grade is reduced because he is found to be irresponsible and if his emoluments are affected as a result of re-grading, there would be no complaints . It is for

CHIEF MINISTER: It will be applied

reasonably. MR.

GUZANA: I concede that the hon. the

Chief Minister is really your gadfly but I still want the answer from the hon. the Minister of Education or shall we call him a red herring? I would like the hon . the Minister of Education to give us an assurance. I hope that when I am on the preaching plan and have to deliver a sermon the Chief Minister is in the congregation and I shall preach over his head. (Laughter) Can we have this assurance? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It will be -290-

that reason that I move this amendment, Mr. Chairman. It is the same thing more or less , except that the reduction of emoluments cannot be justified

if the hon. member will be patient a little . I follow his point and it is quite reasonable, but I do not know what is in the mind of the draughtsman , so I would rather consult my Secretary.

on any grounds. If you withhold an increment, such action does not affect the official directly because you withhold a sum of money which he still expects to get, but if this affects his emoluments in so far as those imply his basic salary then you become greatly unfair to him. I feel therefore, Mr. Chairman, that the amendment that the increment of such official be withheld is the proper thing. If that is what is intended here I am prepared to withdraw my amendment. I should like the hon . Minister to explain, please, Mr. Chairman .

C

MR. GUZANA: I am quite agreeable to that, Mr. Chairman. I move that we adjourn . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : ments?

Any more com-

I

MR . GUZANA: It is difficult for us to go on commenting on this section, because I raised a point and the hon. the Minister of Education is going to make inquiries into it. We cannot go further at the moment.

MR. GUZANA: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman .

11

The debate was adjourned . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, that is exactly what we mean . A man may be a very good principal and you do not wish to de-grade him, but you do feel that he should be punished somehow and perhaps for a few months you reduce his salary. We do not stipulate the sum by which it will be reduced . It may be even less than the emoluments he is getting, so I think we meet you in that case.

AFTERNOON SESSION .

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on clause 16 of the Education Bill was resumed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, when we adjourned I had promised to consult the legal draughtsman with regard to sub-section (v), that the emoluments or grade or both the emoluments and grade of such official be reduced. One wondered whether there was any need to include the words "or both emoluments and grade". His view is yes, there is every need. It has happened everywhere with every government. It enables the Minister, in case he requires to take extreme measures, to do so but it scarcely ever happens.

MR. BUBU: Now what would be the difference between that and a fine?

MR. GUZANA: The effect would be the same, except that in this particular case there might not even be a trial . It is just reported to the Department and this punishment is imposed. Following Mr. Bubu's question , one gets the impression that the withholding of emoluments has the same effect as de-grading especially in relation to the actual salary received, save that where emoluments are reduced the man still retains his grade but he is not paid the salary that attaches to that grade. Is that the correct interpretation?

MR. GUZANA: I think the point was that where the man is de-graded , does he not automatically have his emoluments reduced to that grade to which he is lowered?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not grasping your question at all .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes. MR. GUZANA: So that to provide for de- grading and reduction of emoluments again seems to be somewhat of a repetition. That was the point.

MR. GUZANA: I say where you have emoluments reduced and say another man is de-graded. From the salary point of view they both suffer probably to the same extent, because a de-grading is automatically accompanied by a reduction in salary; but the better of the two alternatives is the reduction of emoluments so that in the near future the man gets back to his emoluments which he was receiving. Now I take it that that is the spirit behind this? THE MINISTER right.

OF

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , you may reduce the emoluments to the grade to which he has been brought down, but at times that is not sufficient. You must furthermore reduce the emoluments. That is in very severe cases , but it scarcely ever happens. MR .

EDUCATION : That is

GUZANA:

Thank

you ,

Mr.

Chairman .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon . members, we have now dealt with all the amendments to this section and we have to put them to the vote.

MR . GUZANA: Well, why go on to say you will have the emoluments and grade of the particular teacher reduced? One would have thought the provision would be that the emoluments or grade of such official be reduced, because by de-grading him you also reduce his salary, so that an all- embracing wording, without tautology, would exclude the words after " grade" in the first line , up to the word "grade" in the second line , and the sub-section would be that the emoluments or grade of such official be reduced. There is nothing lost in the intention if that is done.

The amendment to section 16 (4) by Mr. K.M.N. Guzana was lost by 27 votes to 42. The amendment to section 16 ( 24) (c ) (iii) by Mr. C.S. Mda was lost by 28 votes to 46 . The amendment to section 16 (24) (c) (iii ) by Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 28 votes to 47. The amendment to section 16 (24) (c) (v) by Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 29 votes to 49.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I wonder -291-

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3

Clause 16 as amended put and agreed to by 49 votes to 29.

as a teacher during the day. All teachers employed by the Education Department cannot spare the time to teach at a night- school . Somebody employed by a local firm has been trained as a teacher and offers

On Clause 17 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the provisions of section 17 (1) clearly indicate that anonymous allegations of inefficiency cannot be acted upon. The inquiry contemplated in this sub-section will normally be instituted as a result of inefficiency which has been brought to light in inspection reports . This eliminates the necessity for a charge of actual misconduct being brought against an official.

his services for the night- school . He is then employed by the Department for the night- school work. He then becomes a departmental official. How does he fit into this provision of sub-section (2), because he will continue to earn his wages during the day but will also be eaming a salary from the Education Department when he teaches in the evening at the night- school? That is the point I would like explained, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a part-time

Sub-section (3) merely provides for the procedure in inquiries into misconduct to be followed.

job. MR. GUZANA: All right , but is he not a departmental official? That is the definition .

MR. GUZANA: Now, in such an inquiry , which is really informal , is it necessary even to provide that the Secretary can recommend the discharge of the man from his duties? It says "provided that in terms of the said sub-section (24) , as so applied, the Secretary shall only have the power to recommend that the official in question be discharged from the service of the Department..." Yet the provisions here seek to expedite an inquiry without really all the formalities which attach to an inquiry into misconduct. My contention is that the vesting of the power in the Secretary even to recommend a discharge, when I think the inquiry is really of a minor nature , seems to be a bit hard.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, I think the definition here refers to a man whose whole time is devoted to the work of the Department. I do not think a garage employee who takes up teaching in the evening becomes a departmental official on the score that he has taken up that job in the evening . MR. GUZANA: It is still a school run by the Department and he is doing a job at night, just as one during the day. He has to prepare his pupils for examinations, just as the other one does . Now I want to know if you are going to invoke this section in a case like that.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the discretion is left to the Secretary as to whether the charge is of a minor nature.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No. MR . GUZANA : I am worried about his recommendation for the ultimate punishment discharge.

MR. BUBU : In the light of the motivation given by the hon. Minister, I consider it is proper for me to withdraw the amendment , Mr. Chairman .

Clause 17 put and agreed to . On Clause 18 MR. H.H.T.N. whether the hon. section (2) as it factory motivation in my name.

Agreed to. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I wonder Minister will not motivate subis possible that after a satisI might withdraw the amendment

Clause 18 put and agreed to.

Clauses 19 and 20 put and agreed to. On Clause 21

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , we are likely to have evening classes and the services of the day-school teachers may be required at those classes, but before doing so they should first of all get the permission of the Minister because their day-school work may be a fulltime job. Because they are attracted by the remuneration they might want to take extra work to the detriment of their day-school work. MR. GUZANA: Let us put it the other way round. A man is working at a garage and he has trained as teacher. He is employed by the Department as a night-school teacher on a part-time basis. Will the Department require him to pay his wages into the Transkei Revenue Fund?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Even with the teachers they are not precluded from teaching at the night-schools, but there the day-school work must be taken into consideration in allotting duties for the night-school. MR. GUZANA: Yes, but I am taking a case where a man is not employed by the Department -292-

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, my amendment in connection with this section seeks a very simple thing. I consider that the amendment as it stands is quite acceptable because it falls into line with the sub- section concerned. All I seek to do is just to add a proviso which is intended to give satisfaction to all concerned . Mr. Chairman , on looking closely at my amendment there is one word which I snould like to strike out and that is the adjective " irrefutable " , so the amendment will read as follows: "that section 21 ( 1) (c) be amended by the addition after the word ' Act' of the words ' provided that the Secretary can and does produce proof that such head or person indeed does have at his disposal the information sought for'." This is quite straightforward , Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that it is not contradictory to the rest of the paragraph . The paragraph states that the Secretary has a right to obtain any information from the head of a school , for instance , or any other per on connected with a school which he believes that principal or person has at his disposal , and that such head or person has no right to withhold such information. I consider that it is proper for this provision to have been made, but at the same

time I also feel that for the protection of the head or person it is proper to have this proviso so that when information is sought from him because it is believed that he possesses that information , proof should therefore be placed before him that he has the information . I consider we should have this proviso because sometimes gossip does go round that such-and- such a head or person has such-andsuch information at his disposal and it happens sometimes that the Department may want to get that information . If the head or other official does not give the information , it is not difficult to imagine that action might be taken against him for not giving that information . Seeing that the story that the head or other official has information may be based on gossip, and seeing that it might be unfair to take such action when the head or officials does not in reality have the information at his disposal, I think there should be this proviso to make it incumbent upon the Secretary to prove that the head or other official has the information at his disposal. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: How can he prove? MR. BUBU: The hon . the Minister of Agriculture wants to know how he can prove it. That is just why I say there should be that proviso, because the Secretary should be able to prove , if he is really in earnest, that this man has the information . The inclusion of that proviso will tend to make the departmental officials look very closely into the information that reaches them. This does not mean that I do not place any reliance on departmental officials . I may state that they are normally reliable people but we must at the same time consider that there might be abnormal ones who are too keen to find fault and to take action against people. This proviso therefore seeks to afford protection to the officials from whom information is sought. I consider this is an amendment which is not in any way contentious. It is quite straightforward and I think that the hon . the Minister of Education will excite curiosity in this House if he does not accept our amendment. He seems to have made a prior decision that he will not accept any amendments , but perhaps he will be gracious enough to accept this one.

MR.

L.T. MAZWI :

I second, Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think if I were to accede to this amendment it would create an impossible position because the purpose of an inquiry is to establish a true position, and how can the Secretary produce proof that this person has the information?

Department does not act on things where there is no proof. MR. BUBU: If that is so, Mr. Chairman , then I think you should accept this quite readily , because it does not militate against your idea. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as we read this Bill we find that all that is embodied in the Bill is not to protect the employees or the officials in the Department, but only to protect the Government. We are accustomed to the idea that the law is to protect the employee, but in all this Education Bill.... (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Are you speaking to this amendment? MR. MAZWI : Yes . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think you must stick to it. Do not refer to other things. MR MAZWI : The law is not protected in this Bill. Why is it that in this same section that we are dealing with the Government should call upon everybody to give evidence if the Govemment knows all about the evidence? Your aim is that any teacher, as long as he is employed by the Government, should be called upon to give evidence and he may just say anything, even things he does not know about because the provision says that the Secretary has the right to call any principal or other official to give evidence. How does the Secretary know that that person has the information? If the principal says he has not got the information do you know what you are going to say? You will say he is not telling the truth and you will thereby put that person in a difficulty by saying he is disobedient and does not obey the Department. He might have some knowledge about a thing and does not want to give it publicly. Is he going to be forced to give evidence? Is he going to be forced even if he does not want to give evidence? How are you going to differentiate then from the person who denies that he has any knowledge whatsoever? One could be a teacher at the same school with another man and he might have things to do on his own in connection with the school . He occupies a different classroom and I am in the other classroom. You will then call upon me to give evidence because I am teaching at the same school , or perhaps you will call me because you think this teacher is my friend. When I get there I will say I know nothing about the matter. If I say I do not know anything, and the person investigating says I am telling lies because I am working on the same premises , perhaps the teacher who is also at that school is a friend of

MR. GUZANA: It is really proof in such a way where an affidavit has been submitted by a resident that certain things are happening and that So-and- so knows about it , or that a letter is written to you that there is such a thing happening at the school and when you want to find out about it you say: We have received this letter.

mine. Why is it that you are seeking that people who are working together should not stick together and the one will be an informer against the other? We ask the hon. the Minister of Education to include this sentence so that when this Bill comes to be law there should be some proof of evidence. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is that?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is the sort of thing we act upon. MR. GUZANA: Yes, that's right. It is just so that you can be sure that there is reasonable ground for you to know where to obtain this information.

had

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I thought I covered that in a former section, that the -293-

MR. MAZWI : He might have the information but if he is against me he can come and give evidence against me although he is not a member of the school. One might hear something from a child attending the school and he does not know anything about what is happening at the school. He will then write to the Minister or the Secretary . If you know that I have some information , why do you refuse

E

to put in this provision? That is why we put these words in the proviso. It is not against the section. We want the people who write to the Secretary to be known. If I come with anything to the Education Department it must be clear that I am the person who brought that and I must also have proof about that information. It can happen that a certain teacher had a quarrel in his social life and perhaps someone hit him. It was just a tiny thing that he had done wrong, but it is reported. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think we would be better off if we look at some of these things objectively. I think we would be better of if we would read some

32 20

档

of these sections intelligently. This sub-section does not say anything about a person required to give evidence. If that person comes before that tribunal and says he has no information , that is the end of it. The section reads that the Secretary may " require the head of, or any other person employed at, any school to furnish him with such information at the disposal of such head or persons as in his opinion may be necessary for the exercise or performance by the Department of its powers, authorities , functions and duties under this Act." Let us say, for instance , there is an inquiry into some matter at a particular school and the Secretary feels that the head of that school might have information at his disposal which might assist in the due performance of that inquiry . He calls that person to an inquiry. Now what is there to force that particular individual to say he has information when he has no information? He is free to come to that inquiry and say he has no information and as far as this sub-section goes the matter ends there. MR. BUBU: It may not end there.

a man to give information at that inquiry. The man says he has no information but the Secretary brings proof that he has in fact got the information required at his disposal. What happens then? You say you want to help these people but by doing so you tie them up. That is the trouble with you .

MR. GUZANA:

You have not answered the

question. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Any more questions? MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , if I may move lower down this section, may I have an explanation in regard to the meaning of "any person", where it says that the person holding the inquiry may call as a witness any person and require him to produce any document or other article in his possession which may be relevant, etc. Does " any person" mean any person described in ( 1) (c) or any person not mentioned in that sub- section? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It may be any person . MR. GUZANA : What would you do in a case of a professional man who has come into some information in his professional capacity say a lawer?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What can be done to that man if he says he has no information? You are so frightened that you are even afraid of shadows. I do not know why it is. You make the whole thing difficult when you say that the Secretary must prove that the man has information. MR. MAZWI : Would you read that in conjunction with paragraph 16 ( 11) (a) (ii) which says if he has reason to believe that any person is able to give evidence or to produce any document or other article which will be relevant to the inquiry he may summon such person by subpoena under his hand to appear before him at the time and place specified to be interrogated or to produce that document or other article.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is correct. Now supposing that person comes before a tribunal and says he has no information to give , what is wrong with a man doing that?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He is excluded. The amendment was lost by 33 votes to 50. Clause 21 put and agreed to . On Clause 22 MR. GUZANA: Would the hon. Minister motivate this clause, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is quite clear. What do you want me to motivate? MR . GUZANA: We ask you to please give us amplifying motivation . This is not compulsory education , it is selective literacy . (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where accommodation is sufficient , education can be made compulsory. (Interjections) MR. GUZANA: Now this fellow is interfering all the time . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I do object to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition calling me a fellow.

MR. GUZANA: Look at section 21 (3). THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , but even in a criminal court a witness can say he has no information .

MR. GUZANA: And if he is believed to know something when he does not know anything, what are the consequences? Is he sent to detention and brought back to answer the questions? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Let us just take this hypothetical case and say that the man who is to hold the inquiry and the Secretary summon

MR. GUZANA : I will withdraw if he thinks that the word refers to him, otherwise I will not withdraw . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon . member withdraw? MR. GUZANA: This is putting me in a position of indignity, to withdraw in connection with a man who lives in the forest, but I will do so , Mr. Chairman. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where cir-

-294-

T

cumstances permit there is nothing to stop the Department introducing compulsory education. It is well known to everybody that our people use their boys as herdboys , but in places where rehabilitation has been accepted and cattle are kept in paddocks and the accommodation in schools permits, there is nothing to stop the Department enforcing compulsory education . Before doing so however the Department will investigate the true position of the place. We cannot enforce compulsory education generally when we know conditions in different areas are not the same. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , on that motivation, if the Department accepts compulsory education as the desired thing in the Transkei can the Department say that it will not be responsible for circumstances which militate against compulsory education? THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not the attitude of the Government. It is your own attitude.

MR. GUZANA: In effect, what I want to convey is that the Department should be in a position to introduce compulsory education in the whole of the Transkei.

MR.

GUZANA: Just

speak to this section.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: They fail to realise, however, that we have not yet reached the stage where we in the Transkei can legislate for compulsory education , which is one of their arguments when we want them to accept our services in any direction - that we are incompetent. They ask us to introduce universal compulsory education in the Transkei which has no precedent in any African group in the whole Department, but they forget again that this is only an opening or a safety valve for people who are ready to accept compulsory education.

E MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are on your feet, let me ask you a question. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I do not answer questions because a fool can ask more questions than a wise man can answer. (Laughter) I am thinking of Emigrant Tem buland, where, during meetings there, they have asked me to expedite their fencing so that they can introduce compulsory education. MR. GUZANA: This is not a vote for your Department. Speak to this Bill.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Even in your constituency? MR. GUZANA: If only you would listen ! The Department should have the funds to employ the teachers; it should have the school buildings to take the pupils and then it can look for other causes not within its control to determine whether or not it can introduce compulsory education . Under this provision it may well be that the Department will say they are unable to provide classrooms. In other words , all other conditions conducive to the introduction of compulsory education may exist except that the Department says it cannot provide the funds to pay the teachers or funds to build the schools. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And if they have got the accommodation and the teachers? MR . GUZANA: Therefore they are not in a position to say in an unrehabilitated area that they will not have compulsory education. Why does the Department say under this Act that it will introduce compulsory education? Selective literacy under this section will be the policy followed by the Department and other areas may well remain without compulsory education because the Department will just say they have not got the funds. I therefore submit that the introduction of compulsory education should be obligatory on the Department and then the Department can look at other factors which may not support compulsory education at a given time in a given area. In other words, accept the policy of compulsory education and say you will apply it where circumstances permit · not those circumstances relating to the Department, but circumstances relating to the residents and the children which may hold up the introduction of compulsory education in a given area. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the trouble with the hon. members on the other side is that they are trying to put into practice certain abstract ideologies , perhaps multi- racialism , because the White people in our midst are under compulsory education .

1

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They are also forgetting that this request must come from the people themselves so that the people will support the legislation. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : What are you talking about? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: It is the people who will know that they are able to manage their stock and that perhaps they will build accommodation. As I have often quoted the hon . Paramount Chiefof Western Pondoland, at every Cabinet meeting he asks for a levy on his people for school accommodation, and also Emigrant Tembuland, so the initiative must come from the people themselves because it is not as simple as you say. When we make a law there are people who are going to break the law, like members on the other side , and you must build some more gaols to accommodate the people who are going to break our laws (Laughter) because if a child does not go to school at a certain age the parents must be punished, and it must be ninety days' detention. But now, why do you say we must impose something on the people? MR. GUZANA: We have not said that. We said let the Department accept the principle of compulsory education and it will only enforce it if it knows that all the conditions in the area are favourable and when the people, as conditions improve, ask the Department to introduce it. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not dealing with principles here. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What is to stop the people asking for compulsory education to be introduced in their area under this? MR. GUZANA: The hon . the Minister of Education has said here that all circumstances will be taken into account and the same circumstances include the inability of the Department of Education to provide funds to employ teachers and to build schools , and we say that should not be the criterion

-295-

4

MR. GUZANA: I shall ask the hon. the Minister

or a disqualifying factor. The Department of Education must accept it as a principle and the people , as they are ready, will ask for it.

of Education to reply to my question , please. The hon. the Minister of Agriculture has made his position difficult, but I wish he would answer.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not dealing with principles .

GOVERNMENT MEMBER: It has been answered.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I do wish the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would speak in those terms in regard to rehabilitation of the land, which is even more important.

MR. GUZANA: Now you see, you need compulsory education for people like the hon. the Chief Minister. (Laughter) My request is : Will you not accept the principle of compulsory education? (Interjections) That in effect will imply that the Department will have sufficient money to put up all the schools that are required in the Transkei to take the children ; that it will have the money to employ the teachers and then as areas request that compulsory education be introduced it will not be the Department which will say they have not the funds and they cannot assist. We concede that in some areas of the Transkei the circumstances relating to the residents are such that will militate against compulsory education being introduced immediately .

MR. GUZANA: What have we been saying all the time? We have said you must have the money ready and when the people are ready they will ask for rehabilitation . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We shall use some of your money for the people who are ready to accept rehabilitation . We are just making provision here that if people do ask for compulsory education they will have it. L

MR.

GUZANA:

THE MINISTER OF they need not ask for it.

It does not say that here.

AGRICULTURE :

Then

2

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The Goverment cannot bind itself to certain circumstances which you will take merely to impede the progress of education. Why do you make all these imaginary barriers?

MR. GUZANA: But the Department should be like the father and say: I have got everything ready for you when you want it. All you need do is to come to me.

MR. GUZANA: These are not barriers. I am pushing the gates wide open.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : compel those who do not want it?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: How many schools are full now?

MR. GUZANA: Under the present system if you do not accept the principle you may find an area coming and asking for the introduction of compulsory education and the Department may turn round and say: We have not got the funds to pay the teachers ; we have not got the funds to put up the buildings; and we have not the money to provide teaching aids . That is my question , Sir, and I wish you would give me what is in your mind in relation to that principle.

MR. GUZANA: All the schools are full now and children have to be turned away . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just go to Westem Pondoland and see what is happening there.

And

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in terms of the Authorities Act any area can make its own bye-laws. Ifthe Fingo region decide that they should have compulsory education then they can approach the Department to have the necessary amenities for that. Without an act of Parliament the Fingo region could decide that all the children should be compelled to go to school , but we find it difficult as a Government to legislate for people who are not ready to co-operate in so far as that law is concemed. In making legislation any Government has got to carry out the wishes of the electorate.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: And the Department is going to help Western Pondoland. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We cannot compel people as you want us to, just as we do not compel people to rehabilitate their land. MR. GUZANA: We just want you to accept the principle of compulsory education. Can you understand English?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well, I used to teach it. (Interjections)

MR. GUZANA: It is nice to hear that from you .

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN:: CHAIRMAN

Order,

please.

MR . GUZANA: Now the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland is annoyed with you. He says you must sit down. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: So, Mr. Chairman, we just open the door for people to take this bread of life which is education , and we do not anticipate any difficulty within the next decade or so because we shall use the money those people are not using to help the people of Westem Pondoland and Emigrant Tembuland. The Govemment is like God. We will help those who help themselves, so I do not know what sort of Opposition this is which does not want any co-operation at all.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Govemment has had that in mind in all their legislation . Everything that this Government is doing is done to meet the wishes of the people. Now we are not going to legislate that there shall be compulsory education in the Transkei and then not carry that out. MR. GUZANA: Who said you should do that? That is the trouble - you need to go to the nightschool. THE CHIEF MINISTER: accept the principle.

-296-

You

say we must

MR . GUZANA: Yes, and the people as they are ready go to the Government and ask for it.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: When we make laws we make laws that can be applied . We cannot consider principles in legislation.

MR. GUZANA: It will apply . THE CHIEF MINISTER : This is not an association of people where you must have principles. This is a Government.

will be consulted. I do not want you to bring that amendment forward because it is ridiculous. We will not accept it.

D

MR . GUZANA: Now can you quote us that provision in the Bantu Authorities Act which vests the regional authority with power to introduce compulsory education? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No.

MR. GUZANA : We want the principle that compulsory education shall be introduced in the Transkei where the circumstances allow. THE CHIEF MINISTER : This clause provides for that.

MR. GUZANA: Because my understanding of the Bantu Authorities Act and its relationship to regional authorities is that regional authorities are merely advisory bodies on education.

C

MR. GUZANA: No , this is selective education.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: They can make byelaws in matters under their jurisdiction.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where the people request that the Govemment provide it, it will be provided.

MR. GUZANA: Not in respect of their advisory functions.

MR. GUZANA: But the hon. the Minister of Education told us that one of the circumstances which will militate against the introduction is insufficient funds, insufficient school buildings, no equipment, which will be a failure on the part of the Government so that it will not be introduced . THE CHIEF MINISTER: When the community sees that the amenities are there they will go to the Government and the Government will assist that community. For the information of the House , Westem Pondoland is the most progressive area of the Transkei in so far as education is concemed . There is ample provision in this Bill for compulsory education. It accommodates all those communities that desire that compulsory education should be applied. There is an amendment here that the people should be consulted . Naturally whatever thing is to be done by the Government , the people are always consulted. That is why the section provides that if the Minister is satisfied that sufficient and suitable school accommodation is available he may by notice in the Official Gazette declare that

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The regional authorities have educational powers. It is one of the powers they have. They must build the schools , see to the attendance of the children at school , and they can make a bye- law that in that particular region every child must go to school. MR. GUZANA: And supposing they do that and the Government says they have not the money to employ the teachers . What then? THE CHIEF MINISTER: It would be a matter between the Government and the regional authorities. MR. GUZANA: If the Goverment says it has not the money to buiod the schools? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Then the regional authorities will make an effort to provide their own accommodation . MR. GUZANA: And employ its own teachers? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They have done that in the past..

regular attendance at such kind of Government school as may be specified shall be compulsory , but we are not going to do things which are impossible. If we have not got sufficient funds to provide sufficient accommodation for the school attendance we cannot say that every child must go into a building which is not there ; but you take certain communities in the area of Nqamakwe where there are very spacious buildings , nice schools , sufficient accommodation and people desirous of having compulsory education . Why should the Minister not make provision that people in that area should be compelled to send each and every child to school? But if we provide in this Act that there shall be compulsory attendance of all children in the Transkei at Government schools it means that the Government, immediately this Parliament rises , will have to apply that law. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: we suggested.

MR. GUZANA: And these teachers will not be under the Department of Education but under the regional authorities, since the regional authority will be employing them . THE CHIEF MINISTER: That will be a matter of consultation with the Department. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , the section says that there shall be compulsory education. Now the House prescribes that the onus is on me that I compel no children to go to school and imprison no parents unless provision for buildings is there.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we do with some measure of respect feel that we have Ministers of State in front of us, but when a Minister of the Cabinet can be so irresponsible, I almost feel like saying: How silly! Now I stand up because of the unfortunate conflicting statements by the Ministers of State which have now confused the Department in which at the moment we are interested .

That is not what

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We cannot do that. We have every opportunity available to amend this Act at any time to suit the conditions . It is not necessary to provide for compulsory education for the Transkei as a whole. It is not necessary to provide that after consultation with the people it will be done. It ultimately follows that the people

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Confused you -297-

not the Department. (Laughter)

We can see that it is useless flogging a dead horse because we can see that the hon. the Chief Minister

MR. RAJUILI: The hon. the Minister of Education gave an example that where circumstances were right the rehabilitation scheme has succeeded. We do not quarrel with that. We would very much like to see that one day, where the rehabilitation scheme has succeeded. Now he says if the rehabilitation scheme has succeeded the Goverment will do all

would like to put into operation a scheme of compulsory education , but at the same time he undermines the possibility of the successful application of that scheme by evading the financial responsibilities that go with it.

it can to meet the people. We say that where the rehabilitation scheme has not but the people have succeeded in putting and they feel they want compulsory what will happen?

in an area succeeded, up schools education,

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: They will get it.

MR. RAJUILI: We feel if the Government will not just be taking chances and trying to entice the people with one thing and another to accept rehabilitation and use the Department for that type of thing, but in principle we know that in the Maluti region where the people are interested in education , whether or not they have accepted rehabilitation , if they want compulsory education they should have if. The hon. the Chief Minister says where the people ask for it they should be given and then he somersaults and finds difficulties and says people may employ their own teachers, but they may not have the money . We would like this in principle , and we would like the Government to be principled. This is an unprincipled Government. You are gambling with the people. We have seen that. We say the Education Department should not favour some of the people because of this or that. (Interjections) So we would like to know if the Government accepts the principle which the people of the Transkei want. All the people of the Transkei want their children to have education .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : has the biggest portion of the budget.

Education

MR. BUBU: He does not want to face squarely the question that has been brought to him by the Leader of the Opposition . He says he does not worry himself about principles , but here he is the head of an attempt at carrying on the government of the country on a principle of separate development which he first accepted. What I want to do now is to put a question to the hon. the Minister of Education . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Put it to me . I will reply. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Let him reply to his own questions. We are tired of your voice. MR. BUBU: You said, Sir, in the course of your motivation that the Department would have to investigate the conditions in each area where they were going to apply this. I would like to put this question to you: Precisely in what would such investigation consist? Would it, for instance , go as far as consulting the people? THE CHIEF MINISTER: That's right. He will do that. MR. BUBU: And what would be the nature of such consultation if you contemplate consultation?

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: The Act allows that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Through the regional and tribal authorities .

MR. RAJUILI: Now the aim of the people is already there. What do you want? MR. GUZANA: Is that consulting the people? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What do you want? The provision is there. Can't you read?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : authorities consult the people.

MR. RAJUILI: Now if the hon . Minister is sincere once in a while (because he is not sincere all the time)....

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I think the hon . Ministers with their interjections have replied to the questions raised by the hon . member.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people trust me. The know I am very sincere. (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI: But if the Government does not respond. Now, the people of the Transkei want it... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Which people? You cannot say that. MR. RAJUILI: Today there is no person who does not want his children to be educated .

Yes, the

regional

MR. RAJUILI : We expect a reply from the responsible Minister and not interjections from irresponsible Ministers. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have got the reply. The tribal authorities and regional authorities will consult the people through meetings and parents' associations will be consulted. Difficulties may arise.

MR. BUBU: Such as? THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about the Engcobo district? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Unrehabilitated areas. (Interjections)

MR. RAJUILI: There may be people who do not want their children to go to school and even in a rehabilitated area those circumstances will still obtain, but why should the Government be sectional in providing education? MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I think we are still busy with the Minister's motivation .

MR. BUBU : We cannot hear what the hon. the Minister of Education is saying.

MR. RAJUILI: But the rehabilitation cannot be a criterion . What about when the people have built schools and are ready? What about that? -298-

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I will have to use my own discretion .

makes application for financial assistance to enable the child to attend school and the Department either waives portion of the fees or subsidises the difference between what the parent can pay and what is required in respect of fees at that particular school. I hope this will not annoy the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, but I want to state that this is the type of thing that is done even in European education. (Laughter) You see the mention of "White" is to you like a red rag to a bull. I have from experience assisted parents who have made those applications in order to get remission on the fees , or to get the Govemment to subsidise them to the extent they are not able to pay. So each case is considered by the Department on its merits and the Department decides it will give a ten per cent subsidy or a twenty per cent subsidy or an eighty per cent subsidy on the fees for that particular school . You see, it is quite helpful to the parents contemplating sending their children to a type of school for them to know to what extent they will be committed and to what extent they will be able to meet those commitments and to what extent they should ask for financial assistance from the Government.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the hon . member still wish to put the amendment?

MR. BUBU: I will withdraw it, Mr. Chairman, because it seems to be in line with what they are planning to do. The hon . Minister says they will have to investigate the matter of compulsory education by going as far as to consult the people, so I consider that my amendment should be accepted by the Minister because it really implies the same thing. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: It is not necessary. It is covered by the Minister's reply . Withdraw it. You want to flog a dead horse. MR. BUBU: I see no reason why they should object.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What do you say about the amendment? MR.

BUBU:

Mr.

Chairman,

I

withdraw

it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think the intention of the section was to pick out certain individuals so for once I shall accept your amendment. I think it is much clearer than the wording in the section.

Agreed to. Clause 22 put and agreed to.

Clause 23 put and agreed to. Clause 24, as amended, put and agreed to. On Clause 24. The debate was adjourned. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I seek to amend the words in sub- section (2) of this section by substituting for the words "classes of persons" the words "types of schools" where those words first occur in that sub-section. I think it is wrong, Sir, to have different fees paid by different classes of persons in the same school. I know that training schools may well be more expensive than secondary schools to run and that schools for vocational training may be more expensive than high schools, secondary schools or training schools. One accepts the fact that the type of school and the type of instruction given in the various categories will determine the fees payable by parents in the various types of schools. Now take the situation as provided for under subsection (2) and apply it to a practical situation . A high school fixes the fees for Form I at R60 per year. These are the fees due by every pupil who attends such a school . Now in terms of this subsection the Minister seeks to provide that for certain classes of persons the fees at that same school may well be R40 a year and you can imagine the amount of dissatisfaction that will derive from such an arrangement where the fees are determined according to the financial resources of the parents. Yet the Department will not be debarred from helping certain classes of persons who may not be able to pay the R60 per year, being fees payable at this school for their children to attend at that school. You have that power in section 23 of this Bill. Why not subsidise the fees in respect of pupils whose parents are unable to pay the fixed amount of fees for that particular school? My amendment merely seeks to say that there may be different fees for different types of schools but still allows the Minister to exempt certain classes of people from paying either the whole or a portion of those fees. The child of a blind man will be assisted by the Government in terms of section 23. The father

House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 7th June, 1966 .

TUESDAY, 7TH JUNE, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENTS. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table the Report of the Transactions of the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund, 1964/65 under Act No. 3 of 1964.

Mr. Chairman, I beg to give notice that on Thursday, the 9th day of June, 1966, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , to provide for the extension of the periods of office of the councillors and members of the inferior administrative bodies referred to on Part VI of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, and to validate , subject to certain conditions, the submission of certain financial statements to tribal authorities by the treasurers of those bodies.

Mr. Chairman, I also want to announce that tomorrow I will be away from this House on duty elsewhere.

-299-

QUESTION 85:

QUESTIONS.

Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Justice:(1) (a) " How many Transkeian citizens have been detained under Proclamation

QUESTION 82: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education:(a) "How many children in the Transkei passed Standard VI at the end of 1965?

R.400 from January

to April 1966?

(b) of those against how charges been preferred?

(b) How many of these in (a) above continued either (i) to Junior Certificate or (ii) Industrial training?

many

have

(c) What is the maximum period of the detention under R.400? (c) How many of those passed did not go to school?

(d) Has your Department worried about children (a) who do not attend school because of lack of accommodation in secondary and high schools? (b) who do not attend school because they have no funds to proceed to post Standard VI education? (c) what steps does your Department intend to take to (i) provide enough schools to absorb all the children passing Standard VI? (ii) help the poverty stricken proceed with post Standard VI education? "

(d) Is there any support given by the Govemment to the families and dependants of those detained? (2) (a) How much compensation was given to the family of Mr. Gcuma whose health was wrecked while he was detained under R.400? (b) How long was Mr. Gcuma detained? (c) Were there any charges against Mr. Gcuma? " REPLY : ( 1) (a) 62 . (b) 3. (c) No maximum period of detention has been laid down in respect of persons detained under sub-regulation 19 ( 1 ) of the regulations published under Proclamation No. R.400 of 1960 , but the Minister concemed may at any time cause to be released any person so detained. (d) No.

REPLY:

(a) 6983. (b) (i) This (ii) This

information information

is is

not not

preferred

available. available.

(c) The Department has no data on this aspect. (d) (a) Yes, the Department is naturally concerned. (b) It is not the function of this Department to provide funds for indigent pupils. (c) (i) This is a task of some magnitude but the Department is nevertheless the investigating question of secondary education with a view to making every effort to rectify the position. It must be bome in mind that the primary limiting factor in establishing secondary schools is the lack of suitably qualified teachers . (ii) See reply under (d) (b) above.

(2) ( a) The Department is not aware of any compensation paid by any Government or authority to the family of any person by the name of Mvalelwa Gcuma. (b) From information obtained by the Department it would appear that the person referred to was detained a few years before the establishment of the Transkeian Government. I am unable to say for how long he was detained. (c) To the knowledge of the Department no charges were preferred against him but he gave evidence for the State.

QUESTION 83: QUESTION 86: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education:(a) "What steps has your Department taken to enquire into the causes of strikes in schools?

Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the honourable Minister of Interior:-

"1 How many registered taxpayers are there in the following tribal authorities :(a) Moshesh Tribal Authority , (b) Lebenya Tribal Authority, (c) Lupindo Tribal Authority, (d) Lehana Tribal Authority , (e) Zibi Tribal Tribal Authority , (f) Ludidi Tribal Authority , (g) Sibi Tribal Authority , (h) Magadla Tribal Authority, ( i) Mzongwana Community Authority, (j ) Malubalube Community Authority, (k) Nkosana Community Authority, ( 1) Any other areas or farms in the Region not covered in this question?

(b) Has the Department advised the school authorities or parents or guardians to insure school children against accident during their schooling career?"

REPLY: (a) Every individual strike is investigated by the Department in an effort to establish the cause and to take the necessary preventative measures. (b) No. -300--

"2. How many registered voters are there in the abovementioned tribal community authorities?"

them with employment and the intention is also not to train employees only for the Department.

REPLY :

QUESTION 88: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of the Interior:"Could the honourable the Minister of the Interior be able to supply this House with the number of voters up to date at the following districts :( 1) Ngqeleni , (2) Libode, (3) Port St. Johns?"

1. This portion of the question should be directed to the Minister of Finance. 2. The honourable member is referred to my replies to questions No. 75 and 77 on 1/6/66. I am unable to furnish the figures for the tribal authorities separately.

QUESTION 87: Mr. L.A. Mazwi asked the honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:(a) "How many students completed their course of study in the Tsolo School of Agriculture at the end of the year 1965?

REPLY :

The honourable member is referred to my reply to question No. 77 on 1/6/66.

QUESTION 89: (b) Of these, how many have been placed in employment?

Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Education:"Does the honourable the Minister of Education not contemplate changing the College of St. Johns in Umtata to cater for both boys and girls in order to accommodate the large community of Umtata and adjacent locations? If not, why not?

(c) At what rate of pay? (d) How long are they required to serve as semi-skilled labourers? (e) Why should they be regarded as semiskilled after completing a course involving both theory and practical work? "

REPLY: REPLY: (a) In June 1965 twenty- eight passed. (b) All those who applied (viz. 27) were placed in employment. Two have since resigned. (c) Six on the Grade III Agricultural Officer scale, viz. R450x42-660x60-900 . Sixteen as Semi-skilled labourers on the scale R234x18-252x24-324x42-692 . One as Stock Inspector on the scale R492x42-660x60-1080. Two as Student Stock Inspectors on a daily basis of 50c to 80c per day. (d) There is no stipulation that these men have to serve as semi-skilled labourers, prior to being appointed as Grade III Agricultural Officers. If a vacancy exists a man with J.C. and Agricultural Diploma is appointed straight away as a Grade III Agricultural Officer. (e) Until additional posts were created there were no opportunities for applicants to be posted as Agricultural Officers. Applicants were, therefore, offered employment as Semi-skilled labourers until such time as vacancies occured. Most of these men seized the opportunity of some form of employment, a chance to leam the work and to improve their ability; thus it became a kind of "stepping stone" to the post of Agricultural Officer. If they did not wish to accept the offer there was no compulsion , but they then had to wait for a vacancy. Since vacancies occured this opportunity was afforded to applicants who were collecting their necessary documents ; many in fact asked for this - or any other farm of employment in the meanwhile . It must be pointed out that the Department trains people in agriculture to become famers and also tobe employed as Agricultural Officers. There is no guarantee that we will provide

Not at this stage, as additional buildings would be required, if the intake of boys were not to suffer. MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon . Minister I would like to put a further question. Now that his Vote has been increased why did he not consider this matter? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I shall ask the hon. member to put his question in writing.

QUESTION 90: Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Whether his Department has taken any steps to destroy vermin including rats which reduces the mealie crop in the Transkei ? If not, why not? Could the Department consider devising ways and means of combating this scourge? "

REPLY : The destruction of vermin, such as rats, in a farmer's land is his own concem . In the same

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way the destruction of cutworm, stalk borer and other pests is his concern. It is not the Department's policy to apply insecticides and pesticides to land issued to farmers . Advice on the correct method of combating any agricultural pest is given by the Department's Extension Officers. Furthermore, farmers will be advised where and at what price they can obtain the necessary remedies.

QUESTION 91: Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of the Interior:"Is the Engcobo town zoned or not? If so (a) Have you told the people?

1

(b) How are the commonages divided? (c) If they are not , why not?"

(c) See paragraph (c) to the reply to Question No. 91.

REPLY:

QUESTION 93:

1. Engcobo Town has been zoned and particulars thereof appear in Proclamation No. R336 dated 31/12/65 as published in Republican Govemment Gazette No. 1323 (Regulation Gazette No. 602) dated 31/12/65. From the Gazette it is clear that the Market Square and erven No. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10, 11 , 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20, 21 , 22 , 23, 24 , 25 , 26, 27, 28, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83 , 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 80a, 89a, 89, 90 , 91 , 92, 93, 94, portion 1 of erf 94, 101A, 102A, 103, 104, 105 , 106 , 107 , 108, 109, 110, 111 , 112, 113, 114, 115 and 116, are EXCLUDED from the reservation for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons. 2. From the wording of the proclamation it follows that any erf not listed in the above is reserved for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons.

Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Education:"Arising from the reply of the honourable the Minister of Education to Question No. 72, is the Minister aware that this Assembly feels that the Mbanga scandal reflects an indelible blot on the Department of Education in the Transkei? "

REPLY: I am not prepared to reply to this question as it contains a biased and unfounded opinion. In this connection I would refer the hon. member to the provisions of paragraph 86 (iii) of Proclamation No. 309 of 1963.

QUESTION 94:

(a) The people have not been specifically told by me of the zoning of Engcobo town. The publication of the zoning thereof in the Gazette is considered sufficient notice to the public of such zoning. District Magistrates usually inform the people at quarterly meetings about new legislation. (b) The commonage is not divided but in terms of the Proclamation it is an area under jurisdiction of the Engcobo local authority (Engcobo Municipality) which has not specifically been excluded from reservation for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons which clearly means that the WHOLE commonage of Engcobo is reserved for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons . (c) This portion of the question is not clear. In what way does the questioner expect the commonage to be divided? There was no need

Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) How many European trading stations have been bought by African traders through the Bantu Investment Corporation and are in process of being paid for from the year 1960 to 1966 in the Transkei ? (b) Name stations and districts. (c) How many have been taken back by the Bantu Investment Corporation because of insolvency or failure to pay instalments?" REPLY

to divide the commonage as it is an entity of land, the whole of which is reserved for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons subject to the provisions of sections 6, 7, 8 , 9, and 10 of the Proclamation .

QUESTION 92: Mr. J.B. Nkosiyane asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) Has Mqanduli been zoned or not? (b) If zoned what are the boundaries that divide Black and White portions? (c) How are the commonages divided? " REPLY: (a) Yes, Mqanduli has been zoned and particulars of such zoning are promulgated in Republican Proclamation No. R336 of 31/12/65. (b) In the zoning of towns and villages there are no defined boundaries between the

Black and White portions. The Proclamation merely enumerates certain numbered erven for exclusion from reservation for occupation or ownership by Bantu persons . This means that the erven so excluded from the white portion of the village and all the other erven not so excluded form the Black portion of the village. -302-

FURNISHED BY BANTU INVESTMENT CORPORATION .

(a) 18 European-owned trading stations have been bought by Bantu with loans from the Bantu Investment Corporation from 1960 to date . Many of the European trading stations which have been bought by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development recently are expected to be taken over by Bantu in the near future .

(b) Name of Station. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18.

Hillside No. 2 Qweqwe Ntsingisi Traveller's Rest Cacadu Nqumakala Ulundi Mnceba Xameni Mlacu Draken's View Izinini Dludlu Mtshazi Zigudu Gxaku Tsepisang Rolweni

District. Matatiele Umtata Bizana Engcobo Tabankulu Tsomo Mt. Fletcher Tabankulu Mount Frere Bizana Cala Bizana

Qumbu Mount Frere Cofimvaba Mt. Fletcher Matatiele Matatiele

(c) 2 - Hillside No. 2 Traveller's Rest.

QUESTION 95: Mr. S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: -

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr. Chairman.

(a) "Who determines the dipping intervals in respect of livestock? (b) What purpose is served by bringing stock to the dipping tank when it is not going to be dipped? (c) Whether checking of stock can be made on the day it is going to be dipped? (d) If shorter intervals of checking are desirable whether the stock-owner cannot submit

Agreed to. House in Committee . The debate on clause 24 of the Bill was resumed.

figures relating to his stock without having to bring it to the dipping tank? "

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, may I crave your indulgence and the indulgence of the House on this sub- section. I am sorry the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is not here, as he was the mover of the amendment , but before leaving the House I had sounded him on this and he was agreeable. I want to move a little amendment to change the words "types of school " to "kinds of schools" in view of what we have in the last line (on page 22) of section 31 (4) and to bring it into line with that.

REPLY : (a) The Veterinary Surgeon in charge of the area concerned in compliance with the Standing Regulations promulgated under the Animal Diseases and Parasites Act (Act 13 of 1956). (b) For the inspection of stock to determine the presence of disease. (c) Stock is always checked on dipping days. (d) The checking of stock in the interior districts of the Transkei is done every 28 days during the winter and early summer months when no dipping takes place. In the coastal districts dipping is extended to 14 day intervals, during the same period as above, without any checking in between. The phrase "shorter intervals" is misleading as this Department does not envisage any change in the extended intervals as set out above . Dependence on the stock owner to submit figures and keep a proper record as prescribed under the Act will only lead to confusion and would also adversely affect the control of stock disease.

Agreed to. Clause 24, as amended, was put and agreed to. Clause 25 put and agreed to .

On Clause 26 MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, in moving my amendment to this section we are seeking to ask the hon. Minister to make provision within the administrative framework of the regional authorities for the institution of school boards. We are convinced, Mr. Chairman, that a school board is a natural line between, on the one side , the school committee and on the other the regional authority and the Department. I repeat, Mr. Chairman, we

QUESTION 96:

1.

2.

Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"How many tons of:(a) Mealie grain, (b) Mealie meal, (c) Mealie samp, (d) Vegetables (state types of vegetables), (e) Fruit (state types of fruit), (f) Milk and powdered milk, (g) Meat (state types), (h) Sugar were imported into the Transkei during the financial year 1965 to 1966? What is the Department doing to eliminate or reduce these imported food- stuffs so that the Transkei is self-supporting?"

regard it as a natural link which cannot be dispensed with and we just cannot imagine that a system of education can work well without that link having been provided for in this Bill . This is not to say that we minimise the importance of the functions that may be delegated by the Department of Education to the regional authorities but we consider that the regional authority is a body that is exercising, or as a body that should have supervisory powers over a region. As a body that is set over a region which is a very wide area its knowledge of the affairs or matters that may arise within the region may not be as minute as is desirable. The majority of the people who serve on the regional authority are heads of tribal authorities who come from all

REPLY :

1.

2.

(a) 242.185 tons of mealies were imported during the 1965/66 financial year. (b) to (h) no data is available . All activities of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry are directed towards making the Transkei independent of outside supplies af agricultural produce .

TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL STAGE.

COMMITTEE

over the region. From the nature of their positions they deal mainly with matters that are administrative and we feel that as such they may not be able to deal with the matters that concern education adequately. We do feel however that after such matters have been dealt with primarily by school boards the regional authority may be able, on the guidance given by the board, to deal with educational matters efficiently . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Would there be any objection if the regional authorities on their own elect an advisory committee amongst themselves to constitute what might be regarded as an advisory committee on school matters? MR. BUBU: In reply to the question put by the hon. the Chief Minister, if such advisory committees were organised on a district basis and the personnel on the committees would be drawn from each district,

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should sit in committee. -303-

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there might be no objection.

school boards until the advent of Bantu Education, and the hon. member I have just cited said that Bantu Education stinks in the very nostrils of the Almighty. That is why I say I wonder if he consulted him before drafting his amendment. The regional authorities have scarcely been given any time to try this . Provision has been made in the membership of the regional authorities for three intellectual...

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Amongst the members of the regional authority? MR. BUBU: If such members were to be drawn primarily from the regional authority I do not think we serve the purpose which we are seeking to serve by the institution of a board. We have this consideration, Mr. Chairman, which I may give to the House, especially in view of the questions put by the hon. the Chief Minister. A large majority of the people who serve on the regional authorities are men who sit on the regional authority because of their hereditary rights. They are not people who have been chosen specially to perform the functions that devolve on the regional authorities . By saying so, Mr. Chairman, we are not at all suggesting that they are in any way inferior in their mental make-up. They are quite efficient in discharging the duties that heredity has caused to fall upon them .

MR. BUBU : One. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well, they are all intellectuals and the chiefs are intellectuals by nature and some of the chiefs are teachers , so I oppose this amendment on that score . Let us give the regional authorities a chance to try themselves out.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think that any expressions such as that we are die-hards on this side will make us shun the responsibility for which we stand in this House. The hon. the Minister of Education wants to know whether consultation has been gone into with an hon. member before this amendment was moved and he said that hon. member said that Bantu Education stinks . I suppose he thinks it still stinks but the principle of school boards has not been described as stinking.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Besides education? MR. BUBU: Education is a special thing and it may comprise matters with which the members of the regional authority may not be conversant. We consider therefore , Mr. Chairman, that the people chosen to sit on a board are chosen especially to meet any situation which may arise in the filed of their endeavours. That is why we would like to ask the Minister to provide for this necessary link. We also consider that if a school board were provided for, as we seek to do here , the regional authority perhaps would be well advised to place representatives on such a board to enable the regional authority to get regular and almost daily information on what is being done by the board, especially bearing in mind that the school board is after all acting in an advisory capacity to the regional authority. We also consider that there are matters which may not need the immediate attention of the regional authority. Over such matters perhaps the regional authority may call upon the board to decide such matters and to communicate their decision direct to the Department, subject to a report being made to the regional authority, on such decisions. We think therefore, Mr. Chairman , that a situation would never arise in which the school board would clash with the regional authority as the machinery that we have described would dovetail with the functions of the regional authority .

THE MINISTER 1964.

OF JUSTICE : We did so in

MR. RAJUILI : I remember in 1964 that it was the personnel in the school boards that was said to be very bad and we did not resist that. At that time we still said that the institution as such was very necessary. Now here is a suggestion of three intellectuals in the regional authorities and some suggestion that the chiefs are intellectuals also. Nobody disputes that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: SInce when? MR. RAJUILI : You have geniuses amongst the chiefs. It must not be thought that because chiefs are intellectuals and there are some geniuses amongst them, that of necessity makes them educationists. I must dismiss the idea that it does . It never could be. We are very much aware, particularly of late, that our chiefs have been to school and that some of them have even been principals of schools , but the percentage is very low to try and justify it here. We must look at facts and truth. The linkage that is sought here we should understand . I will not go back to the regional authorities where people are doing very good work indeed. We want to remove the idea from misleading minds that the chiefs are only coming into being today. There have been chiefs and education was there and chiefs were consulted

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you abolish school boards in 1964? MR. BUBU: The hon. the Chief Minister asks why the school boards were abolished in 1964. I do not think his question is quite relevant , having regard to the fact that this very Bill is intended to replace the Act that was passed in 1964. I therefore move, Mr. Chairman , as I have set out to move in the amendment.

even though they do not know anything. It is not new, this thing. It is a very cumbersome thing for anybody to be pushed into a thing which he knows he does not know anything about.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member who has just sat down is a die-hard. I remember how, in 1964, he moved heaven and earth to retain the school boards. I wonder if he consulted the hon. member for Maluti , Mr. H.H. Zibi , before drafting his amendment, because in our educational system we had no

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are fighting with your back against the wall. MR. RAJUILI : Nor shall we be scared by the large numbers voting against the truth that is accepted by the people on the opposite side as they listen to our arguments. Sometimes we speak as though chiefs are no human -beings and have no children

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who must be nurtured in education in its proper concept. We therefore feel it will assist the very chiefs who serve on the regional authorities and who would themselves like to see a better educated African in the Transkei than the African of our day. That is their wish and everyone of them has that wish. I am challenging the hon . the Chief Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are the best people to look after the interests of the future of their children.

MR. RAJUILI: against that.

We

are not saying anything

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Some of your members keep consulting Ahrenstein. MR. RAJUILI: However, we feel that this linkage that we believe we should have, whereby the chiefs can easily come in and consult with the people who understand education, is very necessary. We are a young State the future of which is unknown, and the foundations of the State, particularly in matters educational, must be sound. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this is just typical of the mentality of the members on the other side who do not understand the proper conduct of the Government. They will insist on a particular Minister replying to their accusations, forgetting that the Minister is only part and parcel of a Cabinet. Just this morning the hon. the Minister of the Interior is away and nothing is lacking. We just took over his part, so I will disabuse the minds of the hon . members on the other side and they must understand from today that there is no Minister for any particular post, just as recently I was opening a show in Matatiele and on that particular day a motion dealing with my Department was moved in this House, but I have no complaint as to how it was replied to. While you are on educational matters I would like to remind the House that the chiefs and the regional authority are the people really responsible for education, and it is very improper for any member of this House , particularly a man who was educated through the moneys of this Territory - through the T.T.A. or Bunga -now to accuse the chiefs of being incapable.

MR. RAJUILI : We are not. You misunderstand the suggestion . We are bringing in the link between the authorities and the Department. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are saying they are incapable. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I would like to remind the House that they should give more chance to their institutions . (Interjections ) It was said here in this House that the school board system is foreign to our system of education and we chopped its head off. Now, like a Hydra this head is growing again, and under this amendment by the hon . Mr. Bubu it assumes its natural name again - the school board - but there is no mention of how it is going to be improved. The school board has been abolished . We cut off its head and you, Hydra-like, are trying to make it grow again. (Laughter) Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to appeal to the members to be realistic. Do you expect this House to abolish an institution two years ago and then again to sanctify it and make it rise from the grave like Christ Himself after two years only? (Laughter) For the information of the

House I might say that my experience is that the regional authorities are doing their work well. I had personal experience on the 30th of last month. I had gone to address the regional authority of Qaukeni and I found there a perfect institution where the inspectors were there to advise the regional authority in those matters pertaining to their line of work, explaining circulars from the Department of Education to the people about the distribution of grants and the part the people can play in the erection of school buildings. (Interejctions) So, Mr. Hydra-head, the question of a board to advise the regional authority is out of the question. Perhaps he does not know about these things because he has never attended a regional authority meeting. A regional authority has an executive committee of experts which meets once a month and it will be that body which will deal with educational matters, and if these chiefs stink in your · nostrils you will · OPPOSITION MEMBERS: We did not say that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And then I raised the question of at least one of the intellectuals being a member of the executive committee , particularly the member who represents education who I recommended to the hon. Minister, and I am very pleased to say that the Qaukeni Regional Authority just at that moment suspended the election of this executive committee until my member was in. And that was composed of chiefs. You say they are unreasonable. Now have you any complaint against these three intellectuals who have augmented the regional authority?

MR . BUBU : Their services will be inadequate for the purpose. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But provision is made .... . (Interjections) What I am trying to explain to the hon. Hydra-head is that educational interests are safe in the regional authority, particularly as the regional authority is not so much executive - it has got to advise the Education Department. So what are you complaining about, because if any. thing is irregular the Education Department will put it right. If the inspector is co-opted and the committees are co-opted and the regional authority is coopted, who is this man you want to put in there? Is it perhaps one of your satellites like Arhenstein , or who do you want to go and put your communistic ideas into the regional authority? If the regional authority with the chiefs and councillors are elected by you, what more do you want? But perhaps you do not know that the regional authority now is also composed of commoners like you? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think I have been able to hit the Hydra-head. (Laughter) The amendment was lost by 28 votes to 49. Clause 26 put and agreed to by 52 votes to 31. On Clause 27 MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , we ask for motivation on this clause, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the section is very clear, Mr. Chairman. We have in Pretoria an advisory board, advising the Minister of Education in the Republic. A similar situation is anticipated here, that in course of time the Education Department might require an advisory board of a

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similar nature and I hope that my hon. friend would be put on such a board.

the members to find out for themselves what this clause is about.

Clause 27 put and agreed to .

MR. BUBU: I think the hon. Minister might tell us the type of advice thay may be required. We want to understand this thoroughly . For instance, the Minister might tell us whether the council is going to advise the Minister on reasons for dismissals and

Clause 28 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned.

so on, and the nature of duties. We must not keep guessing in these matters. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not sure if the hon. member has ever had occasion to read the minutes of the advisory board in Pretoria?

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the committee stage of the Education Bill was resumed.

MR. BUBU: No. On Clause 29 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Unfortunately he sometimes makes appointments which he never fulfils. If he would keep his appointments I would show him some of these minutes. For instance, that advisory board sent out a questionaire to all the different areas of the Republic to find out whether they were in favour of the retention of school boards. They have organised school committees in the diffeT rent provinces and these school committees are responsible for things such as Eisteddfods and other musical competitions, etc. It is something in line with what you are suggesting, that the school boards might be advisory to the regional authorities, but in this case instead of being advisory to the regional authorities they will be advisory to the Department itself.

MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I would the hon. Minister would realise that we are dealing with legislation and are not school children to be told this and that. I was interested in that body and I thought he would go deeper into it. We are not sup#posed to be here to see this document and to go out without saying anything. We are supposed to be legislating and even the members on your side would like to know what this is. They have not had any opportunity to hear about it. From what you have said we can see a little ofwhat you are trying to advocate, It is vague at the moment but if you would go a little deeper into it we would be pleased, then we could see that perhaps this is something that is going to have a good future. I am sure the hon. members on the other side would understand clearly what we are. = saying, that in respect of all these things the Republican Government has sought to have a body like that of educational experts. For instance that body has been asked to go and find out from the people throughout the Republic if they are still of the same opinion on the system of Bantu Education . Now if you had gone further, that might make us see something good coming instead of just saying it should be passed without knowing what it contains . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder if the hon. Minister is prepared to expatiate on this? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to add to what I have said. The last speaker has been a teacher and we teachers only show children through a window the wealth inside the house.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, and hon. members, I would like to motivate on this clause. As it is quite impossible for the Minister to carry out in person all the powers conferred upon him by this Act, this section empowers the Minister to delegate his authority to the Secretary, but to the specific exclusion of those powers relating to section 16 (20) , appeals by teachers against decision by boards of inquiry; section 16 (22), decision on appeal; section 16 (26) (a), the power to accept or vary the recommendations of the Secretary in regard to the type of punishment to be imposed, or other matter pertaining thereto; section 22, introduction of compulsory education ; section 31, the making of regulations. All regulations must be approved by the Minister. Clause 29 put and agreed to.

Clause 30 put and agreed to. On Clause 31

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Would the hon. Minister please motivate sub-section 31 (g). THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I do not know how I can motivate on this. We know our decision about medium of instruction and we will make regulations accordingly, as well as for religious instruction. MR. BUBU: Does it mean it will be regulations to put into effect those decisions? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes. Clause 31 put and agreed to.

On Clause 32 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , this provision is a consequential adjustment of Proclamation R.334 of 1963. The passing of this Bill makes this adjustment legally necessary.

Put and agreed to. Clauses 33 and 34 put and agreed to. The whole Bill, as amended, was passed by 45 votes to 22.

OPPOSITION MEMBER : You must have been a bad teacher.

House Resumed .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I did not misbehave like you and leave teaching. I shall leave

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Transkei Education Bill has been

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passed by the committee with certain amendments .

the hotels. Now we want the Bantu people to buy those hotels.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will take place tomorrow morning or so soon thereafter as possible.

MR. G.G. KUTU: Will you give us the money? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It depends who you are. We cannot just say we will give you the money . Now the new provision makes it clear (a) that Bantu holders of hotel licences in respect of premises situated in the Transkei may sell liquor ( 1) only to Bantu persons for consumption on the premises; (2) to persons other than Bantu persons only for consumption off the premises. (Interjections) I am preparing for those people who have the money to buy hotels. If you haven't the money you had better keep quiet. (b) That hotel licence-holders other than Bantu licence-holders may in the Transkei sell liquor (1) for consumption on the premises only to the persons or class of persons to whom they would have been entitled to sell had the Liquor Laws Amendment Act of 1965 not been passed ; and ( 2) for consumption off the premises to any person or class of persons subject, of course , to any restrictions, directions and conditions which may have been imposed on such licence-holders.

TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAWS AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE 、 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I move that this House resolve itself into committee. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, section 1 contains a definition of "Bantu person". The definition is inserted to facilitate the drafting of the provision contained in clause 3 of the Bill where the expression " Bantu person" Occurs several times.

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CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, although there is no amendment put for ward I wish to debate with the hon. the Minister of Justice. I think the hon. Minister should listen to the views of the people of the Transkei . When he intro. duced a bill before the House . . ...

Put and agreed to. On Clause 2 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, sub-section 3 (b) of the Proclamation reads as follows : "The granting by the Secretary of any application for a new bottle-store or hotel licence made by a person other than a Bantu person as defined in section 72 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , shall be subject to confirmation by the Minister of Justice who may in his discretion confirm the granting of any such licence and himself impose such restriction, direction or condition or grant such privilege as in his opinion the Secretary ought to have imposed or granted." The words "as defined in section 73 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963" are deleted. That was just explanatory. Now motivation - as a result of the insertion of a definition of

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think I am correct in anticipating that the hon. member is going on to discuss the principles of the Bill, because what he has just alluded to was something which was discussed when the policy or the second reading was being discussed.

Rt

CHIEF MAJEKE : I am going to deal with this very clause we are discussing now. I want to tell hon. Minister something and I can see he is trying to run away from what I am going to tell him. This clause introduces the principle that the chiefs and members of the House should not drink on the premises.

" Bantu person " in section 1 of the Proclamation , the said phrase has become superfluous. That is the phrase "as defined in section 73 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963" . That has become superfluous.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Was that not there before? THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you are discussing the principle.

Put and agreed to. On Clause 3 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , sub- section 7 (1) of the Proclamation reads as follows: - "(1) A hotel licence shall , subject to the provisions of these regulations , authorise the sale of liquor on the licensed premises during licence hours." The provision does not stipulate to whom such liquor may be sold or where such liquor may be consumed. Clause 3 therefore substitutes a new provision for the present one so as to (1) restrict the consumption of liquor on lincesed premises to Bantu persons only; (2) make provision for the sale of liquor for consumption off the premises to any person; (3) protect the rights of licence-holders other than Bantu licence-holders to sell to persons other than Bantu persons for consumption on the premises. You see, there are already ten villages which have been zoned solely black together with

CHIEF MAJEKE: I am dealing with the clause. Why are you running away from this? This clause says we must not drink in the hotels. (Interjections)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. I am ruling you out of order. CHIEF MAJEKE : There is no Bantu who owns a hotel here.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: The time is coming. We are opening the way. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. You are making too much noise. MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. the Minister of Justice to explain to this House what he means by licensed premises" . I am asking

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$ Dre

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this question because he mentions that if Bantu people buy hotels but he did not say anything about people who might ask for licences in respect of hotels in the zoned areas.

Justice. He says there are ten villages which have been zoned wholly for the Bantu in the Transkei. A person can ask for a licence to put up a small place • where he can sell liquor •

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the same thing.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: A decent place - not a place where you sell " skokiaan ” .

MR. NOTA: What I want to know is whether the hon. the Minister of Justice can give me a licence or allow me to put up a hotel. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Yes. MR. NOTA : According to my knowledge I thought the only authority he has was to give a licence to deal in liquor in the rural areas. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In the area that has been zoned for occupation and ownership of Transkeian citizens , as soon as you buy any property it becomes your property and thereofre it falls within the Transkei. The area where the Department has no say is the area which is outside the Transkei. Now the licensed premises is that area that formed the subject ofyour application when you were applying for a liquor licence. If we grant you a licence to carry on that trade on those premises they become licensed premises . MR. NOTA: I do not know whether the hon. Minister of Justice means by that that in the area which has been zoned for the Bantu they can get licences?

and anyone who likes to MR . MNYILA: can buy Lawlor's hotel and sell liquor to the Bantu. He tells us today that if a Bantu buys liquor today from Lawlor's hotel he will take the liquor out with him and drink it where he likes , but if the hotel is bought by a Bantu, a person can go and drink that liquor in the hotel. This is the fortune which I am talking about. If a hotel is owned by a Bantu will a White man buy liquor and drink it there? Why is it that a White man can buy liquor and take it away with him? This is what I would like you to understand: Tsomo is wholly zoned black and there is a hotel there owned by Mr. Lawlor. Why should a Bantu buy liquor there and go away with the liquor? (Interjections) I do not understand, because the village is ours. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think really that what is always the difficulty with Africans is their manner of upbringing, because now with the present system that we have always got to buy liquor and walk out with it and find somewhere to drink it .....

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member asking a question or discussing the principles of the Bill?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes. MR . NOTA: I would like him to explain further that in the villages or towns there are places which are earmarked for businesses and other areas which are earmarked for residences. It might happen that I • buy a property in the residential area .

MR. LUWACA: What I am trying to show the hon. Minister is that the difficulty of upbringing is really the whole trouble. If we are not going to drink in the European bars, how long is it going to take now for Africans to have hotels so that Africans can drink in African hotels?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I did not say I would grant you a licence anywhere. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I am surprised that the hon . members across the floor who profess to know so much are so ignorant. The position is that the powers to grant licences were vested in the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei before the Transkei Government came into power. Now in so far as liquor licences are concerned those powers are now vested in the Secretary of the Department of Justice, so that if you put up a hotel in a place which is suited for that you can apply for a licence to the Department of Justice in the Transkei. There is nothing to stop the Secretary from using his discretion in so far as that is concemed. That is the position even with regard to business licences • those powers are now vested in the Secretary for the Interior. (Interjections) I am trying to show you that you are ignorant about the granting of licences in the towns. You seem to think that these licences in the villages are granted in Pretoria. You are behind times. (Interjections ) With regard to putting up a hotel anywhere I want the hon. member to understand that in a village or town nobody is entitled to just put up a shop anywhere he likes, even in a residential area. If you want a hotel, try and get a site in a business area. Residential sites are for residence and not for business.

MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, here is a fortune given to us by the Minister of

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member across the floor is thirsty now and he is thinking of going to have a drink in the pub now. The position is that when we introduce legislation we plan for the future. The hon. member from Tsomo gave an example of a hotel belonging to a certain Mr. Derek Lawlor. That hotel is at the disposal of the African people to buy it even tomornow, then you can go and sit from two o'clock to six o'clock in the pub if you like. That is the solution. Some of you are under the impression that this Bill introduces a new legislation . Nowhere else in the Transkei and the Republic have you people who like to drown yourselves in liquor ... OPPOSITION MEMBERS: They are on that side. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, that side . Have you ever gone into the pub of the White-owned Hotel? You speak as if this is introduced by this Bill. MR . H.H.T.N. BUBU : But why have you not sought to bring about improvements? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have . If you buy a hotel the whole system as obtaining today is reversed. That is an improvement · the reversal of the system. If you buy a hotel today, my hon . friend, where the African had to buy and go and drink elsewhere, it will not be the African but it will be the

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officers;

White man who will do so now. (Interjections) Do you know why? Do you want to know?

(c) the powers , duties and functions of the Superintendent and the members of the Force; and

MR . BUBU: But in making it conditional upon the acquisition of hotels by Africans you have not improved the position at all.

(d) the functions of the Transkeian Police. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I started off by saying it is no improvement for people who want to come into the pub today and drink, but for the people of the future it is an improvement. (Interjections) This House cannot legislate for areas that do not fall under the Transkei. Can't you understand that? I am maintaining the status quo with regard to those places that do not fall within the Transkei. MR . NOTA: I am only interested in the words "licence-holder" . I want to know whether Kaffir beer is also included in this. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Let me refer you to the Act passed last year where you will find the definition. The trouble is you don't read. You always want to come and ask us what you should have read. Clause 3 of the Bill put and agreed to by 49 votes to 31. Clause 4 put and agrred to .

200

6. Chapter 2 deals with discipline and provides for disciplinary measures and matters pertaining thereto. 7. Chapter 3 contains general provisions which are aimed at the protection of the interests of the Force and its members , so as to ensure that they can exercise their powers, duties and functions effectively . Clause 33 enables the Minister of Justice to make regulations in respect of various matters and clause 34 provides for the continued application of the regulations made under the present legislation until they are repealed or substituted by regalations under the new Act.

I 8. Mr. Chairman , this Bill is designed to meet the foreseeable needs of the Transkeian Police as regards its control, organization and administration and is necessary for the sound future development of the Force.

Act Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members, I now move that the Bill be read a second time.

The whole Bill passed by 49 votes to 32.

150

House Resumed

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The third reading will be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , will the hon. Minister please explain why there is no provision for a Commissioner in the Transkei Police Act.

1 ba

TRANSKEI POLICE BILL: SECOND READING

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Why do you ask that? What is the difference? Why are you called Douglas and not George?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : 1. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members , I rise to move the second reading of the Transkeian Police Bill.

CHIEF NDAMASE: I want to know why there is no Commissioner but only a Superintendent.

2. Since the establishment of the Transkeian Police Force, the control , organisation and administration of the Force have been govemed by the Police Act, 1958 (Act No. 7 of 1958) , as amended, and the regulations made thereunder; subject, of course , to the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963. Obviously the said Police Act was not designed to meet the particular needs of the Transkeian Police and it has now become necessary and desirable to make anew law for the new police force.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I would like to know what the difference is before I answer that question.

3. Although it contains various new provisions , this Bill is essentially based upon the said Police Act, 1958 , which has stood the test of time. 4. The Bill is divided into three chapters and contains 35 clauses. I shall now proceed to give a very brief outline of the provisions of the Bill.

5. Chapter 1 deals with the organization of the Transkeian Police and inter alia lays down (a) the composition of the Force; (b) the powers of the cabinet in regard to the appointment, discharge and resignation of -309-

and

A

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Liquor Laws Amendment Bill, 1966, has been passed by the House without amendment.

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CHIEF NDAMASE: There is a difference in the words. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is because we choose to call him Superintendent and not Commissioner, that is all . (Interjections) I don't have to answer as you please. I only answer as I think fit. CHIEF NDAMASE : Unfortunately the hon. Minister does not answer although we had hoped that he would answer our questions in a manner that is acceptable. The hon. Minister said in his address that this Bill is based on Act No. 7 of 1958. I thought he would say in reply to my question that they had not chosen the name " Commissioner" so as to be independent because there is a Commissioner who is head of the whole country, and I must comment on the ability of the person who drafted this because we are one with the Republic. What I do not understand is that it should fall upon the Cabinet to appoint the police force. In the Republican Govemment it is the State president who appoints the police. I think he will answer my questions because

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he has a piece of paper in his hand. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Unfortunately not. CHIEF NDAMASE: In the Republic the powers are vested not in the Cabinet but in the State President. When it is mentioned that the Cabinet will appoint the police force, we fear that they will appoint merely those who support them. We are only hoping that the Commission will act without bias although the Commission is under the Department of the Chief Minister. In section 4 of this Bill there is something omitted which is included in the Republican Act. In the Republican Govemment the Commissioner can delegate powers to any officer under his Department. In our case, however, the Superintendent is not given those powers by the people responsible for the drafting of this Bill. Could an explanation be given, please. Further, if one looks at section 7 and compares it carefully with the Republican Government Act No. 7 of 1958 , there is a provision that in time of war the force may be used under the Republican Act. In the Bill in front of us I do not see anything similar. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : When an Act is based on another it does not mean you must take that Act holus-bolus . CHIEF NDAMASE: You ought, however, to put in such things as are useful to the State. A provision should be made that the Cabinet should have power to declare war. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Did you see my manifesto? CHIEF NDAMASE : In the manifesto of your leader you stipulated that you were going to have a battalion to assist the Republican Govemment in times of need. Here, however, you are passing a Bill and you make no provision for that. You knew when you prepared your manifesto that you had no defence. All you stipulated was that you would help the Republican Govemment . I do not know whether you are waiting for the Republican Goverment to give you instructions to declare war. Where I find fault is that you stipulate that whoever is in the force will be empowered to search without a warrant, while in the Republican Act the police have to have a warrant. Will this not be dangerous in the Transkei, because an officer might misuse his powers ? (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Give the interpreter a chance . CHIEF NDAMASE: You further state in section 9 that any member in the force who might be found guilty of contravening a law may be fined up to R100. Should he be imprisoned then the sentence would be three months . I wonder if you could explain this, because in the Republic the maximum fine if R100 and the term of imprisonment is six months. If you were making a proper comparison you should have reduced the maximum fine to R50, because the Republican police force consists mainly of Europeans.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I understand you to say that the African people are poorly paid when comparing Act No. 7 with this Act. CHIEF NDAMASE : Yes , African people are poorly paid.

I do

say so. The

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do not deny that. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a few remarks in connection with some matters which I have noted in this Police Bill. I will not say much , but I want to say that the police force is a very important and essential force , and one which we wish to have with us at all times. Now a Bill is before the House referring to the police force of the Transkei. We would like to make it clear in our discussion on this Bill that we need the police force because they are essential to the Transkei. The hon. Minister has pointed out that this Bill is based largely on the Republican Govemment law referring to the police, but adjustments have been made to suit the Transkei. One thing which does not please us , however, is that the police should be able to make investigations without a warrant. The law which empowers people to make investigations without a warrant is only suitable when there is an upheaval or a disturbance of some sort or another. We are now surprised that this should be adopted as a law for all time in the Transkei. Further, we would like the police force to have the same conditions and regulations as appertain in the Republic as far as the police force is concerned. I mention this because there is already an outcry among the Bantu police that they can get free medical attention , but the same privilege is not extended to their families. I put it to the hon . Minister that he should take note of this fact and make it possible for the families of these policemen to get free medical attention in the same way as the men . That is all I wish to bring forward and ask the hon. Minister to take note of for I have already mentioned that the police force is essential and indeed their wives and families are part and parcel of the police force themselves. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chaimman, you will recall that in interjecting to the remarks made by the hon. member for Nyandeni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, I asked him why he was called Douglas and not George. I thought he was going to reply to the effect that the reason is to prevent confusion . Now the reason why we have chosen in this Bill to introduce the appellation " Superintendent" instead of "Commissioner" is merely to prevent confusion . There are already too many commissioners . We have the Commissioner- General ; we have the railway commissioners; we have the police commissioners; we have the Bantu Affairs commissioners ; we have the commissioners of pensions; we have the Workmen's Compensation commissioner; we have the Commissioner of Prisons ; we have commissioners of oaths and so on.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You seem to be under a misapprehension that Act No. 7 affects the White man only. CHIEF NDAMASE : But you said that your Bill was based on Act No. 7 of 1958. -310-

CHIEF NDAMASE : commissioners too.

The

Republic has those

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We don't want to add any more · that is why I say we have too many commissioners already. In fact, as you may know the position is that in England they use the same word or appellation " superintendent" instead of "commissioner' , so there is nothing wrong with the use of the word here. Now there is a lot of fear about

this question of the police searching without a warrant, I will first of all quote to you the South African Criminal Law and Procedure Act, 1955, where the same provision is contained that the police can search without a warrant if upon reasonable grounds they feel that some object or some instrument for the commission of crime or with which a crime has been committed , or some corpus delicti is being hidden. The position is that human nature has got this element if anything does not concern him then he sees some danger in it until he himself is actually involved. Most people take the police as being enemies of the community but once he is wronged the policeman is the first man he runs to. Now imagine on a saturday moming somebody steals your suitcase from the car and you get some information that your suitcase has been hidden in a certain place · it does not matter where. You go to a policeman and the policeman says to you: I understand you , but I have got no search warrant so I cannot go and search there and I will have to wait until Monday to get a warrant from the magistrate. How would you feel about it? Would you not say that the police force is useless? This provision in the Act is exactly the same. It says: "Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in any other law contained but subject to the provisions of the Constitution Act, any member of the force may, in the performance of the functions referred to in section 6, search without warrant any person , premises , other place, vehicle, vessel or aircraft, or receptacle of whatever nature at any place in the Transkei within a distance of one mile of any border between the Transkei and any other part of the Republic or any foreign state or territory and seize anything found by him upon such person or upon or at or in such premises , other place , vehicle, vessel , aircraft or receptacle." That is the provision . CHIEF NDAMASE : What is this section 5 then?

this question of a provision for the police to be turned, or transformed, or transfigured into a batta• • lion in times of war CHIEF NDAMASE : In times of emergency.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, we don't want that. In time of war or time of trouble we want our people to enlist as soldiers voluntarily. You want us to introduce some form of martial law into the Bill. It will be martial law if at all a man has joined as a policeman and we put in his contract that in times of war he will be turned into a soldier. That is martial law and we don't want that. It is not that we cannot draft it because we can do it better than you can , but don't ask us to do it. I feel there has been very little argument from the other side , which is indicative that they are very much in line with us as far as this Bill is concemed. THE CHAIRMAN: I put the question that the Bill be read a second time. Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The committee stage will be taken tomorrow, Mr. Chairman . The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 8th June, 1966. WEDNESDAY, 8TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This refers to Act No. 7. It does not refer to ours. CHIEF NDAMASE: But you said there was a section 5 referred to there . What is that section 5? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It refers to section 5 of Act no. 7 of 1958.

REPORT OF SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS MR. R. MSEN GANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I lay upon the table a copy of the Report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts, 1966.

CHIEF NDAMASE : Will you read it?

TRANSKEI EDUCATION BILL : THIRD READING

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am not going to turn up pages now.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Education Bill be read a third time.

CHIEF NDAMASE : But that section may be different from your section.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It may be and it may not. Let us not conjecture now, let us deal with facts. I am replying to your argument. If at all I quote to you section 5 and it refers to another section you will refer me to that section and so on ad infinitum, and where do we end? Now the hon. member referred to the question of a fine of R100 or three months ' imprisonment. I think here we are very fair and sympathetic. We know that it is difficult for our people to raise the amount of R100 so we give him a shorter period of imprisonment than the period provided in the Republic. You say we must put R100 and keep six motnhs · no, my friend, we want to keep R100 but we want to sympathize with the offenders, so if a man has no money , instead of working six months, he will only work three months. Now with regard to

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to.

C The Bill was read a third time.

TRANSKEI LIQUOR LAWS

AMENDMENT BILL :

THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Liquor Laws Amendment Bill , 1966 , be read now a third time.

I THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr. Chairman. ()

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1

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That refers to the Afrikaans version of the Bill.

Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time.

OPPOSITION MEMBER : Read it. TRANSKEI POLICE BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House converts itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to. House in Committee

On Clause 1 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , would the hon. Minister please give a further explanation in connection with clause 1 (ii ). Will he please explain who are commissioned officers.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We are dealing with the English version , not the Afrikaans version. MR. NOTA: I thought (vii) in Afrikaans would have interpreted (vii) in English. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You see, when making a Bill, usually in two languages in the Republic · that is, in English and Afrikaans · when dealing with the English section you put the little figure which shows the corresponding section in Afrikaans , corresponding to the English sub-section. It does not mean that is the interpretation of the English one. If for instance you come to a section (vi) in the English version and the corresponding section in Afrikaans is (x), you put that little (x) next to the English sub-section (vi).

Clause 1 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But you have commissioned officers in your amendment. How can you ask what they are? It says it is an officer appointed by commission under section 3 ( 1) (a).

On Clause 2

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister is aware that we have not put on our gloves as we generally do , but we would like to remind him, as we said to the hon. the Minister of Education yesterday , legislation must not be run through without any explanations especially for the hon. members on the other side. They get the benefit from our asking the questions. They would like explanations on this, particularly as this is a Department in which we are not very well versed. It is the first time we have come very close to the doings of this Department. We would ask the hon. Minister to be a bit patient and explain some of these things because that is the purpose for which they are meant. If he would explain when we ask and not say that we should understand. There are about 109 men here and they do not all understand .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: What does it mean when you say "appointed by commission "? MR. RAJUILI: Why do you bring a Bill you don't even understand? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am studying it to find out what you want explained . I do not have to talk in the air like you do.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, let us adjourn until the hon. Minister understands the Bill he has brought here. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This is the ordinary way of describing an officer who has been appointed by the Cabinet. It is not the Public Service Commission this time.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Does it mean the Cabinet? Have you read this thing? "Commissioned officer means officer appointed by commission " . Is that by the Cabinet? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes. CHIEF NDAMASE: Will you please explain this. You refer to commissioned officers and I think in the police force there are police who hold a certain ranksuch people as belong to the ranks of lieutenant and warrant officers. Now in this clause will you make it clear what these ranks are that you have in mind.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is so easy, Mr. Chairman, for members on the other side to start saying "Motivate" , but it is so difficult to find out what those big pumpkins on their shoulders do not understand. (Laughter) Now just tell me what you do not understand and I will reply. (Interjections) The position is that before the 11th December, 1963 - that is, before the constitution of the Transkei Government ; there was a police force in the Transkei belonging to the Republic of South Africa. Now this section merely sets out the composition of the Transkei police force, to the effect that it will be composed of all those people who will be appointed, as well as those people who will be transferred from the Republican Police Force to the Transkeian Police Force.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Just that. CHIEF NDAMASE : Can you not make it clear in the Bill? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No , otherwise you will have a whole book instead of a bill.

MR. K.G. NOTA : Mr. Chairman , in section 1 (ii) I would also like the hon. Minister to explain further because in that section he says "under section 3 (1) (a), and then there is (vii). What is that (vii)?

MR. RAJUILI : So it means that for the first time certain police will fall under you and for the first time you can feel you have something of a police force? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It means nothing of the sort. CHIEF MAJEKE : We are glad to have the explanation from the hon. Minister. We would like him to tell us about the police who are employed in the Republic and who would like to come to the Trans-

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kei. Now can they do that? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , they can make their application to the Superintendent of the Transkei police who in tum communicates with the Republican police - that is , with the highest authorities of the Republican police. MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, we would like to know how these two groups , the Transkei police and the S.A. police , will work in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That has presented no difficulty up to now. The reply is simple. They work in close co-operation. MR . MADIKIZELA : Do you mean that the police in the Transkei can go and work under the Republican Government as they work in the Transkei? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I thought your question was how they would work in the Transkei , not in the Republic. MR. L.A. LUWACA : How can we identify the S.A. Police from the Transkei police? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They have got "Transkei" on their shoulders . MR. MADIKIZELA : Have you got European police in the Transkei force in the same manner as you have African police in the Republican force? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We have got seconded White police in the Transkei , in the same way as we have seconded officials here. For instance , behind me we have Major Gerardy. MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, I would like to understand from the hon. Minister as to how the transfer of the police from the Republic to the Transkei takes place . Does it take place at the instance of the police themselves wanting to come to the Transkei , or is it because the authorities in the police force want them to come here? There is a second question . Is the pay between the Republic police and the Transkei police the same? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , the reply is that the police transfer from the Republic to the Transkei is done voluntarily. Those policemen who wish to be transferred to the Transkei are the ones who are transferred. There is no compulsion about it. I think some time during the last session I gave figures of the salary scales of the Transkeian police and compared them with the Republican police, where the members saw that the Transkei police were better paid than the Republican police.

MR. SINABA: The reason I put that question is because if that member has committed an offence in the Republic , would you still have a grudge against that man in the Transkei? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Supposing such a policeman was discharged because of having murdered someone, or stolen, do you think it would be a good thing for the Transkei police? That is why I say every case depends on its merits. I think that covers everything. MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, just one more question. I am thinking in terms of the present set-up in the Transkei . As the White populace according to our Constitution, are citizens of the Republic can a Transkei African policeman arrest such a White if he commits an offence , and could the hon. Minister in his reply also cover this side of it. What happens about bans? Can we also be banned by the Transkei police or can we only be banned by the Republican police? I am thinking of a position where perhaps the hon. Mr. Vorster bans one Mr. G.M. Matanzima who is the hon. the Minister of Justice in the Transkei, so that we may soon be without a Minister of Justice. (Laughter) Can he cover those points? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I will remind the hon . member for Maluti of the fact that the bans and other things are associated with the internal security of the country and internal security is not part of the functions allocated to the Transkei Government, so the reply is simple · the banning order will always come from the hon. Mr. J.B. Vorster, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him. With regard to arrest and things like that, the status quo remains. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Explain ! THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If you do not know it, it is not my fault and anyway it has nothing to do with the section we are dealing with now.

Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as is evident , this section is selfexplanatory. It deals with the appointment, discharge or resignation of officers and sets out the powers of the Cabinet in connection therewith.

MR. S.M. SINABA : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon . Minister what would happen if by any chance a man was in the police force in the Republic and was disqualified and removed from the force, can he be admitted to the Transkei police if applies? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, surely the hon. lone voice crying in the wilderness does not expect me to say "Yes" to that question. OPPOSITION

MR . MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, there is something I do not quite understand here. It says the Cabinet may appoint by "commission " . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I stated at the beginning that the appointments were made by the Cabinet and not by the Public Service Commission. That refers to these people who may be asked by the Cabinet to see to the appointment or dismissal. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , having regard to the fact that in the Republic these powers of appointment are vested in the President, why has it been considered proper to vest those powers in the Cabinet here although we have a President?

MEMBERS : Why?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Because every case is considered on its merits .

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is to facilitate matters . You know, for instance, that sometimes you finish a bill here and it takes many

1

On Clause 4

months before it is signed by the State President. That may happen even to these people who have to be appointed or discharged . MR. BUBU : But does not that violate certain principles? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What principles? MR. BUBU: For instance , that the State President is a non-political figure.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You see, you have the Cabinet for instance in the Transkei making appointments and I do not think it is correct for anybody to always think of the Cabinet as a political body. We have got the whole civil service in the Transkei, for instance , appointed in the final analysis by the Cabinet. Now why do you specifically, in the case of the police , say you want a non-political body to appoint them? MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Justice says the Cabinet is not a political body. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I say you must not always think of it as a political body.

MR. RAJUILI : He says we should not always think of it as a political body . He does not deny that they are sometimes a political body. Is that the position · that they are sometimes, and about 98 per cent of the time , a political body that may be prejudiced against a certain officer who may not subscribe to their particular political philosophies? Do I take that to mean that if not, how can he convince this House that a body composed of components of political heads can somersault and be equated to the position of a State President who is above politics? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the trouble is that the other side has got a lot of the sentiment of mimicry . You would like to mimic everything and when we do mimic you start saying we get instructions from Pretoria. (Laughter) CHIEF MAJEKE : You have a peep at those papers there. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , I have got my own mind. I will not be told by anyone when to have a peep. Now I say we are not prepared to mimic every time because if you mimic all the time you become a parrot. (Laughter) We do not want to be that, and the simple answer to your question is that the powers of the State President were vested in the Cabinet by virtue of section 22 of the Transkei Constitution Act.

MR. MADIKIZELA : Why did you not allow the Paramount chief to appoint the police force , because you did mention that they appointed whoever was in charge of an army, although I am not talking about an army here.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think there is an element of clowning in that question and I am not prepared to answer it.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have an amendment to move in connection with this section. It reads as follows: "That clause 4 be amended so that there be a new sub-clause (a) to read as follows : ' Any powers vested in the Superintendent under sub-section (a) may, subject to his direction be exercised by any other commissioned officer designated by him '." The Superintendent may not be well or may be on leave and in that case I think he should have someone acting for him. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And if the Assistant Superintendent is appointed Acting Superintendent does he not ipso facto have the powers of the Superintendent? CHIEF NDAMASE : The Republican Govemment gave powers to the Commissioner to be able to carry out certain duties and functions . I think at the same time the Republican Govemment apportioned certain areas known as police areas. As an example let me say that there are certain areas which can be attended to by the police Superintendent and at the same time the same thing occurs. Should a situation like that arise could he not appoint another commissioned officer to act for him in another police area? I do not know whether the police force in the Transkei is divided according to police areas , but I think it is so divided. It is for that reason that I am putting in this amendment, to enable the work to run smoothly in the Transkei . The hon. Minister said today he does not want to mimic...

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I said " all the time ". You must watch my words . I do not say anything that will put me in a corner. CHIEF NDAMASE: I am telling you it is time you mimicked in this particular case . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I wonder if the hon. member has , in the first instance , considered the size of the Republic compared with the Transkei , where the Commissioner of Police sits in Pretoria. He has all the provinces · Cape, Natal, Orange Free State and Transvaal - compared with the Transkei where the Superintendent is at Umtata, with these many districts nearby. In the Act there is a provision for the delegation of powers by the Commissioner of Police - that is , in Act No. 7 of 1958 - and even that section limits the delegation to the person above the rank of a lieutenant, so you can see that this delegation of powers is not a thing that is taken lightly. It cannot be delegated to anybody, but to meet your requirements that can be done by regulations made under this Bill when it becomes an Act, as we have for instance in the regulations for the Republican police . There is a section there for the delegation of powers . It reads as follows : "If he deems it expedient for the efficient administration of the force , the Commissioner may, with due regard to the provisions of sub-section (2), section 4 and sub- section 15 (3) of the Act, delegate on such conditions as he may determine any power conferred on him in terms of these regulations to an officer or employee defined in the Public Service Act , 1957... " and so on. So those will be done by regulation . CHIEF NDAMASE : And you will do it?

Clause 3 put and agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I promise you -314-

it will be done .

obvious. It is to report the matter to the higher authorities.

MR. N. JAFTA: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman.

MR. BUBU: Which are, in this case? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Right up as far as the Superintendent .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I thought the mover understood the position .

CHIEF NDAMASE: I oppose it. MR. JAFTA: In the explanation given by the hon. Minister, if matters are as he states we accept the situation . We are , however, of the opinion that the Superintendent should have somebody to act for him in case he is not available. As you have explained that you will see that that will be carried out we accept your explanation. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : So do you withdraw the amendment? CHIEF MAJEKE: No , we are not withdrawing it. The hon. Minister is accepting it.

sa MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: In connection with the same me clause, when the police are investigating offences it generally happens that the police go to a location where there is a headman, but they do not tell the headman what they have come to do and they go straight to the place where the people are whom they wish to see, and there is always some trouble over that. Would you see to it that the police should go to the headman first? It has happened in the Engcobo district where the police left others in charge and went to a certain place in the location without telling the headman, and one of the police was killed. The headman was surprised to hear that.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I think I agree with you that it is only proper that when the police have to investigate a case in the location they should contact the headman of that location , so I think your remarks will be noted.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, I say it will be incorporated in the regulations. You want it to be inserted in the Act and I say " no" . It will be in the regulations . Now your duty , if you agree and trust that it will be done in the regulations, is to withdraw your amendment.

ar

252

s be

Clause 6 put and agreed to.

On Clause 7

CHIEF NDAMASE: I do not know why you do not make provision for this in the Act, and thereafter incorporate it in the regulations , just as the Republican Government has done. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It has not incorporated that. It is not the same.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: It has. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In the Act it cannot be done to anybody else except the person of that rank in the Act. CHIEF NDAMASE: But in the Act it is commissioned officers, not every policeman. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall put the question. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, although I feel uncertain I will withdraw the amendment, seeing that he promises to put this in the regulations . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the seconder agree?

MR. N. JAFTA: Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to. Clause 4 put and agreed to. Clause 5 put and agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this merely sets out the powers and duties of the police. For instance , it allows him to serve summonses or warrants of arrest. I know of areas where sometimes there are no messengers of the court. In such cases the police are sometimes employed to serve summonses. This also sets out that in some cases the members of

MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment that the word "member" in clause 7 (4) be deleted and substituted by the words " commissioned officer" . The reason for this amendment is that the word " member" as defined in clause 1 (v) means commissioned officer, non-commissioned officer, constable, and it goes on further down to include special constable in employment in the force , empowered by the Superintendent. Secondly, this section deiining so many grades of police who are authorized to search without a warrant in any place, vehicle, vessel , etc. , does not seem right. I was thinking that a commissioned officer only should be delegated with such powers to search without a warrant, because it means that the public is subjec to searches by a man who may just have been a policeman for about a year. You know that before, during the Republican days , even a high official in the force had to search with a warrant .

MR. LUWACA: It is the same. I know the position obtains anywhere that all premises can be searched without a warrant, but then I recommend

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , where a citizen in the Transkei is convinced that a member of the police force is not performing his duties when the situation calls for his doing so, what is the position?

that the powers must be delegated to a commissioned officer.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The position is

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, -315-

ED

The

the police can be authorized to prosecute in criminal cases..

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is the position now in the Republic?

On Clause 6

al

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201

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El

there is nothing in law to prevent a policeman taking the woman with him and going to find another woman whom he can delegate to search her.

the amendment sought here would be more or less tantamount to defeating the ends of justice I think I explained in full the purpose of this section yesterday. Now supposing you are in an area where there is no commissioned officer, and upon reasonable grounds the member of the force who is not a commissioned officer feels that if he does conduct a search at certain premises or in a vehicle or receptacle he might discover, say, some corpus delicti in a crime. Supposing you have fifteen bags of dagga in your car right in the wilderness , and the policeman feels he must search your car, do you expect him to leave you and run back to Umtata to get a commissioned officer? Surely you see that the ends of justice would have been defeated in that case? You have referred to the olden days - the good old days when there were not as many criminals as we have today. That is why even the Republican Act has had to be amended accordingly. It is because of the amount of crime. You never trust a man today carrying a suitcase , because he might be carrying something else . I think , Mr. Chairman , the hon . member realises now that even in his case, if he lost a suitcase and he suspected it was somewhere , the policeman cannot go miles to fetch a commissioned officer while the suitcase is being hidden somewhere further away.

MR LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , after this explanation I will withdraw the amendment . MR J N BUSAKWE Mr. Chairman , may I please have an explanation under 7 (c) ? It is stated that any policeman can prosecute . Most of the police are not learned in the law, as attorneys are . If there is an instance of a case where an attorney is defending, the case will be won by the attorney because the prosecutor does not understand the law and then the person who has suffered a loss loses more. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I think again I will draw the attention of the members to the word " may" . It does not mean that in all cases a policeman will be required to prosecute. It is only in those cases where certain difficulties have arisen and even then we do not take policemen who know nothing about criminal law , for instance . All policemen are expected to and do read criminal law. We have had some of them who last year passed their courses in prosecution, so it is not every policeman who will just be taken at random .

MR LUWACA: What about a case where the search has to be conducted in premises?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I gave an example of that yesterday. I said , suppose you were travelling in your car with a big suitcase full of valuables. You get out of your car and you go to some house. In this village there is no commissioned officer and when you come out of that house you do not find your suitcase in the car, and you get some information that this suitcase went into some into some premises belonging to somebody else. There is a policeman next to you and you tell him that you lost your suitcase just now, and that you have information that it has gone into a certain house. The constable says he is not a commissioned officer and will have to leave Ngqeleni and go to Umtata to get a commissioned officer. By the time he returns with the commissioned officer, your suitcase has gone as far as Engcobo .

CHIEF MAJEKE: So this really means a policeman who has some criminal law? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: When we say "" 'any member " we are just covering up. It does not mean we will take someone who knows nothing about criminal law.

Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I think the members will appreciate the purpose of this section. It is to prevent the members of the force from suddenly deciding to resign just because they see a disturbance, or there is a war or something like that.

1 MR LUWACA: It gives the man a good chance to run away: (Laughter)

MR. LUWACA: You said your policemen will not go to war.

MR . K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , I wish to say this before seconding the amendment. I will draw the attention of the Minister to the provisions that a policeman cannot search a woman. It is necessary that a policeman has to search a woman.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is just to prevent them from resigning. There is nothing in this section to make them go to war. They are supposed to keep law and order while the war is going on, or whatever caused the emergency. As you see, there is nothing to say they will be marshalled to go to war.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is that anything to do with the amendment?

Clause 8 put and agreed to. MR. NOTA: Yes, I am speaking to this amendment. If the policewoman is not there , she can be searched by an ordinary woman. If the woman is out in the rural areas and the constable is suspicious that she is carrying something stolen on her and there is no other woman available to search her, what does the constable do then? Is it required of him that he should leave her to go and look for a woman to search her? I am trying to find out from the hon. Minister exactly what the constable should do under those circumstances.

On Clause 9 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I rise to put an amendment that the words "one hundred" be deleted and the word " fifty" substituted in this clause. The purpose of the amendment is to reduce the maximum fine of R100 to R50. The first reason is that we Bantu normally receive low salaries. R50 is already quite a substantial sum .

THE

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In such cases

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MINISTER

OF

EDUCATION : It says

"not exceeding ". CHIEF NDAMASE : I note that this is the maximum fine and I think that it should be reduced . With the R100 you are mimicking the Republican Government. However, you reduced the term of imprisonment to three months . Why can you not reduce the maximum fine as well ? You mentioned yesterday that the reason for reducing the maximum term of imprisonment was to allow him to accept.... (Interjections ) In your efforts to increase the number of prisoners perhaps you are desirous of increasing prison labour. By doing that you are causing a shortage of labour for people who wish to be employed . Are you aware that the people require employment? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which labour am I decreasing?

need such people . Although I do not think the hon. Minister will ever do away with the White police altogether, because I think it will take a long time for Bantu constables to learn , but whilst they are being trained by the seconded police it means that the fines should not be too severe , taking into consideration the fact that these people have to work under difficult conditions , in cold and rainy weather, and their salaries are not higher than those of the other civil servants who enjoy good working conditions. In truth I think their salaries are lower than the grades I have mentioned. I think the hon. the Minister of Justice has listened very well. If he has not understood , I am sorry. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE. Mr. Chairman , I sometimes wonder if the hon . member understood the purpose of a punishment. OPPOSITION MEMBERS Yes , we do .

CHIEF NDAMASE: The convicts here in Umtata are employed in the town by private people . There many people seeking employment here who would otherwise be employed , and by this provision you make their chances of employment even less. It is for that reason that I rise to amend this clause. I think you will agree to this .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE It would appear that some of us think that a punishment should be such as to meet the convenience of the punished person . The intention of a punishment is that it must act as a deterrent. Now there is a misconstruction of the provision of the maximum fine or sentence. Whilst the maximum is put , we seem to direct our minds towards the maximum . It must be remembered that the maximum fine can only be resorted to under very, very few cases of extreme gravity . For that matter, I can even draw the attention of the members to the effect that section 10 provided for minor contraventions where the maximum fine is R10 . Section 9 is intended for those cases which are severe . I think the members did not quite look at section 9. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: We did.

CHIEF SS . MAJEKE: I do not know whether I should discuss this now, Mr. Chairman , or whether the hon. Minister is accepting the amendment?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No. CHIEF MAJEKE : I thought I was going to commend the hon. the Minister of Justice , but anyway I can still commend him if I have to compare him with the hon. the Minister of Education . The Minister of Education should be silent in this case, because if he had read this Bill properly he would find that this has been done in a proper way. I want to tell you that we like policemen very much and we know that they are doing good work to keep law and order in this country. We want to explain that the work done by the police is not in any way like the work done by the other servants in this country. Teachers live in houses and they do their work and close at a certain time, and clerks do likewise and other workers whom I shall not enumerate. The police who are keeping peace and order have no free time. They can be called even at night and they must use their brains at all time. I am seconding the amendment, Mr. Chairman . Their convictions and fines should be considered. It should be remembered that these people have been working hard. I know that before , the constables had their own regulations and if they committed any offence they had to be convicted by their own police officers and not by a court of law. I think this was done in order that these people should be treated not like other workers , but so that some consideration should be given to them. The reason is to try and make the police force attractive so that our sons do not run away from applying to join the police. If we cannot get policemen or people to join the police force , or if we do not make the work of the police attractive enough, then we shall not get policemen . The result will be that we shall have no police force and there will be no peace and order in the country. Our country is still a new one and it is starting to have self-government. That is why we advance such reasons , so that the young men will join the police force. Now that the Transkei is beginning to be established as a State , we -317-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE . It deals also with the contravention of the provisions of this Act in as much as section 9 is a provision for the contraventions of this Act, but provided for cases of really extreme gravity. CHIEF MAJEKE here.

It does not stipulate that

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE My leamed friend says it does not stipulate , but it should be remembered that the people who deal with the law are the people who decide on the gravity of the situation . Now I think one of the reasons why my friend across the floor, from Nyandeni , really hammers this question of the three months /R100 , six months/R100 , is just because of the reduction from six months to three months. You will find that today in most legislation it is always up to about about three months, simply because the legislature wants to avoid any such case being subject to automatic review, because the provision of the law is that any sentence above three months is subject to automatic review, and that means that it must be sent to the judges for review. That is why we have reduced it from six months to three months . We do not want this rigmarole of the cases being sent to the judges for automatic review because it entails a lot of work.

The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION .

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

=

3

S

On Clause 10

The debate on the committee stage of the Transkei Police Bill was resumed.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the first portion enables the Superintendent to try members of the force who are not commissioned officers, and also prescribes a fine which shall not exceed R10 . It also prescribes the manner in which such fine can be recovered · that is, by stoppages from the salary of

MR. W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, I rise to support the views expressed by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase when he advocated that the maximum fine be reduced from R100 . Take the case of a policeman whose salary is R80 a month. In his differences with the Superintendent he · may have to pay a fine of R10. Then he goes out on duty to the reserves and when he is there he feels hungry and he goes to a beer drink · not that he likes to drink, but because of hunger. Then he is found drunk and he is made to pay a fine of R60. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Don't make things ridiculous Who can be fined R60 for drunkenness?

MR. MADIKIZELA: Was he employed to work or to pay fines? What about his family? When he has been forced to pay the fine he is compelled to accept bribes from someone and then he is put into gaol. What are you trying to do to these men? Don't you think that by treating your employees well, people will respect your Department more? You mentioned that a fine is just a deterrent. R5 or R10 is quite a substantial sum. I know that because if you earn R50 that should be your money and you should not have to pay it in fines. Even in the case of an animal you do not have to hit it until it dies. The R100 which is above the salary of a servant is tantamount to killing that servant. (Interjections) According to this it appears that the whole police force will just work to pay fines. I think on that account that your Department should consider reducing this maximum fine and I think R50 is quite big enough as a punishment. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman, just a question for the sake of clarification . In his reply the hon. Minister referred us to section 10, and he said this section 9 will only be imposed when the case is serious , but that has not been specified here. Now the second point is that you will find in both sections 9 and 10 it refers to any member

the person accused. The second part deals with the witnesses the summoning of the witnesses and the administration of oaths to such witnesses, and also prescribes that if the person accused admits guilt or pleads guilty to the charge, there shall be no need to call evidence. The third portion Ideals with the submission of the record to the Superintendent and enables such Superintendent to vary any sentence passed. The fourth part prescribes that such sentence cannot have any force and effect at law unless it has been confirmed. The fifth portion enables the person who has been convicted to appeal to the Minister. The sixth part enables execution of the sentence to be suspended pending appeal. The seventh part enables the Superintendent to restrict the jurisdiction of the commissioned officer if he thinks fit. No. 8 enables the Minister who may hear the appeal to vary again the sentence and give his own ruling. That is , he may find a man not guilty after he has been found guilty.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I stand up to say one or two words commenting favourably, I think for the first time, in regard to this hon. Minister since self-rule. He has surprised me since we came here. This is the kind of thing where we would like to have disciplinary measures meted out to some officers in this Department, compared with some announcements such as we were handed out some time ago. With this Government they say they work as a team sometimes and one wonders if they should not have at least brought that other Bill to be handled by someone who knows how to handle justice not like some of those who issue subpoenas when they know nothing about it.

of the force. It does not specify whether the Superintendent or any other officer who is a non-commissioned officer is stipulated in section 10. Section 9 reads "any member of the force " and it has no qualification . Section 10 says "any member of the force who is not a commissioned officer''. I wish he would explain that. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I have already said that it is in the discretion of the officials to decide on the seriousness of any offence. Section 9 refers to all the members of the force , whether commissioned officers or noncommissioned officers, or the Superintendent. In fact trials under section 9 will always be conducted by a magistrate, whereas section 10, as I have said, will deal with those matters that can be tried departmentally. Now that is why in section 10 there are provisions for trial of those who are not noncommissioned officers , and in the subsequent sections those who are commissioned officers , or the Superintendent. So from section 10 you deal there with departmental inquiries. The amendment moved by Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was lost by 31 votes to 47. Clause 9 put and agreed to by 49 votes to 31. -318-

THE MINISTER OF drafted by a legal adviser.

EDUCATION :

It

was

Clause 10 put and agreed to.

On

Clause

11

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I wish my hon. friend from Nyandeni will move his amendment after I have explained this clause. This deals with misconduct now by commissioned officers. You remember section 10 dealt with non- commissioned officers and this deals with commissioned officers other than the Superintendent. This gives the Superintendent power to charge a commissioned officer with misconduct. The charge shall contain a directive to the person charged to submit in writing his denial or admission of the charge and gives a period within which such should be done · viz. fourteen days. Now the third part, which has an amendment proposed, says that if the person charged denies the charge then the Minister shall appoint a person in the service of the Government to constitute a board of inquiry. Now what we have here is that if a commissioned officer who is a member of the police force is charged, his charge policeman but by another person like a magistrate, for instance - anyone who is in the employ of the

Govemment.

been charged in a court of law. You see, the charges in sections 9 and 10 refer to the contraventions of

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now this is departmental. A paramount chief does not fall under the Department of Justice. Now this amendment, if allowed, will restrict it so that under no circumstances must a policeman's case or inquiry be presided over by a person who is not a policeman. (Interjections) Do you imply that magistrates know less law than policemen? Do you imply that magistrates know less of meting out justice than policemen? MR. RAJUILI : That question ought not to have been put to this side of the House.

THE

MINISTER

OF

JUSTICE :

It

was

an

interjection from that side and I am answering the interjection. This section is to enable a person in the employ of the Government, say a magistrate to inquire into the circumstances . Now the fourth portion enables the board of inquiry, in consultation with the Superintendent , to stipulate the time and place at which the inquiry will be held. (5) deals with the question of witnesses , the calling and cross-examination of witnesses. MR.

RAJUILI:

You

don't

subpoena them?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You authorise. Now there is a provision to the effect that failure of a commissioned officer to attend , and the case is proceeded with in his absence , his failure to attend will not invalidate the proceedings being carried on in his absence. I think that is common cause.

this Act. Now it may frequently happen that a person who is a policeman may be charged in a court of law with contravention of some other law, not under the Police Act, and it may be necessary now for the Department to take action against that policeman. Now this section (8) provides that when such a person has been convicted in a court of law , it will not be necessary to charge him under subsection (1). The record of the proceedings in the court of law will be taken as conclusive proof that the man has committed the offence , unless the conviction has been set aside by a superior court or the man has been granted pardon. Now as soon as the record reaches the Superintendent then he, under sub-section (9) , transmits a recommendation based on that conviction to the Minister for transmission to the Cabinet. Now on the receipt of any recommendation under sub- section (7) or (9) the Cabinet may (a) take any of the steps provided for in section 3 (b); or (b) may direct that no further action be taken in the matter.

NO

MR . RAJUILI : It means now that you are bringing in the people who have been living in the forest and who know nothing about this . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The position is that constitutionally all people working under the Government are employees of the Government, so it would not be equitable for a single Minister to deal with this. You have always been complaining about rights and things . MR. RAJUILI: Yes , now you are beginning to see things as we do . Yesterday the thing ended with the Minister.

Re

ST

MR. NOTA: Like a chief or a paramount chief? 017

S MR. RAJUILI : I suppose if he should have guine reasons for defaulting, proceedings will not be taken against him? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Definitely. In any case where a man cannot appear that is taken cognizance of. Sub-section (6) deals with the actual evidence at the inquiry and refers to section 244 of the Criminal Procedure Act, No. 56 of 1955. I may here advise you that that deals with the admissibility of a confession by the person charged, that it can be taken into cognizance when his case is being tried. (7) enables the board of inquiry to submit its findings and recommendations to the Minister who will submit same to the Cabinet. MR. LUWACA: What happens if the Minister is charged with misconduct? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : By whom? Do you realise that you are right off at a tangent because we are dealing with a police bill here, not a Minister's bill.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The position is that if at all there is any employee of my Department who is to be dismissed, I have to consult my colleagues.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to put forward this amendment, that the words "provided he is a commissioned officer of a senior rank to the charged officer" be inserted between the words " person" and "in" in sub-clause 3 of clause 11 and also that in the same sub-clause the word "Govemment" be deleted and the word "Force" substituted. In his speech the hon. Minister said that this particular sub-section was brought in in order to enable even a magistrate to investigate a report of misconduct on the part of a policeman. This sub-section is under the procedure where an investigation is being carried on in regard to misconduct by a policeman . The Minister will bear with me if I bring paralle' , because according to section 10 (1) (b) of Act ' o. 7 of 1958 the State President , when investigationS

DE

EC 20

IS

are being carried on into the misconduct of a policeman....

MR. RAJUILI: What would be the size of the board?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where does the State President come in?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is nothing less than one.

Dep CHIEF NDAMASE : Especially when he is not a commissioned officer, as it appears in this Bill.

MR. RAJUILI : So two will also form a board?

Take people who are going to make inquiries and one of the three is a commissioned officer. The Minister will appoint the officer who is to take charge of this investigation . Let me take the case of a policeman who is charged at Cofimvaba.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Well, so far it is one. Now the eighth part deals with a charge of misconduct which may emanate after a man has -319-

se

According to this you can commission a magistrate and in that case there might possibly have been differences between that magistrate and the police man.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What about another policeman who is more likely to have quarreled with the accused? CHIEF NDAMASE : If it be anyone other than the magistrate that you can think of, because there might have been a difference between himself and the man concerned. In that case what will happen?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is very far-fetched. CHIEF NDAMASE : We would like this put perfectly clearly. In sub-section 10 it is stipulated that when a policeman is charged it will be a superior officer who will take charge of the case.

a Department of Justice and I think you should mimic , as you said , anything that is just from the Republican Government . This Bill has , I suppose , been written on the example of the police force Act that is standing. Now section 10 of the Republican Act has in sub-section (1) (b) a very fair and just provision for an inquiry and I will read it to you and the hon . members of the House. It says: "If the man then accused denies that he has been guilty of such misconduct the GovemorGeneral may, if in his opinion there is sufficient cause for further proceedings , appoint three or more fit and proper persons , one of whom shall be a commissioned officer of the force to constitute a board of inquiry for the investigation of the charge." Now I want to know why in the first instance you prefer making a commission of one person. Whether he be a magistrate or a policeman, why should it be one man? Three people are suggested in this Act I am giving to you as sufficient to constitute a board.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But do you know that the police officers in the establishment are more likely to have quarreled with their juniors than the magistrate?

MR. DIKO: Now I suppose your Secretary has got books behind you?

CHIEF NDAMASE : Don't put this as it is stated here. Even the Republican Government

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , I have got them in front of me.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What Act is that?

appoints.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Never mind the Republican Government now. CHIEF NDAMASE: Here is another point which is not clear. In your sub- section you say it is a person in the service of the Government. Let us take a magistrate whom you reckon is any person in the service of the Govemment, but a magistrate is in the Department of Justice . Why do you not specify that it must be a person in the Department of Justice, or a person in the force? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now do you appreciate the importance of the words "any person"?

MR . DIKO: Then please turn to page 27 of Act No. 7 of 1958. Now tell us why you want to deviate from that procedure? If the hon . Chief has consulted me I would have amended his amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Unfortunately he has not. MR. DIKO : That is why I am asking you to grant me permission , or you yourself can just take this thing as it is in Act No. 7 and put it in just as it is. The hon . Mr. Rajuili said that we have confidence in you , unlike your two colleagues in whom we have no confidence whatever. Now we have no confidence in the Ministers of Agriculture and Education because they do things which tend to embarrass their servants . (Interjections)

CHIEF NDAMASE : No. THE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you understand it may include just what you want to be included? If it is deemed fit, what you want to provide here might be that very person , and because it says "any person" it makes it elastic . CHIEF NDAMASE: Please listen , hon . Minister. I would like it included as it is in the amendment. (Interjections) I request you to put in this proviso and make it quite clear because the Government is comprised of several departments and I do not know whether your Department.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Suppose we had said that Mr. Midgely, the Secretary of the Interior, should be appointed to try that case?

CHIEF NDAMASE : But that is outside the Department. It is stipulated that it is the Minister in the Department of Justice . (Interjections) MR. C. DIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I second the amendment. I am not going to be long but I just want to ask a specific question from the hon . the Minister of Justice. Your Department is

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DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

MR . DIKO: Now we wish your policemen in the force to enjoy exactly the fairness that is being applied to the police force in the Republic. In all fairness to you and the members of the House I am asking you to adopt that proviso as it is there, and we shall continue to have confidence in and shall believe that you are a Minister of Justice. So the two points of this proviso are that there should be more than one person and , secondly. among those people there must be one who is conversant with the rules and regulations of the police force. We are pleading with the hon. Minister to accept this. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , it is a great pity that my hon . friend from Qaukeni region, who was supposed to stand up and second my hon. friend from Nyandeni did not do so at all, but he raised something different from what the hon. member from Nyandeni raised. However, in reply to his question I will draw his attention to ordinary criminal case trials . Even attorneys and advocates in the country have different opinions about the personnel to constitute a tribunal for a

case. Some prefer a trial by a judge and a jury, because they prefer that thereby their clients will receive justice ; others prefer that it must be a judge and assessors; others prefer that it must be a judge alone. So it is a question as to whether one believes that we can get justice from many people, the sum total of whom may be ten unjust men, or three unjust men, and one may feel that one's case may be better dealt with by one just man. It is for that reason that we just chose one man to form the board.

MR. DIKO: I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of Justice prefers not to answer me. Please, hon. Minister, do not evade my question. In the name of justice I am asking you to tell this House why you have deemed it necessary to avoid taking sub-section 10 (1) (b) of Act No. 7 of 1958. Why have you avoided that? Now your answer is that there are different opinions about the administration of justice. I take it therefore that your view and the view of the Government is that you must have one man. Kindly give us reasons for thinking that way, because that is the point of the argument. We take it you want one man and this man is not properly defined. It may be a magistrate and it may be a policeman, or it might be a paramount chief. I suppose while the hon . Minister is not listening his Secretaries are taking notes .

MR. DIKO: That is evasive . Why?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have told you I prefer it because I feel that justice will come out of one man. I have told you that lawyers and advocates feel differently on the subject too and the fact that you feel differently may not mean that you are correct. Let us come to the amendment. The amendment is whether this man should be a policeman or not, and I can tell you that most policemen preferto be tried by a non-policeman than by another policeman because you find that invariably the police establishment is like a family where they may have their own petty quarrels and perhaps the charge may emanate from the police station where the policeman is stationed, and you say he must again be tried by a policeman . The amendment moved by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was lost by 32 votes to 49. Clause 11 put and agreed to by 50 votes to 33. On Clause 12 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, this section prescribes the manner of procedure when a Superintendent has been charged with misconduct. OPPOSITION MEMBER : By whom?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have heard every word you said. MR. DIKO : Now, here is the important thing. You want one man and you are not specific whether he shall be a magistrate , whether he shall be a policeman or a paramount chief or an ordinary bricklayer in the street. THE MINISTER

OF JUSTICE: Or yourself.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: When the Superintendent is accused of misconduct the Minister reports the matter to the Cabinet who may direct the Minister to take action against the Superintendent. The Minister appoints any person in the employ of the Goverment in terms of section 11 and the provisions of section 11 mutatis mutandis follow. MR . G.K. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , I should like to know who charges the Superintendent.

MR. DIKO: Or myself. So you must be specific that this man shall be so- and-so, as the Act which is an example to you makes it specific that there shall be three and that one of them shall be a commissioned member of the police force . I understand that from your point of view you prefer one man. The question is : Why do you want that one man? In our opinion the way you have put it is so elastic that you may do anything. We do not want you to follow the example of the hon. the Minister of Education who wants power to do exactly as he likes with the teachers , and appoints someone to commission of inquiry whom he knows will do his will. Within five years you will have no teachers in the Education Department because all the men will run away, like the hon. Mr. Mpondo.

THE MINISTER appointed to inquire.

OF

JUSTICE : The person

MR . NOTA: I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Justice what happens if the Superintendent is a seconded official and he is involved in a case resulting in his dismissal. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The matter is taken up with the Republican Government.

Clause 12 put and agreed to. On Clause 13

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He ran away long before I took over.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This section merely defines misconduct. I have already explained that it may fall under sections 9 and 10 and also any other offence committed by a member of the force .

MR. DIKO: What I am trying to emphasize is that you must please be specific as a man we know to be just . Why not take this paragraph as it stands?

Clause 13 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is a pity that at present we seem to be discussing outside the amendment.

On Clause 14 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This, Mr. Chairman, prescribes how witnesses who fail to attend after having been summoned to do so, or who wilfully fail to reply to questions lawfully put to them, can be dealt with.

MR. DIKO: It is a question. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I have replied that I prefer one man.

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Put and agreed to.

members , I lay upon the table a copy of a Bill to amendthe Transkei Authorities Act , 1965, to provide for the extension of the periods of office of the councillors and members of the inferior administrative bodies referred to in Part VI of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, and to validate , subject to certain conditions , the submission of certain financial statements to tribal authorities by the treasurers of those bodies. In view of the fact that

Clauses 15 to 17 put and agreed to. On Clause 18 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , would the Hon . Minister please explain what sort of people these will be that are going to receive wages.

the Bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1964 , I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) that the Minister of Finance recommends that the Bill be considered by the Assembly.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is a wage? Tell me that first. We have various ranks of police, right down to the home guard. MR . DIKO : Mr. Chairman, you talk in this section of privileges which will be suspended. Now I do not know what those privileges and benefits are. It has come to my notice and I suppose to the notice of most of the members of the House that there is a certain privilege which African police are not enjoying. I want to know if it is included here. You gave us some details , but I am interested particularly in the members of the police who enjoy the privilege of being attended to medically free of charge, but their wives and children do not enjoy that privilege , while their counterparts the seconded officials , do enjoy this privilege. I want to know if, in your new Bill, you are contemplating putting that right so that the African policemen, together with their wives and families will enjoy that privilege .

Mr. Chairman, hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, I move that the Bill be now read a first time. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr. Chairman .

Agreed to. The Bill was read a first time . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the second reading will be on Friday, 10th June, 1966 . TRANSKEI POLICE BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House converts itself into committee.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chaiman and hon. members, there is a motion to this effect. I might inform the House that we have an amendment to that motion and if our amendment is adopted provision will be made in the regulations to that 1 effect . Even without the motion we have the initiative to do that.

CHIEF J. DUMALISILE: I second, Mr. Chair-

man. Agreed to. House in Committee

Clause 18 put and agreed to .

The debate was resumed .

Clauses 19 and 20 put and agreed to.

On Clause 21

The debate was adjourned.

House Resumed The

Deputy

Chairman

reported

progress.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 9th June , 1966 . THURSDAY , 9TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Friday, the 10th day of June , 1966, I propose to move the first reading of a Bill to provide for the amendment of the Co- operative Societies Act , 1939.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The first portion of this section , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , prohibits dealing in, sale or loan of Government property in possession of a member of the force. The members might be puzzled by this last phrase "or his own property". It frequently happens that some Government property in the possession of a member of the force ultimately becomes his own property like, for instance , these big trunks and overcoats. This prohibition is inserted here in order to help facilitate cases of transfer where a member of the force is suddenly transferred and required to collect all his property , put it in a big suitcase and take it with him in which case , if he has disposed of that trunk, he might say he cannot move now, or he may not have an overcoat. It does not really refer to his suit or his shirt or his hat, but to property that might have become his by reason of his deriving it from the Government . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : What suit are you referring

to? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Private , like one you are wearing. Now sub- section (2) provides that any such sale or dispossession or alienation will be null and void ab initio. Subsection (3) deals with people who deal in such

the

TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. -322-

ings. Let me give you a crude example, but it will illustrate my point , where an African policeman deflowers a girl .

articles knowing them to have been handed over to him in contravention of this section , and provides that they shall be guilty of an offence by so doing. Sub-section (4) provides that such articles or animals will not be subject to attachment or seizure in execution of a writ, for instance , against a member of the force.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is a common

one . MR. GUZANA: Even if it is common . Whether it is common or not it does not mean it is not a

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I take it that one of the reasons why there is a prohibition against the disposal of property acquired from the police force to the public is to prevent unscrupulous members of the public impersonating the police. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is one of them . MR . GUZANA: One gets the impression therefore that no matter how old a policeman's uniform is , it has to be used. I am fearing the appearance of a ragged policeman on the road. Now I wonder if we could not have further clarification by rewording the last phrase " or his own property acquired from the Government" . I do not know if that is possible, Sir, for the purposes of clarifying that provision in sub-section (1).

crude one. Judgement is obtained against him and execution cannot be levied against his wages or salary. More often than not that is about the only asset, so to say, that the policeman has. Isn't there a hardship placed upon creditors who may seek to recover against a policeman who is an African? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I quite appreciate the remarks that have been forwarded by my hon . friend. For a long time I used also to suffer under the same difficulty , until I discovered a provision in the Native Administration Act, No, 38 of 1927 , whereby in proceedings in the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court, judgement can be lifted and made a judgment of the magistrate's court. I forget the section now in the Act, but once that judgment is in the magistrate's court you can apply section 65 .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I do not think it would do any harm. We can put it that way.

MR. GUZANA: I

MR. GUZANA: Thank you , meaning property acquired from the Government in his capacity as a policeman . I do hope, Mr. Chairman , that subsection (3) will be applied sympathetically. Take the case of the herdboy of a policeman being lent an old police coat to go out into the veld to look after stock. I think it should be impressed upon the members of the police force that there is this provision in order to protect the members of the public.

3

Wo I

accept that, Mr. Chairman.

Clause 22 put and agreed to.

Clause 23 put and agreed to.

D

On Clause 24 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , this section is brought in to deal with some of the persons my hon . friend across the floor mentioned, who might falsely pretend to be members of the police force.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I think my hon. friend across the floor knows that one of the nicest cases to defend is where a person is charged with receiving stolen property , well

MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I ask what will happen if, without wearing the garb of a policeman, I come across a situation which might well require immediate investigation and I tell a man that I am a member of the force and would like to find out facts about a situation which is developing, get hold of information and bring it to the police? Will I fall foul of this section?

knowing it to be stolen , because I have always found the State in a very great difficulty in proving that the person did so receive stolen property with the knowledge that it was stolen . I think therefore that we need have no fears as far as this is concerned. Clause 21 , as amended , put and agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , my hon. friend knows that in any criminal offence uiere must be what is known as mens rea, or a

On Clause 22 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , the police seem to have an all- embracing coverage under section 22, and I think policemen might well incur debt extravagantly, knowing full well that their salaries or wages or allowances cannot be attached and they might get away with quite a lot under this coverage. Now there is a qualifying clause - "other than a garnishee order" . Now there is provision for this order in the magistrate's court and in the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court but it is only possible to have the order issued by the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court if the employer is Bantu, the judgement debtor is Bantu and the judgement creditor is Bantu, If the employer is White then it is not possible to have a garnishee order. Then in the magistrate's court where a constable incurs debt it is possible to have section 65 proceedings against him and I do not see why the African constable should not be subject to section 65 proceed-323-

guilty state of mind. I think in such a case mens rea would be very much lacking.

Clause 24 put and agreed to . On Clause 25 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : As we can see, this section deals with various matters . Firstly, a person who by word, conduct or demeanour pretends he is a member of the force; agrees with, induces or attempts to induce any member to omit to carry out his duty, or to commit any act in conflict with his duty; or even offers or supplies int oxicating liquor to a member of the force while he is on duty ; or is a party to or aids , abets or incites to the commission of any act whereby any lawful order given to a member may be evaded , it provides that all those are punishable by law. Sub- section (2) sometimes a man might have a false certificate and that false cer-

ST

1

tificate might enable him to be employed as a policeman; or sometimes after he has been dismissed from the force he somewhere gets employment without revealing that he has been dismissed.

Clause 25 put and agreed to. Clauses 26 to 29 put and agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, protects the Government from liability. It frequently happens that people may well ask for a lift from a policeman who is driving a motor vehicle belonging to the Government and that vehicle may be involved in an accident, and the passenger who was with the policeman gets injured or dies . If he was perhaps the husband of a certain woman , this woman might claim damages against the Government for the loss of her husband . That

On Clause 30 ,

seeks to protect the Government.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , this protects the members of the force from liability for acts done that is, for instance, a policeman comes to you and carries a warrant and arrests you by virtue of that warrant, and it is later found that that warrant was irregular . This protects him from liability.

MR . GUZANA: Whilst you are standing, there is a man who might have information and is being brought in by the police in a police van , and the van is involved in an accident. This man loses an

MR. GUZANA: Does this seek to protect the officer who issues the warrant , because he must make certain that the warrant is valid in all respects? I can understand a policeman arresting someone without a warrant but why should you protect the officer who issues the warrant when he should see to it that the warrant is correctly made out? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is not protecting the person who issues the warrant but the person who serves it. MR . GUZANA: Does that not, by implication , protect the police department , because the citizen would normally bring an action against the policeman and against the department? Now you are protecting them.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The position is suppose you claim damages , you have got to prove for instance that the policeman wrongfully and maliciously arrested you, and this policeman might well put up a defence that he acted in good faith, believing the warrant to be regular. How can you get over that in any way? MR. GUZANA: Now that is a matter of proof in court. I am speaking to the provision here which seems to give immunity altogether. It seems to indicate that a policeman can plead section 30, making it impossible for the citizen to recover any damages. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In any case it is quite evident that if the person was not the issuer of the warrant you cannot sue that person.

MR. GUZANA: You can sue him jointly with the issuer of the warrant, is that not so? This seems to give him absolute immunity. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is only the policeman who is immune. you can sue the person who issues the warrant. MR . GUZANA: I see

that is all right.

Clause 30 put and agreed to. Clause 31 put and agreed to.

On Clause 32 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This section,

arm or leg - what is his position? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It says there "unless the person is so conveyed or makes use thereof in, or in the interests of, the performance of the functions of the Government " . I think that person is protected .

MR. GUZANA : There is a proviso that the provisions of this section shall not affect the liability of a member of the force who wilfully causes the loss or damage. This proviso settles liability on a member of the police force who wilfully brings about injury , but implied there is that the Government is also protected . Now why should the Government be protected? Here the Goverment says that if the policeman acts wilfully and does something which results in an accident then he is, as it were, personally liable . I do not mind the responsibility for damages being sorted out between the policeman and his Department, but the public should be able to proceed against both the police officer and his Department. You see, I have been injured in the accident and I want to proceed against the policeman who was driving the car and also against his Department . I should be able to recover from the Department and the policeman jointly and severally. They (the policeman and the Department) may well sort out the question of whether or not the policeman wilfully caused this injury and if the Department finds that the policeman wilfully caused this accident then the Department should recover from the policeman . But the issue between the policeman and the Department should not affect the aggrieved person . What will be the position, for instance , where the policeman is killed also in the accident , am I debarred from recovering? His estate may be worthless. You see, I feel that the public should have its right of action against the policeman and his Department irrespective of whether the policeman acted wilfully and caused the injury, otherwise people might have an empty judgment against a policeman . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I think the first thing we have to do here is to correct the word "effect" . It should be " affect" . Now reading this , I think this proviso applies to the whole section. Supposing a policeman meets the hon. Mr. Guzana who is hitch-hiking on the road, and he might have a grudge against him and Mr. Guzana asks for a lift. He gives him a lift and inside he says : I have got him now and he wilfully causes an accident. I think this section will not protect such a policeman . That is the first thing I want to say, but I think this proviso does not protect the Government from being liable for those people who were in the vehicle in the interests of the Government.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On the part of the policeman? MR. GUZANA: Yes , what will be the position then? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There will be no claim if he merely asks for a lift.

MR. GUZANA: Third party? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think we are dealing here with the Government. The third party can see to its own defence.

Clause 32 put and agreed to. On Clause 33 MR. GUZANA: I take it here that at those trials policemen will be able to have representation? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is provided for. Put and agreed to.

Clauses 34 and 35 put and agreed to. The whole Bill, as amended, put and agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Transkei Police Bill , as amended, has been passed by this House in committee.

our soil. I think there are four essentials in the process of stopping soil erosion a proper planning of arable allotments; and to consider whether or not there will be sufficient water in the residential areas and whether it will be possible to build dams in the grazing area. As far as I know the first essential is to find out whether there will be water available in the residential areas. The next step will be to so arrange the dwellings as to be in the vicinity of a stream or where a borehole could be established. We have attempted to find out whether people will have sufficient water but we could not make any progress in this respect because the planning of the residential areas could not be completed. I want the House to find out that the first essential is the stopping of soil erosion , and thereafter the question of the availability of water can be tackled. I can see no objection to people being placed in the vicinity of a stream so that they could use the stream while arrangements are being made for the siting of a borehole or other methods being made available. I know there is this hardship but it is being tackled by those whose duty it is to rehabilitate the soil . There is a feeling that windmills are not quite effective , and arrangements are afoot to use other methods . I suggest that the House should be patient and see what the authorities concerned are going to do in the matter, so that those who favour rehabilitation should have the work carried on . An hon . member mentioned clinics which he suggests could be established in the rehabilitated areas . The House must understand, however, that the erection of clinics is not the concern of people who are in charge of rehabilitation measures. The clinics will follow rehabilitation and they will be established in accordance with the planning for the residential areas. The tribal authorities , in consultation with the Govemment, should regard the matter of the establishment of clinics as their own responsibility. He also men-

དྲ།

tioned the great distance which sometimes occurs between a residential area and an established school. Here again the building of schools is not the concem of the rehabilitation officials . There is a department to see to school matters and there again consultation should be between the tribal authorities and the Department of Education. If there is any difficulty you already have an example in the area of Western Pondoland.

pes

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The third reading will take place tomorrow, Mr. Chairman. SUSPENSION OF REHABILITATION SCHEME. The debate was resumed . MR . M.H. CANCA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the remarks of the hon . Mr. Sihele when he opposed the motion of the hon . member for Maluti , Mr. Zibi, to suspend the rehabilitation scheme. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , just a point of order, but that is not what the hon. Mr. Zibi said. He said it must be suspended until it is completed in areas where it has already been started. The impression is being made that Mr. Zibi is opposing rehabilitation and he is not . I think we must be fair to him. MR. CANCA : I thank the Leader of the Opposition for correcting me. The mover suggests the suspension of the scheme until the rehabilitation already undertaken has been completely done. My contention is that if this were to be accepted then rehabilitation of the whole country would take a long time , which means that by the time the unrehabilitated areas are reached they will have reached a stage where they are beyond improvement. Let us consider essentials in the rehabilitation of

Z

2 2

座

MR. GUZANA: Yes , I concede that but here is a man who has offered him a lift and the vehicle is involved in an accident. The operative word seems to be "wilfully" . Supposing an accident does occur and there is no intention ...

MR. L.T. MAZWI : What do you understand by rehabilitation? MR. CANCA: I am not going to waste my time Speaking with small rats. MR .MAZWI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman ... MR . CANCA : The hon . Mr. Zibi remarked that no reasonable person would oppose rehabilitation. MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chaimman , I would like the hon. member to withdraw the words "small rat" .

THE CHAIRMAN : Why?

clos MR . MAZWI : He says I am a rat. THE CHAIRMAN : No , he did not say you are a rat.

des MR. CANCA: Mr. Chairman , I was just saying that the hon . member for Maluti said that no reasonable person would oppose rehabilitation. In this

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he was supported by the hon. Mr. Nick Nogcantsi from Tabankulu. He also said that reasonable persons would never oppose any measures which aim at stopping soil erosion . I want to take up these statements because some of the members of the Opposition are constantly opposing rehabilitation . I am very sorry that the hon . member for Tabankulu is away today because he is one who has been constantly opposed to rehabilitation . However, I am very glad that these words came from him and I am glad he has changed his attitude . I think that the people from his area will welcome what he said . Hon . members , the important thing is that most of the people's representatives who come here do not do their work. They do not give advice to the people as to how they can get privileges if they have their areas rehabilitated . The hon . member for Maluti complained of stock limitation . He also complained of certain regulations operating between rehabilitated areas and which place hardships in the way of the residents . I will refer him to what was said by the hon . the Minister of Agriculture last year about the limitation of stock and the breaking of regulations, castration of bulls , and so on. You will find the speech on page 188 of the Hansard, where mention is made of location committees in rehabilitated areas which should place the complaints of the people before the officers in charge of those measures and these complaints will receive attention . The trouble is that the representatives of the people , as I have already pointed out, do not live with the people, nor do they give advice to the people . They therefore should not come to the Govemment to ask for a temporary suspension of the measures in order that they should get these privileges . They should advise people as to what method to adopt in order to approach the Department to get what they want. I have an article here which is a complaint of the residents of the Maluti region , to the effect that their representatives do not live among them and therefore they cannot contact them. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. CANCA: It says : "We are sorry that we have no representative in the Legislative Assembly who lives with us . There is only one and even that goes away to work. They would 9000 (Interjections) 3000 but they are most of the time away on the Rand " . (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : making too much noise .

Order,

please .

You

are

which have commenced rehabilitation should be completed before other locations are forced to accept it. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Nobody is forced to accept it. THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF ZULU The object of the motion is that those locations which have accepted the scheme should be completed first . There is always talk by the Government side that Fingoland has been completely rehabilitated , but I can tell you that the work has not been completed altogether there. It has been said that Nqamakwe has completed its rehabilitation but if you go to certain locations you will find that they are not completely rehabilitated. I mention the name of one location , Nomaheya, in Nqamakwe which is said to have been completely rehabilitated but it is not so. Dakana also has not been completed. If you go to Butterworth, when you get to Toleni location you will find that the work is not complete . In Ntulo location the fencing has not been finished. The important thing is that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture admits that the locations are not complete and the reason is that the Government is forcing the other locations to accept rehabilitation .

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : forced? Where do you get that?

Who

is

being

CHIEF ZULU : It is said that these locations have been fenced in but if the stock jumps over the stock wall at night they will be found trespassing on the land and also the sheep and goats . How has the fencing been done if it is said these locations have been fenced? I am trying to show that those on that side are " good boys " . The people have been interested because they said that the fencing should be done well and now the " good boys" put them in gaol . (Interjections ) This fencing causes disharmony in the locations . If a person stands up and says that something has been done in a wrong way and he tries to put it right he is arrested by one of the " good boys " . No committees have been formed in the locations and therefore people do not know where to send their complaints.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE point.

MR . CANCA: Mr. Chairman , I have only this to say · the representatives of the people should inform the people of methods by which they can get privileges and also to which Department to refer their requests . (Interjections)

Keep to the

CHIEF ZULU : That is why the hon . the Minister of Agriculture does not want to send some of his juniors to go and investigate what is happening in the rehabilitated areas . I am very glad the hon. Minister is in the Assembly so that he can listen to what I say. There is no water in these rehabilitated locations and as a result the cattle die. The reason why this motion has to be put forward is for the purpose of getting those locations which have started rehabilitation completely finished first.

THE CHAIRMAN : Just a minute , please, hon. member. The noise you are making interferes with interpreters a great deal. If I wished , I could delay you here because I have been given the power to close the debate until tomorrow, so those who are desirous of going home must speak to those who do not want to go home.

THE CHAIRMAN : Before we adjoum I want to warn the House that I will be bound to curtail the number of speakers in this discussion because of the noise. It is quite clear that you are not interested in discussing this , but you just want to make a noise.

CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman , I stand up to destroy those who have spoken against this both the hon . member who moved the amendment and the others who have spoken against it. What the hon. member from Maluti said is that those locations

The debate was adjourned . -326-

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a short statement before the disposal vote is taken and the motion thrown away, as it deserves to be. (Laughter) I will make these few remarks just to enlighten the House on the true position of soil reclamation as it stands today. If I had been here the day the motion was moved I would certainly have saved the House a lot of trouble , for I would have advised the House to postpone this motion until the Bill that I am going to move this session had been through the House . I can assure the House that the Bill will be before the House on Monday morning. The Bill makes provision for greater consultation between the Department and the people and will certainly eliminate most of the pinpricks that used to be attributed to soil reclamation . Since I have taken this opportunity then , I would like to place before the House a few facts to dispel any untoward notion about rehabilitation. The motion seeks to put a fullstop at different periods of reclamation. It does not say where we should stop and there is little reason why we should stop at all , and I would like to point out to the House that there is no stopping in soil reclamation. It is just like a man who has built a road perhaps , and after he has made a road he must make the drains and at periodic intervals he must also gravel the road and do anything else that is necessary. It may just be that the day he has finished a great storm arrives and it sweeps away all that soil in the shortest possible time by the shortest possible route to the sea. And yet that man declared that he had finished his work. The same applies to soil reclamation . I would rather liken the mover to that great fool in the Bible who said: Now I have rid my lands and so I may sleep and forget everything. I shall ask the hon . member for Maluti to continue the quotation for me and tell us what actually happened to that man. Now, Mr. Chairman , reclamation of the soil is a gradual process and you can never say that you have actually finished. You will see in the Bill that I promised you that a great amount of work lies ahead, not only in reclamation but in maintaining the reclamation works and also that there are different stages and those stages are not done by one and the same team. The first part of course , after reclamation has been accepted by a locality or administrative area, is planning, taking of statistics ; residential areas are demarcated; and then of course there is always constant consultation between the people and the Department. Also there is the actual development that is, the putting up of the fence and the stripping of the land in grass strips . Now the team that was planning, when it has finished its work, does not do any more and so it goes to the next location which has to be planned and the fencing in that location is done by somebody else . Then there is a team which sees to the boreholes and when that team has finished they go on to the next location, and so there is no overlapping of duties. What I want to know is what the mover thinks these people must do when they have finished one location. Must they sit and fold their arms until Doomsday? (Interjections) It is their practice when they do not want to hear something to interject. Now there is a separate vote for fencing and for dams and for

from hut compensation it cannot be applied in making dams ; and if any money is left over from fencing, it cannot be used for anything else anywhere. All that has to be done with it is to be returned to the treasury. Now all these things have to be done in one locality because that money cannot be used even to expedite what was lagging behind. (Interjections) Now, Mr. honourable Separatist Church Minister, if you have got your congre gation of fifty full members , do you close the door and say you want no more until these people go to Heaven? (Laughter) You don't want any new converts? - because that is just what you say. You say we must reclaim one area... OPPOSITION MEMBERS: And finish it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And finish it, that's right . No converts ! You must close the door until all those are holy and can go to Paradise. We preach soil conservation and what surprises me is that the mover's location is not even rehabilitated . He is making no attempt to have it reclaimed and you listen to him when he says you should stop where you are, and do not even ask him whether his location has been reclaimed. I was in Matatiele and I was interested in this motion and so I went to look for his kraal and I could not because they said the man lived on the Rand. I asked him whether they had sent him to ask that reclamation should be stopped in so far as their area is concerned and they said they had not seen him for the last ten years.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : You went to the wrong place He does not live there. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , Mr. Chairman , I might give credit to the House for the tone it has adopted in debating this motion . It is only a few die-hards as usual and two of them are at present in Grahamstown , and I hope the hon. member for Maluti who wants things to be done in pieces , and I hope that no more criminals will operate until those two retum. But that hon. member for Maluti is quite safe in the present circumstances because he could influence his location not to accept rehabilitation and then sit there in ignorance and darkness forever. We shall do nothing to him although we have the power to step in, but we shall never invoke that power until he is the last location to be done in the Transkei , when we have nothing else to do. He is forgetting that applications are coming in daily and the Department cannot in fact cope with them . Applications are coming from Eastern Pondoland . I had two this morning. I went to a place which was very badly eroded and I mentioned to the people my observations when I was accompanied by the hon. Mr. Mda and I afterwards spoke to the member of Parliament for that area, Mr. Kolisi le Nota . I called him into my office and we had a cup of tea and we discussed matters and the House will be very pleased to hear his reaction - that he gave me the green light to go into the location and he assured me that I would get hearty co-operation. Now , supposing just half a dozen of you blockheads on the other side would emulate the hon . member and take seriously things which are very serious , and speak to your people in the same way he has done - what a difference it would make the Transkei ! I want to tell the House that the Government is not enforcing this at all. What would be the point of that? After all, we are looking after your interests and what has been done in other places can be done in all the

hut compensation , and if any money if left over

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220 CO

1

i

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fat and there will be plenty of water. Now we ask where all these promises are that they make . Would it not be wise for the Government to carry out this scheme in one place completely so that when that one area is properly rehabilitated then the Govemment can say to all the people: Here is a place that is completely rehabilitated. We think your aim is just to fence in the stock. The fool of a Minister who has just been speaking knows that in team you have different players, like in football you have wings , goalie, full-back and so on , and in cricket you have the batsman and the bowler, but they are all members of one team. You fence in the place and then stop . That reminds me of the places we know as zoos in Cape Town and other cities. In the zoo the lion , for example , would be given meat, water and all its requirements so that it would feel quite happy and satisfied in that enclosure, but if you look right deep into its eyes you will find it is fed up with the whole arrangement. It wants to go and destroy that buck for itself it does not want

areas. I was interested to hear a catalogue of things still to be done in the Nqamakwe district by the hon . Chief Zulu. I was particularly pleased because I had tried to contact him three times and he refused, when I was trying to get this information . If he should give me another indulgence to go and see these places I will be only too glad to attend to them. We have our officials who try to help you

1

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as best they can. I wonder why you have not reported this deficiency to them? You only bring it here when you want to stop other people from following the correct lines . Well, hon. members , you must be realistic . If you do not want it, don't take it until such time as the Department will see fit to come in and do it, just as I have told you that there is a Bill coming which will contain those provisions . Now supposing this motion were put through and the soil at Rode is so badly eroded that I promised them I would do something, but then nothing can be done until all the other areas have been completed. What will the people think of me? It is the same everywhere. That matter is urgent. Every storm takes away hundreds of thousands of tons of valuable soil. I wonder if the hon. Mr. Nota would support that idea that I do his location in twenty years' time , which is only one instance. There are applications that are coming in all the time by the dozen , as I told you, and it is a pathetic sight to see cattle dying near the fence of a rehabilitated area because they want the grass on the other side of the fence. The same with the

all these things to be done for it . Now you want to put these semi-educated agricultural officers and rangers and so on when the people would much rather do these things for themselves . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just wait for the Bill. You will see it is going to put all these things right.

MR. ZIBI : If you will take full note of the term "rehabilitation" , it means helping the soil of the land to become what it used to be. Does fencing ever bring that about? What the people object to is the method that you bring in these rehabilitation schemes , particularly the hon . Minister. You give promises but you do not fulfil any of those promises because you are aware of what you are harvesting as a result of the work you are undertaking . While you were speaking there was nobody who said he was opposed to this motion because you are well aware that the people who have accepted this are very dissatisfied because you merely put up a fence and none of the other promises have come about. This is made worse by a location being moved from its original place and the school is left behind and the children have to travel forwards

headman at Qweqwe, just outside town here. Fortunately for the cattle there the man who stopped the people at Qweqwe from rehabilitating will probably languish in gaol for many years to come. I wonder what is going to be the fate of two men still in the House who went about the country preaching against rehabilitation - the hon. Mr. Raziya and Mr. Lufefeni. I have got a cutting here in the Umthunywa of their report. They advised the people how to evade the Government's overtures until one headman stood up to ask what they were doing, what they had done for the people; and the members said they could not do anything because the Government was in the majority, and the wise headman asked why they kept talking against rehabilitation . I must tell you that the soil now belongs to you. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, it is a pity that a Minister who should lead the House along the right lines should speak as he has spoken . I will refer last to what he said, and will first reply to the other members , This motion does not in any way say that rehabilitation should come to an end. All we say is that it should be suspended. This is like a man going to plough his land and sow the seed. He leaves the land without harrowing it or watering it and he hopes to have a good harvest. Then he goes on to another plot and ploughs and sows and hopes for a good crop. All we are asking for is that first the land should be harrowed and watered and then the harvest reported to the people after it has been reaped . You are not helping us, you are destroying us. I am referring to the hon. Ministers and I would like to say that if any of them carry out the policy of the Government properly things would be all right. You are aware of the hardships of the people in the reserves. When we refer to this scheme we are not talking about different groups and committees concerned with rehabilitation . All we say is : Get on with rehabilitation . Under this scheme you make promises to the people that you will have clinics , the womenfolk will be happy , the cattle will be

and backwards several miles . Now I shall reply to the hon. Minister in this manner. I want to throw an open challenge to the hon . the Minister of Agriculture that this afternoon he must register a call to Mount Fletcher and we will go to Tinana, Isilindini and Upper Tsitsana locations this weekend and I want to show him that location which is my location and which is rehabilitated . Unfortunately he told, I won't say lies because I am not as uncultured as he is, but I will say untruths . We will call meetings and he will talk to those people there. He says people must be realistic and it is a pity that a man of his calibre should come into the House like this and speak all the untruths he has spoken today. (Intersections) He has referred to a great fool , and now I want to refer to the biggest fool of the Transkei Ministry , who allows himself to be used as a cipher. If he had any sense of decency he would allow the hon. the Chief Minister to have changed him round with Mr. Mabandla who at least has some knowledge of agriculture, unlike the fool that we have there . My request is: Let us not deceive people lest we come to loggerheads with our electorate. Let us tellthem the truth. Let the Government complete any area so that when we go to the people we can say to them : This is a very good scheme in this way or that. I come for-

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bers, saying that if you have members of a church and someone wants to come in , you must not tell him to get out because you have enough members. All we say is that as soon as we have got those converts , have them baptized and confirmed, and when they are full members admit them. (Interjections ) The hon . members will note that I am replying an eye to the Minister in the language he used for an eye, that is my policy. Now to come to an end I would like these hon . members to indicate to us by their vote what we must tell the people about this rehabilitation scheme.

tunately from a very sensible region who elected three members who live in the urban areas and who are well aware of the difficulties of the labouring class. We are not going to discuss the pros and cons of rehabilitation . All we ask is that rehabilitation be suspended until the other areas have been completed . The sponsors of this wanted relief to the Transkei and unfortunately rehabilitation is not the answer because the only result there is , practically speaking, is the release of more land. (Interjections) Anyone who says that will be regarded as a fool. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Please give the interpreter a chance. You are making too much noise.

THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. E.G. Sihele. I will put the question that the words proposed to be deleted should stand part of the motion .

MR. ZIBI: In one word, therefore , I ask you to vote so that I can go and tell the electorate what you say. I have told the people that rehabilitation is a very good measure but it must be carried out completely in one area so that the people will be convinced by what they can see in that area. The hon. Minister gave a good example of church mem-

The question was negatived by 35 votes to 45 after a division as follows : -

AYES

NOES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Or lando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane gous Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Dali wonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George: Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdled le Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana ChiefHardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayi se Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Leh ana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. C.S. Mda.

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamini Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr.

Tolikana Mangala Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Walter Candulwandle Singata Gordon Dana Cromwell Diko Mkatali Walter Madikizela Sizakele Caledon Mda Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota. 2. Z. Chemane.

2. J. Ntola.

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T

The words proposed to be substituted by 45 votes to 35 .

substituted are

powers . In actual fact he assumes the position of a dictator. If he disagrees with one of his subjects over a certain issue he can have him deported and his home demolished, if he is able to satisfy the Minister as to the necessity to pursue this drastic course . As I have already stated there is no freedom of expression or assembly for the people of the Transkei under this Proclamation . Mr. Chairman , if ten or more people are found assembled without a permit they can find themselves in serious trouble . Clause 20 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights reads : "Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association " , but the people of the Transkei are virtually kept under a state of emergency and thus deprived of this freedom for the last six years . The Broederbond , Verwoerdian Republican Government has one idea in mind in keeping this Territory under this state of emergency . They are aware that the overwhelming majority of the people of the Transkei are against this Bantustan concept which is backed by the Broel erbond separate development policy , and so this Proclamation serves to silence all opposition from the voters of the Transkei . Mr. Chairman , I wish to remind the members of the House that there was a time when the chief was a symbol of unity among the people of South Africa.

The motion as amended was carried by 45 votes to 35. SUSPENSION OF PROCLAMATION R.400.

MR . O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the motion as it stands: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of suspending forthwith the notorious Proclamation R.400 of 1960.” The motion seeks the suspension forthwith of the notorious Proclamation . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Hydrahead!

MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, let us have this undesirable element in the House removed. This Proclamation is worse than a thorn in the flesh to the Transkeian citizen , that is why, as representatives of the voters of these Territories , we are bringing a motion for the third time in succession which aims at the suspension of this devilish proclamation. With a view to enlightening the members of this House as to the diabolical nature of this Proclamation I shall read to the House one or two of its nefarious clauses . Sub-section 12 (1 ) of this Proclamation reads: "It shall be competent for any chief authorized by the Minister either generally or in respect of a particular Native (a) to order without prior notice to any Native concemed a notice to remove with the members of his

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Before the advent of Ahrenstein .

household and any livestock he may have from the place within the area of jurisdiction of such chief within such area either permanently or for such period as specified by such chief. " Paragraph (b) reads : "To cause the demolition of any hut or dwelling owned by or occupied by a Native referred to in paragraph (a) or members of his household situate at the place from which he has been ordered to remove without incurring any liability to any person for compensation of the value of any such hut or dwelling." Mr. Chairman , I sincerely hope that every member who was listening while I quoted the two clauses of this nefarious Proclamation was able to see in them the utter disregard and contempt for human rights . South Africa is a member of the General Assembly of the United Nations which drew up the famous Universal Declaration of Human Rights on the 10th December, 1948. Clause No. 9 of the Declaration of Human Rights reads : " No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile." It must be bome in mind that it is a Minister of the Republic of South Africa that is responsible for the maintenance of this state of emergency in the Transkei from the 30th November , 1960 , until the present day under Proclamation R.400 , with its satanic clauses , and yet the Government of which this Minister is a member professes to uphold the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights . When the draft Constitution of the present Transkei Bantustan was presented to the Transkei people for their criticism the Transkeian citizens were not at all free to express their views for fear of being victimized under Proclamation 400. There is still no freedom of expression or assembly for African citizens in the Transkei . Under this -Proclamation the chief has been given immeasurable

MR . MPONDO : To suit his purpose the White man decided to destroy the power of the chief and in this he was largely successful. Again in 1959 we find the Broederbond, under the Nationalist Government , introducing the notorious Bantu Authorities Act which was the cause of the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland. It gives the chief dictatorial powers over his subjects and it was passed only for the convenience of the White man. Mr. Chairman, hon . members, I want to give the hon. chiefs this warning: (Interjections ) Without even knowing what the waming is about they start mumbling. As long as there is no freedom of expression amongst their subjects there can never be peace in their areas of jurisdiction . This Proclamation bulldozes the chief against his own people and in the end a revolt against his dictatorship will become a reality. To save that most undesirable situation, members of the House , we should consider the wisdom of suspending this dangerous Proclamation . Mr. Chairman , I do not think there is any chief in this House who desires that his people should always live in a state of fear. When the representatives of these people are doing their best to remove undesirable thoms then the chiefs must take note of that. There are people who think that Proclamation 400 makes it impossible for people to be hooligans in the Transkei . We are made to believe that if people are muzzled and are not given free expression of their opinions there will be no revolt. It is on that account that we say we must not wait until it is too late , but we should ask for this notorious Proclamation to be removed. With those words I appeal to you to accept this motion. MR . W. LUFEFENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to second the motion that has just been moved. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the motion be amended by deleting all the words after "Assembly" and sub-

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of order.

stituting therefor the words: "Proclamation

No.

R.400

safeguards

the

THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to wam you that this case is still pending and I do not think we have a right to take it as a case that has been decided, so please keep to the amendment.

internal security and the peaceful administration of the Transkei and should be retained ."

Mr. Chairman, you have heard the views of the last speaker saying that if the people are not allowed to act as they desire and be allowed to remove this Proclamation then they will act against their chiefs. That alone shows that there was cause for the promulgation of this law. You have heard the speech of one of the members here this afternoon when he said that the young piglets running about in the mud and mire stand up and say: Increase our little bit of mud. It is clear that he does not

CHIEF MAJEKE : I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I am still on a point of order to ask the speaker to withdraw the statement that Chief Sabata is a murderer.

THE CHAIRMAN : He said it said so in the newspaper. CHIEF MAJEKE : The paper did not say so.

want any more rights to be conferred on us . You heard the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi speaking in this House when he said that if the chiefs are not being followed by their people it would be better if the chiefs would die rather than that the people should how will a die. Put this into your minds now person be able to carry out this killing? How can he kill his own chief unless he is revolting against the Government? If people hold views like that why should a proclamation not be made to render it impossible for them to do such things? Some people hold that this law is out of date and that people do not kill one another now, but at this moment a case is going on , I believe , of people who were planning to destroy the life of another person. Now that we are discussing it, it is known that when cases are being conducted wehear rumours that plans are being carried out to destroy important people. Now while the case is being conducted the name of a Paramount Chief of the Tembus was

THE CHAIRMAN: Do you withdraw? MR. SIHELE: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman . The people who are bringing forward this motion surprise me because this motion is a recurring decimal in this House. It is constantly being defeated because we understand the Proclamation to be in the interests and for the protection of the people of the Transkei . While we are hoping that things are coming right, incidents occur which persuade us that the Proclamation ought to be retained. At Engcobo there are many people who have been murdered and nobody knows who the murderers are. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. SIHELE: The hon. Mr. Majija was also attacked recently. That alone convinces us we

mentioned as being involved in the plot. This is a painful matter. Why should such an important person be involved in a plot against the life of his own brothers? True enough , anybody might believe such a thing for this reason · that we think he has no love for his own brothers for, as we are in this House, there is not one of his brothers who is a true son of his father. Does this mean that his father has not had a son who is going to be chief? These very things that you say you do not like are the very things that urge people to go on doing things like that. We want to place them on the table. We want the people to know why it is that the life of the chief of the Tembus is being threatened. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please come back to the amendment.

should retain this Proclamation longer. The people will be destroyed. One other important thing is that some people hold that in one area the Proclamation should be retained and in the other areas it must be done away with . It is quite clear therefore that he does not understand how the Govemment runs things because a law must be general and not only for certain areas. Further, in Fingoland they do not have chiefs and they are a problem even in the Assembly here. (Interjections) They are not used to living with their chiefs in an orderly manner and that is why they want all the freedom . Why do you want to destroy the chiefs? Why do you want to murder our chiefs? (Interjections) He says we are not talking about the chiefs , but the mover of the motion said the reason was that it was the chiefs who remove the people from their areas of residence, and that means that the person they really do not want to see is the chief who carries out the law in his own area. The sum total of all that I have said is that people ought to live under laws and regulations and not just as they want to live.

MR . SIHELE: Mr. Chairman , now that we are talking about Proclamation 400 and that this Proclamation makes it impossible for such murderers .... (Interjections) I did not say so · it is the newspaper reports which have said that. I would like to make this perfectly clear and I will not move from this.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: He didn't say all laws must be removed. You must do away with R.400.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, after you put the speaker right and called him to order he went on to say "a murderer like the Chief of the Tembus" .

MR. SIHELE: The hon . member says they must not be under Proclamation 400 but they are very well aware that there has been cause for the in-

MR. SIHELE : Proclama tion 400 prohibits murderers and among the murderers is Nkosiyane who invited the communists to come and murder

troduction of this Proclamation and the difficulty has been that it has been found that such a proclamation was necessary as it could not come into existence unless there was cause. The people to whom he referred , saying that their houses will be destroyed, are people who ignore the orders of the chief, and therefore such people are forced

someone . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman , I raised a point

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business committee to find accommodation for this

by law to remove to areas where they are unwilling to go . One hon. member is always referring to

motion on the agenda paper. That committee will meet immediately after the adjoumment today to consider the agenda for next week.

Qitsi where the chief has been killed . We are doing all we can to stop such killings. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : hear the speaker.

Order,

please. We cannot

MR. SIHELE : I am saying this because you have raised the question . Mr. Chairman , I will sit down but I hope that all the members and the chiefs will support me when I say that Proclamation R.400 is here to safeguard the interests of the Transkei. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , I want to inform the House that unless members behave better I shall be obliged to take drastic measures. At the same time you are wasting your own time. I had an interview with some ofyour leaders in connection with the speakers who will speak on these motions and we agreed on three speakers , but I am not bound by that

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 14th June, I intend to introduce a Bill to provide for the conservation of the soil , the veld and water supplies, the improvement and control of livestock, the eradication of weeds and the development of agriculture generally in the Transkei , and to provide for other incidental matters. CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Co-operative Societies Act Amendment Bill, 1966, and I now move that the Bill be read a first time . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second.

because I see now that you are determined to make this noise. Tomorrow I will give only three speakers a chance. Now I want a seconder to that amendment.

Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second , Mr. Chairman.

The Bill was read a first time.

The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I propose that the Bill be read a second time on Monday, 13th June.

a.m. on

Friday, 10th June, 1966. TRANSKEI POLICE BILL : THIRD READING. FRIDAY, 10TH JUNE, 1966 . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Police Bill be read now a third time.

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

Agreed to. ANNOUNCEMENTS. The Bill was read a third time. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I lay upon the table the report of the select committee on Motion No. 8 by the hon. member for Maluti , Rev. B. S. Rajuili .

TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members you are all aware of the fact that this House during its last session passed the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 which later was confirmed by the State President and was promulgated as Act No. 4 of 1965 on the 11th February this year.

Mr. Chairman , I also have to announce that in view of the Soil Conservation Bill the Govemment has fixed the day of adjourning this House as the 22nd June instead of the 17th June. It is a very important Bill and I think we should give it some days. Mr. Chairman , the hon . the Leader of the Opposition has approached me in connection with Motion 32 in the name of the hon . member for Fingoland, Mr. O.O. Mpondo , who has just received a message from home that one of his family members is indisposed and he will be unable to reply to this motion today. We have agreed that the motion should be postponed until next week and that we should continue with the other motions . I hope , Sir, that will receive your concurrence .

The present amendment Bill which is now before the House is not a contentious matter at all but is introduced to remove certain administrative difficulties that have arisen in connection with the implementation of Act No. 4 of 1965. I will now proceed to deal briefly with each of the proposed clauses of the Bill, after which I am sure that the purpose and scope of the Bill will be perfectly clear to all honourable members.

Since clauses 1 and 2 of the Bill actually deal with the same problem I will deal with them simultaneously . The two clauses are amendments of the present sections 3 and 6 of the said Transkei Authorities Act and are necessary because of the fact that section 3 may be interpreted as allowing

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , may we know when the report of the select committee that has just been tabled will be dealt with? THE CHIEF MINISTER : I leave that to the

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insertion of clause 3 of this Bill.

a chief, in whose area of jurisdiction two or more tribal authorities are established , to be the head of all the authorities in his area which , of course, was never the intention. Such an interpretation will mean that all the authorities will have only one head because no provision exists whereby two heads or a head and an acting head may be appointed for the same authority. Furthermore one chief cannot possibly be the head of more than one authority and still manage the affairs of all properly. Different tribal authorities might for instance wish to meet or hold functions on the same date . With one head for more than one authority this is impossible and may be the cause of much inconvenience . Such chief must further necessarily reside outside the areas of jurisdiction of all but one of the authorities under him. To be a leader and to work as such for the development of his people , I am sure the honourable members will agree with me that it is necessary for the head of an authority to be present to be able to perceive and appreciate the problems in the area of such authority . Clause 1 of this Bill was therefore directed at the limitation of a chief to the headship of one tribal authority. I may mention that this was the position in terms of Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 .

As regards clause 4 of the Bill the position is that the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965 was only promulgated on the 11th February , 1966. The period of office of members and councillors of tribal , community, district and regional authorities had however, already expired on 31st December, 1965. The tribal and regional authorities are now being reconstituted in terms of Act No. 4 of 1965. For the interim period , however, that is from the time of their disestablishment on the 31st December , 1965, until the time when they are reconstituted in terms of the new Act it was necessary that such authorities should continue to function , otherwise there would have been an administrative stand-still . Instructions were conse-

You may have formed the idea that clause 1 is in effect also a limitation of the areas of jurisdiction and of the authority of such chiefs - this is not so. To do so would be contrary of custom and to one of the main principles of the policy of this Govemment. Section 6 of the Transkei Authorities Act is therefore also being amended to provide for paramount chiefs and chiefs to attend , to take part in the discussions and preside at any meeting of any tribal authority in their areas of jurisdiction. This principle which is embodied in clause 2 ofthe Bill is , Mr. Chairman , in full agreement with custom as all present here will, I am convinced, agree. A similar provision was also contained in section 103 of the old Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 . As regards clause 3 of the Bill , Mr. Chairman , the present position is that all the assets and rights of district authorities other than those connected with dipping services accrued in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 (Act No. 4 of 1965) to the Government of the Transkei . This provision , however, appears to be inequitable as it was found at the disestablishment of the district authorities that certain of these authorities had various other funds collected by the people of the districts for purposes such as clinics , show buildings , school purposes , etc. It seems wrong that these funds should now revert to the Transkeian Revenue Fund and the intention is that such funds should be taken over by either tribal authorities or regional authorities , and in certain cases special Trust Funds may even be created, depending in each case on the nature and purpose of the fund. The intention is that such funds should still be applied in the areas where they were collected and for the purpose for which they were collected . At present the only way to dispose of such funds would be by way of appropriation by the Legislative Assembly in terms of section 53 of the Constitution Act. This procedure is too cumbersome to ensure the effective administration of the assets and the continuation of the services . The accurate value of the assets and rights of district authorities is not known at this stage but cannot be very large. It is therefore considered advisable to provide for the disposal of such assets and rights by the

quently issued to Magistrates to the effect that the authorities should go on as previously constituted because certain necessary services had to be provided. To regularise this position clause 4 extends the period of office of members of district authorities to 11th February , 1966 , the date on which they were abolished, and that of other authorities to the date on which they were or will be reconstituted in terms of the new Act . This clause will therefore , if adopted, validate all administrative acts of tribal and regional authorities for the period since 31st December, 1965 until they are reconstituted in terms of the new Act and of district authorities for the period up till their disestablishment on the 11th February, 1966 . Clause 5 is being introduced on the recommendation of your Committee on Public Accounts . The position is briefly that due to a lack of trained secretaries , tribal and community authorities were in the past unable to comply with the provisions of Government Notice No. 1560 of 1957 in terms whereof complicated final accounts and financial statements had to be furnished by the authorities in a certain manner. The Sessional Committee on Public Accounts consequently resolved that "the substantial failure to comply with the law regarding tribal and community authorities should be condoned by passing, as soon as circumstances permit , of

E

validating legislation ......." . To give effect to this resolution clause 5 of this Bill provides for the Secretary of my Department to prescribe the form and manner in which financial statements should be submitted by the authorities. Such instructions will be issued after full consultation with the Controller and Auditor- General. This has actually already been done. Mr. Chairman I now move that this Bill be read a second time.

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second. MR. G.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I get the impression that this Bill has been brought in because there was some dereliction of duty somewhere. Last year the Assembly rose in June , after it had disposed of the Transkei Authorities Bill and it has been known to the Govemment that the period of existence of authorities terminated on the 31st December, 1965. One wants to askthe question: What happened between June and December to delay the attachment of the State President's signature to the Bantu Authorities Bill, No. 4 of 1965?

T

THE find out.

CHIEF MINISTER :

better. (Laughter)

Go to Pretoria and

MR. GUZANA: The responsibility, in my submission, rests squarely on the shoulders of the hon. the Chief Minister. One cannot say that the State President is to blame. The responsibility therefore must be bome by this Government and we take this opportunity of castigating them for allowing a state of affairs to continue from the 1st January to the 11th February when it could have been avoided by speeding up this Bill . We hope this state of affairs is not repeated again . We therefore will not oppose the validation of acts performed during the period 1st January, 1966, to the time when new authorities are established. I also want to know whether or not the new authorities have been established under Act No. 4 of 1965. I am given to understand that in certain areas authorities established under the 1956

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Would you stand against me in a by-election?

Proclamation are still functioning despite the fact that the Transkei Authorities Act was promulgated on the 11th February, 1966, and now it is almost three or four months thereafter. I am persuaded therefore to believe that administrative machinery is not ticking as well as it should be . ... THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is perfect. ..and we need to pour into MR . GUZANA: this machinery the lubricating oil of criticism from the Opposition. We have no objection to the idea that a head of an authority should reside in the area in which there is that authority, and we want these heads to be personally and directly aware of the problems that arise in the area of their jurisdiction. We take this opportunity therefore to ask the Government to impress upon these heads that meetings should be called regularly as provided for, and that there must be expedition in deciding on matters which are brought before it. At times one is persuaded to believe that members of these authorities go to those meetings with pre-conditioned indisposition for work. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Have you ever attended these meetings?

MR. GUZANA: Well , I do fear, being pint-sized, to collide with a bull dozer from Eastern Pondoland but I can assure the hon. Paramount Chief of my agility and can pass between his legs quite easily. (Laughter) We would like to impress upon the Government that there must be efficiency in these authorities and we would like these authorities to have appointed to them secretaries with a certain amount of education to be able to discharge their duties quickly and diligently. The Government has always insisted that these authorities should have a tribal bias but we would like to point out that this tribal bias should not be overstressed to the disadvantage of efficiency and effective administration. You will have no opposition to this Bill, Sir, but we hope these observations will be taken to heart and passed on to these authorities. I want to sound a note of waming to the hon. the Chief Minister that this side of the House will not be party to validating acts performed illegally again . Who knows what illegal acts were performed during this period, even if the Act was already in operation? We give you the blank cheque, but with a warning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I will just request you to allow me to reply shortly tothe observations made by my hon. friend, the leader of the Opposition. I want to assure this House that the Act was timeously dispatched to Pretoria for signature by the State President, but certain legal queries came from that side for explanation by my Department, and these were not ironed out until late in the year. Now my Department was not responsible for these queries. It was this House that passed the Act, and not my Department. As far as the expedition of the work is concerned, I wish to assure the House that no department in the whole Transkei Government can claim more efficiency than that of the Chief Minister. (Laughter) Now with regard to the authorities which have been established in terms of the Act I wish to assure the House that my Department is doing everything possible to have these established and we were merely delayed by the districts that had to conduct elections. It was not my Department.

MR. GUZANA: I have had opportunity to listen to the deliberations of district authorities • THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about tribal authority meetings? MR. GUZANA: . . . .and if those are very lackadaisical in their attitude to the work, one cannot expect anything better from the local authorities. The hon. the Chief Minister would be amazed to know that I have a fund of knowledge and information gained practically from observation and I do not just talk without the facts. He should be thankful for my generalisation for what came near to the heart of the hon. Minister namely, the Flag Bill was hurried up, but other things seem to be slowing down. We welcome the idea of granting the Paramount Chief the right to attend meetings of authorities in his area of jurisdiction . We welcome it because it is a recognition of the diligence of the paramount chiefs on this side of the House.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about those on this side? MR. GUZANA: As for the paramount chiefs on the Government side, the less said about it the -334-

MR. GUZANA: Now when you are expediting the elections please keep the Information Officers out of it. They are a nuisance. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The districts are controlled by the Department of Justice, not the Chief Minister's Department. The blame cannot be placed on either of the Ministers because the officers in the districts have so much work to do and in one district there are various authorities and the magistrate has to go round the district holding meetings of voters. In any event I wish to assure the House that within the shortest possible time we shall be in a position to promulgate all these authorities in the Official Gazette. Now as regards the meetings of tribal authorities, I want to assure this House that the chiefs and heads of authorities have assumed astonishing efficiency. They are very responsible people and they hold meetings regularly, and I hope the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will take note of that. MR.

GUZANA:

I

watch them

in Mqanduli.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: To prove how efficient they are, I have had requests from the magistrates of the districts that these authorities should control their own funds. MR. GUZANA: You are saying that with your tongue in your cheek.

Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 13th June , 1966.

MONDAY, 13TH JUNE, 1966 The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, Sir, this comes from the bottom of my heart. With regard to the efficiency of these authorities in so far as the secretarial staff is concerned, I wish to assure the House that the Department of Justice is doing everything to frame a bill which will probably affect my hon. friend across the floor as far as the courts are concemed . It is the intention of the Government that all these authorities will be provided with efficient secretaries who have a study of law .... OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER : ... .because in future we would like all these authorities to have jurisdiction and to be courts of record. MR. GUZANA: Will attomeys now appear there? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I cannot promise that attomeys will be allowed to appear in the courts.

MR. GUZANA: Did the Minister of Justice say

so? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We are considering it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am happy that the Opposition is not considering opposing this Bill because it a is straightforward piece of legislation. It shows how a responsible leadership in the persons of the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and my friend, the hon. member for Dalindyebo, Mr. Knowledge Guzana, can influence even the most obdurate minds that we have on the other side. MR. GUZANA: Your compliment always has a sting. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is highly probable that the friends of Ahrenstein are out of the House at present. I thank the Opposition very much for being co-operative. The Bill was read a second time. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the committee stage of the Bill will be on Monday next week. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, in view of the absence of the hon. Mr. Mpondo, instead of taking item 32 on the order paper, we shall take item 34. NR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, much as I am interested in the evolvement of that motion , allow me for certain reasons to withdraw it. Agreed to.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House adjourn until Monday next week. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.

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Prayers were read. The minutes of Friday, 10th June, were taken as read and confrimed.

ANNOUNCEMENT THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to place on the table the report of the Department of Education for the period 1st January to 31st December, 1965.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it has just come to my notice that the motion which was moved and passed by this House the other day on the amendment to the Constitution has been found by the legal advisers to be defective only on points of law. I have therefore decided to request this House to withdraw this motion as it was passed and then we consider this one which I am going to put through formally. It contains no changes at all, except for a few minor points which were found to be defective. I consulted with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition on this matter and we have both agreed that if we put it in this language it will go through without any difficulties. Now, Sir, I give notice to move : (i) that this Assembly considers withdrawing motion No. 2 which was agreed to earlier this session; and (ii) that in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending to the Republican Government that (a) section 25 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 be substituted by the following (1) "The total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time exceed 64 and if any paramount chieftainship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo , Gcaleka, Nyanda, or Qaukeni regional authority area or in any other district, the number of chiefs representing the district affected shall be reduced correspondingly.

(2) Where by reason of the provisions of sub-section ( 1) or in consequence of an increase in the number of chiefs in any district, one or more chiefs in such district are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly, the person or persons so to be excluded shall be determined by secret ballot at a meeting of the chiefs in the district affected to convened by the Chairman of the Assembly; Provided that if no majority can be reached at such meeting a meeting of the paramount chief, if any, and chiefs in the region shall be convened by the

12

Chairman for the purpose of determining the person or persons to be excluded.

TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider the Transkei Authorities Amendment Bill.

(3) Meetings convened in terms of subsection (2) shall be held before candidates for any general election are to be nominated" and

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I Chairman.

(b) that section 26 of the Transkei Constitution Act be substituted by the following: "The 26 districts in the Transkei shall be electoral divisions for the election of the 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters in the various divisions , provided that each district shall have at least one member; and provided further that it shall be permissible for a registered voter in a district to contest the election in any other district situated "" within the same region .' Mr. Chairman, I will leave it to your discretion as to when we can move this amended motion but it is so important that I would request that we go ahead with it immediately. It is not a contentious motion but I request that we go on with it first thing before we do anything else tomorrow. I will make that request to the business committee. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I second the motion and I take it that we are not going to discuss it now, but that there are reasons for these slight emendations and those will be given when we discuss it tomorrow. I just stand up to second the motion and to endorse the urgency of the matter.

second, Mr.

Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this side of the House as indicated at the second reading is not opposing the clauses in this Bill and I think each of the clauses was exhaustively motivated during the second reading speech of the hon. the Chief Minister. We made our comments thereon and we have no further comments to make, and we will co-operate in expediting the passage of the committee stage. Clauses 1 to 6 of the Bill put and agreed to . The whole Bill put and agreed to without amendment. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I beg to report that the Transkei Authorities Amendment Bill, 1966, has been accepted by the committee without amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the third reading of this Bill will be on Tuesday, 14th June, 1966 .

Agreed to. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , the first announcement this morning was the tabling of some report from the Department of Education. May we know whether this report is for the information of this House and, if not, could we request that in future these reports come at a time when we can go into them, if they really purport to be reports for this House.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the report is for the information of the House. I regret the delay in issuing it, but it was due to circumstances beyond my control. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I think all circumstances are within the control of the hon. the Minister of Education. If circumstances beyond his control were responsible for the late tabling of this report I think the circumstances now are within his control to make time available, say perhaps next week, for a discussion of the report. He can request the House to give an hour, for instance, to discuss the report.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I have no objection, provided the business committee can find time. MR . GUZANA : We would like to look into it and there might possibly be matters on which we would like some explanation.

TRANSKEI CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman we have had such a good be ginning of the business of this House this moming that I hope it will be of the credit of the House to give me the same good hearing as they gave the hon. the Chief Minister. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members: In moving the second reading of the Bill to provide for the amendment of the Co-operative Societies Act No. 29 of 1939, I want to explain very briefly the position. Chapter V of the above-mentioned Act provides for the constitution of a Board of Directors for Cooperative Societies and Companies. Section 30 (1) of the Act states inter alia that the Directors of any Co-operative shall be elected at the annual general meeting of the Co-operative. The financing of a Co-operative in the Transkei must of necessity be done by the Transkei Govemment, as there is not Land Bank or other financial institution to comply with this requisite. It follows, therefore, that the Transkei Government must have representation on the Board of Directors of the Co-operative to ensure that its financial interests are properly safeguarded and also to

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see that the policy followed by the Co-operative conforms to the financial requirements of the Treasury. Under the present legislation it is impossible to do so, as no provision is made for the appointment of members to the Board of Directors by the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. The regulations of any Co-operative must comply with the requirements of the Act (section 14). These regulations prescribe the functions of the Co-operative and restrict its activities. It is envisaged that the regulations could prescribe the manner in which the Board of Directors may be constituted other than that prescribed in the Act (vide section 30 ( 1) ). In order to achieve the above it is proposed to amend the Act as proposed in the Bill. Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am reminded of Shakespeare's play "Much Ado about Nothing" and with that in mind I just wonder at times whether or not we are going to constantly have piecemeal amendments of these Acts. It is hoped by this side of the House that the Co-operative Societies Act of 1939 has been read through by the hon . Minister and that the dozen words (no more than that) that he seeks to be added are the only words which he will add for some time to come, for, if we are going to have this sort of thing going on we shall move that the hon. Minister be responsible for the expense in printing these dozen little words of amendment. (Laughter) We see no reason to object to the representation of the Government on the Board of Directors since the Government will be financing these co-operative societies and we hope that that representative will not bring a political flavour into the meetings of the directorate and that the work of the co-operatives will be run purely on a business basis. We can say that even to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. We will not oppose the Bill .

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to express a few words relative to this Bill. It is quite clear that the Bill is out to serve the the interests of the people. You will remember that in the past in this Assembly a constant question was asked as to when a Land Bank would come into existence for the people of the Transkei. It was clear that in the whole of the Republic we had no such Land Bank and that by this Bill efforts were being made to put the wishes of the people into effect. If this is co, it will be able to achieve much of what is wanted by the people and as we discuss it we feel it will meet all the needs of the Bantu people, particularly in the agricultural field. The people are particularly keen on getting good seed and fertilisers and the Bill covers a much wider field with regard to dairy products. vegetable culture and so on. It is perfectly clear that much needs to be put right in the agricultural life of the people. However, it is not so clear how this will be brought about. We have quite a number of people who are too backward to be able to benefit by this Bill . We would like the hon. Minister to keep this in mind and try to find ways -337-

and means as to how that large proportion of the people will be able to benefit from the Bill . We did at one time speak of 5,000 people who attended the school at Tsolo. Those people came from all over the Transkei . The surprising feature about the group who attended the school was that they were teachers, ministers and their wives, and yet right next to the school there were people who did not know of the existence of that course. It is that particular section which I say are not benefiting by these activities and the arrangements being made. It is that particular group that I feel efforts should be made to reach, so that they can also benefit by this Bill. That group is quite satisfied with their present situation . They starve and die as a result. Day in, day out, their young children are being buried because of famine . THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you talking about? MR. JAFTA: By pointing these things out I was not in any way criticizing the Minister. All I ask is that efforts be made to reach these people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you are responsible for that. You are telling the people not to co-operate with the Government. MR . JAFTA : The hon. the Minister of Agriculture is the one who should know all these things. The Minister said we should help these backward people but he is in a position to approach the whole Transkei. It is not that the people will not take to heart what the Minister says. It is merely that they do not know and your Department is not able to reach them all . The only way he can reach them is by cooperation between the Department and the chiefs and the people. No one will oppose anything which will help him to live. The important thing is to bring the matter to the people. I have said time and again that the reason why there are no vegetable gardens in many of the Bantu homes is because they do not know how to grow these vegetables , because it is not explained to them. The people who can bring home these matters to the people are the members of the Assembly, together with the Department. One other matter I wish to mention is that all those who make efforts to achieve progress must be encouraged. There are people who are making efforts to have these vegetable gardens in front of their homes , but they are disturbed by the poultry and the pigs and so on running backwards and forwards. My request is that the chiefs who have the power should attend to the complaints of the people who are making an effort. Some people plant these vegetables at times when other people are not planting and they should therefore be encouraged. Mr. Chairman, I hope this Bill will go forward and that it will be of value to all the people.

THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I should like to throw some light on the remarks of the hon. member.

THE CHAIRMAN : It is not necessary. No one is against the Bill . Does the House agree? Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chair-

TE

man , the committee stage will be on Tuesday, 14th June. SOUTHERN SESOTHO AN OFFICIAL LANGUAGE IN TRANSKEI : REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE

I

I

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, your committee appointed to consider Motion Not 8 met in the Chief Minister's office on the 1st June, 1966. The motion that was submitted to this committee was: " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making Southern Sesotho one of the official languages in the Transkei.'

Now the committee resolved, after deliberations , as follows: (a) That the committee finds it difficult at the early stages of the application of the Transkei Constitution Act (Act No. 48 of 1963) to recommend to the Republican Government that sub-sections ( 1) and (2) of section 6 of the Act be amended so as to provide that Southern Sesotho be an official language of the Govemment. (b) That Southem Sesotho shall also be used for govemmental, legislative, judicial and administrative purposes and all other purposes.

I move, Mr. Chairman, that the recommendations of this committee be adopted by this House. MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. members, I second.

1

Chairman

and hon.

CHIEF J. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman, hon. members, I do not rise to oppose the statement that has been read by the hon. the Chief Minister to the House. May I, however, refer to section (a), where it is stated that the committee finds it difficult at the early stages of the application of the Transkei Constitution Act to amend the relevant section . Mr. Chairman, if I should refer either to this committee or to the Assembly or even to you, as chairman, is there any hope that in the future this matter will be attended to? I say this because I am also a representative of this language group , for indeed this is a language that is spoken by the people and which has its own literature , even to the extent of literature used at universities. I certainly agree with you that in the Transkei we have tribes such as the Baca, Pondo and others , but may it be thoroughly understood that the tribes I refer to are part of the Nguni people whose language is Xhosa. To make this clear, should a Pondo rise in the Assembly to speak, the Xhosa or Baca person will thoroughly understand him , but if I should speak and I have no interpreter who understands Sesotho it will be said that I am speaking some language that nobody understands. That makes it very clear that Sesotho and Xhosa are two distinct languages and there is no relationship between them I will pass on to section (b) where it is stipulated that Southern Sesotho shall also be used for governmental, legislative, judicial and administrative purposes. I accept that, and it also appears in the Constitution in the same terms, but on that point there is literature - papers, for example - that are written in the Transkei here. In some of those papers there are advertisements for vacant posts where it is stated that only people from the Xhosa ethnic group are required. Such an ad-

vertisement stipulates clearly that anybody who is Mosotho is not expected to put in an application. I wish this Goverment would take note particularly of such advertisements. Let it be quite understood that when I speak of the Govemment I include myself. Much as I understand and appreciate this report I would like to ask if it is possible that in future this matter will come again before this Assembly. I will not go into the details of this matter as I feel that the select committee is composed of able men who quite probably have reached that far but I would like it thoroughly understood that Sesotho and Xhosa are two distinct languages and there is no relationship between them. As proof of this, the Xhosa-speaking people do not eat horse flesh and I, as a Mosotho, enjoy horse-flesh. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I have been asked by the Chairman of the select committee to make a few remarks relative to the points raised by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. Our terms of reference were quite specific. We were to consider Southem Sesotho as one of the official languages in the Transkei and that, in effect, was what we did consider. The committee cannot make any promises about what the Legislative Assembly may do or may not do because such promises were outside the terms of reference of the select committee and it is only this House which can raise the matter as a House, and you belong to that House. I must explain quite clearly, Sir, that the committee recognised Sesotho as a language distinct from Xhosa, and it accepted the principle of equal status to both Xhosa and Sesotho. The recommendation of the select committee says it is difficult at the early stages to seek an amendment to the Constitution Act of the Transkei , the operative phrase being "at the early stages", so that in the view of the committee at a later stage the question of Sesotho being embodied as a language in the Constitution may well be raised when the situation will be favourable to such amendment.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: There are other tribes with other languages. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I have been asked to reply on behalf of the chairman of the committee. (Laughter) This select committee can only make a report to this House. It cannot bind this House nor can it bind future govemments, but because the committee felt that Southem Sesotho enjoys a status equal to that of Xhosa it went on to make this recommendation, regard being had to section 6 of the Constitution Act where it says "and Sesotho may be used . . .", and the (b) of the recommendation of the committee says that Sesotho shall also be used. From that report will flow these consequences : Advertisements for applicants will also be in Sesotho ; the Transkei Government we hope will not have to say that only Xhosa-speaking people need apply in its advertisements; and because on this select committee we had members of the Government and Ministers, including the hon . the Chief Minister, it received an assurance from the Chairman , who is the Chief Minister, that previous advertisements by the Republican Government which stated that Xhosa speaking people only need apply will receive representations by the Transkei Goverment to the Republican Government to remove that anomaly . A particular advertisement was brought to the notice of the select committee and the Government may well make representations to the Republican Govemment for a re-advertisement of that post. In effect, therefore, Southern Sesotho will enjoy all the rights and

privileges and uses that Xhosa enjoys, but that should not be taken to mean that, for instance, bills will be drafted in Sesotho also. The assurance is however given that Acts will come out in Sesotho. The intention is to save duplication and expense and delay in time as is occasioned even now when bills have to be presented in three languages. The door has not been closed to an amendment of the Constitution to insert two words after the word "Xhosa" in section 6, the words being "and Sesotho". THE CHIEF MINISTER: And Tembu. MR. GUZANA: That is left to this House and did not fall within the ambit of the terms of reference of the select committee . Our chairman is getting nationalistically stirred but he is but one of the committee and I speak for the whole committee. (Laughter) May I assure this House that this recommendation is not a majority recommendation , but a unanimous one. I think this compromise in the early stages towards giving official status to Southern Sesotho paves the way towards constitutional recognition. I hope I have replied to all the points , unless the hon . Minister of the Interior has a point to raise whilst I am standing?

SUSPENSION OF PROCLAMATION R.400 . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I shall crave further indulgence on behalf of the hon . Mr. O.O. Mpondo in connection with this motion . He left this Assembly last Friday because of illness in the family and it would appear that there has not been any improvement to enable him to come back today. We have not received direct word from him, but we presume that that is the position and I would request that his motion stand down and we give preference to others so that the time is not wasted altogether. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , I gave the hon. Mr. Mpondo a chance to postpone his motion until today , but I do not know if I can postpone it further but as he is not here I will leave it to the House to decide . MR. GUZANA : In the circumstances , Mr. Chairman, I move what I would regard as an unopposed motion , postponing debate on this motion. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In view of the fact that the hon. Mr. Mpondo left under some circumstances with which we sympathise , and in view ofthe fact that we also would like his presence here when we reply to the motion. (We do not want him to turn round when he comes back and say that we were too cowardly to face him) I think I shall second the motion that this stands down until his return.

CHIEF J. MOSHESH : I am grateful for the explanation that has been given , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member, I wonder if you are going to debate this . Are you moving an amendment? CHIEF MOSHESH : I just want to make a comment on this report, Mr. Chairman. I will be brief SO that we shall not waste time on this because I know there are some other members here who wish to say something.

Agreed to.

TRAINING FOR AFRICANS OUTSIDE THE TRANSKEI.

THE CHAIRMAN : If there are other members who wish to say something I must give them a chance first, because you have already spoken.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move:-

CHIEF MOSHESH: Would you grant me just two or three minutes , Mr. Chairman? THE CHAIRMAN: I will give you five minutes.

CHIEF MOSHESH: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I am thankful for the words which the hon. member has just used · the substitution of " shall" for "may". I certainly feel that "shall" is better than "may". Let it be understood, Mr. Chairman, that I am not taking this thing on tribal lines at all. Even though the hon. the Chief Minister has been making remarks , I feel he may mislead some of the people, because in his remarks he suggested that Tembu, Baca, Xesibe and all these other dialects might be introduced. I appeal to him therefore not to confuse the issue. MR. GUZANA: This is a unanimous report. CHIEF making?

MOSHESH :

And the remarks he is

MR. GUZANA: That is outside the committee. The motion was carried. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I now request that the committee be discharged.

Agreed to.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly and in view of the limited facilities in the Republican Bantu Colleges , Transkeians who have completed the requirements to train for medical or any other profession and trade which the Republic and the Transkei may not have provided for Africans , the Govemment should consider the advisability of allowing the Transkeians to train elsewhere and prevailing upon the Republican Government not to refuse passports and/or travel documents to such aspiring Transkeians seeking such training not provided for them in the country ." Mr. Chairman, I take this to be a motion which should not take long to debate . When the Transkei self-government was organised , among other things the question of education worried many people a the Territories. I recall when, on several occasion . in the Legislative Assembly of the Republic of South Africa the Prime Minister was asked what would happen to the education of the people in the Transkei , his reply was constant that the people of the Transkei would take care of their own education. Indeed with that assurance it will be remembered that at the very first meeting of this Assembly, the House rejected the Bantu Education system because among other things this Assembly and the people of the Transkei were convinced of the limitations of that system of education in so far as the aspirations of the people of the Transkei are concemed. We were aware then that even with the setting up of the Bantu colleges , which are

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2

The debate was resumed .

supposed to cater for the education of the African in this our land of birth , that would not provide all that the Transkei child would need in the field of education .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment to the motion as follows :-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Can you name any specific faculties?

That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor:-

MR. RAJUILI : I will give you a few examples and perhaps even before the advent of Bantu education I can give a few examples . THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , at present. MR. RAJUILI: Yes , Sir, I will straight away go into the present. Nowhere in the whole of the Republic of South Africa or in any institutional set-up purported to be for the African child will you find electricians on a fairly high standard catered for, nor can we find anywhere that provision is made for our people to train as pharmacists , to mention a few, so when we were given self-government we felt we would widen the scope of education for our children and we feel therefore that we are not unaware that we still are the citizens of the Republic of South Africa , though in a self- governing state in the Transkei. What this motion seeks is that where we would like to open avenues of leaming for the children of the Transkei which cannot be found either in the Transkei or in the Republic of South Africa, the Republican Govemment should allow the Transkeians to seek such learning where it is possible to find it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Even in Russia?

MR. RAJUILI : Engineering for instance is one of the things , and motor mechanics . There is some interjection relative to Russia or some such country from some irresponsible person on the other side. When we are on the matter of education for our children we in no way welcome any such things in that education as may attach some soumess of some kind or another. It has been possible in the past for the children of the Transkei to seek education outside the borders of this country in the westem world and there has never been any difficulty in granting them travel documents to reach such countries. What this motion seeks is that those chances should be available should the Transkeians want to avail themselves of such opportunities. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And where provision is made in the country that its citizens should go overseas? MR. RAJUILI : The hon . the Minister of Education wants to know what happens when provision is made in the country. It is pathetic to see that he has not perhaps read that motion , and if he has he appears not to have understood it. Education is free and if we should be given the chance we should be allowed to have that chance , but we say where provision has not been made they should be allowed. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I second the motion. The debate was adjourned .

"there are extensive facilities for the training of Transkei citizens in the Republic of South Africa and where facilities in particular fields of study are non-existent the Transkei Govemment should make representations for the creation of such facilities at South African Universities and in deserving cases , make representations to the Republican Government for the issue of passports to suitable students for overseas study purposes " .

Mr. Chairman , you will note that there are already.... MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I wish to rise on a point of order. My submission , with respect to you , Sir, is that what the hon. the Minister of the Interior seeks to move by way of an amendment is substantially what is contained in this motion. Implicitly in the motion it is sought to have facilities provided in the Republic and in the Transkei and that when these are not available then the Govemment should grant passports or travelling documents to enable people to get these facilities outside the Republic . The ideas are exactly the same. I take it that the motion to amend this substantive motion introduces no new idea to this motion and therefore is a misuse of a provision for making amendments in this House . I move that it be rejected by the House.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: My submission is, Mr. Chairman , that the original motion and the amendment are totally different. In the first place I will start with the phrase “ limited facilities" in the original motion . Firstly , my submission is that there are extensive facilities . Secondly, the original motion says "and the Transkei may not have provided for Africans , the Govemment should consider the advisability of allowing the Transkeians to train elsewhere and prevailing upon the Republican Govemment not to refuse passports...." etc. Now the amendment says "there are extensive facilities for training of Transkei citizens in the Republic of South Africa and where facilities in particular fields of study are nonexistent the Transkei Govemment should make representations for the creation of such facilities ... " That is where the stress is , Mr. Chairman . These two things are not similar. MR. RAJUILI: While the hon . standing, Mr. Chairman, I think....

Minister is

THE CHAIRMAN : Are you standing on a point of order?

MR. RAJUILI : Yes , Sir. My point of order is that after the hon. Minister had tried to show the amendment in a different light , we would like to save the time of the House and we do not want to make it different where there is no need for it. I think we differ in three words which we could easily add and then the motions will be identical.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. -340-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Withdraw your amendment, then there will be no need to add those words.

THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on with your amendment, hon. member. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , I have already stated that these two are not identical. It is common knowledge that everybody would like to see his child receive education as

At present my Department does not refuse anybody a recommendation to be allowed to proceed to any country outside the Republic. We do not know therefore what reasons the Republican Govemment may have for refusing any member who may have been recommended by us. MR. GUZANA: That is not your affair. You just make representations .

far as his mental ability allows him. I also am of that opinion that if a child is capable of acquiring education, that child must be given the opportunity to do so up to any standard he can reach. It is my belief however that if you want to put your house in order you must start by sweeping it clean before you go outside . According to the motion of the hon. member, it appears as though he says: I am tired of putting this country into order and so I must go outside to get what I want. By this I think I want to impress it upon the hon. member that it is his duty as a member of this Assembly to put right first what is necessary in the Transkei before he proceeds outside. He has already stated that there are limited facilities in the Republic of South Africa. He knows that we are part and parcel of the Republic and as a resident of the Transkei and of the Republic he ought, if he feels there is insufficient provision , to strive for full provision to be made. MR. GUZANA: But you refused a motion last year seeking the acceptance of the principle of a university in the Transkei . That is the Government that is doing that.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: There are individuals whom we as a Government would not feel could be allowed to go out of the country.

MR .

RAJUILI : You are outside the motion

now. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It is inside the amendment. MR. GUZANA: That is why the amendment says "suitable students "? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What do you mean by " suitable students"? MR. GUZANA: Academically and intellectually suitable. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And otherwise . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Some of these people say they are going for academic education whereas in their own minds they are going for political purposes . MR. GUZANA : Are you going to send them to Russia?

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: That was last year. This is 1966. MR. GUZANA: What is the difference between 1965 and 1966? Are you speaking honestly or dishonestly?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What is to stop them from going?

MR. GUZANA : Because you won't allow them to go to Russia.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Evidently the hon. member agrees with me that these facilities are available in this country and if he realised that facilities are not available he should strive to provide them. It is for that reason that this amendment stipulates that if there should be a situation where facilities are not available the Transkei Government should approach the Republican Government to see that these are made available . To go further, Mr. Chairman , let it be quite clear that the question of passports is a matter that cannot be dealt with by the Transkeian Government.

MR. GUZANA: That is why the motion seeks you to make representations to the Republican Government.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I don't know where I stand now. (Laughter) You will be aware that when the hon . Mr. Rajuili spoke on this motion he was very brief. MR. RAJUILI : Because I knew you agreed with

me. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : He is aware that if we were to put in only two words that are not in this amendment then the two would be identical. On that account he made it clear to me that he would rather withdraw his motion in favour of mine. The only thing that remains is for me to ask him to withdraw his motion entirely and accept my amendment .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It is for that reason that I agree with you that this body must consult with the Republican Govemment to make facilities available , but let it be clear that we cannot compel the Republican Government to permit people whom they feel they cannot allow out of the country or whom they do not consider fit... MR. GUZANA: Who is going to decide whether people are fit? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : That is the point. The Republican Government must decide. -341-

CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman , I rise to second the amendment proposed by the hon . the Minister of the Interior. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I fail to understand the purpose behind the amendment here, because in my owm view the mover of the amendment seeks to delude himself as to the present education facilities available to Africans in the Republic of South Africa. One would like to ask him where the engineering facilities are where is for the Africans ; electrical engineering

it provided for Africans for training? Surveying, Diesel engineering, pharmacy and many other educational avenues....

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We shall not go to Ahrenstein in Durban. MR. GUZANA : The trouble is if you went to Durban you would be afraid to lose your soul and so you would be afraid to retum to your father.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Why then don't you make representations for such in the Republic?

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , can he prove that we get instructions from Pretoria?

MR . GUZANA: We have made them time and again to this Government . In 1964 we asked for it · you turned it down ; in 1965 we asked for it you turned it down. This is the third time of asking and I suppose you are turning it down again by making a pointless amendment. Why ask us to make representations for these facilities when you refuse to endorse our requests when we do make them? You are creating a situation where a man asks and you refuse. When he makes an altemative , you tell him to ask again. I hope the Goverment is going to be constructive at least on this point . It must be conceded that the facilities available are very,

MR. GUZANA: I shall tell the hon. Paramount Chief that you have in the various departments officials of the Republican Goverment guiding this Government which, in effect, shows that there is direction through them from Pretoria. (Laughter) Let us put the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland in his position. You are no more than a member of the Government Party and I must excuse you for not knowing that the Govemment.... (Interjections) This is the point. I was saying that your children and our children will benefit from this and that this should receive your support because it guarantees the future of the African in a complex world of science.

very limited indeed and if the African is going to realise himself in the economy of South Africa these facilities have to be made available throughout the Republic, but whilst these facilities are not available the African should not be stopped from training in these departments, or in these various avenues elsewhere. The motion seeks just that and no more and, because the issue of passports is in the hands of the Republican Government it seeks that this Govemment should make representations so that Africans will not be refused passports or travel documents to get to such

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Government is doing that. MR. GUZANA: I hope it is doing something. We cannot see it and at the present moment it cannot boast of anything it has done.

schools for such training as they desire. The refusal of passports is not purely imaginary because there are people who have not been able to get outside the Transkei for such training as is required, just because the Republican Government refused a passport. I think the hon. the Minister of the Interior is aware of such applications of students seeking to be trained outside South Africa being refused, and leaving the country on an exit permit. The result of that is that every time we

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You mentioned pharmacy and surveying. They are both provided for.

have a very brilliant African he does not get a permit to go outside and he gets an exit permit and thus

pharmacists at Fort Hare? I hope the hon. the Minister of Education will not give the impression that courses for pharmacy are held at Fort Hare. (Interjections) And can you send a student from the Transkei to the University of the North to be trained? I will ask the Govemment to be a responsible Government and do not try to dodge the issue by quibbling. The fact of the matter is that the facilities are limited and this motion seeks that these facilities should be extended.

he is a loss to South Africa. Now that is the sort of thing that is happening to Transkeians also, in an area where we require these highly skilled people to work amongst South Africans. Just to show how inept this Government is I want to refer to a request made by the Opposition last year for negotiation with the Republican Govemment to enable Africans to train as mechanics and no more. This Government would have nothing to do with that. You refused to endorse that recommendation. One wants to know whether you are satisfied with the position as it exists at the present moment. Your attitude is just inexplicable because this is indeed something that would help you even to implement your policy of separate development - that you have the African personnel which has the skill to construct bridges, to do everything that is required but you remain dumb in a mechanized society and obdurate over a thing like that just because it happens to come from the Opposition benches. I would like the minds of the Govemment to become open on this issue. It is not the Opposition that is going to benefit from this · it is your children and our children who are going to benefit. I do not know whether you were told that you should not accept anything from here unless you hear the word from Pretoria that you can agree...

MR. GUZANA: Where? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In Universities of the North and Fort Hare. MR.

THE

GUZANA :

CHIEF

the

Do you have a course for

MINISTER :

Leave

it to us.

MR . GUZANA: But in the meantime Africans who seek to take advantage of such training as is not provided for in South Africa should have no difficulty in getting passports or travel documents. If I were asked to give a definition of " Doomsday" as far as this Government is concemed, I would give the definition "Leave it to us" . (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I second this motion.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No.

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MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman, I wish to reply to the debate . It is very interesting to know how the Government can misuse the unfortunate majority that it has. This amendment has been made not because it is necessary, nor is the mover sincere in it other than to play the fool with those who are to support it, but I am very sincere in what I am saying. This is where we must prove beyond doubt to the Government supporters that they can be misused against their consciences by an irres-

anywhere in the Transkei , so in the past we sent people to England , Scotland, America, Europe , and the Govemment never refused . European children , despite the number of universities providing those courses, wanted to do research work and they went outside the Republic in large numbers and yet a Govemment that would like to see itself running a State on its own will come forward and refuse

ponsible Govemment, and the sadness of the whole thing is that they will be made to do what is wrong and the Govemment themselves know it is wrong. However, this being a matter on education as has been pointed out, not of the children of the members of the Opposition but of the citizens of the Transkei . It is in incidents like this that a misconceived loyalty to an irresponsible Goverment can be made use of by the members on the other side . The mover of the amendment says that I probably speak as a frustrated person. I say "No". He says we should rather ask that these facilities be provided. Now I want to show the insincerity of that amendment. In the first place we cannot ask for what we have and we cannot ask for what we will never possess . An argument like that unfavourably reflects on the hon. the Minister of Education who said that at this stage and for a very long time there can be no need for provision at university level in the Transkei because there is no money, and arrangements have been made with an existing university for that, unless the hon. the Minister of Education was not sincere in so saying, backed up by the Govemment. They talk of extensive facilities. Provision and facilities have been made available for European children in this country in abundance. I want them to mark that. Even there he cannot say there are extensive facilities today. While there are facilities at various places they still would like to go overseas to other countries in large numbers because there are no extensive facilities even for Europeans . This is nothing but a reflection of insincerity of purpose in moving this amendment. Now you see a conflict of opinion in one and the same person here . He talks about stipulating that if no facilities are available then we can go out. Sir, I do not like to repeat but I did speak when I moved this motion

to rise with any people to that level of education . It is a shame and a disgrace. Their supporters see clearly today that they are supporting a very weak and irresponsible Government. (Interjections) I can never compromise with anybody on matters of education I cannot. I can see the wrath of the people throughout the country for a Govemment to do a thing like this. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But you said these motions are the same . MR. RAJUILI: Our children cannot go out in large numbers. They haven't the money. It will be very few. We still say the motion must be accepted because you just want to misuse the members on the other side . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Why quarrel with the amendment if it is the same?

of the many things we did not have. The suitability of an applicant is a matter that does not come within the scope of this. When an applicant places the request it is those to whom the request is placed who will decide that. It is not that we can say that everybody is suitable and we did not say that. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Therefore in your opinion you mean to say that my Department does not need to make any recommendations?

MR . RAJUILI: You doubt that the facilities for Africans are very limited. I want to emphasize what was said by my colleague that this Govemment is even denying themselves the chance to implement their own policy of separate development. They are definitely negating that in no uncertain manner. We feel that the amendment cannot be accepted by this side and I hope the members are clear that what we are saying is exactly what the Govemment is saying, except that they want to misuse you. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : People in glass houses must not throw stones . MR. RAJUILI: In another twenty years or more we shall not have any of these educational facilities or chances of training our children. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Wait until we get independence.

MR. RAJUILI: No, I have not said that, nor am I implying that. The principle of the motion is to open avenues. If the Government is sincere and it hopes one day to be a State that will control its own affairs , they would not bring in an amendment like this. They talk of one place that is not even known by 80 per cent of the members here , and that is the only place. It is more than very limited . We would like to train nurses to the status of matrons to manage the hospitals and we do not have that for our people anywhere in the Republic of South Africa. (Interjections) The training for nurses and any medical training is so low thatwe have been told we should have to have loaned

MR. RAJUILI : The people of the Transkei cannot be told by anybody to wait even for one year for the education of their children. Allow the children to go overseas and then wait for your independence. You have your education and I am sure your son would not like to wait two hundred years for his child to get the education he would like. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, I have tried to reflect the evil lack of sincerity of purpose in that amendment which in actual fact agrees with this motion. You can see there is no sincerity on that side. (Interjections ) I cannot expect the chiefs to support an amendment like that as against a motion like this, which is quite clear.

officials because we are not ready yet. The sister tutors we would like must be on a par with any in any country and we must have facilities for training them. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are being trained in Durban and Cape Town.

THE SECRETARY: The question is a motion by the hon. Mr. B. S. Rajuili , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon . the Minister of the Interior. I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the motion.

MR. RAJUILI: No, you must be sure of your facts . We have no place for training mechanics

The words proposed to be deleted were omitted by 34 votes to 53. -343-

The words proposed to be substituted were accepted by 54 votes to 36 after a division as follows:-

AYES

NOES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqik ela Mr. J. Dumalisile Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Paramount Chief Victor Poto

Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau

Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Tolikana Mangala Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Sigcau Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota. 2. Z. Chemane.

Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko

Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola. 2. C.S. Mda

Government should consider the advisability of:

The motion as amended was carried by 54 votes to 36 .

(a) investigating the deplorable conditions under which labourers on the roads as well as those labourers connected with Governand/or industrial agricultural ment's

INVESTIGATION INTO LIVING CONDITIONS OF LABOURERS .

projects live;

MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the

-344-

(b) reviewing the wages paid to such labourers with a view to the improvement of such wages . "

MR. BUBU : I asked the officials at the head

It will be seen , Mr. Chairman , that in the first instance I am asking the Govemment to investigate the position relating to the matters raised in the motion.

of the depot to allow me to inspect the quarters where the roads staff live, so they were very kind and welcomed me. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Because you were coming to Parliament in order to come and exaggerate things.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We know the conditions. MR. BUBU: When I say the Govemment must investigate, it is because I am convinced that the Govemment is not aware of the conditions prevailing.

MR. BUBU: Naturally so I was taken round and I found out the conditions under which the clerical staff live . There are some quarters provided for them which appeared to be single quarters . The rooms in which they sleep , singly of course, seemed to me to be quite reasonable in so far as their condition was concerned . There are three or four such rooms. There was a common room provided for them. This really is a shack composed of a

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you want to be a Minister of Roads?

MR. BUBU: I am surprised when I hear the hon. the Chief Minister say they are aware of the conditions . It is really disgusting, Mr. Chairman · not so much surprising, it is disgusting to hear the hon. the Chief Minister say they are aware of the conditions to which I am going to draw attention. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are going to make exaggerations in this House upon things you know nothing about.

number of rooms . The walls are of corrugated iron; the bedrooms are lined with timber. Now the common rooms which are a kitchen and dining-room have floors which consist of cement. As far as these quarters were concemed there was nothing much to complain about, but there is much to complain about in the conditions prevailing in the kitchen . I found there that there was a stove which was said to

MR. BUBU: I do not think it is wise for the hon . the Chief Minister to anticipate that there are going to be exaggerations .

have been provided as equipment by the Department. It was the only article of equipment that there was. In the dining-room there was a small table and two or three chairs that I regarded as fairly satisfactory.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your motion has made

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you want the Government to provide furniture and everything?

exaggerations already.

MR. BUBU: You must listen.

MR . BUBU: As a reasonable and responsible man he should wait and listen. Why does he feel uncomfortable?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am the Minister of Finance.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is because of the MR. BUBU: That is just why you must listen . I want to submit that having regard to the fact that a kitchen should have certain minimum equipment, it is proper for me to draw the attention of the House to the fact that I consider it improper that only a stove was provided for those quarters .

wording of your motion. MR. BUBU: The wording conditions in these areas.

is based on the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, but they are exaggerated.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Did you ever run a Department before?

MR. BUBU: The House will judge whether they are exaggerated . Firstly, on this particular day, which happened to be the 18th April, I paid a visit to the Roads Department as that Department can be seen at work in my area in the Qaukeni region , Lusikisiki district. Lusikisiki particularly in happens to be the capital of Eastem Pondoland in view of the fact that it is the district where the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondo land resides .

MR . BUBU: If you went into that kitchen you would find that the mugs and plates which the servants of that department use for eating utensils were put on the floors.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Shame! MR. BUBU: There was no table on which they could wash the utensils after eating. There was no kitchen dresser where they could be placed.

not the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you expect the Government to provide everything for them?

Then why do you

MR . BUBU: There was nothing in which they could store their food. It must be remembered that

MR. BUBU: You are responsible Paramount Chief. THE CHIEF MINISTER: bring him into the debate?

MR. BUBU: On this particucar day I went into the Lusikisiki depot of the Roads Department . I take it it is the headquarters of the Roads Department in that region.

these people, coming from various places , live a common life together.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why did you go there? You are not the Minister of Roads. -345-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What stops them from purchasing these things? MR. BUBU: The hon . the Chief Minister asks me why they should not buy these things.

50

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you going to imply that the Paramount Chief is responsible for these conditions? Why bring in the paramount chiefs?

3

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , it is with deep regret that I rise this morning on behalf of the Assembly to express our shock at the death of the hon . member, Mr. Tolikana Mangala. As you know, the late Tolikana Mangala was a blood relative of both the Paramount Chiefs of Western Pondoland and Eastern Pondoland and was a member of the royal family of Faku . The importance and esteem in which the late Tolikana Mangala was held was made evident at the time he acted as regent of Wester Pondoland for Paramount Chief Victor

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Exactly. What other servants are provided with everything? (Interjections) Are you going to call upon the people to pay more taxes? MR. K.M. GUZANA : You don't ask the Republican Government for the money to buy these things. THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. BUBU: Do you realise that these people are transferred from one place to another? If they collect money to buy things, when one of them is transferred to whom would that article belong?

Poto. Owing , to the work of his father, the late Tolikana Mangala became an outstanding figure in the Transkei . In his lifetime he bacame an outstanding figure first by being appointed headman of his location, then as a member of the Pondoland General Council and then as a member of the

THE CHIEF MINISTER : To all of them. MR. BUBU: But they are subject to transfer. That is why I feel there must be some minimum equipment provided by the Government for the use of these men.

U.T.T.G.C. he won the respect of his colleagues, as Mr. Gordon Dana will bear out. I first came into contact with the late Tolikana Mangala some 24 years ago here in Umtata. Since then a strong friendship has built up between him and me a

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where have you ever seen such a thing?

friendship that endeared him to me very strongly and I regarded him as a father. As a member of the General Council he was a friend of all his colleagues . Only a few days ago I remarked to him jocularly here that I intended to visit him at his kraal . He replied: All right , come along and I will receive you but come prepared and bring whatever nice things you may be able to bring with you. All this he did in great friendship . As a member of the Bunga he was not a regular speaker but whenever any matter concerning livestock came up he became very active . We knew in those days that whenever there was anything to do with the dipping of stock he was a very forceful speaker. That shows it is necessary to have elderly men in these debates

MR. BUBU: It is very strange that our own Government should want the people to eat from the floor when they themselves have been provided for in palatial quarters here at the expense of the Government and they do not even supply minimum requirements for their servants . That is disgraceful. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not the servants of the Goverment · we are the Government. MR. GUZANA : You are the servants of the people and they pay for your furniture. MR. BUBU: I am glad the hon. the Minister of Roads is listening very attentively. He is a conscientious Minister and he wants to know what is going on. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I would understand if you said you wanted to pay for those services . MR. GUZANA : The money was available from the Republican Government - R2,920,000 , and you did not ask them for it. Why don't you ask for it? (General uproar)

not young men who only mislead people . Even during the days ofthe T.T.A. , owing to his presence we realised that we enjoyed considerable dignity. Even today in this House his presence has lent to this Assembly tremendous dignity . This has enabled me and the likes of me to go steadily . We condole with the Pondos generally in the loss they have sustained . We condole with the Transkei generally because it also has suffered a loss , but particularly our condolences will go out to his father's and his grandfather's place. I refer to the late Boklein. We hope that condolences will be conveyed by letter to his family . With those few words I am expressing the feelings of this House.

THE CHAIRMAN : I am now adjourning the House until tomorrow.

The Assembly adjoumed until 11

MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , I rise to be associated ' with the expression of shock and grief from the hon . the Chief Minister over the sudden death of the late Tolikana Mangala , and in doing so I join the members of this House who have been shocked over this sudden loss . It is impossible to estimate at such short notice the value of the life of the late Tolikana Mangala to the people of Western Pondoland and to the peoples of the Transkei , but his greatness descended upon all those who happened to be associated with him in administrative work, legislative work and the life of the Pondos in particular. The late Tolikana Mangala was a man of indomitable courage and when the Great War of 1914-1918 broke out and the Government sought the help of the African people , he was amongst those who joined the army and fought for South Africa. By so doing he took his life in his hands and sought to shed it for the people of South Africa, but God brought him back and in 1927

a.m. on

Tuesday, 14th June , 1966. TUESDAY, 14TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT.

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members , it is with deep regret that I have to advise the House of the passing away early this morning of the hon . member for Nyanda , Mr. Tolikana Mangala. -346-

he became a member of the Pondoland General Council, to serve his people with courage in making laws and making recommendations which would benefit the people of the Transkei . He was the personification of the constitutional development of the Transkei, for from 1927 up to the date of his death he went through the constitutional bodies and was a member of those bodies until he died. When his membership of this Legislative Assembly had vote of the people in to be determined by the Western Pondoland they gave him a warm vote and he became a member of this Assembly. That indicated to us in what high esteem he was held by those he had served for so many years. I.first came to know him personally when he became a member of the Opposition party in the Transkei Government . I was impressed by his quiet dignity, his spare and wise words and his dedication to the cause of the African people of the Transkei , and when he had to choose between two different policies of government he showed his largeness of heart by embracing that Christian concept of extending a hand of friendship to all the races of the Republic of South Africa. He is indeed a Christian man who sees all men equal before God. I can remember distinctly on the day we had the Republican celebrations at the Great Piace at Nyandeni . He stood up straight as a ramrod and spoke from the bottom of his heart, expressing the thanks of the Pondos for the celebrations which were brought to their Great Place. I can never say too much about his value to this House . It is difficult to regard this House as continuing in existence without Tolikana Mangala as a member of the Assembly. It is difficult to conceive the Nyanda court without Tolikana as the guiding hand, but God has called him to higher service at a ripe age of well over seventy . His life in this world has been a long one · one of service, one of dedication, one of self-sacrifice, and we deeply regret the loss of such a great man. Our condolences go to his family, to his relatives , to the royal house of the Pondos and to all those who have been associated with him in his long life of service . May his soul rest in peace. Mr. Chairman, we have a long history of the late Mangala's life and I would crave your indulgence to extend an opportunity to the hon . member , Mr. Maninjwa, to say a few words on this occasion , Sir. MR. L. MANINJWA: Mr. Chairman , and hon. members , the figure to whom reference is being made this morning is one of the most outstanding, particularly among the Pondo tribes of Qaukeni and Nyanda. This man was a strong link between the two families of the Pondo tribe. His advice did not fall on deaf ears in so far as both the Paramount Chiefs are concerned. He was the eldest son of Chief Mangala, the Chief Mangala who acted as regent for Paramount Chief Victor Poto. In 1924 the late Tolikana became a headman and his service among the people has been recounted here this morning. He received his education at Buntingville Training Institution . I am quite certain that all the people in the Nyandeni area will be shocked when they hear of the passing of this chief. He had sympathy with all children , with the widows and the bereaved and in any court discussing the problems of the widows he stood up for them. His life was spent in telling the truth and the court at Nyandeni knew him as such a man. On account of his truthfulness he became a deputy of the Nyandeni court until this day when he has passed from this world. We feel we should ask the Almighty who will replace Tolikana . Indeed we are gratified that at the

-347-

age of three-score and ten and more God did extend his hand to him. Our sympathies go to his family, to his friends and to his kinsmen , and we say: May he rest in peace .

QUESTIONS.

MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , as the hon. Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi has asked me to attend to his business I put Question No. 84 of his behalf. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , the member who asked this question is no longer a member of this House and therefore this question cannot be put. OPPOSITION MEMBER: when he put the question.

He

was a member

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Even if he was a member when this question was put he is no longer a member today. Now this is a legal point I am putting and only a legal man can answer it. The rest of the people can sit down. I submit that when the question is put the questioner should be a member of the House when he put the question , but today he is not a member of this House and so , Mr. Chairman , I move that questions by this hon. member should be struck off the order paper. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , unfortunately this House has not been given the reasons why it is suggested that the hon. member, Mr. Nogcantsi, is no longer a member of this Assembly. We have known him to be a member and the House has

F

accepted him as a member, and when he went down to Grahamstown to face a charge he was a member of this House. When the case was remanded he was allowed out on bail and he came back and participated in the deliberations of this House . He returned to Grahamstown and was convicted and sentenced and we are advised that leave to appeal was granted and therefore he must have appealed, and such appeal suspends the conviction and sentence until the appeal is disposed of one way or the other. I submit therefore that he is still a member of this House.

F H

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Is he a free man at present? THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the Chief Minister moved that the question by the hon. member should be deleted and I want to know whether you are moving. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I submit that before we decide whether or not this question should stand, we must decide whether or not the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi is a member of this House. I think that is the legal point which has to be decided and if it is decided against membership then the questions fall away, but if it is decided that he is still a member then his questions stand and they can be put on his behalf. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I think we are going to waste a lot of time on this because in the first place there is a motion before you. Now, my hon . friend across the floor argues

а

I

that the first thing to be decided is whether the hon. member who is absent from this House is a member of this House . Now I am just going to put a hypothetical question : Supposing you decide that he is still a member and he is not here. Last week there was a questioner who had been authorised by him to put the question , as he alleged , but now nobody knew whether he would be here today. Now who is going to put the question today and who has been authorised by the hon. member in anticipation of his conviction and remaining in Grahamstown? In any event, section 28 ( 1 ) (a) (iii) provides that a convicted person is disqualified as a voter and if he is not a voter then he cannot be a member of the House in terms of section 29. The position is this - that he remains convicted even if he has appealed. He is a convicted person until the conviction is set aside by a competent court. My learned friend across the floor knows that when a person is convicted he is supposed to work until a request is made for the suspension of the sentence pending appeal, but the moot point here is that the hon. member is convicted and in terms of this section he is a convicted person and the conviction has not been set aside. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I do not want to go into the legal aspect of this . I am on the question of membership. I would like to know, because this morning and on other occasions you have announced the termination of membership of of members of this House in one way or another, whether the House was advised that on such-andsuch a day this particular member is no longer a member of this House. I think that when members have ceased to be members of this House that an announcement to that effect has been made. I am not asking one way or the other, but I am sounding a warning that when a member resigns from this House it is done officially , not as we are doing it now . THE CHAIRMAN : I gave the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi indulgence to have his questions asked and I am no longer prepared to do that. He can ask his questions next year if he comes back.

R400 with the prison code on admission? " REPLY : The Department of Prisons is not a Transkeian department under my control. The required informa tion is therefore not available and endeavours are being made to obtain the information from that Department. However, I regret that my Department will be unable to obtain the information before the

end of this session.

QUESTION 98: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of the Interior:(a) "How many social workers finished the course from 1963-65? (b) How many are training now? (c) Of these , how many are Transkeians ? (d) How many will be working in the Translei in the near future? (e) How many trained home welfare officers are there in the Transkei? (f) In which districts could these be found and how many in each? (g) Why, as unanimously agreed upon in this house 3 years ago, do these home welfare officers not work in the Transkei? "

REPLY: (a), (b) and (c). It is not clear what course the honourable

member, is referring to. In any case, my Department is not in possession of information relating to courses at universities and other education institutions . (d) Provision has been made for the appointment of four university-trained social workers in the Transkei in the near future. It is hoped to create four further posts as soon as practicable. (e) and (f) Home Welfare Officers have never been employed by the Transkei Government, and it is therefore not possible to say how many there are in the Transkei.

(g) This part of the question is not understood. It is not understood who unanimously agreed to do what. The only action I took in the matter was to make preliminary enquiries about the availability of the people who formerly were trained at Mbuto and worked as home welfare officers with a view to considering their appointment in posts that may be created by the Public Service Commission. I gave no definite undertaking to this House or anybody else that they would be employed.

MR. LUWACA: On a point of privilege , Mr. Chairman.... THE CHAIRMAN : I want to tell the hon. member that he cannot say anything more about Question No. 84.

MR. LUWACA : Mr. Chairman , if the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi is no longer a member we must be told. THE CHAIRMAN : That is all , thank you . We will continue with Question No. 97.

QUESTION 97: Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Justice :(a) "How many Transkeian persons are detained up to date under Proclamation R400 of 1960 (i) in the Transkeian prisons and (ii) in the Republican prisons ? (b) Are there any Transkeian political prisoners who have been released under amnesty during the celebrations of the 5th Anniversary of the Republic of South Africa?

(c) What steps could be taken to induce the prison chiefs to fumish detainees under

QUESTION 99. Miss Lillian

Twetwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:(a) "How many jackals have been destroyed by his hunting dogs? (b) Where was this if so? (c) Could the Minister destroy same at some forests near Shawbury where these animals play havoc to our stock? (d) Does he know that also baboons from some of these forests destroy our mealies and pumpkins? (e) If he knows, what steps is he prepared to take to stop this situation?"

-348-

REPLY: (a) During the period 1st April , 1965 to 31st March, 1966 a total of 184 jackals were destroyed.

2236

(b) Throughout the Transkei. The numbers killed per magisterial district are as follows:28 Qumbu 24 Tsolo 13 Umtata Engcobo St. Marks 41 2 Kentani Butterworth 5 19 Lusikisiki Tsomo 3 21 Elliotdale 16 Mqanduli Nggeleni Nqamakwe

2624

Total :

184

(c) Particular attention is given to troublesome areas when these are reported.

(d) No.

1963 - 1966 , is:TSITSA

11. Nil. GQUKUNQA Nil . INXU It is not known at which crossings these fatalities occurred .

QUESTION 103: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister o. Education:(a) "If he has ever thought of inviting two or three sensible female parents to his committee when discussing delicate matters about female teachers before coming to conclusions as have been reached about them?

(b) If not, why not?"

REPLY : (a) No. (b) It is neither wise nor practicable to consult persons outside of the Department on matters pertaining to the discipline and control of Departmental officials, as this would open the way to extra departmental interference and lead to conflict between the Department and outsiders.

(e) Falls away. QUESTION 100: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Education:"What immediate steps have been taken to combat the marked inadequacy of fumiture at schools as this does not only worry the teacher but also retards the progress of the children?" REPLY : The Department is aware of the shortage and with a view to combating same, funds placed on the estimates of expenditure for the financial year 1966/67 are double the previous provision. This matter was pertinently referred to by me in my policy speech.

QUESTION 101: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Education : "If he could not increase the number of needlework supervisors as the present number of only two is too small to cover the whole of the Transkei ?" REPLY : The Department is satisfied that, at this stage, the number of supervisors is sufficient. However, the matter is receiving constant attention and should the Department at any stage feel that the number of supervisors should be increased, appropriate steps will be taken.

QUESTION 102; Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"How many lives have been claimed by the Tsitsa, Gqukunqa and Inxu rivers respectively from 1966? " 1963

REPLY : As far as could be ascertained the number of lives claimed by the three rivers during the years -349-

MR. J.M. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply made by the hon. the Minister of Education, I would like to know how he receives correspondence from people outside , seeing that he is not prepared to allow people from outside to enter into matters pertaining to the Department, and yet when he receives correspondence from people who discuss teachers he sends people to go and investigate. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, there are official bodies which communicate with the Department, such as the school committees . I have no knowledge of any outsiders other than such bodies writing to the Department on such matters.

QUESTION 104: MIss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of the Interior:(a) "If he could not undertake to investigate the extent of damage suffered by one whose house or hut has been struck by lightning and give assistance if the damage is great? (b) Further if he could offer the disability grant to those who fall victims of lightning by being crippled or suffer in any other way through same forthwith?" REPLY : (a) The Transkei Government, while being sympathetic towards the victims of lightning, cannot undertake to compensate individuals for damage suffered as a result of such a natural hazard. If it did so, it would have to extend similar compensation to the victims of all other types of disaster caused by floods, hurricanes and so on. Provision does, however, exist for the Government to render emergency relief in cases of group or mass distress under such conditions. It is expected of individuals that they should take timely and reasonable pre cautions against natural dangers, and in the case of

lightning every owner of a hut or house should instal a lightning conductor. This can be done at very little cost. Useful hints to minimise the damage and injury caused by lightning will be found in an article on page 94 of the publication "baNtu" dated February, 1963.

(ii) the applicant's physical and financial position are considered in order to determine whether he has the ability and means to cultivate the land beneficially and also to pay the annual quitrent thereon.

(b) People who become physically handicapped or crippled as a result of lightning can be given a disability grant if their condition is such that it renders them eligible for a grant. Naturally, application must be made through a magistrate in the usual way.

QUESTION 105: Mr. L.T. Mazwi asked the Minister of the Interior:"That in the event of a title deed holder in the surveyed areas forfeiting his right to a garden lot through failure to pay the required quitrent, why are his close relatives disallowed from applying for the re - allotment of such land to them as obtaining with other landless residents of the area? "

REPLY : (1) Surveyed allotments are forfeited for nonpayment of quitrent in terms of section 5(b) of Proclamation No. 196 of 1920 which reads "Should any registered holder of an allotment under Proclamation No. 227 of 1898 ( Cape) or No. 241 of 1911 remain for a period of two years in default in the payment of quitrent or of any of the annual instalments of the costs of survey, his allotment may be declared forfeited by the Minister of Native Affairs, provided that notice of the intention of the Minister for Native Affairs to declare the allotment forfeited shall be posted by the resident magistrate of the district at the court house and at the premises of the registered holder for twenty -eight days. "

MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of the Interior in connection with the lands that have been forfeited by their owners, why is it not necessary that the holder of the land is not called to the magistrate's office and told that his land is going to be taken away from him? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Supposing the person that the hon. member is talking about is not present? Suppose he is in Cape Town, for instance? What happens then? Does he suggest that the magistrate or the headman or the chief must go and find him?

MR. L.Z. MAZWI: Mr. Chairman, what worries me in this matter is that, for instance , say my brother has a land but he cannot always tell me that he is not paying his quitrent. Even if he receives notice he is not going to tell me he has received a notice because he has failed to pay his rent. I will only know when the people are all being told at the chief's meeting, but now his land THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, are you asking a question? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Are the rela tions between you and your brother good? MR. MAZWI: When I applied for this land together with other applicants from the location, it is said I knew about this land and yet it was not brought to my notice.

(2) It is not correct that the close relatives of the previous holder of a forfeited surveyed allotment are disallowed from applying for re-allotment to them of such land. They are at liberty to apply along with other landless residents of the location and applications are considered on their merits and the land is

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Failure on the part of the hon. member's brother to inform him is not my concem. It is your brother's duty to inform you that he pays quitrent on the land or not, so that should he be in some financial difficulty people like his younger brother could come to his assistance. If this is not done then the procedure is as I have explained. It is pure luck whether he gets the allotment or whether it is passed on to a more deserving case.

reallotted to the most deserving applicant whether it be a close relative or a non-relative. There are cases where close relatives succeed in having the land re-allotted to them. (3) The main reason why close relatives are not necessarily given a preferential claim to such allotments is the fact that they are afforded ample opportunity to safeguard their rights by paying the arrear quitrent after the issue of the forfeiture notices and before the Minister declares the allotment forfeited. In this way they, the relatives can avoid forfeiture and the allotment remains that of the holder even if he is an absconder.

QUESTION 106: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Whether the honourable Minister contemplates training assistant engineers to provide in cases of the present assistant engineers getting promotion? "

(4) The re-allotment of forfeited allotments is, in terms of law, entirely in the discretion of the Chief Magistrate, now the Secretary for the Interior. Factors taken into consideration in assessing the merits of each application including those of close relatives , are –

(i) the age of applicants, the number of years he has been married and has paid local tax and the number of dependants he has to support ; -350-

REPLY : The

Department

does

not

employ assistant

engineers . MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply I think the hon. Minister does not really understand the question , because I am asking about the training of assistant engineers. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, my reply is final and I do not see why I should elaborate.

QUESTION 107: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "Is the honourable Minister prepared to employ at least one geologist for qualified drilling for water in betterment areas?"

"Why needlework is not conducted in the same manner as was done in the Cape and requisitioned for?" REPLY : If the honourable member is alluding to the system whereby schools placed their orders on the Central Store, I have to state that this system is uneconomical and it is for this reason that such a system is not followed by my Department.

REPLY : No.

QUESTION 108: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Does the honourable Minister know that if more than one person from different parts arriving at the forest are issued with one ticket and as they do • not leave at the same time those who fail to produce the ticket get into trouble and pay a fine? " REPLY : Owing to a temporary shortage of licence forms it was necessary, for a brief period only, to issue one licence to several persons. The Department is not aware of any persons included on such a licence having been prosecuted.

QUESTION 109: Miss Lillian Education:-

Twetwa

asked the

Minister of

"Would it not be of more advantage for girls in the secondary schools to be taught Domestic Science and Needlework instead of Agriculture?"

REPLY : Yes. The Department is already thinking on these lines but practical difficulties such as the lack of suitably qualified teachers and specialised accommodation and equipment prevent the wholesale or immediate introduction of such courses in every school.

QUESTION 112: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister ofFinance:"How many registered taxpayers are there in the following tribal authorities;(a) Moshesh Tribal Authority; (b) Bakoena Tribal Authority; (c) Lupindo Tribal Authority; (d) Zibi Tribal Authority; (e) Ludidi Tribal Authority; (f) Magadla Tribal Authority; (g) Sibi Tribal Authority; (h) Mzongwana Community Authority; (i) Makhoba Community Authority; (i) Malubalube: Community Authority; (k) Nkosana Community Authority; (1) Upper Tsitsana Community Authority; (m) Lower Tsitsana Community Authority; (n) Any other community authority not covered under this question in the Maluti Region? " REPLY: The honourable member is referred to my reply to question No. 74 on the 1st June, 1966. Separate figures in respect of individual tribal/community authorities are not available. QUESTION 113: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :(a) "When is the meat processing and deboning factory starting to function? (b) What is the estimated number of cattle to be killed each day? (c) Each month? (d) Each year? (e) How are the cattle slaughtered to be replaced as I presume the birth rate will be less than cattle slaughtered? (f) Has any stock for the factory been bought outside the Transkei ? If so, how many head of cattle were bought? What is the average price paid for stock bought in the Transkei and outside the Transkei?"

MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply I would like to ask the hon. Minister why it is that the Department of Education always contemplates doing a thing and never does it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not prepared to answer foolish questions.

QUESTION 110 : Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:(a) "If he is aware that some plantations are closed for over 6 months? (b) In this case what could be used as firewood during these months? (c) Is he aware that people suffer as a result of scarcity of building poles? "

REPLY : Beginning of August. 25. 500. 6000 . The present birth rate is approximately 30 times higher than the proposed rate of slaughtering and should therefore be more than adequate. (f) Yes. Approximately 600. This was as a result of a misunderstanding on behalf of the Bantu Investment Corporation and has since been discontinued.

(a) (b) (c) (d) (e)

REPLY : (a) Yes. (b) Where the authorities have in the past always wanted to establish plantations the people have generally opposed it. It is therefore unreasonable to imply that the Goverment is to be blamed for the shortage of wood. (c) Yes. That is why woodlots are established but unless an administrative area is planned it cannot be done for fear of taking up land that should be used for other purposes. QUESTION 111; Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Education:-

(i) Average price in Transkei (ii) Average price outside Transkei

R52 R52

QUESTION 114: Miss Lillian Twetwa asked the Minister of Agri-

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culture and Forestry:(a) What is the purpose of having ladder steps over fences in rehabilitated areas instead of kiss gate s? (b) Does the honourable Minister approve of women getting up on these ladders with a bucket full of water or a heavier load on their heads? (c) Why are these ladders placed so far apart?"

REPLY: (a) Kiss gates are expensive to construct and the people train their sheep and goats to negotiate them thus defeating their object. (b) The "ladders ” are not really difficult to negotiate with loads, but the Department has evolved a " foot grid" which serves the pur pose well and is in use in some areas. (c) The "ladders " are placed, in consultation with the inhabitants of an area, at convenient spots with due regard to the needs of the people residing in the various residential areas.

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QUESTION 115: Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of the Interior:(i) "Is it true that Building Societies cannot lend money to Africans who want to buy or build houses in Transkeian zoned areas without permits from the Republican Minister? If so, why? (ii ) Have there been permits granted to Building Societies since zoning, if not why not?"

3. Permits in terms of the provisions of Proclamation No. R336 are granted by the Minister for Bantu Administration and Development and issued by the office of the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development in Pretoria. My Department has no record of such permits. Consequently, despite a diligent attempt to obtain it I am unable to furnish the desired information. If no such permits have been issued to Building Societies and the reason would be that if White controlled Building Societies were permitted to acquire interest in land in terms of the Proclamation it would be tantamount to permitting continued White ownership and occupation in a reserved area and so defeat the objects of zoning.

AFTERNO ON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill. In view of the fact that the Bill just tabled has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, I now also table a recommendation by the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128 that the Bill be considered by the Assembly. I now move that the Bill be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to.

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REPLY : 1. Proclamation No. R336 of 31/12/65 defines "Interest in land" as including in addition to other interests in land, any right which any person has under a lease or mortgage bond or a servitude or a charge over land. ”

2. Section 4 of the proclamation provides that no person other than (i) The Government of the Transkei ; (ii) The Xhosa Development Corporation; (iii) The Bantu Investment Corporation ; (iv) The Trust; (v) A citizen or citizens either individually or in partnership or association shall acquire land or an interest in land in a reserved area except with the written approval of the Minister and subject to such conditions as he may impose .

The Bill was read a first time. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, it is proposed that the Bill be read for the second time on Wednesday, 15th June, or so soon thereafter as possible. TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT

BILL :

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Authorities Amendment Bill, 1966 be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time.

"Minister" means the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.

It is therefore clear that Building Societies cannot lend money to Africans to build or buy in reserved (zoned) areas as they are not amongst the persons specifically enumerated in section 4 of the Proclamation as being a person entitled to acquire an interest.

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Building Societies are White controlled and when lending money would secure the loan by means of a mortgage bond and in doing so would be acquiring an interest in land in a reserved (zoned) area which they are precluded from doing without the written permission of the Minister for Bantu Administration and Development .

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AMENDMENT TO CONSTITUTION : MOTION NO. 2. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , hon. members , I move:paramount chiefs and hon.

"(i) that this Assembly considers withdrawing Motion No. 2 which was agreed to earlier this session; and (ii) that in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of recommending to the Republican Govemment that (a) section 25 of the Transkei Constitution Act be substituted by the following :-

(1) "The total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time exceed 64 and if any paramount chieftainship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo , Gcaleka, Nyanda or Qaukeni regional authority area or in any other district, the number of chiefs representing the district affected shall be reduced correspondingly. (2) Where by reason of the provisions of sub-section (1) or in consequence of an increase in the number of chiefs in any district one or more chiefs in such district are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly, the person or persons so to be excluded shall be determined by secret ballet at a meeting of the chiefs in the district affected to be convened by the Chairman of the Assembly; Provided that if no majority can be reached at such meeting a meeting of the paramount chief, if any, and chiefs in the region shall be convened by the Chairman for the purpose of determining the person or persons to be excluded. (3) Meetings convened in terms of sub-section (2) shall be held before candidates for any general election are to be nominated, and (b) that section 26 of the Transkei Constitution Act be substituted by the following:The 26 districts in the Transkei shall be electoral divisions for the election of the 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters in the various divisions, provided that each district shall have at least one member; and provided further that it shall be permissible for a registered voter in a district to contest the election in any other district situate within the same region . "

That is the average per member, and now we find that there are districts that have less that 20,000 voters so we added this proviso: " provided that each district shall have at least one member" - to make sure that every district will be represented. For example, Xalanga in Emigrant Tembuland I am certain has less that 20,000 voters. It is one of the the smallest districts in the Transkei . As section stands at present the districts that have less than 20,000 would not be represented so that the districts shall have one, two, three or up to four representatives in this House according to the number of voters . Those districts that have not got the minimum number should be represented. That is all , Mr. Chairman , and I think that is clear. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Just to clarify further, Mr Chairman, I come from a district that is quite safe not like Xalanga. You use the words "at least" and people might feel that if the district is not represented they are free to do that. Is that the idea? I mean, a district like Xalanga for instance · if the people in the district are not represented, let them not be represented. Are they free to do that? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, the minimum is one, even in Xalanga. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that it is only equitable that every district should be represented in this House and we feel that at least each district should have a member, although we know that some districts will have more members than one. MR. RAJUILI: And supposing there is nobody considered capable from that district? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They will go for instance to St. Mark's district. Some of the districts are so small that they cannot be equal with the big districts . The biggest districts are Engcobo and Lusikisiki. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just wish to second the hon. the Chief Minister as this was done in consultation . If a district does not want a representative the law requires that it should have a representative and if they refuse to go to the ballot then anybody nominated in that district is automatically elected into the Assembly.

Mr. Chairman, there is nothing contentious in this motion as it was considered by the Assembly some weeks ago. I will only draw the attention of the House to the legal flaws which were found after the motion had been passed. I will refer the members to section 25 (1 ) of the clause to be amended in the Transkei Constitution Act. We merely omitted the words " Emigrant Tembuland" which should not be there. It was a constitutional mistake to include it because it is included in the words "whether in addition to those existing" in the regions which are given here, so it should not have been there at all. Inserting those words made the constitutional provision defective and so you will all appreciate my point of view.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Supposing there are two nominees? MR. GUZANA: Then we will rake up ten voters and one nominee will get six votes and the other four and that is the end of it. Mr. Chairman, we would like this matter to be expedited. The motion as amended was carried unanimously. TRANSKEI CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE.

Now with regard to section (2) there is nothing much in that except that the election will only be made by those chiefs in that district, and the paramount chief can only take part in the elections in the district where he resides.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House sits in committee. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second .

In regard to section 26, we have added a provision at the end of the section as it was because we found that the minimum number of voters for the 45 members who are elected is 20,000 for one member.

Agreed to.

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House in Committee ,

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I beg to report that the Transkei Co -operative Societies Amendment Bill has been passed by the committee without amendment.

On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this is a very short Bill indeed and I have no doubt that with the approval of the House it will not take more than three minutes. There is no need for motivation because the motivation as such was contained in my second reading speech. I therefore move the adoption of clause 1 .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The third reading will take place tomorrow, Mr. Chairman . SUSPENSION OF PROCLAMATION R.400. The debate was resumed.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister referred us to his second reading speech and there was so much nonsense in it that we have forgotten what it was. The Minister wants to know if it was his fault. If there was nonsense in it then. he is guilty of the nonsense.

MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am standing up to support this motion and I am very sorry to say that I do not understand the amendment by the hon . Mr. Sihele. The purpose of the motion is to suspend Proclamation R.400 forthwith . Now this Proclamation was intended , and is still intended, to be used in time of emergency when the State is at a stage of unrest or disorder.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not know whether I am wrong when I say I was present when he gave an explanation on clause 1 , but I request the hon . Minister please to motivate on that clause.

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THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Through your intimidation . MR. DIKO: In fact it is a martial piece of legislation. Now what I wish the man who has moved the amendment to make clear to this House is whether the Transkei is in a state of emergency at the moment. The nonsense he is talking about of protecting the chiefs · protecting them against what?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I motivate on this short Bill, which is a record ofa laconic bill composed of only eleven words . The position is that there is an Act of Parliament passed by the Republican Government to govern these co-operative societies. It is so long (I remember it is composed of 120 clauses ) and we agree with it as far as this is concemed, but the main snag in regard to the application of the Act in the Transkei was that in our case the funds for the establishment of these credit societies come from the Govern ment, and so it was found necessary that the Govemment should have some control on its part and have certain experts · for instance, in regard to auditing and so on · until such time as these cooperative societies are able to stand on their own feet, and so this amendment was made so as to allow the Department to appoint these officers . It is in connection with the election of directors , where in ordinary co-operative societies the directors are elected annually by the co-operative and the Government has no say, so that in this case we want at the very inception of this to have these directors appointed by us .

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Doubt! MR . DIKO : So if the chiefs have to be protected against Doubt why not use the ordinary common law which deals with murderers? There is the common law which is there to protect a chief or an ordinary citizen when there is something against his life. So we must understand that we are only against this piece of legislation because there is no state of emergency . I want to emphasize that.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : All the clauses that related to the state of emergency were suspended. MR. DIKO: Now I wish the members of the House to be most reasonable in considering this motion. My hon . chief is standing there as if I am the man who spoke about the chiefs. It is the mover of the amendment who says this is to protect the chiefs .

CHIEF MAJEKE : Did you use the word “ credit societies"?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He said the Transkei THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : These are co-operative societies . It is not out of the question to use the term "credit" . CHIEF D.D.P.

NDAMASE :

Mr.

people. MR. DIKO: As far as I know, chiefs are always protected because they have their subjects to protect them. So we must just look a little deeper into the purpose of this Proclamation . Why keep it at this moment of peace and order in the Transkei? You

Chairman, I

would like this matter clarified. It appears that this Bill is amending a law which was piloted by the Minister of Social Welfare in the Republic. I quite understand you are trying to arrange....

know, as I do, that the only reason why this piece of legislation is still kept in the Transkei is to maintain the status quo which somebody else spoke about the other day in this very House. What is that status quo? It is the White superiority and Black inferiority. (Interjections) Now you are actually endeavouring to tell us, and we wish to believe that you wish the Transkei to be a free and independent state. Now if you want the people of the Transkei to be free and independent, why apply martial law? This law is necessary when there is disturbance , unrest and disorder in a state . Now I wish any

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I am afraid the hon. member over there is lost. He should have asked that question during the second reading. Clause 1 put and agreed to.

Clause 2 put and agreed to. The whole Bill put and agreed to.

member of the Government party will actually make that point very clear to us. I know most of you enjoy

House Resumed , -354-

this piece of legislation because they do not know the implications of it and the difficulties undergone by those people who are so unfortunate as to have been detained. The hon. Mr. Mpondo has quoted to

observe those regulations. In any case what I was trying to emphasize is that legislation is there for the good and for the benefit of members of a society in a state. It must give protection. It must give freedom. It must grant equal rights to all citizens of that particular state. So the biggest emphasis on the request that this law should be suspended is that it only gives powers which are undemocratic . Now I will quote, for the benefit of the hon. members .of the House, section 14 (1) of Proclamation R.400 of 1960, dated November 30. Now you must note that the powers we are objecting to are that the Minister may without prior notice to any person issue an order against any person prohibiting such person from entering into, being in or remaining in any area or departing from the Transkeian Territories or from any part of such Territories as may be specified in such order for such period as the Minister may determine....

you some of the most inhuman clauses of this particular Proclamation . In so far as the African people are concerned, not at any stage in our history has a chief ever been a dictator, so I would not understand and I would , not think that there is a chief in this House who wishes to be given powers to deal with his subjects without mercy. If the hon. mover of the amendment was aware of the quotations made by the hon. Mr. Mpondo, a chief is given powers to punish his people without reasons. That is given here. You are right. You see, I omitted to mention one thing. The hon. Mr. Sihele has talked of murderers and all sorts of things. He forgets that he is the biggest murderer of them all. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order I think that should be withdrawn . The hon. Mr. Sihele has never been charged even with assault. I think that statement should be withdrawn, unless he can quote from a written document to show that Mr. Sihele has murdered somebody.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But all those clauses have been suspended, from section 14. They were all lifted after the Pondoland disturbances . MR. DIKO: Now I am quoting relevantly. May the hon. the Chief Minister state specifically by what regulation was I detained because I maintain that I was detained under this clause which says that the Minister can put you into prison for any amount of time without giving any reason for it and that happened just because the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, perhaps , has something against me and does not want me at Qaukeni. Then he can go and say any rotten things about me so as to get rid of me from Qaukeni area and away from the councils of the Paramount Chief. So this clause gives people a chance who have petty quarrels and differences to go and blacken the name of any innocent citizen in the Transkei. (Interjections ) The people have a night-mare of Ahrenstein and Vigne or somebody else....

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, when the hon. Mr. Sihele used that word I asked him to withdraw, so I think you should withdraw too. MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the words that he is the biggest murderer and say that he must allow a commission to be appointed by this House to go and investigate the case of the two men who were in hospital, who were thoroughly flogged by him at Qamata . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , that is a reflection on the character of the hon . member. (General uproar) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. Hon . members , I want to draw your attention to rules 39 and 40. You must read them for yourselves. I will not do it for you.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Your leader visited Ahrenstein last week.

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MR. DIKO: ....but most of us do not care for Ahrenstein. We have our common sense and we have our ideas and our principles.

MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am trying to be the biggest moderate in this House and am continually interfered with by the Chairman of the House.

C MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I take strong exception to this irresponsible remark and I ask the member to withdraw. I will further challenge him to utter those words outside this House.

THE CHAIRMAN : You should speak on the motion, hon . member. MR. DIKO: I am on the motion, Mr. Chairman. I say the purpose of this legislation is to give men like Mr. Sihele the opportunity to do exactly as they like with ordinary citizens. They assault them and do exactly as they like, and they are quite inhuman. In an ordinary,peaceful state....

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I beg to withdraw unconditionally, Mr. Chairman.

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MR. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, I wish the hon. members to pay very particular attention to this piece of legislation . I am speaking on behalf of the people of the Transkei the ordinary man in the street. There is no intention on my side or anybody else's side to try and ingratiate myself with the powers that be.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , this is an imputation. The hon. member says the hon. Mr. Sihele has assaulted people. This is an imputation on his character. He cannot quote anything to substantiate what he says . He should withdraw that. Mr. Sihele has never appeared in any court, Mr. Chairman.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But according to the evidence given on tape you were involved.

THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member heard me draw the attention of members to rule 40. If he does not follow that I shall have to take further steps .

MR. DIKO: What I quoted there shows that this piece of legislation definitely gives powers to people which they should not have, and I want to voice my heart appreciation to the Security Branch. Had it not been for the members of the Security Branch, I might tell you, most of the citizens ofthe

MR. DIKO: I have accepted the caution by the Chairman on rules 39 and 40. I will continue to

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If we were irresponsible we would have locked up a number of you then. MR. DIKO: So most of the members of the House and the Ministers unfortunately will take it for granted that this rumour that goes round the Territory is a vital piece of information on which they can act. Allow me to further quote what is most dangerous in this piece of work. Section 16 says : "No civil action whatsoever in respect of any cause of action arising out of or in connection with the operation of these regulations shall be capable of being instituted against the State or a Minister of State or any officer or employee of the State or chief or▸ headman ." Now just imagine when a chief or a headman or a policeman gives information falsely against a citizen and when it has been investigated and found to be false then the man is not allowed

should you subject an ordinary law-abiding citizen to such conditions? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: How did he get there? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Come back to Proclamation 400. MR. DIKO: That is what I am talking about . I challenge you to give us what other law puts men innocently into prison if it is not Proclamation 400. Worse still, these men will not be allowed to be visited or to write to their families . Imagine , when his family goes to see that poor unfortunate man and they are refused permission. Those sections I have read to you are not protecting the chiefs and even the Ministers are not protected by this Proclamation. What people should realise, to sum up what I have been saying, is that the purpose of Proclamation 400 is to prevent any argument or any debate or any refusal to be subjected to an inferior status. A citizen must voice his opinion freely against the State. It is a sword hanging over the heads of the citizens of the Transkei so as to quieten them because the powers that be do not want the truth to be put forward in its naked form. A state where you have to keep a race subject under another race has gone permaneltly. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Under separate development.

to sue him and to claim damages . Don't you realise these are Gestapo methods? Most of you have not read Mein Kampf, but this thing has been manufactured and brought about by Hitler. In any case what I want to draw to the attention of the hon . the Minister of Justice while he is gossiping with his brother is that if he is going to keep this dirty piece of legislation in the State , may he kindly build concentration camps apart from the ordinary prisons . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The prisons can still take many more. MR. DIKO: No, what I want to draw your attention to is that you have never been in your prisons and you have not taken the trouble to go and see how those detainees are being kept in that particular cell. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : They got themselves there. MR. DIKO: I want to give you a picture . First of all a man is thrown into a cement cave . The floor and the walls and ceilings are cement. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Whose fault is it they are there? MR. DIKO: It is the fault of the informer, so when you get a man whom you do not know whether he is accused rightly or wrongly, the conditions of living must be nearer what he is used to at his ordinary home. The present prison or goal is there for a criminal who has been convicted in a court of law, so I wish the hon . the Minister of Justice to make conditions at least very near human , Secondly, you find people in those prisons , in those caves , are given ordinary cooked mealies. I mean ordinary "mbona", and in most cases those mealies have got weevils , stones and all sorts of things in them. To go further, you will find that they are given dirty blankets which have lice, most of them. Why

MR. DIKO: You want separate development unfortunately without understanding its implications . Separate development means that you will live perpetually under the yoke of the White man , so we are asking you to repeal this law so as to allow people to put their views across without being victimized. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have not much to say this afternoon because I notice that the speakers on the other side have exhausted themselves . We have had this motion over and over again for three years now, and each time it has been turned down by this side . I was surprised when the hon. mover, Mr. Mpondo , spoke of a police state where people were not allowed to express themselves against the Government and I wonder what sweet things he said about the Government during his speech . If he has forgotten he should just consult the Daily Dispatch for that date and if he were in any other country he would have been locked behind iron bars , if at all it was a police state . But what strikes me is that the Daily Dispatch , which often supports the opinion of the Opposition and makes favourable comments as far as they are concerned, was strangely silent about the withdrawal or otherwise of R.400 . He speaks of diabolical legislation , satanic clauses and so on, and what more could he have said, against the Government? But I will just ask one question from the Opposition which supports this motion. Have they got any mandate from the White people that this should be withdrawn , in their multi- racial attitude? I would be surprised if they had got that, forthe Bashee murders are still fresh in their minds . (Interjections) The Clarkebury murder is only a year old and there is this case which has just been concluded the conspiracy against the Paramount. Chief of Emigrant Tembuland, which is still fresh in our minds and when we investigate these cases we invoke Proclamation R.400 . Have you forgotten these atrocities and do you want a state where -

1

Transkei would have been in prison. Fortunately the men of the Security Branch are well trained and they do their work most diligently. They are not there to please either the Minister of Education or the Minister of Agriculture. They are there to find out the truth of the allegations placed against people's names. So I wish that the hon. Minister would have undergone such training, to know the importance of every individual and every human being in a state ; to know that the fundamental basis of justice is that every man is innocent until he is proved guilty.

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anybody can just do as he likes? centage of people who have been Proclamation? Is it not these few anti- social people? You want us wild in the Transkei so that we

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: What sympathy have you got for those people who have been responsible for killing people and making others homeless? Can you tell me what interest you have in them, because after all when they behave themselves they are allowed to retum home. The hon. Mr. Mda and myself were once victims of a disturbance and we lived with the police in Bizana for a considerable time and the Government , the good Goverment of the Republic....

What is the perdetained by this culprits who are to let them run should have no

tourists coming from outside the Transkei, no dignified way of living in the Transkei. Before I go much further I shall please ask the mover if the White people with whom he wants to make a multiracial society are in agreement with him. The percentage of those people who have run foul of Proclamation 400 is so small that it is even below .001 .

MR. DIKO: You are right - good Goverment of the Republic - but what about yours?

MR. RAJUILI: Evil remains evil, no matter how small.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....it gave them subsistence allowance.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: If you make a cross-section of those who do speak

OPPOSITION MEMBER: It gave you subsistence allowance .

on the other side, it is only those members who have fallen foul of this Proclamation some time or another I am looking at them now, particularly those I know come from Eastern Pondoland , All of them have fallen foul of R.400 . (Interjections) You have come from gaol and if at all it is a police state they would not be in this House. They were given time to prove their innocence if they were innocent at all. They had Ahrenstein to defend them, the confirmed Communist, because you know Nogcantsi and Nkosiyane visited Ahrenstein . Why did they leave all these attorneys in the Transkei? Why did they leave their leader? It is because they got their inspiration from Durban which is the gateway to Russia, North Africa and to Ghana where communism prevails. Now coming home again , I would like to refer very specifically to members from my area. Take, for instance, the hon . Mr. Mda , Walter Madikizela, Mr. Bubu , Mr. Diko - do the hon. members from Qaukeni region mean to tell me that all is quiet, or are they pleasing their colleagues whom they left behind, who voted them into the House, because they know that 1968 is coming nearer and then they will have done nothing for the people? Well, I can at least give credit to one hon . member, Mr. Walter Madikizela, for he has been successful in persuading the Paramount Chief to give a free , kingly pardon to some of the people whose homes had been bulldozed because those people showed by their behaviour that they had repented of their ill deeds, with the exception of just one or two, but they will not bring him into the House in 1968 because they are so few. Now I am asking, is it all quiet in Pondoland?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No , I did not apply for it. It gave him and his family....

MR. C.S. MDA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairmost unfortunately for this man. Unfortunately House, we have an irresponsible Minister. I ask him through you, Mr. Chairman , to withdraw that because it is not correct.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : Your father's kraal was set on fire, wasn't it? MR. MDA: I never received any subsistence from the Government as a result of the disturbances in Pondoland.

THE CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. member withdraw? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman , but he is the heir to one Mr. W.G.A. Mda who received this allowance through my intercession from the Government, and compensation was paid for the buming of his kraal, and also there were transactions under R.400 for property that had been stolen from his kraal . (Interjections) It is only last month that my hon. friend used R.400 to recover his plough which had been stolen six years before, during the disturbances, otherwise the case would have been compounded. (Interjections) Now the plough is still at the magistrate's office to show how recent this affair is and when he has recovered the plough he wants to do away with Proclamation R.400. (Laughter) After he has got the compensation from the Govemment which is thousands of rand he wants to do away with R.400, and this money from which he got compensation was a levy under Proclamation R.400. Were it not for Proclamation R.400 this levy would not have been made from which he has benefited to that extent I mean his father and other victims of the distur bances. And, Mr. Chairman, I must point out again that it is wrong for the mover to say that if people are not allowed to voice their opinion because of R.400 then they will burst and do evil . Perhaps he does not know the circumstances under which this proclamation was imposed, because it was imposed to curb the disturbances which had been going on for almost a year, and it was only then, after the application of this Proclamation , that the disturbances were finally arrested.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes, it is quiet.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I have just got information that one of the people who had been deported has just been murdered . The man was called Sibondo Viya and all those who know Xhosa knowthat it means a trouble-maker , but unfortunately for Sibondo Viya he repented and perhaps unfortunately for him he gave information which would never otherwise have been disclosed, of the activities of these people..... OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Which people? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: .... and so last Monday night he was found murdered by the road. I understand (I rang Bizana yesterday) that some people had been apprehended under Proclamation R.400 . Now are you only thinking of yourselves, and not of the poor victims?

MR. DIKO: Are the disturbances still going on?

MR. DIKO: What about common law?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Did you

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not hear me when I spoke of Sibondo Viya? Incidentally he is the "induna" of the hon. Mr. Walter Madikizela. I would like to know if he does not want us to investigate that case..... OPPOSITION MEMBERS : The case must be investigated under ordinary law. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....because we cannot do it under common law. He is his "induna" because he is the man who was instrumental in having my papers dumped into the dipping tank. (Laughter) OPPOSITION MEMBER: Did you kill him? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I did not kill him. He was serving my chief. He was killed by commoners because so many cases came from information he gave , and you gotyour plough through him . Now don'tyou want his case to be investigated? In conclusion, Mr. Chairman , I will refer to the story which I often give in this House where crows saw a windmill swinging its arms round and round, and they thought that windmill was very dangerous until an old crow asked: But does the windmill ever leave its place and chase crows? They had to admit that it never left its place, and the old crow then said they should keep out of harm's way by keeping away from the windmill. I am giving the same advice to you, like that old crow. (Laughter) Keep out of harm's way; keep out of the windmill's reach and you will never land in gaol. Let those people languish in gaol those who deserve to be, unless you instigated them to go to gaol - but if not, keep out of harm's way. Leave Proclamation 400 to be used against these anti-social people and remember that freedom of speech , Mr. Mover, is not freedom to kill. You will never get that licence in this Government. What do you want to say more? You say you are not allowed to speak to your people, but the Proclamation provides that if you want to say something genuine to your people you must go and get your permit from the chief and the magistrate , and then even the police can attend a public meeting. But you do not do so. You would rather have meetings with Ahrenstein at night.

things decided on our behalf? and what right has So-and-so to decide these things for us without our knowledge, and who appointed So-and-so to decide these things on our behalf? It is a historical fact that the van Heerden Commission did concede to certain deficiencies in the Bantu authorities set-upat the time. It considered for instance that the representation of the people in those authorities had not been from the people. The people had had no part in electing the representatives who were supposed to represent them in those authorities. If we may remind you , Mr. Chairman, this very House is a concession as a result of those very disturbances that the people have got to play a part in the decision of their own affairs . We may agree with the policy of separate development or we may disagree with that policy , Mr. Chairman , but we on this side of the House feel constrained to admit the magnanimity of the authorities of the Republican Government in granting us the right to have a say in the affairs of our lives, the right that the people must participate in the affairs of their own govemment; and that right , Mr. Chairman, goes as far as allowing the freedom of association and the freedom of expression . To a certain extent one would say that freedom exists. The other side have argued that we are able to meet our electorate, but the fact of the matter is that we are compelled to seek a permit in order to meet our electors ; and not only that, we are now compelled to get that permit even through members of this same House - and opposition members, as far as we are concemed , of this same House . It will be observed, Sir, that during the general elections of 1963 the permit system was already in vogue, but it was very smoothly applied at the time. That was when a candidate had merely to go to the magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner for a permit and the permit was issued there and then. It has subsequently been made necessary that if I want a permit for a meeting, for instance, I have got to approach the Paramount Chief of my region to obtain his approval for the issue to me of a permit to hold the meeting. At once the motive of this Proclamation becomes , in that case, suspect. It becomes suspect in so far as it seeks to curb the free association of the elected with his electors. It becomes suspect in so far as it is used as an instrument of suppression of Opposition views .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Sit down. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We give you the permits. There are no more Native Commissioners.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Is the shoe pinching?

MR. MDA: There are magistrates. I quoted an instance once of a meeting I tried to hold , which failed because I was unable to obtain a permit to hold that meeting, and this same provision whereby I have first to get approval from the Paramount Chief in order that the magistrate can issue me the permit was the reason why it failed.

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon . memEbers, the motion before the House seeks the suspension of Proclamation R.400. We do not seek to deny that murders are still being committed in the Transkei. As a matter of fact, murders were committed in the Transkei before the inception of this Proclamation , in just the same way as murders are -1! still being committed in the Republic , but there is no Proclamation 400 to deal with the culprits . The ordinary law whereby murderers are arrested and

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We gave Mr. Raziya a permit in Emigrant Tembuland and he held his meeting.

tried and sentenced, if need be, is being applied there and we feel that the same measures should be applied in the Transkei where murderers , etc. , are concerned. Mr. Chairman, the fact of the matter is that the constitutional development of the African people in South Africa cannot be distinctly differentiated from the rest of the world. For instance , the recent disturbances in Eastern Pondoland the much-discussed 1960 disturbances · had as their centre the constitutional questions: Where are the decisions made on our behalf? By whom are these

MR. MDA: Now the issue is, if the Republican Government concedes that the African people must have some measure of democratic rights , some measure of representative govemment (and naturally that representative government will have a westem bias in that the Republican Government is a westem democracy), now will history record that we were wise men not only to grab that opportunity, but to use it as best to suit our people, democratically speaking; or will history point a finger at us and -358-

say that we were given an opportunity to show our hand under a constitution which had some vital

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is working now.

ingredients of democracy, but which showed a greater inclination towards despotism, dictatorship and greed, and that we betrayed a great incapacity to seize opportunity when it arose. Perhaps the tragedy of our time is the communist bogey , Mr. Chairman , and I sometimes do feel that it is rather a challenge upon us to meet that bogey and not to flinch back and hide behind a curtain of despotism , a curtain of dictatorship. I am, for instance, Mr. Chairman , responsible for the fact that the people of Eastem Pondoland accepted the principle of self-government in the Transkei .

MR. MDA: ....and according to a statement made by an hon . member in this House, it is a matter for regret that it was one of the best educated leaders of our time who opposed that . OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame!

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where was the Paramount Chief when you did that? MR . MDA: When the question of the draft Constitution for self-govemment was put before the people of Eastem Pondoland, naturally the people had to have a say as to whether or not they were accepting the whole proposition, and the opportunity was put to them by the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland to say whether or not they were in fact in favour of it. It was after a prolonged silence by the people that I stood up to propose that we accept this draft Constitution . (Interjections) Perhaps the hon . Mr. C.K. Madikizela , the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, was not at that meeting, but I dare say he was there as he is the right-hand man of the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland, but he felt he was too small for the occasion and the people of that region looked upon him with suspicion . Perhaps that is the reason why, when he speaks on a motion of this kind in this House, all the time he will be inclined to harp on personalities like the hon. Mr. Bubu and Mr. Diko and so on. Just before the general elections in 1963, we were invited to Durban by our electors in Durban - again the exercise of the necessary freedom of association, of meeting, of exchanging views - but unfortunately the hon. the Minister of Agriculture did not receive an invitation . (Interjections) That immediately will be found to be the reason why he all the time alleges that we are communistically inclined · because we are acceptable to the people of Durban and he is not. And by the way, the reason we accepted that invitation was because we felt the communist bogey was a challenge; we felt we had to go and tell our people in Durban not to associate themselves with communism . I lived in Durban for eight years, but I do not know the door of Mr. Ahrenstein's office , if I may tell you, and I have never seen his door because it does not interest me. I have nothing to benefit from Mr. Ahrenstein but my views I shall hold even if it does not please you. I shall express those views too , however much they may be unpleasing to you , and I shall fight for the right of other men to express their views , however much they may disagree with me. That is the essence of democracy , and perhaps that is why Dr. Verwoerd, when this same question was discussed in Pretoria , suggested that the numbers in this House of chiefs and elected representatives should be equal .

MR. MDA: This House is a challenge upon us, Mr. Chairman. It is a challenge for us to educate our people on democratic govemment but this Proclamation 400 defeats that; and while we do not condone murderers, and while we do not condone thieves, those must not however be sustained at the expense of the people getting freedom . (Interjections) In an article which I have here, Mr. Chairman, there is a description of police being disarmed and robbed in their own station . That was at Peddie in the Ciskie where Proclamation 400 is not applied. I suppose if it had happened in the Transkei it would be cited as a reason why Proclamation 400 must be retained here. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Certainly. MR. MDA: The hon. the Minister of Agriculture says "Certainly" . A more irresponsible Minister of State will hardly be found, Mr. Chairman . How, for instance, will the Republican Government deal with these people who went and attacked the police at their own station in the Republic? Why can we not deal with the murderers in the same way that they are going to be dealt with in the Republic? Why can the police not arrest the people who murdered the man the Minister of Agriculture referred to just now? Why must we retain a law that deals not only with murderers and thieves, but also curbs the freedom of the people? And by the way, there is no legal entrenchment for this Proclamation in the Transkei Constitution Act. It is not provided for, for instance, in the Transkei Constitution Act and perhaps the time may come when we shall have to take it up directly with the Republican Govemment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : In what capacity? MR. MDA: In the capacity of people of the Transkei and as the elected members of this House. So that it must be clear, Mr. Chairman , that whilst we fight for the repeal of Proclamation 400 we do not do so in order to condone or even encourage or even to accept communism , but we want it repealed so that we may be able to meet people freely and tell them how communism is a danger to them.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But Nkosiyane introduced a communist to you.

MR. MDA : To me?

C THE CHIEF MINISTER: To some of you. Where can we draw the line? MR. MDA: What line?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Nkosiyane belongs to your party and he mixes with communists.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That is not true. MR. MDA: He might have been eager that his policy in the Transkei might be applied, and successfully applied. He was however prepared to see democracy work in the Transkei....

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MR. MDA: The fact of the matter is that perhaps a communist is an associate of the members on the other side. At the time of speaking, maybe some of their own members are friends of communists. (Interjections) But despite that fact and irrespective of that, our concem and the challenge we

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the Bill before the House. Existing legislation does not provide adequately for present conditions in the Transkei. Furthermore the administration of agricultural matters is governed by a wide range of Acts , Proclamations and Govemment Notices which as such is rather cumbersome.

must meet is to be able to tell our people freely.... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Who are your people? MR. MDA: ....not to accept communism , but at the same time our people must not be thwarted from freedom of expression . We must not be failures at the very first time of asking to show that we can be democratic. I have just set an example of how I persuaded the people of Eastem Pondoland to accept the draft Constitution , and at my instance this was accepted in Eastem Pondoland . The Paramount Chief was very sore but he was powerless to get the people to accept it. He had to put it to the people and to ask the views of the people .... PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman . The hon . member said I was powerless and he was powerful. What does he mean? MR. MDA : In my statement I say the Paramount Chief had to put it to the people whether or not they were accepting self-govemment in the Transkei and it was for the people to indicate that they were accepting it or not accepting it. It was not his duty to come here and say that the people of Eastem Pondoland had accepted it when he knew, for instance, that they had not accepted it , and he was big enough to afford the people that opportunity and it was right of him to do so . He did the correct thing, so that we are actually instruments of the chiefs, Sir. We do not exist at the expense of the chiefs or to their detriment. All that the retention of this proclamation will do is to sow seeds of suspicion between the people and the chiefs . However much they dislike it, that is a fact.

The debate was adjoumed. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 15th June, 1966. WEDNESDAY, 15TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI CO-OPERATIVE SOCIETIES AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to propose the third reading of the Transkei Co-operative Societies Amendment Bill, 1966.

As can be seen from the title of the Bill it is quite comprehensive. The opportunity has been grasped to consolidate present legislation and to provide for matters previously not sufficiently provided for. The Bill aims at the positive and dynamic improvement of agriculture in the widest application of the word, and it empowers the Government to proceed with the development of the country's wonderful potential and to lead the people to progress . Basically the objects of the Bill are the conservation of all the natural resources and the proper development thereof. In bringing this Bill before the House I wish to state clearly and emphatically that the welfare of the country and the people as a whole, as a nation , is paramount. Therefore it is the duty of a responsible government to ensure that the wishes of the individual do not stand in the way of the progress of the whole country or, that they do not endanger the future of the country . The Goverment is duty bound to conserve its natural resources and to develop it to the lasting benefit of the inhabitants of the country. But then I do not lose sight of the fact that the individuals make a nation and it is accepted that every effort should be made also to improve the position of the individual, otherwise the nation will suffer. This very important aspect has been considered throughout the Bill and limitations or restrictions which may be imposed on the individual aim at the protection of the country as a whole, or to protect the individual against those who do not know their duty towards their fellowmen. The progressive and good farmer, the man who wishes to contribute to the well-being of the country, will find that he is encouraged and enabled to do so by this Bill. In the first instance provision is made for the implementation of soil conservation schemes and once this has been done the areas to which it has been applied become known as soil conservation areas . In this connection the Bill lays down that the people should be consulted through the tribal authorities whilst the inhabitants of the administrative area concerned are also allowed the opportunity to express their views on the matter and to raise any objections with the Minister. Another feature in the Bill which I want to stress is that proper provision is now also made for the private landowner. In the past it was very difficult, if not at all impossible , to give them much assistance. In future it will be possible for them to share in the benefits of soil conservation and to qualify for advances, rebates and subsidies . As in the past the execution of soil conservation works on Government land will be done by the Department. The maintenance of the works and the soil conservation measures embodied in such a scheme will in future, however , be the responsibility of the people concerned .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman .

Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL : SECOND READING . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman , honourable Paramount Chief and honourable members :

There is a generally and clearly felt need for

I also consider the proposed system of compensation for expropriated property as an important -360-

Bill and we should all know and realise that with

step forward. Where an owner feels that he has been treated unjustly he will be able to submit his case to proper arbitration.

this consolidated Bill , dealing comprehensively with all agricultural matters , we ourselves provide an instrument for our well-being and progress. Mr. Chairman I now move that the Bill be read a second time.

The Bill deals further with animal husbandry. Animal husbandry is of paramount importance in the Transkei and it is most essential that it should be developed along sound lines. It should, therefore, be possible for the Goverment to control the quality and the numbers of livestock. The natural grazing is the basis for the improvement of the livestock industry. As such it should be protected against destruction and it should be used in such a manner that the maximum benefit may be derived from it. The necessary precautions can be taken according to the stipulations in this Bill to safeguard this wonderful asset of the Transkei.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I second, Mr. Chairman . MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the House , I move an amendment:"That as the proposed Bill seeks to introduce far-reaching changes affecting the lives of the people in these Territories. (a) the Bill be referred to a select committee; (b) the select committee to place the subject matter of the Bill to the people of these Territories both on Government as well as privately owned land with a view to soliciting the view of the people on the proposed Bill , and (c) the select committee, after having canvassed the subject matter of the Bill and ascertained the views of the people thereanent in all the nine regions of the Transkei ; (d) report to this House at its next sitting whenthe intended legislation with proposed amendments and/or variations embodying the said views of the people of these Territories may be proceeded with ."

Proper provision is also made for the control of weeds. Weeds can have a very bad effect on agricultural production. Very harmful weeds which threaten the agricultural economy may be declared as harmful weeds by the Minister and will have to be eradicated. In cases where the position has developed to such a stage that in the opinion of the Department the interests of the country are seriously threatened and where it is beyond the means of the people to effect the necessary control, the Department will be in a position to render assistance . The Bill further provides for the Minister to make the necessary regulations for the application of the law. It will be noticed that the principle of delegation is embodied in the Bill and adequate provision is made for delegation of powers by the Minister. Closely connected with this is the provision for the establishment or appointment of Boards and/or committees which the Minister may wish to assist him in various ways. It will for example be possible for him to appoint a committee in an administrative area, which will be responsible for carrying out all the measures of a soil conservation scheme. It is anticipated that the tribal authorities may play a very important part in this connection . Not only could they be used in an advisory capacity or as controlling body, but it will aslo be possible to delegate certain executive functions to them.

Mr. Chairman, it is a known fact that the people of these Territories are suspicious of the Government's intentions.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Which Govemment? MR. MDA: ....particularly in so far as this Govemment's plans are concemed as far as rehabilitation is concemed. During the short life of this Government various attempts have been made at intimidating the people into accepting rehabilitation . THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is not true. We have never done that.

Mr. Chairman and honourable Members, I am satisfied that this Bill provides adequately for the development and improvement of our natural resources. It sets the stage for great agricultural achievements and the conservation of our most precious asset . Those who wish to work and to progress will find it an instrument to assist them. Those who do not want progress or who do not realise that as one of a nation , one is not free to do anything that will harm the interests of the nation or threaten the welfare of everybody around him , may not like the Bill. There is no other way for us but to strive for progress and in this Bill we provide the ways for it.

MR. MDA : The hon . the Chief Minister says that is not true, but I have personal experience of a case where I had to intervene, where a report had been made to the magistrate in my district that a certain administrative area had accepted rehabilitation . People came to me to accompany them to the magistrate in order to find out whether or not such a report had in fact been made to his office. Shortly it transpired that such a report had been submitted to the magistrate that the people of the said administrative area had accepted rehabilitation . Subsequent to the explanation of these men to the magistrate that there had not been any meeting to talk about rehabilitation in the administrative area, the magistrate took it upon himself to convene a meeting of the administrative area referred to, to ascertain for himself whether or not that had been the position. It transpired at that meeting convened by the magistrate that there had never been any meetings about rehabilitation in that administrative area. So this House will see, and you will understand, that the intention to enforce rehabilitation has always been the intention ofthe Goverment or the hon . Minister of Agriculture

I do not contend that this Bill will give everybody immediate prosperity . Prosperity is not something that can be given to people. It is something which has to be worked for. Provided we are all prepared to do that, this Bill will allow us to prosper. We have to build for the future . It is wrong to sit and wait for things to be given to us. Proclamation 116 of 1949 is repealed by this

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and Forestry . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That is not ture. Where is that administrative area? MR. MDA: This Bill is not alleviating the suspicions of the people in this regard, Mr. Chairman , but rather it confirms those suspicions. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We still want to hear where that administrative area is. MR. MDA: The Proclamation under which the rehabilitation scheme was invoked is Proclamation No. 116 of 1949 it is as old as that · but rehabilitation has never been enforced. Our Govemment is in its third year of existence, and already they are making a positive move to enforce rehabilitation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is an irresponsible statement.

MR. MDA: The proposed legislation is a move in that direction .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What about the consultation and the committees? MR. MDA: The hon . Minister in his remarks just now said the Bill will help those who want to progress. It is a fact that I want to progress , but I must not progress at such breakneck speed as to dislocate the lives of the people in the country. I believe it is my duty to educate my people, no matter how slowly, but not to go at breakneck speed. If I fail to do that then there will be trouble. The masses of the people will definitely bring about trouble and I will have to take the responsibility for the trouble. As a leader of the people it is my duty to try to get them going and to be able to gauge the speed at which the people can effectively be moved in order that they may take whatever advantages of rehabilitation are proposed on their behalf. The contents of the proposed legislation are so severe in their impact upon the people that I dread the reaction of the people. In any case, if the Republican Government introduced the idea in 1949 and waited for so many years without enforcing rehabilitation , why can our Government not wait twelve months in order that the opinions of the people may be canvassed? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We cannot do that. MR. MDA: That is an admission that you are not working in the best interests of the people. The hon. Minister can tell this House no reason why he is not prepared to do that. After all, twelve months will not have any more disastrous results on the Transkei than at the present moment, but his failure to ascertain the views of the people on a matter that affects them so much might have disastrous results . I still wam him , (Interjections ) and on this particular point I wish to appeal to those members of the House , irrespective of which side they belong to , to realise that this is a matter on which the people will be affected very seriously .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Which people? You have not told us the administrative area you were talking about.

MR. MDA: In any case, my amendment does not seek to destroy the purpose of the Bill. It only seeks that the Minister should go to the people of the Territories to place before them the proposed provisions of this legislation and to solicit their views on those provisions and I believe that thereafter we shall be able to pass a bill which will be acceptable to the people. I move accordingly . MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , and hon. members, I second the amendment. THE CHAIRMAN : Before we proceed, hon . members , I think you had better look at rule 108 of the Gazette: "A member desiring to have a proposed amendment to a bill placed on the order paper, shall hand it to the Secretary not later then four o'clock p.m. on the day before that on which it is so to appear ."

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, that rule provides for an amendment to that is , a section may be sought the bill itself to be amended and the amendment to a section or sub-section required to be submitted before 4 p.m. the previous day. In this particular instance, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry has moved that this Bill be read a second time. That is a motion to which the hon . Mr. Mda seeks to make an amendment and the amendment is not subject therefore to rule 108 . THE CHAIRMAN : I would like to know to which section the hon. member refers in his amendment. MR. GUZANA: I refer to rule 106 (c) "by referring the subject matter of a bill to a select committee " . That is the intention of the amendment under rule 106. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , indeed this is a very important piece of legislation to the people of the Transkei - important in that it seeks to remove many of the burdensome provisions which have been applied to them by laws passed by the South African Government. I regret that the hon. member for Qaukeni who has just spoken on this Bill has not taken the trouble to read all these pieces of legislation . He has merely mentioned Proclamation 116 of 1949, but as you will see at the back of this Bill there are several Acts and Proclamations which have from time to time been passed by the Union Government and thereafter by the Republican Government , which apply equally to Black and White in this country. Since this Govemment came into power it is a gross untruth to say that it has attempted to apply forcibly the provisions of Proclamation 116 of 1949. MR . MDA: I gave you an example to substantiate my allegation . I said it happened in my district. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. member has quoted an instance of what happened in his district, but in doing so he implicates the Minister , yet Proclamation 116 gives these powers to the Native Commissioner who is now known as the Bantu Affairs Commissioner, and all the powers under this Proclamation are in the hands of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner, who is now the magistrate of the district. -362-

MR. MDA: But in this case , Sir, it was a report sent to the magistrate in my district. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: don't you give us names?

By

whom?

are concerned. The people do not want this Proclamation and it is this Proclamation that we seek to repeal and we are placing the onus on the people themselves. The people themselves should accept rehabilitation and all the powers are being placed in the tribal authorities in putting the effect of the law. Now if you say that the Govemment must not do that, then you say that the Government must not do anything in the interests of the people. We have at the back of this Bill a schedule of all the Acts

Why

MR. MDA: By the chief and his counsellors. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct, that is the position . If the chief in consultation with his people decides that his land be reclaimed you cannot put that blame on the Minister.

and Proclamations which apply to the people in so far as soil reclamation is concemed . The Govemment is trying by all means to make a law which the people will understand, to make a law which the people themselves will put into effect. Where have you ever seen a Government, before passing legislation, going to the people and asking them to make a law? What the Opposition is doing is trying to make political capital out of this. You behaved in the same manner in so far as the Flag Bill was concemed. You pretended to be co-operative but you tried to obstruct something that was in the interests of the people of the Transkei that

MR. MDA: The fact of the matter is that the chief, together with four of his counsellors, decided to approach the magistrate when there had been no discussion on the whole question. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But where does the Minister come in? They were acting according to the provisions of Proclamation 116. MR. MDA: Does that Proclamation say the people must not be consulted?

is, getting their own flag - because you want the Transkei to be a province of the Republic of South Africa. Now by delaying this piece of legislation you are creating hardships on the people because stock cannot be introduced into these areas unless the magistrate agrees to that. (Interjections)

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I put it to you that as far as this Proclamation is concemed there is no need for that. Section 4 of Procla mation 116 says the Minister may give notice in the Gazette to declare any land unit a betterment area after the Native Commissioner has explained the provisions of the Proclamation .

OPPOSITION MEMBER : I doubt very much if you have read this Bill.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: To whom?

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have also read it in fact we have gone through it. You have read it but you do not understand it because you cannot understand the phraseology .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: To the appropriate tribal or community authority established under the Bantu Authorities Act of 1957. MR. MDA: That was not done in that instance.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : We do . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Then why blame the Minister?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who explained it to you? You do not know the legal phraseology here. You should have come to me and I would have explained it to you . (Interjections)

MR. MDA: Which Minister? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Minister of Agriculture.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: If you had been an attorney you would have been the worst one in this country .

MR. MDA: I did not blame him . I blamed the the chief. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: As a politician you are able to twist things to suit your own point of view. MR. MDA: It is an established fact. It is on record.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is that you are a collection of people who try by all means to obstruct everything done in the interests ofthe people of the Transkei . You have told this House not once, but many times, that you want the Transkei to belong to the White people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The fact is that whenever people want rehabilitation in their area they are entitled to go to the magistrate and tell him they want rehabilitation and he must go and have a meeting in that location . (Interjections)

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Shame! THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now we are trying to remove all the legislation made by the White people for the Transkei and to make a law for the Black people for themselves, · a law that will be applied by the Black people. (Interjections) The Secretaries of our Departments are not Ministers and in so far as this Bill is concerned the Minister is at the top and he is a Black man.

MR. MDA: But I am telling you that was not done. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, you cannot argue with the hon. the Chief Minister while he is holding the floor.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: The Secretaries have drawn up the Bill for him, black as he is.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am not a witness in the box and you are not an attorney. As far as the Govemment is concerned we have the pulse of the people as far as the provisions of Proclamation 116

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Keep quiet. THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order.

-363-

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I will read for example some of the provisions of this Bill which show that the people of the Transkei cannot tolerate a situation of this nature. Section 5 of Proclamation 116 of 1949.....(Interjections) Keep quiet. You are owls. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think the hon . the Chief Minister should withdraw that. He may not call people owls. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was not referring to you but to the other section. MR. GUZANA: Even if he was, I think it is wrong and he should withdraw. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I withdraw, but all the same you are making a noise like owls . The section reads: "The Native Commissioner shall assess....(Interjections)

MR . here.

B.S.

RAJUILI :

The same provision is

twelve months . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who is going to advise us on the Opposition benches? You have no interest in this Government. You want the Transkei to be a province of the Republic. OPPOSITION irresponsibly.

MEMBER :

You

are

speaking

THE CHIEF MINISTER : As a matter of fact, you don't want this legislation at all. You want provincial regulations to apply. The important factor in this legislation is that it will remove all the difficulties under which the people have had to labour. MR. RAJUILI : And bring new ones .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The chiefs and their people will now have all the power, with the tribal authorities. MR. RAJUILI : Whose people are you?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , the Bantu authority will do that. MR.

RAJUILI :

The

principle

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You would like one man to be a dictator and tell the people what they should do.

is the same.

MR. RAJUILI:This is not Ghana.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The tribal authority will advise the Minister.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We would not like that situation to go on . We want the chiefs and their people to see to the interests of the people.

MR. RAJUILI : On the same principles . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, so that everything is thrust on the people themselves and not on one man . (Interjections) Mr. Chairman , I wish the hon. members across the floor would adopt another attitude to matters of this nature . They want to delay this legislation in order to go out and make political capital out of it. The people have got their own Govemment. The committee that can do this is on the Govemment side and we cannot co-operate with the Opposition because there are no brains on that side. (Laughter) The Govemment side will go through this Bill section by section.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: That is what we are doing. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You don't want chieftainship on that side . You have told us many times that you do not want the chiefs. That is why you are opposed to this legislation . You would like the magistrate to wield all the power, assess our stock and cull them without even consulting the tribal authorities . As far as we are concemed we have come to a tum of events . The Transkei belongs to the chiefs whom you do not want.

MR. RAJUILI : That is how you mislead the chiefs .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Where? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Never mind where. They will go through it section by section.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The chiefs , in consultation with their people, will work with their Government and not your Government. (Interjections) The principles of this Bill have been explained thoroughly by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. The hon . member for Qaukeni says this Bill contains far-reaching provisions which have never existed. That is an exaggeration . He cannot quote a single principle in this Bill which is not found in these acts and proclamations. He should not try and make political capital which is not in the interests of the people. Reading through this Bill there is nothing whatsoever to show that this Government has departed from what has been the intention of the Governments of the past, to see that the country is reclaimed. You take, for example , Act No. 45 of 1946.....

OPPOSITION MEMBER: That is Hitler's and Nkrumah's way of doing things . THE CHIEF MINISTER : We will act in the best interests of the people because you are not working for the people. You are working for White South Africa. You have told us that you do not want the Government of the Transkei and your attitude towards whatever the Govemment does is a reactional one which shows you have no interest in the people of the Transkei . Suppose the Goverment did not come forward with this consolidating legislation, all the laws you will find at the back here would apply.

MR.

MDA:

They have not been enforced. MR. RAJUILI : If there is no departure why not continue with what was there?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: They have been applied by the Minister. (Interjections) But we must have a law.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the Soil Conservation Act which applies to everyone in South Africa. All farmers with title deeds or certificates

5 OPPOSITION

MEMBERS:

We

say wait for -364-

of occupation are affected, and the provisions of that Act are harsher than the provisions which are contained in this very Bill. You do not know this Act. It surprises you that it applies also to the Transkei . When a law is made by the Govemment it does not mean to say that that law is going to be applied on that very day. It is planned for a future day and can be amended by future Governments to suit the conditions of the future.

ponsible youths. MR. MDA: I am not a youth.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What the Government in is a law that the people will underinterested is stand; a law that the people themselves will handle; a law that the owners of the land (the chiefs) will handle not your chiefs across the floor, the White chiefs .

OPPOSITION MEMBER: Whether it is applied or not does not affect the fact that it is bad.

MR. RAJUILI : There are no White chiefs here. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Govemment has not said it will apply this Act tomorrow. All it does is to repeal pieces of legislation. MR. MDA: Then why not appoint a select committee if it is not intended to apply this law tomorrow. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No Goverment can appoint a select committee to draft laws. We have our legal advisers to do that, but you want to have a situation where you and the rest of the Opposition can try and carry out your objective that there must be a stalemate in the Transkei and no progress made whatsoever, so that you can keep going to the people and saying : What has your Goverment done? They want to apply the provisions of Proclamation 116 of 1949 through the magistrate. We don't want that situation . We want the people themselves to handle reclamation measures. MR. RAJUILI : That we shall do even if you try and speed things up. We shall tell the people. That is our duty. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Unfortunately you live in Soweto . There is no soil conservation there . You are not interested in the land of the Transkei . MR. RAJUILI: I am representing the people here.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You were only elected because the people thought it was S.S. Rajuili . The people did not know you. They thought it was your brother. If they had known you they would not have elected you to this House. (Laughter) I want to show you and the country in general that you people on the Opposition benches are a conglomeration of agitators - people who have been in touch with the most ardent communists in the country. (Interjections) Yes, we have that on record, that a member of the Opposition introduced some of you to a communist and said: This is our communist friend. You have not replied to my question as to where we can draw the line. We would like a reply to that question . I am telling you that you are agitators and you are trying to obstruct everything done in the interests of the people, because this Bill talks about soil reclamation and then you want to give the impression that it is an oppressive piece of legislation , whereas in effect it is trying to remove all the oppressive provisions found in the former Acts and Proclamations. (Interjections) Unfortunately for you I have gone through all these Acts and their provisions, that is why it became necessary that we must have a consolidated, simplified Act which the people can understand. I am certain that the most reasonable members across the floor are not ad idem with what the hon . member has said, unless they are so weak as to be dragged along by irres-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : chiefs in this country .

You

want

White

MR. MDA: What have you got behind you there? (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Govemment party will go through this law section by section and try and advise the Minister as to what amendments he should agree to, and thereafter the Government party will see that this law goes through without considering any suggestions from ardent agitators. You can go to the country and try to make political capital out of it and pretend that you have people when you have none. OPPOSITION MEMBER: You have none. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people belong to the chiefs and not to you. The chiefs will better explain this piece of legislation because it is simpler than all these documents which you will find at the back. I have tried by all means to discuss the principles of this Bill and I am sure that the hon . members across the floor who are reasonable enough will be able to concur with me. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : If the hon. members intend carrying on with this discussion I will ask them to behave. If not, I will use my powers and send this to the vote immediately. I will not just adjoum as I did the other day because the time is short. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in seconding the amendment I want to do two things - that is , (1) to place our attitude (the attitude of the Opposition) towards the Bill and what we regard as the immediate task of the Assembly as a whole; and secondly I shall reply to the points raised or mentioned by the hon. the Chief Minister in the course of his debate . Firstly, I want to put it very clearly that at this stage the Opposition is not considering the provisions of the Bill. All we are doing is to move an amendment by which we seek to have more time at the disposal of the Assembly and the people of whom the Assembly is representative , to consider the principles of the Bill and the Bill itself in its entirety. The amendment seeks to say that the proposed legislation is so important that it should be given enough time for consideration by all the people concerned, whether they are in the Assembly here or outside. That is all the amendment seeks to do. On reading through the Bill it becomes a matter of general admission that it is very thorough-going in the changes it proposes to make. As I say, the Opposition is not at the moment proposing to reject the provisions of the Bill and therefore I see no reason why the hon. the Chief Minister should find himself so stirred up that he actually breathes heavily because he feels there is opposition to the -365-

ช

belongs to the chiefs.

Bill, because no opposition has yet been made. (Laughter) It is a fact that we admit generally on this side that he is the head of the Government and that it is his responsibility to see that progress

MR. BUBU: To say therefore that the land belongs exclusively to the chiefs is to mislead the chiefs . I therefore want to remove those words which are misleading, Mr. Chairman. As far as the amendment is concemed, the fact of the matter is that we are trying to appeal to the Govemment that this legislation should not be considered now, that it should be delayed , and that in the meantime the people should be advised as to what is contemplated and their views should be ascertained. The hon. the Chief Minister claims that they are conscious of the pulse of the people in this regard, but I want to say that is not correct. If the pulse of the people is known in connection with this matter then the people would have been consulted specifically about this matter. We therefore feel

is made in the country in which he is the head of the Government, but we also consider that whenever attempts are being made at achieving some measure of progress it should be absolutely necessary that the Govemment should take not only the Assembly into its confidence about changes of a thoroughgoing nature, but also the whole country. The very fact that this piece of legislation repeals another one which has been known to the people for a long time, and which has been a subject of worry to the people for a long time means that this piece of legislation is so important that the people's pulse must be felt at all times. I shall now proceed to eliminate some of the points which the hon . the Chief Minister raised in the course of his address. He says to this House that the intention of this legislation is to remove provisions of burdensome I pieces of legislation that were imposed upon the people in the past. I want to say to him that we have read through the Bill and we find it is not a question of removing anything that is burdensome, but rather it is a consolidation of legislation that has been passed in this connection and in many cases, Mr. Chairman, there is a lot that is new and which is terrifying to us. That is the reason why we say the Government should go to the country and consult the country about it.

that the consideration of this Bill should be delayed and that a conscious effort should be made at consulting the people about it specifically. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What laws should be used in the meantime? The land belongs to the people. Must we use Proclamation 116?

MR. BUBU: Naturally , in the meantime. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Although the people do not want these laws? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You want to retain the White laws.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You said the same thing about the flag.

ja

MR. BUBU: Naturally, will be committed.

MR. BUBU: In any case it is not only a case of consolidating, but also of intensifying what has been done in the past.

otherwise

mistakes

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You say the Govemment has no brains?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Quote!

་

MR. BUBU: The hon . the Chief Minister asks whether I consider the Government has no brains. My answer is plain · I do not think they have. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment.

MR. BUBU : I need not quote because I am not dealing with the provisions here. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are making a wild statement.

THE CHAIRMAN : I will ask the Secretary to read the amendment.

MR . BUBU: The hon. the Chief Minister continually tries to make a distinction between what are called chiefs and ordinary people .

MR. GUZANA: One would like to know, Mr. Chairman, if that is an indication that the Chairman is bringing down the guillotine on this amendment, because if I may advise the House there are certain strong submissions which the Opposition seeks to make under this amendment. Let us be guided, Sir.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you say the people are yours .

MR. BUBU: I submit, Mr. Chairman, there is no difference between the chiefs and the people.

THE CHAIRMAN : I thought no other member was prepared to speak.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have no people.

MR. GUZANA: It is just that the Government, having been told that they haven't the brains , could not produce anybody to speak. (Laughter) This side of the House was waiting for them to put their brains together and get somebody to speak and that is why we did not stand up . Mr. Chairman , hon. members of the House....

MR. BUBU: If chiefs are people on one side, they are people on the other side. The relationship between chiefs and the people is so reciprocal that it is difficult to draw the line between them. He claims for instance that the land belongs to the chiefs. THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

And their people. THE CHAIRMAN: Do you want to speak now?

MR. BUBU: That is a sweeping statement , Mr. Chairman . The land belongs primarily to the people, (Interjections) in the most general aspect of that term. Then the people entrust their authority to the chiefs · the executive authority.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is right

MR. GUZANA : Yes, please , Sir. THE CHAIRMAN : You will be the last speaker then. (Interjections)

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, we have other

it -366-

speakers on this matter. THE CHAIRMAN: No, I will not allow that. MR. GUZANA: I am bound to place on record the fact that there is an elimination , or a gradual diminution of a democratic practice of expressing views on matters before this House. It is essential that any legislation coming before this House be examined and that ways and means be devised for people to understand that legislation , and this amendment seeks just that and nothing else. We want to guarantee a thorough understanding of a bill and one of the factors that stands out against going on with this Bill is that it is brought in at the last end of the session . A bill seeking to repeal over thirty proclamations and portions of Acts is slipped in at the tail end of the session , and it is sought to bulldoze it right through the Assembly without the people understanding it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Those Acts were made by Republican Govemment. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I speak under the amendment seeking to refer this Bill to a select committee, and here we are not concerned with political affiliations and political convictions, because this side of the House has indicated quite clearly to this House that it supports a progressive agricultural policy. At the 1964 session of this Assembly this whole House unanimously agreed that rehabilitation be voluntary and the word " unanimous" includes the Goverment side, as well as the Opposition side, and nothing has been done by the Opposition to betray that unanimous decision.

ever it is going to bring in legislation of a farreaching effect, will make its intention known long before Parliament meets. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It does not publish the bill. No government ever publishes the bill. MR. GUZANA: I have not suggested that it publishes the bill, but that it makes its intentions known. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But we have. MR. GUZANA: And if I am not mistaken, on certain occasions it actually canvasses the electorate's opinion and publishes the bill. Now this is the life-blood of the Transkei because the development of the Transkei must initially begin with the development of the soil , and this Bill touches rich and poor, landless and those who have land. That is why the people must know what the Govemment's intentions are before that Govemment embodies its intentions in a bill such as we have today. Obviously what I am saying is beyond the comprehension of the hon. the Chief Minister and he has to leave this House because he cannot understand. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He is busy elsewhere. Don't make false allegations. MR. GUZANA: Busy with what, when he is the head of the Government? THE MINISTER official business.

OF

JUSTICE:

Busy

with

MR. GUZANA: He should be here. THE CHIEF MINISTER: A lot has been done. Your men went to Xalanga and incited the people against rehabilitation. (Interjections)

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We are

here.

MR. GUZANA: Who are you?

MR. GUZANA: Nothing has been done and nothing can be quoted by the Govemment to indicate a betrayal of that undertaking.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And who are you?

what

MR. GUZANA: We are the members of this Assembly. You should realise that this side of the House is assisting you, rather than obstructing you.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Raziya said in Xalanga?

What

about

MR . GUZANA : I stand firm here to reiterate the Opposition's attitude towards agricultural improvements in the Transkei - that this side supports all improvements · livestock, agriculture, animal husbandry · to the hilt. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Where do we differ then? MR. GUZANA: But this side of the House insists that there will be consultation and cooperation between the Government and the people it seeks to benefit. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: That is what I have got in the Bill. MR. GUZANA: The Bill is not yet a law and before the Bill becomes law you infringe the right of the people to be consulted on what is going to become law. If you want the people to be with you, you will consult them about your intentions regarding what is important to them · namely, the soil of the Transkei . You have been altogether secretive about this Bill. The Republican Govemment, when-

THE MINISTER audible interjection)

OF

AGRICULTURE :

(In-

MR. GUZANA: Do you accept the guarantee that the Bill will be explained to the people by the members of the Opposition in its correct and proper provisions? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In view of what happened with the Flag Bill? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes, we don't want that. MR. GUZANA: You yourself have no respect for the flag because you suggested it should be used as a head- doek. Don't come here and pretend that you respect the flag. (Laughter) Probably you will use it as a loincloth when you develop along your own lines. What I am seeking to tell you is that the Opposition will explain this Bill as it is to the people. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : On the same lines as you did the Flag Bill?

-367-

MR. GUZANA: So that the people will be given an opportunity to say "well done” ,... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What did your people say about the flag to the two thousand Pondos there? MR. GUZANA: Those people told you they did not want the flag. Are you afraid that this Bill is so oppressive that the people whom you seek to benefit will say "No" to the Bill? (Interjections) Are you not therefore paying lip service when you say you are doing this in the interests of the people, if you are afraid to let the people know what your intentions are? Can anybody be more cynical than that? We urge this in all earnestness ... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , and you won't get it.

want obstruction . MR. GUZANA: We are regarding this as a matter of life and death for the people of the Transkei and you want to make a political issue out of it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Do you want the birds to pick the kaffircorn and for me then to go and keep them off the fields?

MR . GUZANA: But if the birds pick the kaffircorn they get a full stomach and don't cause any further trouble. I want you to go and feed the people on this Bill so that when it is an Act they do not cause you any further trouble, but you will not see it that way. I feel , Mr. Chairman , that this is a matter on which we should have a thorough discussion and have all views expressed . The debate was adjourned .

MR. GUZANA: And please remember that your people in the Transkei are sensitive about anything that relates to land and therefore you have got to tread warily whenever you deal with land. When I look at this I find that whilst you describe it as a soil conservation scheme , it is just another name for a more far-reaching scheme which you easily and boldly call a rehabilitation scheme. We would like you to be honest about your intentions , that is all , for the provisions here relate to residence, woodlots, grazing areas , everything. THE MINISTER OF name do you want then?

AGRICULTURE:

What

MR. GUZANA: Call it by its proper name and don't give it another name than that which relates to it.

AFTERNOON SESSION . ANNOUNCEMENT. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been advised by the hon . Paramount Chief of Western Pondo land that the funeral of the late hon . Mr. Tolikana Mangala will be on Sunday at 11 a.m.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , I have already notified you that I would allow only one more speaker on the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill and then the hon. Minister and Mr. Mda to reply. I have since found that this is the first time we have had an amendment such as this one and we shall therefore adjourn until tomorrow .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : All right call it rehabilitation.

The Assembly adjourned until 11

a.m. on

Thursday, 16th June, 1966.

MR. GUZANA: All right, we will do that and I hope you will amend the title of the Bill and call it Rehabilitation Bill, if you don't mind. What I mean is that the term "rehabilitation" seems to get the people's backs up, but be that as it may be would like the provisions of this Bill to be applied when the people have been consulted .

THURSDAY, 16TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: But it is provided for in the Bill.

TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL : SECOND READING.

MR. GUZANA: The point is that you should consult before you put the Bill through the Assembly. That is the point.

The debate was resumed.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: member of Parliament is not here?

What MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to draw the attention of the House to what I think is a procedural defect attaching to the Bill we have now before the House. If you look at page 217 of the proceedings of this session dated Friday, 10th June, we find that the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry announced that he would introduce a bill for the

MR. GUZANA: All members are here and they are responsible to the people. You had the first reading only yesterday and today you are moving into the second reading. What is the hurry for? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Tomorrow we will have the committee stage.

conservation of the soil , veld , water supplies , improvement and control of livestock, eradication of weeds and the development of agriculture generally in the Transkei , and to provide for other incidental matters. Now on the order paper of Tuesday , 14th June , item 5 reads: First reading of the Transkeian Soil Conservation Bill, 1966. Then on the order paper of the 15th June we find: Second reading of the Transkei Agricultural Development

MR. GUZANA: Now you are suggesting we move into the committee stage. There is a madness somewhere which seeks that this Bill be passed quickly through this House . We are offering you co-operation and you don't want it.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I don't -368-

Bill, 1966. Sir, the point I am driving at is that this House has not had notice of the introduction of the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill. It has had notice of a Transkei Soil Conservation Bill which

MR. RAJUILI : You are not the Chairman of the House. I am not listening to you. The Chairman can reply to me.

I think suggests two different things, as recorded in the minutes. I suggest therefore, Sir, with respect that the Bill before us which is in the second

THE CHAIRMAN : Look at page 236 of the order paper.

reading stage is made defective procedurally in that this House has not been given notice of introduction. I think this is a material defect, Sir, and I would like the matter gone into.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the House....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just want to reply to the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. THE CHAIRMAN : You need not. THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I will just explain for the benefit of members so that the Opposition members cannot say that the correct procedure has not been used. This is the notice that was given and it is clear. The hon . Minister said: "I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 14th June, I intend to introduce a bill to provide for the conservation of the soil, the veld and water supplies, the improvement and control of livestock, the eradication of weeds and the development of agriculture generally in the Transkei , and to provide for other incidental matters ." That is the notice that was given . Now the hon . Member, as an attorney, can just quibble even when there is nothing to quibble about. He is merely drawing the attention of the House to a mistake which might have been made by the clerk but which has nothing to do at all with the notice given by the hon . Minister. This was not the short title of the Bill at the time. The short title can only be indicated when the Bill is read a first time. This was merely put on the agenda and says that the Bill is the Transkei Soil Conservation Bill. In any case that is the position in so far as the title of the Bill is concemed but that is not the short title of the Bill.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: What is the short title of the Bill? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have it. It was read when the Bill was read a first time. It can only be indicated when the bill is read a first time. The hon . Minister read the Bill a first time.

THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. Minister, after the hon . Minister I want the mover of the amendment to reply.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Before I proceed, Mr. Chairman, I want to remind the House, as an old man in this House and an experienced one that a drowning man will hold on to a straw. That replies to the remark of the Hon . Leader of the Opposition . He has lost confidence in the amendment and he is applying a stratagem of delay, but yesterday he made another attempt when he said he called the Bill a Soil Conservation Bill instead of a Soil Reclamation Bill, which of course, is one and the same thing. He is a perfect linguist and he should know without any attempt on his part that you can call a spade a spade or you can call it a .... THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . member, I think that is over. You must stick to the point. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Coming to the amendment of the hon . Mr. Caledon Mda, I must say at the very outset that it cannot be accepted by this House and most of the speakers on the other side tried to impress the House that the Govemment was trying to impose something terrible on the people and in emotional, fanatical terms implored the Govemment to shelve this Bill, based on completely false grounds. In the very first instance I would like to point out that they created the impression that they were running away from the task of legislating for the people. They always pride themselves as being representatives of the people and that they are the only people who represent the people in this House. What do they represent the people for? Don't they know the views of the people? Do you want to go back to the people and ask them their opinions about the Bill before the House?

CHIEF NDAMASE : He read it as the Soil Conservation Bill.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Yes. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Do the people know the Bill at all?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not at all . You are looking at the order paper which you should have corrected on the day the Minister put it before you . THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon . Minister, but that was a mistake on the order paper and you know the minutes were passed as a correct record of the House and therefore the Bill stands as it is.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : We take it that the correct thing is on the 14th June , which says the Transkei Soil Conservation Bill. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It had not been read then.

MR. RAJUILI : So the Bill was not read the first time. Is that the answer? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It had not been read.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: They should know. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: And what can you tell me you do for the people if you cannot legislate for them and lead them? Now you say we must agree to take it back to the people, and once bitten, twice shy. On two occasions we had a gentlemen's agreement in this House about bills that were to be put to the people. I refer to the Flag Bill and to the education syllabus . What did we hear as soon as you left the House? That you had collected a lot of illiterate people in a political meeting of yours and then incited them or infiltrated your wrong opinions on them and touted the two thousand misled people to give you their money. (Laughter) Now this amendment proposes that the Bill should be shelved and I think it was -369-

insinuated by the Leader himself that the Govemment had an ulterior motive behind it.

MR. RAJUILI : I take that very seriously. I know what I said. I have it on record what I said and he is twisting it. I have never said at any time what he said now. He must withdraw.

MR. GUZANA: Were those words used? 3 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I will not even reply to the interjections because I will treat that statement with the contempt it deserves . Now here they are - these people who call themselves leaders . They want to go to the people and ask the people to lead them. Where have you ever heard of that in any Parliament anywhere in the world, where the Government just folds its arms and asks the people to legislate for them? Tell me where you have ever heard of that? MR. GUZANA: I will treat that question with the contempt it deserves. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am not going to go into the merit of the Bill because there is ample time for that in the committee stage , but I think those who had ears to hear heard the hon. the Chief Minister expound the provisions of the Bill. What I am going to dwell upon is a few points raised by the hon . Leader when he said that the Bill was being foisted upon the people at this late hour. MR. GUZANA: Foisted on this House. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What was late about it, because at the very opening of Parliament by the hon . the Minister of Bantu Administration and development he gave, in accordance with custom, a catalogue of the bills we were going to introduce into this House , and this was one of them . It should. have been expected that the hon. members on that side would have expected this Bill to come up, and the Chief Minister himself, when he gave his programme earlier this session , mentioned this Bill. Well, what is foisted upon the House?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You said you had a strategy . It was reported in the paper. THE CHAIRMAN : There is nothing in that. hon. member. MR. RAJUILI : I take a strong exception to what he said.

THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now the Government is determined to do everything possible to educate the people of the Transkei , particularly on soil conservation , and I am very pleased to know that the hon. Leader of the Opposition has been very well quoted in the Dispatch which I will not labour the House by reading, which was to the effect that his party fully supported the development that is being contemplated in the Transkei. MR. GUZANA: No, I fully support any agricultural development scheme. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It is the same leader I am referring to who said those words. Now, Mr. Chairman , I would like to draw the attention of the House to the position as it exists today , because it seems to me by the words of the mover that he is discussing what he should do in the second reading of the Bill when he quotes certain instances where the Proclamation that is being replaced by this law was misused , when he said he led a delegation to the magistrate to protest against the rehabilitation of a certain location which he did not name.

MR. GUZANA: Do you know why that location is not named? It is to protect one of your chiefs , and that is why we did not name it. So you must concede some decency to the Opposition .

MR. GUZANA: The provisions of the Bill.

W

E

1

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We just concluded the last bill prior to my introducing this Bill, and we could not crowd two bills at one and the same time, particularly for one Department. Now supposing it was a month or two or three weeks before and the mover of the amendment says that the reason why it cannot be considered now is because they want to take it back to the people. Now supposing it had been given two or three weeks earlier and not so late as today, how would you have taken it back to the people? Tell me. We have disposed of several bills and there has been no adjournment to enable some of the members to go and intimidate the people or get the communistic opinions from outside the Transkei. You would not have had time to go and consult Ahrenstein in Durban. (Interjections) Well, I can only conclude that the political strategy which was once recommended by my hon. friend from Maluti , that they were going to use political strategy to obstruct anything we do in this House....

MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I will ask that this irresponsible Minister withdraw those words. It is not true. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You said it.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: How are you protecting him? MR. GUZANA: We did not want to mention his name for obvious reasons. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I treat that remark with the contempt it deserves . This hon. member belongs to the group which says they are going to undermine the authority of the chiefs.

MR . MDA: Where was that said? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: It was enunciated by the hon . member for Nqamakwe, the soap-box orator, that they were going out to organise the people against their chiefs. Now why did the hon. member not take these dissident people to the chief whom he says he is protecting - but which is crocodile protection? That is precisely what we are trying to stop by this Bill, because evidently that chief had had no meeting with the people and had just hurried to the magistrate and no one would protect him . We cannot condone that irresponsible action of a chief, and I am certain he is a chief on your side. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: Then we will name him.

-370-

reasonable amendment and it is not in the fashion that the hon. member brought, to obstruct. We cannot do that because you heard the other day wher. I asked him why he did not accompany me to meetings in the Bizana or Qaukeni region . His reply was that he could not accompany me because at my meetings I speak of soil conservation. (Laughter) Can you be surprised that he brings an amendment like this? He is against soil conservation and soil reclamation , or whatever it is.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You say you are protecting him. MR. GUZANA: Do you challenge us to name him? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: In this Bill consultation and consultation and consultation are provided, so it is foolproof. Nothing will be done against the wishes of the people. They will go to their "inkundla" and to the tribal authority and it is only then that the Department will take action, when it sees that the people have been consulted and fully understand the situation . Now there are several instances on that side where people have shown that they do not lead the people to the right pastures, I have in this House constantly repeated quotations from the people on that side who have obstructed the Govemment and almost wamed them that their lives are only three score and ten years, and a time will come when they will have to account for misleading the people.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Sit down! THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now I implore the members to come to their senses and not to lower your prestige by being against the rehabilitation of your land, and if you succeed in going to Parliament in Cape Town at any time you will be a laughing-stock if you say reclamation should be stopped in the Republic. MR. GUZANA: Who ever said that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I have said what I wanted to say .

MR. GUZANA : You are nearer that accounting than we are. (Laughter)

0

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You will have to account to the Almighty who created Mother Earth . Mother Earth is getting cold and has no blanket, and daily the blanket is being shifted away from her and you say we should wait another year before we clothe Mother Earth. Mother Earth is seriously indisposed and the longer we delay, the worse she becomes . What doctor will ever say to a patient who comes: Please come this time next year? It is perhaps only Doubt who can say that. (Laughter) Now, hon . members, we must be serious. It is being argued that this Bill is intensifying the provisions that already exist. Can you intensify a medicine, doctor? If there is need for a remedy, can you say there is too much of it?

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman , it amuses me very much indeed when the hon. the Minister of Africulture, in his reply referred to the Almighty, because I remember just now how, when his own old mother was lying dying in bed, she implored him to make certain confessions.

e

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: What are you talking about now? MR. MDA: That all arose from the fact that as a result of the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland, he went and made false statements to the police that his household moveable property had been looted from his house. (Laughter)

6

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Yes. THE CHIEF MINISTER:

Come back to the

Bill.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There are over 40 Proclamations that we are repealing, and the Transkei has an unenviable reputation for having more proclamations than there are statutes in the whole of the Republic . Now if you look at the back of this Bill you will find no less than 40 Proclamations that have been scrapped, and it is to the credit of the Law Adviser and my Department that all those have been consolidated into this small Bill, because all the scrap has been done away with and only the essentials to cure Mother Earth have been retained . I have said already , Mr. Chairman , that I am not discussing the principles of the Bill, which there is plenty of time for. We on this side are not afraid of the people. We are going to legislate and if you choose to walk out you can do so . There will be only less noise in the

ge MR. MDA: In fact, all that had happened was that two or three days before the case, he had brought a lorry and removed all his goods . (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MDA: When the case went before the presiding officer people were charged for theft. He persuaded the old lady, his mother, to give evidence of theft and the old lady naturally did give false evidence .

ev

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Come back to the Bill. MR. MDA: On this occasion then , the old lady is lying there, dying, and she requests him : "Oh, my son, God may not accept me. You must put this right." (Laughter)

House, and I must wam you again against time that this Bill must be completed by Monday or Tuesday. With that end in view I shall have to ask for night sittings , and I know some of you will be very puzzled if I keep you here at night because we have other appointments to meet. Now, Mr. Chairman, in conclusion I ask the members to please leave this straw they are holding. It is not going to help them when they are drowning. We must now consider this second reading of the Bill and I have got an open mind and I shall be prepared at any time to listen to whatever criticism comes during the committee stage, as long as it is a

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . MDA: All that he did was to say : "Oh, mother, no. I cannot do that. I cannot go and disgrace myself to the White man, mother." (Laughter) And in the meantime the old lady, his mother, died without being able to make her peace with God. Mr. Chairman , he is about the most miserable Minister -371-

int

the

a Bi

T

this Goverment will ever have, and he is the most daring liar. (Laughter)

tives in this House, Sir. Now the hon. the Chief Minister says they have consulted the people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , on a point of order, Sir. I think the hon. member is now going too far. For almost ten minutes he has been discussing about things that have nothing to do with the Bill. In terms ofrules 42 and 43 the hon. member should withdraw all the words he has said. Rule 42 says a member should not use offensive expressions about the conduct of members of the Assembly and rule 43 says that the personal conduct or any alleged improper motives of a member shall not be referred to.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Every week we have meetings with the people.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : He has not said anything against that rule. He is merely saying that the Minister told his mother to lie. THE CHAIRMAN : I think you should withdraw the word "liar" , hon. member. MR. MDA: I withdraw the word, Mr. Chairman , but oh, he is miserable! (Laughter) During his address he asked the members whether the people know this Bill at all and then , referring to the Opposition, he asked whether they know the views of the people. My answer to that is that the people do not know about this Bill; and to the other question my answer is that we only came to know about this Bill on Tuesday when it was distributed amongst us, and in the space of two days we are expected to discuss objectively a Bill of such thorough and far-reaching consequences as this one. The first portion of my amendment seeks the setting up of a select committee to go into this matter, and that committee to go to the people of the Transkei and explain the intricacies of the provisions of this Bill. We welcome the fact that this Bill repeals so many Proclamations, and the further suggestion that it consolidates so many proclamations and enactments, all that being done in the interests of the people of the Transkei , but now the question arises: Why is the Minister and the Government side adamant in refusing our suggestion that the people should be approached and their views solicited on this matter? GOVERNMENT happened before.

MEMBER:

That

has

MR. MDA: I think it is disgraceful that such a suggestion should come from a man of his stature . Mr. Chairman , when the hon . the Chief Minister spoke on this amendment yesterday he could not control himself. He ranted and raved against communism and made all such insinuations and he did not succeed in speaking to the subject before this House. One was therefore immediately suspicious that he was trying to put up a lot of covering before the nasty piece of legislation they are introducing so late in the session. He cited the question of the flag as being their bone of contention in connection with the appointment of a select committee. Our gentlemen's agreement was not arrived at and that gentlemen's agreement had been dishonoured. That is what he implied. Mr. Chairman , if there was any dishonour in so far as that gentlemen's agreement was concemed it was in fact the responsibility of the side opposite. The suggestion that we had arrived at was that the flag question was going to be taken to the people by the heads of the regional authorities. They had to call meetings of their subjects in their regions, invite the members of this House even if they belonged to the Opposition to those meetings , with the only subject at those meetings to be the Flag Bill. That offered an opportunity whereby both sides of the House would present the question of the flag to the people jointly. They would then share the responsibility of convincing the people as to the wisdom of accepting the idea of a flag for these territories. Alas , Mr. Chairman, that was never done and it was no responsibility of the members on this side of the House that it was not done. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We did that · we called the meetings. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: You did not do that. MR. MDA : In our case at any rate, where I can talk more or less officially and knowingly, that was not done even when I had suggested it. All that happened was that members of the Government party went and talked about the flag at the same time as they did about their political philosophy.

never

MR. MDA: This should be done, particularly in view of the fact that the people of these Territories are already suspicious about enactments

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That was done at Libode.

that concern the land and their grazing rights .

MR . MDA: The meeting at Libode was during the weekend of the 2nd and 3rd April. That was just about seventeen days before this session started.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Were they ever consulted by the Republican Govemment? MR. MDA: That is no excuse for their not being consulted by their own Government.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Wasn't that THE CHIEF MINISTER : them .

We have consulted

a political meeting? MR. MDA: It had obviously become clear that the Government had not taken seriously their own decision to talk about the matter of the flag jointly with the Opposition . As a matter of fact there was any amount of evidence to show that the Goveming party had spoken about the flag question on party political lines.

MR. MDA: Then if this Bill is in the best interests of the people they will accept this Bill. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have consulted the people. MR. MDA: I have just said that we were only made aware of the provisions contained in this Bill on Tuesday. We are the people's representa-

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not true. The magistrates held meetings of the tribal authorities -372-

and the regional authorities.

what you are trying to do.

MR. MDA : And in any event, there was no select committee, which is being suggested by this amendment , Mr. Chairman ....

MR. MDA: He tended to be a dictator and he is now a disgraced man. Alas, the hon. the Chief Minister who claims to talk to the people and to pull them along as he moves....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : There was a select committee.

THE people.

MR. MDA: ....a select committee comprising members of the Govemment side as well as the Opposition whose responsibility it will be to take the subject matter of this Bill to the people , to canvass the opinion of the people as regards these provisions and then report back to this House at its next session . (Interjections) The question of the flag is not exactly to the point of the suggested committee in the amendment.

I

move

with the

MR. MDA: ..and the same deceitful Minister of Agriculture · I fear they might land themselves in the same mess as President Nkrumah is in now... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are hoping for a coup d'etat. MR. MDA: ....and a day might come when the Republican Government will start to blame itself for having sponsored people of this type (Laughter) who, because perhaps of their ambition , have even damaged the image of democracy that the Republican Government wanted to give to this Bantustan . I appeal to the members opposite, particularly those on the Govemment side who are chiefs and whose

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Come to your reasons then. We have not heard them. MR. MDA: Mr. Chairman , a little while ago when the hon. the Minister of Agriculture was speaking he referred to an unnamed chief somewhere who had tried to enforce rehabilitation upon his people. I received a phone call this moming from Bizana and I was advised that he had in fact put a trunk call to Bizana to substantiate the authenticity of my allegation in the House yesterday and he was assured that what I had said in this House was a fact . (Laughter) THE

CHIEF MINISTER:

wealth is the people , to consider that position and to remember that when they are dead the people will still be living. This land is not theirs, but this land is for the people. Whatever they do to this land they must do in the interests of the people and whatever they do in this land they must do in consultation with the people, (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

CHIEF MINISTER: You are not serious.

MR. MDA: The people were here before the chiefs and it was the people who decided they must have a chief. It was the people who decided they must put So- and-so as a chief because of his policies, so it is absolutely misleading it is not true that any chief has the land and the people have no land. (Interjections) The chief exists as an image of the people and he is put there by the people.

MR. MDA: I am serious. During the last session you will remember how I tried to put wise the chiefs on the other side as to my hon. friend there. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Is that your farewell speech? You are not coming back in 1968. MR. MDA : Apparently some of our Ministers did not take the advice I gave them. The most important aspect of my amendment is that it is our duty, and we must take it as our duty, to consult the people on all these matters which we sincerely believe are in their best interests , even those matters where we anticipate opposition from the people, but if we are convinced that those projects are in fact in the interests of the people then we must take it upon ourselves not to allow them to remain in ignorance. But to go at the speed which the hon. Minister seems to suggest we should ....

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You want to do away with us. MR. MDA: How could we do away with a thing that we put there ourselves? In other words , if a time should come when we feel we do not deserve to have this thing, we have the right to put this thing away because we are responsible for its existence.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The soil is being washed away with every storm .

THE chiefs.

MR. MDA: ....we fear we will never get to where we are intending to go because we shall run too fast for the masses of the people and when that happens the people will tum against us.

MR . MDA: God never created a chief. It was the people who put him there, so that this fallacy must be destroyed .... (Interjections)

CHIEF

MINISTER :

God

created the

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They will never tum against us this side. MR. MDA: President Nkrumah at some stage was thought the best president Africa had ever produced and it was thought he was going to achieve great things for his people, but President Nkrumah ran too fast for the people and today he is hounded all over the world. He is a disgraced man.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is

MR. MDA: .... and this fallacy is sowing seeds of suspicion between the chiefs and the people and there will come a day when the people will no longer put up with this type of nonsense, and the people are the ones to be consulted. (General uproar)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. I am now going to put the question.

-373-

put the amendment first.

THE SECRETARY : The question is a motion by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that the Bill be read a second time , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon . Mr. C.S. Mda. I shall

The amendment was lost by 35 votes to 56 after a division as follows: -

NOES

AYES

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa 2 St

Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Phunguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1 C.S. Mda.

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilivie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1 K.G. Nota 2 Z. Chemane .

2 J. Ntola.

discussion of the principles now that it is nearly one o'clock. We are ready to do so.

The original motion was carried by 56 votes to

35.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is finished .

The Bill was read a second time. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am just wondering if we can start on the

MR. GUZANA: No, Mr. Chairman , I think there is a little bit of confusion , Sir. May I explain? The -374-

SUSPENSION OF PROCLAMATION R.400.

hon. the Minister of Agriculture moved that the Bill be read a second time.

The debate was resumed. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, it has been read

now. MR. GUZANA: There was an amendment to the effect that it be referred to a committee and this side of the House spoke to the amendment whilst the Government side spoke to the motion.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Bill has been read a second time. MR. GUZANA: Now the amendment has been lost and the motion to have the Bill read a second! time has been approved by the House.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And it has been read. MR. GUZANA: It has been accepted and now we want to go on with the second reading.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is a great pity that when the subversive elements have started showing their poisonous fangs, a motion of this nature should have come to this House. I can find no other reason why this motion has been constantly brought to this House except for the fact that it militates against the (to quote the language of my hon. friend) diabolical, nefarious and satanic activities of some of the members across the floor. I shall first of all deal with the submissions which were brought by my learned friend, the member from Fingoland, when he said that this piece of legisla tion gives too much power to the chiefs . I submit that this legislation gives no new powers to the chiefs. After the meeting of the African people with the White people the powers of the chiefs were taken away. This legislation does nothing more except restore the powers that were enjoyed by the chiefs before the White man came.

THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid we just want the date for the committee stage now. (Uproar)

た

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Bill has already been read a second time.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I shall quote an example to show that , for instance , the chiefs had the powers to banish whatever subjects were disloyal or were prone to undertaking subversive activities from their areas and in fact beyond the borders of their areas, and he then, at the time, had absolutely no powers of appeal against such banishment. I shall quote the great-grandfather of the present Paramount Chief of the Tembus , Chief Ngangelizwe , who banished Squngati or Mongami who fled to Gcalekaland where he was fetched

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No!

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It has been read. You heard the clerk read the Bill a second time. MR. GUZANA: He made a mistake. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, he did not.

by Matanzima and placed at Nququ. Mnqanqeni was also banished by the same chief.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I think it is the Chair who called upon the Secretary to read the Bill but I submit that it was wrong....

OPPOSITION MEMBER: We are not talking about those days.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It was correct. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am quoting these examples to show that the chiefs had these powers before. Now these powers that we have today have actually been modified in that the people banished can actually appeal against that banishment, and it is only after the appeal has been turned down that the buildings of those people are bulldozed when they do not want to move after the banishment order. Now there are provisions here which have not been quoted because the intention of these provisions is to protect the power of the chiefs and also to protect the individuals, and I would like to see the members of the Opposition definitely saying that they are against these provisions . Section 11 (a) of the Proclamation provides as follows: " Any person who makes any statement verbally or in writing or does any act which is intended or is likely to have the effect of subverting or interfering with the authority of the State , the Chief Native Commissioner, a Native Commissioner or any other officer in the employ of the State, or of any chief or headman ; any person who makes any statement verbally or in writing or or does any act which consists of or contains any threat that any person will be subjected to any boycott or will suffer any violence, loss, disadvantage or inconvenience in his person or property or in the person or property of any member of his family or household; any person who organises or takes part in any organised boycott of any meeting

MR. GUZANA: .... because the principles of the Bill have not been discussed. We spoke to the amendment, not to the principles of the Bill. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: I spoke to the principles of the Bill. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I suggest we adjourn at this stage and have this matter resolved. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not going to adjourn. We will adjourn at one o'clock but we will not come back to this. THE CHAIRMAN: The House will now adjourn until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill has been read a second time and I want to know the date for the committee stage. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I propose that it be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman.

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1

I 2

Mr. Diko: You see, my biggest trouble is, man , I don't know why, you see, when you got the idea you should have had somebody's money to give to the man immediately.

convened by an officer of the State or a chief or headman; organises or takes part in any organised boycott against any person with the object of causing him loss , disadvantage , inconvenience in his person or property……..”

OPPOSITION MEMBER: We don't understand what you are talking about.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: Is that Proclamation 400? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , you don't even know it. "Any person being a Native who refuses or neglects to obey any lawful order, including an order in accordance with Native law and custom issued by a chief or headman to whose authority he is subject ; or treats the chief or headman to whose authority is subject with disrespect, contempt and obedience and to render such services to such chief or headman as should be shown or rendered "" in accordance with Native law and custom ....' Now I challenge you members across the floor to say expressly that you are against these provisions, then I will indict you as being some of those members who are prone to undertake subversive activities. Now I submit that you people find yourselves in a great difficulty because we have constantly told you in no uncertain terms that you are a group or conglomeration of people with

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Dunne speaks about money to be given to kill the Chief Minister. I am reading the evidence as it was given from the tape recorder. I am not here to say whether it is true or false. It is for the House to decide that. I am putting facts as they are. I am indicting nobody. Mr. Diko further says: "You see, go to somebody with money, hand over the money and we remain quiet. " Now that was the conversation at Tabankulu . OPPOSITION wrong in that.

MEMBER :

There was nothing

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Now I have also here evidence - not the tape-recorded evidence, but evidence as it was given at Grahamstown . This was given by Agent No. 5 at Grahamstown . He says they got out of the car and Chief Sabata was well under the influence of liquor. Dunne said Chief Sabata put his arms around his shoulders and said: "We have discussed this matter a lot and are glad to have a man like you on our side . The time has now come for positive action so we are going to

different views , ideas and perhaps principles. Not far distant two of your members were charged with a conspiracy to murder. Now in law actions or agreements may be accepted tacitly, impliedly or expressly. My submission is that you have tacitly accepted the activities of these men because you have not expressly disapproved of their activities , and in fact when they came back from the case they sat amongst you there. Apart from the two men I quoted there are other hon. gentlemen who were arrested together with them. I submit that the reason why they were not charged and the reason why they are still here is merely the difference in the involvement in that conspiracy . I shall quote extracts from the tape record which was taken of the conversation between those members and the convicted members and the secret agents .

eliminate some of the opposition . George Matanzima is the first and the best time to eliminate him is while his brother, the Chief Minister, is in the Republic. " Chief Sabata further said: "I promise my support. I have twelve good Tembu men to stir up trouble in the Transkei. " · Evidence given by Agent No. 8.

PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , this is the second time that I have been listening to speeches coming from members on the other side who come from Emigrant Tembuland , about my name. If I have to tell you the truth, hon . member , all that you have read about me is not the truth . You do not know whether this is the end about my name or not. The Dutch people have long been talking badly about my name and now you have joined in.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Did they want to eliminate you? What has that to do with Proclamation 400?

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If you do not know, that Proclamation 400 is intended to keep peace and order and I am showing you that these gentlemen were trying to disrupt peace and order. I have submitted also that you have tacitly accepted the activities of these men . At Tabankulu there was a discussion between the secret agent, Mr. Dunne, Mr. Diko and others. Mr. Dunne , after he had been introduced to the hon . member, Mr. Diko , said to him: "Roley sends his regards to you ." (Laughter) In reply the hon . Mr. Diko said: " Oh , thanks very much .' Mr. Dunne: I have heard a lot about you from Roley. Mr. Diko : Oh . (He does not say , mind you , that he doesn't know Roley .) Mr. Dunne: He says you are a very fine man . Mr. Diko: We have a great difficulty. man . We are always wanting to be free and are unable to. (Interjections) Yes, they are going to make a noise in order to drown this. Then it goes on :

THE CHAIRMAN : I am sorry, hon . Chief, that is not a point of order. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have said from the beginning that I am quoting the evidence. I am not saying whether the evidence is true or false. I am merely quoting. Agent No. 8 : " Dunne said on the 2nd or 3rd August he went to the office of Mr. Roley Ahrenstein , an attomey in Durban, and told him he was having trouble with crayfish. He further mentioned he had met Nkosiyane, Chief Poto and Chief Sabata. Ahrenstein asked him to convey his regards to Sabata and Nkosiyane. He and Nkosiyane again met and Nkosiyane again brought up the question of killing Chief Matanzima and that he and Sabata had had a long discussion and it had been decided to levy the Tembu tribe to pay the man who would kill the Chief Minister. " GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Shame! THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Agent No. 12:

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"During a visit to the home near Umtata of Mr. A. Raziya, member of the Assembly, who gave evidence earlier in the trial, Dunne said Nkosiyane, Nogcantsi and Raziya spoke in Xhosa and he frequently heard the name Matanzima mentioned. After a while Raziya said in English: ' You should not have let me know what the money is for. Now that I know I will give R12 towards it.' Raziya added: 'You get Nogcantsi to see some people to get the money'." Agent No. 13 : "Burger and I got into the car, Nogcantsi paid R50 to Burger and the recording was made of the transaction . Dunne said on a subsequent visit to Ahrenstein's office in Durban, Ahrenstein handed him several books and pamphlets from the Institute of Race Relations and some documents which he read to Dunne before putting them into an envelope. Dunne said when he handed the printed matter to Nkosiyane the latter gave aterrific exclamation when he saw Ahrenstein's name in the books. He wanted to rub the name out. Dunne took Nkosiyane to the latter's hut where the matter was hidden. Within the next day or two he took the accused to Sabata's Great Place . Asked what had been discussed they told him . Sabata said they should go to see Chief D.D.P. Ndamase again and that he would have money collected." Now further, Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have a swom statement from a prominent D.P. man and a high official of the D.P. in East London where he alleges that two prominent men of the

to this House the motion to repeal a piece of legislation which is intended for the keeping of security and order and peace in the Transkei , one wonders what their intentions are. And in the light of all that, Mr. Chairman and members of the House, I submit that this Proclamation 400 must not be suspended. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, on a

point of

privilege, I am not going to discuss this subject but I wish to try and whitewash some of the things that have been said there against myself. THE CHAIRMAN: I will not allow that. I gave you a chance to discuss.

MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the House, this aftemoon we have had quotations and allegations against persons who appeared before a court of law. We were not participants in that trial. This matter is again further pending before the courts because an appeal has been noted and I think this House will not be entitled to discuss the matters raised therein . I therefore feel that I cannot be drawn into commenting on the allegations and on the excerpts of evidence led in that case. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are right in the corner.

Democratic Party went to East London last year and when they got to him they said the following words: " If you are a true Democrat, why is Matotie still living?" Now if that statement had been made by a member of the T.N.I.P. it might be said to be very doubtful , but it comes from a top official of the Democratic Party in East London.

MR. GUZANA: If you think I am right in the corner, you are looking at the comer but I am looking at the open spaces behind you. If the hon. the Minister of Justice sought to take advantage of evidence led there, he should have waited until the case is disposed of at the appellate division .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Who is he? Tell us his name .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is no longer sub judice. It is finished.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am not in a position to disclose his name but I am telling you it is in a sworn statement.

MR . GUZANA: It is not finished. It is suggested that the Democratic Party has done nothing relating to these people or to other persons who were associated with them. The Democratic Party is not responsible to the T.N.I.P. to report to it what its decisions are or what steps it has to take.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: Did you bribe him? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: One wonders , in the light of all this and in the light of the statement, what the basis .... MR. A. RAZIYA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to explain what has been said by the hon . member who has just sat down. We can say a lot about what has been said to us by the Europeans.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is responsible to the people of the Transkei . MR . GUZANA: It will take whatever steps it decides without any pressure being exerted by the T.N.I.P. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You will never take any steps.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: That was evidence.

MR . GUZANA : And when it takes whatever steps it decides upon it will not report to you.

That is not a point of order. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order. MR.

RAZIYA: The "tikoloshe"

sent

to my

home was sent by the Govemment party. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I was saying, Mr. Chairman , that in the light of all this and taking into cognizance that the Democratic Party has taken no positive steps to show that they disapprove of the activities taken by some of their members, and also further taking into cognizance the statement I have just quoted from two Democrats who went to East London , coupled with the fact that for three years they have been bringing

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot take steps against them because you agree with them.

MR . GUZANA : It is suggested that the Democratic Party is made up of different ideas and probably different philosophies. In effect that is how a party begins , and the people are moulded together to present a united front, and they develop into the philosophy which is enshrined in the constitution ; and it is fortunate that the Democratic Party has people who think as individuals for when these people with a free and unfettered mind are brought to unite themselves under a poli cy then they do so intelligently. It is a very sad state of affairs -377-

30

can be made against the restoration of that power of banishment and if there are any acts which are wrongful in terms of the law, the law is there to meet the situation. My leamed friend quoted section 11 of the Proclamation.

that the Governing party can boast a unity that is almost sphinx-like. without life. It never grows , it never shows movement. It stands like a granite wall, immutable, unchangeable, unyielding, without thinking at all. If they seek to make a movement they are immediately put in a strait-jacket. (Laughter) It is also suggested that certain people who are officials of the Democratic Party in East London have made affidavits as to what was said by prominent members of the Democratic Party. If indeed that is true, I stand up to indict the hon. the Minister of Justice for keeping the information to himself. (Laughter)

THE learned.

MR . GUZ ANA : He seeks us to act on know ledge which is known to himself alone.

MR. GUZANA: And he uses whatever information he alleges he has to attack the Democratic Party. Now we can leave it as it is and not ask what information. He is the originator, he is the source of this information known only to himself and not to us. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is from the 1 police . MR. GUZANA: I want to go back to the motion before the House and to reply to some of the allegations made by the hon. the Minister of Justice. My leamed friend has suggested that Proclamation 400 seeks to restore to the chiefs the powers they originally had, and one of the powers this Proclamation seeks to restore to the chief is the despotic power of banishment. Is the twentieth century going to condone despotism? Are we going to say that we are going to stand still and not progress away from despotism to democracy? Is not this power of banishment to which the hon . the Minister of Justice refers a remnant of the barbaric period of development?

ST THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about the Republican Government removing Nkosiyane to the Northem Transvaal?

MR. GUZANA: Now if we should refer to that barbaric period when this power was vested in the chief, how did the people react to the chiefs who had that despotic power? Did they not plot against the chief? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: No. MR. chief?

GUZANA: Did they not kill their own

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: No. MR. GUZANA: In other words , barbarism begot barbarism in a barbaric age and you cannot take a barbaric act out of a barbaric state and bring it to a state of democracy which has moved away from barbarism. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is democracy?

Honourable,

not

might undermine the position of a chief or a headman. Now this is a porvision brought in to deal with an emergency and how often have we been told, how often have the Ministers in the Republican Government said that there is peace in the Transkei . And if they are in a position to say so , because the security of the Republic is in their hands , have you any grounds for saying that there is no peace in the Transkei ? The trouble is that you go on to find that under Proclamation 400/the onus is on the accused who has to prove his innocence, and you will agree that that is indeed a reversal of a principle of a law that the accused is innocent until he is proved guilty. So this is a reversal of what should be the case and instead of the State having the onus to prove the guilt of the accused, the accused has to prove that he is innocent. Now that is one of the st rongest indictments against Proclamation 400 and it is because it undermines one of the principles of justice that we bring it again and again so that the rule of law should prevail .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you think we are going to give it to you? You haven't acted on the knowledge known to you.

2018 2015

MINISTER:

MR . GUZANA: Yes , he did say that at one stage and I am giving back what he gave me. The hon. the Minister of Justice quoted section 11 of the Proclamation which relates to statements made which

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are going to use it as evidence.

1

CHIEF

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But it is not Proclamation 400 which contains that. Even some of the statutes have that. They do cast the onus on some of the accused. MR. GUZANA: It is conceded that this is so, but this is one of them and that does not mean that because it is so it cannot be attacked on that point. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, I am just pointing out that it is only one of others. MR . GUZANA: So that it is one of the proclamations which should be attacked on that score because the man is innocent until he is proved guilty. THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE : Nevertheless I think you know even in those cases where the onus is on the accused the State has still to bring a prima facie case. MR. GUZANA: I am not talking about a prima facie case. I am talking about Proclamation 400 and if we look at section 12 we find that a person who has been injured by the application of this Proclamation is deprived of the right of a civil action against those who have put him in that loss or who have caused him to suffer in a particular way. Is that indeed a principle of law which should apply in a democratic country? Is it not correct that a man who has suffered must have redress by going to the courts? And is it not probably more callous than anything else . THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE : Volenti non fit injuria - that is the principle involved here.

MR. GUZANA : To that extent an indictment

MR.. GUZANA: -378-

• .that those who have been

protecting the chiefs from?

moved from their homes are not even given the right to sell their homes, but that they should be bulldozed to the ground? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are usually given time to move.

MR . GUZANA : They may remove with their movables but they cannot move a hut; they cannot move a rondavel ; they cannot move a brick and cement house. But to pour injury upon injury he is not even given the right to sell those immovable improvements so that he may have money even to put up a kraal at the place he has been moved to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: From communistically inclined individuals. MR . GUZANA: If it is murder, it will be murder whether it be a chief or a commoner, and no class of persons deserves a greater protection from the law than another. All people must be equal before the law, especially in a state where there is peace. Is it being suggested that the chiefs have to have Proclamation 400 to bolster up their authority ? Does it not flow from their very position as hereditary chiefs that they have indeed an inherent authority? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, the trouble is it is outside elements who come and cause trouble.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He can . OPPOSITION MEMBER : How? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: He can ask for an extension of time. MR. GUZANA: Can you say that people are human when they can allow that financial loss to be borne by a human-being who has struggled even to put up two huts? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : He deservers it. MR. GUZANA: I think we all know how long our people struggle even to put up a hut. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think you forget that this is a punishment. It should not be to the convenience of the punished. MR . GUZANA: Yes, a punishment must meet the crime , and a punishment that is in excess does not help to deter the crime but engenders a spirit of revenge. I think that is not the type of spirit we should encourage in a growing country. I want to go further and ask whether or not the Government has the assurance from those who are responsible for maintaining law and order that they cannot maintain law and order in the Transkei but for Proclamation 400. What has the Security Branch said about Proclamation 400? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They want it maintained. MR. GUZANA: Do they say that?

MR . GUZAN : And if elemen ts outside their A area of jurisdi d m t t o r a o k uble hen the common e cti law is availab onto deal with situat ions like that. le What we submit is that Procla mation 400 seeks to supplem a a s ent n dequate ystem of law to deal with lawbrea . kers

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, it is inadequate. That is why this was brought in. MR . GUZANA: And if the law were inadequate then why did Proclamation 400 come in only at a time of emergency?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There had to be an event to prove the inadequacy . MR . GUZANA: The event created the emergency so there had to be a Proclamation to meet the emergency which could not be covered by the ordinary law. And let me correct a statement to the effect that part, or certain sections of this law have been suspended. I have been advised that it is not so, Mr. honourable the Chief Minister. We seek the suspension , and if circumstances should arise of an emergency nature that suspension could be cancelled and the law could come into operation again . And now we come to deal with terms. Are the hon. members on the other side aware of the fact that because there is so much obstruction before we get a permit to hold a meeting, we are finding difficulty in getting to the electorate? Do you realise that a man who is representing the people meets all of a sudden sometimes a group of people who ask: Will you tell us what happened in Parliament? · and the representa-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes . tive must keep silent because he has not got a permit.

MR .

GUZANA : I hear you through my left ear and it goes out through my right. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Because you do not want to hear.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: I hope you have seen what Nogcantsi used to do in Mount Frere with his loudspeaker.

MR. GUZANA: I have known you say all sorts of things and keep a straight face . I have come to the stage where I must investigate before I believe anything you say. (Laughter) Is it not a reflection on those who keep law and order in the Transkei that we should seek to bolster them up with Proclamation 400 when there is the ordinary criminal law which can be invoked to keep law and order? THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: They don't want to go about at night and look for these people. MR. GUZANA: It has been suggested that this Proclamation is to protect the chiefs. What are you

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MR . GUZANA: Do you have to suppress the many because of the one? Just as much as a whole nation dies because of one sinner, so is the sinner saved because of the many, and there is a majority of forgiveness because so many are good enough to obey the law. And so we seek to get closer to the people we represent more easily and more quickly so that we may be able to save a situation that might might well deteriorate . Thank you , Mr. Chairman . CHIEF B. HOLOMISA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment. I think this is the third time this Assembly has discussed Proclamation 400. I think, my hon . friend, the

55

On Clause 1

mover, started this proclamation before moving his motion. I do not know whether the law he quoted is intended to work in place of Proclamation 400. I am going to mention a few things which took place during the application of this Proclamation and I will pose the question : Who killed the Europeans at the Bashee Bridge? Who killed leadman Matyila and his sub-headman? Who killed Chief Zwelihle? Will you please tell us what happened to them? Who killed Chief Salakupatwa of Gcalekaland and who was arrested in connection with his death? You are eager to remove Proclamation 400 but what are you going to introduce as a substitute? How can you suggest

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, these are merely preliminary definitions in the Bill.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , can I ask for an explanation of (xxix)? THE MINISTER OF AGRI CULTURE : It is quite straightforward. There are always certain conservation works , such as fences , dams , contours · in fact everything relating to soil conservation, including windmills to scare the crows. (Laughter)

that Proclamation 400 be done away with when we have been asking for armies from the Government to protect ourselves and we still have none ? I would like to know how many guns the mover of the motion has.

MR. W. MADIKIZELA : I would like some explanation on sub- sections (xxvi), (xxvii) and (xxviii). I do not quite understand what these mean. How are they different from the rehabilation scheme?

MR. 0.0. MPONDO: For your information I have three. CHIEF HOLOMISA: I will ask again who is going to do away with the battle-axe menace if this Proclamation is repealed. We in the Mqanduli district no longer leave our huts owing to this battle- axe menace. (Laughter) Our livestock is driven away forcibly while our huts are surrounded by people with battle-axes. (Interj ections) Mr. Chairman , I suggest that we do not leave the people behind and run away from them just because we are members of the Assembly. People are killed in cold blood out in the districts and they have no protection . Members of the police force run away from these boys carrying battle-axes. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF HOLOMISA : I say people in the rural areas are getting wiped out because the members of the police force are unable to deal with these battle-axe carriers because they are afraid of them . Even armed White policemen dare not go to these areas, so you who are eager to get rid of Proclamation 400 please tell us what you are going to substitute for it.

The debate was adjoumed .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: These items mean soil reclamation , soil rehabilitation , but if the hon. member has any difficulty there is a Xhosa version of the Bill.

Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the hon. Mr. L.T. Mazwi unfortunately has to go away because he has received some sad news from home and I have been asked to move this amendment in his name. However, before I speak on the amendment, Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. Minister to motivate on this clause 2 ( a). There is provision for consultation, as we know, in (a) and the approval of the people or the tribal authority being sought, but there is an unpleasant reflection where it says , for instance "if such persons or the tribal authority, as the case may be , fail or fails within thirty days after the date of the meeting in question either to accept the scheme or to state the grounds of any objection thereto , such persons or the tribal authority shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have accepted every provision of the soil conservation scheme. ' The impression is created

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

here that whether the people in fact have not approved the scheme, the scheme shall be proceeded with ; but the failure of the people within thirty days to submit their objections may be reasonably due to the fact that they may still be studying the implications of the scheme. As I said, I would like the hon. Minister to motivate fully here and to take this House into his confidence as to whether the scheme will not be

Prayers were read.

capable of being held over until the people have in fact approved .

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 17th June, 1966 . FRIDAY, 17TH JUNE, 1966

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg to move that the House go into committee to consider the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill, 1966.

CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to. House in Committee

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I rise to motivate before I object to the amendment because, judging from the remarks by the mover, it appears to be some misapprehension of the true position that has led to this amendment. I must say at the very onset that today I am very peaceful and I ask the hon. members to emulate me so that we can go through this as soon as possible. (Laughter) I refer now to the very objective manner in which the hon. member introduces this amendment, but before I motivate further I would ask the House to make a small amendment, which will ease the conscience of my friend, and make the period of thirty days extended to ninety days. That should help to alleviate some of the difficulties you foresee. According to this provision the Minister may instruct his Department to

-380-

prepare a soil conservation scheme in respect of any land. This may appear to be undemocratic and some people may object to it. It must however be pointed out that even if the Minister has instructed his Department to prepare a soil conservation scheme he will still have to go to the people concemed and to the headman or the tribal authority, as the case may be, and to explain the scheme, to hear the objections against it by the people. In practice that will be a soil conservation scheme and it will not be applied unless the people accept it.

be criminal not to take action against soil erosion. MR. RAJUILI : Do you understand what you have said? I think you will have to put that right. You say "it will be criminal ". Now the question is, on whose part? On the part of the people? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No, the Government. It would be criminal if the Government just folded its arms and watched all the soil being washed into the sea. In that case, and in that case only, hon. members, will the Govemment take the courage to step in and help God to save that soil, (Laughter) but even then only after consultation and explanation to the people.

MR. C. DIKO: Why can't you put that in black and white? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It will not be applied until the people have indicated their acceptance. Moreover, ample provision is made for consultation , which you mentioned and which never existed before under Proclamation 116. All that was provided for was that the magistrate should go to the administrative area, explain the provisions of Procla mation 116 to the satisfaction of the people and no opinion was required from them. If the magistrate took a vote it was just out of mere courtsey and it was never a practice that the people should have their objections written down by the magistrate at that meeting, which is the case now, and if at that meeting the people make their objections to the plan ... MR. K.M. GUZANA: And suggestions?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And suggestions - these will be taken back to Umtata. No matter how many objections there are (there may be a hundred of them) we shall consider them at the Department here in the head office and send the officers back for further investigations . MR. RAJUILI: And explanation. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And explanation - that is very good. And then after that explanation the people say: Yes, we understant that but there is still this and that which we do not like in your scheme - and the matter is taken back to Umtata and then our officers go back again. It may be even one red-blanketed woman who has got an objection but we shall consider her objection . MR. RAJUILI: It is nice to hear you adopt that attitude , which we wish you could adopt to their representatives here. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The House must not forget that we deal with people - that is, the tribal authority and the location administrative area until all objections and observations have been reduced to a minimum and then the people say: We are satisfied. It is all right now and you can step in because we understand the scheme and we believe it is for the good of the people and so we accept it. Now, I suppose there is a question among you: What if the people are adamant?

MR. RAJUILI: They cannot be adamant unless you fail to explain understandably. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is very good again . As my hon. friend agrees with me, they cannot be adamant after all these explanations. It is not even anticipated. But suppose it does happen, where conditions are so bad that it would

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, the phrase which gives concem is " to be deemed to have accepted" . THE MINISTER OF AGTICULTURE : Yes , I am coming to that, hon. member, and I am expecting co-operation from you because we were so friendly at Abraham's Kraal yesterday. (Laughter) The Leader has brought to me a very good question which I should elaborate on. The word "deemed" - well, of course, when you reduce this sort of thing to writing it is not possible to write everything, but even then such an occasion will never arise because in the first place, we are going to help those people who have asked us to come and help them. We are not just going to have a sweep over the Transkei beginning from Engcobo, where we know of course there are going to be objections. We shall work with those people who are willing to work with us, just as we have done in the past. The suspicion is created, perhaps, that the Department now wants to enforce rehabilitation. That has been the case for fifteen years. Proclamation 116 provides that the Govemment can step in at any time, but for fifteen years that has never been applied and you can believe that for the next fifteen years , or 25 years , it will not be applied because there will be no need for it after this comprehensive, extensive rehabilitation. After the people have accepted the scheme that has been put on the table for them to chew for three months, · please note, instead of thirty days then the Government will gazette the area as a betterment area in full co-operation with the people and the regional authorities. But, as I said, I am going to be sweet this morning because I see the members are getting homesick, and I shall meet the fear of the hon. mover this time (perhaps for the first time this session) just to alleviate his fears. I am going to allow his amendment, not as it is, (I reject the amendment) but I am meeting him with another amendment which will be even more specific than his. In sub-section (a) after the words "be deemed" we shall insert the word "not" and then at the end of that sub- section we shall add the proviso : " Provided where the land is in danger of irreparable damage, the Government will step in. " So the clause will read: "Provided that, if such persons or the tribal authority, as the case may be, fail or fails within ninety days after the date of the meeting in question either to accept the scheme or to state the grounds of any objection thereto, such persons or the tribal authority shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed not to have accepted every provision of the soil conservation scheme : Provided that where that land is in danger of irreparable damage, the Government will step in. " Now I think that will be acceptable and I move the adoption of clause 2 as amended.

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MR .

MDA: Mr. Chairman, in the light of what I

OCC

consider a very reasonable explanation from the hon. Minister, as well as taking into account his amendment which has just been read out to the House, I think the members on this side of the House have no cause for complaint. The intention of the legislature in this regard has been made quite clear and should there be any breach of that intention in the future we shall then be able to refer to the remarks of the hon. Minister. Those remarks read with the provisions of the Bill will be able to present a formidable case against any arbitrary action on the part of the Government. We have no objection to the amendment and we withdraw our amendment.

to move section 2 and this sub- section falls under it. Now, I take it that that is the intention . Then , Sir, there is also sub-section (7) where you speak of the expiration of twelve months and you suggest that it shall be taken that all acts have been performed in order to have the scheme applied in that area, and that no further representations can be made. You see, that sub; section says "" twelve months from the fixed

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I seem to have got the impression that the Minister may declare the whole of the Transkei as a land for which a soil conservation scheme may be prepared and then go on to take administrative areas in respect of which he may prepare a particular conservation scheme , and

MR. GUZANA : Yes , I am satisfied as to the service of notice in terms of section 33 (a). Now the point I want to push here is after the fixed date is it not possible for the Department to receive representations on this soil conservation scheme during the period of twelve months , because after those twelve months then no representations may be received? Here is another factor on which I would like some explanation. Having fixed the date , does the Department undertake to implement the scheme immediately after that, so that during the twelve months before which you can deem that all things have been done, the people may see the scheme practically applied and their acceptance may be modified in certain respects because the scheme is now being translated on to the soil practically? The scheme, in other

only then will the consultation begin as between the Department, its officials and the administrative area. Am I correct in holding that opinion , Sir? THE MI NISTER OF AGRI CULTURE : Yes.

MR. GUZANA : May I just say it would be of great assistance if the tribal authority would not be regarded as the people who have to be consulted only, but that where the tribal authority is consulted there must be a direction that the tribal authority must go to the people and that the people have actively participated in an examination of the scheme. I am sure your Department has the officials who have the tolerance and the patience to take the people along with them . Now under clause 2 (b), notice is given under this Act to a person whose name and address are known. It may well happen that a person's address may not be known and I take it that nothing can be done until such person has been contacted and that an attempt would be made to serve that notice on him personally, as the matter will affect his land rights. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : If he is an absconder and cannot be traced and has failed to pay his land tax, isn't his land forfeited after three years?

1 MR . GUZANA: No , the question was · supposing we cannot ..

date it shall be presumed conclusively" that everything has been done. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Look at section 33.

words, may be acceptable on paper but there may be practical difficulties and we would like to see the scheme immediately applied after the fixed date so that the practical difficulties which arise will become known to the people and they may be able to make representations on those difficulties, which may be on the Government side, or on the side of the residents or the owner of the land . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Thank you, that is a very constructive point which you have raised and I am very pleased that I am able to help you. I did not take notes because I have got a good memory, but should I fail you can remind me. I would ask the hon. members to have confidence in the Department and to know that the Government loves the people. (Laughter) With regard to the question of consultation which you mentioned at the onset of your speech, I might mention that you need have no fear, because when we speak of the tribal authority we speak of the supreme court in that area. By that I mean the " inkundla" .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE : Yes , (b) refers to private property which cannot be forfeited.

GUZANA: MR . body in the area?

GUZANA : And suppose that person's MR . address is not known ? That is a problem that should be explained to us . This is private property and we cannot get hold of this man. We require that a notice be served on him because the land is being ruined by denudation . What is the Government going to do about that? It is quite possible that the next of kin may be available . What is the position ? Then , Sir, I think with your amendment of ninety days we will have to take into consideration also sub-section (4 ) of clause 2, wehre you have in the third line "thirty days". I do not know if that has been taken account of. THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE : I think the intention was the same - ninety days wherever thirty days occurs. MR. GUZANA: That is why I am drawing the attention of the Minister to it, because he is going -382-

The

supreme administrative

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, where there is no region . Now our main concern is the administrative are a which used to be the location , so there is no fear of never having consulted the people because there is the headman , the sub-headman, who go to the Great Place and there we get the green light to proceed to the tribal authority head who will, of course, sanction whatever the local headman and people have asked for. But my hon . friend will appreciate that it will be difficult for my Department to go to each and every kraal. MR. GUZANA : No , I am not suggesting that , but the tribal authority must now decide the matter without calling all the people and getting an official of your Department to explain to the people fully. THE MINISTER OF

AGRICULTURE: Yes , so

we agree on that. Now, the question about the notice has been disposed of, and with regard to the thirty days, that thirty days should stand because if you read it you find that it is thirty days in addition to the ninety days.

MR .

GUZANA: Yes, we will concede that.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now, to come to fixed date which is after the thirty days , which is after the ninety days since the plan was accepted, it is just for the Department to be able to serve notice to the headman concerned, to the authority and to any body interested, that now the scheme should be implemented - that scheme which they have whole-heartedly accepted. But of course there is nothing rigid, Mr. Chairman . After this hearty consultation there will always be adjustments with the officials of the Department in consultation with the people, and this twelve months does not mean that the scheme must be applied within twelve months. It might take 24 months or even a hundred months or eight years, according to the availability of labour and certain conditions which have to be considered. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Minister, may I just put it quite clearly that the idea is that the scheme should be practically implemented as soon as possible after the fixed date so that as it goes on, consultation and representation should go on with the translation of the scheme on paper into practice. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes, as it progresses. There is nothing rigid, as I have said, and that consultation and that happy handling of affairs can go on for twelve years from this twelve months, but of course that is an exaggeration. It will depend on the people. It will be in their interests to shift in order to give the land time to rehabilitate itself. With those few words, Mr. Chairman , I think I have covered all the points raised. MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, on a point of explanation, please. When we handle the subject matter of rehabilitation we have to handle it very carefully because it is so very unpopular with the people of the Transkei. They have a dispensation not to like it. Here the hon. Minister has an amendment that when the land is in danger the Government will step in. How is the determination going to be made that that particular portion of the land is honestly in danger? It is common knowledge that there are certain areas that have rigidly kicked against rehabilitation . Supposing then, Mr. Minister, your Government declared , for example, the Gcaleka or the Dalindyebo or the Qaukeni region as in danger, the entire region, and then when the Government takes the necessary steps, will the tribesmen of those regions not think that you are forcing the scheme? Naturally if there are any people who object, they are arrested. Further, in the draft Bill there is nothing obligatory on the tribal authority to convene a meeting of the people, so that there is this aspect · that the tribal authority can accept the scheme without consulting the people. THE MINISTER OF AGRI CULTURE : No. MR. ZIBI : I am therefore asking for a point of explanation and I wish the hon. Minister to cover that ground. You should please appreciate the fact that these people have been subjected to a lot of unfair fines for cutting fences and there have been

many other case s where they were accused of having trespassed. Practically speaking it means that a few people can go and see the authorities and say: We do now want rehabilitation , but it is just So-and-so (naming some people) who do not want it. It usually happens that those people are then detained. I am speaking from practical experience, Mr. Chairman. At times you find that out of those five, perhaps, there are people who have struggling businesses and they feel that if the people were in close proximity then their businesses would improve. My fear therefore is that in your amendment, where the land is in danger, then the Government mav therefore declare the whole area a betterment area. Can you assure us that this Bill seeks to provide full consultation with the Transkei people?

t THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I am sorry the hon. member for Maluti should try and rake up what we have already passed very amicably, particularly as I made a concession which was even more than was asked for. I know that this

Ec E a

section has not been passed, but it is not fair to ask me to repeat and repeat. It is not for me to go into this again, so I think what I shall answer to is just the allegation, which is also unfortunate, that the Government can with a storke of the pen declare the whole of the Transkei , or the whole of Gcalekaland a soil conservation area. There is no such thing that the whole of the Transkei at the same time is so eroded that the Goverment must take steps . MR. ZIBI : Please withdraw the amendment then, if that is the case. THE MINISTER OF AGRI CULTURE : But the amendment has been accepted .

A TO

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MR. ZIBI : By whom?

se THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : By the hon. Mr. Mda and, in fact, by the whole House. OPPOSITION MEMBER: No , it has not been put

yet. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: His amendment has been withdrawn. I will just leave it at that. Now with regard to consultation, he admits that there is an ample provision for consultation , but now I do not find any difficulty when he says if there is consultation we must consult the headman and the headman will give us the green light to approach the tribal authority. Of course we have to do that if the people want it, but to say now that half a dozen people will come to the Government and say they want rehabilitation , where will they come in when we say we want consultation with the people? I can assure the member that there will be no more fence cutting after the application of this Act. I can just give you an instance in Gcalekal and where about a mile of fence had been cut before I went there. I spoke to the people in the most remote areas, in the most inaccessable corner of Gcalekaland and I found there were over 500 people there and I explained to them very calmly that in cutting the fences they were cutting their own throats. I pointed out to them that there is no objection to anybody leaving a fenced area for another unfenced area if this fence is doing them any harm and I told them that they were anti-social because whenever a fence is cut the spoor law is applied and the people have to pay. It is true that people would come from remote areas and cut fences in other areas. Well, Mr. Chaimman, to cut a

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long story short the people understood the position. They just gaped with their mouths open and they said the members for Gcalekaland had never approa ched anywhere near them to explain this position. They last saw their members on election day.

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1

(Laughter) To crown it all, Mr. Chairman , to finish off, I am very proud that I was given the highest tribute any officer of the Government has ever been given by those people, which I still value. At the end of the meeting they were so happy that they brought me a she- goat and asked me to take this as a sign of the peace that has been established between my Department and them, and I took the she- goat home . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in Act 4 of 1965 (the Transkei an Authorities Act), section 12 (e ) (v ) the regional authority is given authority to advise the Goverment in connection with matters affecting the land. However an amendment has just been inserted by the Minister which stipulates that where the Minister is aware that the land has been so badly damaged that it is in danger, he will take steps . In section 2 of the Bill it is not stipulated that the regional authority can take action and advise the Government, as is stated in the Transkei Authorities Act. I thought the Minister would say that where they are aware that the land has been very badly eroded they would approach the regional authorities and ask them to consult with the people, and that the Government would not take action on their own. Since you have given that authority to the tribal authorities , why do you take action now over their heads? I take it that the tribal authorities, having consulted with the people, will also consult with the regional authorities .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Look at subsection (a) CHIEF NDAMASE: I want to ask the Minister if the tribal authorities are being put over the regional authority according to this Bill, because rehabilita tion may have certain effects among the people. In some areas already some people have been deprived of their land and they are forced to go to work centres . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please keep to your question, hon. member. Do not mention influx control because this is nothing to do with that.

who is co-operative and responsible, and we go by the conclusion of the tribal authorities who are members of the regional authority, perhaps , and the opinion of the authorities will be gauged. But in accordance with my spirit this moming, I will help the hon. member although he is rather premature, and I am willing to make a change in clause 2 ( 1). The words "after consultation with any regional authority concerned" can be included after the word "time" in the first line. So I will meet the hon. Chief who is a member of the regional authority.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have an amendment that clause 2 ( 2) (b) be amended by the insertion of the word " not" after the word "deemed". Mr. Chairman, in regard to this word which I am asking to be inserted, according to this section it stipulates that if a person has not given his consent in time it will be considered that he has accepted the scheme. This refers to privately owned land and it is on that account that I feel if a person has not given his consent then it will be understood that he has accepted, because his not replying makes it clear that there is some doubt. I am well aware that this Bill before us is an effort to help and co-operate with the people , particularly those who are interested in agriculture. It is regretted , however, that we did not have time to discuss the principles underlying the Bill because if we had had that opportunity the matters we are now raising would have been explained at the time. I am convinced that there is misunderstanding between the Department and the people and that is due to the fact that the people have not been consulted by the Department. It is very important that the language used in connection with agriculture and the land must be such that the people can understand, and whatever schemes are being put into operation must be so put that they will be attractive to the people, and will attract those who have not had the opportunity of putting them into practice . I want the hon. Minister to take note that we are in co-operation with him on matters connected with agriculture and we would like to be of help to his Department on these matters. I would also like it to be perfectly clear that for this agricultural project to be progressive it must begin in the Assembly here by co-operation between the Department and the Assembly, and I feel that the members who can particularly help the scheme forward are the chiefs. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just tell us why you want to amend this.

CHIEF NDAMASE: I want to make it clear that this rehabilitation has an effect on the life of the people and I am trying to make clear that there are no people who would realise the importance of rehabilitation more than the regional authorities . I have specially referred to this new amendment and I make a request that the regional authorities be consulted before the Govemment takes any steps regarding the improvement of any area under a regional authority. I hope you will not say I should have put this in yesterday, because the amendment is new. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It is difficult, of course , to consider an amendment which is not on proper lines , but I might say that what the hon. member is calling for is perhaps provided for even better than before. In fact, we are changing the regional authority and tribal authority to a more executive body under this Act, in the delegation of powers which will come later on. The Government will have no objection at all to consulting anybody -384-

MR. JAFTA: I have already made it clear why I want the word " not" inserted, because it must not be taken that a person has accepted until he has really accepted. Further, it must be remembered that the person who is referred to here holds the land. I am referring to section (b) which refers to privately owned land . It is on that account that I feel it should not be presumed that he has agreed until he has specifically stated so. It must not be forgotten, that discussion and consultation is the only thing that will appeal to an individual. I do not think anybody to whom an explanation is given and who is aware that something is for his own benefit will not co-operate. That amendment referring to demonstrations will also encourage people to realise the usefulness of the scheme the Department has on hand. My amendment is perfectly clear. It is merely to insert the word "not" after "deemed" . A person will be convinced by good results and he will therefore accept the scheme. I am referring to a per-

son who does not agree that his land be rehabilitated. What I am objecting to is that if he does not say that he accepts , he will be deemed to have accepted. You take it here that he will be deemed to have given his consent if he does not reply. I do not wish to waste the time of the House because the amendment is very clear.

MR . GUZANA: Chairman.

I second the amendment, Mr.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I have already asked hon. members not to make mountains out of molehills because I am convinced

Minister's

amendment that where

the land

is in

danger the Government will step in? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Yes. MR. ZIBI : In other words we are called upon to vote upon an insidious implementation of rehabilitation which is said to be voluntary? An explanation, please. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We have already put the question on these two sub-sections , clause 2 (1) and (2). We have gone as far as sub- section (2) now. That has been accepted.

that the complaint of the hon. member is just wasting time. MR. GUZANA: If I may explain . In section (a) you agreed to put in the " not" . Now here is an owner of privately owned land , couldn't the same reasons justify the insertion of "not" in this sub-section? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , the case is not the same. The hon. member must have it clearly in his mind that this privilege of granting land to farmers is really an innovation . When I tour the country, in the Umzimkulu area particularly I have people pulling me by the ears, asking me for this same privilege . We did not think therefore that people who are progressive or who are in earnest about getting this privilege would have the audacity to keep quiet and not to reply within three months. Such a person does not really deserve any help. As a matter of fact I think he is just the type of person who is better forgotten . When we assented to this amendment we were considering an administrative area. We give a person the privilege of raising his objections and making suggestions and then he just keeps quiet.

MR . H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it is in order for you to put sub-sections instead of the whole section? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Do you want me to put the whole section? MEMBERS: Yes.

The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that the House has adjourned itself without waiting for you , I move that that the House adjourn until Monday. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 20th June, 1966 .

MONDAY, 20TH JUNE, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , in the areas where you have consultation with the tribal authorities , I understand that under the Republican Soil Conservation Act there is provision for district committees where the farmers are represented in the areas such as Umzimkulu . Do you have any such associations, or are you merely dealing with the individual farmers? In an area such as Umzimkulu , for instance , by this committee scheme MR . GUZANA: May I just put it more clearly, Mr. Chairman? I think what the hon. member wishes to ask is where there are private farmers , will you consider by regulation establishing committees? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I see no objection to that because the Bill has made provision for committees who are going to be advisory to the Minister, and farmers can be represented on those committees. THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN : I would like to

know if the hon . Mr. Jafta is satisfied on that section ?

MR. JAFTA: I am satisfied , Mr. Chairman. I will withdraw the amendment, with the consent of my seconder.

Prayers were read. The minutes of Friday, 17th June, were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, sometime during the course of this session I announced that the Assembly would adjoum on Wednesday, 22nd June, 1966. I wish to announce this moming that it may not be possible for this House to adjourn on that day because of the Bill before the House, and the House will adjoum as soon as this Bill has gone through all its stages. Now, Mr. Chairman, I move that the rules of this House be suspended in order to permit that each clause of this Bill during the committee stage will not exceed twenty minutes. Mr. Chairman, I just want to make a few remarks with regard to this motion which I am submitting now. It has become clear from the amendments which have been put forward by the Opposition that my hon. friends across the floor are making every attempt to stifle the proceedings of this House. We cannot remain here for more than the period which is allowed to this Assembly during each year and in the circumstances, in consultation with the Cabinet, I have decided to move that a guillotine be applied

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I will not put the

so that we may be in a position to get through this Bill within the shortest possible time.

MR . ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , does that include the

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: I second, Mr.

THE section

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Chairman.

on the House with the original time allowed by the original rule which it is sought to have suspended.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman , I stand up to oppose the guillotine motion put forward , and the spirit in which it is being brought up. In the first place the hon. the Chief Minister says he is moving a motion to suspend the rules of procedure. I just want to know why he is trying to do that. Which rules is he suspending?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , it is rule 30 (2) . That is the rule with regard to time. That motion only refers to the question of time allotted to the clauses. MR . MDA: That rule provides that no member shall in any committee of the whole House speak on any draft bill for more than ten minutes and for more than three consecutive periods. I feel that the motion by the hon. the Chief Minister might have been reasonable if he had proposed the suspension of the provision whereby a member can address the Assembly three consecutive times, but to suggest twenty minutes on each clause is tantamount to saying there should be no discussion at all .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The rules pertaining to the time allowed to members on a Bill in the committee stage. Look it up.

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MR. RAJUILI : The hon. the Chief Minister is seeking to penalise the House in the way things should go through the House. It is a right that must and always shall be enjoyed by menbers of this House to amend any piece of legislation in the way they think best.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : There can be discussion. You can speak for five minutes · two speakers on each side for five minutes each .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I have given you time twenty minutes. You can speak for five minutes. It is enough .

MR. MDA: What about the time taken for interpretation , which takes more than half the time of each speaker?

MR. RAJUILI : We suggest that the Govemment should give out these bills in good time. They bring in a bill like this at the last moment and then want to guillotine the discussion . When we do our rightful duty of reviewing the Bill presented to us, our action is deliberately misconstrued in order to bring in guillotine motions.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE : Two and ahalf minutes to the speaker and two and a half minutes to the interpreter.

MR. MDA: I suggest that the motion reducesthe whole thing to a farce and it can be proved that this side of the House was very co-operative on Friday.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have information that you are doing this intentionally . MR. RAJUILI: You generally collect misinformation somehow. We are trying to do our duty and we shall do it without any intimidation whatsoever.

THE CHAIRMAN : A motion has been moved and seconded. We must get on with it now and put it to the vote. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I rise to plead with the mover of the motion which has been placed before the House, because there is a bill before the House which will affect seriously the whole of the Transkei. Every African lives by of his stock, as well as by the use of the soil and very many of the Bantu people subsist by employment. As soon as you do anything that affects both the stock and the land on which the people live, then you are placing them at the mercy of their employers.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: There is no intimidation about it.

MR. RAJUILI: I oppose the motion , Mr. Chair-

man. MR. C.S. MDA: I second, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can speak for five minutes and finish your address . THE CHAIRMAN : Is there any more debate on this? I shall not allow members more than ten minutes on this.

MR. MDA: I think it was proper for the hon. the Chief Minister, if he wants to suspend the rules of the House, to cite specifically the rule to which he refers. THE CHAIRMAN: I think it is rule 166, but you should know that rule. MR. MDA: It is precisely on the strength of this rule that you refer to that I rise to make my observations. It is clearly stated here that any rule of procedure of sessional order of the Assembly may be suspended- any rule- and I submit that the mover of the motion should have referred to the rule which he seeks to have suspended in this House. On the contrary he has moved a blanket motion and we want to be referred to the specific rule that it is sought to suspend so that we may be able to compare the the time that the guillotine motion seeks to impose

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think the hon . member for Nyanda region had ample time to discuss the principles of this Bill during the second reading thereof. I think you had better draw him to the motion which refers to the suspension of the rules. He may not at this stage discuss the principles of the Bill.

CHIEF NDAMASE: I thank the hon. the Chief Minister for guiding me as he has done. It is because by this motion you want the Bill to go through before the members of this House have even thoroughly understood it that I speak as I do . You might as well state openly that you want the people to be taken by surprise because that is what this Bill is doing. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the best Bill for the people. CHIEF NDAMASE: I say this is the worst bill ever brought to this Assembly. I appeal to the hon. members to be forbearing on this Bill because it deals with the very life of the people and it is going to make the people dependent upon their employers.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would be happy if the attitude of the Opposition members were on a par with their speeches in their endeavours to mislead this side of the House. Last Friday we had an interview with the Leader of the Opposition, owing to the importance of the present Bill, and also because he said he realised that there was some ignorance on the part of the people, and that was why there was this protracted discussion on it. We also reached an agreement whereby a few of the members of the Opposition and a few of the Govemment party would be taken along to the legal advisers , there to be instructed on the provisions of this Bill . Unfortunately, the Government party members were waiting at the appointed place and at the appointed time, when the Leader of the Opposition came and said his party would not even listen to such a sugges tion. It had been made perfectly clear that this meeting would not be binding upon anybody, but the motive was that we should be educated on the

AYES

clauses of the Bill. They said they did not want any explanation about it. To prove that it is difficult to understand the mentality of the Opposition, there is actually an amendment for the deletion of the word "reclamation " and the substitution by the word "rehabilitation" . I have never heard such nonsense. They are exactly the same thing and I can see no reason for the substitution of the word "reclamation" by "rehabilitation " .

MR. RAJUILI: You will see the reason when we discuss it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTI CE: Are you going to continue sitting here talking nonsense? I second the motion.

THE CHAIRMAN : I shall put the motion. The motion was carried by 57 votes to 35 after a division as follows: -

NOES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditswa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Zwwlenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapassa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupingo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Maj eoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mgungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheket she Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahla Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Raj uili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Vistor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Tellers : 1. M. Dumalisile 2. Z. Chemane

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N

Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanyo Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingaphantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. C. S. Mda. 2. J. Ntola

TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE .

in this matter because we must believe that the hon. Minister and the Government have considered this clause again, and it is therefore necessary for us to ask him again for a motivation.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House go into committee.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It original stand.

was your

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. MR. BUBU: As I said, we provided for amendments in this original paragraph , some of which were withdrawn as a result of the motivation he gave and some of which were withdrawn because of an amendment that he himself made at the time.. I therefore consider that now that he has withdrawn the whole proviso there, we may also have to reconsider the position of the amendments we had moved.

House in Committee The debate on clause 2 was resumed. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before we proceed I beg your indulgence to move a couple of amendments from the Government side. With your leave I wish to move the following consequential amendment . It is consequential upon the amendment accepted in respect of clause 2 ( 1) . I move:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are you going to amend a withdrawn proviso?

That the following definition be inserted after the definition of " private land” - “ regional authority " means a regional authority as defined in section 1 of the Authorities Act.

MR . BUBU: guidance .

I am asking the Chairman for

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The amendments made last Friday were in connection with this proviso and the Minister concerned had been asked to motivate on the whole clause , and he did so. I see no reason why we shall now revert to what we disposed of on Friday. I would have no objection to the hon. Minister being asked to motivate the clauses that were not dealt with last Friday .

In clause 2 (1 ) I move the following amendments:-

That the words "after consultation with any regional authority concerned" be inserted after the word "time" . This amendment was accepted on Friday and I now move it formally. I also move: -

MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman, the proviso which is now being deleted by the hon. Minister make provision for cases where the people do not acceptthe proposed scheme, or where they have been silent after the scheme has been put to them . In that case we ask the hon. Minister to tell the House what he proposes to do, seeing that he has now deleted that proviso which had been placed to provide for such an eventuality.

That the proviso to paragraph (a) , sub-section (2 ) be deleted . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , there was also an amendment by the hon . Minister that where the land is considered to be badly eroded the Government would step in. Is that also deleted?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have already made my decision that we are not going to revert to that part of the clause any more, and I am calling upon the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase to continue with his amendment.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , the whole thing. MR . H.H.T.N. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , when we considered clause 2 , sub- section (2) (a) , the hon. Minister gave a certain type of motivation as a result of which some of us became convinced that it was necessary for them to move certain amend-

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman....

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you going to dispute this matter?

ments. Seeing that the position has now materially changed in that the Minister now sees fit to withdraw the proviso he had originally provided , I want to know whether you will then allow us to assume our original position and also to know from you whether you will consider it in order for us to ask him again for a motivation in that he has now disposed of certain clauses that he had originally provided. I consider it is proper to ask for guidance

MR . BUBU: No, we are not going to dispute.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am asking you to sit down then. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. members across the floor want to expedite

-388-

matters and if they are satisfied that the reason for that amendment is clear then they may want to withdraw some of these amendments. MR. BUBU: That is possible.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Is that the intention then, to withdraw some of these amendments? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They have amendments on clause 2 and they submit that they may withdraw all those amendments on clause 2 if they are satisfied that the Minister will not enforce any rehabilitation against people who have not accepted the scheme. In other words, I am not clear as to what motivation they require because it is clear that by the removal of that proviso there will be no enforcement of the scheme and the other subsections merely relate to people who have accepted the scheme. I do not know what the Minister is going to motivate on. MR. BUBU: The position is in connection with the proviso made by the hon. Minister. He had foreseen that a situation might arise that after the scheme has been explained people might be silent, or the people might make objections , and then he made a provision for that.

serted the word "not" after " deemed" in subsection (a), but not in (b). The reason why it was inserted in (a) and not in (b) is that these types of land are not the same and the same reason why it was applied to (b) is the same reason today. I am assuming that you remember the reasons given on Friday and because there is no time I am not going to expatiate on those reasons. CHIEF NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , in my amendment , if I am not mistaken there was an agreement on the number of days stipulated , which is thirty days . I think it was altered to ninety days. My amendment is to make it six months . I am not prepared to withdraw for these reasons : (Interjections) I am giving an example in connection with a location. If you are going to reclaim the land in a location and there are private farms adjoining, you must hold a meeting. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What meeting are you talking about? This concerns a private farm . CHIEF NDAMASE: In the Republic a committee is formed composed of farmers . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This

is the

Transkei , not the Republic.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What do you want? MR. MDA: The hon. Minister indicated that if the people are silent the Government might act without actually getting their consent. We want the Minister to tell us what will happen now. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is a pity that today the attorney for the other side is not present and therefore the members on the other side are meandering in a mist . The Minister who will be in charge of the Department cannot enforce any scheme without a law enabling him to do so . In the past Proclamation 116 of 1949 did not provide for any consultation and, in fact , it enabled the authorities to enforce the scheme , but despite the legal effect enabling the authorities to enforce the scheme they did not enforce it in the past. Now we have this section which provides for full consultation with the people. If the scheme has been explained to the people and they accept it, then the Government carries on with the scheme. If they do not, or if they object, the Department will consider their objections and tell them that that is their finding in connection with their objection. And if the people do not accept the scheme despite all that, the Department leaves them alone in terms of this section. There is nothing else · nothing hidden , because everything is contained in this piece of paper. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , before I move my amendment I would like to be clear about sub-section (2) (b). In sub-section (a) the proviso has been deleted but there is a similar proviso in (b). I would like some motivation on that. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The motivation was made last Friday. It is still the same.

CHIEF NDAMASE: The deleted in (a). Why not in (b)?

proviso has been

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, if ever the hon . member was clever at school that cleverness has disappeared now with age. (Laughter) It will be understood that last Friday we in-

CHIEF NDAMASE: In your Government I do not know why you are not prepared to have farmers' committees established . (Interjections) There should be a meeting at which the farmers can express their views and get an explanation of the scheme. Do you want them to approach the Government each time? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That's right. MR. O.O. MPONDO: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I stand up to oppose the amendment by the hon. member and I do not propose to expatiate any more. In fact we discussed this here on Friday , so I just want to move that this side of the House does not accept.

and hon. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman members , under clause 2 (4) (a) I move that the word "head" be substituted by the word " people " . The idea is that the tribal authorities in which the heads will be included should be fully aware of what is going on and should be consulted. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is the notice that must be served on the head and not on the people. What mentality! MR . RAJUILI : It is common somethings, whether they be notices or what, never get to the people. Our idea is that the people must know what is going on. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You say it must be served on the people. How many notices do you want? MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I stand up to oppose the amendment. In the first place it is ridiculous be cause it seeks that the Department should serve notices to all the people in the administrative area The hon. member has so much contempt for tribal and regional authority heads that he will skip them and go to the people. In that event I treat it with the -389-

quite simple, Mr. Chairman . The section seeks to provide for successors in title. This is necessary because the successors have got to be bound by whatever arrangements have been made with the owner to rehabilitate that land, otherwise the man who succeeds to this farm might pull down the fences and do anything without referring to the Department.

contempt it deserves . MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I move my amendment exactly as it stands. It is not in conflict with anything in the clause , Mr. Chairman. The clause states that the Minister may apply the soil conservation scheme with such modifications thereof as he may consider necessary . It goes on to say that he will also serve , or cause to be served, by notice under this Act a copy of that scheme upon the authority or owner of the land . The 1 proviso that I seek to insert here is in respect of the application of the scheme . It proposes that clause 2(4) (a) and (b) inclusive be amended by the addition of the following proviso: "Provided that where objections are made the Minister shall cause further meetings to be held for the people...."

MR. RAJUILI : Now the idea of this amendment is that the successors should be informed . They might come years after without knowing what has been happening. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this is very well provided for, because the title deeds of the farm have to be endorsed accordingly, so that any changes which occur on the farm in regard to reclamation or otherwise should always be in black and white so that it should never be forgotten . The man who takes over, takes over on the same commissions as appear on that document.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think you have allowed more than twenty minutes on this clause and I think in the light of the decision of this House the debate should be closed after twenty minutes. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You can read that proviso and finish.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, it looks as if there is some light on this now. One Minister is trying to explain, if he could just tell us a little further.

MR. BUBU: "Provided that where objections are made the Minister shall cause further meetings to be held for the people by whom such objections are made to facilitate that the matter may be investigated further with a view to securing understanding and approval of the scheme by all concemed." The intention is clear , Mr. Chairman . It is just that the Minister must secure the co-operation of the people , irrespective of the application 3 of the scheme. I find no reason why anybody should have any objection to this. THE * fluous.

MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It

is super-

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, he is requesting me to explain it in Sesotho so that he can understand better.

MR. RAJUILI : That's right. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Nothing will be changed in the title deed . The title deed will remain as it is . All that will be done is to endorse the transfer to the inheritor, so naturally he will get the certificate with all the conditions embodied in that certificate.

MR. RAJUILI : That means therefore that the inheritor will be bound by the conditions stipulated on the title deed even if he may not approve of them?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I stand to oppose it . MR. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , here states that clause 2 (4) (b) be addition of the following words at paragraph : "or his representative if his address is unknown ."

my amendment amended by the the end of the or next of kin

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Yes . MR . RAJUILI : In view of this explanation I will withdraw the amendment , Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Have you looked up section 33? It is provided there. Notices under the Act · there is ample provision there and also under the definition of "owner" .

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman , in the absence of the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana and on his behalf I wish to move the amendment which appears in his name. Perhaps the hon . Minister will first set our anxiety at ease in so far as the period set out in that provision is concerned. I will the refore ask for his motivation of that provision , Mr. Chairman . I may possibly then withdraw the amendment.

MR . MPONDO : In view of that explanation which I had overlooked , I will withdraw. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , would the hon. Minister please give some motivation on this #clause 2 (5) (b) before I move my amendment to delete the words "and their successors in title "?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I am pleased that the hon. member is prepared to withdraw this because the amendment was brought under a misapprehension. The period of twelve months allowed in which all the provisions contained in sections 2 , 3 and 4 will have to be complied with will give the people and the Department sufficient time to meet the requirements of the Bill. I suppose you want to extend the period to 24 months , but there would be no point in that because, before any work is started on reclamation as such or soil conservation, and before anything is gazetted , the people will have accepted it and moreover there would be no point in saying that the Department

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is your objection to those words? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is legal language - he cannot understand it .

MR. RAJUILI : We are not all lawyers. Mr. Chairman , will the hon. Minister explain this and perhaps we will come to some understanding. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This is -390-

should not proceed with the scheme for such a long period because the people always make these decisions late and they want the work to start immediately. So there will be no need to tie the Department for a period of 24 months so that they can do nothing whereas the people will want to proceed with rehabilitation.

and have approved, I am satisfied that there is no need for an extended period.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have three amendments to this clause and I shall start with the one moved by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. The amendment was lost by 31 votes to 49.

MR. MDA: In the light of the explanation from the hon. Minister that the scheme will have to be applied only after the people have been consulted

The amendment by the hon . Mr. B.S. Rajuili was lost by 29 votes to 50 after a division as follows:

NOES

AYES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Tellers: 1 M. Dumalisile 2 Z. Chemane

Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlele Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane

Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The debate was adjourned.

The debate on clause 2 of the Transkei Agri cultural Development Bill was resumed.

AFTERNOON SESSION. The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 21 votes to 29.

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

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Clause 2 of the Bill, as amended, put and agreed to by 42 votes to 27 after a division as follows:

NOES

AYES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Chief Sandy S. Majeke Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. Z. Chemane 2. K.G. Nota

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sin eke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Mätanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

the Secretary. My amendment is that all the words after "Goverment” in clause 3 should be deleted. I am quite certain you do not understand rehabilitation. In the areas where there is rehabilitation there are several proclamations . If you do not pay for your allotment for three years the land is taken away from you. Take the example of a man who is away from home for several years and no one pays for his allotment on his behalf. Will you wait for three years while you are looking for this man and allow the land to be eroded? (Interjections) Let us come to this point: Take a case of a person who is not at home but who has gone where he cannot be found. A law is then made to the effect that the plot may not be tilled untill………….

On Clause 3 MR . C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I note that in this House there is discussion even when a matter is quite plain. I therefore appeal to the members and I shall try to be of assistance to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , for he says that he takes care of the land. We are all agreed there . The land belongs to the Government and it is in the hands of the Govemment. Should the land be eroded then complaints are referred to the Government. Even the young people have composed a song to say "Madikizela threw away the fertility of the land. " (Laughter) Here is my advice to the hon. Minister and I am sure it will be accepted by the Minister and by the Secretary of his Department.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Deal with reclamation .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Don't refer to the Secretary .

MR . MNYILA: The man does not mind because he is quite happy where he is.

MR . MNYILA: I did not say anything against

MR . L.Z. MAJIJA: I second the amendment. -392-

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I oppose the amendment but I might just add, for the benefit of the House , that if the amendment were to be adopted it would mean an enormous expense on the part of the Government. The mover implies that all these conservation works should be done entirely by the Government, and even on private land, and then the farmers can just fold their hands and do nothing which , of course, is characteristic of the African people. In those circumstances, Mr. Chairman , and particularly as provision is amply made for people who cannot undertake soil conservation works on privately owned land, we cannot accept the amendment.

he actually replied to....

THE DEPUTY gone, hon . member.

Your time has

MR. NOTA: I thought the Minister would inform the House as to the land betterment fund available, or otherwise tell the House that there is no such fund. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , it was there during the Bunga days. MR . MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, if I had my way I would not go along the foolish lines along which the House is going. A bill is placed before the House to be discussed and then

MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. memread as bers, this amendment should actually follows : That clause 3 (a) be amended by the substitution of the words "and/or by" after the word "Govemment" , so that the whole clause would read thus: " The soil conservation works which shall be constructed and maintained by the Government and/or by the owner of the land..." Mr. Chairman, the idea of this amendment is that I note the Government intends taking steps in regard to the land that belongs to the Government . It is not clear however that they intend to carry out this scheme on privately owned land. The purpose of this amendment is to make it impossible for the Govemment to withdraw if the work has been started, if the owners of the land wish reclamation to be carried out. You will note that the Government may want work undertaken on private land which may be much more costly than the owner of the land can afford. This Government may say that all that work must be undertaken by the owner of the land. As you will note, the amendment says " and/or by the owner" . If the hon. Minister could make it clear that the owner of the land will not be left in the lurch....?

we are told it may not be discussed. I know a case where I had a farm of my own and the Government comes along to tell me what to do with my farm what sort of seeds to plant, when to plant, what fertilisers to use · and thereafter I should be able to say I have a plot of my own. I shall always refer to Russia because this is the law pertaining in Russia, which you are trying to force on us , where the Government has all the power to control land whether private or not. It is on that account that I say this whole clause should be deleted . I cannot understand how a person who owns a plot can be told exactly how to manage that plot . Some of you have not even got homes or land, but all you do is tomake bills that will not be accepted by the people. There is nothing acceptable in this law. (Interjections) You cannot say you have cattle or property when you are told by someone else how to manage it. You say you have land, but you cannot do what you like with it. I oppose this clause , 3 (f), and I move that it be deleted . MR.

MR . L.T. MAZWI : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: What the mover of the amendment asks for, Mr. Chairman , is amply provided for in the Bill. If he had studied it more he would find that his amendment is superfluous or redundant. The Government takes into consideration the status of the farmer, the financial position of the farmer and everything, then it assesses what works have to be done by the Govemment or the farmer. So there is no question of the Govemment running away from the man. The Government may even pay the whole cost of the scheme which

G.G.

KUTU:

I second,

Mr. Chairman.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is very pathetic to listen to this talk because I doubt whether the hon . mover has any land or any fertiliser at all. The provision here is not something rigid. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Then why put it in? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The main point in this provision is that the Govemment should have some control. The Government should be able, through its officers, to stop a man ploughing up and down the slope and to encourage the construction of contour strips and retaining banks . (Interjections)

then is done by the Government , or it may pay 50 per cent , 25 per cent or nought per cent, which would then be the case of the hon . Mr. Nota, who is a multi-millionaire , or of Mr. Khotso. (Laughter) MR. RAJUILI : What happens when the owner cannot raise his percentage?

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

MR . W.Z. LUFEFENI : All right , you can do what you like.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It is done by the Government who is interested in the reclamation of the soil . It will make all the arrangements and arrange a subsidy or a rebate stretched over a number of years , so that the farmer will find it easy to repay . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does member wish his amendment to stand?

CHAIRMAN:

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You can't that to the Chairman .

talk like

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Where is the Sergeant-at-Arms? Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , I am naming the hon . member , Mr. Lufefeni, out of this House for the rest of the session .

the hon.

MR. NOTA: I want the House to know that I

The hon . Mr. Lufefeni was escorted from the

wish the amendment to stand because in speaking of financial commitments the hon . Minister did not

Assembly Hall by the Sergeant-at-Arms .

actually come to the points I had raised. The point

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I was just

-393-

says that every soil conservation

scheme shall state the objects and scope thereof, shall define the land to which it applies and may include these sub-clauses. It may contain these things when the scheme is actually taken to the people and it will be for the people, for instance , to say: We don't want (i ) and they send in their objections . And it will be for the people again to say they do not want what the hon . Mr. Mazwi referred to when the scheme is actually taken to them. This is unlike the old Proclamation 116 where the people were just asked whether they accepted or not before being told what they were accepting. Here you bring all these things to the people so that when they accept, if

finishing a few words, Mr. Chairman . We ate interested in subsidising his fertiliser and we will not do it of course unless he farms according to modem methods . The hon . mover of the amendment seeks that all the part the Government has to play in seeing that the land is being properly farmed should be taken away so this side of the House I cannot accept such a foolish situation .

3

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall pass on to the next amendment.

MR. H.H. ZIBI : Can we not discuss this? It is not twenty minutes yet. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It is twenty minutes for the whole clause.

MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman , this amendment is to the effect that clause 3 (g) be deleted . If you look carefully at (g) you will find it is exactly the same as (f). The Transkei Govemment wants to be a farmer over all the land of the Transkei and then they would turn all the inhabitants into squatters. In plain language , Mr. Chairman , that was the position but the people did not understand it. Sub-sections (f) and (g) make it clear that the people are squatters on the land. I appeal to the Govemment to delete this clause so that the people may not feel that they are squatters on the land and that they may be able to accept other clauses in this Bill. I do not see any reason why the Government should go so deep into the agricultural life and operations carried on by the people , to the extent that they should even stipulate how stock feed should be kept and where it should be kept. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second,

Mr. Chairman .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I will not expatiate on this except to say that the Government rejects it entirely. MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman , my amendment is to the effect that sub-clause 3 (i) be deleted. This sub- clause deals with the grazing capability of the land, including the assessment of the number of livestock units to be grazed thereon . My reason for desiring this to be deleted is because we have been repeatedly told that the reduction of stock has come to an end here in the Transkei and you note that this sub- clause has been put in. That makes it clear that what has been said in the Assembly is not the truth . This reduction of stock is a question that causes people a great deal of difficulty. It is exactly that which makes rehabilitation so objectionable to the people , to the extent that people may not have as many beasts as they would like to have. The hon . Minister of Agriculture has always told us that the reduction of stock has come to an end. Will he stand up and tell us that that is not true? It is on that account that we wish this clause to be deleted.

MR.

K.G.

NOTA:

I second ,

they accept, they must know what they are accepting. Are you saying now that the people must not be told what they have to accept or reject? There are some people who would like to see their grazing capacity maintained . (Interjections) Leave it to the people to decide for themselves. (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : All these things are taken to the people either to accept or reject and I think it is foolish for anybody to anticipate what the people will say . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I oppose this amendment in its entirety . MR . C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, a few days ago the hon . Minister gave this House to understand that the cattle population of the Transkei was decreasing and that stock limitation by way of culling had been suspended. Now we see in this section (j ) that provision is made for the restriction of the numbers , etc. , of livestock, and I think we are being misled when it is said here that Proclamation 116 of 1949 more or less forced things on the people. A few days ago I made reference here to a case in Bizana where a report had been taken to the magistrate that the people in a certain location had accepted rehabilitation . The magistrate took it upon himself to go and investigate personally at the headquarters of that location . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Are you prepared to give the name of the headman? MR . MDA: The magistrate called a meeting of the people at the Great Place and there it was ascertained that there had been no discussion of rehabilitation , upon which the magistrate advised the people that rehabilitation would never be forced upon them unless they themselves asked for it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: That was correct. MR . MDA: It was correct in accordance with Proclamation 116 of 1949. That is why I say we are being misled when we are told that Proclamation 116 could enforce rehabilitation . It did not enforce it. In any event my amendment seeks to delete all reference to the restriction in numbers of stock .

Mr. Chairman .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just wish to explain section (3) which is being misconstrued by the side across the floor. They will note that in clause 2 they were told that before any scheme is undertaken that scheme will be prepared and taken to the people and the people will send back their objections and observations. Now this section merely

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What would be the use of reclamation?

MR. MDA: From the admission of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture there should be no need for that because the numbers are fast decreasing in the Transkei . -394-

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just because there is no controlled grazing , that is why.

they will not even accept provisions which are intended for the good of the people. You take the position in Glen Grey district today. I wonder what you would be saying when the people have been forced to accept any measures because of poverty. If a man has two head of cattle in Lady Frere it is a lot because there is no land. Take the position of land in Qamatapoort location . Can we accept a position where the people have overloaded the land with stock? The rest of the Transkei is quite rich. Western Pondoland is quite rich; they could do with more cattle. But the Government has to make provisions so that where the land cannot take any more cattle the Government must be able to cut down. You must be reasonable .

MR . H.H.T.N. BUBU: I second the amendment , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I stand up to oppose this foolish motion coming from a man whose area is not reclaimed and I think it should be left to the members from Nyanda and Fingoland regions , who know what the advantages of rehabilitation are. What would be the point in enforcing the regulations governing soil conservation? What would be the point in spending so much money in fencing and construction of dams , just so that there should no regulations goveming that?

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman , I am not sure whether the members on the Govemment side have read this Bill closely , where it is stated that and pigs. this Govemment will restrict poultry

MR . MDA: Isn't it rather stupid of you to say I should drop this because there is no rehabilitation in my area when you come from the same area? (Laughter)

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We did not THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no comparison between an hon . Minister and a back-bencher in this House. He is only concerned with his own administrative area. I want to point out very briefly that these regulations ( a) to ( t) need not be included in any one conservation scheme. These are just placed there so that people in each area can choose whatever will suit them. (Interjections ) But what that side of the House fights against is just the restoration and the delegation of powers to our chiefs who are heads of tribal authorities and regional authorities .

CHIEF MAJEKE : It says in this sub-section "...the prohibition , regulation or restriction of the keeping of any class or kind of livestock or of pigs or poultry ..." THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot interfere with your neighbours who might not want the kind of stock you do. CHIEF MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman, this is a very strange thing. Why can I not keep pigs in my own yard without the Government stepping in? Am I not a citizen of this country? I have never seen a thing like this anywhere except where people like you are resident. You cannot control my pigs and my hens.

MR. RAJUILI: Don't drag the chiefs into a bad thing like this . You are forcing them to support it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I mean , Sir, because although the Government has the power to do it, it gives the power to the tribal authorities to limit their stock if they so wish . It is only when the Govemment feels that these authorities are so

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon . member, we cannot waste time on this. This clause must be finished within twenty minutes. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman , if you read this amendment it states that the following words should be added at the end of clause 3: "Provided that any of the above provisions have been referred to the owners and/or occupiers for approval. " The lawmakers make the laws , but the people who put the law into operation do not apply it exactly as it was made.

irresponsible as to put into practice what my hon. friend desires . You must take the responsibility and realise that your cattle are your property .

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , there is quite a lot to speak about there concerning poultry , livestock, pigs and so on , but with the guillotine of two minutes I do not think in the history of man there has even been a thing such as we are seeing , and before I can present my amendment I shall be told that the two minutes is over. I do not even think that Nkrumah ever enforced anything as bad as this thing in his government . (Laughter) I move that clause 3, sub- clause ( 1) be deleted . MISS L

TWETWA

I second ,

say so.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are planning for the future when we make the laws.

CHIEF NDAMASE : Provision should be made to protect the people from those who are going to ill-treat the provisions of this law. The amendment is not against the clauses of the Bill . It merely requests that whenever a scheme is going to be introduced the people should be consulted . A person may not like people to advise , but they must be advised whenever any culling is to be done.

Mr. Chairman ,

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I reject the amendment .

THE CHIEF MINISTER I wish the hon . members would accept all these clauses and think of all the people in the Transkei who are languishing from starvation . The position in the Transkei is quite different in having these clauses from what is happening now in a most eroded area in the Glen Grey district where the Government has had no

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not going to cullfowls . That is an improvement. MR. O.O. MPONDO : I second,

alternative but to impose the scheme on an unwilling people. The land which the people occupy belongs to them and the Government has got to see that it is properly looked after. I cannot understand the mentality of the members on the other side when

-395-

Mr. Chaiman.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I will not take two minutes of your time, but the object of this amendment is not clear. Throughout this Bill, from clause 2 to where we are now consultation has been eminent and nothing will be done against the will of the people. Now the hon.

member still wants more consultation . I do not know whether he wants to include the "tikoloshe" from the hon. member over there. (Laughter) MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I ask a question? You are saying that amendments seek to over-emphasize consultation and you say nothing will be done unless the people agree to it . Supposing they do not agree to it? Will you answer that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Probably they will be left alone.

We want to know definitely.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I think that should be left to the Government. With those few words I oppose the amendment . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Government can do anything. Just leave it alone. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will now put the question , commencing with the amendment by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mnyila. The amendment was lost by 38 votes after a division as follows :-

MR . GUZANA : Don't let us have " probably” .

NOES

1

1

AYES

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Dali wonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zweli banzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpon do Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda. Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chem ane

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Rabort Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke SigcauChief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

-396-

to 53

The amendment by the hon . Mr. K.G. Nota was

lost by 38 votes to 50 after a division as follows:-

NOES

AYES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zweli banzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulo Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon . members , before adjourning for tea I would like to make this announcement . The hon. member, Mr. W. Lufefeni , disregarded the authority of the Chair and I felt obliged to name him and give him the shock of his life , but I will now allow him

to come back tomorrow and attend the session at 11 o'clock . I shall ask the hon . Leader of the Opposition to send word to him to come back. The amendment by the hon . Mr. L.T. Mazwi was lost by 33 votes to 36 after a division as follows: -

AYES

NOES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya

Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla -397-

Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1 J. Ntola 2 C.S. Mda

Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mi. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members of the House , this side of the House wishes to record its strongest exception to the division which has just been taken , by reason of the fact that the correct procedure has not been followed . The rules of procedure provide that the votes shall be announced and then thereafter a member may challenge the result of the vote. The hon . the Chief Minister called for a division before the votes were announced....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : I hope the Chairman will ignore all the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in that it has become conventional in this House for the Opposition to say "Division " even before we know the results of the voting . I am certain the Chairman will not take him seriously. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It has always been a common thing to call for a division before I make my announcement. The Govemment side called for a division just before I announced the result and so I had to call for a division . I would like to

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You have been doing that.

advise the House , hon . members, that any member is entitled to call for a division irrespective of the results announced.

MR . GUZANA: .... and the Chairman became partisan and ordered the division before he had announced the results.

MR. GUZANA: But after the results have been announced .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It has been done the whole day today.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It has made no difference. We shall proceed to the next amendment by the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota.

MR. GUZANA : If it has been done the whole day I am not going to connive at this and in the circumstances I wish to draw the attention of the House to that irregularity .

The amendment by the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota was lost by 36 votes to 42 after a division as follows :-

NOES Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima

AYES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta -398-

Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Tambekile Matanzima Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert t Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau

Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mt. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The amendment by the hon. Mr. O.O. Mpondo

NOES

was lost by 32 votes to 43 after a follows:-

division as

AYES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindy ebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle

Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince NdamaseMr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga

-399-

4

Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

House Resumed

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The people are looking forward to the hon . members to act as reasonable

The Deputy Chairman reported progress .

men and to see the money which they pay as taxpayers is used sparingly. As it is now it would appear that we have a collection of babies who do not know what they are about. As Minister of Finance I have got to see that the expenditure incurred on the Legislative Assembly does not exceed what was voted for it. Already we have gone beyond the normal period which was anticipated for this session. I am appealing to the Leader of the Opposition to please try and speak even to the most thickheaded people on his side who are not prone to reason, to consider that they have come here to represent the people and to be reasonable in their actions. Mr. Chairman , I do not want that the Government should apply methods which would appear unparliamentary because we could easily move that the rule which allows a division should be suspended.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , before you adjourn the House I just wish to announce that as from tomorrow the rules of the House will be suspended in so far as the times of the session are concerned . The House will sit from 10 a.m. You are aware that we are behind schedule and many of us are old enough to go back and look after their families. Acting in consultation with the hon . the Leader of the Opposition , he and I have felt that we should start business at 10 o'clock tomorrow. It was not necessary for us to consider the men on the other side. (Laughter)

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, on my own , without consultation , I will agree to the proposal. There never was any consultation , Mr. Chairman . (Laughter)

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Do that . We will use it too.

THE CHAIRMAN : We shall now adjoum until 11 a.m. tomorrow.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , this side of the House is as concemed with expenditure as the Government side is , but it must be considered that the Opposition has very restricted ways in which it can express itself, especially against an emptyheaded Government. (Laughter) You see, - if the Opposition is limited to twenty minutes to speak to a clause having ten, eleven or twelve sub- sections, the whole thing becomes fantastic and altogether undemocratic. I would understand if there was an adjustment whereby a long section would be given a longer time and a short section a shorter time to discuss. My gravamen of complaint is tha the Opposition is not given even time to make critical comment in moving amendments or in making observations on the provisions of the Bill. The only way in which the Opposition can make its

THE CHIEF MINISTER: With your indulgence , Sir, I move that the rule of the House be suspended so that the House shall sit at 10 o'clock . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall just give my ruling. We shall start at 11 a.m. tomorrow. The Assembly adjourned. TUESDAY , 21ST JUNE, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment , confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENTS . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , tomorrow we shall start at ten o'clock sharp. I will ask members to be in their seats in good time because I may call the roll . As we are far behind I shall ask members not to make unnecessary interjections. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the unnecessary expenditure being incurred by the Government as a result of these unnecessary divisions which are always being called by the

feelings known is to ask for a division just as the Government has asked for a division . I would exercise a wise discretion in allowing critical comment to be sufficiently extensive without necessarily resulting in waste of time . Then probably the divisions may well be reduced because we shall have had an opportunity to have a say on these clauses . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What do you gain by a division? MR . GUZANA: What we gain by a division is that we bring it forcibly to the notice of the Government , and the Minister in charge of the Bill in particular, that the Opposition has been stifled in speech and can only register its opposition in action . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Will you tell your teller to count accurately?

Opposition side. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : And the Government side. -400-

MR . GUZANA : I shall not impinge the inte-

peans? "

grity of the tellers of this House who are appointed by the Chairman . If I have to cast aspersions against them it means I will have no faith in the Chairman who appoints the tellers. I hope the Government side is going to take note of this.

REPLY: 1. (a) Five Bantu are at present being trained at the Bantu Investment Corporation's one training centre operating at the moment . This is about the maximum number that could be given satisfactory practical training at a time.

QUESTIONS.

QUESTION 116: Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the honourable the Chief Minister:"Could the honourable the Chief Minister give an explanation why the salary of the junior Xhosa Development clerks required by the Corporation as advertised, is more than the

Four more training centres are to be opened very soon to bring the total in the centres up to five, situated different areas in the Transkei. (b) Thirteen Bantu have completed satisfactory training and all of them are employed as managers of trading stations.

salaries of Principal Clerks employed by the Transkei Government, could the said difference be due to experience and educational qualification or could the cause be explained to the House?"

The Bantu Investment Corporation is not prepared to disclose their salaries as this is a personal matter of each individual concerned. One has been discharged for misappropriation of funds.

REPLY : The Xhosa Development Corporation is not a Public Service establishment and salary comparisons can therefore not be drawn . It should be mentioned that the advertisement calls for applications for posts of Training Officer and not for Clerks as stated by the questioner. It is also quite evident extensive experience that only applicants with in commerce or industry and in possession of a B.Sc. , B. Comm . or other related Degree or Diploma will be considered for such posts.

(c) Sixteen approved applica. ns are on the waiting list. A further forty-three applicants are still to be interviewed to determine their acceptability . 2. Training will be implemented to keep pace with the number of trading stations taken over. As it is not known how many trading stations will eventually be bought out no indication of the period requested can be given.

QUESTION 117: The honourable Mr. E, G . Sihele asked the Minister of the Interior:1. (a) How many Bantu are at present undergoing training to be managers of trading stations? (b) How many have been successful in this training and what placements or positions have they obtained or been appointed to on completion of their training? If there is no one why is it so? How much does each one of them earn? How many were discharged and what were the reasons therefor?

appli3. Trainees are generally drawn from cants who have, or who are at present gaining trading experience in privatelyowned trading stations. Where assistants in trading stations under the control of the B.I.C. show aptitude and are interested in specialised training, they are afforded every opportunity to enroll for a training course.

(c) How many applicants for training as managers are on the waiting list pending the completion of their course by the present trainees?

Remuneration of assistants employed at privately-owned trading stations is a private matter arranged between employer and employee.

2. On the basis of the present n umber of applicants for training as managers on the waiting list and the rate at which they qualify , how long will it take to produce an adequate corps of fully trained business men that will be in a position to take over either as managers or as buyers all the trading stations? 3. Are the applicants on the waiting list afforded an opportunity of gaining preliminary business experience by being employed in the various trading stations pending their admission to training as managers? If there is no such privilege why is it so? If they are afforded such an opportunity how are they remunerated?

4. (i ) The

B.I.C.

does

not

purchase any

trading stations but such purchases are all concluded by the South African the Bantu Bantu Trust after which Investment Corporation is requested to take over temporary control of the stations until such time as they can be sold to suitable Bantu purchasers. (ii) Of the 38 stations so

far controlled

by the Bantu Investment Corporation, 13 are at present managed by Bantu and they are all under consideration to purchase the stations as soon as they prove themselves. Firm recomfour very mendations in respect of Bantu managers are at satisfactory Bantu present considered .

4. Of the trading stations which have been by the Bantu I nvestment Corporation purchase (i) how many have been purchased by Bantu? (ii) How many are managed by Bantu who are employees of B.I.C.? (iii) How many are managed by Euro-

(iii) Twenty-five trading stations are managed by Europeans on a temporary basis.

-401-

As soon as a Bantu is available to take over any of these stations , the European manager is moved to a new station where his services may be required MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply given by the hon. the Minister of the Interior, one would like to know how long is the period of training for the position of manager. In view of the fact that the remuneration paid to these people in training and to those attached to trading stations is a private and personal matter, can we be given what is considered the minimum or the average salary paid to these people? Thirdly , in view of the fact that the land has been transferred to the Transkei Government out of the Trust , is the Trust still going to buy before it hands over to the B.I.C. to manage until an African buys , because one gets the impression that for the Trust to intervene now is to lengthen the process of a change of ownership from the original owner to the next owner? Furthermore, may I know what period expires before it can be decided whether or not a prospective manager will be capable of taking over a trading station by withholding a loan to make it possible to buy over a trading station . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : You will have noticed, Mr. Chairman , that this is a long question and I shall have to get the information from my files. However, the period of training for managership is six months . I shall request the hon. member to table the rest of his question.

MR. GUZANA: When shall I table it? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : If he is not prepared to table his question he can forget about it, or otherwise can come to my office.

QUESTION 118: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Justice:(1) " Whether the Department concerned is aware of the fact that the staff of the Magistrate , Port St. John's, has no accommodation and as such have to live without their families , and whether temporary quarters could not be considered meanwhile. If not, why not?

(2) (a) How is the scale of rent for Government quarters for Bantu Commissioner's staff determined? (b) Could he confirm that these houses are rented according to the salary earned and not according to size? "

REPLY: 1. The Department does not provide official accommodation .

whether the Minister will give reasons why the Department does not want to shoulder this responsibility? (c) Whether the Minister will explain to the House the position presently obtaining in the Transkei as regards : (i) the availability of water supply at residential quarters for African Police in the Transkei? (ii) the extent to which each member of the Force is entitled to get water free of rates or to which each member of the Force is liable for paying rates? (iii) the degree of uniformity in the application of the rules (if any ) relevant to water rates throughout the Transkei? "

REPLY : (a) Official quarters are not provided. Where necessary, however, temporary quarters are made available to members performing duties in rural areas. (b) No housing problems have been experienced yet. ( c) In view of the reply to (a) question falls away.

above , this

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . Minister , I should like to know in what circumstances is housing provided for the police generally . I am putting this question because I take into account what I have seen in this connection . For instance , recently I have seen houses provided for the members of the force in Lusikisiki. This is in respect of members of the force for the Republic the White members of the force. I have also seen in the district of Lusikisiki housing has been provided for members of the force at Mtontsana police station . There are quite a number of houses there and I cannot believe that those houses belong to the police station . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Who provided those houses? MR. BUBU: When you are in the Matatiele district you will find again that there are extensive housing schemes at Mariazel for the police there. I take it, Mr. Chairman , (I may be wrong) that such housing as I have mentioned in these three cases is for the police in the Republic and I take it that they are for the White members of the police force . My question is then, Mr. Chaiman : Why is it the departmental policy in our case that housing will not be provided for the Transkei police , when there is that provision in the Republic? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I wish to advise this House that the police station have not yet been handed over to the Transkei Goverment . We are negotiating for the transfer of some of the police stations to the Transkei Govemment and that may be done in a few month's time , I am glad to say .

2. Falls away. QUESTION 119: Mr. H.H.T.N.Bubu asked the Minister of Justice : (a) "Whether the Minister will give this House full information reflecting Departmental policy in relation to housing in respect of African members of the Tran skeian Police Force?

MR. GUZANA: If that is so will the Department consider putting up houses? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I was going to say then that the Department will then have a definite policy in that regard.

(b) If in accordance with policy housing in respect of African members of the Force is not the responsibility of the Department, -402-

Interior is aware of the fact that Republican telephone operators in Post Offices do not give fair treatment to the public particularly the non-whites.

QUESTION 120: Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu asked the Minister of Justice :(a) "Whether the Minister will furnish the House with statistics setting out the

2. If so , what measures are taken by the Goverment to remedy this state of affairs?"

relationship between the salary scales in respect of the African members of the Republican Police Force on one side and those of their Transkeian counterp arts on the other. (b) Whether the Minister further will comment on what disparities there may be between these rates of pay and while doing so explain to the House as to the grounds on which such disparities, if any, are justified by the Minister. (c) Whether steps are being taken or will shortly be taken by the Minister to remove any anomalies that may exist and may therefore be a cause of judicious dissatisfaction among the members of the Force in the Transkei ." THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, this House will recall that last year I gave a comparison of the scales of pay of the Transkei police force with the Republican police force , and that is obtainable on page 49 of the Hansard, where I revealed that our police were better paid than the Republican police. Subsequent to that the Republican Department revised the scales of the Republican police. I now give the reply as follows:

Chief Sergeant Senior Sergeant Sergeant Constable

780x60-1260 660x60-1140 576x42-660x60-1020 408x42-660x60-900

2. Falls away . MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . the Minister of the Interior, in view of the fact that this Department is not one amongst which the Transkei Govemment exercises control, is it possible to indicate what procedure may be followed.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: You said want that Department .

you don't

MR. GUZANA: That is what I am asking you about now, if only you would listen . What I want to know is what you would suggest as the procedure whenever there is a complaint in connection with a Department not handled by this Government. You may feel completely slighted if we do not recognise you, being small-minded as you are. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Is that part of the question now?

REPLY : (a) The salary scales are as follows:

Transkeian Police

REPLY: 1. My Department is not aware of any unfair treatment meted out by telephone operators to members of the public. It has not received any reports in that connection .

MR. GUZANA: Yes, it is, because in effect I want to know how we get to those officials. Do we ignore you, or do we put it to you and you put it to them?

South African Police. 960x60-1440 840x60-1200 780x60-1080 450x42-660x60960,

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman , to my mind the correct procedure would be foryou to refer the matter to us andthen this Govemment can negotiate with the Republican Department concerned on a higher level .

(b) The salary scales of the South African Police were recently improved. The salary scales of the Transkeian Police nevertheless still compare favourably with those of the South African Police.

CHIEF NDAMASE: Arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of the Interior, now that he is aware that there are complaints , will he be able to do something about it?

MR. BUBU: What do you think about the fact that a Chief Sergeant in the Transkei police starts where the Sergeant in the Republican police starts?

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I still have not received any complaints. This is merely a question.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Last year the Chief Sergeant in the Republican police started what was where our Sergeant started. That is

QUESTION 122: Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of the Interior: "In view of the urgent need for graduates in Engineering, Veterinary Science, Architecture, Agriculture and Forestry, and in view of the Government's assurance to negotiate with the Republican Government with a view to exploring ways and means of getting Transkeian students accommodation in any University for courses which are not provided for at Fort Hare,

happening last year before their salaries were increased. MR. BUBU : You say that compares favourably. What is favourably about it? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Just look at the top notches. I am not aware of any anomalies such as are referred to by the hon . member .

QUESTION 121 : Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of the Interior:1. "Whether or not the Department of the -403-

(a) how many students have been admitted to White and open Universities from 1963 to date for the courses?

(b) how many have been refused entry since 1963?

2

1

(c) how many have been issued with passports since 1963? (d) how many have been since 1963? ”

and co-operation with all the people involved in this. I am quite sure he will realise further that this amendment is quite reconcilable with all he has said, and that we are merely attempting to remove any doubt that may exist as to these amendments to the soil conservation scheme working smoothly. I trust that for once he will accept the amendment , especially in order to further the spirit of co-operation that has been sought by the hon. Chief Minister when he spoke this morning, a spirit which was also effectively reciprocated by the Leader of the Opposition .

refused passports

REPLY: (a), (b), (c) and (d) : My Department has no record of the number of Transkeian students that have been admitted to, or that have been refused admission to Universities other than Fort Hare . The same applies to the issue of passports as that is no function of my Department .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is that intimidation?

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon . the Minister of the Interior and in view of the fact that earlier during the session the hon. Minister indicated that applications usually receive either the blessing of his Department or the curse of his Department, is it not possible for his Department to have a record of those applications which have gone through relating to this question?

MR. BUBU: No, I am clearing the ground for you to understand. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I might point out that whenever the hon. Minister exercises the powers granted to him under this section, it is possible that he may reintroduce those matters on which objections were sustained at the initial consultation period . Now if, for instance, duringthe course of the application of a conservation scheme the Minister should find that an objection which he upheld initially should be ignored , and that the provision waived originally should be reintroduced, then we feel thatthe people so affected should be consulted to give their consent. I see the section merely provides for notice to be given and it would be more comforting to know....

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in reply the Minister of the Interior will consider the question. TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I move that the House sit in committee.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is consultation .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman.

MR. GUZANA: No , that is not the extent of the harmonious coconsultation which will ensure

Agreed to.

operation , because I may well serve a notice on you to quit premises and that is not consultation. What we want on this side is to know that when the Minister says he will give notice , it means that he will expect objections and receive and have consultation on those objections. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is right.

House in Committee The debate was resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, when we adjourned yesterday we had disposed of the amendment by the hon. Mr. O.O. Mpondo. We shall go on with the amend ment by the hon . Mr. C.S. Mda that clause 3 (j ) be amended by the deletion of all the words after "paddocks" .

MR. GUZANA : I think that is what the mover seeks because when we interpret "notice" in its strictest sense it does not expect that there will be representations from the person who is served with the notice. Thank you , Mr. Chairman , I second the amendment .

The amendment was lost by 36 votes to 49. The amendment by the hon. Mr. B.S. Rajuili was lost by 36 votes to 51 . Clause 3 put and agreed to by 51 votes to 36 .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the Opposition should be so cautious in adopting or understanding the principle of the Bill. Ample provision is made in the Act in the previous sections for consultation .

On Clause 4 MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this clause it is provided that the Minister should have a right of amending the conservation scheme from time to time . It is further provided that no amendment will be made until the Minister has given notice of intention to so amend. We do not quarrel with that , Mr. Chairman . All we seek to do through this amendment is to extend the proviso to this section in order to cover everybody concemed. The amendment is not in any way involved. The incompatible with the principle amendment is that we seek to add , after the word "Act", the words "and until those concerned have

MR. BUBU: We are dealing with this section

now.

duly been consulted and their co-operation secured” . The hon. Minister will realise that here we are merely emphasizing the importance of consultation

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In the whole application of the scheme that attitude will never be changed . There is no need to entrench this consultation . It is said here that the Minister will give notice . Why should he give notice at all if he is not going to listen to any representations made to him? And , in fact, this change is not an ordinary one. It is perhaps where a scheme has become obsolete or some slight change is necessary and it will be for the improvement and benefit of the scheme to make this change . With those few words , Mr. Chairman , I think this is superfluous .

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MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are standing, Sir, if you were to insert there that no such amendment shall take effect in respect of any owner or occupier of, or resident on the land or any owner of the notice thereof livestock affected thereby until "with second consultation " has been given under this Act · would not that meet our fears? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No. You want us to repeat like a merry-go-round this consultation . Once the people have accepted the scheme they have confidence in the Goverment to see it through. MR. GUZANA : Yes, but you know a child will refuse castor oil even when it is good for it. Now you are preparing an amendment to this scheme because of practical difficulties or because it has become obsolete. Now the question is: Will you allow them to consult with you if your amendment brings about a drastic change in the previous scheme? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Certainly, and there is no need to include this consultation . It is now stinking in my nostrils.

On Clause 5 MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it will be remembered that when the hon. Minister presented his Bill I asked for an explanation in regard to sub- section (xxviii) of clause 1 and when he replied he made me understand that the three terms mean one and the same thing. Perhaps he may show the shade of meaning that is more forceful in this paragraph and that would made me feel this word should not be replaced . The trouble is that English words have different shades of meaning and people may not understand the particular shade of meaning that has been used. To give an example, we may say you have the word "segregation" or "parallel development" which we are told mean the same thing. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are talking nonsense. That has nothing to do with agriculture.

MR. RAJUILI: I am giving an example of the shades of meaning of words. Peop le understand "apartheid" more than " Bantustan" , and so on. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you talking about? Come back to the Bill. MR. RAJUILI: So here people understand "rehabilitation " but they do not understand " soil conservation" and " reclamation " .

MR. GUZANA: Yes, and then you will say there is no need to consult the people. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No , the whole Bill is full of it and it will be for the good of the scheme to be able to make these amendments.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What is the home language of the people?

MR. GUZANA : Now if the Minister feels the amendment will be detrimental to the scheme, he goes back and tells the people....

MR. RAJUILI: I am speaking the language used in the Bill. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No , the people are not concerned with that.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , that is consultation. It is not necessary to put it in the Act. (Interjections)

MR. RAJUILI : So if the hon . Minister would explain further, we might see eye to eye. My amendment is that the word "reclamation " be substituted by "rehabilitation" , but before moving I would like some further explanation from the hon. Minister.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: How can the Government defeat its own scheme? THE CHIEF MINISTER: None of you have gone into the legal aspects of the matter. You are trying to destroy the scheme.

MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the explanation by a certain magistrate in the Transkei was that rehabilitation meant to rehabilitate the land with the consent of the people and reclamation that the Government took the initiative.

MR. GUZANA: That is a misconstruction . Just accept the amendment. It will not do any harm.

We want him to explain that.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, just look at the word "time" in the first line. We can put in there " after consultation with any tribal authority concemed" so that it will read "The Minister may from time to time, after consultation with any tribal authority concemed..."

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : With your indulgence, Sir, I beg that the thre e manedments should be moved together so that I may reply at the same time. MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , shall I go on then as requested?

MR. GUZANA: Yes, you are becoming more liberal about these things now. We will not divide on this.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Yes.

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in the light of this act of reasonable co-operation , indicating that the Goverment is now retuming to its senses (Laughter) I am prepared to withdraw my amendment .

MR. ZIBI : It is true, Mr. Chairman , that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely . I refer to the hon . Minister who is piloting this Bill. He is so obsessed with power that he wants to stretch his area of control even to privately owned land.

MR. GUZANA: As seconder, Mr. Chairman, in view of the hon . Minister's amendment I consent to withdraw. Clause 4,

as amended, put and

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Soil Conservation Act in the Republic provides for this.

agreed to.

MR. ZIBI: He is a mere cipher of the Department

-405-

El

he claims to be in charge of. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Please discuss your amendment and never mind the Minister. MR. ZIBI : The amendment seeks to delete the whole clause 5. We were told that the spirit and intention of this Bill was that rehabilitation should be voluntary.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : No Govemment will allow its land to be destroyed. MR. ZIBI : ... but this section is completely against that spirit and we therefore seek that this portion of the Bill should be withdrawn because it seeks to defeat the intention of the Bill. It makes it compulsory for the privately owned lands to be compulsorily rehabilitated .

but the Government will co-operate with the farmers concerned and do everything it can , and I hope the Minister will tum a deaf ear and refuse this amendment. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I do not think I need explain any further on this. It has been fully explained by the hon. the Chief Minister, but with regard to the amendment by the Rev. Rajuili - I wonder what is in his mind, because this Act is going to operate among people who do not know anything about reclamation or soil conservation or anything else.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, you must ask the hon. member to withdraw the nonsense he said. I drew your attention to it and you were about to ask him to withdraw . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What did the hon. member say?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is done in the Republic if the land is being ruined. (Interjections)

MR. RAJUILI : He called me "Sajuili " .

MR. ZIBI : It goes further and asks the private owner to pay the expenses in respect of reclamation of his own land. As one speaker said, if a child needs castor oil you have to convince that child that the castor oil is good for it.

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

I do

not think

there is anything to withdraw.

MR. RAJUILI : There is , Mr. Chairman . I object to that.

is no

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You cannot convince a child. You have to give it to him.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : No, there need to withdraw. Carry on .

MR. ZIBI : My interpretation is merely that the hon . Minister feels that as long as the other section , the community section is all right, it does not matter what happens to the individual. (Interjections) Where there are only one or two people he feels he can exercise his power. (Interjections)

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I am not that. I am standing on a point of order... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I did not hear what he said. MR. RAJUILI : But I did and I am drawing your attention to it. (Interjections)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. The stenographer cannot hear.

MR. ZIBI : If a man has sufficient reason to buy land he will aslo realise that he must see to the fertility of his land and so there is no need for the Government to step in. (Interjections) It is a pity that we have a set of fools who do not even know what we are talking about. I am telling you about the reclamation of land and you do not even know about the reclamation of land . (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Further, Mr. Chairman, it is for the good of the country that the people be consulted because it may entail a lot of expenditure as far as those owners are concerned . MR. O.O. MPONDO : I second the amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: With regard to the amendment , the hon . member seeks to exclude owners of private land from the provisions of this Act . I may point out that all private land belongs to the Govemment and the Government must see that the land is not ruined , and if people are going to plough in the wrong way and allow the land to be washed away, the Government must step in . This is included in the Soil Conservation Act of the Republic as well. I hope the hon . Minister will not accept this amendment . I speak as a farmer and my land

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please sit down now. Carry on . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . When he says that we should listen to the individual , what kind of farmer would he be who would not like to be assisted by the Government? Does he deserve to own a farm? I cannot imagine such a person . Here the Government is only given power where it sees that the land is of such a nature that it is going to ruin, just as we did with the Paramount Chief's farm at Qamata, and we are making a fine place of it now. The Minister will only act where he sees with his good sense that this farm is being criminally neglected, so with those few words I reject the amendment.

MR . RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I have not moved my amendment. I asked for an explanation and I said I would consider what to do in the light of the explanation . Now he has stretched himself over all sorts of things but he has not told us what we want to know. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has explained it

all. MR. RAJUILI : No, he did not. He started calling me all sorts of names and I would like an explanation from the Minister.

has been ruined . If I had not stepped in , with all the brains I have , my children and grandchildren would have had nothing. I have no doubt that nothing will be enforced so far as the farmers are concerned ,

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Are you prepared to reply, hon . Minister?

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THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No , except to say that this word is not in the Bill. Section 5 refers throughout to reclaiming or conserving. That is understood - it is either to reclaim or to conserve. (Interjections)

ment have failed to say why " rehabilitation" should not be substituted and so the amendment stands.

MR . BUBU: Give us the distinction between "reclaim" and "conserve".

The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi was lost by 37 votes to 56,

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , why should I do that? It is the same thing. I am concerned with reclamation and conservation and anything that will hold the soil back and be of use to the people.

The amendment was lost by 37 votes to 55.

Clause 5 of the Bill put and agreed to by 52 votes to 36 . The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION .

MR. GUZANA: Does. rehabilitation not involve the movement of residents? Let us ask you that way . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes , it might. MR. GUZANA: And reclamation means improving soil which has deteriorated , and conservation is saving the soil from getting bad? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes , it might also imply moving people , but I do not think we should waste so much time on this . MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman I am afraid the hon. Minister has hopelessly failed to answer a simple question , so I am not prepared to withdraw this amendment. If he had made an attempt to reply I would have withdrawn . I wish somebody would assist him. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , section 5 throughout mentions . reclaiming or conserving, consequently the word "rehabilitation " would be out of place and what we call in law a non sequitur. The word " conservation" takes the place of " rehabilitation" , so that although the hon. member tried to show the difference between the two words they are just one and the same thing, like a donkey and an ass. (Laughter)

MR . RAJUILI : I think the last speaker has helped the situation here except that I had thought he would bring in some difference, because my difficulty was that the hon . Minister of Agriculture did not understand altogether. I thought that word would have more force and that there would be no I need for it to be substituted , but the hon. the Minister of justice has made it clear that there is need for this word to be substituted and so , while I thank him for his explanation, I think the amendment is still justified. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, if the things are the same why remove the one for another which is the same? Is there any need to substitute a donkey for an ass?

MR. RAJUILI : There is a big strength and stature.

difference in

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : What is your decision now?

MR. RAJUILI : I think we are going to be met here.

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate of the committee stage of the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill was resumed. On Clause 6 MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, there is a matter relating to financial responsibility for work done on land where the hon. Minister may have to insist that certain work be done on land, as might well be the case where , as he said, the land is becoming criminally damaged. I think in situations like that the Government ought to bear the financial responsibility . THE CHIEF MINISTER : We will take note of your remarks.

MR. GUZANA: However I notice that in section 6 (1 ) the financial implications might well mean that the owner is required to pay substantially , and in sub- section (2) the owner may have to pay , and I am just wondering what the position would be where the owner is a man of straw. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this is just a clause that enables the Government to do something for a private farmer. In fact, it is to the advantage of the farmers because in the past the Government was not in a position to do anything for the African farmers . I do not think the Government would require that the owner of a farm should be burdened financially when he is not in a position to do so . In any event I want to assure the hon. members across the floor that now that they have got their own Government which is going to assist the farmers, everything will be dealt with according to the merits of each case. For example , the Republican Government was so generous as to reclaim the Paramount Chief's farm in Eastern Pondoland without any cost to the Paramount Chief himself. That applies too to the Qamatapoort farm which is my own farm, and also the farm belonging to Chief Mgudlwa of the amaJuba in the Engcobo district . What the Government does is to see that the farms are reclaimed , but you do not expect the Government every time to pay for everything. When a farmer comes forward and asks that his farm be reclaimed the Government can say that he must pay half, or even advance money to the farmer. In any event, for the first time in the history of the Transkei people the farmers are going to get assistance from the Government.

Clause 6 put and agreed to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Make your decision.

On Clause 7 MR. RAJUILI : The decision is that the Govern-

-407-

MR . J.M. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on behalf of the hon . Mr. L.T. Mazwi , who asked me before we adjoumed to withdraw his amendment, I now hereby do so.

E

1

Agreed. MR . L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman , to confirm what has been said by the hon. member, I withdraw the amendment.

Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I speak to the amendment in the name of the hon . Mr. H.H. Zibi who has gone to the doctor? He has been so depressed by the utterances of the Goverment side that he has had to go to the doctor. (Laughter) MR. L.T. MAZWI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I had two amendments on this section , one concerning sub-section 7 (a) ....

amount of R500 at five per cent interest, and for the next two or three years there is great drought, to the extent that the farm is non-productive and in fact it is run at a loss . For those three years the total interest chargeable is R75 . If this is capitalized it means now that for the following year the interest will be worked on R575 , which might mean some hardship on the owner of the farm . Now we must realise that we are dealing with a person who is engaging in an occupation which is controlled by circumstances which are almost capricious. Will the hon . Minister consider this and have it deleted, because this provision is really punitive , rather than providing for the recovery of the debt due to the Government? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the terms used by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would, of course, suit a court of law. I ask the mover to keep in mind that the Government is intent on helping rather than oppressing and, as you see, this pa ragraph (d) comes right at the end of the conditions which the Minister may impose. MR. GUZANA: Of course, the sting is usually at the tail end.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We have passed that now. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The position was that he delegated his powers on the first amendment to the hon . member for Gcalekaland who successfully discharged the duty entrusted to him, and when the hon . member for Fingoland came in he took on the remaining amendment and he withdrew it , and it was accepted and passed by this House. If he had anything to say he should have said it when the whole clause was being put , but he did not say it.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes , that's right; but what I want to make quite clear is that the Govemment has in mind helping the farmer. It will never oppress . The clause says that the Minister may do so, which means that the Government will consider all the circumstances - drought and the plague - it will consider everything. MR . GUZANA : Are you suggesting that subsection (d) is in effect a nullity in the sense that it will not be used punitively, although its very provision is punitive.

11 THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We are dealing with clause 8 now . Carry on , hon. member.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You say so, but just listen. The clause says that the Government may, and it may even assist the farmer. It allows for extension of time and it may even write off that interest .

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I will speak to this amendment standing in the name of the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi . Sir, (d) seems to be imposing rather undue hardship on the man who is owing the Government, not a private individual, money . I would say that the Government can afford to be indulgent to the extent that it loses no interest if overdue interest is not capitalized. As it is now, sub-section

MR. GUZANA: But you have not written that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But we have written "may" do these things .

(d) introduces the principle of compound interest, rather placing the Govemment in a very bad light as an avaricious financier who wants to make the most of money lent out to assist the people conserve the Government's own soil. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTUR. Do you concede now that your farm is still Gov ⚫ment property?

MR. GUZANA: You might as well have written "may write off the interest" . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We cannot encourage people not to pay their debts . If we said that the farmer need not consider interest because the Government may write it off, what psychology is that?

MR. GUZANA: My farm is part of the land.

MR . GUZANA : Yes , but in other words you could have added a sub-section (e) " may write off the interest" .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You denied that the other day .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , that would make the farmer unthrifty. You cannot tell him that he may not have to pay the interest.

MR . GUZANA: What did I say? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You said the Government had no concern for the land. MR. GUZANA: Is that what was in your mind? I do not speak your thoughts remember that . Suppose a man is indebted to the Government in the

MR . GUZANA: He would not know. It is just a possibility . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Why should you bind the Government to do a thing like that?

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-

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think we should have a seconder to this amendment first.

MR . GUZANA: Why should the Government consider a punitive provision when it is keen itself to get the co-operation of the farmer? You want to capitalize the interest....

THE

MINISTER

OF

AGRICULTURE:

MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: I second, Mr. Chairman. Clauses 9 and 10 put and agreed to.

Yes,

instead of seizing the property, we do that . On Clause 11 MR. GUZANA: But why introduce compound interest? Why not simple interest?

MR. W.M. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in this connection I wish to move an amendment that the words " after consultation with the occupiers of the land" be inserted between the words "may" and " by" in sub-clause 11 (b). This amendment refers to a situation where the people have accepted rehabilitation and they are satisfied that reclamation will be concerned with this particular area. Here the Minister is given the right to make several regulations affecting this area which have not been referred to the people, and I take this from the following: "....even though no specific provision has or is deemed to have been made in respect of those matters in the soil conservation scheme." After the place has been fenced in the Minister can make several regulations affecting that particular area without reference to the people.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But the interest is in arrear. MR . GUZANA: But the man is still liable for the capital later on , so that the interest is compounded with the capital and the next interest is worked on the first interest and the capital. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We shall consider each case on its merits. We cannot generalise on this. MR. GUZANA: I am not generalising. This is a particular provision. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But why are you concerned when we can even do the work gratis after considering all the circumstances?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? MR. MADIKIZELA: I am taking this from the clause itself. Here it is. It is necessary that the people should be consulted because all these things will be new to them at the time. (Interjections) It has been mentioned that he will make regulations in connection with a certain thing and if there are such matters they should have appeared here. These regulations are made because then there will be new tax regulations and it will be necessary for them to fence in their areas and they will have to sow their land according to the specific methods laid down by the Minister. He may say to them: You must sow tea here, cotton there and phormium tenax over there; and several other things that will not be useful to the people where they were accustomed to sowing mealies. Then he will tell them to sow castor oil and to reduce their stock. (Laughter)

MR . GUZANA: I am concerned beca use you may well take up a certain attitude towards a farmer... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Who is doing his work well? MR . GUZANA: I do not know why you should do that, but the Minister may well take up an attitude towards a farmer and, deriving from that attitude , he may impose the harshest provision of the law. This is not helping the farmer to rehabilitate himself financially, if the interest is compounded. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What do you suggest? MR . GUZANA: That the interest should not be capitalized but kept separate from the capital, and no interest charged on the capital. According to this provision you charge interest on the capital and then you charge interest on the interest and so on , and it just grows bigger and bigger and bigger.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you talking about? MR. MADIKIZELA: All the things in clause 2 (4) from (a) to (t) which the Minister may do . We will have no pigs , no poultry, bulls must be castrated.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, I have got your point and I am considering it very seriously. THE drawing?

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Are you

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Sit down . You are talking nonsense .

with-

MR. MADIKIZELA: It now becomes quite clear that backhand methods are being improvised to get the people to agree with their objectives , but there are more important things. In this next sentence it says people should be punished . (Laughter) In the Transkei it will be a crime... ( Interjections )

MR. GUZANA: No , the Minister is having it in mind at the present moment . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Perhaps you could go on with the next amendment while we are consulting with the experts .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. member must keep to the point. He does not know what he is talking about.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We do not have any other amendment of this clause. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I suggest that we skip Clause 8 whilst it is under consideration and go on with the rest of the Bill. We will come back to this when he is ready.

MR . MADIKIZELA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . This is something I want the hon. Minister to take notice of. It is stated that the Minister may make -409-

all these regulations referred to in sub- clause 2 (4) (a) to (t). If he wants to refer to those sections they are all these things I am mentioning and my request is that the words "after consultation with the occupiers of the land" be inserted here. If there is any sincerity in this connection , the Minister will not refuse to include this.

lous exaggerations. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this clause as it stands and I am sure the hon. Minister will not allow any alteration thereof unless you want no government in the country at all and you, the Opposition , the foolish Opposition , want to be the Government .

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: I second the amendment.

ter)

MR. GUZANA: We could do without you . (Laugh-

曰: B

-

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I feel I must ask for three minutes and ask the hon. Minister to be calm and collected in considering these amendments.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I regret that the hon . members across the floor are so ignorant of legislation that they want the Government of the country to be subject to the people. Nowhere in all the statutes which we anticipate in this Bill will be abrogated or repealed has such a suggestion as has been made by the hon. member been found. He is making a ridiculous suggestion that every time the Government must be subject to the people, and the people must tell the Govemment to do this whilst the land belongs tothe Government. The Government has to see that the land is secured for future generations. (Interjections) We are not prepared to be as stupid as some of the hon. members across the floor are. All the laws which have applied in regard to soil conservation have never had this. They never had it right through the country. The Soil Conservation Act has not got it at all . We have already got this provision for consultation in the Bill, but every time you want us to put in this consultation . What kind of legislation is that? And what has the Government to do for the country and the future generations? I submit that the hon. members across the floor want that the people should be the Government.

5

MR. GUZANA: That is democracy . The people govem .

I 1

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Government is there as the trustee.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Stupid as they are? MR. BUBU: He claims, for instance, that we are trying to rob the Goverment of the powers that it normally ought to posses as a Govemment, and he seems to be offended at the fact that we are laying emphasis on consultation with the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have provided for that. (Interjections)

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN:

Order, please.

MR. BUBU : He seems to feel that our attitude towards the Goverment is different from any Opposition towards any Government. THE

CHIEF MINISTER :

That is quite true.

You are obstructing because you are traders and you have all the money. You don t want other people to have money .

MR. BUBU: I want to draw his attention to an abnormality of this Government as compared with some other Governments. The other Govemment, which is the Republican Government, of this country is elected in the normal way in which Goverments are elected. (Interjections ) It is elected by the direct representatives of the people people who have assessed and canvassed the wishes of the people ...

MR. GUZANA: That's right.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: And the land belongs to the people..

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You will never have that in the Transkei.

MR. GUZANA: That's right and the trustee has to.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: .... and no man can do anything which is against the interests of the people. Every time the Government will consult the people, at every step it takes . Fortunately you have today your own Government of your own colour and you want things which have never been done before to be done by this Government. It is ridiculous to say that the Minister cannot use his discretion at times and put a scheme to the people and say: This is the scheme now . What you say is that the people must draw up the regulations ; they must give the orders.

• .whereas on the other hand MR. BUBU: • this Govemment has not been elected by the direct representatives of the people.

MR. GUZANA: No, who said that?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was elected. MR . BUBU: Therein arises the need for emphasizing consultation . THE

CHIEF MINISTER :

We have provided for

it. MR . BUBU: There is no abnormality in that. It is in full consistency with the circumatances in which this Government was appointed.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: They must give directions ; they must impose prohibitions - on whom? On the Government. If you do not know a thing you must just leave the people who know to do it . We as a Government have spent many months drawing up this legislation which we believe is in the

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to accept the amendment. Enough has been said already.

interests of the people and you purport to be all advocates on the other side, and you make ridicu-410-

The amendment was put and lost by 38 votes to 57 after a division as follows : -

NOES.

AYES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilinggwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahla Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalin gozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgxawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimbubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi

Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi

Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlawana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota. 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Prederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Maj eoa Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Thief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola. 2. C.S. Mda. Clause 11 put and agreed to by 52 votes to 34 after a division as follows : -

AYES.

NOES. Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngan gomhlaba Mtirara Acting Chief X. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu

Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chiet Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dzintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla

Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya -411-

Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur MlungisiMfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango

Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hom abrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr: Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyan gilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K. G. Nota. 2. Z. Chemane

Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau

Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola. 2. C.S. Mda.

On Clause 8 (Resumed)

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to announce that I am ready now with clause 8. I am not really convinced that this is any danger to anyone because if it were adopted the idea is to give the Minister discretionary powers, in which case he would even wipe out the interest. But the man who can pay and who does not pay even though he can pay will be induced to pay so that he will not be charged compound interest, but in the interests of peace on earth and goodwill towards men, and in recognition of the stability and integrity of the Leader of theOpposition among his people, I agree to delete sub- section (d). Clause 8 as amended put and agreed to.

and bulldozers. Now perhaps a bank may be washed away by floodwater and if it is necessary for such a person to reconstruct the washaway when he has no money, how does the Govemment propose to deal with that? These contour banks are built in such a way that they may even go through the land belonging to the Trust, and in cases of people who are holding certificates of occupation , if the holder of the certificate dies then the land reverts to commonage. Now according to the new Bill the land belongs to the Government. If a contour bank has been washed away, who is going to put that right if the Govemment is not mentioned in this Clause? Further, in 1964/1965 according to the financial statement this Govemment was allotted R55,000 and they used only R17,000 of it. The balance was returned to the Republic. Now they come forward with a suggestion that when the land is being rehabilitated or reclaimed the responsibility must rest on the people holding the land .

On Clause 12 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think this clause is aimed particularly at holders of certificates of occupation . Now the land occupied by those people belongs to the Govemment. In the reclamation of the soil there are training banks which are made by the use of graders

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : You break the fences. CHIEF NDAMASE : Why did you leave that money? Could you please make it clear?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I did not expect any comment on this seeing that there is not even an amendment to signify that there is something to be said about it. Now it is characteristic of our African people to be given something. Ask and ye shall receive. They believe in the Bible, which they are supposed to read. But now we have given you so much in soil reclamation and have spent thousands and thousands of rand on your one administrative area. The cost is no consideration and the first thing that we should expect you to do is to maintain the works that we have done there, instead of folding your hands and expecting the Goverment to join the fences you have broken. As I travel round I see gates hanging on one hinge and sometimes they fall to the ground and no one thinks of removing this gate which the cattle leap over. Even the training banks · no repair is required except to scoop the mud out. (Interjections)

for you and we plant the trees for you. We, fence the plot for you, but nobody thinks of making a fire-belt. The grass grows very high and with matches they bum it to nothing. You see one on the Sibangweni land. If you had only made a fire- belt there that plantation would have been well protected. We want you to have the sense of possession and that is my explanation to the hon. member on this clause. CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. Minister has not replied to my question. There is no fencing in the Bizana area so the hon. Minister is not used to fencing.. (Interjections ) This sometimes constitutes a major repair. THE MINISTER OF AGRI CULTURE : If the hon. chief has a widow in his location who has this hardship, that matter can be properly handled by the tribal authority upon whom we have put authority to see to the widows.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Lastly, I will mention one more thing. We establish woodlots

Clause 12 put and agreed to by 52 votes to 33 after a division as follows : -

NOES.

AYES.

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngan gomhl aba Mtirara Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Paramount Chief Victor Poto .

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Dali wonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mny an go

Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata

Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi

Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr.

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Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Gordon Dana Cromwell Diko Mkatali Walter Madikizela Sizakele Caledon Mda Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota. 2. Z. Chemane.

Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers 1. J. Ntola. 2. C.S. Mda.

On Clause 13 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I withdraw my amendment in regard to this clause. MR. W. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , reference 31 is made here to the taking away of land from the person who already owns that land. It is mentioned 222 that the Government may want to preserve that land perhaps for game, or possibly they want the land reclaimed or it may be that the Govemment wants the land to be overgrown with grass or for water purposes. If we can be assured that the Government will take the land only for good purposes, there is a provision that the Government will give land equal to that taken away. I am not opposed to that. According to this sub-section (2) for compensation the Govemment can give the owner land for land or compensate him in cash. I have noted that this is contained in (c) and I shall refer only to (b) and (c). It is said that the Goverment will compensate for land , but we cannot understand what the Government intends by this. The Government has plantation land in its hands but it is mentioned here that the Government may not have land to pay back for land it has taken. The Govemment can take land from people who already have land , but on the other hand there are many people who have no land and who require land, but cannot get it anywhere. The Government now , according to this , will take land from a person who already has it and preserve that for game. We would like to know who is more important - humanbeings or game? Here the Government talks about fish and the land is expropriated to make room for fish . (Laughter) We are doubtful now because it is said that land may be taken but it is doubtful whether any land will be given in return . I therefore move that sub-sections (4) (b) and (c ) of clause 12 be deleted. There is no reason why they are inserted here. What should be done is that land should be given for land.

ment all the time when the Goverment is working in the interests of the people. If anything is done for the good of the public, why should an individual refuse that he should hand over his land for the good of the people? MR. B.S. RAJUILI : That is done in Russia. You are communistic. THE CHIEF MINISTER: More land was given so that the people in St. Mark's and Xalanga locations should benefit. It was not a matter of concession. Everybody who falls under an irrigation scheme cannot obstruct the Goverment in carrying out that scheme. (Interjections) I was given land but that land was not sufficient to compensate me for the land that I gave. (Interjections)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, order. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think the Opposition is just not prepared to reason. Trying to reason with them is waste of time. What they are objecting to is what is the law in the Republic of South Africa and what has been the law in so far as the Transkei is concerned in the past. Why didn't you object to this law when it was passed before?

OPPOSITION MEMBER :

We were not there.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The law was there all the time but just because these Ministers have taken over and the chiefs have taken over their land you start objecting. You want to obstruct the administration . That is all . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand to advise the House that I am not prepared to accept the amendment.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it is not just right justice that in as much as you take away land, so must you give land.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : I second , Mr. Chair-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is what we usually

man.

do.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think it is necessary for the hon. Minister to reply to this because this is just a child's play as far as I am concerned . If my land could be expropriated by the Republican Government for a public cause, as it has been , as my own farm was expropriated and I gladly gave it away because it was going to serve a good cause for the people....

MR. GUZANA: The Government should not take away ten acres of land from an individual unless it is in a position to give him ten acres of land . There is provision here for compensation by way of land smaller than the land expropriated.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not necessarily. MR . GUZANA: (I do not say it is necessarily so. ) .... plus financial compensation for whatever the Government is not able to give him by way of land. A man may have had a certain piece of land out of which he was able to draw maintenance for his family adequately . If the size of the land is reduced it means in effect that the amount he is able

OPPOSITION MEMBER : In return for some more land.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not necessarily. The land given to me was less than the land which I gave to the Government, but I was given some money for compensation for the balance. You people in the first place have not been in a position to study other acts that apply in the Republic . You have come here just as mere agitators to put blame on the Govem-

to reap from the land is correspondingly reduced. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And if the land is not available?

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MR. GUZANA: The financial compensation that he gets cannot be invested in any land because the Govemment has no land, and there is a situation where the Government may well find that it has no alternative land and may give compensation by way of money . THE CHIEF MINISTER: There was no such compensation in the past. MR. GUZANA: Now this provision might well result in people who own land being rendered landless , and that is a great hardship on people who still depend on agricultural produce both for their sustenance and also to meet their financial commitments relating to their children and the State. In my view a piece of land is much more valuable than a lot of money which can be used up over a short period, whilst the land can be used for longer and can be inherited, etc. THE CHIEF MINISTER : And if there is no land available? MR . GUZANA: If there is no land then the land belonging to the owner can be used by the Government for demonstration without expropriation so that the owner of the land can derive the produce from the land. THE MINISTER OF land are you referring to?

AGRICULTURE : Which

farming since I was eight years old. Go to the Registrar of Deeds in King William's Town and you will find it there. My idea is that where there is land and the Government has no alternative land, it must not take away the land from the owner, es. pecially where the land can be used by the Govemment without submerging it, as the hon. the Chief Minister wishes to do. The Goverment conducts experiments on the land and the benefit of the crops that are grown on this land goes to the owner, rather than that the owner should not have any land at all or be given just money and be without land for the rest of his life. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The Leader of the Opposition is a great dramatist, Mr. Chairman. (Laughter) He can paint a picture which in the eyes of other people would be a happy one, and make it a very sad picture. Now he forgets the idea that the principal aim of this clause is to expropriate land that is almost valueless . MR . GUZANA: Let me explain, please. In Israel the land is just sand and yet they can use it. So no land can be said to be valueless . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well, they have no Opposition such as you. (Laughter) Now let me explain • that is the principal aim of this clause and there is no algebraic equation in land. It is very fair of the Government to expropriate the land and give the man a better land....

MR. GUZANA: The land you are referring to in this section . Don't you know the Bill? You see, expropriation takes the land away from the owner... THE CHIEF MINISTER: How are you going to use land when it is under water? MR. GUZANA: Are you going to inundate the land? THE CHIEF MINISTER : In an irrigation scheme, if the land is under water how are you going to use it? MR. GUZANA: If you have to place agricultural allotments under water then you must have altemative land to give to those people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Suppose you haven't got it? MR. GUZANA: How are you going to construct an irrigation scheme without any land to irrigate? (Laughter) You have to construct irrigation schemes where there is an arid area... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That's right and the land that is left is less than the land that is under water.

MR. GUZANA: I accept that.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: ....and to give him compensation by way of giving him a piece of land that is better than the one which is expropriated. In addition if the Minister thinks that he has not given the man sufficient compensation he gives him monetary compensation. MR. GUZANA: Fair enough. Just get to the position where you have taken away the land and you cannot give him even a smaller one than the one you have taken away.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is an exaggera tion. MR. GUZANA: It is here - "if there is , in the opinion of the Minister, no Government land available , be offered such compensation in money as the Minister shall assess" . In other words , a situation may arise when the Goverment is not able to give him alterative land and just gives money.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just listen. You must understand that we must cut our agreement to the availability of the land and a soil conservation area is an administrative unit, as distinct from the next administrative area. In fact

MR. GUZANA: Now, that would be downright stupid to put forty morgen of land under water to irrigate twenty morgen of land. What utter nonsense ! (Laughter)

we have never had the experience you paint where all the people do not get residential sites.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You don't know what you are talking about.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now you cannot expect the Government to go to Matatiele to fix up a man who is in Mqanduli simply because the Government has land in Matatiele. The Govemment will do its best to meet the demands of the people of Mqanduli with land in Mqanduli district.

MR . GUZANA: You don't know. You know nothing about farming. You only knew farming when you were given one in the late 1940s. I have been

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MR. GUZANA: No , we are speaking about land.

MR. GUZANA: It is land that we want money for land.

not

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is always an alternative in such transac tions , and there is provision later in this Bill where a man, if he is not satisfied (if you incite him to be dissatisfied) goes to an administrative court... MR. GUZANA: We are not interested in inciting people, but what happens if the man is left without land himself? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We do it for the benefit of the public. I am sorry I cannot go much further because the hon. member does not want to leam .

The amendment by the hon . Mr. W. Madikizela was put and lost by 31 votes to 46 . MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , there is another matter on which I would like to speak before this clause is put. In sub-section (5) this question of cancellation of title deeds do you realise to what extent you are encroaching on the rights of the individual? You see, when registration is cancelled in respect of expropriated land and in a case where the owner has not had notice , despite the attempt of the Minister to serve such notice of expropriation, does the Minister contemplate a case where, after cancellation of title deed , he may give land to which the original owner of the expropriat ed land will have title deed? He was absent at the time

E

you served notice , the period of three months expired and you had to have cancellation of the regis tration of the title deeds. I am not speaking to an amendment. I merely want an explanation . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , he will get it.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will consult my experts . I do not want to hurry things. MR. GUZANA: I suggest we carry on and leave this clause in abeyance until we get a reply.

us how to look after these animals. These pedigreed bulls are delicate animals and they require to be attended to. Where they come from they are looked after in a particular way and , apart from that, they are rather expensive animals. Members of Parliament may perhaps be able to buy these pedigreed bulls , but the ordinary residents may not be in a position to buy them. Those who are able to buy pedigree bulls have ways and means whereby they keep them away from the herds of other people . What I am specially interested in is that the number of agricultural demonstrators can be increased so that they can instruct us as to how to keep these animals , and that is why I wish this particular section to be deleted . I do not know whether the Govemment intends to supply pedigree bulls free of charge, because if you wish people to throw away things then you must have something to replace what you wish them to throw away. On that account we think our stock will be very much reduced if we are forced to buy pedigree animals when we have not the means and have no one to instruct us as to how to rear them. We want milk and we need the animals to pay for our children. We need meat and it is for those reasons that I feel this section should be deleted. I read in one paper that a person who had stolen a ram had to pay a fine extending to four figures . I am not sure now, but that was the price of the beast.

MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the subject is very technical for the hon. member who has just sat down. She is not a farmer and I do not think she should have come into this issue at all. Now in all the reclaimed areas the bulls and rams are purchased in bulk on a subsidy basis. You imagine a man acting against the interests of the community and introducing a black ram. How could those people deal with the particular individual if there is no provision in the law for that? (Interjections) This is provided against those people who will act against the interests of the community and I think it is clear to all the farmers . OPPOSITION MEMBER: What is wrong with a black ram?

On Clause 14 I MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may we have an explanation about this. This question of procedure supposing I have a bull and I seek to have it introduced into an area where there is a conservation scheme. What is the procedure to be followed?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The procedure is that you have to satisfy the authorities who give you the permit to introduce the beast that it is a bull of blood.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am sorry I cannot reply to you if you don't know. In any event this provision is made to protect the community who want to improve their stock. The cattle graze together in one camp and the rams are purchased on a subsidy basis . Why should people go and get good stock if their stock is going to be served by inferior rams or bulls?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I cannot accept the amendment.

MR. GUZANA: I take it there will be no preference for any type of breed, so long as it is of good breed?

The amendment was lost by 31 votes

to 42.

Clause 14 put and agreed to by 43 votes to 31.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , because the people of each area know what kind of bulls they want.

The debate was adjourned.

House Resumed .

MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the reason why I wish this section to be deleted is because when mention was made of pedigreed bulls I think what should have been done first was to increase the number of agricultural demonstrators , so that the agricultural officers will instruct

The Deputy Chairman reported progress .

The Assembly adjourned until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 22nd June, 1966 . -416-

WEDNESDAY, 22ND JUNE, 1966 .

decent standard of cattle is being maintained in the Transkei, it will be necessary that the cattle should be inspected. This section authorizes the Govemment officer to call upon the people to have their stock collected at a fixed time and place, and for him to inspect. Unauthorized cattle could have been introduced into the Transkei and the officer may call upon the owner of such cattle to give information on the origin of such cattle. This will assist to counteract the illegal introduction of cattle to the Transkei.

The Assembly resumed at 10 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and , after amendment , confirmed. TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House sit in committee.

MR. RAJUILI : I take it that this officer just entering the premises is done without the consent of the owner concemed?

MR . K.M. GUZANA: I second, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman , we have a little matter which we would like to refer to those responsible for the maintenance of the Assembly Hall. Right behind us here we have a real draught blowing again st our backs . It is most chilling and members have complained repeatedly about the ventilation and the draught that hits them in the back. We request that this be attended to.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The inspection is done without prior notice because the practice is that during an inspection day which the people know about they hide the unauthorized cattle in the bush, and so we cannot compare this number of cattle with the stock registers. This section means that the stock inspector can call at your home and then inspect the cattle at the cattle kraal.

THE CHAIRMAN : I thank the hon . Mr. Guzana for his remarks. They are not the only people who are feeling the cold . We feel it too.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I am thankful for the explanation by the hon. Minister. I thought perhaps the position was the other way, but it appears to be exactly as I thought and I think this must be deleted.

House in Committee The debate on clasue 13 was resumed.

THE

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I shall first give an opportunity to the Minister in charge of the Bill to give a statement in connection with the question put to him by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana yesterday in respect of clause 13 (2) (b) and (c). THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have a brief reply to the question by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I refer him to clause 13 (2) where it is said the Minister shall give notice. There cannot be any case where he expropriates land without giving notice to the owner or his representative. Sub-clause (5 ) only relates to the taking of the land after notice has been given. Now the relative section is 13 (5) which says that the title deed of any land expropriated will have to be cancelled , and this is what this section is aiming at. Once the land has been expropriated it becomes the property of the Government and the title deeds of such land will have to be endorsed accordingly. This , however, still does not exempt the Government from paying adequate compensation. MR . GUZANA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MINISTER

OF

AGRICULTURE :

Good!

MR. RAJUILI: I am glad the hon. Minister feels that this section must be deleted , and since he has seen fit I think it has saved my words because this would mean I would like him to understand that in this House if we should see anybody hanging about our kraals at some forbidden hour, we would destroy him.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No, he will come in the daytime . MR. RAJUILI : We do not allow that sort of nonsense. I can assure the members that that will be the case everywhere in the Transkei . It does not matter at what time of the day it shall be, you send any officer in the Maluti region without the knowledge of the owner and I can assure you he will be looking for trouble. I cannot just go to my brother's or my aunt's kraal without asking permission and do this sort of thing. The hon . Minister says this must be accepted because the people will hide some stock. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, I know it.

Clause 13 put and agreed to. On Clause 15 MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , would the hon. Minister like to explain this clause and perhaps save time? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the inspection of bulls cannot be properly carried out if the inspector is not allowed to enter on any premises where stud bulls are kept. This section makes it legal for an inspector to enter upon any premises for purposes of inspection; and section 15 (2), to ensure that a

MR. RAJUILI : Perhaps it may happen in his area where people do such things. We have our chiefs who are administrative officers and the type of thing he is suggesting is a terrible reflection on the integrity of the chiefs and the people of the Transkei. If it is done in your region it shocks us to hear that such things happen. This is not new, Sir. It has happened back in the early 1930s and the wise men who were in charge then saw that it was not necessary .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Do you understand that the word "officer" include s the chief or headman of your location?

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government officer could go and check stock at the proper place . The driving of stock to the dipping tank encourages erosion . He does not quite convince me why he objects to the visits of these Government officers to his kraal . Perhaps he is rearing a baboon for witchcraft. (Laughter) With regard to his fears about a young bull tollie , we expect a bull tollie to be castrated at the two-tooth stage.

MR . RAJUILI : I understand that and I would not like any of our chiefs to be so degraded , can't you see? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No, he is a Government officer. MR . RAJUILI : In fact , even if he is a pinkfaced person it will be worse.

MR. L.T. MAZWI : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. There is something that puzzles us and we cannot understand why this section has been inserted. There are rules and regulations for stopping thieves in the Territories , and there is another law to the effect that no beasts can be introduced unless people have gone through the proper channels . I cannot understand why he says animals might be hidden in the forest because how can they be introduced into the Transkei?

MR . H.H. ZIBI : I second , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I oppose this amendment on the same grounds as I claimed when I was explaining to the hon. member. MR . N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my amendment refers to clause 15 ( 1) and I move that the words "any reasonable time" be deleted and the following substituted "fixed times" , and I would like to add these words "at dipping tanks " . Mr. Chairman , according to this clause it is desired to improve stock. That is a good step but there are certain things that the people do not approve of. The entering of an officer into a person's kraal or cattle kraal , or the buildings in which the cattle are kept, disturbs the people in their homes. At times you have officers who are very rigid in carrying out their duty and who follow the letter of the law strictly, thus leading to prosecution of people when it was not really necessary to go to that extent. In the rearing of cattle there are many instances of that nature. It is on that account that I feel there should be a specified time (say twice E a year) and that such inspection be carried out at

the dipping tank. If this is carried out with understanding between the parties , then there will be happiness and progress. It is not desirable to adopt an attitude that is not healthy between the officers and the people. What is required is harmonious coI operation. I would like you to be assured that particularly in the rearing of stock there are matters which often lead to prosecution when it could have been avoided. It often happens during the season that there are good calves for that year, which the owner intends to have castrated , but the officer may appear just before this operation is carried out and there may have been a reason for him delaying a carrying out this operation . Possibly the animals might be too thin during that period or something else may have happened. It may be that he is aware there are too many flies at that period and if castration is carried out the calves might be in danger. If the officer is not understanding, but is rigid to the last letter of the law , then prosecutions may take place. That is why we desire that there should be a stipulated time of the year when everybody will know that at that time there will be an inspection of all beasts . You might also explain to us what happens if you find a scrub beast at the time.

4

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, what does the hon . member mean by the word "reasonable" ? I oppose this amendment because the hon. member has not satisfactorily explained the introduction of bad stock. As I have already said , if there is a fixed time then the stock will be hidden away in the bush or dongas. Stock can be inspected at dipping tanks but I would have him remember that sometimes a long time elapses before the stock is taken to the dipping tank. In any case it is a bad practice to take stock to the dipping tank when the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We want assurance doubly sure. MR. MAZWI : There are very strict regulations today, so much so that even thieves cannot possess animals without the knowledge of anyone. It cannot be understood why a Govemment officer should enter my kraal and inspect my beasts without my knowledge . (Interjections) There are dipping tanks and places where beasts can be inspected at different times. It appears as though the Government does not wish the people to rest at peace. At all times they descend like hawks over the people. You may be at home and you suddenly see a Government officer descending on your home to inspect your stock. I support the amendment. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish an addition to be made at the end of this clause 15 ( 1) - " in the presence of the location committee" . It is not every area which has accepted rehabilitation . I take it that this Act will only operate in those areas which have accepted rehabilitation . In bringing in this Bill the Government has not taken into account the committees in the various areas, whereas cognizance was taken of these committees by the Republican Government. It seems therefore that the Republican Government takes note of these things whereas our own Goverment disregards them . (Interjections ) We do not even know whether there is a board such as they have in the Republic, because that board is not even in the Native areas. (Interjections ) We are putting this because there are some officers who go to the village and get into a quarrel with the people there....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : delegate these duties .

The Minister may

CHIEF NDAMASE: Yes , under the word "officer" you include headman , chief or any other Govemment officer. It is stated that the chiefs will be in charge and we know that as far as rehabilitation is concemed the European officers are in charge. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, that is under multiracialism. CHIEF NDAMASE : Under this Bill the magistrate will take charge and pass judgment on the people and the chiefs do not know anything about it.

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Only the magistrates are mentioned and the chiefs are not mentioned. The board is composed of magistrates only. I would like these words to be added to the clause that the people should be advised before the officers come to inspect these animals. MR. C.S. MNYILA: I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I stand up to oppose the amendment with no comments because it is so stupid. (Laughter) MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and non. members, my amendment is that sub- clause 15 (2) should be deleted. In fact, I do not see the aims of this sub-clause when it is stated that an officer may tell the owner of stock to collect his stock at a certain place and time. It must be clear that men who reside in these locations are away at work in the labour centres . It is difficult to drive cattle to the tanks. (Interjections) The days fixed for dipping are quite enough. This section does not state that the cattle will go to the dipping tank to be inspected. They will go to the dipping tank as usual to be dipped but they must still be driven to a certain place to be counted. (Interjections ) The hon. Minister said the aim of this sub-section is to inspect certain bulls. Now in this sub-section he mentions cattle. The bull goes about alone. In addition he said he wants to stop thieving. (Interjections) It is clear that if this man cannot drive these cattle to the officer to be inspected he will be fined. You must realise that we pay for our cattle with our own money and we do not want them to be driven to the dipping tanks at all times. We do not want these

officers to come to our homes at any time. It is enough for them to go to the dipping tanks at the time of dipping.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I oppose the amendment and I have no comments. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, in seconding the mover of this amendment I want to stress that it is a thing that we are used to · that the bulls should be driven to the dipping tank for inspection. When the calves are born the dipping foreman writes down the number of bull calves so that they are known. When they are driven to the dipping tank the foreman knows that So- and-So has so many bull calves and then there is no fear that the cattle will be left at home and not driven to the dipping tank. If the bulls are driven to the dipping tank that would reduce the expenses which would be incurred by the inspector going from centre to centre, but according to this section it means that the officers go from one place to another, spending Government money unnecessarily. In that way we are trying to assist the Government not to spend money unnecessarily. The hon . the Minister of Justice says the bulls will be stolen but it is true that a bull is not easily stolen. The amendment by the hon . Mr. B. S. Rajuili was lost by 35 votes to 59 after a division as follows:-

NOES

AYES Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomt sheketshe Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana

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Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditsh wa Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tam sanga Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau

Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comit Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The amendment by the honourable Mr. N. Jafta was put and lost by 58 votes to 39 after a division as follows:-

NOES

AY ES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalin gozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Dr. Pakamile Horabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba

Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango

Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau

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Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, will you please make a ruling on this point, where a representative is seated on one side and the person whom he represents on the other. Now on a division the people vote by their bodily presence, either to the left or to the right. Now the Paramount Chief of Gcalekaland is to your right, among the "Ayes" and his representative to your left. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is not voting. His representative is voting. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall ignore his vote.

MR . GUZANA: Which? On both sides? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : He should have gone to the other side. MR. GUZANA: But he did not. He remained in his seat and he votes by his bodily presence . The question is: To which side does the vote belong if it is to be counted at all?

MR . GUZANA: It is either that his vote is counted or that of his representative. He cannot abstain from voting if he remains in the hall. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think I shall have to ignore his representative's vote. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, you cannot , Mr. Chairman. The position is that if the Paramount Chief does not want to take part in anything he can delegate that to his representative. That is the position , and the Paramount Chief has delegated the right of voting to his representative. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I would like to be clear about this. The Paramount Chief is here and the represantative is here. I see no reason why the representative should vote when the Paramount Chief is here himself, so the representative's vote will be ignored and the Paramount Chief's vote will be recognised on this side. The amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was lost by 37 votes to 53.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Ask him if he is voting.

The amendment by the hon . Mr. K.G. Nota was lost by 39 votes to 54 after a division as follows : AYES

NOES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke

Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo

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Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tam sanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengan a Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

Clause 15 put and agreed to by 54 votes to 39.

clause (2) be deleted. Sub- section ( 1) of clause 17 provides for cases where the Minister or some officer has decided that a certain type of bull should be castrated . It also indicates that that order shall be

On Clause 16

Clause 16 put and agreed to.

discharged or complied with, but sub- section (2) goes on to say that the fact that such bull has been castrated shall not affect the liability to punishment of any person who unlawfully kept that bull. It is remarkable here that sub- section (1) does not reflect on failure of the person who owned that bull to obey the order of castration by the relevant officer . In other words, he carried out the order as was given by the competent officer and it appears that there is no justification for inflicting punishment where the order has been carried out.

MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, we want the hon. Minister to motivate on clause 16. We want to know if the person branding the bull is the owner or an officer. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is nothing to say who should brand but an agreement could be made between the owner and an officer of the Government. He can ask the officer to brand it. All he needs supply is the brand mark.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If the bull has been disapproved of and no appeal has been lodged we must castrate it.

DR . H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman , I just want to know from the hon . Minister which of the dual purpose breeds he favours for the Transkei - the Dairy Shorthorn, the brown Friesland, the Angus , or what kind?

MR . MDA: Sub- section (1) reads " or if the appeal has been dismissed . " He has appealed and the appeal has been dismissed or withdrawn, and I maintain that it does not go further on to say he has defied the fact that his appeal has been dismissed and has continued to rear that bull. In other

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The Department is not really concerned and we do not favour any one particular breed, but the Transkei being so wide and of differing climatic conditions , we usually recommend that type of beast which suits that type of climate.

words, he has complied with the order originally given, whether he had appealed and lost that appeal , so why must he still be punished?

On Clause 17

MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second the amendment. Mr. Chairman, I want to stress strongly the injustice which is being done to the person concerned . This man has lost the use of his bull because it has

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment to this section , that sub-422-

·

been castrated and he has no other bull to serve his stock, and he admits that it should be castrated . Why then should he be prosecuted? We want to tell the hon. Minister clearly that the man should not be prosecuted because the bull has already been castrated . I have nothing more to add.

MR. MDA: Section 14 reads that no person shall keep on or introduce into his land any unregistered bull having one pair or more than one pair of permanent incisors. Let us suppose that the Government officer came round when my young bull was just beginning to have incisors showing, and maybe he decided he would leave it until such time as it would have shown more so that he may be able to decide more conclusively whether it was bad or good. When next he comes round it has more than a pair and yet it is still unregistered . He then gives an order that it must be castrated and I accordingly castrate the bull , but I am still not exonerated from liability . In any event the whole basis of this legislation takes away the initiative from the stock- owner and places it upon the Government, and we maintain that it is a wrong approach to take the initiative from the person and place it on the Government. In fact , agricultural officers have been going about the country telling the people exactly that.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , it puzzles me the rate at which the hon. members across the floor always try to protect lawbreakers. Straight from the Education Bill to the other bills , whenever there were punitive measures provided for lawbreakers, they were always making a hue and cry about it. MR. H.H.T.N. BUBU: We want you to be humane. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No, where there is a law there must be a provision for punishing the person who breaks that particular law, otherwise it can never have any effect. This provision is meant for the people who keep unregistered bulls and disallowed bulls. It says the fact that an unregistered bull has been castrated shall not affect the liability of the person to be punished. Even if it has been castrated it was kept before castration in contravention of the law.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Now, Mr. Chairman , this is going to develop into a dialogue or a duel for no apparent reason . There is no officer who is so ruthless as to tell you you must wait and he will come round again to see if the bull should be castrated or not, and he stays away only so that you should be prosecuted when two incisors have grown. That would certainly be an extenuating circumstance . But what is to stop the owner going to the official when he sees these teeth are well

MR. BUBU: While he is appealing?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , before the appeal it was kept in contravention of the law. It was unregistered. (Interjections) Section 14 says that once a bull has got two incisors, if a man keeps a bull with two incisors unregistered, he is breaking the law. He keeps it knowing he is liable to punishment.

up and saying: Come along, Sir, and examine my beast. Or, on the other hand, just prior to this you were refusing that the officer should come and inspect your stock, but the main thing is that the owner can go and ask any officer of the Department to assure him whether this beast is a good bull or not, and when the officer comes round he will certainly not prosecute you because he has not examined it before.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : If it is in midsummer how can he castrate it? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : If the bull has two incisors he must call upon the inspector to come and inspect his bull. It is his duty to do so. I see no reason why you people always clamour that there should be no punitive measures provided in order to make people keep the law. You seem to be wanting to create a state of chaos and confusion. (Interjections)

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, not much can be added to the remarks of the hon. the Minister of Justice , but I might add that the members on the other side do not seem to be keen on improving the quality of the stock in the Transkei , and, as the hon. Minister has just said, they want the lawbreaker to have so many loopholes that it is like chasing a cat in a room with all the windows open. A moment ago you were objecting to an officer coming to your kraal and searching for unregistered stock, and when he does discover it he tells you it has to be castrated and you object. And, mind you , you are keeping this bull unlawfully and you are already breaking the law by keeping a bull which is unregistered, and now you say you want to appeal (and you are allowed to appeal) and you appeal to the Minister, and the Minister after careful consideration finds you are wrong and then of course you have to pay the penalty. You are not being penalized for not castrating the bull. You are being penalized for keeping a bull unregistered . Now are you saying you did not keep an unregistered bull and you must not pay the fine?

The amendment was lost by 34 votes to 49. Clause 17 put and agreed to by 49 votes to 34. On Clause 18 MR . W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this section reference is made to bulls which will be inspected by the Government officer. This amendment aims at deleting the word "Govemment officer" and substituting " tribal head or chief" . The term " Government officer" is much too wide because anybody in the employ of the Goverment can step in and inspect these bulls. According to this amendment therefore , it should be a person in the area and not anyone from outside. The beasts belong to the The people know their beasts and they know why they have decided to keep that particular breed the beasts which are ascertained to be suitable for the area because they are off- spring of the stock which was from that area. Take an instance of an officer going to Gcalekaland and saying to the owner: You must castrate this bull.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : What are you talking about? Speak to this section . MR . MADIKIZELA: It is for that reason therefore that the amendment stipulates that it should be the people who know the area and who know what beasts are suitable for that area. Last year you passed the Bantu Authorities Act which stipulated

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that the cattle would be under the Bantu authorities. That is stipulated under the duties of tribal authorities. They are given the authority therefore to improve all the stock reared by the people. I am surprised that the chiefs should agree to their stock being taken away from them.

all the other factors , due to culling and particularly where the bulls have been castrated. There are large areas in the Transkei where you will find bulls are at a premium, and when such a state of affairs pertains cattle naturally tend to decrease . The object of this clause and these sub- sections is that those bulls which have been impounded and

MR. C. DIKO: I second the amendment. which do show a brand, although indistinctly, should be castrated.

1

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I oppose the amendment because it is frivolous in nature and now it wants to pin the Department to a certain class of official to chiefs and perhaps headmen who are heads of tribal authorities , and here we have the chiefs in this House for two or three months a year, and in the meantime what is going to happen to the castration of bulls in the pound? Now suppose they had the experience (which they lack)? As you know chiefs are never trained officers to distinguish the difference in grades of cattle. We have officers who are available and at our disposal upon whom you should rely, as we do , and who should be able to tell you that this is a good beast and should be kept as a sire. But there is just one point in which I sympathize with you. My nephew there is quite right to say that the official concerned should consult the people of the locality to find out what type of cattle they like , or which suit their climatic conditions , and we have no objection to that at all . MR . C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman, I am very disappointed that the hon. Minister should object to this amendment because they have been constantly repeating that they are taking away the powers from the White people and giving it to the Chiefs .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: But these are Africans , like you . MR . DIKO: Now the hon. Minister knows , just as I know, that in the Qaukeni region there are no African officers , only Whites. You know we have only White officials who tell us what bulls to castrate and what bulls to keep. Now may I tell you that last week I went to the office here in Umtata to consult some of your veterinary officers because I had trouble with my sheep and goats which died. That man had the audacity not even to offer me a chair to sit on. He just said I must bring that sheep or goat which died and put it in the boot of my car so that he could examine it. (Laughter) And now if you invite me to go to the office I will point him out because I do not know his name. Now the Europeans who work amongst us are very unsympathetic so you must not be deceitful in your statements . If you say you are giving power to the Africans you must give it. Some of these people do not even have cattle or sheep but they are very keen to reduce our wealth , so we are suggesting that when you say "officers" , and in the definition of " officer" you include chief and headman , then you must send him to decide what bull to keep, not the European.

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my amendment is to the effect that sub-clauses (2) and (3) should be deleted . A few days ago the hon. Minister showed that the cattle population of the Transkei is decreasing, and at the moment of speak-

MR. L.A. LUWACA: I second the amendment . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I oppose the amendment. No case has been brought forward to show why these sections should be done away with. These two sections refer to unlawfully kept bulls bulls which are unregistered and they cannot augment the population of bulls in the Transkei while they remain scrub. As the speaker said, bulls are at a premium in the Transkei. This only happens where a bull is impounded and it shows no identification mark that it has been branded, and therefore that bull has got to be castrated before it leaves the pound. The poundmaster, of course, will inform the owner and tell him that even though he has paid the pound fee, he cannot drive his bull away so that it can breed unlawfully in the location and so the co-operative owner just castrates the bull. MR . GUZANA : May I just put a question , Mr. Chairman? If the bull is castrated on the direction of the officer who has mistakenly condemned what would otherwise qualify for registration as a good bull, who is liable to the owner? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is not reflected in this clause. MR . GUZANA : That is why I am asking, because that may well happen. I have got a bull which would be registered if the officer had called on me to inspect it . On trespass it gets to the pound and your officer mistakenly regards it as a bull not fit to be registered and castrates it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Why mistake it?

MR . GUZANA: Who would be liable for that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It would be the officer personally. MR . GUZANA: Not the Department? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , the officer.

MR. GUZANA: Don't just answer off the cuff. You must make sure of it. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No , it is the officer.

MR. GUZANA: Jointly and severally with his master? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes .

ing we are busy in the Transkei putting up a factory for meat and bones . The successful operation of that factory depends on a liberal supply of cattle. The decrease in the number of cattle in the Trans-

The amendment by the hon . Mr. W. Madikizela was lost by 40 votes to 55 after a division as follows:-

kei is, to a certain and perhaps greater extent than -424-

NOES

AYES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1 . J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The amendment by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda was lost by 36 votes to 54.

Transkei Agricultural Development Bill was resumed.

On Clause 19 Clause 18 of the Bill put and agreed to by 53 votes to 40.

MR . W. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , while we are on this castration question ...

The debate was adjourned. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? There is nothing about the castration of bulls in that section .

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the committee stage

of the

MR. MADIKIZELA: " The Minister may, by notice in the Official Gazette, apply the provisions

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f section 14……..'" which also refer to the castration f bulls. If you wish you may read section 14. Now may say that this castration of bulls failed . It was irst put into effect ....

should buy the Farmers' Weekly. He introduces this to them after closing the School of Agriculture which taught people what kind of fowls to buy.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Because things fail ou say there must be no law in the country .

stand the mentality of the Opposition members . When legislation is made in any country, it is made for the people. The Government is a reasonable Government and the law that is made here is made

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is difficult to under-

MR . MADIKIZELA: First the people were encouraged to rear Shorthorn cattle and it was discovered that they were not suitable . Then followed nes lands, then it was decided that all bulls must ›e castrated and only the Afrikander bulls were left ecause they were suited to this country . Those hings were done to people who are still here today, and who were members of the old Bunga. The person vho preached this to us held that in seventy years all our cattle would have become thoroughbred and hereafter this castration of bulls went on for over :en years.

for the people. This is an enabling clause so that when the people say they do not want that class of mule , for instance , then the Government should be in a position to meet the wishes of the people , and in the absence of legislation nothing can be done even though the people say they do not want that particular thing. For goodness ' sake , no Govemment can act arbitrarily against the wishes of the people, but the Government has got to make legislation so that it can meet the wishes of the people. MR. MDA: Mr. Chairman , our Government is too ready to help the people apparently, but in its eagerness it destroys those very essentials with which it would be in a position to convince the people of its help.

MR . G.G. KUTU : I second, Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairnan, I intend to oppose the amendment. It is not worth any comments . The principle has been adopted already. All this section means is that it enables the Minister to apply the provisions of section 14 to sheep , goats , donkeys and other livestock . Naturally we do not want to improve one class of livestock and leave the other to deteriorate . We even improve poultry, pigs and other stock , except baboons , of course . (Laughter)

THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

What

essentials?

MR . MDA : I will just refer to the 850 people in the Minister's locality who do not know the difference between a Leghorn and a Rhode Island Red. THE CHIEF MINISTER : They will be taught.

MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , I just want to say that this castration of beasts failed completely. Now, after the hon. the Chief Minister has assured us, it is being revived again . What is necessary and is badly needed in these Territories is education which will enable people to understand thoroughly all these things . (Interjections) We ought to be given education relating to our stock so that people will be acquainted with the proper methods of rearing these animals . You are opposing that and you just want to oppress the people. The people want meat, trek oxen , milk cows....

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You just want scrub cattle. MR . MADIKIZELA: You do not mind if they are not suitable for the Transkei as long as they suit the educated people. I move the amendment in my name. MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman , I want this clause 19 to be deleted altogether. It mentions poultry and pigs . During the time of the U.T.T.G.C. there was a School of Agriculture at Tsolo and that school sold fowls , pigs and sheep. It was not only teaching people about types of fowls but it taught them what

MR. MDA: That position maintains as long as the Tsolo School of Agriculture has been in existence, and during those years the people were capable of being taken to the school and seeing the fowls themselves . This Government has abolished that opportunity for the people to go and see these things and being taught practically about them. It runs with all speed to try and convince 850 people when only 50 out of 900 have known the difference between a Rhode Island and a White Leghorn.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It is very pathetic to listen to an emotional appeal by a dungbeetle which pushes the manure backwards . (Laughter) What the hon . members on the other side do not understand is that this is just an enabling clause so that the Government can subsidize these people who are serious about their farming, and if there is no such enabling clause then the Department cannot go to the Treasury to ask for money to subsidize reasonable people . He does not know that he was paying only about 25 per cent of the price of the fowls that were available at Tsolo. (Interjections )

THE

5$ the type was suitable for. If you had money you could buy that particular type of fowl or sheep. As soon as this Government came into power that sale of sheep and poultry at Tsolo was stopped . The other day the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said people should buy the Farmer's Weekly where they could see what type of poultry and pigs to buy. In his area only about 50 people out of 900 know what kind to buy , and that the White Leghorn is for laying

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : So this is only an enabling clause , Mr. Chairman. With those few words, we cannot accept a retrograde step of a dung-beetle .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will now put the amendment.

only and the Rhode Island Red for eating, and the type of sheep which is good for wool is the Merino. The Minister says the other 850 people of his area

MR. H.H. ZIBI : The twenty minutes is not up

yet.

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THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You have still got to vote. It is twenty minutes for the whole clause. The amendment by the hon. Mr. Madikizela was lost by 36 votes to 52 after a division as follows: NOES

AYES

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapho Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqike la Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The amendment by the honourable Mr. C.S. Mda was put and lost by 56 votes to 38 after a division as follows:-

AYES

NOES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba

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Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima. Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi

Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Tamsanqa Hornabrook Bubu Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers : 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

Clause 19 put and agreed to by 53 votes to 37 after a division as follows: -

AYES

NOES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe

Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Eben ezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla

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Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau

Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamini Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Cheman Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

On Clause 20 MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, we would like a full explanation on clause 20. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The Govemment realises that it is beyond the means of most of the farmers in the Transkei to buy expensive sires and will, in terms of this section , be able to assist the farmers financially in acquiring approved sires for breeding purposes . Clause put and agreed to.

On Clause 21 MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, we would like motivation on paragraphs (a) and (b). I may be able to drop that amendment if I get the proper explanation. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, before I give the motivation , if a soil conservation scheme has been declared applicable to any land no person shall introduce any livestock from outside the Transkei or move livestock from one area to the other except under the authority of a permit issued by the Minister.

MR. GUZANA: May I ask you a question? If I am in a conservation area and there is somebody in an area not conserved, he has stock and I have not, but I have the plough and the yokes and we plough together. Will the stock be able to get into my area for purposes of ploughing? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: For temporary purposes, yes. Look at the definiti on of "introduce". MR. GUZANA : Now that definition seems to cause quite a lot of difficulty. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Look at (b) of the definition. It does not include taking livestock into the area temporarily. MR. GUZANA: I see. Now, Sir, that solves one trouble under (b), but here is a hypothetical situation under (a). I get into Natal, find that there is a stock sale - a clearance sale of good pedigree stock there. I have not got a permit on the spot and the sale is going on and I want to buy the stock . The seller is quite prepared to give me a certificate as to the breed of the stock I want to buy. Can I have ratification of the introduction of that beast into the Transkei on submission of the certificate of

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1

the breed and immunity from infection? Can I introduce the beast and then apply for ratification of my action? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : On your own risk, if it is not a good bull. MR. GUZANA: Who said anything about bulls? I am talking about pedigree stock. I am thinking of a situation where this stock is sold at bargain prices... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is no difficulty with a man like you, but in any case if you buy stock at a stock sale you can apply for a permit telephonically and then of course you must get the clearance certificate from the other end. Then you are quite safe as long as you have gone through the proper channels , so I agree with you. You will get a permit.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I am sure the country will be shocked to hear the remarks of the hon. member across the floor . For a responsible man of his education and standard in social life to say that even if a country is eroded, denuded and almost shattered to pieces , it should be overloaded with cattle from England , America , all over without any permit.... (Interjections) We are a reasonable Government. This Govemment has already granted permits to certain people to introduce cattle from outside the Transkei but you cannot scrape off legislation altogether, bec ause then there will be no government at all.

CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, I have found what I was looking for. I am going to read the portion the Minister of Agriculture. to explain to the hon. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, why do you sanction this? We are on a different amendment.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have closed the MR. GUZANA : I can buy the stock and get a permit with ratification?

debate on Mr. Mda's amendment and we are returning to Chief Majeke's .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: that guarantee I will give you.

CHIEF MAJEKE : On page 7 of the speech of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development he says, amongst other things : " The farmers and people who rear cattle in the Transkei are now in a position to improve their livestock. In this they will get assistance to cure stock diseases , and the requirement that cattle should not be introduced from other countries ....

Yes,

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman , I would also like the hon. Minister to explain this point: The Minister will remember that when the hon.. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development Mr. Botha, opened Parliament here he said in his speech that cattle would not be introduced into the Transkei from outside....

THE CHIEF MINISTER: When stock has been improved. You cannot understand simple things.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Nothing of the kind.

CHIEF MAJEKE: They are making a noise on the other side and are not even listening.

CHIEF MAJEKE : I realised then that he was talking about this Bill which is being introduced now. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No. Where did he say that? CHIEF MAJEKE: I have got it here.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I suggest we carry on with the next amendment while we are waiting. MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I want the whole clause deleted. In his speech the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , supported strongly by the hon. the Chief Minister, said that this Government was for the people . This Government was going to remove all the things that have been done to the people by the previous Government, but now you are refusing to allow this to happen. The Minister of Agriculture gave a good example in the dungbeetle . They are now doing exactly what we were fighting against - repealing by consolidation . The European farmers do not have to get any permits when they want to introduce beasts from overseas . They only have to be quarantined when they arrive here. Why is it that when I want to buy a beast of my own choice I should have to go and get permission? The trouble with this Government is that the things which the Europeans were shy to do to us, they feel bold enough to do. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You do not understand the interpretation . CHIEF MAJEKE: I think the mover should move this amendment and I will second it. It is ridiculous that we should not be able to buy cattle from Maclear. (Interjections) THE MINISTER irrelevant.

OF AGRICULTURE :

It is

CHIEF MAJEKE : Do you mean that a person can buy a beast from Maclear and introduce it to the Transkei without a permit? THE CHIEF MINISTER: With a permit. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The hon. Mr. Guzana was referring to an extreme case where he was confronted with a sale suddenly. He does not mean you can just go to Maclear and buy cattle and introduce them without a permit.

CHIEF MAJEKE: The cattle are not allowed to enter other locations but they do enter my location . (Interjections) Other locations in Qumbu have fenced but they are not allowed to introduce cattle from outside. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , it has been explained to me that it is possible to buy and obtain a permit subsequent to that in such a situation. I will oblige you and withdraw.

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MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, last year when we were talking about labour and wages which were going to be in the form of livestock, we were assured by the Government that such livestock in the way of wages would be allowed and we have told the people about it.

MR. RAJUILI: Now what happens if a man living in Soweto has a place and resides in a place other than that? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You cannot introduce stock into Qamata when you are resident in Maluti.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : We give them permits. MR. RAJUILI : Are we going to tell them now that in this following year that will be scraped off and it will not be allowed?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: If you do not reside in Qamata and you reside in Maluti you cannot go and introduce cattle into Emigrant Tembuland. It concems your own area.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Did you tell them they could introduce without permits?

MR. GUZANA: However, a speculator will not be embarrassed by this provision?

MR. RAJUILI : We did not tell them the nonsense contemplated by the hon. the Minister of Justice. Mr. Chairman, I do not forget interjections. At one time I insisted on asking you that the hon . Minister withdraw something that he said. I had forgotten we were told a few days ago that he was cursed by his dying mother. I can see the curse on him. (Laughter) Now, to come to this amendment , I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what he means by "who does not reside" . You see, I live in the largest urban area in the continent of Africa and I have quite a lot of stock in my homeland , and I just want to understand this .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I will explain. In regard to the term "residence" , I think you should look up the definition . It means your permanent home not Soweto. That is not your permanent residence. Your residence is at Maluti. You have just gone there to work at Soweto. AYES Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke

THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , not at all.

MR. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, it looks as if this explanation given by someone who understands has satisfied me. In view of that explanation I will withdraw this amendment. Agreed to.

The amendment by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda was lost by 37 votes to 50. Clause 21 of the Bill put and agreed to by 54 votes to 37 after a division as follows:-

NOES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke

Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe, Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana

Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda

Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeo Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ferguson Gwadiso

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Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga

Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers : 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Mzauteti Diko Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi

1 Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane

Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

Ciause 22 put and agreed to . On Clause 23 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving clause 23 I wish to say to my hon . friend that I have considered his amendment and have found it to be genuine , so we will delete sub-section 23 (b) because he is a very reasonable man.

explanation and advice here in regard to the eradication of noxious weeds before such weeds have borne seed. I have seen this happen particularly in areas which have been left by the residents and plenty of noxious weeds have subsequently grown. I have further noted that many people ha ve tried to eradicate the weed after it has gone to seed. To my knowledge such weeds spread easily over a very large area as a result of being borne by the wind. I would like this particularly to be noted by the Minister.

Clause 23, as amended , put and agreed to. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister concerned to the noxious weeds that grow along the pathways. Such weeds go to seed and nobody deals with them and the seed blows on to our privately owned plots. What can be done in such cases?

Clause 24 put and agreed to.

On Clause 25 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , provision is here being made that any owner or occupier of land shall eradicate such weeds or report the presence of such weeds to the Govemment officer. The Government is also aware of the fact that there may be so many of these proclaimed weeds that it will be beyond the financial means of the owner or occupier to eradicate such weeds. Circumstances such as these will be dealt with under section 26.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am grateful for the remarks of the speakers and I shall note them .

Clause 26 put and agreed to. On Clause 27 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , one gets the impression here that able-bodied persons living in a conservation area may be compelled to render labour and sometimes it occurs that ablebodied men who live in an administrative area are

Clause 25 put and agreed to. On Clause 26 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, in this section a big concession is being made. The Government is fully aware of the incident of the infestation of such weeds and here the Government is prepared to assist financially or to give assistance in the eradication of such weeds , if so required by the owner or occupier. The Minister must, however, satisfy himself that such a request is reasonable.

DR. H.P. BALA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know about the noxious weeds which are neither on the plot nor in the yard, nor in any privately owned land, but which however grow elsewhere. Who is responsible for the eradication of those weeds? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : See section 27

(d). MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , I would like an -432-

in employment in a neighbouring town or village. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you want us to say " able-bodied loafers "? MR. GUZANA: Some difficulties therefore may arise where these people are to report for work and at the same time are required in terms of this section to render free forced labour. Does the hon. Minister consider a man contributing financially in lieu of labour where it is impossible for him to render personally that service , so that people may be employed to do what he would normally do personally were he available to the chief for such purpose? I would also wish to submit to the hon. Minister that where people are unable to render this service, although able- bodied , the circumstances should be looked into as it might well be found that such people are just unable to render that service due to circumstances over which they have no control.

shall ask the members not to repeat themselves.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just quote an instance.

CHIEF MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman, I also want to draw the attention of the hon. Minister that the Government will assist in the eradication of weeds.

MR. GUZANA: Where , for instance , an attorney, A, lives in administrative area B and he has got a case set down in administrative area C, and on the day that he has to be in court you also require him to render labour in the administrative area B. May I also suggest that whilst such labour is expected of able-bodied persons in an administrative area to keep their area free of weeds, or to extinguish fires or render other services , it should not be the policy of his Department to rely on this forced labour, but that his Department should be willing to hire people in order to assist. In other words , this provision should have the effect of supplementing hired labour rather than substituting for hired labour.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is here. It says the Government will assist in the eradication of weeds. CHIEF MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman, the other things are well understood , such as fire and so on , but now I am speaking on behalf of people who have come on holiday to the location and because they are able-bodied they will be asked to go and help eradicate weeds. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: This is a communal service.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I have listened very carefully to the remarks of my learned friend, but he seems to lose sight of the fact that this has been a practice from time immemorial. In this case the Department is dealing with a community and so the absence of the attorney or anybody else who is visiting friends elsewhere does not come into the picture . We leave that to the area concerned.

CHIEF MAJEKE: To elaborate, people without any sympathy is not a good thing. Secondly , these noxious weeds come from the commonages in the villages. (Interjections) The people are made servants to eradicate weeds but the seeds of these weeds come from the villages . DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman, would the hon. Minister please clarify under section 27 (e) the words "establishing woodlots" ? Does this mean that the whole area must go and help plant these woodlots?

MR. GUZANA: My point is that there should be some indulgence if circumstances render it impossible for a person to attend, otherwise the provision has a punitive consequence. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, we are dealing with the case of a community and it is for the community to complain to the Department that the works allocated are beyond their means , just as has been the case with weeds in the sections we have just passed, but , Mr. Chairman , I cannot envisage any such circumstances because this is maintenance it is not construction. My friend, the hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase gave an instance of contour banks which are constructed to hold water and those banks are so constructed that they cannot easily fall to pieces , but if you see a mole hole through the bank it is not beyond your capacity to close that hole with soil.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think all the chiefs and headmen know that in the application of this requirement the people who are at work are not obliged to come and render services at all. It is only the able-bodied loafers the men who go to beer drinks and sleep next to the cattle kraal doing nothing. Now people who are disabled cannot be forced to render services. It is a matter for the chiefs and headmen to get these people to assist in the eradication of weeds which are dangerous to their own land, such as the jointed cactus.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Yes. DR. BALA: That is forced labour such as are now appertains in Russia. (Laughter) You surprising us. We are willing to help if there is a grass fire that is threatening a plantation . We are talking about plantations , no longer about noxious weeds. When we want to buy wood from these plantations you require us to peep through windows. (Laughter) We would like specially to know about the labour of the women in these plantations. They are carrying very heavy loads , loading trucks and lorries . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , to make it clear, this is a provision where for example a chief or headman requires a certain forest for the community in order to have firewood. Without this clause the chief or headman cannot have the assistance of his people in working up this forest. It is not that the Government is going to force the people. We hire people to work in the forests. MR. GUZANA: At 25 cents a day.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is for the chiefs and headmen who want to establish plantations and there must be a law behind them. Clause 27 put and agreed to.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman....

On Clause 28

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am closing the debate on this. We have spent enough time on it. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , you have shown a certain amount of reasonableness in applying the twenty minutes to each clause. On this clause we have not spent more than eight minutes and there is still some comment. I crave your indulgence for these members to be given an opportunity to say one or two words.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Very well, but I

MR. C.S. MDA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I move my amendment to this sub-section (b) of section 28 ( 1) I would like first to ask the hon. Minister to motivate, with particular reference to the words which the amendment seeks to have deleted. These are "and without any obligation to pay compensation therefor" . Those words suggest that there might be cases where actually compensation was deserving but it has been inserted to escape the responsibility of compensating. -433-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you understand it is for the benefit of that very land? MR. MDA: I do, but I just want his motivation and it being satisfactory I may consider withdrawing the amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : This section is intended to enable the Government to be able to dig stones and remove sand and also cut wood for the purpose of doing work on that land, so actually the removal of these things is for the benefit of the same land. Compensation is justifiably payable where there is a loss . Now if these things are done for the benefit of the same land , I do not see how there can be said to be any loss , more especially as this is not going to be arbitrarily done, but done in consultation with the owner of the land and I believe that in such consultation even the place where the stones are to be dug and the trees to be cut is by agreement between the persons concerned. MR. MDA: Doesn't that go to suggest that those words should not have been there before, because they suggest instances where compensation might have been necessary , whereas actually there are no grounds for compensation? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No , it is to safeguard the Government from people making frivolous claims against it. It is just protective on the Govemment.

I 1

MR. GUZANA: Not only. The situation in which stone which is going to be used on one land is taken away from another might entail compensation being paid.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : .... and that is why we have to have this provision of distributing and removing these eggs or insects. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is the hon . member satisfied? MR. MDA: Yes , Mr. Chairman . MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , there is an amendment standing in the name of the hon . Mr. Bubu, who has had to leave , and I would like to speak to it. This seeks to amend sub- clause (2 ) (a) by deletion of the words from " and" in the first line to the 66 word "anything" and substituting the phrase all investigations " . Now when you say a person can get onto any land and thereupon do anything, it does suggest that he may be destructive. He can get on to a mealie land and start cutting down the mealies to see ifthere is any noxious weed or dagga growing among the mealies, and acting irresponsibly he may claim protection under this loosely phrased provision and do thereon anything, but if he makes all investigations he has not got the authority to destroy but rather to conduct an investigation with a certain purpose.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, with a view to explaining..... MR. GUZANA: Have you been resuscitated now? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes , it was not my fault that I was off the track. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I accept the amendment, but it will read "make any investigations" . Clause 28 as amended put and agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , it says 66 on On Clause 29 that land" . It is for purposes of construction on that land.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , I would like this explained in connection with the removing of soil and sand. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is on the land. Supposing there is a little donga on the land where there is sand , and you need it perhaps for mixing cement, and you have to remove it ; or you need to remove the soil from one part in order to close up a little sluit on the same land.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish the House would not exhort the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to motivate because he is now dry. I think what we have to do is to goad him into motivating and this is how I do it: Sub-section (1) (a) restricts the removal of animal manure, including bat manure, from an administrative area without having first obtained the written permission of the Minister. I take it that the authority to issue such permit will be delegated . THE CHIEF MINISTER: To the chief or headman.

MR. MDA: I am quite satisfied with the motivation, Mr. Chairman , and I accordingly withdraw the amendment. Now in connection with the next amendment, I do not actually know what is meant by the words "entering upon any land and remove therefrom or distribute thereon any insect or the eggs of any insect or any organism which is injurious to any plant which has been declared to be a weed..." What is the purpose of distributing such eggs or insects? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , it frequently occurs that on some land there are some trees or weeds which have to be destroyed - like prickly pear, for instance. Now there are certain insects which are capable of destroying prickly

MR . GUZANA: One would like to know why it is necessary that such a permit be issued. I may well acquire a kraal full of manure in an administrative area by private arrangement of purchase with the owner of that kraal . Why should it be necessary for me to get a permit now to remove that manure into my area? After all , it is sought to encourage agriculture and in this way the progressive farmer may well be impeded by the fact that he has still to go and get a permit for some manure which is lying idle at a kraal site which may have been abandoned because the people have moved to some other area. Is it not right that a person should be able to get manure freely and easily without having to get a permit.

pears .... MR. GUZANA: And then they bec ome pests afterwards?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The explanation is quite simple because we have to control the distribution of manure . We charge nothing -434-

1

without reference to the headman for the purpose of selling it outside the Transkei . That is why we say the powers can be delegated to the headman . As a matter of fact there are such prohibitions which are never even attended to by the headmen. We just leave matters and let them go.

for a permit but what brought this about really, as far as my experience is concerned in the Department, was farmers coming right from outside the Transkei and carting manure to their areas . MR. GUZANA: Well, if that is your purpose why don't you say no person shall remove any animal manure, etc. , from the Transkei to a place outside the Transkei ? That would meet your purposes.

MR. GUZANA: Well, you say you want to stop Europeans from exploiting this manure, but you say to them they can still go to the headman and get a permit and so they can still get a permit to take it outside the Transkei. What is the effect of your prohibition? It just fails.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I still have my difficulty there because I would rather the manure were used in that administrative area. That is what we encourage.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Well, he is a Government officer so we leave it to his discretion.

MR . GUZANA: Yes , we agree there but there might be superfluous manure which will be required in another area. Why should they have to get a permit to remove that superfluous manure?

MR. GUZANA: So it can still go outside the Transkei.

The debate was adjourned.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If you have proved that that manure is superfluous, that is why we give you a permit.

House Resumed .

The Deputy Chairman reported progress .

MR. GUZANA: Why need there be control over the dealing in manure? Supposing there is not sufficient manure in an administrative area, the natural consequence of your comment is that you will not give a permit to move manure out of that area. I am a widow and I have no land, but I have stock. I have manure here and A, living in another administrative area, seeks manure. Why can't I deal with him direct instead of getting a permit?

MR. GUZANA: I certainly would not support that. We must concede that Umtata has no adequate facilities for accommodating members of the Assembly and some of them live outside.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : How can we control it without permits?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You have caucus meetings at 9 o'clock.

MR. GUZANA: Why control it? I could understand if you said manure spreads disease from one area to another.

MR. GUZANA: I have never been able to register a hundred per cent attendance at caucuses at 9 a.m. Let us not go to the extreme of meeting at 9 o'clock, but stick to 10 o'clock because it gives members a chance.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No, it spreads fertility. What is your trouble about a permit? MR. GUZANA: This is my trouble. I need manure and I go to the headman and they tell me he has gone to a beer drink at another administrative area. He comes back half drunk that night and the next morning he has a hangover and wants a bottle of brandy before he will give me a permit. (Laughter) And so it goes on and on. My suggestion is that if manure may be moved easily, quickly and effectively without a permit, why introduce a procedure that might be cumbersome and might even defeat the purpose for which you intend manure to be used?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I suggest that we sit at 9.30 a.m. tomorrow.

THE CHAIRMAN : It is a pity that the hon. Minister had to announce that because I have to announce now. We are behind schedule so tomorrow moming we shall start at 9.30 . Members must try and be here promptly. I shall call the roll at 9.30. THe Assembly adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 23rd June, 1966.

THURSDAY, 23RD JUNE, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 9.30 a.m. Prayers were read.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But, Sir, don't you know that the longer manure stays, the more it matures?

MR. GUZANA: Don't talk like that because manure can stay indefinitely if that is the case, and then it will never be used. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: So where is the cumbersomeness and where is the hurry? MR. GUZANA: Why not? I have a lorry available and land to put it in. THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is the position , Mr. Chairman. In the Transkei we have European areas and the Europeans can go and collect manure

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the rules were waived in respect of the time when we should begin our sitting. The conse quent result is that we sit in the morning for over three hours continuously, and this side of the House feels that there should be a short break to enable some of us to have tea. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Provided you don't have these divisions. you are responsible for it. MR. GUZANA: I hope the Chairman will ignore the splenetic reaction of the hon. the Chief Minister.

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He was not in the House when I came here... THE CHIEF MINISTER: This side of the House will have no objection if we break at 11 o'clock and come back at 10 minutes past.

reported that the residents of the Transkei have to seek a permit to transport manure from one kraal to another. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No. such permit will be required .

THE CHAIRMAN : I think a quarter past. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : I have never seen them drink any tea. They only drink something else. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA: The word "tea" is all-embrasive. It means you may have your " tea" too.

MR. JAFTA: It was mentioned that a permit would have to be issued to transfer manure from one kraal to another kraal. Let it be clarified as to what this permit is for exactly. We already have to get several permits. Why add another one? It is the same with passes . Please remember that the Bantu people always hold several permits and today you are asking us to get another.

TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sit in committee. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to.

House in Committee The debate on clause 29 was resumed. MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am forced to move this amendment because I did not get a satisfactory reply from the Minister. In his reply he said the aim of the sub- section was to stop certain people from selling manure outside the Transkei. As it stands it does not give any chance to the owners of the manure to sell or give manure to people who want it in the Territories . This sub-section is clearly meant to interfere with people who have manure to sell.

MR. N. JAFTA: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I wish the hon. members across the floor would just come to reason at times . We have got to safeguard the interests of the Transkeian farmers . Manure is a very, very precious ingredient of the soil as far as . the farming community is concerned , and we would not like to see our manure being taken out of the Transkei by the White farmers . Any reasonable person will therefore understand that this is a necessary clause for the Government to step in only when such a situation has to be.... MR. GUZANA: I suggest you sit down , Mr. Chief Minister. You got out of the wrong side of your bed this morning . THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am all right. I was saying only when such a situation arises. It is not that the Government is going to stop the taking of manure from one kraal to another, but we must have a provision to stop people who will act most unreasonably. MR. NOTA: E.g.? THE CHIEF MINISTER : For example, a lot of farmers came to Qamata at one time to take the cattle manure to the Ciskei .

MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , I rise to second the amendment. All I want to stress is that it is

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are exaggerating.

MR. JAFTA: I hope you will take special note of what I say. We quite agree that the manure should not be taken out of the Transkei but let there be no permits in the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not prepared to accept the amendment on the following grounds , which have been explained by the hon . the Chief Minister, but I just want to allay the fears of the Opposition who are actually running away from their own shadow. There is no intention of a man having to get a permit to remove manure from his kraal to his land. Certain individuals have approached me with that aim in view ; and also this permit will affect people who take manure from the administrative area to somewhere outside - exploiting it, in other words. MR. GUZANA: You have an administrative area and next to you is another administrative area, and there is a boundary between two people who actually live next to each other. Are you going to ask for a permit for one to cart manure to the other when only a hundred yards separates them? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I think that will depend on the discretion of the officer concerned, but one point I want to stress is that the Department is anxious to encourage people to use the manure on their own lands instead of getting a monetary concession . Now the Department would rather the manure was used in that area where it really belongs , but otherwise there is the permit system. Some people might take it as an easy commodity to sell, to avoid the labour of spreading the manure , so I do not think there is anything to fear in this .

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , on behalf of the hon . Mr. Bubu , I wish to move this amendment. He is away this morning but might be back during the course of the day. This amendment seeks to make it possible for the owner to agree to the movement of kraal manure without the necessity of having a permit. Thus I might have two stock kraals where the manure has been stock- piled , as it were, and I have used the manure on my land and find that I have adequately manured for the season, and here is a friend next door to me in another administrative area who is without manure and I am able to spare the manure. What is sought is to enable the owner to agree so that the man next to him may benefit even though he is in another administrative area. You see, you have been thinking of co-operative societies and people in different administrative areas may belong to the co-operative and they may

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seek to share manure , exchange manure and swop, for instance, cattle manure for sheep manure or fowl manure, in order to improve agriculture in both administrative areas. That is the point , Sir.

worth area. You know that every time you require to transport manure from close by....(Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: You must go to the headman.

MR. 0.0 . MPONDO : I second the amendment. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to accept the amendment because it is a Hydra- like version of the one we have just discussed . So I would like to impress on the House the need for a permit. Co-operative or no co-operative, you must go the right way.

MR . MPONDO: The hon . the Chief Minister says we must go to the headman , but this clause does not say anything about a headman. The clause refers to the Minister in Umtata who will issue the permit. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , the powers will be delegated.

MR. MPONDO: We have been trying to COoperate and hoped to get through these clauses very quickly, but I fear we will have to go back to the division system.

MR. O.O. MPONDO: There is just one point which worries me in relation to this clause , namely that you are neighbours in different administrative areas and that you should be forced to ask for a permit to transfer manure from one neighbouring area to the other. At the moment I have already bought three loads of manure from different areas to be transported to my area. There is an area belonging to the Nqamakwe administrative area close to me, and likewise the people from Nqamakwe administrative area require manure from the Butter-

The amendment by the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota was lost by 36 votes to 59 after a division as follows:-

NOES

AYES

Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Chief Sandy S. Majeke

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jon gulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomi sa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima

Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief D.D.P. Ndamase Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Cand ulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcon golo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau

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Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The amendment by the hon . Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 33 votes to 52. Clause 29 put and agreed to by 54 votes to 35. Clause 30 and 31 put and agreed to.

On Clause 32 MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the amendment by the hon. Mr. Bubu is to the effect that after the word " necessary" it is sought to add a proviso that the residents of the conservation area concemed shall be represented on such committees or bodies by members appointed directly by such residents .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: authority composed of?

will make the people feel they are part arrangement.

of this

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I am unable to understand why the members of the Opposition seem to have no confidence in the local bodies of administration · bodies that have been instituted at the wish of the people. The tribal authorities represent the people and if they appoint a committee that committee represents the wishes of the people. If it is contended that the tribal authority consists of headmen the very headmen themselves are elected by the people. We are making a mockery of election to bring the people into an issue.... MR . GUZANA: 'Which concems them.

What is the tribal

MR . GUZANA: We are not speaking of tribal authorities. We are speaking of committees , as distinct from the tribal authorities.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : .... an issue which could be properly looked after by the authority. In framing these statutes we have to do so in accordance with the other bodies of this nature . You have never seen committees elected by the people · a committee of a council. Take the local council...

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The tribal authority appoints the committee. MR. GUZANA : And it is sought that there should be direct representation on those committees. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In what proportion?

MR. GUZANA : They are wholly elected. THE CHIEF MINISTER: They appoint their own committees . Why can the tribal authority not appoint a committee that is going to look after the interests of the people? Why are you so suspicious of the tribal authorities? The fact is that many of you on the other side do not even want to go to the chiefs .

MR. GUZANA: It does not matter what the proportion is, so long as the people are represented as a community by their own elected representatives on the committee. That is all. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The tribal authority is there to appoint the committee.

MR. GUZANA : The danger of these tribal authorities is that the people are beginning to feel that they are not being represented by people of their own choice, but that a constitutional body is now appointing people on their behalf. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Isn't the constitutional body appointed by the people?

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: In my area the residents appoint nominating members.....(Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER : The magistrates have nothing to do with it. It is the chiefs . CHIEF NDAMASE: We are aware that the people should elect a person they felt they wanted . (Interjections) These committees are elected by the people , whereas the tribal authority represents certain areas. The administration of that tribal authority has committees in the different areas which give the tribal authority an information they require. I do not see any reason why the people should not be represented on these committees .

MR. GUZANA: You know the composition of the tribal authorities . Two-thirds of the members of the tribal authority are automatic members. You know that. Don't suggest they are being elected by the people. On those committees we seek that at least

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In the first instance I must say I cannot accept the amendment. The Opposition seems to be intent on fragmentation until they can get to multi - racialism .

on the lowest local level the people should have the right to say: We want So-and- so at the meeting. It

MR . GUZANA: Are you going to introduce "apartheid" in manure? -438-

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: This has nothing to do with manure.

vice of notice or summons. I am looking at an attorney who failed to tell his follower the correct thing. What is done in the case of summonses is that you leave a copy of the form . You talk about signing what about the bulk of the Engcobo peo ple who cannot sign? Is this man going to go about with ink to make thumbprints? This amendment is surely ridiculous and at any rate one is not surprised that it comes from a man from Engcobo.

MR. GUZANA: Well, don't talk like that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Now the Opposition is forgetting that these committees will consist of people in the administrative area or the soil conservation area and , of course , the Department will rely on some information from the people concemed, but it might happen that at certain times the people recommended by the authority, or whatever people you want , might not be eligible to do the work they have to do on these committees and so the Department must step in and neutralize the committee to suit the reclamation scheme. What I am against therefore is this fragmentation of going to the people while the people have actually elected the tribal authorities . In fact the Department will not approach anybody as a body. The aim is to advise the Department on agricultural matters and matters in connection with the soil conservation scheme. As I have said, the people will be given quite a big say because there is no idea of foisting any committee on the people which is not popular. That is usual practice , even in these co-operative societies which have just been formed. Even in the regional authorities where the department has to be represented we sound opinion, so I will ask you to withdraw this amendment and have confidence for once in the Government. MR. GUZANA: Are you prepared to report how this thing works at the next session? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Oh yes , you will find it in the report , just as with any other project.

MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , if I have that assurance, because this really seeks to have the people in the picture, and in view of that assurance from the hon . Minister I think I will withdraw this on behalf of the mover. I hope our comments have been noted. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , I have noted them.

On Clause 33 MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, when I put forward this amendment I had an idea that the hon . Minister would agree with me because the amendment assists him greatly. I take it that a person is being sent to deliver a notice on a person who is being charged. It happens sometimes that he does not reach the place at all and he reports that he got to the place and a person who is wanted does not know anything about being wanted and it is taken that he is defying the notice . Sometimes he finds the owner of the kraal but finds him under the influence of liquor and he does not know he was served with a notice. In order to assist both sides the person on whom the notice is served should sign to acknowledge that he received it. There will be no complaint that the person is being convicted unfairly. We are trying to assist the Government.

MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are on your feet - you know the messenger of the court is an officer of the court and he is bound to make a true return of service. Can you guarantee that that standard of veracity will be maintained by any other officer - it may be a headman or chief? Are you extending that degree of veracity to all those people?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes , they are enlightened, and you cannot expect the chief or headman to say he served a notice when he did not serve it. MR. GUZANA: Are you speaking like this because you are a sub-chief? (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: No , I spoke like that before. I have been demoted now. Before I was a chief. (Laughter) MR . L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, in supporting I need only say that it is common practice that even in the allotment of land the magistrate gives notices of forfeiture to the headman and these never reach the people on whom they are to be served. It is for that reason that we advocate that something should be done instead of following the method that was so unsatisfactory in the past. Unfortunately in all that we say we are merely saying our words against stone walls on the opposite side . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The trouble is you are trying to transfer your brainlessness to us and we cannot accept it. MR . MAZWI: Even now the hon. the Minister of Justice has just said that all the chiefs have understanding and sympathy.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Definitely they have. MR. MAZWI : ....but he knows very well that that is not so. By that I do not mean that all of them are foolish, but not all of them have the understanding. You must remember that those people hold their positions by right of birth and not by reason of their thorough understanding of their duties. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Sit down . You are talking nonsense.

MR. MAZWI : Many of the notices served on the people through the headmen or chiefs never reach the people on whom they are served . Why don't you think about the people themselves? All you are concemed about is chieftainship . ( Interjections) You must give the people more freedom. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I will not waste time on this amendment except that I reject it.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in reply to the remarks of the hon. advocate from Engcobo, who wants to create a legal system of his own , I would say that throughout the country this is the accepted method of ser-

MR.

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GUZANA:

Mr.

Chairman ,

I would like

to comment on another provision under section 33. It has been indicated that where ordinary service , or the other prescribed forms of service do not effect notice on the occupier, then the notice will be served on the chief or headman of the area in which the land or the livestock is situated . Now I hope you see this proviso , which is on page 26. Even under sub-section (2) I think there is a similar provision. Now I would like it provided that where the headman or chief is unable to effect some service of some sort on the occupier or the resident , he should report back to the Minister. In other words , there should be a record to the effect that service has been impossible. The proviso says it shall be sufficient to serve the copy on the chief or headman. Now what I want is that the headman or chief who is unable to get the notice to the person concerned must report to that effect. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I am sure that probably the hon . member does not understand that this refers to the community and not to individual. Where the service concerns an individual it must be served by delivery of the notice. Now with respect to the community it must be done through the chief or headman .

MR. GUZANA: I concede that but.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Naturally the chief or headman will let the people know. MR. GUZANA: But the proviso says it is provided that in so far as any resident or occupier of land in a soil conservation area is concemed it shall be sufficient to serve a copy of the notice upon the chief or headman .... Does that not refer specifically to a particular resident as distinct from the community at large?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, but then the chief must pass it on. MR. GUZANA: Yes , but if he tries and is unable to serve it on the owner or occupier, I suggest that the chief should report that he is unable to serve it on that particular individual.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , that is correct. The amendment by the hon . Mr. L.Z. Majija was lost by 34 votes to 47. Clause 33 put and agreed to.

On Clause 34 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this amendment is consequential on the amendment to clause 23 (b) and it is reflected in (k ) of clause 34 (1). This amendment now seeks to delete all the words after " 23" in paragraph (k ) of clause 34 (1 ) and I move the adoption of this clause as amended.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , there is an amendment in the name of the hon . Mr. Bubu that clause 34 (1) (c) be amended by the insertion after the word "fails" of the words "without reasonable cause or excuse" . I think in the mind of the mover that he is contemplating, for instance , defective gates and it might very well be impossible sometimes to close the gate properly. He would then have reasonable cause for not closing it if that is the position, and it is not uncommon that such a situation occurs in relation to these gates. I think that is what he had in mind . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , surely I do not think the hon. mover was serious in making this amendment. I am one of the motorists too and if there are any people who are notorious for not closing gates it is the motorists. Now when we make a law it is a known fact that exceptional cases will always be considered . The law is made and it is only when a person cannot produce a reasonable cause that that person is accused. You cannot write that down . MR. GUZANA : You are giving a wrong impression . You are found technically guilty , cautioned and discharged. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , but caution and discharge does not even lead to previous convictions.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Naturally , he is bound

to.

MR. GUZANA: Well, why put it down?

MR . GUZANA: He will report that he is unable to serve the notice on the individual concemed?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We are protecting the community . I do not think the hon . Minister will agree to this .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes. MR. GUZANA: I am thinking that there may be punitive consequences on this occupier in the event of his failing to fulfil a requirement embodied in that notice . Now this will be a way of providing him with a defence, if it is needed , on record that it has been impossible to serve the thing on him or to bring the contents of the notice to his attention. For the community it is all right if it is served on the headman or chief, but suppose it is a notice going to a particular individual - it is a bit dangerous...

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman , I second the amendment.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Naturally the headman will report and no person can be charged under those circumstances .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I cannot accept this amendment. It is frivolous and to say that a man can commit a crime because it was reasonable to commit it is nonsense. If the gate is broken and the man makes all attempts to close it he cannot be charged for that, but the first thing he should do is to report it to the nearest possible officer, not wait until he is charged. So I do not see why the Opposition is making itself a righter of wrongs like Don Quixote of Spain. (Laughter) They are always harping on people who break the law, so with those few words I denounce this amendment .

MR . GUZANA: Mr. Minister , do you agree?

MR . GUZANA : It is not the law yet. This is

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do that...In Xhosa you know what we say. (Laughter) So, hon. members , leave this provision as it is. This is meant to be a maximum penalty so that it is for the magistrate now and for my hon. friend across the floor, Mr. Guzana, when he is defending the case, to so plead that the magistrate does not go as high as R200.

still a bill, so don't say we are protecting lawbreakers .

DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman , I want you to note that I am not advocating that people should jump over the fences . You know that is not legal, because this will make the fencing loose. That is (b), and in (c ) I do not advocate that people must not close the gate. I request however that under Clause 34 (2) even if a person is charged for these things and then the rather heavy fines follow, my request is that (b) and (c) be referred to the headman. If, however, the person is not satisfied by the headman's decision then they should proceed to the tribal court but the tribal court must not refer to the fines of the headman. This is not an amendment. It is merely a suggestion. The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 25 votes to 46.

MR. O.O. MPONDO: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. RAZIYA: Mr. Chairman , I fear this Bill when it imposes a fine of R200. Please think of the people. These gates are sometimes left open, (Interjections) and when we are hurrying to these meetings which they refuse to allow us to hold we forget about these gates. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , on the strength of the remarks of my colleagues, I reject the amendment . I have no intention of repeating what has already been said.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, my amendment is to amend clause 34 (2) by deleting the words " R200" and " six months" and substituting " R50" and "two months" respectively. I stand up to say we must think of the people for whom we are making these laws.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: One question , please, Mr. Chairman. Do you mean that cases of this nature will not be tried by the chiefs, because in tribal courts the maximum is R50? Do you mean that people will be taken to the magistrate for failing to close gates? This law now refers to the old times which have passed.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The lawbreakers? MR . JAFTA: They are poor people. It is true that they break the law but now to put a penalty which is so high on people who you know are poor is very hard .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I have already said that R200 is the maximum. What will stop you from fining a man up to R50? You can do that within your jurisdiction.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It is the maximum not the minimum . MR. JAFTA: I realise that it is the maximum , but the people are poor and mostly the mistakes made by these people are to jump over the fence, fail to close the gates , refuse to clean up debris caused by water, and the penalty of R200 or six months is too high, Considering the number of people who are poor we should reduce the penalty to R50 or two months.

The amendment by the hon . Mr. N. Jafta was lost by 32 votes to 54.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I would like to refer to the provisions of sub-section (3) ( a) where , on conviction , a person may be directed to remove the livestock beyond the boundaries of the Transkei. Is that not harsh in its very provisions? You have here a de-boning factory. If it is felt that a particular breed has been introduced illegally into the Transkei , can it not be sold so that the proceeds can go to the man who bought the beast and brought it in illegally? Furthermore, you say that the livestock will be declared forfeited to the State so that

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But that is the maximum penalty.. MR . JAFTA: The idea is not to encourage them to break the law but it must just be made within the means of the people. R50 is not a small amount of money for a person who has not even a penny. There is no reason to ask why he should break the law. I am requesting that this sentence be reduced. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, again and again we have told the hon . members across the floor that their aim seems to be to protect the lawbreakers as much as possible. The position is that a punishment must be such as to have a deterrent effect. I am pleased to note from the hon. member that he so dreads this provision . Let us hope that the would-be lawbreakers will dread it as much as he does , then there will be less likelihood of any type, trouble being made by such people . I have never heard any type of punishment being made for the convenience of the person to be punished. MR . GUZANA: What about the suspension of a fine?

the original owner is first punished , he is pecuniarily embarrassed in that he cannot recover the money invested in the purchase of this stock. Out of it all the Government wants to swallow everything. I think it would be fair that such stock should be sold to the meat-canning factory so that money so recovered be paid to the original owner of the beast after deductions to cover expenses have been made. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, this provision is much more lenient than the previous provisions in the other Proclamations or Acts in connection with the introduction of cattle without a permit. Formerly any stock unlawfully introduced was, after conviction of the person , forfeited to the State . There is no forfeiture here. The person is given a chance to take it back, and in any event the de-boning factory is outside the Transkei in that it is in the municipal area of Umtata, so that ....

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is always an axe hanging over someone's head. Now if you were to say to your child: My child , if you do this thing I will give you a very slight flogging - what will happen to your child? You ought to say: If you

MR. GUZANA: What province does it belong to now? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The Transkei as

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defined in the Constitution . So the person convicted can sell his stock to the de-boning factory or to the butchers , and so , as I have said, this provision is much more lenient than the previous provision where the Government, in the terms of my hon . friend, swallowed everthingy to itself. This Government is not swallowing everything to itself. It is giving the person a chance of disposing of his unlawfully introduced property . Clause 34 as amended put and agreed to by 50 votes to 33.

knowledge of it but they are capable of actually becoming aware of it.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Definitely , that is why in this sub-section (2) ( a) there is that presumption that anybody who is prosecuted under this. law will be presumed to have known the fact of these provisions. In Gardiner and Lansdowne's South African Criminal Law and Procedure where what is known as mens rea is an issue , there is a distinct provision for cases where the....

On Clause 35 MR . GUZANA: Where the State must prove . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the amendment proposed by the hon. Mr. Bubu, which I move on his behalf, is as follows : That clause 35 (2) (a) be amended by (i ) the insertion after the word "be" of the word " not" ; (ii) the substitution for the word "he " of the words " the prosecution" ; and (iii ) the deletion of the words " no" and " not" in the fifth and sixth lines of the paragraph. Mr. Chairman, I shall just speak generally on all these amendments . The provision seeks to presume the guilt of the accused and the amendments seek to shift the onus back to the prosecution . It is unfortunate that there is a growing tendency to invade the freedom of the individual by having presumptions entrenched in laws presumptions which throw the onus on the accused to establish his innocence. This tendency is a very grave one when it is taken in the broader issue, for people become criminals without an intention to become criminals because they are presumed to have committed an offence until they can establish their own innocence . Why should this be so? The old rule of law is that a man is innocent unless he is found guilty and these presumptions are driving the citizen into a corner.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is done in France. MR. GUZANA: We will not accept what is happening in France , because de Gaulle has just flown over for a confab with Kosygin in Moscow and it is causing concern to everyone except this Cabinet. (Laughter) So the amendment seeks to shift the onus back to where it belongs .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes , and where it need not prove. MR. GUZANA: Now there is no question of mens rea here , so why presume then he is guilty?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , it is presuming that he knew of these facts, not that he is guilty , in line with what I have said to the effect that when the law has been promulgated it is presumed to have come to the knowledge of everybody .

MR. GUZANA: Well, why include it here, because that is a presumption of law which is applicable and related to every law that is promulgated . Why get this man to prove now that he is innocent?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We are including it in order not to put the State in a corner. You say the people are put in a comer. Here is a lawbreaker breaking the law and putting the State into a corner and shifting the whole onus on to the State , even to proving that he knew the law. MR. GUZANA : The State can prove by producing a Gazette . That is why I say this.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We don't want that proof to be demanded from the State .

MR. GUZANA : The State is initiating it.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : To protect the wrongdoer?

MR . GUZANA: No, it is the State that initiates the prosecution and therefore it should have the onus to prove. When there are presumptions against the accused it means you are going to condone inefficiency on the part of the prosecution and inefficiency on the part of those who have to investigate the case , because all they have to say is: You now prove you have not done it. have done this

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But this is one of the things that is a presumption under the law. There is no harm in making assurance doubly sure, because people like you will demand the State to produce this proof.

MR. GUZANA: And you ran away from your practice because there was this presumption . ( Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Definitely .

That is a wrong concept altogether.

MR. N. JAFTA: I second the amendment.

MR. GUZANA: Well then , don't go and oppress the people with this law.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, there is a legal dictum which says : Ignorantia juris non excusat (that is , ignorance of the law does not excuse anybody). Now when once a law has been promulgated it is in the first instance presumed to be known by everybody.

MR. GUZANA: But once it is promulgated they are capable not only of being presumed to have -442-

The amendment by the hon . Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu was lost by 36 votes to 57 after a division as follows: -

AYES

NOES Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa Chief Dalin gozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief C. M. Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Tambekile Matanzima Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi

Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Hornabrook Bala Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. J. Dumalisile Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief H. Magadla Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief M. Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief M. Diko Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Chief M. Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

hon. Minister at the first reading of the Bill almost amended the title as I have amended it here. Seven of the eight chapters refer to soil conservation and that clearly shows that the term used should be "Soil Conservation" , unless there is some ulterior motive behind it . Under the amendment which the hon. Minister is introducing in connection with the Schedule , it is clear that according to this Bill he is including all the practices in relation to soil conservation. There is nothing much here in connection with the improvement of agriculture.

Clause 35 of the Bill put and agreed to. Clause 36 to 38 put and agreed to. On Clause 39 CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move the amendment standing in my name that the words " Agricultural Development" be deleted and substituted by the words " Soil Conservation". It is quite clear, Mr. Chairman, that the

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DR. H.P. BALA: I second , Mr. Chairman.

hon. member for Qaukeni stands up at the very tail end of this Bill to put up something ridiculous.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to accept it because it is not in accordance with the contents of the Bill. MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, my amendment seeks to make the title agree with the contents of the Bill and I think the hon . members of the Government party will agree that indeed my title is suggestive of the subject matter of the Bill. The amendment is that the short title of the Bill should be the "Transkei Agricultural Re- organisation, Stock and Poultry Limitation Act " . In so far as the word " Re-organisation " is concerned , the hon. Minister will agree that this Bill seeks to re-organise agriculture in the Transkei. In fact, it goes so far as to introduce unknown things like subsidization to the people of these Territories . That is re-organisation already. It also seeks to so educate the people as to use manure and rotate their crops . Now the question of limitation , Mr. Chairno less than five sections of this Bill deal man, with stock limitation in one way or another and it goes further than stock limitation contained in other enactments in that it brings within the ambit of these provisions such things as pigs and fowls, and the title of an Act of Parliament has got to be suggestive of the content of the legislation. I hope our Minister and the Government will not be so small-minded as to reject the amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They will be small-minded if they agree to it.

DR. BALA: Mr. Chairman.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Sit down please, hon. member. MR. L.A. LUWACA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman ... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is never a point of order on the Chairman . He has given a ruling. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have already called on the Minister. Sit down , please.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : For him to suggest an amendment to the title of the Bill is ridiculous , but this cannot be accepted. Perhaps he does not want to return home with us this afternoon because I understand his wife is working as a nurse in Durban. (Laughter) Before he entered Parliament he was supported by his wife... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Just talk to the subject, please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No, I am just pressing the point that he does not want to return home because his wife is away. So with those few words I reject the amendment with the scorn it deserves .

MR. MDA: For instance , the Minister of Justice in the Republic did concede that his 180 -day law should be called that in spite of the fact that it was so restricted in its pronouncements. Even the legal advisers will have no objection to this Bill being called the " Transkei Agricultural Re-organisation , Stock and Poultry Limitation Act" . I move accordingly.

The amendment by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was lost by 35 votes to 55 .

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I second the amendment.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move the amendment to the Schedule to the Bill:

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I am sure the hon. members of the House will not take the hon. member for Qaukeni seriously. We know him as a dramatist and he already, by implication is trying to show this side of the House what lies the Opposition are going to tell the people when they go out of this House. We know they are going to distort everything in so far as this piece of legislation is concerned. In any event the people know they are supporters of the White people in South Africa and they would not like the Government of the Transkei to fall out of Black hands. They are very sorry that this Government is today repealing so many Acts and Proclamations which were irksome to the people of the Transkei and they have a consolidated law which will be applied with all reasonableness. In any event I do not think my hon . friend is serious. He is being a dramatist and trying to appeal to the masses , so we will just treat the amendment with the contempt it deserves.

The amendment by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda was lost by 36 votes to 54. Clause 39 of the Bill put and agreed to by 56 votes to 36.

(a) by the insertion immediately after the reference to Act No. 2 of 1939 of the following: No. 45 of 1946 Soil Conservation Act, 1946 The whole. (b) by the insertion immediately after the reference to Act No. 49 of 1946 of the following:No. 6 of 1949 Soil Conservation Amendment Act, 1949 The whole. (c) by the insertion immediately after the reference to Act No. 50 of 1952 of the following: No. 37 of 1960 Soil Conservation Amendment Act, 1960 The whole. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman .

DR. BALA: Mr. Chairman.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am sorry, I must ask the hon. Minister to reply.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, as if we have not had enough nonsense , the

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this is a new thing altogether. It has been brought about by the repeal of the Soil Conservation Act of the Republic in so far as it refers to the Transkei . It was inadvertently left out.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: Today. It may be today as far as the law is concerned .

Mr. Chairman , I beg to move the following further amendment: In the Definitions , ( a) in the definition of "Department" to delete the words "in any provision of this Act" , and (b) to delete in the definition of " Government officer" the words "in any provision of this Act " . These words are regarded as being superfluous .

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Go on to rule 118. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is all, Mr. Chair-

man. MR. GUZANA: On the order paper for today we do not have the third reading and I do not see how we can have the third reading on this date when it is not on the order paper. Rule 118 provides for the the printing of the bill as amended .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : I second. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I move the adoption of the whole Bill as amended.

Agreed to.

House Resumed

THE CHIEF MINISTER: If the Assembly directs. We can make a resolution.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill , 1966, as amended , has been accepted by the committee of this House.

THE CHAIRMAN : I do not think you need waste your time on this . It is quite enough to say it is not on the order paper, so it will be tomorrow. Are you prepared, Mr. Minister, to have it tomorrow?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be now read a third time.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Yes , Mr. Chairman, tomorrow at 11 o'clock. AFTERNOON SESSION .

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, one would not mind that if the Bill had not been amended during the committee stage , but the Bill has been reported to you as amended and we would like that that Bill as amended be printed and before us before the third reading. To rush the third reading is to nullify the purpose of the third reading stage where amendments have been incorporated whilst the Bill was going through the committee stage, for during the third reading we are allowed to comment on the Bill in so far as there have been amendments , so that we must be given an opportunity to see the Bill complete, as amended .

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. SUSPENSION OF PROCLAMATION R.400. The debate was resumed .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: When will you see it? MR. GUZANA: As it is before us we have a disjointed Bill with several amendments which are not wholly before us now, when you seek to have the third reading this afternoon. I hope in our hurry we are not going to defeat the purpose of the third reading which is significant where there have been amendments . THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no such provision in the rules of this House that be fore the third reading of a bill is made by the responsible Minister the bill itself as amended should be tabled before the House. In any event, Sir, at no time during the history of this Assembly have we had to table a bill after it has been amended at the committee stage before the House, before the third reading of that bill is made. The remarks of the Leader of the Opposition are merely intended to stifle the closing....

MR. GUZANA : Don't go off the rails now, because if I come back on you, you will be sorry. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You will not come back on me. He is merely making these remarks to delay the closing of the Assembly. The law is clear on the point. Rule 117 says that the Chairman shall thereupon ask the Minister or member in charge of the bill on what date the third reading is to be taken in order thatthe third reading be taken on the appointed day or any other suitable day. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: What day?

MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are now on my motion which sought the suspension forthwith of the notorious Proclamation 400. The motion was debated by both sides of the House and as the mover of the motion I am now called upon to reply to the debate, which I am happy to do this afternoon . Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I listened very carefully to both Government and Opposition members who took part in the debate on this motion. I very warmly commend the three members of my party who maintained the high standard of debate and refused to have it dragged into the low, stinking quagmire of political debate , as the members of the Government side attempted to do. It is most unfortunate , Mr. Chairman, and a fact to be deplored , that this House has had an old, grey-headed man of the character of Mr. Sihele moving an amendment to the motion. All that he said , Mr. Chairman , is not worthy to be repeated by any sane member of this House who is desirous of upholding his or her dignity, or the dignity of this House . I shall therefore treat his foolish remarks with all the contempt they deserve. Mr. Chairman, when I was moving my motion I quoted subsection 12 (1) ( a) and (b) of this Proclamation. I drew the attention of the House to the dictatorial powers which have been given to the chiefs. According to this section a chief can banish a Native without prior notice , or demolish his home. Mr. Chairman , one gets the impression that the man who drew up this part of the Proclamation does not consider the Black man as a normal human-being with normal aspirations. While the Africans in the Republic, including those in the Transkei , were harassed beyond endurance by existing unsavoury measures on the statute book, such as the pass laws, influx control , job reservation and all sorts of restrictions on freedom , more injury has been inflicted on the already aching sores of the Transkei African by the maintenance of this Proclamation 400 for the last six years .

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OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame ! MR . MPONDO : What the members of the Government side say is the reason for the maintenance of this proclamation for the last six years in the Transkei the hon. Mr. C.K. Madikizela said the Proclamation is retained to protect the chiefs . He quoted murders that were committed during the six years this Proclamation was in operation . Mr. Madikizela's ignorance of the law tells him that Proclamation 400 and not the common law of the country is responsible for the maintenance of law and order in the country. He further disgracefully exhibited his ignorance in this House by saying that Mr. Mda's plough, which was stolen during the disturbances in Eastern Pondoland , was recovered because of the application of this Proclamation. In his story of the windmill and the crows he concluded by saying that the windmill does not go to the crows - it is the crows that go to the windmill, but I want to tell him that the windmill does go to the crows . We have just seen one Mr. Dunne , a secret police agent, going all the way from Pretoria with a view to leading innocent Transkeians into a trap. It may be that this was done through your instigation..... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I am glad to know that is the attitude of the D.P.

tion,

MR. MPONDO: .... in order to eliminate opposias some of the Government members have

already said. Mr. G.M.M. Matanzima, who comes from Emigrant Tembuland .... GOVERNMENT Chief...

MEMBERS :

The

honourable

MR . MPONDO: I am sorry, Mr. Chairman , The hon. Mr. G.M.M. Matanzima has never been introduced to me as a chief. He comes from Emigrant Tembuland a region where his despotic brother, Chief K.D. Matanzima, rules his people with an iron hand; a region where everyone is under a reign of terror ; a region where poor , helpless people are beaten up by men like the hon . Mr. Sihele. (Laughter)

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , don't you know how to address members in this House? MR. MPONDO: I did say the hon. Mr. Sihele. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I rise on a point of order. The hon . Mr. Sihele has never assaulted anyone. (Interjections ) MR. MPONDO : A region where poor people find their homes and belongings reduced to ashes as a result of the cruel actions of the despot who is their chief.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Is that why you want to kill him?

Grahamstown - a case that is still in the hands of the courts of the country. This hon. member seems to have no respect for the laws of the country. It is no wonder that he was struck offthe roll of attorneys . (Interjections) What is said about the case will be treated with all the contempt it deserves by this side of the House. Members who spoke on the Govemment side quoted names of chiefs and people who had been murdered from 1960 to the present day, while this state of emergency was in force. My question is: Why were these people murdered if the intention of the Proclamation is to prevent these murders? (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MPONDO : I once more repeat my previous that as long as there is no freedom of warning expression or of assembly for the people or a country the citizens of such country will be driven to desperate deeds. There are some chiefs , especially the Chief Minister and his brother... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Honourable....

MR. MPONDO : ... especially the hon. the Chief Minister and his brother, who seem to like to sup. press the views of other people. That is why they support the retention of a proclamation which aims at silencing opposition to their policy of separate development. The Republican Government retains this devilish Proclamation, as I said a few weeks ago, with a view to silencing opposition to their stinking separate development policy so that the outside world can be bamboozled into believing all is well in the Transkei . That is why such peaceful and law-abiding citizens as the hon. Mr. K.M.N. Guzana were refused permits to go to the United a terrible blot on the Broederbond South States African Republic. This week we have had other shocking news which has further disgraced the the refusal Verwoerdian Republican Government to grant a permit to Bishop Zulu who was to go to Geneva purely on church matters , and yet White South Africans profess that their Government is based on Christian principles . (Interjections ) What do the good boys of the Broederbond Goverment of South Africa say about these things? I am referring to the hon. Chief Kaizer Matanzima and his henchmen . They said nothing when men like Mr. Oldjohn were refused permits to go and study overseas. They were quiet on the Guzana affair, but they call themselves the Government of the Transkei. And what a Govemment! Thank you , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the question.

THE SECRETARY : The question is a motion by the hon. Mr. O.O. Mpondo, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. E.G. Sihele. I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the motion.

MR . MPONDO: Sir, the hon . Mr. G.M.M. Matanzima said the Proclamation does not give more powers to the chiefs than those they had before their powers were destroyed by the White man. The chiefs had the right to banish their subjects . He went further to quote the proceedings of a case in

The words "the Government should consider the advisability of suspending forthwith the notorious Proclamation R.400 of 1960" were omitted by 55 votes to 36 after a division as follows:-

AYES

NOES

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ndlelalula Vulumhlaba Mrazuli

Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitembile Mgudlwa -446-

Acting Chief Z. Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzan a Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula Chief Sandy S. Majeke Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Dr. Pakamile Homabrook Bala

Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Charles Manzodidi Ludidi Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George Mzimvubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle

Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Mr. Orlando Ogilvie Mpondo Mr. Leonard Temba Mazwi Mr. Ndabankulu Joel Busakwe Mr. Jekem Richard Malgas Mr. Paulos Mqikela Mr. Bunga Enock Mhlahlo Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Paramount Chief Victor Poto

Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chief Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Goodman Mnyango Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi

Chief Tutor Nyangi lizwe Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Clifford Madlavan Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata Mr. Gordon Dana Mr. Cromwell Diko Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Sizakele Caledon Mda Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. Z. Chemane

Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Majeoa Lebenya Chief Frank Zibi Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mbungwe Langasiki Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle Sigcau Chief Makosonke Sigcau

Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief M. Diko Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshun gu Tellers: 1. J. Ntola 2. C.S. Mda

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment, confirmed.

The amendment by the hon . Mr. E.G. Sihele for the substitution of the words " Proclama tion No. R.400 safeguards the internal security and the

ANNOUNCEMENT.

peaceful administration of the Transkei and should be retained" was carried by 47 votes to 34. The motion as amended was carried by 48 votes to 34.

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to announce that after the closing the members should remain in the hall so that they can be paid their allowances.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 24th June, 1966 .

TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL THIRD READING.

FRIDAY, 24TH JUNE, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move the third reading of the Transkei Agricultural Development Bill, 1966, copies of which have been tabled in the three -447-

official languages . I have also got my copy so if any of you want to make reference to it you can get it from me. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I may say that this Bill has had quite a rough passage, but it has come out on the other side whole, I think. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : With your co-operation.

22

MR. GUZANA: It is hoped by this side of the House that this far- reaching and very important Bill which will now become an Act will be administered in the most diplomatic manner possible. We know quite clearly the reaction of the people of the Transkei to anything that touches their land and and their stock, and that reaction can only be overcome by a very sympathetic Government which will try to win the people over to its side. We welcome the provisions which require constant consultation with the people and I think the Government has leaned over by even providing for objections to be lodged with the Department. These are very healthy provisions and we hope they will be used time and again to overcome resistance to a Bill which seeks to lay the foundations of an agricultur al economy in the Transkei . If the hon. the Minister of Agriculture was annoyed and embarrassed by the many amendments , there is this to say about it - that it has given his bill great publicity in the Transkei , and if there is any good that is going to come out of that the Govemment will find that the people of the Transkei have had their minds prepared for the gospel of the soil , the gospel of the crop, the gospel of stock, the gospel of poultry. (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : Will the hon . member try to be brief, please. MR. GUZANA: We also welcome the new principle of the Bill whereby subsidies and loans can be made available to the Transkei farmers . The Chairman has told me to be brief so I had better sit down before he orders me to sit. The Bill was read a third time.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE ASSEMBLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members of the House, before moving the adjournment of this session I want to place on record the Government's esteemed appreciation of the manner , Sir, in which you have conducted the deliberations of this Assembly . I think all of us here have noted with great pleasure that the trip you took to Cape Town in order to observe the session of the House of Assembly in the Republican Government gave you a great deal of experience and was of educative value in regard to the conduct of the sessions of our own Assembly. I am sure that even the Opposition , although at times they might have thought you were taking sides , will express the same views which this side of the House have about the impartial manner in which you have ruled on several occasions when there was a tug-of-war between this side of the House and the Opposition. The same sentiments apply equally to the Deputy Chairman . Secondly, I wish to pay tribute -448-

to the most humorous figure within the walls of this building- that is, the Sergeant-at-Arms. I am sure that I am expressing the views of all the members of this House when I say there could be no better personality who could display more knowledge of a man who had been in the army before. Although at times it appeared most embarrassing when he stood in front of a lady and at the top of his voice shouted "Order!", I think the whole House enjoyed the manner in which he conducted his duties . Thirdly, Sir, the thanks of this Assembly go to our stenographer, Mrs. Muggleston . At times when there were very noisy interjections from both sides of the House one would think that Mrs. Muggleston would become annoyed when she could not hear what the speaker was saying, but at all these family disturbances she just treated them with a smile . We hope her services will continue to be retained by this Government. Fourthly, Sir, it is also my duty and pleasant task to convey the thanks and appreciation of this Assembly to the senior officials of the Government of the Transkei who includes the seconded officials of the Republic of South Africa, and also those junior officials who are working under them. I wonder if the public appreciate and realise the amount of work which these officials have to undertake, particularly during the sessions of this Assembly. We as a Government feel that without them we would not be in a position to face many of the requirements which usually come from the Opposition benches . I refer to the questions which they usually put to the various Departments of the Governme nt. As political figures we are not in a position to investigate matters which are outside our scope of service, but these officials will go all out and even investigate matters which to us appear foolish and ridiculous , and as a result we are in a position to reply, at times very reluctantly , even to the most stupid questions. (Laughter) We thank them very much for their patience and the service which they have so dedicatedly given to this Government. We are aware that much of their time after office hours is taken up with these matters , but with great zeal and tireless effort they try by all means to give satisfaction to the requirements of what we call today a Government which has come into permanent existence. Mr. Chairman, I would be failing in my duty if I did not thank the men who have been loaded with the most arduous task of conveying the feelings of a speaker from one language to another. I refer, Sir, to the interpreters. Some of these men are not the servants of the Transkei Government but they have dedicated themselves to a cause which requires patience and sober habits. I am sure that this House is very much appreciative of the services that these gentlemen have rendered . We also thank the messengers who have been trotting about, sometimes sent right into town against the rules of this House, to go and fetch tobacco for the smokers . We would request also the Secretary of the Assembly to convey our thanks to the Press that does all the printing of this Assembly - namely, Elata. At this juncture I cannot forget to mention some of the men who render very useful service in order to see that the deliberations of this Assembly are expedited . I refer to the translators · that is, the people who translate all bills from English into Afrikaans and Xhosa. I am sure that all of us here realise the task which these men have to undertake and we are highly appreciative of the manner in which they are able to carry out these services. Lastly, I come to to my hon. friends across the floor , the members of the Opposition . We as a Government have appreciated very much to notice that from a drunken collection

of agitators that we had in 1964, we now have a little sober group of men who are becoming more and more reasonable. ( Laughter) There has been a very cordial spirit permeating right through the halls of this Assembly. I personally attribute all that to the grey-headed Paramount Chief who has been the founder of this Government. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I shudder to think what would be happening if, by misfortune , he was not present among those benches , and I am sure that I am expressing the views of my colleagues on this side of the House when I say that we have highly appreciated the manner in which you have constructively criticized the Govemment in the handling of the affairs of the people of the Transkei . Probably Proclamation 400 must have sobered you down. (Laughter) I hope the people of the Tran skei will appreciate what Proclamation 400 has done during the last three years . I particularly thank my colleague, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , for the fine spirit which has existed between us . Knowing him as I do, at times I made an announcement in this House that I had consulted the Leader of the Opposition when actually I had not , (Laughter) and fortunately, as my fellow student at Lovedale and Fort Hare , he did not embarrass me by saying he was not prepared to associate himself with what I had said. I do not know whether it is because of the indication that I gave to this House the other day by way of interjection of the relationships which might take place between us . (Laughter) In all democratic Governments there must be an Opposition in order to have a lively Parliament.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to assure the hon. members across the floor that they will not be eliminated because this House wants to have a one-party system of government. Their own policy will be a boomerang in 1968 and will eliminate them from this House. (Laughter) I also thank the Secretaries of this House for the fine performance they have made right through the session . I refer to the two gentlemen , Mr. Makohlise and Mr. Finiza. It is needless for me to refer to the inspiration some of the Government members who look across at the galleries have received, because we are the only people who are fortunate enough to display our knowledge because we actually face the galleries , but I wonder what the onlookers think of these people who are giving them their backs ! (Laughter) Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

-449-

7

the road rather tentatively in the early sessions but we feel now we are settling down into the road of democracy which is sought to be the rule in the Transkei. That has been due largely to the very benevolent attitude of the officials and to their willingness to assist the Opposition in all matters that we have brought to them. We must also thank the Government party for bringing in legislation and bringing in the targert at which we practise shooting, (Laughter) and whilst at the beginning we got the impression that they were intolerant of criticism we rise from this Assembly with the knowledge that they are becoming mellower in their attitude towards the Opposition. I want to give the hon. the Chief Minister a pat on the back for his very magnanimous statement tothe effect that an Opposition is essential if we are going to have a democratic Government. Yes, Sir, you have enjoyed the gallery very much and usually all Assemblies bring out the best hats and the most peculiar hats to the galleries, and all the beautiful ladies come and they are your diversion. You see, we have not had that interruption and we have concentrated on the business. (Laughter) We say "Thank you" for everything · for good relationships , for co-operative work and for things done for the people for whom we all legislate . If the Opposition has been very vocal in their criticism it is because they are a live Opposition. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House now adjourns until 1967. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : I second, Mr. Chairman. The Assembly adjoumed after singing "Nkosi Sikelel'i-Afrika " and "Morena Bolaka Sechaba sa Hesu " .

MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, in Wales there is a station which has a 26 - lettered name and at each end of the station there is a porter who announces the name

777

of the station as the train pulls in. Obviously those porters had been at the job for a long time to be able to spit out this jaw- breaker of 26 letters, and so when one of them fell ill one night and had a substitute, a bit of a problem arose as to the naming of the station when the train pulled in. The train inexorably whistled to enter the station and the old hand at the one end called out the name loud and clear, and the substitute stood silent for a while and then, to solve his problem, he shouted: " Same this end, Same this end!" (Laughter) I feel in the position of that substitute porter and I feel I must say: "Same this end!" to the thanks extended to all for the services rendered to this Assembly. It is one of the things that have grown up with this Assembly that the Opposition has come to realise that it is recognised and it is therefore with the same deep sense of thanks that we associate ourselves with the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister when he thanks the officials and seconded officials. We were treading

Transkei Legislative Assembly

REPORT

OF THE

Sessional

Committee

ON

Public

Accounts

1966

-450-

RULE 147(b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

General (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) and Mr. N.N. Maholwana, Secretary to the Committee..

As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof;-

The Secretary read Rule 147(b) of the Rules ofProcedure ofthe Transkeian Legislative Assembly and the Chief Minister's announcements constituting the Committee and referring matters to the Committee.

(b) On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure. When the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee.

The Chairman welcomed members and officials and expressed his appreciation for the cordial relationship that prevailed during the previous two Sessions and the hope that the present Session will be as fruitfully conducted in the same spirit. On the motion of the Chairman,

ANNOUNCEMENT. Resolved That the evidence given before the Committee be recorded verbatim in so far as it is practicable to do so.

21st April, 1966 : That the following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts : -

The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1964-65.

Mr. R. Msengana (Chairman), Mr. M.H. Canca , Mr. J.M. Sineke, Mr. K.G. Nota and Mr. T.H. Bubu .

Matters referred to the Committee.

Mr. J.J. Muller (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) were examined.

22nd April, 1966 : Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Inferior Adminis-

The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.25 a.m. until Tuesday, 17th May , at 9 a.m.

trative Bodies in the Transkei for the financial year 1964-65 tabled. Referred to the Committee in terms of Rule 147(b).

Tuesday, 17th May , 1966 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT.

REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1966.

Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca, J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu.

Your Committee , having considered and examined the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Inferior Administrative Bodies in the Transkei for the financial year 1964-65 referred to it , and having taken evidence, which it submits herewith, begs to report that it has no observations to make upon them .

The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1964-65. Mr. J.J. Muller (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) further examined and Messrs. J.H.T. Mills , K.A. Faure , Secretary and Assistant Secretary for Finance respectively and G.J. Oliver, Interdepartmental Accountant were examined.

(Signed.) R. MSENGANA . CHAIRMAN .

The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.50 a.m. until Tuesday , 24th May, at 9 a.m.

Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, Umtata. 26th May, 1966 .

Tuesday, 24th May , 1966 ( at 9 a.m. )

PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE.

PRESENT .

PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS, appointed in terms of Rule 147(b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee consisting of Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca, J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu .

Messrs . R. Msen gana (Chairman) , M. Canca, J.M. Sineke, K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu . The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1964-65.

Thursday, 12th May, 1966 (at 9 a.m.). Mr. J.J. Muller further examined and Messrs. S.W. Pienaar, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and G.J. Olivier, Interdepartmental Accountant were examined.

PRESENT . Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca , J.M. Sineke, K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu. Officials in attendance : Mr. J.J. Muller, Senior Auditor, representing the Controller and Auditor-

-451-

The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 9.40 a.m. until Thursday, 26th May, at 9 a.m.

Thursday, 26th May, 1966 ( at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT . Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca, J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu.

The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1964-65 .

Mr. J.J. Muller (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) further examined , and Messrs. W. Grabe , Secretary for Roads and Works and G.J. Olivier, Interdepartmental Accountant were examined.

that there was a slight improvement in the staff position; in addition to the six posts on the authorised establishment of my Department, allocated to the audit of the accounts of the Transkeian Government, authority now exists for fourteen Transkeian clerks on the fixed establishment of the Transkeian Departments of the Chief Minister and Finance and seconded to my department for an indefinite period, only one of these posts not being filled at present. Tuesday, 17th May, 1966 (at 9 a.m.) PRESENT . Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman ) , M. Canca , J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu.

The Committee deliberated . The Chairman submitted a draft Resolution on the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. , of the Transkei for 1964-65 referred , which was considered and adopted. On the Motion of Mr. Nota.

Mr. J.J. Muller, further examined Messrs . J.H.T. Mills , K.A. Faure , Secretary and Assistant Secretary for Finance respectively and G.J. Olivier, Interdepartmental Accountant examined. REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER AND AUDITOR-GENERAL ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS ETC. , 1964-65 (continued). Standing Statutory Appropriation (paragraph 5, page 2).

Resolved : That the Chairman report the Resolution adopted by the Committee. The Committee deliberated and at 9.50 a.m. adjourned sine die.

3. Chairman . ) Mr. Mills , can you please inform the Committee of the latest developments in this connection? · (Mr. Mills . ) Mr. Chairman , in this

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Thursday, 12th May, 1966. PRESENT . Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca , J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu. Mr. J.J. Muller, Senior Auditor, representing the Controller and Auditor-General (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) examined . Audit Inspections (paragraph 8( 1) , page 3) .

regard , as the Committee can see , we took all possible steps to rectify this matter by introducing section 56( 1) of Act No. 4 of 1965. The matter can actually be put right permanently only by amending the Transkei Constitution Act to provide for monies accruing to the Tribal Authorities to go direct to them and not to the Transkeian Revenue Fund . We drew up the necessary amendment and asked the Republican Government to amend the Constitution Act accordingly. As members know, the first sitting of the Republican Parliament was short. We were promised that the matter would be dealt with during the next Session of Parliament which is scheduled for the 29th July , 1966. We can , therefore, do nothing further as this is actually a matter for the Republican Government.

1. Chairman . ) Mr. Muller , I observe from this paragraph that due to the lack of audit experience of the Transkeian officials seconded to your department, the two tutor Auditors , on itinerant inspection duties were recalled, in order to assist with audit examinations and the compilation of the annual report at Umtata and would only resume inspections early in 1966. (a ) Were the inspections resumed and (b) will it again be necessary to recall them this year? (Mr. Muller. ) (a) Yes , the inspections were resumed during the beginning of March this year and steady progress is being made. (b) Due to the improvement in the staff position in my office it may not be necessary to recall the itinerant inspectors to assist with audit examinations , but it may , nevertheless , be imperative to require their assistance, for a while , with the compilation of the annual report, which is normal office procedure. Audit Staff (paragraph 22, page 9) . 2. Chairman . ) Mr. Muller, could you perhaps enlighten the Committee on your present staff position? (Mr. Muller. ) I wish to inform the Committee

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Temporary Investments of Exchequer Balances (paragraph 12, page 4). 4. Chairman. ) Mr. Mills , kindly inform the Committee on what basis these investments were made , what was the average rate of interest realised and why was it not possible to invest it more permanently which would obviously have realised a higher rate of interest? - (Mr. Mills. ) With the concurrence of the Committee I shall ask Mr. Olivier to reply. (Mr. Olivier. ) During the first part ofthe financial year a considerable amount accumulated in the Exchequer account. At that stage it was impossible to estimate whether expenditure would increase or not during the latter part of the financial year and it was accordingly decided to invest part of these balances on 30 days call to have it readily available if required. The rates of interest varied from 2.90% during September, 1964, to 4.25% in March, 1965. Total interest earned on these investments amounted to R52,505. Excess

of Revenue

over Expenditure could

only be determined during the latter part of the financial year otherwise surplusses could have been more advantageously invested. Disestablishment of the Transkeian Territorial Authority - Disposal of Funds - Land Betterment , Fund (paragraph 16(3) (c), page 6).

5. Mr. Nota.) Mr. Mills , why was it necessary to refund the balance of R38,435.84 to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development? (Mr. Mills. ) Mr. Olivier will reply . - (Mr. Olivier.) The South African Bantu Trust made an annual grant available to the ex Tra nskeian Territorial Authority for the purpose of fencing in the Transkei on condition that expenditure should not exceed R50 per mile of fence erected and that any unexpended balances should be refunded. As the functions of fencing were taken over by the Transkei an Government with effect from the 1st April, 1964, the balance standing to the credit of this fund viz. R38,435.84 was refunded to the South African Bantu Trust. Defective Staff Records and Salary Sheets (paragraph 20, page 8) . 6. Chairman. ) Mr. Olivier, will you please inform the Committee what steps have been taken to put this matter on a sound footing? · (Mr. Olivier. ) (a) Salary and Wages Sheets. Instructions regarding the payment of Salaries, Wages and Allowances are contained in my Circular No. 8 of 1964. The main defects on wage sheets are to the effect that certain provisions of Treasury Circular No. 1 of 1961 are not being complied with by district offices . Instructions have on various occasions been issued stressing the importance of these provisions which were for the benefit of district offices incorporated in my Identical Minute No. 21 of 1965 dated 7.12.1965 . I wish to state that the position has greatly improved. (b) Defective Staff Records . The accounts branch in conjunction with the Staff branches of the various Departments in the Transkei have for the past three months undertaken the onerous task of comparing salary and staff records of all officers occupying prescribed posts . This task has not yet been completed. As far as discrepancies regarding officers paid through district offices are concerned it is expected to furnish detailed replies to queries in the near future .

Community and Tribal Authorities (paragraph 21, page 8). 7. Chairman. ) Having regard to the Treasury reply to Resolution No. 1 of 1965, discussion on this falls away . Summary of Revenue Services (page 12) . 8. Chairman . ) Mr. Mills, it is observed from this summary that out of a total of R15,510,000 appropriated by the Legislative Assembly for Revenue Services for the year, expenditure only totalled R12,465,363.11, leaving an unexpended balance of R3,044,636,89, to be surrendered , representing approximately 20% of the appropriation. With due regard to the reply furnished to the question why it was not possible to invest a portion of the cash

balances in the Exchequer Account more permanently and thus at a higher rate of interest, it would seem that excess Legislative Assembly provision is detrimental to the Government's finances . The Committee realises that an accounting officer is faced with practical difficulties in making an accurate forecast of his department's requirements when the Estimates are prepared, especially for the first year the Transkeian Government became self-accounting, but considers it of cardinal importance that the amount to be provided each year should be as closely estimated as possible. Mr. Mills , can you please inform the Committee whether consideration has been, or will be given to the introduction of strict budgetary control measures and what steps have been or will be taken to attain this object. · (Mr. Mills. ) In the first year of the Administration we were faced with difficulties in budgeting without previous reference. There was nothing to guide us. We issue a directive every year when Departments have to budget. In these circulars we stress the importance of correct budgeting. In the first circular issued in this regard we said "Basis for framing estimates . For the guidance of accounting officers it must be emphasised that their estimates of expenditure for 1964/65 should be framed on the basis of providing for the continuation of all existing services as well as the normal expansion thereof. Although the Treasury wishes to stress the need for economising and for the engendering of a sound sense of financial responsibility departments should nevertheless not curtail any activities , the curtailment of which would be detrimental to the people of the Transkei or the sound administration of the Territory. It should therefore be the aim to implement planned projects such as the five year development plan for the Transkei to the full. Responsible and sound yet progressive budgeting coupled with effective financial control should be the aim of all Accounting Officers ." Again in our circular the second year we drew attention to the overestimation the previous year. A letter which followed pointed out the unspent surplusses. We wanted to know what the reasons were. I quote from the second circular "Accounting officers carry a heavy responsibility in regard to the accuracy of their estimates of revenue and expenditure particularly in respect of their Revised Estimates which are used when the Budget proposals for the next financial year are in course of preparation. Steps should accordingly be taken to draft estimates as accurately as possible. Any substantial over- or underestimate for which there is no good reason will be viewed in a serious light." We followed up with letters. We have taken all possible steps to correct estimates .

Revenue Vote 1 · Chief Minister and

Finance :

Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund (paragraph 1, page 12 read with paragraphs 1 - 3 page 26 and particularly statement No. 7, page 35) . 9. Chairman. ) Mr. Mills, it is observed from Statement No. 7 which bares the fact that the amount of R1,000,000, voted by the Legislative Assembly under sub-head L of this Vote , was duly accounted for in the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund established to give effect to the provisions of of Act No. 3 of 1964 , that expen diture totalling R1,041.02 was incurred on an investigation of a Sugar Industry in the Transkei. Can you kindly -453-

inform the Committee whether the investigation has (Mr. been concluded and of the findings thereof? Mills. ) I can just say that in terms of the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund Act, a report must be tabled each year in the Legislative Assembly about the administration of the fund. Normally, if the cabinet authorises expenditure from the fund for a particular Department, the responsibility for the report rests with that Department. Annually, when we lay this before the House, we get a report as to whatever monies have been given to that Department for expenditure. The report is at present being prepared and will be tabled within the next week.

tain technical difficulties . The treating plant could not work to capacity and this was essential in order to supply the demand. At a difference in price of .7c per gallon it was found justifiable to order from the only other firm that could supply at the time, in order to keep the production up.

Radio Equipment for Fire Protection purposes R7,925 . (a) The supplying firm offered sets specially designed for Transkei conditions . (b) The type of set was tested and pas sed by the Department of Postal Affairs .

Tuesday, 24th May , 1966 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT . Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman), M. Canca , J.M. Sineke , K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu. Mr. J.J. Muller, further examined , Messrs . S.W. Pienaar, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and G.J. Olivier, Interdepartmental Accountant examined. REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER. AND AUDITOR- GENERAL ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS ETC. , 1964-65 (continued).

Exemptions and Departures from Normal Tender Procedure (paragraph 9, page 3 - 4). 10. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar, can you please explain to the Committee why it was necessary to depart from normal tender procedure in these instances affecting your department? - (Mr. Pienaar. ) Purchase of Tea Seed - R2,683 : -

Only 2 sources were available as far as could be ascertained viz. the Congo and Mocambique. Other sources would have been quite impracticable because of distance and time of delivery. Furthermore , there were the following determining factors : (a) The right variety and a sufficient quantity had to be available (b) The supply had to be assured. (c) Quick delivery was essential and delivery had to be regular. (d) The price had to be reasonable. The Congo supplies could be obtained through an agent but there could be no control of type of seed guarranteed and regular supply, there was no telling how long the seed would be in transit or when the supply would be cut off completely.

Madal Tea Estates in known to the Department of Services in the Republic. satisfy all the requirements at 10-15c per lb. cheaper.

Mocambique are well Agriculture Technical These estates could and could also supply

There was also a need to obtain the seed as soon as possible for proper co-ordination of the work. There was , therefore , no point in calling for tenders .

(c) As it was the same type of set used by others in the Transkei ; spares were readily available. (d) A servicing mechanic is available in Umtata being placed here by the firm so that servicing and maintenance would be cheaper and more readily effected. Logmill Resaws - R8,889: It was found advisable to by Jansen and Dahl C.230 resaw because it has been thoroughly tested and is being used by the Forestry Department of the Republic. It was, therefore, in the interest of the Government to buy a well proven machine. Furthermore , there was only one machine in the country at the time and the Department was only allowed a first refusal of one week. If the offer had not been utilized it would have taken many more months to call for tenders and have a machine imported and the financial year was already well advanced . The position is that the Department complies with Tender Board regulations whenever practicable and has no wish to evade it unnecessarily. Occasions do arise , however, which cannot be foreseen, where it would be in the interest of the Government to dispense with the calling of tenders and only in these very special cases, which are thoroughly motivated in all cases , the Tender Board is asked exemption from normal procedures . Govemment sawmills and Preservation Installations Manufacturing Statements (paragraph 18 , page 6 and 7). 11. Chairman . ) Mr. Pienaar, what are the latest developments in this connection? - (Mr. Pienaar. ) Treasury authority was obtained on the 28th December, 1965 to proceed on the lines indicated in the Report and the following steps were taken to remedy the position:-

(a) Layout of all Stack Yards improved and stacks numbered and standardised according to dimensions. (b) Timber Stores completely re- organised to facilitate control and stocktaking.

(c) Measures

to ensure strict control of timber

issues and receipts were introduced e.g. regular inspections and checking of monthly returns.

Purchase of Creosote - R2,988 : -

The Department of Agriculture and Forestry participated in a contract arranged by the Department of Forestry of the Republic. The firm could not supply our full requirements as a result of cer-

(d) Complete stock was taken of timber on hand by two Senior Officials during January to March, 1966 . 2. In -454-

addition the

following is envisaged:-

Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman ), M. Canca, J.M. Sineke, K.G. Nota and T.H. Bubu.

(i) Creation oftwo clerical posts solely for Timber Stock Control. (ii) Continuous stocktaking by the referred to in 2(i) above.

Mr. J.J. Muller (accompanied by Mr. P.F. Coetzee) further examined , Messrs. W. Grabe, Secretary for Roads and Works and G.J. Olivier, Interdepartmental Accountant examined.

units

(iii) Calculation of monthly recovery figures for all logmills .

REPORT OF THE CONTROLLER.AND AUDITOR- GENERAL ON THE APPROPRIATION ACCOUNTS ETC. , 1964-65 (continued).

(iv) Local manufacture of three Timber Yard Stackers to facilitate stacking,

Government Stores - Standard Stock Stores and Equipment (paragraph 10(1) , page 4) .

It is confidently expected that the steps taken and those envisaged will enable this Department to submit the statements required in terms of Financial Regulation No. 97 as from 1965-66 onwards.

14. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe, can you please inform the Committee of the latest developments in this connection? (Mr. Grabe. ) After consultation

Revenue Vote 5 - Agriculture and Forestry (paragraphs 2 and 3 , page 17 read with explanation of the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote, Sub-head J. page 18).

and correspondence with the Department of Finance, methods of procedure were evolved on all points of disagreement which satisfied the Department of Finance and also the Controller and Auditor-General . Approval to operate on the agreed lines was obtained at the beginning of the Financial year 1966/67 and the stores organisation now functions on these approved lines.

12. Chairman. ) Mr. Pienaar, it is observed that in respect of the amount of R750,000 expended on the building of the Lubisi Dam by the Republican Department of Water Affairs , at the Qamata Irrigation Scheme , no provision was made in the Estimates, owing to a misunderstanding. What gave rise to the misunderstand in g? (Mr. Pienaar.) There was a general misunderstanding also with officials of Bantu Administration in Pretoria and at the time it was accepted that as the project was already in an advanced stage , the Department of Bantu Administration and Development would be responsible for its completion . The matter was only brought to the surface when the Department of Water Affairs claimed R750,000 from the Transkeian Govemment. 13. Chairman. ) Is it, therefore, a fact that had this payment not been made , the excess provision in relation to ultimate expenditure, referred to in paragraph 3 , would have been much higher - in fact 30%. - (Mr. Pienaar. ) It is a fact that had the payment of R750,000 not been made to Water Affairs , the excess provision would have been much higher for this Vote. Various reasons could be advanced e.g.

(a) No previous experience had been had with the new organisation .

(b) Bantu Administration and Development had supplied one experienced person for the whole project of the irrigation scheme; he arrived at a very late stage. (c) It was then found extremely difficult to recruit staff for training and is a problem to this day.

(d) Dam building and Soil conservation staff had to be used temporarily on the irrigation scheme which disrupted those services so that that work also suffered . (e) Delivery delayed.

of

equipment

and

machines were

(f) In short it was impossible to get the organisation to function effectively in good time.

15. Chairman. ) It is reported here that the value of the stores on hand at 31st March , 1965 , was R21,499 and the balance of capital R43,501. Mr. Grabe, can you please advise the Committee why the balance of capital was so large? · (Mr. Grabe. ) The Capital Surplus of R43,501 is accounted for by the fact that the figure quoting the value of stores on hand on 31st March, 1965, as R21,499 does not include the value of stock found in the store formerly belonging to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and the Republican Department of Forestry. This stock has not yet formally been handed over to the Transkeian Govemment. It is expected that this may occur during 1966/67, in which case the stores in charge of this department will amount to R63,000, approximately. Construction, Maintenance and Repair of District Roads and Payment of Debts incurred by Regional Authorities in Previous Financial Year (paragraph 19, pages 7 and 8). 16. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe , please enlighten the Committee on the present state of affairs. · (Mr. Grabe. ) The continued operation of the relevant section of Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 was found to be somewhat of a hindrance to a department which was ostensibly the road authority in the Transkei but which, in effect , was not. During the latter part of the Financial year 1964-65 and more so during 1965-66 certain of the Regional Authorities asked the Department of Roads and Works to relieve them of their road making responsibilities . Such as step could only be taken as an administrative one and where possible the department took over the major road functions . The Transkei Road Act was assented to by the State President on 8th February, 1966, and became law on 1st April, 1966 , under Proclamation No. 84 of 4th March, 1966. It is , therefore, only since that date that the Department of Roads and Works became the legally constituted road authority in the Transkei. REVENUE VOTE 6 · ROADS AND WORKS.

Thursday, 26th May , 1966 (at 9 a.m.)

Building Services , Sub-head J, R104,438 (paragraph 2 , page 19 read with Schedule of Works , pages 21 - 23) .

PRESENT .

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17. Chairman. ) Mr. Muller, have you any further comments to offer in this regard? - (Mr. Muller. ) I wish to point out that the Schedule of Works, referred to, was furnished by the Accounting Officer and was compiled from subsidiary records maintained by his department and is unaudited.

18. Chairman.) n. ) Mr. Grabe , it is observed from the Schedule of Works that whereas provision was made for certain works involving large amounts, only relatively small sums were expended as at 31.3.65 . Could you please tell the Committee what the expenditure represents and whether these Works were subsequently completed. The following items are involved. MAJOR WORKS (PAGE 21): Provision.

Expenditure.

R Butterworth - Farm Buildings and Stores.... 14,000

R 197.91

The history of this case dates back to preself- government days when the South African Bantu Trust had made an amount of R14,000 available for certain building works to be carried out on the Trust farms Weltevreden and Hillside , in the Butterworth district. The " Farm buildings" included a shed which was to be erected at Weltevredent for the purpose of housing the Phormium tenax decorticating plant. By the time self-government came, nothing had been done in regard to the plant shed at Weltevreden but work was in hand on the Hillside projects. Since it was not known at the time the 1964/65 Transkeian Government Estimates were drawn up how much of the previously provided funds had been expended and as the scope of the decorticating plant installations was also not known , in detail , it was considered wisest to use the amount of R14,000 as a guide and to include this figure in the Estimates for that year.

Umtata · Transkei Government Garages . Offices and Tyre Store ...

65,000

In the result it turned out that only R197.91 was required to complete the work at Hillside , and in the meantime a further development took place in theDepartment of Agriculture and Forestry according to which the site for the decorticating plant was

331.10

MINOR WORKS:

changed to the Fingo Regional Authority ground at Butterworth. That is why, in subsequent estimates , the term "farm buildings" disappeared and the term "new buildings for decorticating factory" was substituted, since this was to be the sole purpose of the building.

Department of Agriculture and Forestry (pages 21 - 22) . Butterworth - Extension to Store

800

25.31

Tsolo - House Agricultural Officer

7,000

30.41

500

.55

Amanzamnyama - Accommodation, Compound 10 ............... 1,000

37.20

Insikeni Quarters

42.68

Mhlahlani - Inspection Ramp ..

Accommodation ........ 1,200

Mpur - Accommodation, Clerks Quarters

1,000

It may be mentioned here, that this service, even now, has not been finalised as a measure of doubt existed in the minds of the officials concerned with the decorticating project as to which of a number of fibre extraction machines would be the most effective, since some of the machines used in a pilot plant erected some time previously, gave a disappointingly low yield. A measure of experimentation with another make of plant became necessary and this is still proceeding. It is anticipated, however, that it will be possible to report progress for the 1966/67 financial year.

29.40 Umtata : Transkei Government Garages , Offices and Tyre Store Provision R65,000 : Expenditure R331.10.

Department of Justice (page 23). Cofimvaba - House Assistant B.A.C. ......... ........

4,000

11.06

Cala · Accommodation Quarters , Bantu Personnel 9,000

9.58

Umtata - Additional Office .... 7,000

60.80

This service has had an unfortunate history, but, as will be seen, the delay in getting it under way is in fact a blessing in disguise. The garage was supposed to house 100 vehicles and the only site available which seemed to satisfy requirements , was the one on the corner of Leeds Road and Durham Street, on which formerly stood the old Transkeian Territorial Authority stores and workshop, a series of old, dilapidated and unserviceable structures . Work was put in hand during 1964/65 to prepare the site for the new building and an amount of R331.10 was expended on this work during the latter part of the year (a further amount of R91.64 was debited to the item in the following year for completion of site preparation).

Department of Roads and Works (page 23).

Umtata - Highbury General Store

6,000

23.52

Department of Education (page 23).

Butterworth - Teko Trade School ........ .....

5,000

22.60

Flagstaff · Sigcau High School

3,000

22.79

The design of the building and the drawing up of the specification had just commenced when it became known that the Cape Provincial Authorities intended to close down a great deal of their activities in Umtata, the provincial roads having been handed over to the Transkeian Government, making

- (Mr. Grabe.) Butterworth : Farm Buildings and Stores : Provision R14,000 Expenditure R197.91 .

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to the stores would be fruitless expenditure.

it superfluous for the Provincial Roads Department to continue operations on the same scale in the Transkei as before.

Service (b) has been discontinued. It was taken over originally as an item on a building programme approved by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, and was intended for the housing of a white official, no longer necessary. Instead, since then, houses for Bantu officials have been provided at Tsolo .

The department then felt that the Provincial Road Depot would, with its buildings and facilities and larger space , be ideally suited as a government garage. It would , in fact, be better suited than the site originally thought of since the survey carried out and the preliminary drawings prepared indicated that the Transkeian Territorial Authority site would not be able to accommodate a complement of 100 vehicles and there were already strong indications of an expansion in the transport require ments of various departments , a forecast which has since materialised.

Service (c) will be completed this year. (d) Amanzimnyama, Accommodation , Compound 10: The amount reflected was expended on cement and nails. The service is now virtually complete. (e) Insekeni : Accommodation, Quarters : The amount shown was spent on the purchase of thatch grass and window panes. The service has since been completed. ( f) Mpur Accommodation, Clerk's Quarters : The amount shown was spent on repairs which formed part of the service which has since been completed .

It would have been irresponsible to have proceeded with the project of erecting a garage on the Transkeian Territorial Authority site knowing that the garage would soon be too small and knowing that a better site might become available with all facilities already provided. Consequently the planning and design work was stopped and negotiations started to lay claim to the provincial site. These negotiations were somewhat protracted but the upshot of it all was that it was discovered that the ground belongs to the Umtata Municipality and that they themselves need it for the expansion of their engineering services, which are at present severely overcrowded.

Serious thought was once more given to the Transkeian Territorial Authority site, but by this time the misgivings as to its adequacy were fully justified by the march of events , for not only is the site now found to be definitely inadequate, but the site is most urgently needed for the provision of further temporary accommodation for various departments until these can be taken up in the new building complex in roughly 4 years' time , there being no suitable office accommodation available in Umtata for hire. Nevertheless , an amount of R422.74 in all was spent on the site , but this money would in any case have had to be spent on . it for the temporary office structures now to be erected on it or for any other future use to which the site may be put.

Department of Justice (page 23). (a) Cofimvaba - House. for Assistant Bantu Affairs Commissioner; Accommodation , Quarters , Bantu Per(b) Cala sonnel; (c) Umtata - Additional Office.

In all three cases the expenditure shown was wrongly allocated. As explained above, adjustments to the departmental record will be made. Service ( a) is another case of " inheritance" from the Department of Bantu Administration and Development , and the service has been dropped from future Estimates as unnecessary . Service (b) was included in the estimates in error, the Department of Justice being under the impression that the Government was under an obligation to house clerical staff, attached to that department.

Service (c) was subsequently completed. Department of Roads and Works.

To round off the picture, it may be mentioned that several alternative sites are being investigated for use as a government garage. The one which offers best value for money will be chosen in the end.

Highbury General Store: The amount shown against this project is wrongly allocated and the necessary adjustment will be made to the department's records.

Department of Agriculture and Forestry. (a) Butterworth Extension to Store; (b) Tsolo · House Agricultural Officer; (c) Mhlahlani - Inspection Ramp :

This store was actually intended to serve the Department of Agriculture and Forestry because the Department of Roads and Works found it necessary to take over the whole of the Central Store situated

The amounts of money shown as having been spent against the above services are incorrectly allocated. It is, however, known what services should in fact have been debited with the amounts and the

near the Workshop. Subsequently it was found that the Department of Agriculture and Forestry did not require additional stores accommodation due to a change of policy in regard to stores. The service consequently never started.

department's records will be adjusted accordingly.

Department of Education. Service (a) has been discontinued from the estimates because there is every likelihood that the site on which the stores are built will become available to the Department of Roads and Works for a road depot. Proceeding with the extensions

(a) Butterworth - Teko Trade School ; (b) Flagstaff - Sigcau High School. Both cases are victims of incorrect allocations -457-

which will, however, be rectified in so far as the department's records are concemed.

are to be taken over is still unchanged . It is known, however, that the issue is still under consideration by the Republican Govemment.

Service (a) is still in progress and involves the provision of a water supply which is creating many problems .

Motor Vehicles Involved in Accidents . Third party risk (paragraph 4, pages 19 and 20).

Service (b) involves a water supply which was proceeded with in 1965/66 . In general , I should like to make the observation that the above series of misallocations was the residue of a great number of similar errors which were made by field personnel and others during the year under review, the greater number by far having been spotted and rectified in time. It is also necessary for me to emphasise that this department is without an accounts branch of its own and eventually had to rob all sections in the department of staff, in order to create a small and for a long time, inexperienced group of units whose task it became to check the allocation of expenditure on services. The lack of an accounts branch or of an accounts statistics branch is a severe handicap to the department's efficient operation and it redounds to the credit of the personnel concerned that the position is not worse than it is. It is hoped in time to be able to establish an accounts statistics section.

21. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe, it is reported that an amount of R6,830 was paid during the year in respect a third party insurance , due to the fact that the Government does not carry its own third party risk. Is this sound policy? (Mr. Grabe .) Prior to selfgovernment the former Transkeian Territorial Authority did not carry third party insurance, but with the advent of self- government it was considered advisable to subscribe to this form of insurance for the following reasons:-

(a) The prosperity which it was anticipated self-government would bring to the country would increase vehicular traffic on the roads , a presumption which seems fully justified from observations of traffic on the roads although I am unable to give reliable statistics.

(b) The expansion of the activities in the departments would bring about a further increase in traffic, a forecast which has been proved right.

Many of the services listed in the Report show no expenditure having been incurred on them at all. As was intimated earlier this is due in part to the fact that a programme had already been drawn up for 1964/65 for the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and this was taken up almost as it stood in the first Transkei Estimates which had to be prepared in haste. Some services , notably accommodation for various White officials , should not have featured on the Transkei Estimates

(c) Some of the newly qualified drivers would, through lack in driving experience , be more prone to being involved in accidents than experienced drivers , a fact which is borne out by world statistics .

at all and no Transkeian funds were expended on them . Other cases occurred where services were dropped due to changes in policy . It is submitted that these occurrences must be regarded as part of the process of the departments finding their feet and settling down to realistic methods of programming of and estimating for requirements.

possibly embarrassing financial outlays in successful claims against it if it were not insured against this risk.

(d) Third parties involved in accidents which may occur at a higher rate now than was possible before self- government could involve the Govemment in serious and

(e) The principle of a govemment authority carrying this kind of cover is not without precedent since the Transvaal Provincial Administration which operates a large fleet of vehicles found it expedient to carry this insurance.

The above, in addition to the reasons already furnished to the Auditor must be taken as the main causes for the large surplus reflected on Vote 6. 19. Mr. Nota. ) Mr. Grabe, I observe that no expenditure was incurred in respect of amounts of R10,000 and R90,000 voted for acquisition of the Matatiele, St. Margaret's School and Umtata , St.

It may be of interest to this Committee to learn that a serious accident occurred in the Mount Frere district some time ago where a driver of the former Transkeian Territorial Authority was found responsible for causing the accident. Third party claims have now been instituted against the Transkei

John's College respectively. Could you please explain why? - (Mr. Grabe. ) Both these amounts were put on these Estimates by mistake. It was not appreciated at that time that these properties were to be purchased by the Department of Interior and not by the Department of Roads and Works .

Government (as successor to the Transkeian Territorial Authority ) and are now being considered by the Supremem Court at Grahamstown. The claims amount to R20,000 , exclusive of costs .

Purchase and Acquisition of Motor Vehicles (paragraph 3(1 ) , page 19) .

I would say that third party insurance is sound policy since a single accident can wipe out the savings in premiums for many years.

20. Chairman. ) Mr. Grabe, in the footnote to the statement it is mentioned that the conditions

22. Mr. Canca. ) Mr. Grabe , it is reported that two drivers were convicted and sentenced, one having been ordered to repay an amount of R300 of which R292 was outstanding. Is it possible to recover the outstanding amount? - ( Mr. Grabe.) Whether it is possible or not , I do not know, but

on which the vehicles are to be taken over , have not yet been finalised . Can you please inform the Committee of the present position . · (Mr. Grabe. ) The position in regard to the conditions under which the former Republican Government Garage vehicles

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every endeavour is being made to recover the money from him. The matter was referred to the Magistrate , King William's Town because it was believed this man absconded to that area. We have since been informed that he is in Cape Town and steps are being taken to notify authorities there (the Police) for his arrest. We can say that every endeavour is being made to locate the culprit and bring him to book.

APPENDIX. RESOLUTIONS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS FOR 1965 AND THE TREASURY REPLIES THEREON .

Secretary to the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance advising inter alia that up to that date statements from only 59 authorities for 1962-63 and 72 authorities for 1963-64 had been received , mentioning that almost all of the statements received did not conform to the legal requirements as prescribed in Annexure I and J to Part II of the Regulations under Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 and requesting that the prescribed statements for the financial years 1962-63 and 1963-64, when duly completed, be submitted to Audit with the relative vouchers and properly authenticated copies of the relative estimates . On the 2nd June , 1965 , a reply was received which read in part as follows: "1. Unfortunately tribal and community authorities are unable, through lack of qualified staff, to furnish statements in accordance with the provisions of Proclamation No. 180 of 1956 for the years 1962/63 and 1963/64.

RESOLUTION NO . 1 : Rendition and audit of statements of account of community and tribal authorities.

Prior to the passing of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, the accounts of each community or tribal authority in the Transkei were , in terms of the Regulations published under Proclam ation No. 180 of 1956 , required to be audited by a private auditor approved by the relative Bantu Affairs Commissioner. Section 58 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, which came into force on the 30th May, 1963, however, superseded certain of the provisions of the aforementioned Regulations . Accordingly the Controller and Auditor-General became the statutory auditor of the accounts of community and tribal authorities as from their financial years

2. In order to provide you with some basis to work on it has been decided to furnish you with a summary of statements in respect of tribal and community authorities showingthe following:-

Opening balance Total Receipts

Total Payments Closing balance.

3. This statement will not be supported by vouchers .

ending 30th June, 1963. 4. For the reason mentioned in 1 above it with a has been decided to dispense balance sheet and estimates from each authority.

In paragraph 6(3), page 2 of the Controller and Auditor-General's Report for 1963-64 it is reported (i) that correspondence regarding the matter of the change in the legal position and in respect of the financial period (vide Resolution (2) hereunder) resulted in the Secretary to the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance on the 11th December, 1964, issuing a circular to Magistrates in the Transkei requesting that, for purposes of audit, the statements of account for the financial years 1962-63 and 1963-64 be forwarded to his office not later than the

5. In respect of the years 1 964/65 and 1965/66 , however, instructions will be issued to authorities to render statements in more detail than those contemplated above but nevertheless in a simpler form than that laid down in Government Notice No. 1560 of 1957."

The evidence brought to light the fact that, whereas all the financial transactions of inter alia the Transkeian Revenue Fund and of regional and district authorities are required by law to be accounted for on the simple receipts and payments basis of accounting, the law at present requires that the financial trans actions of the community and tribal authorities be accounted for on the more complex revenue and expenditure basis of accounting. In order to comply with the law at present, therefore, it would be necessary for community and tribal authorities to secure the services of persons skilled in bookkeeping.

31st January, 1965, (ii) that on the 4th February, 1965, in respect of 126 community and tribal authorities in the Transkei he transmitted to Audit statements of account of one kind or another from only 58 authorities in res pect of 1962-63 and 60 authorities in respect of 1963-64, the remainder being still outstanding; and (iii) that even in respect of the statements received it was not practicable to carry

After enquiry your Committee is satisfied that, until the law is changed substantially so as to permit of the compilation and rendition of accounts by, or where necessary, on behalf of, community and tribal authorities on a much simpler basis , and at less cost to themselves , than at present, it would be unreasonable to expect all such authorities to comply with the law to the full extent.

out any audit by the time the report had to be written .

The evidence showed that, since the report was written there had been no progress regarding the auditing of the accounts , but there had been further correspondence on the subject. On the 5th April , 1965, Audit wrote

The minute of the Secretary to the Chief Minister

to the

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(b) that summaries of receipts and payments for 1964-65 , similar to the summarised statements referred to above , should in all cases be based on a financial period ended 31st March, 1965; and

and Finance dated 2nd June , 1965, quoted above sets out in what manner compliance with the law to the extent found practicable will be attempted . For the aforementioned reasons your Committee considers that the substantial failure to comply with the law regarding community and tribal authorities should be condoned by the passing, as soon as circumstances permit , of validating legislation in which the procedure set out in the minute dated 2nd June , 1965, referred to is deemed to be sufficient compliance with the law, until such time as amending legislation and regulations thereunder are in operation. It recommends accordingly.

(c) that those authorities whose estimates were approved for a financial year ending on the 30th June, 1965, should furnish financial statements for (i) the period 1st July, 1964 to 31st March, 1965;

(Qs. 5-8.) (ii) the period 1st April to 30th June, 1965; and

REPLY: The necessary validating legislation will be introduced by the Chief Minister during the current session of the Legislative Assembly.

(iii) the period 1st July, 1965, to 31st March, 1966; in order that statement (i) and statements (ii ) plus (iii) may be published in the 1964-65 and 1965-66 Reports , respectively, and statements (i) plus (ii ) and statement (iii) may respectively be compared with approved estimates for the periods 1st July, 1964, to 30th June, 1965, and 1st July, 1965 , to 31st March, 1966 .

RESOLUTION NO . 2: Financial Period of Regional , District, Community and Tribal Authorities .

In paragraphs 5(2) and 6(2) of the Controller and Auditor-General's Report for 1963-64 it is stated that, as a result of the question of the financial period of regional , district, community and tribal authorities being taken up by Audit, the Secretary to the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance advised all Magistrates on the 3rd December , 1964, that "as the result of a legal opinion obtained it has been ascertained that the financial year of lower authorities has been amended by the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) and now corresponds with the financial year of the Transkei Government namely from the 1st April in one year to the 31st March in the following year" , but that, by reason of practical difficulties regarding estimates, it was decided that the financial period would end on the 31st March only as from 1965 onwards. The evidence revealed that it was not possible for certain of the authorities to comply with the request at that comparatively late sta ge because of the estimates having been drawn up and approved for the financial year 1st July, 1964, to 30th June , 1965, and consequently those authorities did not close their books on the 31st March , 1965. In such cases , therefore, the financial period of the authorities concerned would end on the 31st March only as from 1966 onwards .

From enquiries made your Committee is satisfied that the failure to comply with the law in respect of the financial period prior to 1966 is to a certain extent a technical illegality not requiring condonation by means of validat ing legislation . Nevertheless in the opinion of the Committee it is important that the accounts of the aforementioned authorities should be drawn up in such a manner that they can be not only compared with the approved estimates but also summarised on the lines of the summarised statements on pages 9 to 11 of the Controller and Auditor-General's Report under

It recommends accordingly. (Qs. 9, 10 and 12.) REPLY: Effect will be given to the Committee's recommendation. RESOLUTION NO . 4. Statements of Special Warrants. In order to establish whether any other matter would be referred to it this session, your Committee made enquiries regarding whether a statement of special warrants granted during the first month of the session by the Transkeian Minister of Finance, in terms of section 55 of the Transkei Constitution Act, would be transmitted by the Controller and Auditor-General to the Minister for presentation to the Legislative Assembly, as it seemed from the provisions of section 24(2) of the Exchequer and Audit Act No. 23 of 1956 , read with section 58 of the Constitution Act, that such a statement might be expected. According to the evidence obtained, however, the Controller and Auditor-General considers that there is no legal obligation on him to submit a return of special warrants to the Transkei Legislative Assembly having regard to the wording of section 55, notwithstanding the provisions of section 58, of the Constitution Act, but that, should the Public Accounts Committee desire that returns be submitted to it, he suggests that a resolution be passed requesting the submission of retums to the Legislative Assembly at the beginning of each session, a procedure which has been adopted by the Transvaal Provincial Administration.

consideration . Your Committee Your Committee therefore considers (a) that all authorities should end their financial period on the 31st March from 1966 onwards ;

considers it desirable that

statements of special warrants granted by the Minister of Finance, in terms of section 55 of the Constitution Act, be examined by the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts . As the Controller and Auditor-General is prepared to render such state-460-

ments for that purpose, your Committee recommends that he be approached with a view to the transmission of a statement of special warrants to the Minister of Finance, for presentation to the Legislative Assembly and reference to its Sessional Committee on Public Accounts, at the commencement of each session. (Q. 14.)

REPLY: The Resolution was referred to the local representative of the Controller and Auditor- General , who has indicated that the required return will be fumished as recommended by the Committee. That officer has also indicated that monthly returns will be furnished while the Legislative Assembly is in session.

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