Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. First and Second Sessions. Second Assembly. 19th November, 1968 to 21st November, 1968. 23rd April, 1969 to 19th June, 1969
133 61
English Pages [510] Year 1969
Front Cover
Subject Matter
Discontinuance of Sale of Jabulani
Oath, Administration
(Third Reading)
Payment of Sessional Allowances to Members
8
I
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GOVT PUBIS DEPT
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Assumi
GPP C
707
73
T73a 1969
1968-
INDIANA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY DOCUMENTS DEPARTMENT BLOOMINGTON , INDIANA 47405
GOVT PUBLS DEPT A
Republic of South
Africa
Government
Transkei
EXUNITATE VIRES
Debates
of the
Transkei Legislative
Assembly
000000000000000000000
First and Second
Sessions
Second Assembly
000000000000000000000
19th November,
23rd
April,
1968 to
1969 to
21st
November,
19th June ,
1969
TY
INDIANA UNIVERSI AUG 18 1970 Y LIBRAR
***
************
00000000000000000
1968
Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty. ) Ltd. , Umtata
No. of Copies Printed: 1,000 : R1.00 Price per Copy VE 10 [
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INDEX
A Page
A.H. Vosloo , Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration .... ..... Mr. H.J. Klopper, Speaker of the House of Assembly of .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ... 3, .... .... 8, 13, 30, 92, 135, 172 , 245, 285, 307, 377, 390, 426 , .... .... .... .... Alteration of Titles " Chief Minister" and "Chairman "... .... .... .... .... .... .... Appointment of Committee .... .... Assignment of Portion of Mjanyana Commonage for grazing
5
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Address, Opening, by the Honourable .... and Development Address , Opening, by the Honourable the Republic of South Africa Adjournment of the Assembly .... Administration of Oath Announcements.... ....
8 471 12 83, 231 , 365,
4. 5, 43, 69, 185 , 217, 325, 354, 446 268, 281, 286 13 .... .... 407
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B
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.... Bills : Appropriation .... (First Reading) (Second Reading) ..... (Committee of Supply)
32 .... 76, 83 ....108, 120 , 129 , 135, 148 , 186 , 192, 205 218 .... .... ....
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231 248 257 277
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257 278 286 296
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279 286
285 296 329 355 308 313 366 394 329 355 383 394
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205 .... .... 238, 248
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185 231 257 278
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Transkeian (Regional Authority) Courts .... .... (First Reading) .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage).... (Third Reading) Transkei Pensions Amendment (First Reading) (Second Reading) . (Committee Stage) ... .... (Third Reading) Transkei Government Service Pensions Amendment .... (First Reading) .... (Second Reading) ( Committee Stage) ... (Third Reading) Transkei Forest
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(Third Reading)
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(Committee Stage) ... (Third Reading) Transkei Townships Amendment (First Reading) (Second Reading) ....
172, 192, 217 , 231 , 271, 365 ....
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(Third Reading) .... Transkei' Authorities Act Amendment (First Reading) .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage)
(First Reading) (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) ….. (Third Reading) Transkei Taxation (First Reading) .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) ... (Third Reading) Transkei Agricultural Development (First Reading) .... (Second Reading) ....
21, 313,
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Bills, Notices of
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377 394
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Bills
Transkei Townships Amendment (continued) ... (Committee State) ... (Third Reading) .... Transkei Road Tax Amendment. .... (First Reading) .... .... (Second Reading) ..... ( Committee Stage)... .... (Third Reading) ....
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409 471
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377 .... 430, 435 .... 461 .... 471
C
.8 ....
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Chairman, Deputy, Election of .... Chairman, Election of .... Chief Minister, Election of .... .... Committee of Ways and Means Construction of Dam in Tsomo area .... Control of Stock Theft in Border areas....
... ....
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4323
Cabinet, Election of
4% 3 2
218 287 404
D .... Deputy Chairman, Election of Designation of Paramount Chiefs in Regions comprising different tribes Discontinuance of Sale of Jabulani .... .... .... .... Documents, Tabling of....
.... 2-322, 352, 358 ..... .... 388 , 399 31, 82, 135, 148, 185, 192, 256, 308, 435
E
,008,80
2
.... ..... .... .... ..... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Election of Chief Minister ..... .... .... .... Election of Deputy Chairman .... Erection of F.M. Masts ... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Establishment of Fresh Produce Markets .... Establishment of General and T.B. Hospitals in the Transkei .... Establishment of Hospital in Tsomo and other villages .... .... .... Establishment of Milk Depots .... Establishment of Village Management Boards by Bantu
Financial Grant to Transkei , Increase of .... .... F.M. Masts, Erection of .... Foodstuffs , Subsidization of Fresh Produce Markets, Establishment of
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F .... .... .... ....
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423 ∞
Election of Cabinet .... Election of Chairman ....
4 2
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408 402 404 419 93
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361 403 462 408
3 403
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9810 H
130 Health Educators' Course, Introduction of
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403 404 402
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Hospitals in Tsomo and other Villages, Establishment of Hospitals in the Transkei, Establishment of General and T, B .
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M
Market Stalls near Jubilee Hall in Umtata
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102, 245, .... .....307 , ....
248 361 308 403
etanabel le gather
.... .... ....
Members of Transkei Legislative Assembly in Attendance Members of Transkei Legislative Assembly, Swearing in of .... .... .... .... .... ..... Message... Motion , Notices of .... .... .... .... .... .... Milk Depots, Establishment of
.... .... .... .... ....
.... .... .... .... ....
.... ....
.... .... ... ་ .... .... ....13, 21,
416 .... 1 .... 2 .... 12 .... 31, 217, 447 419 12
Increased elected representation in Legislative Assembly Increase of Financial Grant to Transkei Government .... .... .... Influx Control Regulations, Repeal of .... Introduction of Health Educator's Course ....
N ....
Notices of Motion
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5, 12 4, 3, 22, 32, 44, 57 , 69 14, .... 21, 172, 192, 217 , 247 , 271 , 313, 365
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New Members , Administration of Oath to .... .... No Confidence .... .... Notices of Bills .. .... .... ....
13,
21 ,
31 , 217, 447
0 Oath, Administration of... Obituary .... .... .... Opening Address
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Opening up of Erven in Transkei Municipalities for prospective Bantu purchasers
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3, .... .... ....
4,
5, 12 12 , 312 8 .... 5, .... 80, 92
P .... .... Payment of Sessional Allowances to Members .... Permission for Wives of African Employees in urban areas to remain .... .... .... .... ..... Ploughing Scheme, 1969 Portion of Mjanyana Commonage for grazing, Assignment of .... Proclamation R400 , Repeal of .... .... ....
...... with their husbands .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
Prohibition of Designation of Paramount Chiefs in Regions comprising different tribes .... ....ME..... Proposed amendment of section 23(b) of Transkei Constitution .... .... .... Proposed change in method of appointment of Cabinet members
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.... 460, .... .... .... .... 288, 322, 352 , ....
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471 468 245 407 300 358 453 267
Ų Questions
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....106, 172, 205, 271 , 325 , 390, 447
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R Registration of Coat of Arms for the Transkei .... .... Repeal of Influx Control Regulations .... .... .... Repeal of Proclamation R400 .... Replacement of Reference Books with Identity Cards Report : Select Committee on Coat of Arms ....
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273 308 300 363 426
.... 388, .... .... 460, .... .... .... .... ....
399 426 471 474 404 462 417 2
S Sale of Jabulani , Discontinuance of .... Select Committee on Coat of Arms , Report .... .... .... Sessional Allowances to Members, Payment of Sessional Committee on Public Accounts , Report of .... .... Stock Theft in Border areas, Control of Subsidization of Foodstuffs .... .... .... .... Suggested Amendment of Section 46 of Act 4 of 1965 .... .... Swearing in of members of Legislative Assembly
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... JEDA T
Tabling of Documents ....
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V Village Management Boards by Bantu, Establishment of
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93
INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH DURING 1969 ASSEMBLY .
Motion No.
Subject Matter
2
No Confidence
345
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 0812
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Pages
Establishment of General and T.B. hospitals in the Transkei ..... .... Replacement of Reference Books with Identity cards Permission for Wives in Urban Areas to remain with their husbands .... .... .... Repeal of Proclamation R400 : Subsidization of Foodstuffs.. ...d Discontinuance of Sale of Jabulani .... Introduction of Health Educators' Course ....
.... ....
.... .... Designation of Paramount Chiefs in Regions comprising different tribes ..... .... Suggested Amendment of Section 46 of Act 4 of 1965 Establishment of Milk Depots .... .... .... Erection of F.M. Masts .... .... .... .... .... Control of Stock Theft in Border areas .... .... .... Repeal of Influx Control Regulations Establishment of Hospital in Tsomo and other villages .... .... Construction of Dam in Tsomo area.... ....
13 16 17 19 20 21 23 ALLEN ****
Opening up of Erven in Transkei Municipalities for prospective Bantu purchasers .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Establishment of Village Management Boards by Bantu .... .... Alteration of Titles " Chief Minister" and "Chairman" .... .... .... Assignment of Portion of Mjanyana Commonage for grazing .... .... .... Establishment of Fresh Produce Markets .... .... .... Market stalls near Jubilee Hall in Umtata .... .... .... .... .... .... Increased elected representation in Legislative Assembly .... Proposed change in method of appointment of Cabinet Ministers .... .... .... Increase of Financial Grant to Transkei Government .... .... .... Proposed amendment of Section 23(b) of Transkei Constitution
24 26 30 41 42 43 44 48 52
22, 57,
14. 44,
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288,
388, 322, 352,
307,
32, 69 402 363 468 300 462 399 403 358 417 419 403 404 308 404 387
80 ,
92 93 268, 281 , 286 407 408 416 102, 245, 248 267 361 453
INDEX TO MINISTERS' SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE POLICY SPEECHES.
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance). Bills
Appropriation .... (Second Reading) (Committee of Supply) Transkei Authorities Act Amendment .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage Transkei Taxation .... .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage)
Transkei Townships Amendment .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) Transkei Road Tax Amendment .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage)
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76 108
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226 257
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394 409
Budget Speech : 76 - 80 Policy Speech : 108-111 Supply Vote 1 : 111 - 129 MOSHESH , the Honourable Chief J.D. (Minister of Justice). Bills Transkeian (Regional Authority) Courts (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage)
Policy Speech : 129 - 131 Supply Vote 2 : 131 - 146 MATANZIMA, the Honourable Chief G.M.M. (Minister of Education).
Policy Speech : 146 - 149 Supply Vote 3149-168
NDAMSE, the Honourable Mr. C.M. ( Minister of the Interior) Bills Transkei Pensions Amendment (Second Reading) .... .... .... .... .... (Committee Stage) Transkei Government Service Pensions Amendment .... .... .... (Second Reading) .... (Committee Stage) .... Policy Speech : 168-170 Supply Vote 4 : 170 - 185
.... .... .... ....
BULUBE, the Honourable Mr. N.P. (Minister of Agriculture and Forestry) Bills Transkei Forest .... .... .... .... (Second Reading) .... .... (Committee Stage) Transkei Agricultural Development .... .... .... (Second Reading) .
(Committee Stage) 186 - 189 Policy Speech Supply Vote 5 : 189 - 205 SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S.N. (Minister of Roads and Works). Policy Speech : 205 - 208 Supply Vote 6 : 208 - 217
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SPECIAL SESSION TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
PROCEEDINGS AT THE MEETING OF THE MEMBERS OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ELECTING OFFICE- BEARERS , ETC. The session opened in the Transkei Legislative Assembly Chamber , Umtata, at 10.30 a.m. on TUESDAY, 19th NOVEMBER , 1968 , with the Secretary , Mr. W.D.D. Makohliso , in the chair.
Prayers were read. The Acting Chairman read the Government Notice convoking the Assembly. The roll was called . MEMBERS OF TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY IN ATTENDANCE
BIZANA:
LUSIKISIKI :
Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Mr. Columbus Madikizela
Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau Chief Justice Mpondombini Sigcau Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau Mr. Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo
BUTTERWORTH :
Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr. Sikake Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana
MATATIELE :
Chief Havington Zandisile Zulu Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube
ELLIOTDALE :
MOUNT AYLIFF :
Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana
Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse
ENGCOBO: Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgud !wa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija
MOUNT CLETCHER :
Chief Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Nkwenkwezi H.H. Zibi
FLAGSTAFF :
Mr. B. Langa Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Lowell Gwebizilwana Sigcau Chief Nelson Sigcau
MOUNT FRERE : Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Hobden Martin Canca Mr. Colly Dabula
IDUTYWA: MQANDULI :
Mi. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Acting Chief Magida Zenzile Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi
Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezuli Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane
KENTANI : Mr. Vivien Nonxuba Reve Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa
LIBODE : NGQELENI :
Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndama se Mr. Candulwande W. Singata
Chief Ferguson Sandi Gwadiso Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula
1.
NQAM AKWE :
TSOMO:
Chief Hardington M. Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko
Mr. Skampule C. Mnyila
PORT ST. JOHN'S : UM TATA: Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Mr. Madangatye A. Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani
QUMBU:
Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Charles M. Ludidi Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh
UMZIMKULU:
Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Siphiwo Linford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane
ST. MARK'S : Paramount Chief Kaizer D. Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibangile V. Ndarala Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Acting Chief Mfengwana V. Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch Tshunungwa
WILLOWVALE : Paramount Chief M. Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi A. Dumalisile Mr. Jongilizwe M. Dumalisile
TABANKULU : Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Mamilton Dumani
XALANGA :
Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
TSOLO : PARAMOUNT CHIEFS ' REPRESENTATIVES : Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Maneli Zwelibanzi Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika
Mr. L. Maninjwa Mr. E.G. Sihele Mr. A. Xelo
ACTING CHAIRMAN : I shall now conduct the Judge President into the Chamber.
The members present took the oath prescribed by section 33 of the Transkei Constitution Act before the Judge President.
PARAMOUNT CHIEF K.D. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman, can you allow people who are not members to be present in the Chamber, because there is a chief here who is not a member? ACTING names are Chamber. been called
ACTING CHAIRMAN : Mr. Judge President , I wish to assure you that the members of this Legislative Assembly are not unmindful of the sacrifice you must have made in order to be with us today to grace this historic occasion. We feel that as one who has watched the constitutional development of these Territories from its infancy it was fitting that the induction of members of the Second Transkei Legislative Assembly should also be conducted by you, and on behalf of the members of this Assembly and the peoples of the Transkei I wish to express our appreciation and deep sense of gratitude for the invaluable service you have rendered today.
CHAIRMAN : Only members whose called are expected to be in the Anybody else whose name has not should please leave the Chamber .
SWEARING IN OF MEMBERS OF LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACTING CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , we are greatly honoured in having with us today the Judge President of the Eastern Cape , Mr. Justice A.G. Jennett, who has kindly agreed to administer the oath to members of this Assembly. Mr. Justice Jennett needs no introduction as he is no stranger in these parts. He has for very many years toured the Transkei with the Circuit Court, first as an advocate , then as a Judge, and now as Judge President. On behalf of this Assembly I wish to extend a warm welcome to you , Sir. I have now great pleasure in asking the Judge President to administer the oath to members of this Assembly . I shall call upon the members to come up one by one. After they have taken the oath before the Judge President, they shall come round to this side of the table to sign the oath.
ELECTION OF CHAIRMAN ACTING CHAIRMAN : The House will now proceed with the election of the Chairman. Members have been supplied with a programme in which the procedure to be followed is outlined . It will not be necessary to use prescribed forms for nomination. The nominations may be verbal. I shall now call for proposals . MR. B. LANGA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the name of Mr. Martin Canca as Chairman. MR. R. MSENGANA : I second. 2.
Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Acting Chief Zimisile Dalasile Chief Isaac Matiwane
ACTING CHAIRMAN : The name of Mr. Martin Canca, the hon. member for Mount Frere , has been proposed and seconded . As there are no other nominations I therefore declare Mr. Martin H. Canca the duly elected Chairman of this House . I shall now ask the proposer and seconder to escort the Chairman to the chair.
ELECTION OF CHIEF MINISTER THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House , the House will now proceed with the election of the Chief Minister and before we do that I shall ask the Secretary to read section 13 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) .
The Chairman took the chair. Hon. paramount chiefs THE CHAIRMAN: and hon. members of the House , before we proceed I should like to express my gratitude to this House for having elected me Chairman. I only hope that God will assist me in dealing with the matters of this House impartially. I am quite aware of the responsibility laid upon me. I shall now call for nominations for Deputy Chairman.
The Secretary read section 13 of the Transkei Constitution Act.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I would like to tell the members that prescribed forms for nomination may be obtained from the Secretary by anybody who requires one and has not obtained one. I shall now call for proposals .
ELECTION OF DEPUTY CHAIRMAN MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am one of those who has a form and according to procedure I just have to hand it over to you for it contains the name of the hon. member who is proposed to be Chief Minister of this House .
Mr. T.E. ka TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have the greatest pleasure in nominating the name of Mr. Enoch Dyarvane as Deputy Chairman. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: Isecond.
MR. Z.M. MABANDLA: I second . The Secretary read the nomination of Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima as Chief Minister , signed by Messrs . C.K. Madikizela and Z.M. Mabandla.
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman , I rise to move the name of Chief Petros Jozana who is present today in the House. He has been the Chairman of this Assembly.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to hand over this document which contains the name of the member we wish to become Chief Minister of the House .
MR. G.G. KUTU: I second. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I quite understand that the House has agreed that my former Deputy should be the Chairman. I would not wish to become Deputy because I was higher than the Deputy before .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : I second , Mr. Chairman.
The Secretary read the nomination of Mr. K.M. Guzana as Chief Minister, signed by Messrs . L.Z. Majija and H.H. Zibi .
THE CHAIRMAN : I understand that there are no further nominations because the hon. Chief Jozana has declined nomination , so I shall declare the hon. Mr. M.E. Dyarvane as Deputy Chairman of the House . I shall now call upon the proposers to come forward with the Deputy Chairman .
CHIEF G.M. MATANZIMA : Before we adjourn, Mr. Chairman, I think during the last elections we had here , before we elected there was some discussion about the position of the ballot box. We would prefer it to be at the back of the hall because when it is in its present position there are all those people up there looking at the man voting below.
The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION
THE CHAIRMAN : If there are no further nominations the House will adjourn for a few minutes whilst the Secretaries are preparing the ballot papers . As soon as the bell rings everybody must come in.
The Assembly resumed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , our next business will be the election for the post of Chief Minister, but before we proceed I might mention that there are now members who are in the Assembly who were not in the Assembly at the time of the induction. To enable those members to exercise a vote we shall first make Will they please come them take the oath. forward .
The Assembly adjourned.
The Assembly resumed. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , we shall now proceed, but before we start voting I shall call upon the Secretary to read once more the names of the people who have been nominated .
The Chairman administered the oath to the following members : -
THE SECRETARY: The following members have been nominated : - Mr. K.M. Guzana and Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima .
Mr. Anderson D. Joyi Chief Frank Zibi 3.
THE CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed I would like to inform the House that for those members who are unable to read or sign there is one person who has taken an oath of secrecy and who will assist them . In the process of voting each member will come forward , receive the ballot paper from the Secretary and proceed to the ballot box .
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH
The ballot for the election of Chief Minister took place .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I would like to know whether any members who did not take the oath yesterday are present. If there are any , I would request them to come forward .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I shall now call upon the Secretary to count the votes The nominees , if they wish, may come cast. forward and watch the count or appoint people to do so on their behalf.
Chief B. Setuse and Acting Chief D. Gecelo took the oath before the Chairman. ELECTION OF CABINET
The votes were counted in the presence of Messrs . ka Tshunungwa and Majija.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , our important business today is the election of Ministers of the Cabinet. Prescribed forms are available and those who require them may obtain them. I will now call for nominations , but before we continue I shall call upon the Secretary of the House to read section 14 of the Constitution.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the results are as follows : Mr. K.M. Guzana Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima
25 votes 73 votes
The Secretary read section 14 ofthe Transkei Constitution Act.
There are two spoilt papers . I now declare Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima as the duly elected Chief Minister of the Transkei . I shall call upon him now to make a short address .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I wish to point out that there are five portfolios and no member may vote for more than five candidates , nor may a member cast less than five votes . I now call for nominations .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , first of all I wish to express my appreciation and congratulations to the Opposition for having taken part in this election this time . My mind goes back to the election of ministers in 1963 when the Opposition members went to the polling booth and put a cross across the polling paper. I presume that they have now taken full cognizance and have accepted the Transkei Constitution, and if they have assumed that spirit I have no doubt that we shall have a pleasant time in this Chamber while we are going through the affairs of our people. I have been elected head of the Transkeian Government by popular vote. Eighty per cent of the people , or rather voters , of the Transkei have again expressed their support and unswering loyalty to the Government headed by me . For this they have earned my sincere thanks and appreciation for this kind gesture which they have displayed openly. I want to assure my colleagues in this House that I will continue to serve the people of the Transkei humbly, honestly, conscientiously and with dedication to duty. The Transkei will receive first consideration in everything I do. I want to tell the world, and South Africa in particular, that they shall be bound by the Transkei Constitution and do everything to achieve the expressed and/ or implied objectives embodied in the Transkei Constitution. As I shall later deliver an address to this House during the session I do not propose to say more. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
The following nominations were handed in and announced by the Secretary:-
Chief G.M.M. Matanzima , proposed by Chief S.N. Jumba, seconded by Chief S. Lebenya. Mr. N.P. Bulube, proposed by Mr. R.B. Msengana , seconded by Mr. M. Masiko . Rev. G. T. Vika , proposed by Mr. R. Madikizela , seconded by B.S. Mnyani. Mr. M.C. Ndamse , proposed by Mrs. A.Z. Mzozoyana, seconded by Mr. S. Dokolwana. Chief J.D. Moshesh, proposed by Mr. T.E. ka Tshunungwa, seconded by Mr. L.I. Cemane.
Miss S.N. Sigcau, proposed by Mr. L.I. Cemane , seconded by Mr. T.E. kaTshunungwa . THE CHAIRMAN : You now have the proposed names . I wish to announce that for the benefit of those who can neither read nor write there is an official who has taken the oath of secrecy who will assist them. Nobody need have any anxiety because he cannot write or read. Mr. Chairman and MR. K.M. GUZANA: that at the first appear would hon. members , it election of Cabinet Ministers , as was the case in the first election of the Chief Minister , there were two people to assist. I refer to the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly recorded as having taken place on Friday , 6th December, May we suggest that we have two wit1963. nesses, Sir?
The Assembly adjourned until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 20th November , 1968. WEDNESDAY 20th NOVEMBER, 1968 The Assembly resumed at 10.40 a.m.
4.
ADMINISTRATION OF OATH
THE CHAIRMAN : I can see no reason against this suggestion. I will only ask the House to be patient for a few minutes while a second witness is being sworn in. The House will adjourn for a few minutes .
The Chief Minister and five Cabinet Ministers took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly.
The Assembly adjourned .
Opening Address by the HONOURABLE A.H. VOSLOO, DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT.
The Assembly resumed .
THE CHAIRMAN : We shall now proceed with the business of the House . The following are the six candidates :- Chief G.M.M. Matanzima , Mr. N.P. Bulube , Chief J.D. Moshesh , Mr. M.C. Ndamse , Miss S.N. Sigcau and Rev. G.T. Vika. Each member will vote for five candidates . Members will obtain voting papers from the Secretary and after receiving them will proceed to the ballot box. Such members as can write will do so and thos who cannot write will have the benefit of the assistance of two witnesses . The second witness has taken the oath of secrecy. If there are any members outside the Chamber they should be allowed in to exercise their vote.
Mr. Chairman and Members of the Legislative Assembly : I am very honoured to be present here today to open this first session of the Transkei's Second Legislative Assembly on behlaf of the State President of the Republic of South Africa. This occasion can be regarded as a further milestone in the history of the Transkeian Nation. It is a commencement of a five year term of office of a new Transkeian Government.
The ballot for the election of five Cabinet Ministers took place .
In his speech delivered on the occasion of the opeining of the seventh and last session of your First Legislative Assembly the Honourable Dr. Diederichs gave you a resumé of the progress that had been made in the Transkei in all phases over the past five years , that is from the date that your first Legislative Assembly was constituted , and I do not today propose to traverse in detail this terrain again but wish to express the hope that during the term of office of this Assembly the tempo of development of your country on all planes will be maintained if not accelerated .
THE CHAIRMAN: We shall now ask the Secretary and his Assistant to count the votes . The candidates are allowed to come and check or if they cannot come themselves they may send representatives to do so . The votes were counted in the presence of four representatives . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , these are the results and I shall begin with the candidate who has the least number of votes :Rev. G.T. Vika Miss S.N. Sigcau Mr. M.C. Ndamse Chief J.D. Moshesh Chief G.M.M. Matanzima Mr. N.P. Bulube
At the same time I wish to reiterate the sound advice imparted to you by the Hounourable Dr. Diederichs to the effect that you should not be overhasty in your aspirations towards political self-fulfilment. Five years is but a short period in the life of a nation and it is far better to exercise patience in the gradual buildings up of your political system towards the ultimate goal rather than taking overhastry decisions which might lead to confusion and chaos as has been SO evident in other parts of this continent.
28 votes 99 100 100 "" 75 99 98 99
There was one spoilt paper . I declare the following to be duly elected Ministers of the Transkei Government :
In the task that lies ahead of you , you may, as in the past , rely onthe assistance and support of my Government and its officials .
Chief G.M.M. Matanzima Mr. N.P. Bulube Chief J.D. Moshesh Mr. M.C. Ndamse Miss S.N. Sigcau
I further wish to express the hope that the spirit of friendship , trust and mutual respect that has in the past prevailed between the Government of the Republic and your Government will continue under your new regime as the interests of these two Governments are so interwoven that should such a relationship not exist the result would be to the detriment of both. The people of the Transkei and those outside it have a fatherland common to them all. There is , in consequence , an interdependence in all matters , and in such important matters as the prosperity, strength and safety of the peoples and the land under the control of the respective Governments .
Before we adjourn the hon . the Chief Minister wishes to see all those who have been duly elected Ministers , as well as the Secretaries of the Departments concerned , at 2.15 this afternoon.
The Assembly adjourned until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 21st November , 1968. THURSDAY , 21st NOVEMBER, 1968 . The Assembly resumed at 10.30 a.m.
This interdependence between countries in
Prayers were read .
5.
so- called " new deal" which had been offered them . The Territorial Authority did not actually reject the idea of political amalgamation, but felt that it would be wise to first gain more experience of administration and direct government and to allow this new development a fair opportunity to prove its worth. My Government also feels that the time is not now ripe for such a step.
this modern-day world is of paramount importance and it is for this reason that the Republican Government is endeavouring to maintain and build up cordial relations with not only the Black states within and adjacent to its borders , but also those further afield . In the fulfilment of its promise to the Bantu peoples of the Republic and South West Africa to assist and guide them towards self- determination, both political and physical , in their own national homelands , my Government has recently taken concrete and active steps in this direction. Modified versions of the system of partial selfrule which you in the Transkei have experienced over the past five years are being extended to more and more of the other Bantu national units.
The new constitutional developments taking place in the Ciskei should not be seen as an obstacle to possible political amalgamation but rather as a means of facilitating it. The Transkei has experienced five years of comparatively autonomous rule whilst to the Ciskei this is but yet a novelty. It therefore seems that the correct time to seriously consider any move towards the political amalgamation of the two territories will be after the Ciskeian Territorial Authority and the members of its Executive Council have gained more experience in this type of constitutional rule .
On the 17th October this year the first session of the Ovamboland Legislative Council was opened by the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and of Bantu Education. It was an historical occasion of pomp and glory for the Ovambo Nation as was the opening of the first session of your First Legislative Assembly. The Ovambo Nation will also have its own civil service with seven departments ; each department being headed by a member of the Executive Council . According to their own choice none of the members of the Ovamboland Legislative Assembly are elected at the polls but all are nominated by the various tribes comprising the Ovambo Nation thus maintaining the ties with the traditional form of government that has always existed in Ovamboland .
It must again be stressed that the Republican Government will not stand in the way of the desire of the peoples of these two territories but naturally feels that it is in a position to give guidance to the peoples concerned on what it considers to be in their best interests . Wat die probleem van ekonomiese ontwikkeling in die Transkei aanbetref, dien dit gemeld te word dat net soos in die geval van die ander Bantoetuislande , sentreer dit om die vraagstuk oor die grootste moontlike indiensneming van Bantoe-arbeid in die landbou , die mynbou , die nywerhedsektor en die handel . Op die gebied van die handel is veel reeds gedoen deur die Xhosa -ontwikkelingskorporasie deur middel van lenings toegestaan aan Bantoehandelaars . Dit is veral die mynbou- en nywerhedsektore wat toenemende aandag sal moet geniet. Ongelukkig in die Transkei , sover bekend is , is daar beperkte minerale neerslae . Die klem sal dus op die stigting van geskikte nywerheidsondernemings moet val. Die stigting van sodanige nywerheidsondernemings lewer egter talle probleme op.
Similarly the first session of the Ciskeian Territorial Authority under what has been termed the "new deal " was opened on the 14th Novermber this year and the opening of the first session of the Tswana Territorial Authority under the "new deal" is scheduled for the 12th December and thereafter will follow in quick succession the South-Sotho, Venda , Swazi , Matshangana and Lebowa Territorial Authorities . In granting these other Bantu national units a measure of self-government the Republican Government was guided and encouraged by the success that has been attained in this connection in the Transkei.
Eeerstens is die koopkrag in die Transkei betreklik laag en sodanige ondernemings kan kwalik met die meer kapitaalkragtige ondernemings in die Republiek meeding tensy daar spesiale voordele aan hulle toegestaan word. Boonon mag die koste van produksie nadelig beinvloed word as gevolg van die gebrek aan goeie en voldoende kommunikasiemiddele , water , elektriese krag , ens .
I realise that for those of you who advocate the political amalgamation of the Transkei and the Ciskei it would appear that the developments in the Ciskei are an indication that my Government is averse to this step taking place . I must, however, assure you that this is not in fact the case . The question of the political
Tog is verskeie nywerheidsondernemings reeds geloods en word daar steeds na oplossings vir probleme gesoek. Oor moontlike oplossings waaraan tans aandag geskenk word , is die skepping van nywerheidsgroeipunte op uitgesoekte plekke waar daar moontlikhede vir vestiging van sekere nywerhede bestaan en waar die nodige fasiliteite om nywerheidsvestiging aan te moedig , daargestel kan word . Sodanige proeipunte kan moontlik te Butterworth en Umtata wees .
amalgamation of these two territories under one government is naturally a matter that must be agreed upon by the peoples concerned through the media of their respective governing bodies . This question was in fact raised at a meeting of the Ciskeian Territorial Authority and at the time it was decided to appoint a recess committee to go into the implications of such a political amalgamation. The Ciskeian Territorial Authority, however , subsequently decided to leave the whole matter in abeyance and to first accept the
Hierdie groeipunte kan ook as aantrekkings6.
Minister van Bantoe - administrasie en -ontwikkeling en van Bantoe - onderwys , sowel as van die hele kabinet van die Republiek van Suid- Afrika.
krag vir Blanke nyweraars dien wat tot dusver not nie veel belangstelling, om as agente van die Ontwikkelingskorporasies op te tree, geopenbaar het nie. Dit is nog steeds my Regering se beleid dat ekonomiese ontwikkeling in die tuislande in die eerste instansie moet geskied deur Bantoe- entrepreneurs of deur die Ontwikkelingskorporasies wat vir hierdie doel in die lewe geroep is.
En aan die vorige Ministers mnre . B.B. Mdledle , C.K. Madikizela en Z.N. Mabandla wil eik namens die Regering van die Republiek van Suid- Afrika en namens u almal my dang betuig aan die drie afgetrede lede van die Kabinet vir die waardevolle dienste wat hulle met waardigheid gedurende die afgelope vyf jare aan hulle volk en land gelewer het. Mag hulle altyd
U kan verseker wees dat die Republikeinse Regering geen steen onaangeroer sal laat in sy strewe om die Transkei sowel as die ander Bantoetuislande ten volle te laat ontwikkel nie .
lewens passend in die diens van hul volk gebruik. Ek bid u toe dat die Almagtige Vader in Sy Wysheid u sal lei in u beraadslaginge en u Ministers sal onderskraag in hul moeilike taak .
Ten tye van die opening van die laaste sessie van u Eerste Wetgewende Vergadering is u meegedeel dat onderhandelinge aan die gang is in verband met die moontlike instelling in een van u Departemente van ' n afdeling wat toegespits sal wees op gekoördineerde omgewings en voorHierdie aangekomende gesondheidsdienste .
Ek verklaar nou namens die staatspresident van die Republiek van Suid- Afrika hierdie eerste sessie van die Tweede Wetgewende Vergadering van die Transkei amptelik geopen .
leentheid geniet nog steeds die daadwerklike aandag van my Regering en die hoop word gedoester dat uitsluitsel hieroor in die nabye toekoms verkry sal word.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now ask the hon. the Chief Minister to express gratitude to the Honourable the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Development.
Die Regering van die Republiek was baie bly om te verneem dat die onlangse verkiesing op 'n ordelike wyse geskied het soos dit ' n beskaafde volk betaam. Hierdie is ' n aanduiding van die vrede wat in die Transkei heers en is baie bemoedigend aangesien dat waar daar vrede is, is daar vooruitgang en voorspoed .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , hon. members of the Legislative Assembly, I wish to avail myself of the opportunity afforded me by the rules of this House to express a few words of thanks to the Honourable the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Development . Sir , you have today on behalf of the State President of the Republic of South Africa officially opened this first session of the second Legislative Assembly of the Transkei . This is a new milepost in our development because it sets the Transkei Government in motion for its second five-year term of self-government. This opening ceremony follows on the recent general election we have had in the Transkei and on the election of a new Cabinet and office-bearers during the last few years . In the general election of the last month the electorate of the Transkei were faced with a clear choice between the policy of separate development and the policy of multiracialism or integration. The electorate expressed itself in no uncertain terms and I hope the world at large will take note and now accept the fact, firstly, that the policy of separate development is not being foisted on the Bantu people uni-laterally by the White South African Government; secondly , that it is in fact a policy which is acceptable to the Bantu people and which is being implemented in consultation with the Bantu people themselves; and, thirdly, that in this election the Xhosa - speaking people , being the biggest single polulation group in South Africa, emphatically endorsed the policy of separate development and rejected the policy of multiracialism or integration. A further very significant result of the recent elections is the fact that the Freedom Party, which stood for immediate independence for the Transkei , was completely eliminated at the polls . Sir , you will no doubt have noticed speculations and predictions in certain sections of the Press that our victory at the polls will be most embarrassing to the Republican Government because it will allegedly lead to increased demands for all sorts of things ,
Ek wil graag vir hierdie geleentheid gebruik maak om u almal geluk te wens met u verkryging van lidmaatskap in hierdie Vergadering . Ek wil dan ook die nuwe kabinet van die Transkei geluk wens met hul verkiesing tot lede van die hoogte regeringsliggaam in die Transkeise staat. Dit is voorwaar 'n groot eer om deur u kollegas gekies te word tot vervulling van die hoë en verantwoordelike pligte wat verbonde is aan die verskillende departement waaroor u die beheer sal hê. Die Transkeise volk het u vereer deur u te verhef tot ' n baie verhewe posisie en u kan slegs hierdie eer waardig wees indien u die wense van die volk respekteer . Ek weet dit is nie moontlik om aan alles wat die kieser of die lid van die stam vra, gehoor te gee nie, aangesien sommige vertoë wat van tyd tot tyd aan u gerig word nie altyd billike versoeke is nie. Maar, deur altyd ' n ope oor te hê vir die vertoë van die nederigste lid van die volk sal u gestalte verhoog word en sal u voortdurend die respek van die volk afdwing. Die man wat met die oor van 'n vader luister , en wat met die haart van 'n vader begryp wat die volk verlang , kan ook met die roede van die vader tug wanneer dit nodig word en hy sal nie die aansien wat hy verwerf het, verbeur nie . So wil ek dan by my gelukwensinge aan die onderskeie ministers ook die waarskuwing uit dat hulle steeds naby aan hul volk moet lewe en die oor voortdurend moet hou op die hart van die volk. Aan die Hoofminister wil ek ' n besondere woord van gelukwensing oordra namens die
1.
and even a U.D.I. is forecast. It actually sometimes looks as if we are being incited or instigated by certain newspapers or individuals to do certain things . I want to avail myself of this opportunity to allay any such fears . The Transkei Government is a responsible government and the Republican Government is our best friend and benefactor . We are busy implementing a system of government in South Africa founded on the policy of separate development. We whole-heartedly endorse this policy as being the only policy whereby the different races of South Africa can live side by side in peace and harmoney. This policy ensures that each racial group will have full political rights and the maximum progress and development in its own part of our common fatherland . We are partners in the implementation of this policy and the Transkei surely does not intend to embarrass the Republican Government with all sorts of premature and ill -conceived demands. It is correct that we intend to develop to full independence in the Transkei but we intend to achieve our aims through friendly negotiation with the Republican Government. We will therefore from time to time , as we have done in the past, approach the Republican Government for further financial responsibilities , but this will be done in a spirit of goodwill and mutual trust. We also realise that independence would be a hollow shell if it is not accompanied by higher agricultural activity, by increased employment opportunities , by adequate educational facilities , by a decent standard of living for all the people and by a viable economy for our country. We will consequently give priority to these basic prerequisites - namely, the development of our country and the uliftment of our people - and not occupy our minds unduly at this early stage with thoughts of an independent but undeveloped and economically enslaved Utopia. Sir , an atmosphere of security , peace and contentment amongst our people is a necessity and an essential prerequisite for sound administration, proThis gress and development in the Transkei . Government will consequently have no truck with rabble -rousers , leftist instigators , communistic agitators or terrorist infiltrators . We therefore pledge ourselves to stand by South Africa with all the means at our disposal if ever our independence is threatened or is at stake . Sir , we thank you for your opening address today. We also ask you to convey our greetings and our sincere appreciation to the State President the Prime Minister of the Republic and the Government of the Republic of South Africa for all that they have done and are still doing for the Transkei . Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
It is suggested that you enter the site either at the York Road side or from Leeds Road opposite Town Hall . The Owen Street entrance will not be open to the public of the Transkei. The Assembly adjourned until further notice. TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEM 3LY PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION - 1969 The second session of the second Transkeian Legislative Assembly opened in the Assembly Hall at 10.30 a.m. on WEDNESDAY, 23rd APRIL, 1969
Prayers were read. The Government Notice summoning the Assembly was read . The Chairman announced the Honourable Mr. H.J. Klopper, Speaker of the House of Assembly of the Republic of South Africa. ADDRESS BY THE HONOURABLE MR. H.J. KLOPPER, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA Meneer die Voorsitter en Agbare Lede van die Wetgewende Vergadering: Dit is vir my 'n eer om deur die Staatspresident versoek te word om die opening van hierdie Tweede Sessie van die Tweede Wetgewende Vergadering van die Transkei te open en dit doen my ' n genoeë om u almal vandag hier welkom te heet. As Speaker van die ouer Parlement van hierdie Vergadering is ek veral bly om in staat te wees om te kan sien hoedat die Transkeise Wetgewende Vergadering funksioneer. Geoor- " deel aan verslae ontvang, was die gedrag van die lede van hierdie Vergadering in die algemeen voorbeeldig. Ek sal nietemin op 'n later stadium in my toespraak kommentaar lewer op hierdie aspek asook oor sake rakende die prosedure en die algemene funksies van ' n vergadering soos hierdie . 'n Kort opsomming van die aktiwiteite van die Transkeise Regering sedert die laaste sessie van die Eerste Wetgwende Vergadering sal egter op hierdie stadium nie onvanpas wees nie. 'n Jaar gelede , toe Sy Edele Dr. N. Diederichs , die Eerste Wetgewende Vergadering ten tye van die opening van die sewende en laaste sitting daarvan toegespreek het, het hy gekonstateer dat die status en verantwoordelikheid van enige regering ten beste bepaal kan word deur ondersoekend te let op die hantering van finansële aangeleenthede . Deur dit te sê het hy net bevestig wat die welbekende outeur , Durell , in sy work " Parliamentary Grants " eens geskryf het, naamlik : dat alle staatsaksies geld kos ; dat uitgawes elke ding regeer ; dat finansies in der waarheid die fondament van ' n regering is en dat parlementêre beheer die kernbeginsel is waarop die hele finansiële stelsel gebaseer
ANNOUNCEMENT
THE CHAIRMAN : Before we adjourn I wish to make this announcement : This afternoon the Chief Minister will unveil a bronze plaque in the entrance foyer of the new Justice Building, commemorating the induction of the second Transkei Cabinet. The function will start a 2.30 p.m. and all members of the Legislative Assembly are cordially invited to attend the ceremony . There will be people to direct you to the collonade where seating accommodation will be provided for the Cabinet and members . 8.
is.
As Speaker van die Volksraad van die
Die beplanning van die nuwe Bantoedorp in die distrik Matatiele is byna voltooi en daar word gehoop dat die uitlê van strate en die voorsiening van water binne die volgende twaarlf maande voltooi sal wees .
Republiek van Suid- Afrika het ek nog nooit rede gehad om te twyfel oor die waarheid van hierdie leerstelling nie , trouens ek is nou , na baie jare se ondervinding , meer as ooit tevore oortuig van die akkuraatheid daarvan.
As gevolg van die wysiging van die Wet op die Bevordering van Bantoeselfbestuur van 1959 deur die Republikeinse Regering gedurende die laaste Parlementsitting is dit nou vir u Regering moontlik om voort te gaan met die aanstelling van amptelike verteenwoordigers in die hoof stedelike sentra van die Republiek .
Ek is bewus daarvan dat die Transkei nog in ' n groot mate afhanklik is van toekennings deur die Parlement van die Republiek van Suid-Afrika in soverre dit sy inkomste aanbetref. Ek weet ook dat sulke omstandighede maklik aanleiding kan gee tot ' n gebrek aan plaaslike belangstelling in begrotingsaangeleenthede ; dat sulke omstandighede bevorderlik is vir belastingverval , swak finansiële bestuur en kontrole en , soos die geval reeds in so baie sogenaamde opkomende Afrika-State is wat buitelandse hulp ontvang, dat onverantwoordelike regeringsbesteding gewoonlik daarin gesetel is dat fondse daar is en die verkryging daarvan net bloot afhang van vra. Ek is bly om dit wêreldkundig te maak dat hierdie toedrag van sake nie in die Transkei heers nie.
' n Belangrike mylpaal in die geskiedenis van u grondwetlike ontwikkeling is bereik gedurende Oktober 1968 toe die Algemene Verkiesing, wat plaaslik beplan en georganiseer is, suksesvol afgeloop het . ' n Verkiesing wat gehou is op ' n distriks- in plaas van ' n streeksbasis en waarvan die gladde verloop boekdele spreek vir die doeltreffendheid van die Transkeise Regeringsadministrasie ; die verantwoordelike benadering deur die hoof politieke partye en die entoesiasme en algemene gedrag van die stem -publiek as ' n geheel.
U verantwoordelike benadering tot finasiële aangeleenthede is een van die bemoedigendste aspekte van selfregering in die Transkei . Sy Edele Dr. N. Diederichs het in sy genoemde toespraak melding gemaak van die Transkei se gesonde en progressiewe finansieële beleid; hierdie vergadering se billike en verantwoordelike aanwending van fondse , sowel as die sistematiese beplanning van uitgawes deur u Regering. Hy het u Regering gelukgewens met die verantwoordelike houding wat u ingeneem het in die stryd teen inlasie en het u bedank vir u samewerking in die verband.
U Regering , deur bemiddeling van die Departement van Binnelandse Sake , het sy goeie rekord gehandhaaf in die versorging van die Oues van dae en die liggaamlik ongeskiktes (daar is nou ongeveer 70,000 sodanige begunstigdes ) , deur werksoekers in geskikte werk te plaas (ongeveer 150,000 werksoekers is in werk geplaas gedurende 1968) en deur bystand te verleen aan gestremde persone (' n gemiddelde van 15,000 gestremdes is in diens op noodlenigingswerk in droogtegeteisterde distrikte ) . Dit is die voorneme van u Regering om voort te gaan met hierdie en ander hulpskemas vir die huidige .
Spruitend uit al hierdie dinge moet en aanneem dat u kennis geneem het van Durell se teorie , en dat u dit met goeie gevolge toegepas het. Laat my dus toe om ook my gelukwense te voeg by diegene wat u gekomplimenteer het met die hoë standaarde wat u uself daargestel het in die opsig van finansiële en administratiewe aangeleenthede .
Op ekonomiese gebied is dit van belang om te meld dat daar ' n 60 persent toename in die getal handelslisensies was wat deur die Departement van Binnelandse Sake sedert 1965 uitgereik is. Dit is in der waarheid ' n aanduiding van die ekonomiese groei van die Transkei , en getuig ook van die feit dat die Transkeise entrepreneur die landelike handelstoneel sal oorheers binne die volgende paar jaar. U moet egter waak teen oormatige handel, veral op hierdie stadium wanneer dit vir private inisiatief nodig is om met die nodig sor beskerm te word.
Stam- en streeksowerhede het hul aktiwiteite in die Transkei oor die afgelope vyf jaar konstant uitgebreik soos blyk uit die feit dat waar hulle gedurende 1966/67 ' n totale finansële bystand van R37,213 ontvang het, was hull gedurende die afgelope finansiële jaar in ' n posisie om R100,000 voordelig aan te wend.
Die uitbreiding van die Departement van Onderwys is nog steeds aan die gang. Ongeveer 230 nuwe primêre en 70 na -primêre onderwysposte is goedgekeur , 4 nuwe sekondêre en meer as 60 nuwe primêre skole is opgerig , die leerplan van meer as 60 primêre skole is uitgebrei na standerd VI; en daar is op die oomblik 702 Std . VI, 55 sekondêre , 13 hoër-, 7 opleidingsen 2 vakskole. Die totale aantal leerlinge van alle skole behoort hierdie jaar die 400,000 - kerf te oorskry.
Om hierdie owerhede aan te moedig om selfs groter pogings aan te wend in diens van hul mense, word dit beplan om later hierdie jaar kursusse dwarsdeur die Transkei te hou vir hoofde van owerhede om hulle nog verder te bekwaam . Verteenwoordigers van daardie Departemente waarmee die owerhede ten nouste saamwerk sal ook die kursusse bywoon om sodanige hoofde te adviseer met betrekking tot wat verwag word van die owerhede op die onderskeie gebiede .
Hersiene leerplanne vir alle vakke in die primêre skole is vanaf die begin van hierdie jaar ingestel.
Verder het u Regering besluit om die maksimum subsidie met betrekking tot die bou van klinieke deur stamowerhede twee en ' n half maal te vermeerder .
Vordering word steeds gehandhaaf in soverre
9.
dit die opleiding van onderwysers aanbetref. Bo en behalwe die instelling van die nuwe Primêre Onderwyserssertifikaatkursus by alle opleidingskole; die bestaande spesiale derdejaarskursus vir aspirant onderwysers, word indiensopleidingskursusse vir primêre skool onderwysers ook nog voortgesit.
be made to curtail as far as possible the anticipated stock losses.
In die Transkei het die Klem altyd op akademiese opleiding geval , maar indien die behoeftes van ' n ontwikkelende gemeenskap , soos u s'n, bevredig wil word, sal dit vir u nodig wees om die huidige stelsel deeglik te laat ondersoek en te hersien in die lig van nuwe onderwysstandaarde en vereistes , in besonder in die geval van naprimêre onderwysprogramme .
The Lubisi Dam has been completed and the late rains have ensured that an appreciable volume of water has already been stored so that in the near future a further group of settlers can be established there.
U Regering is die sienswyse toegedaan dat die probleem moontlik opgelos kan word deur die instelling van ' n stelsel van gedifferensieerde onderwys wat die effektiewe onderrig van leerlinge van verskillende moontlikhede sal verseker en sodoende sal u nie alleenlik die persentasie druipelinge verminder nie , maar ook die algemene verkwisting van mannekrag beperk.
In other respects more favourable progress has been made . The co - operative associations have weathered the difficult times reasonably well and have even shown progress .
The marketing and improvement of wool reflects very favourable progress and wool marketed through the sharing sheds has realised far better prices than was otherwise the case. The forestry industry has made good proNot only have plantings increased but gress . also the marketing figures and the utilisation of timber show a strong upsurge . Furthermore the preservative plant has been modernised by the installation of pressure cylinders which not only increase production but also ensure quality.
Gedurende die 1968 -eksamen het 320 kandidate die Seniorsertifikaat- eksamen afgelê. Hiervan het 58.5 persent geslaag waarvan 28.2 persent gekwalifiseer het vir Universiteitstoelating, terwyl daar 3,478 leerling was wat die Juniorsertifikaateksamen geskry het en hiervan het 62 persent gelaag.
Although good progress can be testified to , growth in the agricultural field has been restricted by adverse weather conditions during the past years and as a result of last year's severe drought, further growth will for a time be curtailed.
'n Baie bemoedigende teken wat opgeduik het uit die 1968- eksamens was die goeie resultate wat in Afrikaans behaal is . Waar alleenlik 8 kandidate Afrikaans gedurende 1966 in die Seniorsertifikaateksamen met goeie gevolg afgelê het, het die getal aan die einde van 1968 na 132 vermeerder.
During these difficult times the value of the planning of administrative areas has been clearly evident. Under the circumstances it is the obvious course for the farmer of the Transkei to pursue in order to alleviate the effects of droughts , and of even greater importance is the strict adherence to and implementation of the plans ; otherwise all the effort and expenditure in this connection will not bear fruit.
During the past year the Transkei experienced an exceptionally severe setback in the field of agriculture. For two consecutive seasons large areas of the country experienced serious drought conditions whilst a reasonably good rainfall was received during only one of the past five years .
In addition to the task of training which is still being pursued the main task of the Department of Justice will from now onwards be the building up of a Transkeian judicature . To this end that Department is at present giving attention to the institution of judicial courts which will be entirely Transkeian courts and which in the main will serve the needs of the Transkeian judicature . The carrying out of this task must be a gradual process with the least possible disruption and with due regard to the means and ability of the Transkeian Government Service to cope with the task . In the initial stages therefore , a small beginning will be made by placing the judicial functions of tribal and regional authorities on a satisfactory footing. The Minister of Justice intends introducing a bill which will provide for the carrying out of judicial functions by regional authorities , the appointment of judicial officers for such courts and the exercising by such courts of powers relating to appeals from tribal authority courts . This will enable regional authorities in future to play their rightful part in the judicature.
With the cumulative effect of a number of poɔr years , the effect of the drought over the past year was especially severe .
For the second successive year hardly any crops were reaped over large areas , cattle losses as a result of poor grazing conditions were more than double the normal and serious problems arose in connection with the provision of water . In the drought- stricken areas the effect was such that special provision had to be made for mechanical traction power to enable lands to be ploughed . The prolonged drought has , however , prevented any appreciable benefit being derived from this measure and the position will not revert to normal for a number of years. During the past year special endeavours were made to save livestock by, amongst other means , providing fodder on a large scale . During the winter which is at hand, similar endeavours will
The Department will shortly be taking occupation of the new building in Umtata which will house both its head office and the Umtata 10.
magistrate's office . The new building does not only make provision for present office accommodation requirements , but also for future needs which will occur when the Transkei's own high court is established. The Department of Roads and Works is still actively engaged on the erection of buildings and the construction and maintenance of roads and keeps the activities of the State going by providing an effective transport service . Numerous schools secondary and higher , are at present being built or are in the planning stage . Furthermore the tribal authorities are engaged , under the guidance and with the financial assistance of the Department, and the utilisation of the services of Bantu building contractors , on the provision of primary schools. In addition , the Department is engaged on other projects such as the erection of saw-mills , offices , workshops , road and works depots and a commencement will also be made this year with the new main administrative building for the Department of Internal Affairs , Edducation and Roads and Works . Rapid progress is being made with the rebuilding, regravelling and maintenance of main, secondary and forestry roads notwithstanding the shortage of senior roads personnel who are urgently required for administration, construction and maintenance work and for training purposes . The maintenance and reparation of plant is also undertaken within the limits ofthe Department's means and ability.
A legislative assembly such as this , represents a cross - section of the people of this territory . One can therefore expect that divergent opinions , and even serious differences of opinion will occur during the deliberations . It is not only the responsibility of the Chairman to ensure that the deliberations of this Legislative Assembly shall be conducted on a plane which will uphold the highest traditions of dignity, but the members of this Legislative Assembly also have in this respect a solemn and sacred duty to fulfil . This Legislative Assembly incorporates two systems of government. On the one hand we have the Paramount Chiefs and Chiefs representing the traditional form of government of the tribes of the Transkei and on the other the elected members of the Legislative Assembly who represent modern democracy in this house . It is expected from the Paramount Chiefs and Chiefs that they conduct themselves with dignity and the same duty also rests on the shoulders of the elected members. You must remember that the dignity of a country's highest legislative authority is a reflection of the nature and character of the people who reside in that country. The legislative assembly is the show-window of the people and those who cannot properly behave in the highest legislative authority of the country are a poor advertisement for that country. To any observer - and especially those from beyond your borders who look upon your doings with criticism - the smooth conduct of the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly serves as an example of your ability to conduct your own deliberations in a competent manner without outside interference .
The erection of buildings and the making of roads are time- consuming undertakings but never the less I am pleased to be able to mention that the Department's achievements notwithstanding numerous problems , have been remarkable .
The Chairman of this Legislative Assembly has an important and responsible task to perform as so much depends on decisions taken by him . For this reason the Chairman, Deputy Chairman and other officials concerned should make a special study of the Rules of Procedure of this Assembly so that decisions in regard to procedure matters that continually arise in any Legislative Assembly, can be taken immediately and without hesitation . I therefore wish to make
Legislation dealing with a variety of subjects will be introduced during the present session of the Legislative Assembly for consideration by it.
Amongst others , legislation will be introduced in connection with the following matters : -
The amendment of legislation in regard to administration of Bantu townships in the Transkei ; The amendment ofthe Transkeian Authorities Act; Taxation matters ; Forestry matters ; The amendment of the Transkei Agricultural Development Act; The amendment of the Road Traffic Act; The amendment of the Pension Act; The amendment of the Transkeian Electoral Act; and Regional authorities in the Transkei.
a plea to the honourable members of this Legislative Assembly not to complicate the task of the Chairman.
I wish to congratulate the Government of the Transkei on the manner inwhich this Legislative Assembly has functioned up to the present. In my opinion this Assembly can be held up as an example to all nations in Africa as a model of modern parliamentary government which at the same time upholds the centuries - old traditional form of government of the people that it serves .
In my capacity as Speaker of the House of Assembly of the Republic of South Africa I would like to express a few opinions on the manner in which a legislative assembly such as this should like to express a few opinions on the manner in which a legislative assembly such as this should be managed and conducted.
I bring you the greetings and good wishes of the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa and wish to express my conviction that the responsibility and achievements of the Transkeian Government will grow greater as more and more governmental functions are transferred to it.
11.
Mr. Chairman and Members ofthe Legislative Assembly:
The new members took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly.
It is my prayer that the blessing of Amighty God will guid and sustain you in your labours and deliberations .
OBITUARY.
It is now my privilege to declare this the Second Session of the Second Legislative Assembly of the Transkei to be duly open.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday , 24th April , 1969 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , it was with a sense of shock that the members of the Assembly and the Transkeian people in general received the sudden death of the late Chief Frederick Sahlulo Lupindo of the Hlubi tribe in the Matatiele district on the 17th October , 1968. As you know, Chief Frederick Lupindo was a member of this House since its inception in 1963.
THURSDAY, 24th APRIL , 1969.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, can we have these members sitting down when we are dealing with a motion so important?
The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.
Prayers were read.
THE CHAIRMAN: sit down, please .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . THE CHAIRMAN: 2- Obituaries .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Although he was a man with a quiet disposition, he took part in the deliberations of this Assembly and his contributions to the debates went a long way in achieving the objects of this House . Chief Lupindo has been a chief of his tribe for a considerable number of years . Having visited him on several occasions , I know how his people felt about him. He had the love and respect not only of his tribesmen, but of all the people who came into contact with him. I am sure that this House regrets his passing , because we were still looking forward to further participations in the moulding of our young country, the Transkei . I move , Mr. Chairman, that a motion of condolence be sent by the Department of the Chief Minister to the wife of the deceased and the family as a whole . Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
We shall pass on to Item
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in my view it would be most unfair to deal with item 2 when elected or ex officio members of the Assembly who have not been sworn in are still outside this House . Is it not possible to deal with item 3 so that they can partake fully in these discussions , including obituaries , which will be coming before this House? I think we have already done them an injustice by excluding them yesterday from the Assembly and we can minimize that injustice now . THE CHAIRMAN: I would like to refer the House to Part IX, page 16 , rule 78 .
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the motion of the hon. the Chief Minister to the effect that a message of condolence be sent from this Assembly through his Department to the family of the deceased. It will always give us regret when a branch falls from the tree . We feel this day as if we are saying Good-bye to the late Chief Lupindo . He was a quiet member of this Assembly. I shall not go into the details as to the type of food of which he partook as a quiet man in the Assembly. We on this side of the House did not find in him any expressions which were unpleasant to us . Where he did not agree with us in anything , he did so in a quiet and respectable manner. I , too, would like to convey a message of condolence to the Hlube tribe and to members of his family on his passing. As my last word I will say : They also serve who only stand and wait.
MR. GUZANA: I move accordingly , Sir, and reading rule 78, the preamble says " .... shall in accordance with the need thereof.... " and I think the need is to have all our members inside this House . THE CHIEF Chairman.
MINISTER :
I second, Mr.
Agreed to . THE CHAIRMAN : We shall therefore proceed to item 3 , Administration of Oaths . The Secretary shall call out the names of those who are going to take the oath and they will come forward one by one, each member escorted by two members . ADMINISTRATION OF OATH TO NEW MEMBERS THE SECRETARY: will take the oath:-
Will the hon. members
The motion was carried, the members standing in silence as a mark of respect to the late Chief F.S. Lupindo.
The following members
Chief D.D.P. Ndamase Chief M. Diko Chief M.B. Matanzima Chief M. Dalasile Chief C. Nomagqwatekana Chief M. Dlamini Mr. E.A. Pinyane..
MESSAGE THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , this telegram was received by me as Chairman of the Assembly from our former Secretary for the Interior:-
12 .
"Greetings and best wishes for happy and profitable session - Midgley" ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHAIRMAN : I have the following announcement to make :- I wish to inform the House that notices of motion may be submitted today until Monday, 28th April, 1969. Thereafter no notices of motion will be accepted except with the leave of the House. Members will please note that questions will be answered on Tuesday. Notices of question may be delivered to the Secretary not less than five clear days before the Tuesday on which an answer is required . APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEE THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Chief Minister has appointed the following to these committees :-
of anticipation as those looming in the eyes and on the faces of the Government. (Laughter) The ladling out will be done this afternoon and I now move : "That this House has no confidence in the Government. " MR. R. MADIKIZELA: I second . THE CHAIRMAN : I now call for other notices of motion.
3. The honourable W.C. Singata gave notice to move :- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish a General and T.B. Hospital in the district of Libode . " 4. The honourable W.C. Singata gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of giving Africans Identity Cards instead of Reference Books . "
(1) Committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements:- The hon. the Minister of Education (Chairman) , the Minister of Justice, Chief Botha M. Dumalisile , Mr. K.M.N. Guzana , Mr. H.H. Zibi.
5. The honourable N. Jafta gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to allow wives of Africans working in big cities to stay with their husbands if they wish to do so. "་་
(2) Committee on Public Accounts : - Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , L. Chemane , V.S. Reve , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and Mr. R. Madikizela. (3) Business Committee : - The Chief Minister (Chairman) , the Minister of Roads and Works , the Minister of the Interior , the Chairman of the House , Messrs . T.E. kaTshunungwa and K.M.N. Guzana.
6.
The honourable N. Jafta gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to repeal Proclamation R400 . "
Agreed to.
1. The honourable L.Z. Majija gave notice to move : - "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government or alternatively on its own to subsidise such food stuffs as mealies , kaffir - corn etc. in the Transkei ."
NOTICES OF MOTION THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that in terms of rule 165 of the Standing Rules of Procedure in this House , rule No. 67 be suspended so as to allow the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Guzana , to move his traditional motion of no confidence in the Government. Mr. Chairman, rule 165 reads as follows :"Any Rule of Procedure or Sessional Order or Orders of the Assembly may be suspended on motion made after notice , such motion being carried by a majority of votes : Provided that in cases of urgent necessity (of which the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall be the judge) any such rule or order may with the consent of the Assembly be suspended upon motion made without notice . " And rule 67 reads : " Except as otherwise provided in these standing rules , no substantive motion shall be moved in the Assembly unless one clear day's notice has been given in the case of a motion by a member of the Cabinet and six clear days in the case of a motion by another member. " I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
8. The honourable N. Jafta gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this House the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of consulting the X.D.C. with a view to discontinuing the sale of Jabulani . " 9. The honourable N. Jafta gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to erect a Health Educators College or to have this branch attached to the technical college being built. " 10. The honourable N. Jafta gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to repeal the Immorality Act. " MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I may crave your indulgence , Sir , I am convinced that this Assembly is a privileged one and anyone who seeks to advertise his wares inside this Assembly must have obtained the permission of those who control the affairs of
MR. R. MSENGANA: I second. Agreed to. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have never seen such expressions
13.
this Assembly. I am mentioning this because I see before me an infinitesimal notebook advertising a particular brand of liquor. I am not aware that such permission to advertise in this House has been granted to the firm concerned , otherwise this House would be fully aware ofthat arrangement. Probably the over - zealousness of their agents has been responsible for the distribution of these small books . Whatever may be the position, at least the deliberations of this House are such that they cannot be contained in this finger-nail notebook , and it is in my view their idea not only that they should advertise their wares , but that they should be useful to us in this advertisement. If they seek to achieve both these things , I suggest that they provide us with a sizeable notebook which at east would be of some practical value . If they have done this without the consent of those who have to give such consent, I think this irregularity is such as to be frowned upon by this House . We might find ourselves faced on our tables with all sorts of advertisements which will not help us in any way in this Assembly, and we are caught here as a market for traders . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I stand up to express my agreement with the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . It is true that the dignity of this House is affected by circularisation of these pamphlets , but I wish it noted that neither myself nor the Secretary of my Department know anything about this and I wish to assure the hon. members that future measures will be taken to avoid a recurrence of this matter. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , I am very grateful to the hon. member for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. Since there are no further notices of motion coming forward for today I shall adjourn the House until this afternoon. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. NO CONFIDENCE
that it felt these men had not been pulling their weight under the yoke of the TNIP . Once a Government begins to jettison its own supporters then there is something wrong in the policy of that Government. Alternatively, it has found out that these men have defected and we are hoping during the course of this Assembly that they will indicate their defection even if they form a third party in this House . This Government, by so doing , has shown the world that it has very little faith in its own supporters , even in the Ministers who are supposed to implement its own policy . And I do not blame the Government, because the facts are piling up against the policy which they are propagating and they cannot suggest to this House that there is any hope of a realisation of some of the aims and objects about which they have spoken to the electorate of the Transkei . Indeed , not many months ago the hon. the Chief Minister , accompanied by the hon.. the Minister of the Interior , went to the Republic hat in hand asking that the Republican Government and the industrialists should employ more Transkeians and give them preference in the Republic . One finds it difficult to equate this move on the part of the Government with influx control and the ideal of separating the races in South Africa. In fact, we have said in the past that whilst the members of this Cabinet will speak pro- apartheid in the Transkei , once they get out of the Transkei they speak multi - racia· lism . If indeed you thought you were doing good by going into the Republic to ask for more jobs for Africans , as indeed you are doing good , then you have betrayed your policy and are saying what this side of the House has been saying for One cannot accept this the past five years . political somersault every now and again with the view to catching the public eye and that of the suburban African by wearing the cloak of multiracialism outside the Transkei and showing yourselves the Jekylls you are once you get back to the Transkei . Now, how can we have confidence in a Government that is playing the Jekyll and Because if you contend that the Hyde game? races in the world of Never-never shall be separated, it is high time you realised now that South African society is becoming more and more integrated . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS:
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak to the motion standing in my name : That this House has no confidence in the Government . Soon after the general election, one official pulled my leg and said: "I hope you won't fall into the mistake ofthe Leader of the Opposition in the other House by moving a motion of no confidence in the Government after a general election . " My reply to him was simply this that if Ifound that after the general election I still have the same plague upon me, what can I do ? Hence I now move this motion and speak to it, and probably even before the Opposition opens its mouth under this head the Government has in its own way indicated its lack of confidence in some of its members . When the Cabinet was formed late last year , we found that the Government had openly and deliberately indicated to some of the members of the old Cabinet that it had no confidence in them. (Laughter) In effect, the TNIP told this House
How?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Explain it.
The Chief Minister wants MR. GUZANA : to know how, and I want to remind him of the opening of the Volkskas building when he occupied the front seat with the Commissioner- General next to him , with Dr. Malan , the Chairman of You spoke from the same platform ; Volkskas . you spoke through the same mike ; you spoke the same language . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He spoke Xhosa . MR. GUZANA : I further quote the example from Hansard of the Republican Government. A report came through the Daily Dispatch to the effect that the Minister of Railways had announced boldly to the Legislative Assembly that he had employed an additional 8,000 to 9,000 - odd Africans in White jobs in the S.A. R. & H.
14.
That is not integration, MR. GUZANA : because if you want integration you are going to have inter-marriage .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Is that integration? MR. GUZANA: So the African is becoming more and more involved in the economic build-up of South Africa as a whole, and the fact of the matter is that the economy of South Africa will never develop, will never grow, will never expand unless the African is there working side by side with the White man. I know you think that multi-racialism is synonymous with integration and I think the obsession on you is biological . (Laughter) That is far from the truth . Multiracialism recognizes the fact that each race can contribute as a complement to the other race in such a way that the races pull together for the common good of both.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : MR . GUZANA :
No, if you invite ladies to
a party you are having. Don't try to run THE CHIEF MINISTER : with the hare and chase with the hounds . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: you going to stop it?
How are
MR. GUZANA: I suppose you would stop it with the Immorality Act, but I have an innate belief in the pride of the races which has kept them apart over the years .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is the narrow view. What about the broad one? MR. GUZANA: There is no broader one than that. There is no more detailed one than that. The next one is the integration which is your obsession.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Has your race participated in the making of laws over the past 300 years ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you opposed to racial integration? MR. GUZANA : I have stated the policy of the Democratic Party time and again in this House . THE CHIEF MINISTER : South Africa is a multi-racial country - you cannot run away from it. That is what we Agreed . MR. GUZANA: have been trying to tell you . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Good! Come now
MR. GUZANA : There has been participation on a consultative basis. (Interjections ) There There have been have been representatives . ives Parliament; we Cape the in representat have had the Natives ' Representative Council acting for and on behalf of the Africans; you had the United Transkeian Territories General Council to which proclamations relating to Africans were referred ; and on this consultative basis the African has been able to influence to a degree the legislation in this country. We do not say we are going to mark time there . The process of multi- racialism is an evolving one and the ultimate will be where you have a parliament where you have representatives from all races in South Africa, where your Provincial Administration and your local councils will have representatives from the various racial groups , and that racial representation will be incidental because the people will so despise this prejudice cultivated by "apartheid" that they will select the best man for the job irrespective of his colour . Are the homelands able to receive , I ask you, the rejects , the people coerced back The answer is definitely to the homelands? No , and I take it from the hon. the Chief Minister himself when addressing his congress early this week. He said they are going to cry for more land . At the last session of the first Assembly , a Government member moved a motion seeking to incorporate places like Maclear within the boundaries of the Transkei. What is all this land hunger if the Transkei , the Bantu homeland , is big enough to receive even its own citizens , It is your acceptance of a let alone others ? circumscribed geographical area as a homeland for the African that makes you cry out for more land. I have been looking through the Transkei and observing the fact that families average five to six children , so that in about 18 years ' time you will have an increased population five times the present one. I ask if it is physically possible to accommodate those people in the
to your policy. MR . GUZANA: Being multi- racial, South Africa has used every race to make possible the achievements it has made up to the present moment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Don't run away from racial integration, which is your policy . MR. GUZANA : The progress that South Africa has made would never have been achieved without the help of these races working together one with the other. One of your pet theories is that the homelands will be adequate to absorb the rejects of the urban areas of the Republic and those who are sent home either with coercion or with mild persuasion. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now, in your socalled multi - racial South Africa, who should make the laws of that country? MR . GUZANA : If you ask that question you don't understand what multi- racialism is. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: you don't understand .
That is "social " .
Just as
MR. GUZANA: If you understood what we understand by multi- racialism, it will be politically.... GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Socially. MR . GUZANA: Socially, yes; industrially, economically, in the sports field , in international relations .
Transkei .
CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , according to the Rules of Procedure it says that except in the case of a
THE MINISTER, OF EDUCATION : Yes , that is integration.
15.
Minister and any member in charge of a draft bill , no member may exceed 30 minutes in speaking to any question. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I have allowed the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to speak at length. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I must compliment the hon. member from across the floor for bringing up this matter. ( Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What policy? MR. GUZANA : .... because I am convinced that this Government is an irresponsible Government. It has an incompetent arrogance which negates mutual co- operation between itself and the Republican Government . I refer to the incident which involved the Department of Education and the Department of Bantu Administration and Bantu Education of the Republic .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put a question. Under what rule are you allowing this man to proceed with his speech? THE CHAIRMAN: It has always been the practice to allow the Leader of the Opposition to speak for more than 30 minutes .
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member , Will the hon. members stop passing papers from one member to another.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, in order to assist you I move that this rule be waived in order to allow the member to proceed with his motion.
MR. GUZANA: According to newspaper reports there had been no consultation with this Government on the appointment of the Secretary of the Department of Education and when the Republican Government became aware of this they made overtures to this Government to overlook a very (shall I say) incidental irregularity which would not undermine the state of this Cabinet and , according to a statement by the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration in the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town, there was consultation before the official got here .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second , M. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. MR . GUZANA : I take it it is agreed . Mr. Chairman and hon. members..... CHIEF P. JOZANA : On a point of order, I want to know whether the hon. member will continue speaking until sundown tomorrow .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Can you quote this?
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I am not a fool . I know when to say No to him. MR .
GUZANA :
Transkei , and that is Republican Government policy. Isn't this again a negation of the fundamental policy of separate development as followed by this Government ? Probably we might say that the policy could well work in the hands of other people , but certainly not with this Government....
MR. GUZANA : I am saying it. better take me as your authority.
Mr. Chairman, even the
tragedies of Shakespear had a comic relief. (Laughter) I still say, because of the increase in homeland population, without taking into account those who are returning to the homelands , it is impossible physically to accommodate them within the boundaries of the homelands . And you are going to have a population explosion situation in the very near future , and if "apartheid " has as one of its main objects the separation of the races, how will it be possible to accommodate this excess population within the homeland? When first we came here in 1964 the hon. the Chief Minister put his foot down on White entrepreneurs investing in the Transkei because , first of all, this would be a negation of the idea to separate the races and, secondly, it would mean that the White entrepreneurs would aquire vested interests in the homelands . Latish in 1965 and early in 1966 , we saw him sliding into the stream of the policy of the Opposition.
You had
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATIQN :, Quote the statement of the Minister of Bantu Administration in Cape Town. MR. GUZANA: But this Cabinet, having been so approached diplomatically , decided to behave like an obstinate mule . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are we obliged to take any officer from the Republic? What does "consultation" mean? MR. GUZANA : They were approached , but they thought they would look big by being obstinate, infringing one of the delicate rules of give and take in diplomatic relations between governments.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : by Mr. Stone?
Were you briefed
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : How?
Were you briefed by the MR. GUZANA: present Secretary for Education ?
MR. GUZANA: I hope the hon. member who says "How?" will learn from the dog how to bark. (Laughter) At the time the Chief Minister said White capital would be allowed into the Transkei under certain conditions , but the development has gone further . It is the White etrepreneur himself now who will come into the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What objection have you to the present Secretary?
MR. GUZANA: What I am saying is that this Cabinet is unable to handle delicate matters 16.
1
between this Government and the Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who can handle them better ? MR. GUZANA : To put it colloquially , they will always put their foot in it. They will tread where angels fear to tread, and I suppose they must have felt very big and broad-chested when the Republican Government graciously allowed them to have their boyish way. I am not talking about personalities involved in this shambles of diplomacy I am speaking of the principles involved when one Government deals with another Government ; and how can a lively Opposition (the 25 quorum of this Assembly) (Laughter) accept this Government and have confidence in it when it is operating on a constitutional hybrid between tribalism and democracy? You see , where you have chiefs in a legislative body like this, and in that body you have a minority of elected members , how are you going to have a democratic system of government ? Because if it is going to be a democratic government , it must be a government based upon the will of the people which is expressed through the ballot box. Thus you have two opposed forces a force of conservatism represented by ex officio chiefs and headmen , and a force of progress represented by elected members clashing every time , and the tribal majority will always have its way over the democratic , elected members of this Assembly. Therefore let us not deceive ourselves into the false conception that we have a democratic legislative assembly, because it is not so. Here we have the chiefs and the headmen who roll into this Chamber and create a constitutionally protected majority of 64 members . Probably that is the only way to (Laughter) arouse their interest inthis discussion, by telling them what position they occupy. I must make a golden exception that there are those chiefs who know how to represent the views of their people , and they are with the Opposition (Laughter There is need for a constitutional overhaul of this Assembly , of your regional authorities and your tribal authorities in order that we may have a democratic representation in these bodies which are supposed to handle matters directly affecting the subjects of these territories , and I do not think these authorities know anything about land and land administration. I do not know if this is the experience of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry , but I think a Government member has stirred up a hornets ' nest for him . I am referring to the rather ironical situation which has arisen in the constituency of Flagstaff. Early in the life of the first Legislative Assembly the Government and the Opposition were at variance over what was then called "rehabilitation" and what is now known as " soil conservation" . The Government sought to impose this scheme on the people ; the Opposition sought to have it implemented on a voluntary basis .
consultation and co-operation of the people who would be affected , before a rehabilitation scheme was introduced . That motion was carried in this House and the Government fell into line , and we have been under the impression that where the people have accepted a soil conservation scheme , no-one will go in there to teach the people otherwise. Such a person would not only be obstructing what we regard as a very good policy regarding agriculture , but would also be stirring the people against their own wise judgement in accepting the policy. What happened in Flagstaff? A certain area accepted a soil conservation scheme; consultation was held between the Department's officials and the tribal authority, and the scheme was then being implemented . Then we had the general elections and , preceding election day, the Government nominated and later endorsed and connived at a platform No rehabilitation, no soil conwhich said: As the servation in the Flagstaff district. African puts it, I smelt it in the air that a report had been submitted on the campaigning of this particular individual to the proper authorities , and the reaction was that this is a democratic country and the people can say what they please. Handling an inflammable topic like soil conservation in the Transkei , one would certainly jump into this Legislative Assembly almost before the electorate had cast its vote . After this hon. member had been elected , the report is that he went to the area where the residents had accepted a soil conservation scheme and spoke against it. He agitated against the wise decision of the people . The soil conservation scheme in that area has had to be suspended. Now we must know from this Government whether or not it supports soil conservation schemes , or are we going to have political opportunists amongst Government supporters who will say anything to get to this Assembly, speaking even to the detriment and advising people against their own interests. These are members of the Government. I am reminded of an incident in Lower Tyira in the Qumbu district where there has been agitation against the introduction of soil conservation , and the hon. the Chief Minister during his electioneering campaign told these people he would be coming back to find out whether or not they had indeed accepted rehabilitation. He had his eye on the votes in the Qumbu district and when he got back here he sent to an hon. member who is now in this House , who is a chief, advising them that those people in Lower Tyira never Now, a responsible accepted rehabilitation. Chief Minister would have said : If the records show these people had not accepted rehabilitation, isn't there a way by which we might induce them into accepting it? But the opportunity to beat the drum against soil conservation with an eye on the vote was too tempting for this Chief Minister to resist. Fortunately, the voters in the Qumbu district were wise to the tricks and they did not vote for the candidates of the TNIP . This side of the House has always stood for the industrialisation of the Transkei ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that imposition? Don't tell lies .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: And rehabilitation ? MR . GUZANA : You go and read your 1964 Hansard and you will know. At that session the Opposition put in a motion seeking to have
MR. GUZANA: Yes, and rehabilitation. It has always stood for rehabilitation, you know that
17 .
MR. GUZANA: There is an African electrician now who will not handle electrical business because the garage is selling at this ridiculously low price.
very well , and I will put my head on a block that none of our members will every urge anybody to resist rehabilitation but we will tell the people to accept it as a policy of saving the soil. It is they who have to decide . We have sought the industrial development of the Transkei as part of the Republic of South Africa and we have been told that the Xhosa Development Corporation is responsible for giving impetus to this industrial , agricultural , economic development. Last year we were given a gentle rap on the knuckles at Abrahamskraal and asked not to speak critically of the XDC.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: accept the rap on the knuckles ?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Who is he? MR. GUZANA: If I give you his name, what are you going to do about it? You could not care less what happens even to the African. I am complaining and this complaint I lay at the foot of the Government against the lack of credit at these XDC controlled stations , and probably you may ask why I castigate you. You are not the XDC , are you? I know you are working in collaboration with the XDC and you cannot deny that. I challenge you to do so. You have been lending money to the XDC . Even without literature I know that. (Laughter)
Did you
MR. GUZANA : As good boys we kept quiet , but we asked the officials of the XDC to supply us with information and data relating to their activities . This was promised to us but we have not had any literature from the XDC up to the Yet the XDC is so closely present moment. involved in the Transkei , is so much with us that we are bound to bump into its activities in the Transkei in the industrial sector, in the economic sector , and we are bound to come to this House and ask what the XDC is doing. (Interjections) Isn't this Government working hand in glove with the XDC ? Isn't this Government obliged to give a report to this House on its work with the XDC in the Transkei ? (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you opposed to the principle of having a financing body like the Xhosa Development Corporation? MR. GUZANA : I would never object to any aim that will give financial injection into the Transkei, but I shall object to a body that has a two-way action. It injects and extracts. I shall not belabour the activities of the XDC further, because I am still awaiting literature from them. Dropping out of the sky I got this report literally dropping from the skies. I am not going to use it against this Government, so don't get frightened. (Laughter) When this Government brought in the Liquor Bill it introduced legislation giving a monopoly to the XDC in handling Bantu beer.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA : Now, we are bound to comment on these matters as we see them. I am referring to the trading activities of the XDC in the Transkei -- trading which is always described as being of a temporary nature . But you know, a sickness is acute for a time and then you die after that and the sickness no longer persists in your dead body . Here is an advertisement by a local garage - a concern controlled by the XDC : Car and portable radios and cassette recorders available to the public at less 33 % the selling price of this merchandise - so that if a car radio were valued at R90 you could buy it at this garage for R60 . Now, how is any trader other thanthis particular garage able to supply the same goods at a selling price less 33 % %? The XDC is supposed to take over these businesses but at the same time , before it takes them over, it strangulates them and emaciates them. Thus the business deteriorates and when the XDC takes over and looks at the books of the business for the five years preceding the offer , there is a very low turnover. Now what is the XDC really doing on this particular point? The tragedy of the whole thing is that the other man who is competing with the XDC is financing the XDC, making it possible to sell these commodities at less 33 % in order to strangle him . It is a vicious circle. (Interjections) What is worrying me is that it is hitting the Africans at the present moment.
nature , people are killed as a result of overindulgence in this beer, mothers forget that they had on their backs babies when they went to this beer hall in the morning and they leave these babies behind. All the decency is removed from an individual. I am reminded of an African woman who undressed at midday, rolled up all her clothing and put it on her head , and when asked what was the matter she said : Well , I am carrying my clothes home. The areas round these beer halls are becoming places of exploitation and prostitution and I wonder if decent women and men can keep quiet whilst a Government connives at a practice which is degrading the African nation to the extent that beer halls are doing at the moment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: at the garage .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about the White hotels? Why don't you object to them ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that? There is no such thing.
MR. GUZANA: And the XDC has a monopoly... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Quote !.
MR. GUZANA: ...a monopoly of beer processing in the Transkei. It is based in Butterworth and it has huge tankers distributing this poison in the various municipalities of the Transkei. And what do we find in these VMB and municipal areas where there are these beer halls? There are assaults of a grievous bodily
There is no African
18.
in the Transkei who voted for individuals who produced manifestoes. (Interjections ) Members on this side aligned themselves with the policy enunciated by the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland.
MR. GUZANA: I won't object to the White hotels because I am told the hon. the Chief Minister has acquired a taste for what comes from the White hotels. (Laughter) But we are concerned over the present position and we want this Government to do something about the present intolerable situation. I shall invite the members of the Government side to Jabulani down the line here , but I will stand about a mile away and let you have the experience . (Laughter) No decent person can tolerate this sort of thing that is happening in the Transkei . No matter how much money we get through the XDC from trading as proprietors of beer halls , we would rather be poor than lose our sense of decency and sense of shame. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Just for the election of Chief Minister , and after the election he produced his manifesto. No, you are mistaken. I MR . GUZANA : know the manifesto came out before that and it was accepted by people who ultimately supported the Democratic Party. I say this is the first time we are having a general election based on party politics , and as an exercise in politioal voting I think it has been a success , but I don't accept the fact that your majority of elected members is an indication of the conviction of the people of the Transkei that they believe in the policy of separate development.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am worried about two members of this House , one on each side . I want to draw your attention to rule 34. Carry on.
You lost about THE CHIEF MINISTER : 60,000 votes in the St. Mark's district.
MR. GUZANA : We therefore have no confidence in a Government that will connive at this sort of thing, and we say this Government will bear the blame if in a generation all the people who are supposed to be responsible are irresponsible people who cannot at a later stage take on responsibility. The hon. the Chief Minister asked why I do not object to White liquor . I gave one reason, and the other is that an African hotel is in the process of being built and it will have on- consumption and off- sales facilties , and the XOC will be strategically occupying the topmost floor of that building.
MR. GUZANA : We lost those votes because a candidate who wanted to stand for the Democratic Party was told : We shall see if anybody will stand for the Democratic Party in this area! That is what we got. (Laughter) And that is a silent vote which has not been cast and which cannot be claimed by either side . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : worth?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you opposed to the hotel?
MR . GUZANA : Neither side can claim votes in the Butterworth area either because those votes were not cast. Add to this first experience in casting votes according to party allegiance the intimidation that characterized these elections . As the majority of the chiefs are with the Government, so the majority of the agents intimidating the voters was in favour of the Government.
We are speaking of White MR. GUZANA: liquor. Therefore the hon. the Chief Minister will be able to entertain his frineds at that hotel. My own experience with the Chief Minister is that he does like to be in with the boys. Now, Sir, we come to the (Laughter) general election, which brings rather sadistic smiles to the faces of the members opposite . (Laughter) The TNIP has been standing on the highest mountain in the Transkei and shouting: "Hurray, the TNIP policy has been endorsed and multi-racialism has been rejected by the electorate of the Transkei . "
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You always said the chiefs had no people. MR. GUZANA : They have subjects whom they have intimidated . We have our own suspicions that the illiterate voters who sought to vote for A found their vote marks placed opposite B. In some polling stations when some people came to vote for A, they were told by the polling officers : That is not the sort of thing that is being done at this polling station.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. GUZANA: I think we had better place the results of the last general election in their proper perspective in order to interpret them correctly. Firstly, it is the first time that the Transkei electorate has gone to the polls on a party policy basis in a general election. THE CHIEF MINISTER : it today?
And in Butter-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where was that?
That is an insult.
MR. GUZANA : In one station a voter was told to walk out. He had no chance to cast his vote.
Are you admitting
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are insulting the integrity of the polling officers.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That the other one was not fought on the principle of separate development?
MR. GUZANA: I am surprised the hon. the Chief Minister should say that. I think this aura of sanctity which you want to wrap around officers of the Government will blind you to
MR . GUZANA: We have never said so. What we said was that the first general election indicated the political allegiance of the electorate 19.
irregularities , and it is our duty as the Opposition to point out these irregularities, and it is our duty as the Opposition to point out these irregularities to the Government. I think we have come to a stage where we will say: Literate or illiterate , a person should mark his ballot paper and have no assistance whatsoever.
contemplate making available this food to all children, and not necessarily school-going children, if it is motivated by the drought conditions ? I say you have failed and you will continue to fail to separate the races.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are not the Government, to tell us what to do.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall allow the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to continue .
MR. GUZANA : No , we are not the Government and we know why we don't get most of our men in. It is because the elections are in the hands of the Government. The whole machinery is in the hands of the Government. You are manipulating the machinery.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , please allow me just a sideline , very short. Owing to an optical illusion we started at 2.15 without the stenographer. She was not late. We anticipated her and I would like it to be recorded that we regret any action on our part which would infer that she was. May I suggest that the committee responsible for arrangements reserve a parking place for her here so that she has not to go round and round the building in order to come in in time.
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is an insult to the officers who do this work. What about Qumbu?
MR. GUZANA : If you refer to Qumbu and Mqanduli , I want to say that the queerest things were said about our candidates in those two districts , coming from none other than the hon. the Chief Minister. The Chief Minister in Mqanduli sought to detribalize the representation there. He said the candidate , who is the Leader of the Opposition there , is a foreigner.
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , you have failed to separate the races ; you have failed to disentangle the economic entanglement of the races in South Africa ; you have failed even to make a show of success of this Bantustan, the Transkei. You have failed to separate the finances of South Africa according to races and now I am led to speak about the sales tax which has been imposed by the Republican Government on all and sundry , including people in the Transkei. In view of the fact that the Republican
THE CHIEF MINISTER : From the Ciskei , not the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA : He went on to say he is a picked-up child of a location. I think we need to keep ourselves clean of this sort of thing and when it comes from one of the highest members of the Government, if gold rusts , what shall iron do? THE CHIEF MINISTER : when I spoke there ?
Government will be getting a substantial income from the African population as a result of this sales tax, has this Government thought it fit to ask for a bigger subsidy, or are they quite satisfied with playing marbles and trying to settle themselves into a very narrow financial cloak ? Has it raised any hue and cry over the fact that its own subjects are going to be heavily mulcted under this sales tax ?
Where were you
OPPOSITION MEMBER : He was away.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not agitators. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Will you say we are diplomatic if we raise a hue and cry?
MR. GUZANA: Yes , his strategy is to speak behind one's back, never when one is present. Now, we speak of the relief fund administered by this Government in respect of the drought. Does this Government really maintain that 25 cents a day is adequate to feed a human being? It is quite strange that a thing which seeks to help people becomes an insult to those people and becomes of no practical benefit whatsoever . The principle of giving relief to drought- stricken areas is a very good and sound one , and we endorse it whole-heartedly, but we condemn the manner in which that principle is realised , involving manual labour for women and girls with very little remuneration . I shall just touch on the feeding scheme briefly and say that this is most welcomed by this side of the House , but, you see , the trouble with this Government is that like the crab it can never walk in a straight line but must be walking sideways , even when it is doing some good. Why don't you have this feeding scheme applicable in all districts ? Kwashiokor is a condition you find in all areas of the Transkei , drought- stricken area or no drought-stricken area; and does the Government
MR. GUZANA : If I say you should raise a hue and cry, I suppose you think you should stand on top of the Town Hall ? I say you should raise a hue and cry, and if you are Cabinet Ministers you will handle the matter diplomatically and we will want to know what you have done. I quote from the 18th April issue of the Financial Mail where there is a list of some of the commodities that are going to be burdened with this tax. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Is that a tax of this House? Have we any control over the Republic's taxes? MR. GUZANA: You put it to me that this is not a tax imposed by this Government , and I put it to you that you are not going to argue the case before the Republican Government. I have got to teach you. Even if the Government side does not use toothpaste , we use toothpaste and it is to be taxed 20%. 20.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Refer that to Parliament in Cape Town. Why aren't you in Parliament in Cape Town?
from membership of this Assembly so that the less fortunate will benefit from it. THE CHIEF MINISTER : And you should also stop sucking the people , calling for fees at Mqanduli - then I will agree.
MR. GUZANA: I would have been there long ago if it hadn't been for you.
MR. GUZANA : If that is sucking, then I don't know what the legal profession is for . I am reminded of the mouse which sought to jump up to catch hold of a hanging piece of flesh from the topmost branch. When it could not reach it, it said : In any event it has gone bad. Isn't this a case of sour grapes for the Chief Minister , that he was not able to qualify as an attorney and a notary public ? (Laughter) My only regret is that this thing is becoming traditional .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are clamouring for Bungas and all that. MR. GUZANA : Here is another commodity that the Government side doesn't use · soap , 10%. They will certainly not use knives , forks and spoons, because they use their fingers to eat with. We are going to feel a 10% increase on this side of the House . Thenthere is another shoe polish , 5%. There is nothing in item any Government taxing its subjects....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I would never practise . I am a traditional chief.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, bring him to the point. This is nothing to do with this Government.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I firmly declare that this House has no confidence in this Government. I know that some of the members opposite were wholly apprehensive from beginning to end, but I have by- passed them . I still have the last chance under this motion of no confidence , believe you me!
MR. GUZANA: Probably this Government will bring in a bill introducing taxation and I feel that if this Government is aware of its responsibilities to its people this tax may well justify a request for a greater subsidy than the Transkei is receiving at the present moment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after listening to this dull debate of the hon. member, I move the adjournment of the House . (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why do you anticipate what the Government is going to do? MR. GUZANA: It is not that I am anticipating. It will not do anything unless we tell it to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. The debate was adjourned .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who are you to tell the Government ?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 25th April, 1968.
MR. GUZANA : Over the years since 1963 this Government has rejected every suggestion made by the Opposition and in the next year or two it has implemented the suggestions . For instance , I do not expect any reaction from you until two years from now, (Laughter) and I am anticipating that day by giving you a reminder now. The burden that is going to fall on the citizens of South Africa is that there is not a corresponding wage increase which will meet this tax.
FRIDAY, 25th APRIL, 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Monday , 28th April , 1969, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a sum not exceeding R23,570,000 towards the services of the Transkei for the financial year ending 31st March, 1970 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What has that to do with this country? You are out of order .
MR. GUZANA : If you know what you have got to do with this , it is this - that because the citizens of the Transkei are going to pay this tax, you should increase their salary scales . Now you know that you have something to do with it, so that they do not lose the food they ought to eat because it is more expensive . THE CHIEF MINISTER : raise your salary?
NOTICES OF MOTION
11. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending an amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act to prohibit the designation of paramount chiefs in regions where there are many different tribes within a regional authority area".
Do you want us to
MR. GUZANA : No , thanks , I don't want a rise in my salary, and if there is money with which you contemplate raising my salary , will you please pass it on to the labourer on the road and give him more than he is getting now. I will challenge you to give up your whole salary and I will give up my whole salary which I draw
12. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of
21 .
eastern bank of the Tsomo river as from Tsojana location to Mula location" .
amending Act No. 4 of 1965 of the Transkei so that a headman found guilty in terms of section 45 should have his punishment recommended by the residents over which he exercises jurisdiction, with the chief and the magistrate present to receive the recommendation of the residents and to advise" .
22. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a Commission of Enquiry to investigate the question of book fees in Transkei schools as well as the distribution of the books concerned" .
13. Mr. L.Z. Majija gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of establishing milk depots with a view to combating malnutrition in the Transkei " .
23. Mr. T.E. ka Tshunungwa gave notice to move:- " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Provincial Administration to cut up portions of the Municipalities in the Transkei into erven for the purposes of prospective buyers of these erven for occupation" .
14. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of granting full subsidy on all books to African children up to Std . VI" .
24. Mr. T.E. ka Tshunungwa gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Provincial Administration to allow the establishment of Village Management Boards by the Bantu in all the towns that have been zoned Black".
15. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of teaching South Sotho (Shoeshoe) to the Sotho children in schools in the Maluti Region instead of the present language taught to them".
25. Mr. N.V. Reve gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to devise ways and means whereby those Transkeian citizens working in the urban areas and whose terms of contracts have expired and who wish to continue working for another period should have their period extended by the Labour Bureaux of the towns whereat they are employed and not be sent back home to seek further contracts " .
16. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move :- " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to instal F.M. masts to cover all areas in the Transkei where there is need for same" . 17. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of putting up police stations along the Drakensberg Range to combat livestock theft and that regular raids by helicopters be conducted over the said area by the Department concerned " .
26. Mr. J.M. Dumalisile gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of amending the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963, so as to alter the appellation " Chief Minister" to " Prime Minister of the Transkei " and " Chairman" to "The Speaker" , ".
18. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of developing and uplifting the present Secondary Schools to High School level to meet the acute shortage of accommodation in the present High Schools all over the Transkei " .
27. Mr. J.M. Dinizulu gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of increasing chiefs ' and headmen's stipends and the payment of allowances to sub-headmen" .
19. Mr. C.S. Mnyila gave notice to move:" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to relax the influx control regulations to enable Transkei citizens to seek work anywhere in the Republic " .
28. Chieftainess A.N. Sigcau gave notice to move :- "That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of extending the period ofpayment of the amounts due to it by those people who obtained credit for ploughing, fertilizer , seed , etc. in view of the destruction of the crops by the drought" .
20. Mr. C.S. Mnyila gave notice to move : " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish a hospital in the Village of Tsomo " .
NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed .
21. Mr. C.S. Mnyila gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of reconstructing the dam once started by a farmer in the Xolobe River, in order to assist the surrounding areas in the irrigation of their garden lots and further make ways and means of harnessing the water of the Tsomo river to irrigate all the Bantu garden lots lying flat alongside the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , for three hours yesterday this House listened to what I may call oratory of political confusion dealt out by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. ( Laughter) To any discerning African mind , the speech delivered in this House yesterday by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has exposed the hollowness of 22.
the House whether they agree with their hon. Leader that we should revert to the council system , because the Leader of the Opposition, as an honest man, has confirmed the statement he made in Flagstaff some time back that he would like to see the Transkei obtaining a provincial status . Now , I want to say unreservedly that this side of the House stands for one thing and that is to see the African people attain full nationhood by making laws for their own people , and I want to make it clear that the Government side will never deviate from the road that they have taken - namely, to obtain more and more legislative powers on the basis of the Transkei Constitution Act. It is interesting to hear hon. members say that their party does not want Now that is a social and political inegration. departure from the stand they have always put up in this House in the past. All along theOpposition has always championed that the Transkei should have an integrated society, and that they wanted the Transkei to be part of the Republic , and that the African people should have universal suffrage with the White man in the parliament in Cape Town. But the hon. Leader has today told us in the most unequivocal terms that there is no desire on the part of the Opposition to be members of the European parliament in Cape Town. They will be satisfied with mere councils and advise the Government about how the African people should be ruled.
the individuals who are his supporters and follow the policy he stands for. If my indictment of these hon. members across the floor is incorrect, then the world in general and the Transkei in particular should in the near future expect some resignations from some of the more responsible members of the Opposition benches , until the whole party has been completely depleted, for it stands for no policy whatsoever. The hon. member's definition of the Opposition policy of multi-racialism has made the contention of this House more strong, that the members across the floor have come to this House to champion White capitalism and the suppression of the Black man by the White in South Africa. In the course of my speech I will be able to expatiate on this point further. Everybody, even students in the lower primary standards of education, knows very well that South Africa is a country inhabited by various diverse racial groups. In other words , it is a multi- racial country . That does not mean to say that the multi - racial society of South Africa has in the past maintained a standard of equality in the socio-political life of the country. As far back as 1917 , an important figure like General Smuts made a statement in London relating to race relations in South Africa . He said that in South Africa the various races could not be accommodated in the political life of the country on an equal basis , because of their differences in culture and political outlook, and he went further and said that the South African Government had made a decision that different institutions for the two major sections of the country should be established - that the Black people should run parallel institutions to those of the White man. He on that occasion referred to pending legislation , which was the Natives ' Council Bill , a bill which became an Act in 1920 , but even before that Prime Minister Cecil Rhodes made it clear that it was not possible for the two major groups in South Africa to come together in one parliament and therefore Native councils should be established in order to give the African people an opportunity to advise the Government in the running of their own affairs . Yesterday the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , to the surprise of everybody not only in the Transkei but in the rest of the Republic , made a very important statement. He said his party (this was explicit) would prefer that the council system should be retained. In saying so he was castigating a slur on the leaders of these territories - on the members of the Opposition benches which piloted the request made on the South African Government to grant the Transkei self-government in 1962. I refer to famous leaders such as the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland , Chief Victor Poto , Chief Sandy Majeke , Chief Douglas Ndamase ( I will name them one by one) , Mr. Maninjwa , Chief Tutor Ndamase - people who led the Transkei Territorial Authority to go to Pretoria and request that the council system should be disestablished .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : yesterday? (Laughter)
Did you have Jabulani
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is most interesting that such a statement should come from an attorney and a graduate of the University of South Africa , in the year of our Lord 1969 , when during the year 1912 , after the passing of the South Africa Act , African leaders in South Africa decided to approach the King in England to complain that the African people had not been included in the constitution . Now I leave this to the judgement of the Transkei citizens as to whether the policy today which is put forward by the Leader of the Opposition can have any attraction to even a person with The National Congress was a babyish mind. established in 1912 because the African people desired to participate in the making of the laws in South Africa . In other words , they wanted to be the citizens of South Africa. To be a citizen of a country a person must have the right to vote - in other words , he must have the franchise. In the whole of the Republic , only the Transkei Africans are citizens of South Africa. OPPOSITION MEMBER : Transkei?
Citizens of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, they are the only ones who are citizens of South Africa . In the remainder of South Africa the people who have no citizenship rights are mere subject races of the South African Government. I must make it clear because I see you have doubts in your mind . Anybody who has no voting rights in a country cannot claim a right of citizenship in that country . Anybody who cannot submit himself for election to a parliament cannot say he is a citizen of that country. Now, in terms
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : And a better one substituted . THE CHIEF MINISTER : And substituted by a legislative body. I would like these members please to show their faces this morning and tell 23.
of the Transkei Constitution Act the people of the Transkei have , since 1963 , become citizens of the Transkei .
these people who were repatriated from the towns ? The trouble with the Opposition is that they can mislead the people with words and not give them the facts . The facts in so far as influx control are that in 1923 the Urban Areas Act was passed in order to control the influx This was of people into the White areas . amended in 1945 with the Urban Areas Consolidated Act , which has a big section section 10. Where was the Government of the Transkei at that time ? The Bunga was there, to which the hon. member has made reference . What did they do about it?
OPOSITION MEMBER : Yes , of the Transkei.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Of course , because the Transkei is in the Republic of South Africa. Dr. Verwoerd put the ideological concept of General Smuts into practice and decided that the African people in South Africa should attain full rights of citizenship and , parallel to the existing legislative institutions of the White people , have their own legislative bodies . Last year the Government party moved a motion that the Ciskei should be amalgamated with the Transkei. Now the Opposition members , led by their " voorbok" opposite , opposed this motion vehemently. In other words , they were opposed to the addition of more and more land to the Transkei . They were satisfied that the Ciskei should be satisfied with territorial authority Now I want to indict the Opposition powers. and say that they are the greatest enemies of the Black man.
OPPOSITION MEMBER :
Where were you?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I was not a member of the Bunga . I would never be a member of the Bunga. Look at me! Do you think I would ever be a member of the Bunga? (Laughter) I have always stood for a body that can make laws for its own people . Mr. Chairman , hon. members , at the time when Paramount Chief Victor Poto and others were members of that council I was serving articles with a firm of attorneys , for your information . Now, I want to say that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has given the impression that the Transkei can never be industrialized because of the policy of separate development , but I want to tell him that it is the policy of separate development which has caused the industries in the Republic to employ African skilled labour , and that is in preparation for the industrial development ofthe Bantu homelands . It is the policy ofthis Government which has caused the employment of African agents for retail and wholesale firms . It is the policy of separate development....
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Hear , hear .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You all know that the boundaries of the Ciskei border on the Fish River, and the White Government has acknowledged that, but the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition yesterday asked the Chief Minister to explain where this House would get additional land for the people who are ejected from the towns . In 1936 , when the South African Native Trust and Land Act was passed the Union Government promised the African in South Africa that they would be given 7½ million morgen of land . This side of the House takes the word of the Republican leaders seriously .
MR. GUZANA: It is merely the realisation that the Transkei is a big potential market that the African is being approached to exploit that market. THE CHIEF MINISTER :
MR . GUZANA : Why don't you take the word of the Minister of Bantu Administration seriously when he tells you the Ciskei and Transkei would never be one territory?
You are entitled
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to put it to the hon. member that the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has never said that.
to your opinion , but I will go further and say it is the policy of the Government which has led to the University of the Witwatersrand opening its gates to Transkei citizens . The Republican Government, in collaboration with the Transkei Government, is making an earnest attempt to train and prepare Africans to assume positions of responsibility in their future development.
MR . GUZANA : He said it to the Cape Congress of the Nationalist Party.
MR. GUZANA : But they should be there as of right, not on sufferance.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He has made it clear that the amalgamation of the Ciskei and Transkei is a matter for the two territories to decide .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The hon. member should now listen. I want to make it clear to you that you will never be accepted in the White parliament in Cape Town at any time.
MR. GUZANA : want to go there .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition should not accuse this side of the House about the land question when he himself is not interested in that. I want to put this question to him. He is a student of history, he knows that the law which deals with influx control was passed in 1945 and the question I want to put to him is: What provision was made at the time for land to be given to
But you told me I didn't
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , I am making it clear to you. You said that at a future date you might have representatives in that parliament. MR. GUZANA : You said I didn't want to go there , so don't waste your breath.
24.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : From the days of the colonial government right up to the days of the Republics , to the Union of South Africa and to the Republic of South Africa , White South Africa has made it clear that you will never land your foot in the House of Assembly in Cape Town.
can a body that is the only sole body that assists the African people be attacked? All I can say is that the hon. member across the floor has come here to speak for the White traders in the Transkei , because they are the only people who can attack the XDC . For example , he has told this House that the XDC had an advertisement by a certain garage that cars and radios were available at a price less 33'3 %.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Have you surrendered?
MR. GUZANA : I never said " cars " . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , I am realistic , and you must be realistic too, instead of thinking that one day you will be accepted in the White parliament. You see, the younger generation understand the situation and that is why you will never get a single member from the younger fellows supporting your policy.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You said " cars and radios" . MR. GUZANA : How can you sell a car less Even the XDC would go under. It is 33 %%? car and portable radios. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Well , car and porNow, is it not in the interests table radios . of the African people if those reductions have been made at this garage ?
MR. GUZANA : Is that why they are returning their TNIP cards ? Chief Douglas THE CHIEF MINISTER : Ndamase has about four sons all supporting the policy of separate development. ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, the hon. member across the floor has made certain indictments against the Xhosa Development Corporation and it now devolves on me to defend this body because they cannot defend Before the establishment of the themselves. Transkeian Government, the African people in the Transkei did not have any body to whom they could go in order to get financial assistance . I am sure that every sensible person was grieved when he heard the hon. member across the floor slashing a body which is striving very hard to assist the African aborigines of the Transkei . This body has up to date spent over R1,591,242 in loans to general dealers , hoteliers , butchers , garages , transport services. The hon. member for Umtata has been assisted by the XDC .
MR . GUZANA : Is that the type of economy you want to open up in the Transkei ? You will answer THE CHIEF MINISTER : when you reply to the debate . I am giving you homework. MR. GUZANA : But homework must be inteliigible, you know. The teacher must know his subject. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I want now to come to the attack made by the hon. member on the Government with regard to its agricultural policy. The hon. member has made several divers serious allegations against the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and other Cabinet Ministers , saying we made speeches before the election that rehabilitation had been abolished . I want to assure this House that this is a complete distortion of the truth. He is trying to shield his own supporters who have been going round the country telling the people to rise against the Transkei Government because it was a Government established for the fencing of their lands .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He has approached the XDC for assistance . OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No , no. THE CHIEF MINISTER : They have provided tractors for ploughing and loans for housing. 176 general dealers have been assisted by the XDC with an amount of R926,438.
MR. GUZANA : What about the hon. member for Flagstaff? That is your own baby , isn't it? Or have you disinherited him ?
OP POSITION MEMBER: We'll ask the member for Cofimvaba to give a sample of the assistance .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Minister of Agriculture stands firm on the provisions of the Agricultural Development Act which was passed by this House and in that Act we made it clear that rehabilitation is not enforceable . The provisions of that Act are clear , that consultation will be made between the various bodies before any administrative area is fenced .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am giving you the figures of the money paid out. MR . GUZANA: I am glad now we can join issue on this because you have mentioned it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Don't say other people don't want assistance from the XOC . Five hotels have been assisted with R63,980 ; 17 transport services ; 74 people who wanted to purchase houses were assisted by the XDC . The XDC has offered university scholarships . It has two bursaries for students in commerce
MR. GUZANA :
Pray define " consultation" ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: define "consultation" ?
You want me to
MR. GUZANA : You have heard me. THE CHIEF Minister;
or science at the University of Fort Hare. How 25.
It is not necessary
to define it. I could make it clear to another person, but not to an attorney. (Laughter) The Department of Agriculture has consulted tribal authorities whenever any administrative area applies for rehabilitation, but if a small section of the people rise against the decision of the majority of the members of the administrative area, you cannot say that the Government is enforcing rehabilitation.
permitted under certain conditions by my Government. MR. GUZANA: Such as?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not necessary for me to give you the conditions under which these men will be allowed. Coming to the question of membership of the chiefs in this House, I want to tell my colleagues on this side of the House that we are now clear about the intention of the Opposition, and their intention is to destroy and abolish chieftainship. They have gone further they say that the chiefs should not even have jurisdiction to try cases over their subjects. That is what was said at their socalled congress of about 52 people in Ncambedlana . But I want to make it clear that the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act in so far as chieftainship is concerned are entrenched. The chiefs are the leaders oftheir people. The Opposition members have always asserted that they are the leaders of the people and not the chiefs , but today they say they lost the elections because of the chiefs . That is correct. The chiefs are respected by their subjects and their subjects agree with them in the policy that they follow. Now, you must be clear, hon. gentlemen across the floor, that you will never form a government at any time as long as your policies are opposed to the political, economical and the social development of the African people in the Transkei . When you say that the constitution of this Assembly is undemocratic , do you mean that in order that a constitution should be democratic it should emulate America or Russia? I put that question to you as homework. The African form of government has always been democratic because it is constituted by the chief- in-council. Therefore the chiefs must be present where the laws of the country are made.
MR. GUZANA: It is you member who instigated the opposition.
-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The wishes of the majority have to be taken into consideration. You seem to be taking advantage of the little storm in a teacup which took place in Flagstaff. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : lives.
This little storm involves
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That has nothing whatsoever to do with the plicy of the Government. I am giving you the policy of the Government.
MR. GUZANA : is the main thing .
It must be practised - that
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now I come to the question of allowing White capital into the Transkei. The hon. member has accused the Chief Minister of deviating from the policy he has initiated in the past. I want to make it clear once more that the Transkei will never let the White entrepreneurs to come unrestricted and open up industries in the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA: concede that.
But they must come · you
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We do not say they must come, but my Government will consider every case where the White industrialists would offer their services to assist the Transkei Government on its merits .
MR. GUZANA: We'll have Lord Botha Sigcau very soon. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, the hon. member has attacked the Liquor Act, alleging that the Transkei Government gave sole monopoly to the Xhosa Development Corporation to handle Bantu beers . This allegation is not in accordance with the provisions of the Liquor Act. The relevant section says that the Transkei Government may grant the XDC monopoly.
MR. GUZANA: That is a play upon words. The fact is , the White investors will invest in the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The policy is clear that the White businessmen will have no landed interests any more in the Transkei. That is clear , whereas in terms of your policy you would give the whole of the municipal area of the Transkei to the White people .
MR. GUZANA : And it has .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, it has not done
So.
MR. GUZANA : What about the whole of the Cofimvaba area to the leader of the Transkei ?
MR. GUZANA: beer here?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If the White businessmen come to invest their money in businesses in the Transkei , they will do so on the understanding that the land will never belong to them .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who has applied? Every application will be dealt with on its own merits , but to say there should be no African beer is to me a most surprising statement to come from a responsible man of the calibre of the Leader of the Opposition. Why don't you oppose European liquor which is the cause of drunkenness in the country?
MR. GUZANA : They are coming into the Transkei - that is the point. THE CHIEF MINISTER:
Who else is making Bantu
And they will be
26 .
MR. GUZANA: you yesterday.
Because you like it - I told
regions now because of the terroristic methods of the members across the floor. I want to assure you that at the next general elections we shall take all those constituencies except Libode . We will still give (Interjections) you Libode . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I move that this House has confidence in the Government I want you to be certain of one thing · that you have no supporters anywhere because you have no policy . With those few words I want to challenge all of you to stand up and put before this House a positive policy , something which will attract the people to show that you are standing for their interests . You did not come to this House to stand for the interests of the White man. Every time the hon. member in front of me comes here he looks at the balcony opposite him and winks at the public to see that he is really championing his cause. (Laughter) He must come back now to his own people and the only policy which stands for the interests of the people is the policy of the Government party, the policy which says the Transkei land shall belong to the Transkei citizens only; the policy which says ultimately the traders in the Transkei shall be Transkei citizens only; the policy which says these towns in the Transkei shall be wholly occupied by Transkei citizens only; the policy which assures the African people a right in the land of their forefathers ; the policy which ensures peaceful co-existence between the races of South Africa. I move , Sir , that in the original motion you delete the word "no" and say that this House has confidence in the Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I will never drink intoxicating liquors . I can never rule this country otherwise . That is why you always find difficulty with me , because I always retain my senses. The people always mix up European liquor with African beer. We have tasted Jabulani and there is nothing wrong with it. MR. GUZANA : That's right, you acknowledge you drank it. Isn't that an admission? (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : We wanted to find out if there was any strong alcohol in it. The Africans want this Bantu beer and they should have it. There is nothing wrong with it. Speak about European liquor you don't say anything when they drink European liquor because it is sold by White people . ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, coming to the drought relief which was attacked by the hon. member, I regret that his attitude has shown that he is not sympathetic with what the Government is trying to do to meet the poor people. Drought relief is a matter of emergency...
MR. GUZANA: all.
Feeding the people - that is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : of emergency . MR. GUZANA : gency.
No, it is a matter THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
This is a continuing emer-
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not provided for in our budget every year . The Government is not in a position to pay wages to people who are merely assisted to subsist during difficult times. I may say that the people are very grateful to the Government about what it has done . Coming to the question of the general election, I want to say that if any people have brought about confusion at the general elections , it is the Opposition. We have received information that some of their agents submitted reference books in the absence of voters to the polling officers . What does the hon. member say to that? But in spite of all that you were shamefully defeated at the polls and you maintain that you had the highest votes . How do you arrive at that?
The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. THE CHAIRMAN: I wish to draw the attenWe shall tion of members to rule No. 30. confine ourselves to 30 minutes per speaker . MR. R. MADIKIZELA : M. Chairman and hon. members , in his address this morning the hon. Paramount Chief succeeded in impressing nobody but himself with his weak arguments . I will not bother myself about pursuing those arguments , but I will confine myself to his other utterances to the public outside this Chamber, particularly that aspect in which he claims to have an absolute mandate from the people. I wish to tell him that there are mandates and mandates. Until a few weeks ago the priests were telling us just how a notorious fellow once enjoyed the fullest confidence of his people . His name was Barabbas . This infamous brigand was voted for overwhelmingly by the people and his only claim to fame was that he stood trial alongside the Son of Man. According to the indictment he had committed nearly all the capital crimes known to the laws of that land , and even the judge was satisfied in his mind that there was substance in the allegations against him . It was this other man who was permitted to ask:
MR. GUZANA : Who said that? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You said so . MR. GUZANA ; I did say you had had more than your share of Jabulani yesterday. ( Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : You suffered a complete defeat at the general election and that was because of your policies . The people have seen through you and they know perfectly well that they can never believe you any more . We are only confronted with Nyandeni and Dalindyebo
27 .
What evil hath he done ? He has merely called upon the people to be good and kind to one another; he has recommended consideration and thoughtfulness between man and man; he condemned publicly the discrimination between Jew and Gentile , between Briton , Boer and Bantu , and this was most gratifying to his Lordship, the Judge . This same gentleman had encouraged the people to pay their taxes to Caesar without fail and he was one better than the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to whom the hon . the Chief Minister made reference yesterday. It was said he had healed the sick without deWhat was manding a fee for his services . seditious in that act? What was treasonable in any way? But the people raised an uproarious cry - not an ovation, but a tumultuous vituperation. They said that was hardly pertinent to the issue at stake. It was their inalienable right, it was their fundamental right, it was their traditional right that at that season of the year they were permitted to have their sport and to choose the life of one or other of the condemned people , and they shouted more and more for Barabbas . (Interjections) The good judge , discerning their determination , called for a basin of water and as he washed his hands he was heard to remark: It is a strange , strange world we live in, where an innocent man is condemned and a sinner allowed to go free. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : lesson?
He would not wait to pick up the clue . He harped upon this subject to a nauseating degree. "You teachers , you civil servants , " he would fulminate , " I am now in a position to put you in a position where you will be able to get yourselves out of debt. " And he would go on like that. He would say the Transkei has plenty of work opportunities; he would say he was ready to create many more such opportunities , but each time he would give no details. Then he would come to the most favourite subject of his and on this he would work most steadily: "I am going to build schools for you. " Pouncing upon any headman, he would ask the question: "Has the Government built a school for you?" And the answer would be : "No, your Royal Highness . " "Do you know the reason?" - he would ask. "Your Royal Highness , no. " " I am going to tell you the reason. I regret to say it is your most honoured Paramount Chief. He sits in opposition to me. It is Chief Tutor It is Nyangilizwe - he is barring the way. Chief Douglas , he is closing all the doors to my entry; and as for your elected members, they are all of them of the same ilk. They just will not help me. " And he would recount how, on the way to his meeting, he had had certain rickety buildings and ramshakcle structures pointed out to him, and the structures were supposed to do duty for schools. He would say: " The only one in the region of Nyanda who is giving me support is Chief Ferguson Gwadiso. " And he would hold up the chief of the Konjwayo as a giant of mighty proportions - a man by whose mighty efforts any school at all had been built in the Nyanda region, and he would say: "I will build a beautiful school for him and I would fain do the same for you if I only had my Then he would trow in a story or two way. " in very bad taste about Chief Douglas , involving schoolgirls , and how he invariably came off topmost. Now, these are the tactics of the hon. the Chief Minister - fantastic crudities by any standard (Interjections) and showing no finesse. Now the people of the Transkei expect to see those schools ; they are looking forward to those work opportunities ; and they have even got new and larger purses in anticipation ofthe promised increase. (Laughter) And that is how the hon. the Chief Minister claimed this mandate , and the first act of the Chief Minister and the Government in pursuit of this mandate was this - he systematically axed all the married women who had been rendering invaluable service to the Education Department, axed them most ruthlessly, gave them short shrift and paid them piecework for the month of December; and the lamentations that were heard, the echoes ofthose cries are still fresh in our memories . Now I propose to let you into a secret. It is whispered , I fear rather loudly, that a few favoured ones received full pay.
Is this a Bible
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MADIKIZELA : The people were wild with enthusiasm. They tossed their caps into the high heaven; they pranced about with complete abandon. One would have thought it was the appearance of Churchill after the historic event of the Battle of Britain - and all this because they had secured the release of a worthless waif. ( Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MADIKIZELA : The hon. the Chief Minister has his mandate , perhaps indisputably , but this same celebrity of whom I am speaking also had his mandate . The hon. the Chief Minister selected during the last election the region of Nyanda for his personal attention. I am proposing to submit this mandate of his to a little close scrutiny to see just how he came about it. Activated by a sense of fair play, and not wishing to disconcert His Royal Highness in any way, I did not attend his meeting, but my agents did and this is what he said in the course of his campaign , saying this in his own inimitable way : "I am the Government of the Transkei! " Drawing out his bedroom key he would hold forth: "I wield this little instrument small , yes , but most effective . I have in my hand the key to the Transkei coffers ; my treasury has illimitable resources . " I tell you, Mr. Chairman, he used to represent the Transkei as a veritable treasure -house . With he himself as its leader, money was to be had for the asking, and just at that moment, most auspiciously, the Republican Government came up with an idea for an increase in pay for its members .
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
That is not true .
MR. MADIKIZELA : But more of that when the Education Vote comes up for discussion. (Interjections) Personally, I was disappointed with the address of the hon. the Chief Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Don't tell lies.
28.
Speak the truth.
MR. MADIKIZOLA : I had hoped with the mandate that he has that he would come forward before this Chamber with a comprehensive programme for the scheme that he proposes to a programme clear , concise and carry out concrete....
we have come here to make laws . Firstly , I want to say that during 1965 when Chief Majeke was speaking to the vote of no confidence , he made reference to a bye - election in the Gcaleka region when one of the hon. members was "Let this House be He said : successful . educated a bit that we live in the age when we should remember that the voice of the people is the voice of the law. " I want to find out from him whether he still repeats that saying today , because he was saying that the success of the hon. member was due to the will of the people and that it was the voice of the law. (Interjections) The results of the last general election are : TNIP · 354,460 votes ; Democratic Party 293,944 . I will not say anything about the other parties. In fine , the TNIP led by 60,516 votes. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not in a motion of no confidence . That is for his policy speech. MR. MADIKIZELA : ...but none of that was forthcoming . The country at the moment is going through a period of severe drought. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you going to say that is the fault of the Government? MR. MADIKIZELA: The cattle have died in large numbers , as well as the sheep , and the crop is a complete failure . The Transkei is poised upon the brink of a famine of unprecedented dimensions . I had hoped the hon. the Chief Minister would come forward with measures as to how to alleviate the sufferings of the people and to alleviate generally the condition of the people . I had hoped the hon. the Chief Minister would say a word or two about influx control. He has often been heard to say he is not responsible for the imposition of this influx control . I agree entirely with him, but he is responsible in a general way for the citizens of the Transkei who suffer from this iniquitous legislation . I hope he will come forward with a proposed scheme as to how he intends to negoitiate with the Republican Government should I say for the lifting? - No , that would be beyond his capabilities . Let us say for the relaxation in respect of some of the rigorous provisions of this Act. (Interjections) I had hoped he would have a statement to make on the question of Native taxation in South Africa , which is a most inequitable system . He knew that before he assumed the stewardship of the Transkei , but he has since lost his bearings and in desperation he is holding fast to the policy of separate development in the belief that he has now discovered the panacea for the ills of South Africa. It is the Republican Government who are happy over the fact that the hon. the Chief Minister has a considerable mandate from the citizens of the Transkei . They are now going to set afoot a programme for the effective control of the Native . The hon. the Chief Minister is opening the door wide for all the people who are being repatriated from the urban areas, who will come into the Transkei to starve and waste . Meanwhile the Republican
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I want to know who you are representing when people show they are for the Government . All I can say about you is that you are merely representing yourselves. Another question from these hon. members : As your leader stated that multi - racialism is not integration, is he speaking the truth? You all realise he was not speaking the truth and he does not know what he is saying . To show you are not in line with your leader , there is a notice of motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta . I do not know whether he has been sent to come and have the Immorality Act abolished or whether he is doing it of his own accord . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , you cannot discuss that motion. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I am merely alluding to it to show these members do not know what they are after . It is quite obvious today that when you speak you always look up . (Laughter) You are always looking at that side . We look at the opposite towards the Africans , but you look towards the White people . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We have now found out what you are looking for and we know your intentions . I have promised you that I will not go deep into this matter , but will do so when we tackle it. Before the general election , when we were holding meetings in Matatiele , I was accompanied by other members or they came and attended my meetings . The members I refer to are those on the Opposition side . I want to tell you, Leader of the Opposition, why you failed so dismally. In Matatiele I gave your members the chance to give their platform to the people or to explain to them what they were going to do for them. These hon. members got up and said they have no policy . All they wanted was that they should be nominated and elected so that they should come and represent people in parliament. They were asked several times and they were told the people heard what they said, but they asked : On which side are you as far as politics are concerned? These hon. members replied they had no side but they only
Government is bringing in thousands of immigrants to walk into the land which he hopes to claim . The effect of the disease is going to continue for ever in the Transkei. Hunger is going to go on for ever in pursuit of the will- o'the-wisp of separate development. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE ; Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we shall continue striking the head of this dead snake . We have heard a speech from the last member that was truthful . He spoke largely of religious matters and many of us do not attend church. I want to tell him not to speak here about religious matters because
29 .
same rights as those in the Ncambedlana area. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition spoke about a certain woman who undressed herself and put all her clothes on her head. What is the hon. member going to do when he sees a woman doing that? (Interjections ) I wish to advise the hon. leader that the actions of drunken people are not to be blamed on the Government. Did the Government order that woman to remove her clothing? Time and again the hon. the Leader of the Opposition harps on this vexed question of rehabilitation . I would like to ask him if that man was sent by the Government to go and incite the people .
wanted to represent the people . These members on our side came up and told the people what they stood for and on which side , and because the Opposition members failed to speak the truth and to tell the people what they stood for, they were not elected. Besides that, they failed to attend certain "inkundlas " . MR. K.M. GUZANA : Didn't you know about the people making affidavits objecting? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I don't know anything about that. If I had done so , that person could have charged me . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition says that because the Government controls the election there are these certain manipulations which are unknown to me. Who do you want to control the elections ? Do you want them controlled by you?
MR. GUZANA : Yes, he was. Government supporter.
He was a
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That does not necessarily mean he was sent to incite the people. (Interjections)
MR . GUZANA: I won't answer that or you will find yourselves in difficulties .
MR. GUZANA: You endorsed his agitation against rehabilitation even before the general election.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : As long as you are only 25 members you will not control the elections . I am also surprised that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition stated that the hon. the Chief Minister went to the Republic hat in hand with the Minister of the Interior to beg for work. I want to tell him that this visit by the Chief Minister and the Minister of the Interior was for a good purpose . (Interjections )
THE what?
MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
By doing
MR . GUZANA : You said this was a democratic country and he could do as he pleased . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : How can you be responsible for the actions of your supporters?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
MR . GUZANA: don't say it.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Even if we went to look for work for other people , that was in order because it is the leaders of the people who must think on behalf of those people suffering from starvation. Do you expect him to sit down while people are starving? It is his right to go and consult with the Republic so that the people obtain work. I am also surprised when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition says the sitting together of the Chief Minister and the Ministers of the Republic, or speaking through the same microphone is multi-racialism . Because certain people work under Europeans , is that multiracialism ? He was working because he went to speak on your behalf. (Interjections ) Again, the Leader of the Opposition challenged the Chief Minister to give away his salary and he would also do so. This reminds me of someone who wants to influence people to become communists , telling them they would get something out of it. The man who was being influenced to become a communist said : "When you get R100 , do you mean to say I will also get R100 ?" The reply was : "Oh, yes, you will receive it. " " Even if it is R300 ?" "Yes , that is correct. " " If you own a pig will I get half your pig?" The gentleman said : " No , you will not get any pig because I only have one pig. " He promised only the things that he had not. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows he has no salary , that is why he says the Chief Minister should give his salary away . As he enjoys I ask him : property rights in Ncambedlana , doesn't he want other people to enjoy those rights ? You are now determined to block the road for other people because of your policy. You do not want these people who stay in the rural locations to get the
If you have nothing to say,
MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is common practice .... THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , this being Friday and the end of the month, I move the adjournment of the House in order to enable the members to receive their allowances. They will be expected here at 3.30 p.m. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : I second . The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 28th April , 1969. MONDAY, 28th APRIL, 1969
Prayers were read . The minutes of Friday , 25th April , were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to announce that the Chief Minister desires to meet the business committee in his office at 5 o'clock this afternoon. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963, I wish to convey to the Assembly my 30.
recommendation for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1969.
35. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of making provision for civil servants ' accommodation in all Transkeian towns and villages at reduced rentals and on a rebate basis and inside the Municipality and V.M.B. areas " .
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table :-
36. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of relaxing or abolishing the strict " meanst test" applied in cases of applicants for Old Age Pensions and Disability Grants , to increase these by at least 20% and these to be paid monthly instead of being paid bi-monthly" .
(1 ) Estimates of expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkei Revenue Fund during the year ending 31st March, 1970 ;
(2) Estimates of revenue to be received during the year ending 31st March, 1970 . Mr. Chairman, I lay upon the table a statement of the transactions and the balance sheet of the Transkei Development and Reserve Fund for the financial year 1967/1968 .
37. Mr. A.M. Raziya gave notice to move : " That the Transkei Government, in view of the severe penalities imposed on persons contravening the provisions of the Road Transportation Act on a third conviction, involving inter alia a fine of R1,000.00 and confiscation of the motor vehicle involved in the offence , should make representations to the Republican Government for the relaxation in the punishimet as extreme hardship results from such punishment" .
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and miscellaneous accounts of the Transkei Government and on the accounts of the lower authorities of the Transkei for the financial year 1967/1968 . In terms of rule 147 (b) it stands referred to the sessional committee on Public Accounts .
38. Mr. A.M. Raziya gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to build extra wards at Sir Henry Elliot Hospital and build other hospitals in every village or town in the Transkei " .
NOTICES OF MOTION 29. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to reduce the two rand charge to one rand whenever issue of a reference book for the renewal of a lost one".
39. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of establishing its own University in the Transkei " .
30. Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to assign a portion of the Mjanyana Leper Institution commonage for grazing of cattle belonging to the African citizens ".
40. Mr. B.S. M´yani gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Transkei Civic Association to encourage its members to establish factories in the Transkei in order to aid the Transkei people " .
31. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly , the Government should consider the advisability of building old age homes at strategic points in the Transkei " .
41. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of leasing from the Umtata Municipality the Market Hall to enable people to sell their fresh produce" .
32. Mr. P.N. Nkosiyane gave notice to move : " That in view of the high enrolment in the Primary School , altogether out of proportion to the number of teachers in these schools , the Department of Education , as a matter ofurgency , should employ married women with the necessary qualifications , on a permanent basis " .
42. Mr. B.S. Mnyani gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Umtata Municipality to build Market Stalls near the Jubilee Hall" .
33. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That as a matter of urgency , the honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry should place before this House a detailed plan for any administrative area which is to be put under the Soil Conservation Scheme" .
43. Mr. K.M.N. Guzana gave notice to move :" That the Transkei Government should recommend to the Republican Government amendments to the Transkei Constitution Act , Act No. 48 of 1963, to give increased elected representation in the Legislative Assembly by increasing the number of elected members to 64" .
34. Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of building up hostels at day secondary schools and high schools for the use of students as sleeping quarters ".
44. Mr. T.E. ka Tshunungwa gave notice to move :- "That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to
31 .
amend sections 12 , 13 and 14 read with sections 9 and 10 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963, and provide that the Leader of the Party that has the majority in the Legislative Assembly shall constitute a Cabinet by appointing members of his cabinet".
have shown that they are not ready yet to introduce bills . If you close these motions we shall sit here with nothing to do. I do not say that an opinion be passed on this immediately , but I would rather you consider at leisure this request which I am placing before you .
45. Mr. S.K. Ndzumo gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to supply or to grant permits to proved law abiding citizens as well as to all chiefs , headmen and traders , and that the practice of confiscating lawfully held fire -arms after the death of the lawful holder is discontinued" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , though I sympathize with the request made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, as Minister of Finance I wish to draw the attention of this House to the fact that the money used for printing is public money. You will note that since 1964 most of these motions have not been discussed on account of lack of time . Most of these motions are matters which should be referred to the departments for their consideration. My hon. friends on the other side would not take their motions to the correct Ministers of the relative departments as they have the spirit of monkeys and they prefer to come and show in this House that they are moving these motions . This is what I want to draw your attention to that this side of the House , which is concerned with finance , does not wish money to be wasted. Even the notices of motion that have been brought forth will not be discussed because this House will be fully engaged in discussing bills from Thursday. Please consider that and do not agree with this request .
47. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of (a) instituting a system whereby silicosis beneficiaries would be provided with a card reflecting the amount of the compensation and amounts he withdraws;
TRANSKEI
APPROPRIATION READING
BILL
-
46. Mr. S.K. Ndzumo gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of paying qualification allowances to chiefs and headmen above their usual stipends in view of the need to have ducated chiefs and headmen as an incentive to the young chiefs and headmen to seek higher education. "
FIRST
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Appropriation Bill , 1969, and I move that the bill be now read a first time .
(b) requesting the Chamber of Mines to provide educational facilities for children of silicosis beneficiaries up to and including Std. X " .
48. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to increase its Grants to the Transkei Government by 50%".
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , I second.
49. Chief B. Holomisa gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of appointing an itinerant organiser to audit the books of existing cooperative credit societies " .
THE CHAIRMAN: reading?
50. Mr. H. Mafukula gave notice to move :" That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to relax the pass law regulation in urban areas " .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: that be?
Agreed to . The bill was read a first time . What date for the second
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : 2.15 p.m.
Thursday,
Which Thursday will
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This week. NO CONFIDENCE
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I, under this head , make this request. If I remember well , you said that after this date you would no longer allow members to give notice of motions . We are a mixed group, Mr. Chairman and quite a number of us are new members of this Assembly. Some of them are a little slow in answering to the requirements of the regulations. Would you kindly therefore , Mr. Chairman, not give us a further privilege so that next week it may be possible for us to put in further notices of motion? Further , Mr. Chairman, some of the Ministers
The debate was resumed. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is common practice for most members whenever we get to this motion of no confidence to get round to personalities instead of discussing their policy · a policy in fact which is not their policy but a policy they have inherited from the mother government so that the evils of the mother government are theirs , and theirs are the mother government's , because the two are inseparable . The policy of separate
32 .
development call it "apartheid" if you like -started showing signs of cracking right from the top, hence if you read the newspapers you will find there are what you call the "verligtes" and "verkramptes" . The crack is starting right from the top. (Interjections ) May I request you please , Mr. Chairman, to protect me from this silly, uncouth heckler of a chief before he makes me lose my head?
signs up and goes away , and the other one comes and signs up and goes the other way. What is more painful is the manner in which it is being done . There is a tinge of bribery and there is a hint of corruption all along the line between the man getting his job. A fellow's passport is due and he goes to work and he is told it is not there . A is not given it , but B is given it because he has paid something. We were saying that you should go to the trouble to go to Parliament or wherever it be , and see that there is some relaxation of influx control . You have done it before with particular individuals and relaxation was realised . I don't know why, in this case , you cannot be more active . Mark you , if our people can be recruited to go to these places to get money , why can they , even if it is under contract , not go to the cities where they will find the best market for their labour ? The on, the Chief Minister asked the hon. the Leader of the Opposition the other day : How are you going to get to Cape Town? Tell us . As a scholar he is aware that there is already a substantial percentage even of the European population that speaks our language . It is therefore the pressure from the multi - racial society which obtains in this country - the pressure from them which will make us get to Cape Town. He knows the old order changeth .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is an insult. You had better withdraw that. MR. ZIBI : Every time I speak he makes silly remarks . (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, with all due respect... MR. ZIBI :
I withdraw , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a personal relection on the character of a member and it should be withdrawn. OPFOSITION MEMBER : Which chief? THE CHIEF MINISTER : He must withdraw.
It does not matter .
Will the hon. member
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But your leader says he wants a council system .
MR . ZIBI: I withdraw. M. Chairman, let these hon. gentlemen across there admit that if they support the policy of separate development they do indeed support influx control , Bantu education, the Group Areas Act, ethnic grouping, accepting inferiority by colour only and , of course, ideologically that they are not the aboriginals of this country. They are accepting, therefore, the present set-up teritorially in the country and they also accept colour in sport. I shall try to dwell on influx control to prove...
MR. ZIBI : Just recently the Prime Minister himself, in addressing the Republican Government, said that the question of territorial separation may only be attained in the next generation, so that it destroys the dream of independence. He says the most important thing is policy , which has got to be given first consideration. And the other day you heard Mr. Froneman , who is some big shot in the Republican Government, speaking of repatriation without development. To quote him himself: " It is not necessary to develop the Bantustans before repatriating to them the 3,807,465 Bantu who are con་་ sidered superfluous in the White urban areas . He is the Deputy Minister of Justice , Mines and Planning and meanwhile you admit that you have your own homelands. In other words , it means the African people in the urban areas will for ever remain foreigners in their own country of birth .
THE CHAIRMAN: withdraw the remark?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you are talking of the Republican Government. Come to the Transkei.
MR. ZIBI: The hon. the Chief Minister tried to tell us the other day how the Act came into existence . We are aware how it came into being. The question is - what is this Government doing about it, except for the fact that they have become a labour recruiting agency? They really are, because if you go right round the Transkei there are these short contracts that go to farms and other places , and the question arises : Have they ever taken the trouble to make sure what the working conditions in those particular areas are like , because the people of the Transkei are their people ? There are cases where a man will work for three months only and just before he is due for an increment he is told to get back home . Can anyone tell me that in five or six months , with only R50 to R60 , any man can do anything ? Meanwhile this particular somebody has a child probably at college and they normally have big families , with the mother and other kids to see to. Here in the Transkei the people of the different districts are simply forming a labour reservoir and someone comes along and
THE CHIEF MINISTER : They have been for the last 300 years . MR. ZIBI : You are accepting , as it were , that you are even inferior to Coloureds , hence their al owance is sometimes five times bigger than ours , and yet compare the figures of the population of the Transkei as against the number of Coloured people . Gentlemen , we appeal to you seriously. I would have personally listened to the hon. the Chief Minister when he addressed a gathering at Kwatheme near Springs , if it had not been that I was afraid of being throttled by the police , as his bodyguard was throttled at Vereeniging . (Laughter) I would have heard him say, as it was reported , that the Transkei belongs to him. Now, what Transkei does he have really? And is it the Transkei really, or shall I 33.
call it Matanzima Transkei ? He goes further to say to those people that there are bursaries for their people , when right here in the Transkei there are people who are starving - people who go under these very stupid contracts, who cannot send their children to school because there are no bursaries available to them. It is because - that is what is confronting him. of this policy A man of his standing should be quite clear about the whole thing - that the policy is definiIn other words , it means the tely nonsense . officials behind you, if we had to take this policy to its logical conclusion, must not have African domestic servants. I must not have a Coloured kitchen girl.
the Ciskei , and you are aware that the Ciskei is of the new deal , and you call yourselves a parliament or legislative assembly. How do you reconcile the amalgamation? Are you going to lose your status and become a new deal, or are you trying to raise the status of the Ciskei? (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. ZIBI: We are trying now to put practical facts before you . There are many, many promises that the hon. the Chief Minister, right from the inception of this Government , made to the Transkei people . " Apartheid" is no solution at all to the racial problem in South Africa .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You mean that is illogical confusion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : tion?
MR. ZIBI : That is what separate development means. It goes further to support ethnic grouping, (Interjections) so that in a region such as mine it means the Pondomises will soon be alone , the Hlubis will be alone , the Basutos will be alone . He must have known when he undertook his last tour , when he was told there was some new difficulty, that people were confronted with this sort of thing in the urban areas - that if a boy was in Pretoria or Johannesburg and married a young girl in Umtata , she would not be allowed to join her husband. (Interjections) The law is that she has to be with her husband , but the regulations have nothing to do with that. (Interjections) I am reminded of an incident which took place as I was coming down as a result of this same policy . There was an incident on one of the railway stations . People just got off at the station and they went through the wrong subway the one supposed to be for Europeans , although there were no Europeans there . They were taken back to the platform and they were charged accordingly. That is separate development . Some of them possibly lost their jobs because they were late . Practically, what is wrong in going through that door, or in my going through that door , when a White goes through that door ? Now, there is always this business of talking about homelands . Where is your history? I know the hon. the Chief Minister did some history in his degree course.
What is the solu-
MR. ZIBI: It is only a diversion.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: positive policy.
Bring forward a
MR. ZIBI : ....and he cannot tell me that those people who discussed the issue of "apartheid" at Wits University.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : They were Communists. MR. ZIBI: Now that he speaks of Communism , I don't believe that the Transkei Government is not to a greater extent guilty of communistic inclinations . (Interjections ) The methods that they used in this last general election were so iniquitous , so bad that the entire aim behind that Government is that they must have a oneparty government, which is a principle of Communism . MR. S.K. NDZUMO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I thought it was a joke on Friday when some of the members of the Government asked why I was on the Opposition side , and the rumour went so fast that before I reached home I was nearly going to be chopped . They were of the opinion that despite their instructions , their mandate , I had crossed over to the Opposition side , and I had to use every means to give an explanation that it was because there was no Opposition. (Laughter) It has only a few members just at the side , so we had to squeeze them into the corner. ( Laughter) The Opposition talk of irregularities . They maintain that there are areas where coercion has been used against the people's will. Is Western Pondoland included in those irregularities ? Is the Tembu area included in those irregularities ? (Interjections ) If it was smooth running there , it was smooth running throughout. These hon. gentlemen maintain that there should be multiracialism . When the White person arrived in Cape Town they bought certain land from a Griqua chief. Then the land was valued at £800 , according to history. The said Griqua chief knew nothing about money, so he wanted something tangible , and he was given goods to the That is the type of people you value of R10 . preach we should combine with. The Opposition is talking of inadequacy of the Transkei according
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And you didn't take any, that is why you came back from Fort Hare without a degree . MR. ZIBI: I have got it in my head. I want to ask him now - where does he get it that the Whites have their own homelands , the Africans have their own homelands , and the Coloureds especially? Where does he find a homeland for Coloureds? And what about the Indians ? Where are they going to find a homeland? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why put these questions to us ? We are not the Republican Parliament. MR. ZIBI : As I have already said, we appeal to the hon. the Chief Minister to come and fulfil all the promises he has from time to time made to the people of the Transkei . Today you are speaking of amalgamation of the Transkei and
34.
there and an African student died because somehow it was felt he had too much of a deal with a White lady , and when the African students complained of the sudden unceremonious death of this student, the Russians said : Let the baboons go home . (Laughter ) I thought that the goal of the Transkei Government and Opposition was the same under the law of self-preservation. That is nature . It is only natural that that principle should be upheld, so whoever goes against that nature's law is against the goal .
to population. This same Opposition says we should not combine with the Ciskei. There is no logic there. (Interjections) I repeat there is no logic there. You deprive us of our first opportunity of independence , of an opportunity to combine with other independent races , but you want us to be perpetual servants of the White people in this South Africa of ours. The White person says that unless they walk through blood they shall never come together with the Black people . (Interjections) At Cape Town, Sir de Villiers Graaff imputed that what Dr. Verwoerd wanted to grant to the Black people he would regret. He said directly you give them that much of independence , just self-government, they will demand more , and it is said that all the most influential chiefs among the Bantu have acclaimed the Promotion of Bantu Selfgovernment Act. It is acclaimed that the Act is a cornerstone of the new future of the Bantu nations . Among those chiefs were Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau of Pondoland , Chief Tshuene , chief of the Pietersburg Regional Authority, Chief Shilubane of Banuna Tribal Authority , Chief Cyprian Zulu of the Zulus and Paramount Chief Victor Poto of Western Pondoland . Those leaders felt, feel and they will always feel that self-development is the cornerstone to success . I am not going to waste your time and talk repetition after repetition. " Paramount Chief Victor Poto, one of the contenders for the post of Chief Minister in the new Transkei Legislative Assembly said today that though he favoured multi- racialism for the Transkei he would not press for its introduction before the territory had achieved full independence . He further said he would not press for immediate multiracialism in the Transkei because , although the Transkei was now being granted self-government, it would still remain part of the Republic . 'While we still only have self-government we cannot have multi -racialism . "" That is the Paramount Chief of the Transkein Territories . Now, do you want to contend, gentlemen, that the respected leader, the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland , is a liar? Do you contend that those best brains (he is one of the best leaders in this Republic ) - that he was mistaken when he spoke for separate development? At one time at Lusikisiki , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase was at the post office. He was trying to make a trunk call to his place at Lusikisiki and the European person who was at the counter said : "What do you want, boy?" (Laughter) He said to a chief "Boy" , because they will never succumb to your wishes. You talk of diplomacy and that the Transkei Government is lacking diplomacy. In their endeavour to seek independence for the Transkei the Opposition maintains that our Government has no right diplomacy , and they maintain that their diplomacy is not as they require it to be , which is " Baas " . You are not compelled to say to the White person " Baas " , when you are the Government of the Transkei. In the premises therefore , gentlemen , we are barking in the wrong direction because we will never achieve multi-racialism anywhere in this world. Throughout the world there is no multiYou will not get it in America ; you racialism . don't get it in England, said to be the " Mother of Parliaments " . The Russian people , when there was a confusion in the colleges or universities
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and members , all being honourable , I am ad idem with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that I have no confidence in this Government. Why? Because of the policy that they follow - the policy of separate development. I firmly believe in multi- racialism . This thing called separate development is a myth. There is a strange phenomenon about it . This egg was laid by an Afrikaner cock. (Laughter ) Now here in the Transkei it has been placed under a Native (with a capital letter) , a Native cockerel . (Laughter) Do you expect the hatching to be a success or a failure ? Is , in fact, the egg a real egg that was laid by an Afrikaner cock ? I have no confidence in the Transkei Government at all. Firstly, across there I see nothing but a multitude of stone throwers enclosed in a glass house . The hon. the Chief Minister ( I am going to attack him now) - he used to be a cousin-brother of mine . (Laughter ) He was brought up at my place , educated there , but now he has not even brought any "isondlo" beast to my place . ( Laughter) I expect him one day. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must come to the subject matter , please . MR. MGUDLWA: Now I come to the policy of which he is supposed to be the leader and big gun in the Government. The leader is a man of character who enjoys confidence , be it in accomplishment or in knowledge , in skill or faith, in courage.... GOVERNMENT MEMBER :
Which he has.
MR. MGUDLWA: ...in zeal or in love . But as a rule , in more than one respect, has he got any of these characteristics that are the hallmark of a leader who has to lead a government? I have come to the conclusion that in fact this policy, this leprosy called " separate development " , is an invitation to political suicide and national suicide . I know the Chief Minister. He is the type of man who would like to commit suicide without himself being killed , if he can help it. (Laughter ) I have no confidence in a government that , in fact, to me seems to be like a piece of tomfoolery or horse-play. I will come now to the component parts that form this government of the Transkei . They remind me of the Catalina conspiracy , when Catalina was in 63 B.C. the unsuccessful candidate for the consulship . The elections had cost him a great deal of money . In a desperate attempt to retrieve his fortunes , he organised a rebellion. Now his followers were burnt-up nobles like himself, discontented voters , illiterate peasants ,
35.
THE CHIEF order....
outlaws, thieves . Now I have got to come to the Cabinet as it is. (Laughter) Not so long ago (I think it was in December) provisional sequestration proceedings were introduced against the hon. the Minister of Education....
MINISTER :
On a point of
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, you must discuss the vote of no confidence only. Don't refer to personalities , please .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is out of order in terms of rule 40 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I still appeal to you that the hon. member should withdraw the remarks he has made.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think the hon. member is committing a very grave disregard of the rules of this House . Instead of discussing the motion he attacks personalities .
THE CHAIRMAN : Will you withdraw those remarks , hon. member?
MR. MGUDLWA : I am attacking the Government.
MR. MGUDLWA: I withdraw , Mr. Chairman. Now I wonder who on earth should have confidence in a government that is composed of - for
THE CHIEF MINISTER : the conduct of a person.
instance , I have a cutting here . A Government member has recently been convicted of theft. Here is the cutting. (Laughter)
You cannot attack
THE CHIEF MINISTER : hon. members ....
MR. MGUDLWA : I am attacking the Cabinet. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : personal charge . THE CHIEF MINISTER : withdraw that.
That is a THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I shall adjourn the house until 2.15 p.m.
I think he must
The debate was adjourned .
THE CHAIRMAN: If I am right, the hon. member was still driving to a point. He had not yet made any allegation.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order I want to draw the attention of the House to rule 40 to 42. These are very important rules . "A member shall not make a personal charge or use offensive or unbecoming words in reference to any member of the Assembly, " That is rule 40. No. 41 reads : "A member shall not use offensive expressions about the conduct or proNo. 42 : ceedings of the Assembly. " " The personal conduct or any alleged improper motives of a member shall not be referred to except on a substantive motion moved for that purpose. " He had already made reference and therefore I submit he has got to withdraw the remark he made . (Interjections) THE ask the subject mention
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon, members , I still reiterate the fact that I have no confidence in the Government. Whom the gods wish to destroy they first make him drunk with power. Power is a worse concoction than Jabulani . I have no confidence in the Transkei Government. It is common knowledge that in fact someone was convicted of theft of public money. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, I ask you not to refer to anything of this nature .
Order, please. I shall CHAIRMAN : hon. member to confine himself to the matter of the motion and not to make of people's names .
MR. MGUDLWA: It is common knowledge that the policy the Government is following of separate development is a myth . I repeat that. Multi-racialism is the only realistic policy. In fact, I have come to the conclusion that separate development and communism are fellow pilgrims, both travelling to the cities of Nevernever and the cities of destruction; both heavyladen with the seeds of disaster and the seeds of their own destruction; both groping in the dark blindly and facing a dangerous quagmire. I still say this egg, if it is a proper egg, laid by an Afrikaner cock and then placed for hatching under this Native cockerel , bodes nothing but doom for the Transkei. We are not interested in a Transkei that is a land of bigoted opportunists , we are interested in an Africa that is a land of opportunity. I will touch now on the recent general election. I see nothing in them other than a complete reversal of the theory of Darwinism - that is , a direct reversal of the philosophy of the survival of the fittest and the elimination of the unfit.
MR. MGUDLWA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. As I was driving to a point , I am going to reach the point now. THE CHIEF MINISTER : nonsensical now. MR. MGUDLWA: I in a Government at a were proceeded with. acting Chief Minister a man's status .
MR. MGUDLWA : insolvent...
You are being
can have no confidence time when proceedings The hon. Minister was and I think that affects
THE CHIEF MINISTER : nonsense .
Mr. Chairman and
You are talking
And if a man becomes
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It was, in fact, as I will show, the elimination of the fittest and the survival of the unfit. Why? Sacrificing conscience to gain power is the same thing as a negligent driver who ruins his engine to gain speed . Now, Mr. Chairman, where is the confidence in such a government? Recently in Cape Town there were common words that in the Republican Parliament there was reference to a member having been elected . The member was placed in a position of responsibility and top management. The story is that he had recently been expelled as a lecturer and subsequently thereafter he was banned. In fact , banning I think is a milder term for being outlawed. Today that member....
arrange what should be done for the people of the Transkei without any guesswork. I think that goes to support the contention that the Opposition has failed to place anything tangible before us. The only policy which gives anything to the Transkei citizens is the policy of separate development. Those members of the Opposition who have been spreading stories probably heard them when General Smuts delivered his address in the Savoy Hotel , London. There he emphatically stated that non - Whites and Whites would never sit together in the Cape Town Parliament . A similar statement was repeated by the late General Hertzog in 1925 when he stated that the Bantu people should try to find out what would be good for them , as they would never set foot in the White Parliament in Cape Town. Over and above what has been said in this House , the Democratic Party should tell us what should be done, rather than leading people rashly. As they tell us that multi - racialism should be adopted, they should produce statements made bythe White people in support thereof. Even if there are some differences in the White community , they all maintain that we should live separately . One of the hon. members of this House stated that this policy has been borrowed from the Republic. A motion to request this self-government from the Republican Government was made by a member of this House . That hon. member is in the House today. This same member says the reason he has no confidence in the Government is because the Government accepted Bantu education. When Bantu education was introduced for the first time , certain people were sent from this House to raise objections against it, but on their return one of the members who is today present in the House said that Bantu education was good . The Transkei Government supports the needs of the people . One of the needs has been mentioned by one of the hon. members , when he criticized the leader of the Government for going to the Transvaal and promising scholarships to the people . I wish to inform that hon. member that in former times there was only one scholarship which was tenable for three years , and only after that period could another scholarship be granted . Today these scholarships are granted to two students annualy and they do not have to wait until one has finished . He also made reference to the allow-
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who is that? It is a fact that he may MR. MGUDLWA : (Interjections) be a member of this House. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who is he ? MR. MGUDLWA: Why should I have confidence in a government because , in the light of my own naive way of thinking, he is in a position of glory and disgrace. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : member ?
Who is that
MR. MGUDLWA: I am not frightened by the members on the other side. Ihave no confidence in the Transkei Government because the very Government showed no confidence in its own self ( Laughter) - erstwhile Ministers who are no longer Ministers of the Cabinet. I remember one of them on the 19th November proposed , and the other seconded , and the following day they were axed from the Government. Where is the confidence there? If I am a third party, if the Government itself has no confidence in itself, should I have confidence ? I remeber when I was transferred as a civil servant, I came to Umtata as a civil servant a complete disregard of family life and disruption of family life , no house provided for me and my family or funiture . Where is the confidence there ? Are there any quarters for civil servants here in Umtata? Whenever the so- called seconded officials come from Pretoria , in their exodus to Umtata, they know in fact that they have sure accommodation. Where is the accommodation for the Transkei civil servants ? Today you are told to report on such and such a day for duty. They are not interested in whether you live in the forest or not, but you must report for duty. Where is the confidence ? Common knowledge has it that in fact, after having been a boardingmaster in one institution, that hon. gentleman failed. He used to be called " Rede" .
ances granted to the Coloured people . I am only sorry this hon. member wil not stand up . I would ask him, as the debate today is on a question of no confidence , if we are discussing Coloured allowances . I would ask the Opposition to change their minds and try to find out whether anything was done for the people of the Transkei prior to the reigh of this Transkei Government, but because they are obstinately jealous of the portfolios held by the present Cabinet , they have no time to consider the question of what has been done for the people . They will never be cabinet ministers . I am not a fool and we are not all members of the Cabinet . When they speak of things that have never been done , I wish these people to go and meet the people outside and see if they will not be thrashed for telling the people that nothing has been done. In former times there were White lady typistes in the offices , but since the advent of the present Government we see African women typistes in
MR. R. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment that this House has confidence in the Government, but I have a heavy duty before me to try to remove all the nonsense that has been spoken. Firstly, the last speaker abused the leadership. I maintain that the Transkei Government has a good leader who knows what should be done - a leader who knows the wants of the Transkei people , a leader who knows how to
37.
the late Cecil Rhodes is a matter to which you will hold fast. Several times the hon. member, speaking here , referred to the statement hat separate development would only be effective when the 3,807,465 Africans who are called idlers have been sent back to their homes. (Interjections ) As it is , the Transkei is already overpopulated, even before the three million superfluous Africans have been sent back home. I wonder then how the Transkei will be able to accommodate this exceedingly high number of residents ?
the offices. Do they mean today that their children should be removed from these posts and replaced by White children? Nevertheless I believe they are capable of doing so, because I have heard them say that Bantu clerks should Previously, not be employed at Fort Hare . did you ever see tractors helping the people in the drought- stricken areas as they do today? That is something that has been done by the present Government. Previously, did you ever hear of people being given work by the Government when there was poverty in the country ? I heard the hon. the Leader of the Opposition saying something. (Interjections) I was wide awake when he was speaking. You have seen a person who has taken Jabulani . Whenever anything is said, his question will refer to Jabulani . The Government has not destroyed the people , but it is the means of giving them a livelihood. You can ask anyone who has been doing this work and see what they say.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are these all Transkeians ? CHIEF MAJEKE : Most of these people are Transkeian. I would like to tell you one thing further. (Interjections) Here is one other thing I would like to put across to you. Seeing that you are constantly quoting from the late members who are actually the people who have brought about this separate development policy.... ( interjections)
MR. K.M. GUZANA: We say you must give them more . That is what we are saying. What is 25 cents a day?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . My friend can talk of MR. MSENGANA : nothing else but influx control , when we are here discussing a question of no confidence . This is what surprises me , because he is a person who knows the law and he should know that influx control is not a child of the Transkei Government. He went further and criticized the leader of the Government when he went to consult with the Republican Government. All they have to say is something about the general election . I liken these elections to the court which was discussing a certain case for a period of five years, showing the people what should be done and the people themselves have shown that they realise what has been done for them . But I tell you that during this period and the next five years there will be another judgement passed and there will only be two members left on your side.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Will you listen! This is what I would like to tell you. You remember there was a university lecturer who was known as Mafeje , who went overseas. This Mafeje is an African whose home was in Emboland in the Tsolo district. This lecturer was invited to come as a senior lecturer to the University of Cape Town. He was denied that opportunity by the Government of the Republic of South Africa, but the students of the University of Cape Town rose against the decision of the Republican These were , and are , the sons of Government. the people who refused this privilege being extended to the African lecturer. Seeing that no-one knows what wil happen in the future , I will appeal to the person who supports the policy of separate development and who says the policy of multi-racialism will never , never be realised , not to be so sure of what the future may hold for this country. I give this to you as homework and I would like you to prepare yourselves to reply to these statements. This Transkei that you boast so much about, you maintain it will be a country for the Africans only , but I would like to point out to you that the Transkei at the present moment is on sale at a very high price which cannot be reached by the African people.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. MSENGANA : The people have seen that you climb up on their shoulders and give them nothing. They have seen the result. I say you are climbing up to this House in order to get money. (Interjections) The Transkei Government has done well and will continue to render good service.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: are the auctioneer.
Mr. Chairman and CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : to associate myself like , I would hon. members with the motion moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, and certainly not with the amendment which has been labelled a counterFirstly , I would like motion by the Chair . to point out that of all the Government members , I have not discovered a single one who has given a tangible reply to the facts brought up by this side . All I would like to say is that your leader expressed his surrender in no uncertain terms . He quoted the late General Hertzog and the late General Smuts , referring to statements made by them in their lifetime: It has become quite clear to us that whatever was said by the late General Smuts or the late General Hertzog or
And you
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you discussing the motion now, hon. member? CHIEF MAJEKE : Yes, I am discussing the motion of no confidence . I would like to know why the trading stations which are within the Transkei are not sold to the African people, but rather to the XDC at very exorbitant prices . We go further and ask why this Government decided to abolish the protective five - mile or two-mile radius that existed before , saying that any and everybody should be granted a licence to trade round the existing trading stations . We would like to know where such licensees could
38.
rake up capital to run these businesses , whereas the XDC would be calling for this high figure which could not be met by....
said in this particular meeting, they rushed to the Tsolo meeting in great numbers to listen to this glad news , but they came back disappointed and disgusted that the Minister at the second meeting completely contradicted what the first one had said .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Make a correct statement. The XDC pays the goodwill which the African buyer cannot pay. It sells the propery at a lesser price.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Were you present at Tsolo?
CHIEF MAJEKE: Let me come now to properties in the urban areas. In the urban areas which the hon. A the Chief Minister said would be sold and given to the African people ultimately, I would like to point out that while we go to bid for these properties the XDC puts up the price illimitably.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Ask that hon. chief behind you . He will tell you. He was perturbed. I was not myself. I remember we were advised to drive our stock from Tsolo to Lambasi - can you imagine that long distance ? whereas there was green grass at Maclear on the boundary of Qumbu. I remember too on a previous occasion when there was a drought in the Republic , the hon. the Chief Minister and the former Minister of Agriculture allowed stock from the Republic to go and graze in the Umzimkulu area because they said there was sufficient grazing in the Transkei , and they said the Transkei would help the Republic and vice versa . Maclear was very close to us and the people of Tsolo area said this was a proposal of marriage . They said that was the whole purpose . We would like the Cabinet Ministers to know this , especially the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . In the Qumbu area tractors and other machinery was sent in an effort to build reservoirs . This was a very hard-hit area, but these machines were turned en route to a different area where they were put to build dams , and the hon. member representing that area is at present on the Government side . While it is clear that the Government favours certain members ....
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And what will happen when you let the Indians in, as you want? CHIEF MAJEKE : Let us speak of things as they are. It does not help to speak about money when we know the people ofthe Transkei are poor. If you were to calculate the amount of income that comes to the Transkei and relate it to the population of the Transkei , you will discover how very small that amount is as compared with the amount of money handled by the XDC . One other hon. member who has just sat down said that today our young daughters are employed as typistes and he says that would not have happened if it had not been for the existence of the Transkei Government. I can tell you of a number of African women typistes who were already employed before the existence of this Government. If you do not know this I will quote examples to you. A member said there were no relief funds before the existence of the Transkei Government. I would like him to read the reports of the Bunga which had relief measures for the poor. Our leaders go away from here and when they meet the public they say that South Africa belongs to us all and that we should play on the black and white notes of the organ.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mention names. CHIEF MAJEKE : These tractors had to stay there for two weeks doing nothing , and they were taken to Nqayi area which is very well watered , and this is a bad reflection on the Government. MR. M. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to speak on the no- confidence motion and I wish everyone would listen carefully while I tell you of the achievements of the Government in the past few years of its power. On the first occasion when you asked for self-government you were unanimous and you were given self-government. On the return of the delegation you destroyed the old Bunga which you had criticized . We came to the conclusion then that the Bunga was a small business and we wanted a larger business , so that we could enjoy the privileges we now enjoy. When I look at things I see the Government has taken to heart the interests of everybody .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: But the black note remains black. MR. GUZANA : But you don't have all the black notes at one end and the white at the other. You play on them together and the white are interspersed with the black. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: But we are dealing with human affairs . THE CHIARMAN : speaker continue .
Order , please .
Let the
CHIEF MAJEKE : Further , Mr. Chairman, very late after the effects of this dangerous and disastrous drought in the Transkei , they come out hurriedly and stop everybody at every turn to try to meet the effects of this drought . One hon. Minister in the Qumbu area says one thing, and I will give you an example. There were people from Tsolo that day and the Minister spoke very well. I won't mention his name , but it was stated that the following day they were addressed in Tsolo by a different Minister . Seeing the people approved of what the Minister
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. MASIKO : Look at the five Ministers under the hon. the Chief Minister . My advice to you is , from tomorrow morning visit their offices to find out what can be done for you. I am moved by what the last speaker said , to the effect that livestock has died from drought. It is because he did not take the advice of going to the Ministers ' offices. Day by day there are
39 .
You are placing us in a very dangerous position to suggest that we should take European liquor. If you drink it you will be thin and emaciated. Give Jabulani a chance because it is a bodybuilder. All you can do is level criticisms , but you must not say that we should do away with our traditional beer. You and I have full confidence in the Government. You also appreciate it but you will not admit it. Today we see tractors operating in the administrative areas · a thing unknown formerly. With this present Government we are campaigning for the payment of headmen as wel : as sub- headmen. Let us come together to campaign for more departments as those are not enough. If you do not appreciate this then come and see me outside The five (Laughter) in a certain corner . Ministers under the Prime Minister (by the way, do you understand that we want him to be termed "Prime Minister"? You must get that designation into your heads ) - we want more portfolios under the Prime Minister , so please The reason we cannot don't stand in our way. get these things is because you stand in our way like a drunk man who stands begging. Every administrative area today has a lot of good grazing and the Government is assisting us in getting forage . Have you seen people with hair on the back of their necks ? That is now
trucks which come to find out what stock the people want sent from the drought areas . I am trying to show that the Government has taken reasonable steps in this direction, as you should bear me out. Formerly the people did not know where they were going, but today it is dawn. I hope you will turn over a new page and join us in getting more departments . The departments we have are not enough. In the Nqamakwe area we had trucks coming on three occasions to move stock to better grazing areas. You say you have no confidence in the Government, but they gave everybody tractors to plough because the Government did not want us to be slaves, so they offered us tractors as well as money and asked anybody who could help the Transkei people to plough for the people. You heard the remark of the hon. member here yesterday that the Government should try and extend the time of payment for the tractors because the crops have failed. Come with us into the offices of the Government. You have heard they are planning for the benefit of everybody. I advise you to approach any one of the Ministers when we adjourn to find out where you can get help . The people who gave you a mandate to come to the Assembly wanted you to try and get benefits for them . I think in your own administrative areas there are labour recruits. When the Government found it could not get work for the people it went outside the borders to see if they could find work for the people. Today the doors of any labour centre are open and all this would not have happened unless the Ministers went out to see what they could do . In other words , the representatives of the people must find out what their needs are . From the remarks of the last speaker I can come to no other conclusion than that he does not realise that the people are now reaping the benefits of this Government . I am not feeding you, but after we adjourn come and tell me you have lost weight. Thousands who have given you a mandate to come here expect something of benefit , not just empty words . Go back to the policy which you asked for in Pretoria - namely , separate development. The benefits we have enjoyed since separate development are enormous. If we go to the Republic we know there are separate doors for us. If my chief and I are ordered into a European kitchen, we do not complain. Let us abide by section 10. We want to be separated from the White people. When our chief accepted separate development the people enjoyed their own privileges . In his area there are seven
à sign of the illiterate . The reason the Government has gone to the trouble of getting tractors and So on is because it wants tradition to remain, and not to be destroyed . When these books of the regulations were distributed to us we hoped you would all come and support the Transkei Government. We hoped that you would Have help us ask for more departments . courage ! Everything has been planned for. All the offices today are staffed by the Transkei Your sons are enjoying the same citizens. privileges and you must make provision now for the people you are supposed to lead. Nothing is worse than that people should be divided Mr. instead of going along the same road. Chairman and hon. members , the very last election has shown that the people have confidence in the Government. After we adjourn, do your best to see me so that I may lead you to the proper offices. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall not go over the remarks made by what are beginners in a primary school. I woul like , however , to make reference to the speech of the last speaker from Nqamakwe area, the hon. Mr. Masiko. He mentioned three matters relating to dipping foremen, grazing and messengers of the court. I would like to begin on the question of grazing and why , in an area where they had accepted rehabilitation, they had to take their stock to an area which had not accepted rehabilitation , because the Transkei Government holds that there is plenty of grazing in rehabilitated areas . ( Interjections ) It is not only in the Kentani area , but everywhere throughout the Transkei , that we have lean, emaciated stock which feed at the edge of the kraals. Referring to another matter, they pride themselves on the fact that they now have African messengers of the court and I would like the hon. member to know that these African messengers of the court merely collect arrear
trading stations managed by Bantu under the In the same present Transkei Government. district there are positions which have been vacated by the Whites , such as messenger of the court and dipping foreman. One day he spoke at a gathering and there was no resistance on his part because he appreciates the policy of separate development. Last month we removed a White official and replaced him by a Bantu . It will not happen again that positions which are for Bantu will be taken by Whites in the Transkei . Come and join us so that we can campaign for more departments , as those are not enough. Even in respect of this Jabulani I would not like any members to refer to it again. It is not because we are pregnant that we have round bellies · it is our own mealie beer. (Laughter) 40.
scale for the African. I want to state that what you are accepting is being inferior to a Coloured. It has been mentioned by one of our members, but I want to give details . The Coloured Council or Colouredstan which is being established has been granted R60 million for its development. Now a Coloured man occupying the position of the Chief Minister's status will receive R6,000 a year of which R1,000 will be tax free . His four members , more or less the Cabinet - R5,000 a year of which R1,000 will be tax free. Now, coming to the members , just as we are - R1,500 a year of which R800 is tax free. On the figures I have given, more in particular in regard to the members of this Assembly, it is a disgrace for them to be paid R80 a month.
taxes , but never anything in connection with the decisions of the court. I would like to find out from him whether he knows that the remuneration paid to the African messengers of the court is in no way comparable to that paid to European messengers . He referred to dipping foremen and European dipping foremen received higher remuneration that that now paid to African dipping foremen. I refer these matters to you, even though I know they are suitable only for the attention of primary school children. Το warm myself up , I will have to make a few comments on the departmental procedures, beginning with the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. We usually have an expression that a new broom sweeps clean. To my knowledge the new Minister of Agriculture has already done a gread deal of harm to the territories. In Butterworth there is a mini-factory for phormium tenax. This factory was closed down for about six months in favour of an XDC company,
THE CHIEF MINISTER : it was under the Bunga?
Do you know what
MR. DUMALISILE : Under this figure and with reference to what the speaker said that we should be an example to the citizens of the Transkei , I wonder ifthe hon. the Chief Minister realises the fact that by accepting separate development it only means that I , as a member getting R80 a month , cannot even make a decent toilet out of it.
the excuse being the shortage of water due to the drought. This Jabulani scheme which has been introduced by the XDC I think consumes millions of gallons of water. I think it would have been advisable for him to cart water from the Gcuwa River to irrigate all the fields round Butterworth, instead of using water for Jabulani which has done such a lot of damage to the Transkei people . There has been a boast about relief funds and fodder to animals. To my knowledge , this is only applied to rehabilitated areas. Why should the rehabilitated areas have preference when all the other areas are suffering the same ? I give you that homework. I have not much to say on the Department of the Interior , but I have a reservation in that connection. Some of the chiefs we have are agents and are selling TNIP cards. Their threat is that anybody who does not buy that ticket will not get an old age or disability pension, or anyone applying must buy the ticket before his application can be considered . I think those are some of the things you have to work on, otherwise we will always bring this motion of no confidence in this Government.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Suppose you were a member of the Bunga, (you say you want the Bunga again) it was only paying R30 a session that is all. MR. DUMALISILE : It becomes embarrassing when you have Government members invited to these installations and there is not even a place to answer to No. 1 call , hence most of these members are always subject to criminal arrests for misappropriation of funds. There has been a cry about the relief fund . I want to know how this relief fund is being collected, though I know where to pitch my tent. I will have reference to this - I have a ground in the Department of Education where I have to pitch my tent, because I think this relief fund is that there have been some married women employed by the Education Department.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: And if it is proved not true , will you move a vote of confidence?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Temporarily.
MR. DUMALISILE: That will never be proved.
MR. DUMALISILE : Yes , that's right , and just last year in December the schools were closed on the 6th December and those ladies were only paid up to that date , without notice .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Anyway, will you bring us positive cases? MR. DUMALISILE: In good time. I am sorry the hon. the Chief Minister is not here . I will have to put it this way: Wise men change their minds , but fools do not. In Cape Town the Prime Minister of the Republic amongst other things was confronted by many questions , and what he said about separate development and its failure was that "it is not for us , but we are laying Only our sons will see the the foundation. result. " Where are their sons ? In the University. They want Mr. Mafeje ; they want students to join the Students ' Representative Council. On account of all those things we say this separate development is a bluff and , in accepting separate development which is sometimes termed " parallel development" , I want to say in this House that it is only accepting a mealie - pap salary
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: not true .
That is
MR. DUMALISILE : The only notice that appeared was in the Daily Dispatch.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They were given notice. MR. DUMALISILE : If there was notice it was indirect, because it came through the district clerks , and they have been re-employed, as I am standing here , up to the 12th December this year. That is what is on the forms. That is how this money said to be a relief fund comes about. ( Laughter)
41 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Don't talk nonsense. Relief funds have nothing to do with education .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Department is not ware of that.
MR. DUMALISILE : This is very similar to cutting off the tails of the dogs and feeding them with their own tails . (Laughter) Now I will turn to education, but before I begin with that I want to put it to the hon. the Minister of Education that he has ignored the regional authorities , the committees of the schools .
MR . DUMALISILE: Wait a bit. You wanted to know and I am telling you . It is contained in the minutes and the minutes are sent to the Department.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is not true . Ask the head of the regional authority in your area.
MR . DUMALISILE : What I know is that the out-going teacher recommended for an inspectorship blocked the way of the man who was sent to Jalamba .
MR . DUMALISILE : I wil not ask him . will tell you what I know. (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot blame the Government for things they do not know.
I THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is that you agree the acting principal had been recommended by the regional authority. What more do you want?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . I think the hon. the MR. DUMALISILE : Minister of Education has a tendency to have pals.
MR. DUMALISILE : I want the correct things. Further, I am still digging the first hole . We on this side are opposed to ministerial level of appointments .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a reflecThe Minister does not employ staff. tion.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that? Who should appoint the staff?
MR. DUMALISILE : I will quote a statement made by a teacher to me directly in connection with the appointment at Fort Malan school . This teacher does not belong to this school , he is the principal of another school adjacent to that location, and, to make you clear about it , that teacher was at Nqadu location during the celebration for Chieftainess Nozizwe . It was wet that day and because the teacher was trying to be loyal to the Minister of Education , so that when he walked he would not walk in the mud, he laid himself down. ( Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : sense .
But the
MR. DUMALISILE : What is contained in the principle is that the Minister of Education will approve the appointment . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
What does he do?
MR. DUMALISILE : You are asking me what he does. The first principle is that the Minister of Education is a political head of the Department. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He is not forced to approve of every recommendation.
You can talk non-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: denying that?
MR. DUMALISILE : This teacher said to me : "We have taken So-and- so to Jalamba Secondary School " , and when he saw that I was a bit surprised he had second thoughts, because I asked him : "When you say 'we ' , what do you mean?" and he said : "The Department . "
Who is
MR. DUMALISILE : The political head is always all over , and to hang on and wait for the approval of the Minister takes a long time , hence most of the schools up to the present have no teachers.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Can you be taken seriously? You just say things which come from your own heart.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who should employ the teachers ? Do you want to employ the teachers?
MR. DUMALISILE: I am serious . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , up to now I have been disappointed at the manner in which the mini- Opposition has successfully failed in voicing its non- confidence in us . Never saw I, and never listened I to people talking such tripe. Some people ... (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who is the present principal of Fort Malan primary school ? MR. DUMALISILE : He is a man who is close to retirement. He is acting - Mr. Tsutsu .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now , wasn't he recommended by the regional authority?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Some people , in order not to lose face , refuse to face realities , not only to their own detriment but to that of others . You know, they walk throughout life like mules with blinkers who see only what is in front of them . ( Laughter) The unexpected , a change from what has been,
MR. DUMALISILE : I am coming to that. In the minutes of the regional authority the executive committee decided to recommend Mr. Tsutsu but the full regional authority meeting nullified that decision.
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is always met with fear fear to venture into the unknown. They grew up with the administration in the hands of the Whites and they will not give that up . Fear to face the realities of life and, worst of all , fear to face responsibility . They would rather pretend that they are multiracial in outlook for, without John, without Richard , without Montgomery to lean upon, they are powerless . They are forever content to be shadows. You know, most of you have been to school , I believe , and amongst other things you did the poem " The Lady of Shalott" . Even for the Lady of Shalott there came a time when she grew tired of the world of shadows and she ventured into the unknown. My friends over there present this picture to the world. You know, they pretend to be big- hearted individuals . They say : No, we don't want self-government for the Transkei ; we want the kind of government which will embrace everyone from the Cape to Cairo. How can a person offer to fix someone else's house when his own is in need of repair? I will read what Dr. R.W.H. Shepherd said at Fort Hare (he is said to be a world authority on African affairs , by the way). Dr. Shepherd said: "We live in a time when there are many calls for an international spirit and are bidden to have concern not so much for our own people as for all people . Although this has much to commend it, true internationalism is much more beneficial and fruitful when it has at its source a deep love for one's own people. " And our immediate concern is the people of the Transkei. "Love for all mankind is good, but it is sure to gain and strengthen if it springs from a deep love for one's own folk, their history, manner of life and eminent national leaders , " said Dr. Shepherd. To go back to this multi- racialism of yours , to a discerning person it is fairly clear that you only think in terms of the first portion of the word " multi " , which means "many" · and you feel that if there are many people you will lose yourselves and not be directly responsible for anything. (Laughter ) You have always believed in influencing, rather that in actively participating , and what can we do with people who are so short-sighted (Interjections) people who have no light of their own, who would rather shine by the reflected light of others ? People who live and believe in reflected glory? I must tell you this , prodigal sons of the Transkei : ( Laughter ) Fear not to venture into the unknown. We are here to guide you to full self-realisation . Of course , unlike the story of the original prodigal son there will be no fatted calf for you , but we shall be willing to welcome you back into the fold. Now, turning to the general elections I will focus my attention on what happened at Lusikisiki and you will pardon me if I start further back. When the Lambasi project was first started, an erstwhile member of this House went about among the people of Lambasi area telling them to react, I must say in a violent way, to what was happening, asking them why they stood by while their land was being sold under their very noses . I must say that for a while the people believed him , but they soon O came to their senses . Call this what you like call it impudence , call it audacity but it is surprising to find this very same man singing a totally different tune , and that was last year .
He said : "You know , you must vote for me and I will make the Transkei Government (can you imagine ? - make the Transkei Government ) increase these tea plantations so that there will be more work for you . " (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : " I will even go to the extent of making the Transkei Government not to have a decorticating factory at Butterworth , but at Lusikisiki , and I will even go and consult the Paramount Chief. We are working for you and creating work opportunities I ask you - what tune is at your doorstep. " your friend now singing ? He was so desperate at one stage that he even used our manifesto because he had nothing to say for himself. (Laughter) I will make this appeal on his behalf and on that of his other two colleagues - that you make a contribution, since they lost so much money on liquor gifts that you make a financial contribution to your friends at Lusikisiki . You know, these days the headmen whom vou call stupid are one the wiser than you. They take gifts but stick to their beliefs . ( Laughter) And you call that " chiefs ' diet" . (Interjections ) Chiefs ' diet indeed , but they are wiser than you . CHIEF G.M. MABAND LA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I will ask the hon. lady to continue , but it was stated that people should not mention names and one member on this side had to stop because of that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn. The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 29th April , 1969. TUESDAY, 29th APRIL , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret to announce the absence of the following members due to circumstances beyond their control : Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo, Chief Hlomendlini Magadla , the Minister of Justice , Chief J.D. Moshesh . With regard to the last, I have just received a doctor's certificate to the effect that he has to be in bed because of ' flu. I am not sure whether Chief Magadla did attend any of the sessions , but I happened to see him in hospital on Sunday evening. Now, Paramount Chief Sabata has been absent right through the sessions and I would request an agreement in this House that all these three be paid their sessional allowances because their absence is due to circumstances beyond their control . In terms of the rules , any member who is absent from this House for a session loses his seat unless this House by resolution 43.
there is usually a reaction of some kind or another. The students of the University in
agrees to condone his absence . I move accordingly.
question usually stage protests protesting against the admission of a Black (that is now a Negro) Even parents into their White universities . react in a similar way. Who are we , if multiracialism cannot work in America, to think it can work in South Africa? We have heard too in the Press about some Americans (that is , the Negroes in America) who are beginning to believe that the only way which will lead them to salvation or a solution of the racial problem is by being separated. If I quote Cassius Clay , you must not say that simply because he is a boxer, and because of the knocks he received , his reasoning became impaired . He has , however , made loud cries for the separation of the races . It boils down to one thing - a question of "live and let live". Some of us, especially
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to second this resolution based on circumstances beyond one's control . I say no more . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , my attention has been drawn to another member of this Assembly, Chief Gecelo of Cala , who is also in hospital in Cala . I understand he has not been able to attend this session because he has had to be admitted to hospital. I am certain he should have been here if he was well.
Agreed to. NO CONFIDENCE
my hon. friends on the Opposition side , try to be blind to realities . Your cry for a multiracial society, if I remember well, dates way back from 1963 and I believe it is a cry which should have moved quite a number of tribes within the Republic of South Africa . But instead of having a number of people being multiracialistic in outlook, what do we get ? We seem to be getting different tribes having their own systems of government and not based on multiracialism but on separate development. If yours had been a stronger voice , if multiracialism had been an accepted policy, that cry should have been felt. ( Interjections ) Of course we have a number of these Zionist Chirstians . (Laughter) Anyway, I will tell you this and this should be the operative word: Use what you get in order to get what you want . I find multi- racialism a dream and with some people it is fast becoming an obsession , and once people become obsessed they cease to reason well . I do realise (I will say "my friends " , because you are my friends although we think differently) you are trying to reach for the impossible . Why try to dash your head against a stone?
The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Still harping on this question of multi- racialism .... MR. K.M. GUZANA: have not been addressed .
Mr. Chairman, you
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I am sorry, I was being distracted by aflea which was buzzing on the other side and I forgot myself. (Laughter ) Mr. Chairman, hon. members, I am sorry I made that mistake . To come to facts , I was saying at times you find that people who believe in multi - racialism use it merely as a password. I have a case here of a man I will call " Mr. X" . When Mr. X was campaigning in district B, instead of stating clearly what his policy was.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is not a member of this House. You may name him. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Anyway, I will continue. He thought it better not only to say what he had to say, but to divide a tribe into clans . Remember, Mr. X is multi-racialistic in outlook. How can you expect a person with such an outlook to divide a tribe into clans ? I will leave the Opposition to describe what the policy is in which this person now believes .
CHIEF H.Z. ZULU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether some members are being allowed extra time ? THE CHAIRMAN: We are not allowing more time. The hon. member spoke for 15 minutes yesterday and I have got to give her another 15 minutes today.
MR. GUZANA : Does "apartheid" believe in dividing people into clans ?
THE MINISTER OF Anyway, Mr. Chairman will now try to correct statements which were
ROADS AND WORKS : and hon. members , I some of the erroneous made yesterday. One of the speakers said that when fodder is being supplied it is only supplied to those areas which are being rehabilitated . It is true that priority is being given to those areas which suffered the scourge of the drought severely , be they rehabilitated or not, and in those areas which are not (I have got this from a reliable source , and that is none other than the hon. the Minister of Agriculture) ... ( Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : I shall not answer that one. I am speaking of other things . MR . GUZANA :
What are the other things?
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : A number of us have been influenced by Western culture and my friends over there , through their 'belief in the council system, still cling to Western organisation. To put my point across I will use America as an example . We would expect the Americans to be totally multiTime and time again racialistic in outlook. we have read through the Press of how, whenever a Negro student is admitted into a White College ,
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Anyway, in those areas they are going to fence
44.
the country. I am fully ware of the misunderstanding among the people who do not fully realise the aims and objects of this policy. What we stand for is that Black and White shall have the same identical privileges in this country . ( Interjections ) We must feel we belong anywhere in the country . In her speech the hon. the Minister of Roads referred to America , pointing out that there is misunderstanding there among the people . It is possibly true that her statement is according to fact, but here is one It is due to the of the reasons responsible . influence of very many European people who come from this country and influence people in America . She also referred to a manifesto used by a member of the Democratic Party. She put it plainly that the poor , destitute member of the Democratic Party...
the areas and then supply the fodder so that it will not be just scattered abroad; and I am sure the hon. member who was under a misapprehension could be better informed by the agricultural officer at Idutywa. Then on the question of salaries .... ( Interjections ) I helped you to repair you bus route when you came to my office. ( Laughter )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: In connection with those areas where you get both White and Bantu messengers of the court, the Bantu messenger serves all processes on Bantu offenders , and the White one on non- Transkeian citizens who are relatively fewer in number. It stands to reason that the Bantu messenger of the court gets a better salary than that of the White one. It is a responsible government which takes good care of its aged and disabled. Are you aware that at present there are 70,000 pension beneficiaries? And it is a responsible
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who is supporting you? MR. JAFTA: With reference to the manifesto which she mentioned , I would like to point out one thing which I do not think she quite understands . The TNIP manifesto had nine headings to it. Of the nine headings , seven were raised by this side of the House - the Democratic Party.
government which will go all out to find employment for its people . It is a responsible government which wil try and raise a fund to relieve the distressed. This Government of ours knows that people have to be trained in order to fill important posts. I will quote what the Department of Justice , for instance , has done to date on those lines : "During 1968 good progress was made in the field of training. Ten officers started law at the University College of Fort Hare . Eight of them passed all their subjects and one of them completed his law studies . Nine of these officers received a bursary granted by the Public Service Commission. Of the 20 officers who started part-time at the University of South Africa , 16 of them were in receipt of bursaries awarded by the public Service Commission. " Anyway, I think that answers you on the university bursary question, so you can see that this is indeed a very responsible Government.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR . JAFTA: black and white.
These things are written in
CHIEF M. TANTSI : On a point of order , why does he not share a meal with the Europeans and sit at the same table ? ( Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR . JAFTA: Let it be plainly understood that this particular candidate was expressing the views that are held by the Democratic Party. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He was speaking the language of the Government.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
MR . JAFTA : Not one on the Government side will refute what I am saying , that seven of the nine headings were mentioned by the Democratic Party. (Interjections ) I would like to refer to the hon . the Chief Minister who boasts of the great victory he has won. I will ask him to put aside these three facts and , if he puts them aside , I say he would not have the power and victory he has won. The three things are Proclamation R400 , 180 days ' detention and house arrest.
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to associate myself with the motion that the Transkei Government has not the confidence of the people . We on this side will fight and continue to fight against separate development and separate settlement ofdifferent tribes and so on. I just rise to speak after the speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works because in her speech there were remarks which were unpleasant and defamatory , but I will not concern myself with them. One of her statements was that they are concerned entirely with the Transkei and she went on to say they would like to sweep their own house clean first. Let me put it plainly to her, that we stand to amalgamate the Transkei and the Republic and we aim to sweep clean that whole house . Our sons and daughters are in the Republic working hard to civilize the whole of this country, and that is not a small matter to be considered by ourselves . We will remain one , both Black and White , and whoever tries to break the links is working for the destruction of the people , for each link of the chain has its duty to perform in pursuance of the welfare of
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Those are not our laws . They operate in the Republic of South Africa . MR. JAFTA: They operate on our people who are in these Territories . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . The Whips must help me with those members please . The Whips must do their duty. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was saying those laws are for murderers and criminals.
45.
MR. JAFTA: I will go on to another point in connection with the Department of the Interior. We made a request from this House in 1964 asking that the money due to people suffering from miners ' phthisis be paid fully to them . We unanimously agreed in this House on that , and in 1965 we put a question to the Minister of the Interior as to how far this matter had been taken. He merely said they were still discussing the matter with the Republic . In 1966 we asked further about this matter, wishing to know how far the Government had gone with the request, and we were given the reply by the Minister of the Interior that an agreement had been reached to the effect that the money would be made payable to this Government. In 1967 , due to pressure by the people we reiterated the question and this year we took a particular case in the Qumbu area and asked that this particular individual who suffered from miners ' phthisis be paid fully the amount that was due to him . After we had agreed unanimously with the heads ofthe tribes in Qumbu area, we received word from the magistrate that the matter is handled only in Pretoria. Not believing what I was told by the magistrate , I took the trouble to come into Umtata to make further enquiries from the Department of the Interior . I was informed by that Department that money paid to these miners ' phthisis patients is only paid in Pretoria and We had agreed unnot by this Department. animously in this House , we were of one opinion in this House , we were all of one mind in this House , but we discovered that the Minister was all the time deceiving us . How can we have confidence then in a Government which says one thing today and another thing tomorrow ? (Interjections ) Among other things as well , this makes us say definitely that we have no confidence in this Government.
MR . JAFTA: Even if they are the work of the Republican Government , you should put a request to them that these laws should be removed and then you would find that you would lose all your power. Here is a fourth one remove also the power of deportation of the people by the chiefs , because they frighten the people against saying what they feel and what they want . Further , as the hon . the Chief Minister was travelling round the Transkei he introduced a spirit of tribalism among the chiefs and headmen in the Qumbu area , not knowing that we had come to a unanimous agreement . He told the Mpondomisi people and the Basuto and Hlubi people to listen only to their tribal heads and not to any of the others . He speaks in this strain to people who have lived side by side for many years past , and among whom there is understanding , and whose forefathers likewise lived in harmony together. Further, referring to Chief Isaac Matiwane , there is social understanding and harmony between him and the people , and this will not be put an end to by a casual visitor. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
You cant tell lies .
MR. JAFTA: If you deny this I can show you the paper in which it was reported. THE CHIEF MINISTER : are telling lies .
Just read it. You
MR . JAFTA: In this manner he was making every effort to try to influence the chiefs not to assist those of us who wanted the people to vote for us. There are many things I should like to mention under this head but I will proceed to other matters . Let me refer now to the Department of Justice . I would like to find out from this Department why we are burdened with a difficulty in having to get permits if we move from our own areas to areas outside the Republic . THE CHIEF MINISTER: of Justice ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Anyway, you now know the position. MR . GUZANA: Which is a lie to the previous statements . MR. JAFTA: Here is another matter - that the Transkei children are not yet permitted to go out to other countries to seek work. (Interjections) This difficulty has been made more and more difficult since the advent of this Government . This makes it clear to us that our children who were employed in satisfactory positions in Cape Town, Johannesburg and other work centres in the Republic will now be repatriated .
Which Department
We have friends among the MR . JAFTA: people outside the Republic but we are not permitted to visit them. I know that this is not among the duties of your Department....
THE CHIEF MINISTER : attack us ?
Then why do you
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who are you attacking ?
MR . JAFTA: .... but knowing that we have friends and relatives outside the Republic , why do you not request the Republican Government to allow us?
MR. JAFTA: Although we live in the reserves , we are fully aware of what is happening. All the decently dressed young men who were working in the factories are now being repatriated .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How can you attack us when you know it has nothing to do with us ? MR. JAFTA: Our friends live in Basutoland and other places , but we cannot get to these places. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : leading statement .
That is a mis-
MR. JAFTA : If you go through the villages in the reserves , all the decent homesteads which have been roofed with iron have been put up by these young men.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are not going to smell out these things . How can we know about them if you don't come to us?
46.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : misleading.
That statement is
It is a very painful situation .
dream has always been that the people should have more life and have it more abundantly , and that refers mainly to the people of the Transkei but also to all biological objects in the country , from the lowest plant to the most majestic forest tree . I wish to give a fuller reply to some of the matters raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he referred to some points , especially as the hon . the Chief Minister was answering. He spoke about the uncertain vote for the TNIP in Butterworth.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Even if you had the Bunga you would not be able to do anything about it.
MR . GUZANA : That is not true . I never mentioned that because there was no vote in Butterworth .
The Transkei is placed in MR. JAFTA: the same position as Sada in the Whittlesea district where the people will be carted off in loads to work centres and fed along the road if they happen to be hungry. We have no Sada but we are drifting in that direction. (Interjections) We are leading the Transkei to the same position as Sada. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I wish to let you know that the vote was most certain. The would-be candidate for the Democratic Party was never late . He was there when I arrived at about 10 a.m. by the Tanga bus and he remained in town until after the declaration of my seccessful election .
MR. JAFTA : It means finally that all the African work- seekers will have to get employment under contract for six or eight months . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why do you put the blame on us when you know. we have no jurisdiction ? MR. JAFTA:
OPPOSITION MEMBER :
Who elected you?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : At about 11.30 a.m. he came to me while I was waiting , as instructed by the returning officer , for the declaration, and he greeted me like an old friend but he asked three most silly questions , even for himself. The first was : " Have you registered , Mr. Bulube?" I said I had . "And have you completed everything ?" I said "Yes" . Then he took a few steps away, returned and asked: "By the way, what is the deadline time for the nomination?" I told him it was 12 o'clock noon. Then he walked away towards
MR . JAFTA: Further, locations such as Mdantsane and Mashu which are municipal locations will become mere reservoirs of employment. THE CHIEF MINISTER : the Republican Government.
You are attacking
MR. JAFTA: I am trying to tell you that the Transkei will finally be like Sada , Mdantsane and Mashu. In these terms I would like to put it very plainly that we have no confidence in this Government.
the hotel , only to arrive as we were called in by the returning officer to make the declaration . Some dispute went on between them , with the returning officer pointing out that it was already two minutes past 12 , but what he himself said , I could not make out, as he seemed to have his voice lowered . His main mistake and that of most of the Democratic Party members was that for four years after he had been elected to represent us in Butterworth, he never returned to the people to report in the several administrative areas . So when he tried after four years to call these meetings they were very poorly attended and the people asked him some questions about where he had been all these four years . When he failed to register his name , therefore , it was only because he was sure he would lose his deposit. Butterworth is solidly behind the TNIP and I can assure you that for the next 15 years, if God keeps me alive , there will be no Democratic Party member coming from that area , after which, of course , I will retire gracefully . (Laughter) There was another point that was not fully replied to by the hon. the Chief Minister - the question of consultation in rehabilitation. I should mention the steps that are taken are very exhaustive .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of this Chamber , before I enter into the fray do allow me to refer to a matter of great incidence , as well as being very timeous . This morning , before I came to this Chamber I received a telegram which says : " Ntibane Bulube , Department of Agriculture , Umtata - Happy birthday . May you see many more and your dream come true . " (Laughter) MR. K.M. GUZANA:
Was that from a lady?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It comes from a friend of mine , a fellow student from the days of 1918 to 1921 at Lovedale , now residing at Klerksdorp. MR . GUZANA: Who is she? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Kefentse if you want to know. And just now another one from another lady: (Laughter) "Wishing you a happy birthday , Daddy, From Francina. " These people remind me that today is my 67th birthday . MR. GUZANA:
But even before you take MR. GUZANA : those steps you declare an area . That is what you do.
And senile decay has set in.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
My 47 .
Noאי
just keep your mouth closed. tell you what we do.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Thank you very much. (Interjections)
I am going to
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on.
MR. GUZANA: I know what you do. According to the Act you have the power to consult before you declare an area.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I was just listening to some barking from the other side . (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I know that.
THE CHAIRMAN: speaker continue .
MR. GUZANA : You don't do it.
Order, please .
Let the
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The next matter refers to the literature requested from the XDC and why they don't give credit to the people . This literature has been out and I think the XDC would be glad to help those who would like to get it. We as a Government have been in discussion with them over the question of credit.
An THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : extension officer goes round to ascertain the wishes of the people in this regard . If those people express their wish through the proper headman's meeting for rehabilitation.... That is not what happens. MR. GUZANA : You are talking through your hat.
MR. GUZANA : Where do we get it?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ...they then report to the senior agricultural officer who himself goes to make sure that the information is as given. He then reports to head office and the Secretary of the department sends all that information to the magistrate so that he , too, should go out to the same administrative area and ascertain the conditions.
Where is the literature ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : can get it from the XDC offices .
You
MR. GUZANA : They offered it to us . Why wasn't it sent? (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR . GUZANA: It is not so. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : come to my office and I will show you.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The main reason they are not issuing credit is because they do not intend keeping these shops for any length of time and therefore they do not wish to pass them over to the Transkei citizens in great debt. M. R. Madikizela , in his rambling way, tried to support the motion of no confidence and he referred to measures taken by the Government to meet the drought situation. These have been explained , as another member of the Democratic Party did say, by the Cabinet in all the districts , and if he wishes to get any more information he can approach any member of the Government instead of wasting the time of this Chamber.
You
MR. GUZANA: I don't want to come to your office . I want to see it among the people. That is where it happens . You write these things down and don't do them . THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The magistrate sends the report back to head office again and then all that information is passed over to the Minister who considers everything that has been reported , both the votes for as well as any against, as well as remarks on both sides . Let us say then he has satisfied himself that everything is going on for rehabilitation. He signs the documents and these are returned to the Secretary for the planning committee now to go out and work together with the headman and his councillors. After such consultation , which is exhaustive , again the people indicate their vote at the headman's place , matters are returned again with the plan now having been drawn up by the planning committee. Again they are sent to the magistrate to consult the people as well as the tribal authority , and if everything is still going by a high majority for rehabilitation these are returned finally to the Minister to give the green light to the people to carry on with the scheme . Ifthere is anything that can be suggested to improve on that type of consultation, this Government would be very glad to know about it.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA:
I approached you.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There was mention of the 25 cents paid for relief work , a matter which the Government has considered very closely and, being a responsible Government and with the drought so widespread this year and therefore more people to get relief it was felt it would not be wise without adequate funds to increase the sum .
MR . GUZANA : So that the greater number should be given a lower amount so that more continue to starve in spite of what you are giving 1- is that your reasoning? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In your mind. MR . GUZANA :
That is what you say.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The hon. Chief S.S. Majeke mentioned a certain unit working on dams in Mahlungulu area which was
MR. GUZANA: The advice is that you should do what you say you are doing. That is our advice .
48.
moved when it had not completed the work to go and work in another area where there was more water, suggesting it was because the chief of that area happened to be a member of this party on the Government side . This being a very serious allegation I took the chance at tea-time and at dispersal time to endeavour to find out the truth about it. This morning too the Secretary of the Department who promised to 'phone to the agricultural officers concerned could only send me a note to say these officers are out and he cannot get any information. (Laughter) So at this stage we cannot give you anything concrete about it but we believe that the officers there are responsible people and would not move machinery at great cost away from where it has still to be returned to work. Willowvale - Mr. M. Dumalisile stated that this Government stopped the fibre factory in Butterworth in favour of the beer brewery because the water supply had become inadequate . He went further to say that instead of continuing with the brewery the water should have been used for irrigating the land . Well , hon. members , you can gauge in your own minds the quantities of water required for each of those operations .
Transkeian areas had to pay for their stock to this Government 50 cents per month per beast. MR. GUZANA: How much was gained by this Government for that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You can put your question on paper . MR. GUZANA : No, I am not going to do that in a no- confidence debate . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If the people are ready to pay the 50 cents per month we shall be only too glad to help them communicate with the people in Maclear . MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have wasted much time listening to a speech by an hon. member from Butterwoth whilst we knew at the same time that he was not elected by that area . (Laughter) He was told by the people at Butterworth at a meeting on the 25th January this year that they did not want to hear anything from him as they had not elected him . I shall therefore not waste time referring to matters that are not of much importance to the House . Even Tsafendas went to make jokes in a House of Assembly with the resulting evil that followed . To show the lack of confidence of the people in this Government, I shall mention the request that was first put forward in this House in 1963 when the hon. the Chief Minister asked the people to elect him as he would form a battalion for the Transkei. (Laughter ) I am sorry he is leaving the Chamber because I would like to ask him how far he has got with that battalion of his. I often feel jealous as I see the European youths march up and down the street here , carrying rifles . I often wish our young men could do likewise but I know that our boys would be encouraged to go and make rope , ( Laughter) the rope which will be used to tie down these Ministers . When Dr. Verwoerd , who was responsible for the inauguration of this policy of separate development , was asked by the Europeans whether he was not giving the Bantu powers which would enable them to rule the country, he replied : " Have no fear because I am tying them down hand and foot. " It is for that reason therefore that we are tied down here and are fighting amongst ourselves , because the hon. the Chief Minister and his followers have accepted this separate development policy. What the African people require in this country is more land and at this point the land is not equitably distributed among the races . According to this system we only enjoy one - quarter of the land among the Africans and the Europeans have three- quarters of the land . My fear is that your descendants will look with scorn at your graves when you are dead . (Interjections) I would like briefly to analyse the reasons why we maintain we have no confidence in this Government. This idea of rehabilitation came from the White people who encouraged us to rehabilitate our small portion of land while he enjoyed the greater portion.
MR. GUZANA : Two and a quarter million gallons per day for the brewery. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : for the factory?
And
MR. GUZANA : You supply that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I said you can gauge in your own minds . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : And you will realise that however much it may be for the brewery the amount required for the fibre factory is excessively large. When you susMR. J.M. DUMALISILE : pended that factory did those people employed there continue to get their wages? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Why should they? They were not working. There was another romantic question raised by the hon, member for Nqamakwe when he asked why cattle should be removed from a rehabilitated drought- stricken area to a non- rehabilitated and non-drought- stricken area. Again the reply is excessively obvious so that I need not waste your time over that matter. The drought question was also mentioned by another hon. member with reference to grazing in Lusikisiki instead of Maclear. The point is this : In the first place Maclear is not our area yet.... MR. GUZANA: And it will never be. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ...while Lusikisiki happens to be part of the Transkei and so we thought, as we have always done , that we should first try to help ourselves.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: in favour of rehabilitation ?
Secondly , it should be realised that the European farmers who sent their stock to graze in those
49 .
Are you
Write down you question , MR. MAJIJA: please. (Laughter) Seeing you have accepted the policy of separate development I would like to refer to a case of a sick child in the Engcobo district. The medical officer at Engcobo advised that the child should be taken to Cape Town to be attended to by specialists . The magistrate suggested that a letter be written to the employer of the father of the sick child to find out whether he was agreeable that the mother take the child to the father. The employer agreed to the request and as a result of influx control the doctor at Engcobo was asked to write to the medical officer in Cape Town to find out whether the child would be accepted in Cape Town. The doctor in Engcobo said he did not know how the doctor in Cape Town could ever state whether he could cure the patient unless he personally examined the child. Up to this day the child is still at Engcobo and the disease is getting on apace and the doctor says the child has now reached the stage where it cannot be cured at all. This is an instance to prove that the laws and regulations passed in the Republic suppress the African. I shall not refer to a matter that was mentioned , that you on that side do not want multi- racialism . You go further to say that the European says he does not want it, but after sunset the Europeans approve of multi - racialism . You approve of multi- racialism yourselves that of your Government and the White people. The transfer of teachers has been mentioned in this debate . A teacher teaching in a school here is told to transfer immediately to a certain school. I have an instance of a departmental education officer arriving at a school in which a lady teacher was employed, holding her by the hand and telling her : "You, girl, go over immediately to that school . " Before she had collected her books and belongings he drove her out of the door and told her to go immediately. (Laughter) This lady teacher had to walk four miles to the new post.
asked the people whether they were dipping because they approved of the process , and the hon. Mr. Raziya was present when the people asked whether it was true they had stopped dipping. We told them it was the law and they must continue to dip . I will not say much more, but we have no confidence in this Government. The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. T.E. ka TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am going to confine my address in support of the Government side on the insincerity of that side across the floor. I want to show first and foremost their sense of ingratitude , lack of appreciation for what the Government has done for the people of South Africa , in particular the Transkei . We have amongst them members who were the real architects of this very policy of separate development in the Transkei , but just overnight they somersaulted because of insincerity. The people of South Africa , the Black masses , have always clamoured for their political rights , franchise and progress and because of the advent of separate development, which is the only policy to solve the racial problem of South Africa , the Transkei is a pattern to the whole world . I am surprised to find some political upstarts · people who have just come to the forefront politically yesterday - who have come about with a policy of multi- racialism in the Transkei. (Interjections) If these people were sincere in reality there should never have been an opposition on a platform of multi- racialism . I just respect the few chiefs that side , otherwise I would be calling those men political imbeciles . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where is the official now?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The truth of the whole matter is that these are cowards. They are people who like to play to the gallery cheap publicity. If they wanted to be an Opposition to the Government why couldn't they have started on an opposition side within the framework of separate development? We have people who are actually getting the fruits ofwhat There is an this Government has achieved . hon. member who talks of going to Cape Town. What a daydreamer ! He forgets that the European people , be they in the United Party, be
MR. MAJIJA : Think of a lady walking that distance to a new school , and the teacher who was in the school to which she was going had not been told of her coming ! How can we have confidence in such people ? I shall not make reference to an instance of married women teachers who were told to stop teaching on the 6th of the month and were not paid for the rest of the month . (Interjections ) I am sorry the hon. the Chief Minister is out because I would like to mention what he said at the meetings in Engcobo area. This is what he said : " If you support my party I shall take it upon myself to stop all this fencing and rehabilitation so that the Bantu-owned stock can graze in the areas owned by the White people . ' That such a statement should have come from an important member of the Transkei Government frightened us , and it is similar to what the hon. the Chief Minister is reported to have said in Pondoland. It is a pity that the Security Branch.has not travelled about to listen to what they say. Some of them would have been locked up already. (Laughter) At the time when the dipping of cattle was still in operation one of the Ministers
they in the Nationalist Party, they are of one opinion that the African people will go to Cape Town over their dead bodies . We do not care for a multi- racialistic parliament. They know very well that they are only playing at delaying tactics . We are concerned with the awakening of African nationalism in the Transkei and with the emergence of a leader like the hon. the Chief Minister of this Government side. The African people , if they had any brains at all , would have appreciated what kind of a Moses the Transkei has had. We on this side of the House are opposed completely to a multi- racial society . We are not prepared to sink our 50 .
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA : He has given us an assessment of our population in 18 years ' time . He has given us some simple arithmetical programme to show that in 18 years ' time the population of the Transkei will have grown to What an five times the present population. irresponsible utterance from a supposed leader of a party! Just last year he was completely opposed to the Transkei Government acquiring more land . Couldn't he think that in 18 years' time the population would have grown to five times the present one so that there should have been provision made for the people for settlement? When this honourable son wanted more land " in places like Maclear and others , you people objected to that. When a king walks up He never looks up . he always faces down. (Interjections ) The hon. member who assaulted you yesterday didn't sufficiently chastise you. I wish he would continue . ( Laughter) Gentlemen, let us be honest. The policy is that of separate development. One of the people who has been a key member - the cornerstone of this policy of separate development is the hon . member for Qumbu . He has admitted that during the old Bunga days there never was so much progress achieved. In fact, many of them have admitted it. Now I have said I want to expose your in-
national identity at any cost. They talk of integration. What will integration finally lead to? We are not prepared to bastardize this. pure race of the Africans . ( Interjections ) Are you going to encourage it further? Apart from the Opposition I have not known a single one in the political struggle of the African people in South Africa to do that. It is common cause that of course Africa rains mushrooms in this country. If you were sincere I would base my whole argument on your insincerity of purpose . OPPOSITION MEMBER :
Are you sincere ?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I am sincere . Since I took part in politics in this country my policy has been that of consistency . Ifyou were sincere in your policy of multi- racialism , where were you in 1955? I can tell you what happened in 1955. The Congress Alliance in South Africa, which was a multi- racial organisation, staged a congress of the people where everybody was invited. I was there at Kliptown - where were you? The only difference was that that congress was communistically inspired and instigated the Communists who are your fellow-travellers . They are trying to use you to cause confusion among the African people who should be rejoicing in their franchise rights . (Interjections)
sincerity of purpose . If this government of the Transkei was a clean bucket of water and because of the ideology of separate development it is like somebody who puts just a drop of poison in this water. A sane man would never go and drink of that water. Why should you receive this money from this Government, the very Government you are insulting? (Interjections) What do you want? Your leader spoke of an increase in the population in 18 years ' time. We wanted Maclear and you were opposed to it, and we want even more land for your sons . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA : The African people are not going to be bluffed by you. You are not known in the political arena. To prove it , you have only come to this House since 1963. Leaders have come and leaders have gone . The contemporaries of the present Chief Minister of the Transkei were trying to get the rights of the African people , but it was on a wrong platform . I am going to quote one man who was regarded as one of the leaders of the African National He is a man referred to as being Congress . That was Sisulu. He one of those in Rivonia. had better brains than you . Immediately Sisulu got to know that steps were being taken by the leaders of the Transkei and that the TTA was on a scheme of accepting self-government for the Transkei , at the time he made the statement I am going to make . He was not yet convicted to Robben Island. The case at Rivonia had not yet started but Sisulu said : " Chief Matanzima and all the chiefs of the Transkei are correct. No people would ever reject self-government . (Interjections ) It does not matter how it comes about. " (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: We are still going to achieve what we want. ( Interjections ) Yes , we will never get it because you are supporting the Whites who are opposing it.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : How did you escape from Robben Island?
Because of my MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: brains . Now I want further to show your insincerity of purpose . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition in Mqanduli promised the electorate there that he would fight against the rehabilitation scheme and in this very House last week he somersaulted and he is now speaking in favour of rehabilitation measures . I will challenge him and challenge the hon. member from Qumbu - let us go to the people of Qumbu and I will give you first chance to address them . (Interjections ) I am not afraid of being assaulted . Summon a meeting at your location, tell me the date and the time and let me address those people . (Interjections ) Why can't this hon. member from Mqanduli go and tell the people who voted for him that he has somersaulted and is now in favour of rehabilitation measures ? (Interjections) What is the development in connection with title deeds ?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: If the traditional leaders of this country have been the instruments of bringing about the franchise , why can't you say: "Hurrah, well done , good boys . " One hon. member said "Not Sisulu" . I was with .Sisulu on the national executive and we differed on the question of chieftainship and representation. I am talking as an experienced man. Now let me come back to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. 51 .
I smashed him to smithereens ; I to pulp. At Ndabakazi I reminded him reduced the Fingoes that if they were sincere they must obey the Government. I was given an ovation at Ndabakazi. You were not there and the people of Ndabakazi have accepted the Transkei GovernHe was there . ment policy. (Interjections) In fact he is a chief who is just hanging in space . The African voters in Butterworth are following the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , and let me warn the chiefs who try to leave the masses. behind and start running to a mountain-top to say that people must follow them , the people are prepared to follow a government that sees to the interests of the people . (Interjections ) We don't want any chief against whom the people rebel. I am sorry some ofthe chiefs are leaving their people . (Interjections) Let us be sincere ; let us be honest. The only policy that is acceptable to the African masses is that of separate development . jections)
A person who aims to be a representative of the people and who has title deeds to his own property and thinks they should have title deeds wherever they may be - how can he not want people to get title deeds in the rest of the Transkei? If we are not clamouring for our own interests , let us clamour for the interests of everybody. Some of you mentioned influx control regulations . The hon. member for Engcobo tells of a child who is very ill and the parents cannot get permits to go to Cape Town. What a lie ! If you studied the Consolidated Urban Areas Act of 1945 you will find very clearly that anybody can visit any town in South Africa as long as within 72 hours he shall have consulted the authorities . The snag is that you are law-breakers. Anybody , especially in a case of illness , can go to the station, buy a ticket, rush to see a doctor and go to any responsible location superintendent to tell him you have just arrived with a sick child and no-one will say anything. The trouble is you want to tell the people untruths all the time , instead of telling them what the truth is . (Interjections ) Now, to come back to a remark made by your leader . He says in criticizing the ruling party that two of the Ministers have been axed by the Government. He forgets one thing - that the members of the Cabinet in this House are elected by all the members of this House . Instead of that, he proposes the name of Mr. Vika. If you wanted them , why didn't you propose their names?
MR. GUZANA: want them .
MR . B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the leader of this side of the House to say that the governing party under the leadership of Chief Matanzima has not the confidence of the African people. There is something that worries the people of the Transkei - the results of the recent election throughout the Transkei . On election day I met the hon. the Chief Minister at the office and he asked me what the polling was like in this area. I estimated it was in the vicinity of
It was because you didn't
40 to 50% and he agreed it might be so , and he said he feared it was a low poll. I was greatly surprised, however , when the results came out to find that the polling was about 80%. That was what happened in Umtata area . This made me afraid , but when he spoke in this House I discovered the truth. The Chief Minister made a mistake when he said that the Opposition use the reference books of deceased people , and it is quite plain that they had acted in that manner themselves . That is where we , the Opposition, suffer. The reference books of the deceased are usually retained in the office by the Transkei Government. You know that the members of the party that went round before the general election asking for the reference books of people was the party of the Chief Minister . You know the members of the party who took the numbers of people's reference books. It is the party of the Chief Minister . It is quite clear therefore that the high polling for election day was due to papers that were recorded of deceased people. Someone asks me if I have no faith in the EuroIt is very peans working in the Transkei ? difficult to have confidence in them when the Republican Government showed....
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: It is because you are insincere . Let us go to Mqanduli , summon a meeting, because you haven't summoned a single meeting, and we shall be the two speakers . I will give you the first chance and my platform will be African nationalism and yours will be multi-racialism . I am sure I would get their support. (Interjections) The African people have no time for multi- racialism . The African people respect their chiefs . (Interjections ) I am going to prove it to you. I will quote from the Daily Disgrace when it was giving the post mortem after the last general election. They said the Transkei people paid strict allegiance to their chiefs . It quoted the Dalindyebo region and the Gcaleka region and it said it was quite obvious that they respected their chiefs . What is going to happen to them in Mqanduli now, because the chief of the Amaqwati is on our side ? If that paper is correct and the people pay allegiance to their chiefs then the people must support their chiefs . There is a statement made by the hon. member for Engcobo and he told these people an untruth. On the 25th January there was a meeting of Fingoes at Ndabakazi . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture invited me to go and address that meeting. Where were you? (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Say nothing about the European officials , please . They cannot speak for themselves .
MR, M VYANI :
I withdraw , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I wish you would make it clear to the hon. members to read their rules . They cannot attack the White officials who cannot reply.
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I went to address Your a meeting of Fingoes at Butterworth, supposed leader who has been axed because he did not know that he could not be nominated without producing his reference book.... (Inter-
MR. M VYANI : Mr. Chairman , we are advised
52.
MR. MNYANI: They are politicians. ( Interjections ) It is very clear from their expressions that no matter what we had done we would not come out victorious in this last general election. There is a certain European here who, on a certain day when the hon. the Chief Minister was going to give his address , walked out of here and I saw him personally.
MR. MNYANI : I would like the hon . the Chief Minister to be a little more patient if I refer to his European colleagues . (Laughter) I realise that there are members among the Government benches who realise that he will soon lose the portfolio he is holding . When the hon. the Minister of Roads was addressing this House and saying that we like to shelter ourselves in the shadow of other people , I do not think I am mistaken but she kept eyeing the seat of the hon. the Chief Minister because she knows that while he is in that position he is leaning on the shoulder of his father. He constantly keeps on leaning on politicians from other places , like Mr. kaTshunungwa. At the time when Nkrumah was in power he said he was going to have one party in his country and when Carmichael of Black Power in America was in power the hon. Minister leaned on him so that when he returned from his goodwil tour he was greeted with closed fists at the Jubilee Hall here in Umtata and shouts of "Black power " .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : lies.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : want White power?
not to attack the European officials . I withdraw, but I was taken aback by the rejoicing of the Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER : them rejoice?
Where did you see
MR. MNYANI: It was clear in their expressions. THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is a reflection again on the Ministers ofthe Republican Government.
You are telling
MR. MNYANI : And there is another European who said that there were some power dreamers here who were trying to oust the Matanzima brothers but they would not be successful .
Do you
MR. MNYANI : Further , during Christmas , 1966, he rushed up to Chief Seretse Khama and he is always trying to get under the shadow of other people .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Name him.
THE CHAIRMAN : Discuss the motion , please , hon. member.
MR. MNYANI : I cannot name him. I must have respect. (Interjections )
MR. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman , I think everybody is clear that he did not make any reference to the independence of the Transkei while he was addressing us. I will tell you when independence will be achieved in the Transkei . We will never have independence within the next 25 years . I say this because you are trying to court the friendship of Europeans whom you invite to open up industries . Until the time is up for those Europeans who will open up industries in the Transkei you wil not attain independence because you are driving away the Europeans from this country and no Europeans who are traders will remain with you in the Transkei . ( Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MNYANI : Even the Europeans do not have a complex nearly as expensive as the one you have. (Laughter) This Government cannot have the confidence of anybody. I was taken aback and could not believe that it was the hon. the Chief Minister who spoke in this debate of no confidence . (Interjections) I thought he was, according to his practice , going to refute the statements he made when he was on his goodwill tour, when he agreed to take over to himself the policy of multi- racialism and set us aside . I thought the people did not speak well of him when he said that whenever people approved of a policy he jumped in and took it over. I have discovered that that is the truth about him . (Laughter) He realises that the people on his side are the Nationalists , because they also refer to the people of these areas as belonging to different tribal groups . The Europeans on your side , the Afrikaners , have a paper here called "Bantu " published in America and in Europe in which they state that there is no discrimination in this country and they express the idea that this country is inhabited by people of different races. He realised that even his
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. MNYANI : Before the Transkei can be given full independence you will have to nationalise these industries as did Nasser in Egypt. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I make it clear to the House in answer to the question that is asked as to how we will get to Cape Town, we will get to Cape Town even if we walk over the dead bodies. Strydom is dead , Dr. Verwoerd is dead. Even if someone else dies , although we will not be responsible for his death, we will walk over their bodies , but I must say there is something achieved by this side of the House which preaches multi - racialism . The European people have been converted. The proof of the multi-racial policy of this side is the outwardlooking policy of the Prime Minister of the Republic . The Coloured people who come from outside this country, the Maoris from New Zealand , South Africa wanted to send a team to the Olympic Games of the different multi-
European supporters had now left criticizing us as liberals because of the struggle between the "verligtes " and "verkramptes " , and Mr. Vorster is referred to as a liberal and fellow-traveller . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , I would like to draw the attention of the hon. member to rule 43 (2) . He mentioned the name of the Prime Minister in this House and it is against the rules .
53.
We take credit racial people of the world. to ourselves that we have been responsible in part for that policy. (Interjections )
has failed to prove that the Government does not enjoy the confidence of the people until this present moment when member Sophonia is on his feet to speak to this House . (Laughter) While we are pursuing the policy of separate development within the ambit of the Government of the Republic of South Africa , we are allowed a few departments headed by a minister over each one to which the Transkei people all over South Africa refer matters , especially to the Department of the Interior , the Department of Roads, the Department of Education and other departments so well known to you. It is very gratifying to me that as I speak in this House people make remarks that I am speaking about the Mau-mau. Perhaps the person who says this ought to point to himself as a Mau-mau. I come from the Qumbu district where I am the only Basuto among the Xhosa- speaking people and the Xhosa- speaking chiefs . In that region there is not a single area that is not rehabilitated. If there is any member here from Qumbu who opposes rehabilitation I can say that member is a trouble-maker and should not be inthis House. Some people accepted rehabilitation in days gone by. It is for that reason that I feel the Qumbu area should be left alone and we should discuss those areas which have not accepted rehabilitation. One speaker stated that they wanted separate development according to the colour of the people. Quite often within this Assembly reference has been made about Botswana , Swaziland and Lesotho , countries which enjoy full independence in South Africa.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MNYANI : Now, to come to another point the facts of this drought have proved without doubt that the Transkei cannot be independent yet and among the reasons why we maintain the Government does not enjoy the confidence of the people is because they have failed to prepare for such situations. The Government has failed to free the African people from starvation. One European whom I respect (I will not mention his name) , speaking at a very big meeting, said that the African people in this country are still very poor and one is surprised to find the hon. the Chief Minister in giving this House his policy speech on finance , saying he will follow the steps of the Republican Government in stopping inflation within the Transkei . He explained inflation as the pouring in of excess money which would be used to buy only a few articles. Now that he is standing in support of Dr. Diederichs ' statement, can he tell us when the Black man ever had excess money seeing that we wear patched jackets and military coats. Is it because we cannot buy new articles in the shops ? Are they finished? No, it is not because of that. The truth is we have no money and, further , depression is always hanging over us. The Transkei Government sent the Ministers to report to the people that efforts were being made to combat starvation. In this area the hon. the Minister of Education addressed the people and he made promises that the cost of maize would be reduced and he promised the people they would grow winter crops . (Interjections) He said the people would be provided with tractors . We have this drought now and seeing that he invited us to visit the offices of the Ministers I visited them and asked when these tractors would be available seeing that the rain has come.
MR. GUZANA: your geography.
You had better go and learn
CHIEF MOSHESH : These countries attained this full independence when both Black and White each sat on his own chair. There was no quarrel among these different people and no-one wished anyone to leave his seat. I say this with certainty because there are members who have not visited these countries that are enjoying full independence. It is not true that this Government refuses to grant passports to people who wish to visit these countries . I am a resident of the Transkei and I visited these countries as anyone can visit them if they so wish. Let us not say things that are not truthful when we argue in this House . One other matter was referred to in connection with the tractors that left off work in Mahlungulu location in Qumbu district and went to Sophonia's location. They were going there to carry out work just as they do in other parts , but it was clear that the work in Sophonia's area was very urgent. (Interjections) I come from Sophonia's area and you come from Nqayi. Reference was made to the late Dr. Verwoerd , the originator of this separate development policy, and all the others are supporters of the policy that he propounded. I was present in this House , I had left school at the time. (Interjections) Yes , I attended night school. Dr. Verwoerd likened the Transkei Government to a tree. At the time he was Minister of Bantu Affairs. He spoke from the position where the Chairman is sitting now. When we were granted this Government that we have , not the egg that was laid by a cock because what we have in our hands is not what is under the cock, we were
CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I also being an honourable member , stand here in support of the motion that the Government enjoys the full confidence of the Transkei people . This is the motionwe have often discussed in the last five years before getting to the deliberations of our parliament. This is a pointer that each party within this House must hold its own. It is for that reason that I maintain that all the members of the Opposition are my friends when we are outside this hall, but inside this hall they are my bitterest enemies . They are here as representatives of the people but our observation disproves that contention because the people have elected members to represent them within this House namely, the Transkei Government. This Government which the people have chosen for themselves follows the policy of separate development and this is a government which has carried out its duties voluntarily and with good understanding. It was by the pursuance of that policy that our political rights for the Transkei people which we had lost have been regained . Since this Government came into being we have always had in our midst the Opposition , an Opposition which
54.
MR . T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: That's right . come to this side .
given a true government, and as we are running this Government we are expecting further privileges until we attain full independence . If it is the Opposition that enables the Transkei to attain full independence then it is all right, but what we experience is that the people think highly of, and have full confidence in, the Government of the Transkei under the leadership of Chief K.D. Matanzima . In these words , therefore , I say it is through the efforts of this Government only that we can acquire full independence like the other nations of South Africa. One speaker, a very tall member behind whom I am now standing, has just said we will reap full independence only after 25 years. Ithink he makes reference to his party, if at any time it will take the leadership of this government . He reminds me of what was said by one speaker in this House when he said that the chief who came from East London said the Transkei would only achieve independence in 25 years . Hon. members, what we are discussing now is the motion of no confidence . I do not want to confuse you any further because what we are experiencing now is very clear and needs no explanation.
MR. MNYILA: ...because during the election several chiefs went round the different electoral areas and forgot their own laws and traditions . Just before the recent elections when we reached our areas we were informed by the magistrate that the chief secretary of the Department of the Chief Minister had sent out this message. There were three sub- clauses in this message and the second of the three clauses was that no chief and no headman may interfere with the right of the people to elect as they wished , and it went further to say: "As you are under me as your chief, I want you to support So-and- so who belongs to my party" . The chiefs must not force or press the people to do according to their own wishes. All that was not approved of by the servants of this Government, to such an extent that even chiefs and headmen were asked to go into these areas to tell the people to support certain candidates , and in this act they forgot and put aside altogether the instructions that came from the Secretary of the Department of the Chief Minister. (Interjections ) That alone has resulted in the introduction of unfairness by the Government and that has brought upon this Government the disrespect of the people. This Government is engaged in sinister methods . When they made up their constitution they regarded it as a correct constitution, whereas it is a wrong constitution. The electorate is composed of ignorant , uneducated people who cannot read, who cannot write - uncivilized people of Qamata area, for example . ( Laughter) They are told to vote for a particular candidate . The European people from whom we have inherited this voting regard the franchise as much their right as they regard their own wives . (Laughter) May I now tell my chiefs this , if I have hurt the feelings of my chief by my remarks in this House , I want him to understand I ask for pardon. I do not mean to insult them but I wish to put right that which is wrong, because I am making an effort to put this whole matter right. To go further, here is a matter which I think will make all the people have no confidence in the Transkei Government. We have informed the electorate that rehabilitation is not compulsory. That statement was endorsed by the hon. the Chief Minister at the opening of this Assembly when he said that rehabilitation was not compulsory, but let me put it to you that rehabilitation is being forced upon the people in a very clever and civilized manner by the officials of the Government. In the areas which have not accepted rehabilitation the people are not given home sites . They are first asked to accept rehabilitation, but they are told to rehabilitate according to their wishes . (Interjections) I will not pay attention to remarks by people because I realise that these uncalled-for Hey, remarks come from chiefs shouting: If I were a chief I would say "Keep you ! quiet" , because I am just like you are . A remark comes from an hon. member asking when I shall be a chief. I am not keen to be a chief in this Assembly. I want to be a chief according to the custom of the people where I to can say a member " Be silent " and my word is respected. Let us go forward , for
MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am very sorry that I do not see the hon. the Chief Minister in his seat because I was going to concentrate on him . "Iknow further that on an occasion such as this when you may not be directing your remarks to the rightful person they get him second-hand not as you would like to address them to him directly. I am very happy to see the hon. the Chief Minister enter now. I want to associate myself with the motion that the Government does not enjoy the confidence of the people. I also maintain that the people have no confidence in this Government. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member. May I ask the hon. the Chief Minister to take his place of honour.
MR. MNYILA: The cure is the truth. There is nobody who is acquainted with the fact that if there is disease in a person it must be cured. Let us therefore , put right this danger, as it may be difficult for us to cure it later. We Xhosa people have great respect, especially , towards our chiefs. It is a disgrace for an ordinary member to contradict his chief. However, this parliament has compelled us to point out errors and to contradict our own chiefs , which is not our usual custom and practice . We regard our chiefs as our fathers and today we stand in opposition to those faterss in different undertakings because the people have asked us to say one thing •despite what the chief may say to the contrary. I have listened carefully to the deliberations in this Assembly since its inception and I find that people have lost respect one for the other. How can we bring this to an end? (Interjections) We will put it right by first putting into order the basis of this parliament - namely, that everybody who comes to this Assembly should come by election and not just roll into this House , because the elected members will constantly say: Whyhave you come into this House? Who elected you tothis House? I have found that of a truth the chiefs are the leaders of their people . 55.
and the Africans in Africa. do that?
we have a long road before us and I have quite a number of points I wish to put forward. I would like you to be very attentive and patient because I shall not repeat what I have already said. I will not only say that which I have not yet mentioned. We members of the Assembly are frightened when we realise that a chief stands and is in a temper, especially when he turns the pages of the book of regulations . We are never sure what he is going to say thereafter but we would like the chiefs to note this. The Chief Minister , your Prime Minister, is the cornerstone of parliament. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: (Inaudible interjection) THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, I am afraid I will have to ask you to go outside if you don't stop these interjections .
MR. MNYILA: You will never get the independence you want because the Europeans will never leave the cities they have now. Why do you criticize me directly now, being our chief? If the Government of the Republic did not vote as you desire these two things Parliament and money - you would neither of you be here today if you were not given that money. (Laughter)
·
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. MNYILA: The hon. Minister remarks that I also would not be here. I used to travel all the way from Tsomo through the Bashee right to Umtata and I received a miserable stipend. Here is a strage thing - let us not forget this question of money. If the Europeans behind you were to leave their seats I am sure you will not remain where you are now. (Interjections)
MR. MNYILA: The cornerstone or the pillar that supports any home is usually spoken to in a critical manner and all the evils of that family are thrown upon that pillar , and such pillar must be very patient. A pillar and a cornerstone must not advise the people not to criticize . At one time the Prime Minister of the Republic , the late General Hertzog , suffered indignity at the hands of school children who threw rotten eggs at him because he was bent on carrying out that which he wanted to carry out. Similarly, General Smuts was spoken to critically and in unpleasant terms by all the people because he was the pillar and cornerstone of the Union of South Africa . He did not take any notice of such criticism . Why is it that our pillar there , the hon. the Chief Minister , at the slightest provocation immediately picks up this book and turns the pages , and before you realise what you have done you find you are already trembling with fear as you do not know what step he will take thereafter. (Laughter) We would not like to be driven out of this House because we represent the views of the people and when you rise to say something you are . told " Outside , outside " . (Laughter) This is not a good thing. Let me now refer to the strain between the different policies . The hon. the Minister of Education says I have no policy. I will give him the policy. Be happy to sit in front of the Europeans who are behind you, which is indicative that it is necessary for the Whites to work in harmony with the Africans . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: your policy?
Was he a fool to
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . (To Chief Makosonke Sigcau) Hon. member you must now leave the Chamber. Chief Makosonke Sigcau left the House . MR. MNYILA : May I appeal to the House that we continue quietly again . I would like to place this before you: This matter does not require the Government of Matanzima nor the government of Poto nor the government of Guzana . It merely requires us to think collectively on this issue . There is a matter that has been referred to in this House · namely, Jabulani. According to our Xhosa custom we have never shared our beer - drinking with the youth. The young people have their own court next to the cattle kraal and the women go and sit beside a heap of firewood and the men share their beer amongst themselves alone and enjoy the drinking of it, and they share their beer with the womenfolk who are outside the hut where the men are and that is a very orderly custom . The last bit of beer that is in the pot is given to the elderly men of the kraal . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, could the Chair appeal to the member to speak a little lounder because at the moment it is only the English version of his address that is audible .
Is that
THE CHAIRMAN : member.
MR. MNYILA: At the very time when you are advocating separate development, that is when the White officials are behind you. I would like you to note this and learn it. The Almighty was not a fool to send the European to this country to teach us and to bring us the privileges that we enjoy.
Please speak out , hon.
MR. MNYILA: You shout and make a noise in this House and I haven't a very loud voice. If you would ask your people to be a little quieter all would be well . I would like to say that today we have Jabulani. In these Jabulani halls youngsters not even 18 years of age go and drink this beer, and the women likewise , and young girls . This is not according to the custom of the Xhosa people. This is according to the Xhosa development. (Laughter) We should not go hand in hand with such a practice . There is not even a way of telling people of a certain age not to go into these halls to drink . This Jabulani is sold to young and old , to any and every one
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Was he a fool when he separated us into our separate countries? MR. MNYILA : If you want separation as you seem to do now... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You have the Indians in India, the English in England 56.
who has the money on hand . Even if anyone has beer that is sold among us Bantu people , you do not see the young people mixing with the elderly members of the tribe . I am sure you know this because you are not babies . In a beer-drink the elderly men and their womenfolk drink and then they being to speak different languages and then you have danger . Do you want your young people and womenfolk to go and listen to such talk? I would like you members in the front bench to think of something else .
as we know it is the government of the people for the people by the people. OPPOSITION MEMBER : All races included . MR. MABANDLA : It has no colour bar and it is open to all who believe in it , but we have that when we are in power. Let me ask you if MR. K.M. GUZANA : "apartheid" allows everybody to govern irrespective of colour .
The debate was adjourned. MR. MABANDLA : Well , the people are elected to governing bodies through competitive elections and that does not obtain with your policy at the present moment.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 30th April , 1969. WEDNESDAY , 30th APRIL , 1969
MR. GUZANA: You are therefore conceding that you are not aiming at democracy at all in your policy?
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
MR. MABANDLA : Well , the policy....
NO CONFIDENCE
MR. GUZANA : You said everybody shares in " apartheid" , irrespective of colour .
The debate was resumed. MR. MABANDLA : But in their own groups . We on this side are looking forward to the time when the Transkei will obtain its self- determination, not a time when people will be dictated to. As I have told you, since the days of the colonial government we have been just common subjects without any status at all .
MR. Z.M. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to speak in support of the amendment that this House has confidence in the Government. In fact, it is more than that. The whole country has faith in the Government because of its achievements and the many benefits which have been derived since its inception. To cite a few examples , I will mention the innumerable channels of employment in the civil service , in the teaching
MR. GUZANA : Isn't it ironical that people should seek to be some special subject and not just an ordinary subject ?
profession, in transport and also in commerce . Also of importance I will mention the splendid network of roads... MR. K.M. GUZANA : own horn? (Laughter)
MR. MABANDLA: The people are very sensitive. The only thing is that they have not been able to express their views .
Is this blowing your MR. GUZANA : You are right - the chiefs do not give them a chance to express their views.
MR . MABANDLA : ....drought relief measures , tractor ploughing facilities and water for stock. All these and many others have been provided since the Government's incpetion. During the recent general election last year the people signified in principle their support for separate government institutions by their overwhelming vote for the Transkei National Independence Party candidates. In this way the people rejected the barren and deceitful policy of multi - racialism because they have known this policy from the days of colonial government for 200 years . It has not changed ever since, nor have the hearts of men. Multi-racialism has
MR. MABANDLA : It is not the chiefs. It is the result of the policy of multi -racialism . The people are very concerned about their future , to such an extent that they are now getting very, very worried indeed. MR. GUZANA: Even after the general election? MR. MABANDLA : I believe that is why most of you lost in the general elections .
MR. GUZANA : worried now.
never brought the African people anything good. The off- shoots of this policy of multi - racialism are hatred, oppression , deceitfulness , colour bar and many others . We cannot go back to that any more. All we are interested in now is to look to our future . We are not like earthworms that move backwards and forwards at the touch of a finger. We cannot go back to the status of provincial councils or Bunga. (Interjections) In brief, therefore , I have given you the reasons why the people have lost faith in the policy of multi-racialism . It is supposed to be a democratic institution and democracy
But you said they were
MR. MABANDLA : Because they are .
MR. GUZANA : Yes , they should be . MR . MABANDLA : What they want is selfrealisation; what they want are privileges . (Interjections ) I have always maintained separate development to be the only ticket for the African people .
57.
MR . GUZANA : I am sure the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni will dispute that.
Transkei at the present moment is part of the Republic , but we are working towards a goal when we will attain self- determination and I do believe that you also want freedom . I have always felt very , very annoyed sometimes when I hear people talking about the free nations of the world and when I consider my position and know that I am not included amongst those people who are termed the free nations of the world. I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition must at some stage have felt the same as I have felt.
MR. MABANDLA : If we follow the policy of multi- racialism our African people will always be the under-dog of the other nations . That is the reason why on this side of the House we have accepted in principle the policy of separate development. I know that many people , although they are enjoying the fruits of separate development.... MR. GUZANA: For instance , yourself. You are able to buy property in Norwood but you are still opposed to....
MR. GUZANA: Now if you have felt the way I have felt I would not have followed separate development because it leads to a cul de sac .
MR . MABANDLA: I am for separate development, I am not for a multi -racial policy. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: racialism as a ladder.
MR. MABANDLA: No, it does not. Separate development is a stepping-stone for all nations to attain nationhood.
But you use multi-
MR. GUZANA : Can you tell me why the Nationalists do not separate the Afrikaner from the English if this is such a good thing ?
MR. MABANDLA : To where ? Mr. Chairman, I would implore the hon. members on the other side to be honest because inwardly and inside their hearts most of them are for separate development. OPFOSITION MEMBER : thinking.
MR. MABANDLA : That is your problem . I am not concerning myself with that. I am concerned about the welfare of the African people and not of other races , because all other races have not shown any concern for our people . It has been said very often that the Transkei Government is responsible in a way for influx control regulations . I want to inform the hon. members that the influx control regulations were a measure of the Republican Government many years ago, long before the inception of the present Transkei Government.
That is wishful
MR. MABANDLA : I am sure that most of you are only wearing this as a veil because when you follow the footsteps of each and every one on the opposite benches , and their actions in the districts from which they come , you find that these are not honest people and the people It is , however, pathetic that have to suffer . at a time when the people of the Transkei were granted self- rule the country should be plagued by drought and famine and shortage of work. All these are giving the new nation a very hard time indeed.
MR. GUZANA : Is that the only argument you have to justify influx control ? MR. MABANDLA : The influx control regulations affect our people very much indeed because you can imagine the hundreds of thousands that queue in at the labour centres looking for work, and you have been told time and again that the Transkei Government is doing its best to get these people into employment. The accusations levelled against the Transkei Government are unjustified.
MR . J.M. DUMALISILE : Complete that sentence - as a result of separate development . MR . MABANDLA : It is not as a result of separate development. I would remind the hon. member that he knows very well that the Parliament of the Republic is in charge of affairs and they are the people who are partially responsible for the shortage of work.
MR. GUZANA: Do you condone inclux control? MR. MABANDLA : Well , I don't.
MR. DUMALISILE : So you admit that you blame them ? (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point or order, Mr. Chairman, I have noticed that since this session began my hon. friend across the floor, the Leader of the Opposition , has carried the indulgence you have been giving him too far. He asks a series of questions sitting down and I think the hon. member ought to stand up when he puts a question to the hon. member while he is speaking .
MR. MABANDLA: Well, the Republican Government is in charge of affairs and we in the Transkei have no control over affairs in the Republic . MR . GUZANA : And the Transkei is part of the Republic and you have no control ! This is a candid admission.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in my view a sitting member has the privilege of interjecting and throwing questions at a member who is speaking and I have taken advantage of that privilege which has been exercised with dignity and restraint, (Laughter) without any idea to filibuster a man out of his
MR. MABANDLA : Well , any fool.... OPPOSITION MEMBERS : (Laughter) MR . MABANDLA:
( Laughter)
Well , well.....
Any fool knows that the 58.
argument, but merely to elicit information, and I think the questions I put have enriched the discussions here. THE CHAIRMAN :
relevant question put to any speaker should be with the consent of the Chairman. He must surely stand up when doing so. CHIEF P. JOZANA: On a point of order , I would like to know if the Opposition members complain when the speaker has his time curtailed, seeing that his time has been wasted.
Carry on, hon. member.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I still insist upon the point of order . Rule 34 reads : "A member shall not interrupt the speech of another member except - (a) by rising to a point of order , when the member speaking shall resume his seat and the member interrupting shall simply direct attention to the point which he wishes to bring to notice and submit it to the Chairman or Deputy Chairman for decision ; or (b) to put a relevant question to the speaker...." That "or" should be read with "by rising to put a relevant question" .
THE CHAIRMAN : I am the person concerned to give an extension of time to the speaker . MR . MABANDLA : There has also been some argument in regard to the last elections in connection with the chiefs influencing the electorate . It is natural sometimes when one feels that he has no support from the electorate to criticize and bring up all sorts of stories . What I know is that the candidates from the Opposition side found that the electorate were not interested in their policy and that they have learnt now to know what is good for them , and somehow or other those candidates complained that the chiefs were obstructing them .
MR. GUZANA : No. THE CHIEF MINISTER : consent of the Chairman.
Yes , and with the
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, if we have to read this regulation properly the preamble goes on to say " .... except (a) by rising to a point of order...", then it says " ...or (b) to put a relevant question..."
MR. GUZANA : Didn't they say so? MR. MABANDLA : For instance , the hon. member for Mqanduli complained yesterday that the chiefs obstructed his election campaign. The only thing I know is that some of these candidates never even approached the chiefs to ask for permission to hold meetings . They take if for granted that the chief is on the Government side . Of course , if they wanted to approach the chief they could do so.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : With the permission of the Chairman. You put it without the permission of the Chairman. MR. GUZANA : There is therefore no need to rise to put a relevant question. The consent of the Chairman is given tacitly when he does not object to that question being put, and the hon. member across the floor is not going to regulate the thinking of the Chairman nor is he going to induce the Chairman to think the way he thinks in the conduct of business here . (Interjections ) In my view the Chairman is free to exercise his rights within the ambits of these provisions and if there is a liberal interpretation that seems to hurt the hon. member across the floor , it does not hurt the Chairman.
MR. GUZANA : ask permission.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, we are not going to have your ruling set aside . The hon. member is still continuing to put questions sitting down. CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, this is a very painful act by the hon. Minister on the other side . This sort of thing is often done , making the speakers sit down.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I would like to know whether any member in this House can seek the permission of the Chairman while he is sitting down. It says here "...to put a relevant question to the speaker with the consent of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman. " If the contention of my friend, the hon. member for Dalindyebo region, is correct then he can, while sitting down, seek your permission , Sir. ( Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : order ?
MR. MABANDLA: Another point made is that we have 64 chiefs and only 45 elected members in this House . This is the foundation of this constitution which each and every member accepted when they got into this House and of course it must be remembered that the chiefs are the representatives of the people as well , so that no-one can say that all these representatives are....
I am very serious about it,
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , could it be clearly explained how long the hon. member can continue to speak?
You are a legal THE CHIEF MINISTER : man. You cannot put your own interpretations apart from what is contained in these regulations . THE CHAIRMAN :
Is that a point of
THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, this is important and the Leader of the Opposition seems to take it very lightly.
MR. GUZANA: believe you me .
Yes, to inform him - not to
THE CHAIRMAN : I think the Opposition side is responsible for what is happening. They put
It is quite clear that any
59.
questions to the hon. member, wasting his time , and he has not had a chance to complete his address . Do not complain.
about. Mr. Chairman, this ignoramus who talks when he knows nothing - there is a difference between a question and an interjection . The bone of contention was asking a question while sitting down. You can interject while sitting down.
On a point of order , Mr. IMR. GUZANA: Chairman, a member who is addressing this House will have questions and interruptions thrown at him within the 30 minutes.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: that?
CHIEF MABANDLA:
You asked a question.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: merely interjecting .
Where do you get
I was
CHIEF MABANDLA : But the Chief Minister asked a question.
MR. GUZANA: .... and I don't see how the Chairman can say because a man has had these interruptions he can have more than 30 minutes .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not responsible for your leaving school before you were old enough to do so. (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN: I have to use my discretion because his time has been wasted.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman, I have replied, but because there is so much commotion which has been caused by the Opposition arguing about how the constitution should be interpreted they have used much of my time. I do not see why there should be complaints now about the time I am addressing the House . I do not know whether they are jealous because I am standing, but I beg to sit down. (Laughter)
CHIEF NDAMASE? I was just saying that the Europeans arrived in this country and took this our land , and if you take anything that belongs to one person then that breeds fear of that person . THE CHIEF MINISTER : this policy .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the motion of no confidence in the Government the Government supporting a policy which is a hardship and a wicked policy, the policy of separate development in this country . To prove that this policy is a wicked policy, it is an old policy which was first called the segregation policy and later the parallel development policy. Later still it was called by an Afrikaans name - "apartheid" - and now it is called the policy of separate development . All this goes to prove that it is a wicked policy and they have been unable to find one suitable name for it. To show how wicked the policy is , a word is used that is commonly used by judges when they are granting a separation between husband and wife . As soon as
But you asked for
CHIEF NDAMASE : And seeing they are keen always to be head of affairs in this country, they think and think and then decide : Let us use the term " separate development" so that the future of South Africa will be decided by ourselves in the absence of the African people . THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you asked for this policy. You went to Pretoria with me. CHIEF NDAMASE : Our chiefs say they I do not think they are support this thing. speaking the truth. It is very painful that they are not responsible for the administration of this country. They want to have the administration in their hands and I would not have any confidence in them if I were the Government of the Republic . I can never trust anyone who , suffering pain, turns round and says he is not suffering pain. A chief at Sharpeville once said: "It is desirable that all the African
the judge pronounces that there should be separation that is proof that the people are not pulling well together and therefore they must be set apart from one another. And who is Who is boosting it? supporting this policy? It is the Europeans who are governing this country.
people come together".... GOVERNMENT MEMBER :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is true. They are separating from you because they do not want you with them .
That is correct.
CHIEF NDAMASE : ... " to make it plain to the White man that all the African people are on a par with the White man. " (Interjections ) That made it very plain in his mind that the African people , separte among themselves , are not equal to the White man. My hon. chief here asks who has opposed us. Is it the White people ? It is this policy that makes us aware of oppression by the White People ? (Interjections ) He must be afraid of you because you are merely bearing this paid without complaining. I am sure if you had an opportunity you would retaliate very dratically against the White people. (Laughter) These are the things that are painful to us . There are boards which are concerned solely with the administration of African people's affairs . The XDC is composed only of Europeans and yet it is for our benefit inthis our land. The XDC ought
CHIEF NDAMASE: They arrived in the country of our forefathers . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, would you please go according to the regulations . The hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Education and the Chairman agreed there should be no interjections . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not interjections . You don't know what you are talking 60 .
placed each in their separate areas . This is carried out here in the towns where it affects African people but not when it affects Europeans . Why is that? There is the fruit of separate development. We have now these influx control regulations ....
to be educating us , but there is not an instance of a teacher who wants to pass information to a child and says the child must be in one place and the teacher in a different place . The Governing Council of Fort Hare - the University Co lege is inthe hands of White people for the Africans only.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Where was separate development in 1945 ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you refused to support our motion on it last year . CHIEF NDAMASE: At Jongilizwe School - the school for your own chiefs ' sons the school is in the hands of the White people . In all the secondary schools headed by European principals there is not a single Black man in their governing councils . (Interjections) In the Department of Agriculture we have rehabilitation planning committees and when this is put before us it is stated that there should be a magistrate and the chief of the area concerned. I wil tell you what happened to me. A planning committee that visited our area surveyed it and , while there was a headman in company with the agricultural officer, thereafter the planning committee went into committee and we don't know where the headman was.. He was never in that committee and all we saw was the coming in of agricultural officers . I have already stated that this policy of separate development is a wicked policy and wickedness and lies are one and the same thing. A lie is put down in all the regulations and these regulations are carried out. If you look at the Transkei Government diary in front of my hon. friend over there , you will find mention of a Tender Board for the Transkei and this board is apparently an independent body. Who are the members of this board ? Only the White people . We have Cabinet Ministers - why are they not members of that board? At least the Minister of Roads and Works ought to be a member of that board seeing that her Department is concerned in the work.
CHIEF NDAMASE : ...and also the contracts that the people have to undertake when they want employment. It has resulted in separate salary scales for Black and White , whereas if you buy a pair of trousers in any shop the price is the same whether it is a Black or a White customer. As far as the sales tax is concerned which is being introduced , who is going to suffer most from this tax - White or Black? It is the Black man who is going to suffer , because though his standard of education may be equal to that of the European counterpart , his salary is lower. Take the case of the Black doctors who are now complaining, if you place their increase in salary of 15 per cent, it is still very much lower than that of the European or Coloured counterpart. Is that not the result of the separate development policy?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No.
CHIEF NDAMASE: It is the policy of separate development which has created this situation. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. CHIEF NDAMASE : May I put this before you : The policy of multi - racialism is the only answer to all the confusion that is being experienced in South Africa. We on this side feel that the future of our children should be determined by ourselves and not by any other people .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Secretary is there. CHIEF NDAMASE : I have a suspicion that even when the Cabinet meets it meets with their Secretaries and it is the opinion of the Secretaries that is carried out. Even in administrative matters I think it is the opinion of the Secretaries that is carried out because the heads of
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Come over this side .
Hear, hear.
CHIEF NDAMASE : This is the point I want to make clear . In years gone by we had direct representation in the Cape Town Parliament .
staff of these departements are all Europeans . Even the hon. Ministers cannot tell me that there are people who are being trained to be able to run these departements so that when the time comes they will be able to take over easily from the European Secretaries . Inthe Transkei we have a very strange thing - justice is blind in the Transkei . That a person on the bench should be told that because he is Black he cannot exercise justice relative to a European criminal ! And what is the cause ? The cause is separate development , which was meant to maintain White supremacy in this country and the perpetual domination of the Africans . And where is this experienced? Right here in the Transkei where it is maintained that the Africans must administer their own affairs . Our leader here asked whether separate development was exercised among the Europeans, Afrikaner and English. There is a law in connection with ethnic grouping in this country · namely, that different tribal units be
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You mean the provincial council . CHIEF NDAMASE : Yes , thanks for reminding me - I mean the provincial council. What we want is that in any law-making body, any legislature , we should be represented. When you want to slaughter a beast you don't bring all the beasts into the house to choose which one you want. We object to laws being made in our absence. Recently an Act concerning Fort Hare That is our was discussed in Parliament. University. Did you ever have a draft bill placed before you at cabinet level ? If you haven't, can you explain why? That is not the only law. There are also labour regulations . Was that bill ever placed before you ? Why is it that these bills are not placed before you? (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please .
61 .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Isn't it the result of separate development? If multi- racialism were followed as a policy in this House we would be represented in all legislative councils affecting our welfare . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : think anybody takes you seriously. MR . T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: over their dead bodies .
a party like the TNIP . A man is judged on the fruits of his efforts , like the tree . The Transkei Government has considered the main points e.g. education and the needs of the people . I will first deal with education. As far as education is concerned , we had difficulties . I have worked in that field . We spent huge sums of money building schools . Now as far as education is concerned , everything goes on smoothly because the Government has taken on its shoulders the requirements of education and has subsidized the building of schools to the amount of R1,600 per classroom . I am going to read out a list of schools that this Government has started on to show the amount of interest the Government has in the education of our children. 24 secondary schools have been built during this period and 30 primary schools have been erected in different places by the Government , and the people have contributed nothing towards the cost. This has occurred during a period offour years. In this regard the Transkei Government has shown its interest. I shall now turn to employment. The Government has taken much trouble to employ our children and these are the results : Very many children have been employed in the offices . They were not employed previous to this and, further, the Transkei Government has seen to it that people are being trained . Last year the Transkei Government sent two members in connection with transport, and I was one of them . Since we went into that business of transport many people have become taxi-drivers . Since the Road Transportation Board has been moved from East London to Umtata many people who could not get licences have now obtained them . ( Interjections ) Dealing with the Department of Roads and Works , employees of the Transkei Government went to the rural locations and put the roads into good repair . Aged women now get transport from their kraals . You should honour the labour and achievements of the Transkei Government. When people have something to say against the Transkei Government as far as Jabulani is concerned, I wish to point out that the Transkei Government does not issue orders for the brewing of Jabulani . There is a liquor law which protects you and I will read it out to you: "In terms of the Department's
I don't
They said
CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. member of the other side says "over their dead bodies" , They maintain that was said by " our brother , de Villiers Graaf". They say he and the Nationalists are one as far as that is concerned . Why is it that you are holding up such a policy - a policy which is very painful to you? (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF NDAMASE : Are you telling the truth when you say you approve of this policy , or is it because you are afraid of possible bloodshed if you are required to go to Cape Town? Let me tell you this if you do anything and you are afraid, it means that if you find the person of whom you are afraid sleeping you will stab him . (Laughter) Don't be afraid of the Republican Government - merely show respect, because if you are afraid you may do harm to that Government. Now let me come home and leave the Republican Government alone . Some maintain that the Democratic Party has done nothing during the past five years. It was the Democratic Party that was responsible for the use of English medium instruction in the schools .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What are you talking about? CHIEF NDAMASE : You supported that because you realised it was what you wanted, but you did not enforce it. (Interjections ) One other matter that came from the Democratic Party was the increase in stipends for chiefs and headmen. This was raised by Mr. Bubu who used to sit here . At the same time the same member advocated the increase of old-age pensions , and has that not taken place ?
circular , before a local authority seeks permission to manufacture beer it must give local publicity to the proposal and afford interested persons or bodies the opportunity of making representations or lodging objections . " Leave the Transkei Government alone . Iwill now touch on labour bureaux , of which you complain so much. The pass laws were passed many years ago in 1911. Where was the Transkei Government that year?
MR. C. DABULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I associate myself with the Government side in that this House has confidence in the Government . Separate development is the creation of the Almighty. Even birds are of different denominations . (Laughter) All animals , be they sheep , cattle , etc. , will be found grazing by themselves . If you take a sheep and place it in a herd of cattle you will find the sheep running away from the cattle to rejoin the sheep, so that it is the creation of the Almighty God. The Transkei is fortunate in having a leader such as Chief K.D. Matanzima - a leader who is wise ; a leader who knows how to consider the needs of the people . He even considered the salary of the Leader of the Opposition in that he gave him an increase . (Laughter) For that we ought to thank the leader of the Government on behalf of the Leader of the Opposition. The Transkei is fortunate in having
OP POSITION MEMBER : The question is what is the Transkei Government doing about it now? MR. DABULA : I will continue . You say a lot against the Transkei Government and yet there is ignorance about certain things which never came from the Transkei Government , but which were originated long ago by the Republican Government. To come back to Roads and Works , think of the roads , bridges and buildings which have been built by the Department of Roads .
62 .
The hon. Mr. Majija has asked where . At Bulube's a building has been erected . Is that building not a good thing ? (Interjections ) But it is in the Transkei. Where are you? Have you come to this House for your own particular district or for the people of the Transkei ? I thought you had the interests of the Transkei people at heart. There is a lot of confidence in the Government of the Transkei . If you should lose this Government the Transkei wil be lost. A lot of progress has been made by the Government. Tea and coffee is being grown. Before the advent of the Transkei Government was tea and coffee ever grown? It is likely that you will buy tea and coffee at reduced prices in the future . You should be thankful to the God that has given you the Moses of the Transkei – K.D. Matanzima. I think that if anyone of you members were to be made Chief Minister of the Transkei the next day that member would be mentally deranged. This Prime Minister has a broad view and he knows how to lead those who are suffering and You don't go on those who are well-to- do . slashing all these people . . These people are bad and it is not good to flog a man when he has fallen down. Don't flog our friends over there any longer. (Laughter) The Transkei will have a sensible government, a trustworthy government, a confident government , a government that works for the good of the people.
thing disgraceful as far as the Africans are concerned. What we maintain is that we should be of one spirit in this country , because South Africa, the Republic , is our country of birth. The White people , the Afrikaners , arrived after we did in this country. On their arrival they had no wives with them. THE CHAIRMAN: I will ask the hon. member not to speak in that strain. CHIEF MABANDLA : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I must say to the hon. member who has been making a fuss about influx control , saying it was nothing to do with him but that it was in force when the Transkei Government commenced, that you accepted it because you accepted separate development. In fact, it is the principle of the Afrikaner to divide and rule and that is what they are doing , and you agree with them. How can we have confidence in that? At first there was a complaint about the colour bar . Even the pupils at school sang about the colour bar during the lifetime of Dr. Malan. This was changed to " apartheid" and today it is separate development. All those terms refer to one and the same thing. People who support what is complained against by the people - are they not selling their country? You said there was plenty of work in the Transkei and therefore all the people in the labour centres of the Republic should come back to the Transkei , and today people are dying because of you. How can we have confidence in such a Government? Again, we go to the labour bureaux. I say this as a challenge to anyone - go and see what is happening there . People are in difficulties there ; they are shedding tears because they come from far afield and they get there with very little money and have to beg for bread because of this nonexisting thing. Since the days of the UTTGC are you a true parliament? How can there be a
The debate was adjourned . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I have just been informed that the allowances for the members will be paid at a quarter to 1. For that reason I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 this afternoon. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think the Chairman should bear in mind the fact that this is a month-end and certain commitments require certain people to attend to them . I therefore recommend to you, Sir, an early adjournment this afternoon.
parliament within one state ? Has such a thing ever occurred ? Today we heard that the hon. the Chief Minister should be called the Prime Minister from now on. That is amazing. This will be injurious to us . You have been here in this House for five years telling the people that there would be factories and industries , but these things still do not exist. Some doctors came here and when they arrived they were disappointed to find they had been misled. What is so wrong about you is your threat of assault. I tell you, no -one will ever assault me . (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Chairman has no discretion with regard to the adjournments of this House . He can only adjourn this House on a motion from the House and, in any event, I think the Government is responsible enough to see that the whole time at our disposal should be used. We have sufficient time to attend to our commitments from 8.30 till 11. In any event I want to draw the attention of the hon. member across the floor that the Chairman has no discretion in the matter. He has to adjourn the House The
THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on with your debate , hon. member.
at 5 p.m. every day except Fridays . Assembly
CHIEF MABANDLA: As you say the chiefs are on your side , the chiefs who are on your side are doing service for the people and they die for the people , why are they guarded by the police? It is because they are untruthful. (Interjections ) One hon. member says it is on account of certain murderers. It is only the result of untruthfulness on the part of the chiefs . They go about disseminating lies. They are people who are only anxious to get certain privileges and to forget about the people . A leader should stand for the truth and interest himself in his people. He must not only be interested in his own stomach. This question
adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the no-confidence motion was resumed . CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , verily we have no confidence in the Government. As soon as we commenced in this House it appeared that some of the members on the other side wanted to take up arms and a person who does so is doing some63 .
man is not happy about this Jabulani business . He keeps on stopping you every now and again. We know Bantu liquor. Bantu liquor has no such bad results as this Jabulani . (Interjections)
of influx control , though you have told us when influx control was introduced , it has not been effective . When the Afrikaner decided that people should stay apart then influx control had effect. That is why people are told in the labour centres to go back to Matanzima's government. I have been told here about my illiteracy. The truth is whether they are illiterate or not the chiefs must die on behalf of their people . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEF MABANDLA : You must know that I am an old man - don't keep contradicting what I say. (Laughter) We have been complaining about something. Even if this Jabulani has been made for the purpose of raising funds , it should not be brought into the midst of decent people . In Tsolo I have seen the district surgeon and I would request the Government to see that Jabulani is removed from that area. I remember one occasion when one of these young "tsotsis " went through a window, grabbed a handbag and rushed to the place where Jabulani was being And their language is appalling . It is sold. not for the good of the people . It should be poured into a hole where it cannot be seen. Hon. members, I request you to think about this . Concoctions similar to Jabulani which degrade the people should be thrown aside. Others questioned us about European liquor , asking if we accept it. European liquor is better than the present Jabulani which is destroying the people . Our own Bantu liquor , the true Bantu liquor, is far better than the White man's liquor. These things which you people on that side say are good things show you are not a good Government for the people . Mark this : The leaders of the people are a link between the Black and the White governments . I refer this remark to the chiefs . The reason I am standing here is because I am a chief. You drink too much Jabulani. A leader who is a chief or any leader must take something from the people and pass it on to the Government , and take what the Government says to the people so that the people should consult about it. The truth can only be found there . No people would have to be guarded by the police thereafter. I will never have to be guarded by the police till Doomsday. -Rise up , it is dawn! Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I say we have no confidence whatsoever in this present Government. I have heard the hon. Mr.ka- Tshunungwa talking a lot of tripe . I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I request you to observe rule 33 (h) . Please do not make these interruptions so often. Let the member speak as he wishes to. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , they will be worried because when these people hear the truth they cannot stand it. The worst of all with them is the untruthfulness to their own people . Let me say you had better keep quiet. Firstly , about education education was at first being carried on during the time of Mr. Dugard, then the Bantu Education Act came into being and your leader accepted that in conjunction with his friends , and I have little regard for them . Then we came here and were told our children should use English and not only be taught Xhosa. This side said they were not prepared to become domestic servants employed in the kitchen, but that the old system of education should be reintroduced . When the Minister of Education accepted that motion I was thankful. There is another matter on that side in Emboland, though I do not know anything about other places. We say we have self-government in the Transkei , knowing that we are yet under the Republic , though you say we should be amalgamated with other areas and we say we want the full Republic . It is said in Emboland that stock belonging to people is impounded and at the charge office it is said that even if there should be one or three or 30 cattle the owner will have to pay R30 , yet we say we have got an honourable Government. When will you prove that you are working , apart from passing insults at people or assaulting them ? I have heard something said about the elections in particular in regard to Tembuland region. What surprises me is that you always go around with knobkerries saying you will have people arrested . What is the meaning of all that ? As the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke has already
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the first instance , naturally , I would like to announce that I negate the motion by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Believe me you , Sir , I have given myself the opportunity to sit down and learn, and I am so thankful that I did it because , as a result of having listened , I know you better. In fairness to you, you and the leader on this side were able , perhaps at times under very difficult circumstances , to put the level of the debate where it ought to be . For that I thank you. It was a pleasure to listen to you speaking with easy deliberation, with wonderful and commendable decorum , but I had the unhappy conclusion to say : What misplaced energy and what misdirected energy ! Mr. Chairman, I will go further, but before I continue with what I want to say, I want to say this - I do not think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was happy
stated , in Emboland we are all happy whether you be for the Government or for the Opposition. I know that people who are in the Assembly are amicable to one another when they get home and sometimes I would fain go to the chiefs on the other side proving that I am not in arms against them . What kind of Government is this that wants to wave knobkerries ? Gentlemen, try to control yourselves because one day a person will make a mistake and go to the wrong man. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF MABANDLA : I fear no- one , however big that person is I will throw him to the dust. (Laughter) I will make this request to you all . There is something that is always a worry to me - the question of Jabulani. Even the Chair64.
man. For your information , (Interjections ) even the Citizenship Act was passed and you were not included. You don't know that! Now, when the Government of South Africa was satisfied that the position of the White man was beyond any challenge , they brought this gesture , and while on that point I want to say this for the benefit of the Transkei , South Africa and the world - that what is happeing in the Transkei is a puzzle to all students of social and political science , especially to the front bench , because amongst them are men for whom I have the deepest respect. It has never happened in the struggle for freedom that sons of the same soil have differed about getting places in the sun. You can only differ It has never happened ! in techniques and methods of administration not in getting a place under the sun. Now after five years (we are getting to the sixth year ) we have to come here and make this Chamber a place of entertainment - these people , the respectable sons of the Transkei ! I respect some of you . For your information, I have given you Let me come nearer the historical survey . home. For your information , Jinnah and Nehru differed very fundamentally , but when it came to the point of driving the British Raj away they agreed whole-heartedly. Leboea could not sit side by side with Mokhohle but when it came to the point of putting Lesotho under the sun , they agreed. Mbokodo and the Progressives in Swaziland differed on many fundamental issues , but when it came to Swaziland getting the place under the sun, they shook hands together . For your information, there was the Central African Federation. Kaunda said : "I am not interested . I will see to the people of Zambia first and if ever there is a federation I must see that the house in Zambia is swept clean. Now what curse is this in these Territories , that on a point of coming together and at last getting the land of our forebears , as we are the sons we should come here like Nero and watch while Rome It was a sign of power and authority burns ? and strength when the gesture was made by the South African Government that we can look after our own. Verwoerd deviated from the usual beaten pattern of leaders in South Africa . He , amongst many things , (read his speech ! ) for the first time included the words : "In your separate state you are entitled to self-determination and self-assertion. " We cling to that with a bulldog's tenacity. I am telling you it cannot be taken away from us, and for the pleasure and comfort of the hon. member from Engcobo let me say this to you: Go and tell everybody that we are Verwoerd not following Verwoerd's policy . gave us a basis as a springboard from which to Now, go and tell spring to other pastures . them , all and sundry. (Interjections )
with some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Ngqeleni. He likened the Leader of the Opposition to the honourable judge when the Son of Man was being charged. For your information, Sir , the villain of the drama of that time was the presiddng officer. He sa nothing wrong with the Son of Man but he did chastise him . MR. people .
R. MADIKIZELA :
Influenced by the
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I would like to sound a word of warning to the hon. member for Qumbu. He likened academic freedom to multi-racialism. I am almost sure if the the students in these universities heard you they would tear you to pieces because the analogy is far-fetched. (Interjections) I was amazed to find that history has passed before these gentlemen like a mirage in South Africa. Before I forget, for your information there are very few places in the world where the position of the White man has been as entrenched and as cemented as in the Republic of South Africa , and you must never for a moment believe that when Dr. Verwoerd made this gesture it was a You sign of weakness . You are mistaken. have no idea that as far back as 1852 , at the Snd River Convention , it was clear that there would be no equality between Black and White in the country . This was reiterated in 1854 in Bloemfontein, but what was even more significant, in the signing of the armistice in 1902 the British and Boer came together and made it clear that as far as we two are concerned there is no place near us for the Black man. After 1910 , when these two came together , they offered the Bungas in 1911 and even then, without the knowledge we have today , the African people rejected the Bungas . You want the Bunga today. That is why, in 1912 , the African leaders decided to form the African National Congress. They went over to England where they were In 1913, chased away and they came back. true to type , the then Union Government passed the Land Act and, by the grace of the Lord , in 1966 the position was corrected. Perhaps you don't know? In 1925 , for your information, a principle which is known in political science , that you can only tax people when they are represented, was abrogated and the people were taxed without representation. You know nothing about that. In 1927 the Union Government brought about what was called the Bantu Administration Act - the blueprint of Bantu administration. Then even the chiefs had to be under the then Governor-General and later the State President. Our leaders then (they would tear their hearts out if they could hear all the stuff you have been saying) met in 1935 in Bloemfontein to see if the position could be improved. In 1936 you know what happened . The position of the Black man was becoming worse and worse. For your information, in 1937 there was the Industrial Conciliation Act which is responsible for the low wages people get today not this Government - and for your information , in 1946 the position that had been brought about in 1923 was endorsed and confirmed , and since 1940 quite a lot of Acts in South Africa were passed which entrenched further the position of the White
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR :
To
come back, I would not like the hon. gentlemen to be charged with dishonesty and insincerity. Some of them joined the group to Pretoria. Some of them came back and I remember as vividly as if it was yesterday - they were singing "Nkosi Sikelel ' i - Afrika" in one of those chambers after signing. (Interjections) The Leader of the Opposition and myself were not there 65 .
with all the powers the White man has in South Africa , you would be satisfied to watch the Africans remaining the drawers of water and hewers of wood . You are satisfied that we must be the nation using the back door entrance because some of you are given the front entrance and are satisfied if it is said : " Mr. So- and- so , if all the Blacks in the Transkei were like you, it would be all right. You are a wonderful man" . (Laughter) Now, gentlemen, I am sorry the hon. member for Umtata is not here , but we want this from him : He must make a deliberate statement that the protection we give to his bus service must be withdrawn and all the applications in our offices must be considered favourably. He must make that statement. I come to the hon. member for Tsomo - he has been addressing gatherings for a long time in Tsomo. (Interjections)
but the people were very happy. Not only did they do that, but they actually went out to tell the people to vote. However , the next point is very serious . They had a shadow cabinet, they prepared themselves to rule the Transkei and this was on the basis of separate development , because they were going to rule the Transkei outside South Africa. The then prospective Chief Minister was busy distributing portfolios of the Cabinet. Gentlemen, this is tragic . It proved what we call "political immaturity" . It proves that these gentlemen had one slogan: We lead - we shall not be led. They got such a resounding shock when they were defeated that the Opposition was conceived in mental anguish and born in political confusion. (Laughter) And the sons of the soil of the Transkei are continuing the defeat since those days . They have not forgotten it. I go further : They say they want multi- racialism , and the question that may be asked is: With whom ? For your information, gentlemen, it was a few days after it became clear that the Transkei was going to look after itself that the Whites of the Transkei , through their Civic Association, petitioned the South African Government to say that never under any circumstances would they serve under a Black government. I leave that for the time being because , really, some of us were never impressed. I go to the next paint. The scholars of this situation in the Transkei are busy studying it. What is the reason for
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: He has been telling people that Tsomo was given preference by the Chamber here because he wanted those things done for Tsomo. My word! You go back and tell the people in Tsomo that the White magistrate must come back; the White doctor must come back; the White man in charge of the police station must come back, and I appeal to you in the evening of your life to be a gentleman. I must say this (you will excuse me , Mr. Chairman) - there is one man here , revered and loved by everybody . He has been part of the political life in South Africa before He has seen things some of us were born. happen in South Africa. He has been part of the struggle . In fairness to the citizens of the Transkei, alive and yet to be born, can it be true can there be reconciliation that in the eveing of his life he can oppose his sons and his sons ' sons getting a place under the sun? I refuse ! He is not that type . Let us make an appeal to those around him to leave him alone so that he can go quietly in the evening of his life and, like Aristophanes of old , tell stories about the struggle in the early days of the Transkei , of which he was a part. I go further and say that even a Black chairman of the Methodist Circuit in the Transkei was something to be opposed , and you opposed it, and therefore it is quite clear that this vote of no confidence , as so led by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, can be likened to the elephant who went into labour and produced a mouse. (Laughter) Some of the members know.... ( Inaudible interjection) Now, as a result of your remark let me come to you , because you are such a sweet friend of mine . Mr. Chairman, this is a descendant of Majeke . Mtengwane and Majeke were sent by the late Makaula , the chief of the Bacas , to look after that land on which they are until death. What he is doing today I do not know, not to mention the other member of Qumbu, because I happen to know he is most unhappy where he is , but simply because he has been with these gentlemen for so long he is For your unwilling to come to this side . information, I have two members at the back the two and only descendants of the great Madzikane ' who fought from Tugela right up to Indwe , and it is on record that Makaula said
this tragedy amongst the sons of the soil of the Transkei? Suggestions have been made - lack of political sincerity, lack of political honesty, They have no reference to history. It is as a result of lack of national consciousness , ingrained slave mentality (especially amongst the socalled educated), tribal jealousies , petty jealousies of paramount chiefs. I am not choosing any but I am leaving that to the judgement of posterity and the bar of mankind. There is only one thing in the way, and I must admit it is my unhappy conclusion to charge some of my friends with exploitation of the unsuspecting masses . In fairness to you, you went to the electorate because you wanted to come and govern, not to come and oppose . You never said so. Now, the question is this : If you are not interested in the whole scheme , what do you want here ? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: THE
Yes , resign!
MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR :
In
case you do not know, an Opposition in a land is an alternative government, and therefore it works within the framework of that accepted concept, but according to your pronouncement you are against the very concept of the establishment of a separate state for the Transkei . It is unknown in the history of political science . You cannot do that, except that you must agree therefore that you are swindlers . You come to parliament only to get the money yourselves . You have no idea of the poverty- stricken, ignorant people who lack this and that. You are not interested in them. The hon. member for Engcobo addressed a group somewhere and he assured them that one of these days His Worship the Mayor of Umtata would attend a tribal meeting at Engcobo. (Interjections ) According to you,
66.
Our policy is that we should be granted the right to live in this land in complete freedom , enjoying all the privileges and rights enjoyed by the people who share this land with us , receiving the same and identical remuneration. We must be given full freedom throughout the land and not be given this small area of the Transkei. People who have understanding know very clearly that we are circumscribed into this small area by the Afrikaners . Whilst they maintain we are free , it means freedom only in this very limited space . That is not our policy, nor is it the policy of the people of the world. Our one sole policy is that all nations , regardless of their colour , must have the same political privileges in this country because all those people are equal in understanding and mind.
one of these days this land will have to belong to the Bacas. One word and I am done. You will say : But where do you stand? For your information , we have embarked on a road and there is no power on earth that can ever stop us from that road. GOVERNMENT
MEMBERS :
Hear , hear.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: And as we move we are prepared to collect you into the wagons of freedom , even those of you who are satisfied with the fleshpots of Egypt. (Laughter) We hate nobody and we bear malice to none , but we believe the Lord Almighty created us for a place under the sun and we have got it in the Transkei. And who knows , as the hon. member said, when we connect with Zululand , Swaziland , Lesotho, where will you be? Let me tell you this, even if it was only the Mount Ayliff district or Qaukeni alone , we would have accepted the place where we can speak and breathe freely as the true children of God. Just to add to what the hon. member for Cofimvaba said , in case you do not know (bug I don't expect you to know) - even the National Congress in its heyday did suggest there should be a division of South Africa where we could be alone . Their suggestion was that the line must either be horizontal or vertical. To end up, ladies and gentlemen, we shall accept no second-hand position even for your sake . We are going to get whatever the Black man deserves , including the members ofthe Opposition, without one single shot fired in South Africa. For you and for your children, two things we shall do. We shall use our head and pen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: fables !
MR . KUTU : Stupid people think that the African people are free if they are given only the Transkei as it stands . In the reserves it is the custom for the women to build a pigstye out of stones and to put a pig into it. They take it from the pole to which it was tied with a rope and drive into into the stye . The older pigs believe they are free when they are freed from the rope and put into the stye , but the little piglets today know better and they know that if you put them into a pigstye they are not free . As the woman drives the little pigs into the stye you will find they turn left and right, not willing to enter the stye . Mr. Chairman , we on this side of the House are not willing to be placed in this pigstye , (Laughter) built for us by the Afrikaners . We want to enjoy full freedom over the whole of the Republic of South Africa. To make you understand fully that this policy of separate development is only acceptable to people who do not think deeply about it, and who have no foresight into the future of their own descendants , people who are concerned merely with filling up their own bellies , the sons of the Transkei have travelled throught the whole Republic and they are working everywhere within the Republic . Some of them are managing their own businesses and there is a regulation which affects unfavourably the whole of the African population - namely, influx control. Before the advent of influx control people worked and found employment anywhere within the boundaries of South Africa , but when influx control came into effect it was clear that employment was difficult to find. I will go further and say it is a great shame to the people who maintain this policy of separate development. I will say they are like people whose minds have been locked up in prison by their hon. leader who learnt all his political tricks from Mr. Hughes . He is using those tricks to control the minds of all the chiefs and all the members on his side . He has locked them in prison and in an effort to speak they merely breathe.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I do not think it is parliamentary to clap hands in the House. MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it grieves me that we have spent so much time listening to people deliberating in English that we do not understand and saying nothing that is worthwhile . We have a motion on this side of the House to the effect that the Government does not enjoy the confidence of the people. The ruling Government of the Transkei does not enjoy the confidence of the people. This is our sixth year of assembling in this hall. For all that period the world generally has been waiting in anticipation of results in this Assembly. Unfortunately nothing has come of it. I just want to mention what was said by the hon. the Chief Minister when he opened the Lubisi Dam. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: of order, Mr. Chairman……….
Aesop's
On a point
THE CHAIRMAN: Please sit down, hon. member. I do not want to repeat what I did yesterday . MR . KUTU: It was on that day that he distinctly said he was one of the people who had learnt his tricks from Mr. Hughes . We see those tricks now and he is using those tricks . There is this repeated question directed at the Opposition members as to what our policy is .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I want the hon. member to tell me if he can prove that Mr. Hughes is a cunning man. 67 .
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, one member from Emigrant Tembuland made the statement that there are raw and uncivilized people among the members and today if you see an uncivilized and uncouth person you will be disappointed. He likened us to dogs who have been badly fed and who defaecate badly. That was least expected from one of his educational standing. That makes me support what was said by a member from this side about the uncivilized and uncouth members from Qamata . Even if they have had privileges by being educated they are far from being uncivilized .
came people from Engcobo under arrest, with handcuffs on. I asked when I noted one man whom I knew among them what they had done and the reply was that they were arrested under the influx control regulations. They were arrested while they were engaged in their daily work, employed and not wandering about. I asked how they knew about it and the reply was they were surprised , but soon after the hon. the Chief Minister had been there the Afrikaners were up in arms and arrested several people . These people who were handcuffed related the cruelty exercised over the people . (Interjections ) I will tell you the names of these people . They were : M. Kumsha , K. Mkoqi , E. Nyati, M. Sekoti , S. Detol , A. Mangaliso, G. Sizile and Z. Sitonga. E. Nyati had a fractured left arm . They reported that soon after the Chief Minister had beenthere then the White people were up in arms against them . Seeing he is the head of the Government we have no confidence in, we believe he must have been responsible for this particular attitude of the White people towards our people. ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I will say and repeatedly say that we on this side of the House have no confidence in the Government. That Government only has the confidence of people who have no future prospects for their own children. I would like you to think how all these many people who are within the Republic can ever come into the Transkei and find places to run their businesses . Can you put a hundred rats into one basket and feel they will be happy in that basket ? Our view, those of us who represent the opinion of the people , is that we want full freedom throughout the whole Republic . Let us have one and same government as the White people. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, the hon. member from Qaukeni put a question to you. Do you wish to reply? MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman he need not reply.
MR . KUTU : I will request the hon. paramount chief to write his question down and I shall reply to it on Tuesday. (Laughter) On the 19th February, 1969 , we had the pleasure of a visit from the hon. the Chief Minister in the Engcobo area. When the people heard of him they came out in large numbers expecting to receive something good out of his visit. He proved outright to all the people of Engcobo that he was the Chief Minister of a Transkei Government that enjoyed no confidence from the people. Some widows and poor people left the meeting in tears because they were disgusted at being told by him of the help that the Government had extended to the people by offering them tractors to plough their land , when he said to them that whether they like it or not they must pay for the services rendered to them. I was present at that meeting. I put the question to the Chief Minister as to how he expected the poor widowed mothers who have no income from any source whatsoever to meet these commitments . His reply was that if you incur a debt then you must know how to meet that debt. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the people have no confidence whatsoever in the Government of the Transkei. All we see is a mishandling and misuse of the taxes paid by the Transkei people . All the Ministers go out in public cars , filling them with cartons of beer in order to bribe the chiefs and headmen to vote for a certain party . THE CHAIRMAN: use state funds?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that it is the end of the month and several car owners would like to pay their third-party fees I have been persuaded to request that we adjourn the House , but I want to sound a warning - that we have not come to play here and we shall not do it again. The sittings will go on as usual up to the time laid down in the rules. I move the House adjourn until tomorrow at 11 a.m. MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I stand up to second this motion as I indicated to the Government members before lunch that it would happen and it has happened. You will have confidence in the Opposition. (Laughter)
Can you prove that they
The debate was adjourned . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You had better withdraw that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Before we adjourn I would like to let you know that I intend closing this debate tomorrow. I shall allow two speakers , one from either side .
MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , even though I have expressed it, I withdraw. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , that is no withdrawal. He must give an unqualified withdrawal.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 1st May , 1969 . THURSDAY , 1st MAY , 1969
MR . KUTU: I withdraw , Mr. Chairman. Referring to influx control regulations , I feel I must repeat this . On the 15th April this year I was in Queenstown and a train from Johannesburg pulled into the station . Out of the train
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
68.
ANNOUNCEMENT
they took advantage of this same Constitution and stood for elections to come to this very House .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have the following notice to read to the House :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : terjections )
As this Assembly knows about the tea-growing project which my Department is developing in the district of Lusikisiki and has also shown an interest in it, I think it is fitting for me to inform the Assembly of a milestone of special significance that has now been reached in this very important undertaking. Yesterday, the 30th April, 1969, my Department concluded a contract with a firm of East London for a tea factory to be erected in the Lambasi administrative area of the Qaukeni region. The factory will be the second tea factory to be erected in South Africa. It is designed to manufacture 500 lbs . of made tea per hour and will be as modern and efficient in its function as any other tea factory in the world at this stage. The preparation of the site is already well advanced and it is confidently expected that it will be put into commission early in 1970. By the time this Assembly meets again in 1970 our tea, although still in small quantities , will be on the market.
Opportunists ! (In-
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: If there is anything that the hon. members can be charged with it is political dishonesty. If these hon . members were honest they should not, in the first place , have contested to come here; and while they are here they should resign because they say they want to go to the White man's parliament in Cape Town. They should know, or ought to know, that the road to the White man's parliament in Cape Town is not via this The only thing envisaged in the ConHouse . stitution of this House is gradual development of the Transkei leading to full nationhood and ultimate independence . (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I want to remind you of rule 33 (h) . Will the hon. member over there please be silent.
NO CONFIDENCE
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But if there is any day that this House will regret , it is the day which God regrets today - that is , the day when God created Satan and allowed him to be an opposition to himself. (Laughter ) Satan opposes all the good handiworks of God. Similarly, we on this side of the House allowed an opposition prematurely and this opposition today is opposing even the good works that we are doing on this side of the House . (Interjections) I have listened very carefully to the deliberations of the hon. members across the floor and I have discerned one thing and that is , not a single one of them , including their hon. leader , knows what policy they are following . I was intrigued when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition the other day said multi - racialism in society , multi - racialism in sport , multiracialism in economics - all those do not mean racial integration. Of course , I am not surprised at this ignorance of the very policy which they are propagating. It is because in 1963 , soon after the general elections , their mentor , the Daily Dispatch, in an article said this : "There are already signs that parties will be formed in the Transkei . " And this paper even attempted to christianize or to name these parties . It said the governing party would probably be known as the Conservative Party and the Opposition would be known as the Democratic Party. (Interjections)
The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , having listened to the dying declarations which have been made by the hon. members across the floor and having seen them soundly lacerated by the speakers on this side of the House , my unpleasant duty this morning is to say to them : Earth to earth, dust to dust, and rest in peace , thou unfaithful servants. (Laughter) You have not done your work. But before their burial I wish to charge them all and sundry once more with perjury and political dishonesty. Not so many months ago they jointly and with a common purpose stood here in front of the Honourable the JudgePresident of the Eastern Cape and swore to uphold and respect the Constitution of the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Hear, hear.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The preample to this Constitution, which is the very basis and cornerstone of this Constitution, reads as follows: "Whereas the policy of separate development envisages the gradual development of self-governing Bantu National Units in the traditional Bantu homelands " . I put the stress on the phrase " policy of separate development" . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And, as a son may not refuse a Christian name given it by the father, the Opposition across the floor accepted the name "Democratic Party" which they are using today. (Laughter ) We on this side of the House would not be led and hoodwinked by that paper. We gave our party our own name the Transkei National Independence The very Party, which is self-explanatory . name explains and describes the aims and objects of this side of the House .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, the 'hon. members swore to respect and uphold this Constitution, but what do they do? They come here and speak of multi- racialism . If that is their policy I must tell them that whatever speeches they make here they are speaking out of this House . (Interjections) They have not only shown disrespect for this Constitution but
69.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: democratic .
You will never be
cannot eat your cake and have it . It is either you tell the people of the Transkei that you do not want complete independence for the Transkei, or that you want merely a provincial status for the Transkei. But , most unfortunately , you will not do that because you know that everybody in the world today is craving for independence . It does not matter where he is · be he on a small island or in a big and wide country , the Last year in this people want independence . very Assembly your erstwhile prominent member, the hon. Dr. Bala, said he had left your party and had ceased to be a traitor and a collaborationist. Yes , he said so when he left this partially submerged boat. (Laughter) He said he had ceased to be a traitor and a collaborationist. That was a great revelation. It was an admission that you across the floor are a group of traitors and collaborators . (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But what does the Opposition stand for ? The leader the other day said , together with the erstwhile leader in a joint statement, they would like the Transkei to be no more than province or to advance no more than to gain only a provincial status. Now that statement is a very important and significant statement which was uttered by the erstwhile Leader of the Opposition and the present Leader of the Opposition, and you on that side have never denounced that statement and therefore you only stand for the Transkei to be no more than a province of the Republic of South Africa. In other words , you would like to have the very powers that the Transkei enjoys today diminished from a legislative assembly to a body that does not make laws. Now, I challenge you honourable gentlemen to state to this House clearly and succinctly whether you abide by that statement, and I shall issue another challenge to you apart from what the hon. member for Emigrant Tembuland issued to you - that you go to a platform with ith me and preach that you want a provincial status for the Transkei , and allow me to preach that we want complete independence for the Transkei , and see what will happen to you. (Interjections ) During November, 1963, the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland made a significant statement which was quoted by the hon. member for Qaukeni , when he said that it is not possible at this stage to introduce multiracialism in the Transkei but that multi-racialism would be introduced in the Transkei after the Transkei had gained complete independence. Now that was a clear admission that if your
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The trouble with you, hon. gentlemen, as the hon. member for Emigrant Tembuland said, is that you are just political colts . You do not know hard politics . Where were you long ago when we fought for the representation of the African people by Africans in the Republican Parliament? I know some time back some of you termed me as having been a Congressite . I was never a Congressite , but I was a member of the AllAfrica Convention.... OPPOSITION MEMBER: Communists ! THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ....and I left that party when it affiliated into the Unity Movement which was a multi- racial organisation and backed by people who had communistic tendencies . As a nationalist I would not belong to an organisation which was multi- racial in outlook and communistically inclined . Yes , the Unity Movement was . It had men like van Schoor and B.M. Kies , so it is clear today that I was never a Congressite . (Interjections)
leaders get into power you would follow the same policy of separate development. You have never - none of you have ever repudiated this statement. The hon. Paramount Chief is a diplomat. The hon. Paramount Chief knows that within the Republic of South Africa the Transkei cannot practise a policy which is not envisaged in this Constitution, but I would like to know this from you hon. members , and I hope the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will reply to this when he does reply: How can you reconcile the statement of the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland with a provincial status ?S Because, according to you, you don't want complete independence for the Transkei and the hon. Paramount Chief says multi - racialism can only be practised after the Transkei has gained complete independence . Over to you, hon. leader , when you do reply. MR. K.M. GUZANA: you are still speaking.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am surprised that you are still there , hon. member from Engcobo , because at the time we were both African nationalists . At the time we refused, together with you, to allow Advocate Buchanan to address the meeting of voters at Engcobo. You were still an African nationalist so I am very much surprised that you are still there. (Interjections )
Back to you whilst
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now I would like you hon. members also to tell this House whether you stand by the statement which was made in November by the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland namely, that if your party gets into power it will practise the same policy of separate development until comHon. plete independence has been achieved. gentlemen, we must be honest. Nobody is interested in your political acrobatics which are presently assuming professional standards. You
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: event, may you know……..
In any
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: At the time you wanted direct representation in Cape Town.
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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , and we were African nationalists , together with you. You won't deny that - and we wanted direct representation in Cape Town. 70.
MR. MAJIJA:
And we still want it now.
MR. GUZANA: They have indicated that the Government has built schools for the people of the Transkei , when the people of the Transkei themselves are contributing to the establishment of these schools ; and if there is a claim that schools have been built without any financial responsibility on the electorate then it must be in the TNIP strongholds. We are not going to be deceived by retired pensioners who will sell their souls to get a pittance to eke out their last days for which they were unable to provide as teachers ; (Laughter) nor are we going to be deceived by mini-minded opportunists who people who betray Live and let live say:
In any THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: event, may you know that the separation of the races over the globe is God's will. If anybody disputes that he must tel me why God made the White people to be in Europe; he must tell me why the yellow people were placed in Asia and the East and why the Indians were put in India. He must tell me why the Maoris were put in New Zealand; he must tell me why the African people were placed in Africa. It was through man's doubted wisdom that man came together and what is the result of that? - Miscegenation and the emergence of a race which is today forming one of the greatest problems in this country. We don't want a repetition of that and an increase of that race. (Interjections) The African people were placed all over Africa, each tribe in its own area. The Xhosa - speaking people never went and occupied areas in the You know how they Transvaal, for instance . were scattered in the Cape Province , but most ironically and significantly we hear you people saying you want the whole of South Africa. When did South Africa ever belong to you in the Transkei? There are people in the various parts of South Africa, other racial groups , and they are seeing to their own destiny fortunately, and you are even opposed to us assisting our own brothers across the Kei. You oppose the amalgamation of the Transkei and the Ciskei and , ironically, you come to this House and you say you want the whole of the Republic of South Africa. What a fallacy ! What a platitude ! What a glaring inaccuracy ! Now yesterday I listened carefully when the hon. member for Dalindyebo, Mr. B.S. Mnyani said: Do you know how to get to Parliament in Cape Town? I thought today at least we have found a man who is going to extricate theOpposition from the six-year-old quagmire, but he failed lamentably.
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their purpose and their idea by saying: Let us take what we are given and use it to get what We ask the question: What do you we want. want? If ever the TNIP has shown the world what it stand for it has been through the utterances that have been made here during this debate on the motion of no confidence . Harried and battered by the vulnerable criticism of the Opposition, they have had to come into the open and say : We are not accepting "apartheid"; it is a springboard to somewhere . Where? - I ask the question. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Independence. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have accepted "apartheid" . Nobody said we hadn't. MR. GUZANA : If you think of independence as your ultimate goal you had better read your Constitution again, for the Constitution does not speak of independence - it speaks of selfgoverning Bantu national units . I ask the question: Who is the treacherous politician? I ask the question: Who is giving the dummy to the Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are .
MR. GUZANA : I want to know who is masquerading under the policy of "apartheid" for the sinister anti- Whitism which will not allow the Coloured man , the White man, the Indian to live in South Africa. Who can reconcile your utterances with the clear statement on " apartheid" that the races will be separated , that the races will have separate states ? We have heard from the Government side that even if we had a square inch, if we could crow loudly they would be satisfied because they would realise themselves in a square inch. I warned the governing side in 1964 that it has a "pondokkie " mentality which has become infectious and has infected each and every person who has joined the TNIP, and that nothing will save you from thinking with blinkered minds unless and until you stop paying lip- service to the policy of "apartheid". And what a conglomeration of people whose ideas , whose activities , whose allegiances are as far apart as the East is from the West! Let me tell you that your high- sounding phrases will not make us believe that West is East and East is West, and this all -embracive TNIP must make up its mind once and for all and tell the Transkei what it really stands for.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am surprised to find that the Government is preening itself on what it claims to be a successful debate to which it has contributed the substance of that debate , when throughout they have begged the question and have never at any time attempted to reply to the charges levelled against them by theOpposition. I suppose if you strike a cat on its head and it does not die immediately, you have to keep your hands away from it because it is vicious in its last gasp . We have had this exhibition from some of the members on the Government side who have revealed to us in a very clear way what they stand for, how they have negated even the policy which they say they stand for , how they have called the policy of separate development a springboard, how they have indicated their movement as a wagon that is rolling somewhere - but to nowhere . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : have a shock awaiting you.
You
MR. GUZANA : And they have invited all and sundry to climb aboard this wagon without a destination. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The destination is independence . Are you thick-headed?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : ment.
71 .
Separate develop-
MR. GUZANA: I have seen and I have heard the ovations that accompanied the maiden speeches of people who were erstwhile members of organisations that have been banned in South Africa as being vitriolic and altogether dangerous. (Laughter) These members have sought to fan the flames of Black nationalism or African nationalism , and there have been reactions from some of those who have been hiding under the table and not showing themselves as being pro-Black nationalism. They have claimed to be espousing the political ideals of men like Mr. Sisulu, Mr. Sobukwe , Mr. Mandela and others . I think they would cry with shame if they were to be associated with these mincing puppets when they think they are following their footstpes when they are not doing so. What is this political philosophy with which we are plagued here, coming from these ex- Congressites ? As early as 1912. Dr. Thema said there should be a place in the sun for the African but he did not say that the African should blot out the sun, otherwise there will be darkness.. The Congress has been characterzied by a moderation which embraces all racial groups and has conceded a place in the sun for all the racial groups in South Africa , but we have had some people who have aligned themselves with the African National Congress and when I remember the ages ofthese protagonists of what they allege are Congressite aims I see them as young upstarts who have joined Congress just about ten, twelve or fifteen years ago .
tion and you had better tell us where you are leading the Transkei. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : To independence . THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. GUZANA : If anything during this debate on the motion of no confidence , the TNIP speakers have eschewed the word " independence ". They have avoided it like the plague . MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What does the "I" in TNIP stand for ? MR. GUZANA : In 1963/1964 the cry was that we are going to have independence and we are going to get it. They were so full of faith that Mr. Sinaba realised he could not find independence within the confines of the TNIP , and his breakaway is a very strong criticism of your policy that you are going to achieve independence and reveals its hollowness , for if there was independence as a purpose and a goal then Mr. Sinaba should have found himself in good company amongst you. Unfortunately they get rid of one extremist and get other extremists into the TNIP. (Laughter) You make no selection and so long as a man can rouse the rabble you think he is good enough for the TNIP. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What do you stand for? Tell us that. Give us you policy. MR. GUZANA : And some of the members , because they were standing on the TNIP platform , are not attending this Assembly and we find that many more are going to find it difficult to tell the people what the TNIP stands for. (Interjections) Let us go to Mqanduli . Have you not been in Mqanduli throughout last year ? I gave you a clear field to carry on your nefarious propaganda . You called me names; you said all sorts of things about me , but what is the result? I have told you you are talking hot air. It was the intention of the hon. the Chief Minister to , as he put it , kill this snake by striking it on the head in Mqanduli , but if you have ever looked after stock and have come across a snake you do not lift your stick high in the air to hit a snake , for whilst you lift your stick the snake gets at you. And what did you
THE CHIEF MINISTER: To what organisation did you belong? MR. GUZANA: And when they joined Congress they espoused Pan- Africanism . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: And where were you?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA: They became youth leaders of Congress , and when Communism was banned in South Africa Congress made one with the Communists, made one with Coloured organisations, made one with Indian organisations , and these political colts in their susceptible stage of development embraced the ideologies of the Communists and other races and said : We shall speak as Congressites speaking for African nationalism . Many of them joined Mr. Lambede and espoused anti-Whitism and we are having it now coming out in this House when we are told that separate development and the policy of " apartheid" is merely a springboard. (Laughter)
do? Gallons and gallons of liquor flowed through the Mqanduli rivulets and rivers . (Laughter) You shouted aloud from the mountaintops that you were going to get the Leader of the Opposition out; you said he was a nuisance to you and yet I want to ask the question: What has this Government legislated upon, but the ideas of the Opposition? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Nonsense ! MR. GUZANA: Everything for which you take credit has been suggested by this Opposition. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Nonsense !
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. GUZANA : And you have said it, Sir, at the end of each session that the Opposition has been critically constructive . Were you a liar? (Laughter) If you were lying, Sir , I wonder if the Republican Government will not hear the rumblings of a big lie from you when you say you support "apartheid" and separate development? I was taken aback to find that the appointment of the Chairman of Clarkebury District was a political issue .
MR. GUZANA: Let me tell you that African nationalism will have as its component part exclusiveness , and you give a literal interpretation to the phrase which you so often shout aloud - Africa for the Africans ! (Interjections) You have visions of Kaizer Matanzima wielding a shambok and beating the Whites into the sea . (Laughter) You are really mistaken if you think you are going to hoodwink anybody in that direc-
72.
Who said it was?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What is wrong in a tribal democracy ?
MR. GUZANA: It is typical of people without argument to catch at any straw. (Interjections) They will take innocent actions on the part of other people and subjugate them to their own ideas.
MR. GUZANA : But it does not satisfy the wishes of the people .
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the people have told you they are satisfied. MR. GUZANA : It will not satisfy the urbanised African.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Typical of the Leader of the Opposition . That is your stunt .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : from them.
MR. GUZANA : If it must be known the appointment of the Chairman of the Clarkebury District is based on merit, just as the Methodist Conference has appointed an African as President of the Methodist Church of South Africa. (Interjections) I am ashamed of people who claim allegiance to the Methodist Church who seek to use the Church for political ends. We shall leave that subject because it is too clean to be handled by you. It has been suggested that the Whites in South Africa do not subscribe to the policy of multi- racialism and that no-one Now, the hon. the Minister will support it. of Agriculture and Forestry has just this day made an announcement negating your thought of separate development by telling us that a European concern in East London is going to establish a tea factory at Lambasi. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : say European?
You have no votes
MR. GUZANA : It will not satisfy even you , and if you want this homegrown democracy , if you want to develop according to your own lines , I hope this afternoon you will come in here with a loin-cloth round your waists ; ( Laughter ) that you will no longer pretend to be urbanised but rather move positively towards tribalism and heathenism . (Interjections ) If we have moved , we have moved in the direction of Western civilization. THE CHIEF MINISTER :
Never !
MR. GUZANA : And if you deny you are not a European in spirit, if you say that you are at heart of hearts tribal , then you must accept the accusation that you are educated barbarians . (Laughter) THE CHIEF barbarians ?
Did I
MINISTER :
Are the tribes
MR. GUZANA : There is a full realisation of the man who has migrated from tribalism (Interjections) towards Western civilization.
MR. GUZANA: You are not going to deceive us that there is an African registered company which is going to start that factory. And so you go on espousing " apartheid" and at the same time doing the very things opposed to " apartheid".
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA : There is greater fulfilment for his aspirations in Western civilization.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have a narrow view of separate development.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot call our people "barbarians " . That is an insult .
MR. GUZANA: You have contended that to allow Whites to come into the Transkei to establish businesses is to negate the policy of "apartheid" , but today you are espousing the investment of White capital in the Transkei . Where is the policy of " apartheid" ? Are we going to believe you? One of the allegations flowing at the Opposition is that it is attached to the Bunga system . I want to point out quite clearly that what the Opposition likes in the Bunga system is that it was a wholly elected body, and to abandon that body which was wholly democratic for a body whose majority is nominated is not a progressive step but a retrogressive step in the eyes of democracy. And when the TNIP says "Hurrah" for a body that is having a majority of nominated members , which body has legislative powers , then I say you are making a farce of democracy .
MR. GUZANA: And the majority living in the urban areas will not find satisfaction in the tribalism of the Transkei . They know they have moved away for better and not for worse . And don't make the mistake of calling these shadow leaders "Moses" if they have never seen a bush that was consumed by a flame but that never perished. The formation of the TNIP as a party is a consequence of the mind of the hon. the Chief Minister and if they were called Conservatives they could never have accepted that , because the father would have asked : "What now, small boy , what are you doing?" ( Laughter ) So they have to call themselves the Transkei National Independence Party , ignoring the principles of democracy that are the basis of a popular government. I take offence , and very great offence , when the hon. Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland becomes the object of critical comment here .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We have our democracy - African democracy . We are not going to imitate .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Did you know he is a chief?
MR. GUZANA : Yes, you have some sort of homegrown democracy or , shall we say , backveld democracy (Laughter) or sometimes shall we describe it as a tribal democracy?
MR. GUZANA: He is a figure who has dominated the politics of the Transkei for a period longer than either of you have done . 73.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : respect him.
That is why we
giance that some of you claim to these Congressites and other people , and probably some of you are just wondering if they have not talked too much or too far in this House . (Laughter) As they walk about they are constantly casting glances over their shoulders to see if their shadows are not following them (Laughter) - miserable specimens of humanity fearing to speak out clearly on the things that matter. You must concede that South Africa is multi -racial.
While some of you were MR . GUZANA : fiddling in Rivonia and plotting all sorts of things (Laughter) he was looking after the welfare of the Transkei . You will have to have respect for your leaders if you think you are going to speak for the people whom you allege you lead . THE CHIEF MINISTER : You must respect the chiefs have respect for the traditional leaders .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : presenting?
MR. GUZANA : I shall not take away my respect for the chiefs but I shall insist that the subjects enjoy democracy. (Interjections) I have told them time and again here that their place is in the upper house of chiefs and not in the elected House of Assembly.
MR. GUZANA : You consult the chief electoral officer to find out whom I am representing. Some of you walk into this House without opposition and you know you represent nobody because there never was an election in your area. (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : the chiefs "barbarians" ?
Who are you re-
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
Why did you call
MR. GUZANA : The African will continue to westernize and civilze and will continue along that road. He wants the skills and the know-how of the White man. You want them on your terms and you want to dictate . We want them on a co-operative and consultative basis.
MR. GUZANA : That is what you think. Let me read you what Dr. Donges had to say on "apartheid" : "It is not the ideal solution to the country's colour problem. Given a free choice the Government would certainly have chosen something else. " I ask you - here are people fastening to something that is transitory and for a moment....
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. GUZANA : We want to see the realisation of the ideals of honesty , loyalty and partiotism to an undivided South Africa , rather than to a Transkei " pondokkie" . How much you have frustrated our ideals by constantly climbing on a high pole and crowing " Apa- a-artheid, Apaa-artheid, Apa - a- artheid ! " ( Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Springboard! MR . GUZANA: .... holding on to it and saying this is the salvation of the African. And it is not a springboard because you will not jump until you are told to jump . (Laughter ) Here you are endorsing something which is of a temporary nature and you are being told by the protagonists of " apartheid" that it is of a transitory nature. People are calling people away from civilization, from urbanisation and saying: Go back and become savages . I concede that there must be zoos , but I do not accept human zoos , (Laughter) and we shall not allow this Government to make us specimens in their zoo. Let me say something as a last word in order that I give time for a division on this motion. So many of you have thought that to shout like the leaders of this banned organisation gives them some reflected glory. They think they will be popular if they say: I was with Sisulu; I was with So- and- so and So- and - so when they are doing nothing. Yes , people who are afraid to stand on their own and like to be shadows of other people . (Laughter) Let me tell you what Sobukwe once said and after I have read this you will have to walk out of this House : "We believe that everyone prepared to
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR . GUZANA : Ishall not have these PAC and ANC people masquerading under the colour of "apartheid" . I say quite unequivocally with South Africa behind me that this side of the House has no confidence in this puerile Government. OP POSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
one , including Europeans in this country. " (Interjections) And you have these men telling us that African nationalism is the standpoint of these men! You can deceive some of the people all the time ; you can deceive all the people
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon . members , before we vote on this motion I would like to draw the attention of the House to rule 93 which says : "When the Chairman or Deputy Chairman has put a question to the Assembly for its decision he shall call upon those in favour to say 'Yes' and those against to say ' No ' . " You will please mark that. We shall not use our hands to signify what we want as we did before . Then again I will draw your attention to rule 95 : " Whenever a division is demanded , the Chair , before instructing the division bells to be rung , shall satisfy itself that at least four members support the demand for such division. " Rule 96 : " If fewer than four members rise in support thereof, the Chair shall declare the resolution of the Assembly forthwith. " I shall therefore ask the Secretary to proceed.
some of the time , but you cannot deceive all the people all the time . Next year when I speak to this motion I shall go deeper into this alle-
THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. member for
-
accept and give loyalty to Africa is an African. Freedom for Africans means freedom for every-
74.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , there are more .
Mqanduli " That this House has no confidence in the Government", to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Chief Minister to delete all the words after the word "has " and substitute therefor the following words "full confidence in the Government" . I put the question: Those in favour of retaining the words embodied in the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN : Now please understand that those who want a division must show themselves so that I can see them . THE CHIEF MINISTER : "Division" , Mr. Chairman.
Five of us said
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think it would have helped my friends on the other side if you had asked them : Those who say " No" ; and then they would have said "No" with their hoarse voices ( Laughter ) and then probably we may have then called for a division and you would have had your four members calling for a division.
Excuse me , Mr. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Chairman, is it deleting the word "has " only or "no" as well ? Here is the proposed THE SECRETARY: counter-motion: That all the words after the word "has" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: "full confidence in the Government". Those in favour of retaining the words embodied in the motion?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Chairman had already made a decision that the Noes had it .
THE CHAIRMAN: The Noes have it. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we have already said that the Noes have it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Division , Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN: to want a division.
MEMBERS : Division ! The amendment for the deletion of the words proposed in the motion was carried by 68 votes to 24 after a division as follows :-
Only two members seem
YESES .
NOES .
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndama.se Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafini Mafukula Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndams.se Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Percy Ntibane Bulube Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr Sekake Moshesh Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko
TELLERS : 1. 2.
75.
L.L. Mgudlwa L.I. Cemane
Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enock ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Betros Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
THE SECRETARY : words "full confidence Those in favour?
I now substitute the in the Government " .
became critical. Approximately 132,000 head of cattle , over and above normal losses , have died as a direct result of the drought during The the period July , 1968 to March, 1969. position will deteriorate further as little growth of grass can be expected before winter sets in, with the result that stock will be exposed to severe winter conditions with limited grazing.
Agreed to. The motion as amended put and carried. The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m. In seventeen districts the condition of draught-animals was so poor during ploughing seasons that the Government was obliged to make credit available to farmers in order to have their lands ploughed by contractors at a rate of R5 per morgen. An amount of R576,000 has already been expended on this service from the Development and Reserve Fund and further financial assistance will have to be considered as farmers who reap poor or no harvests may find it very difficult to repay their outstanding loans before the next harvest.
AFTERNOON SESSION THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , we now come to item 6 on the agenda - the second reading of the Appropriation Bill , 1969. BUDGET SPEECH- 1969 Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of this House :-
Before I move that the Appropriation Bill for 1969 be read a second time , I shall , as is customary, make my budget statement.
Moreover, the amount of R201,000 voted under sub-head M of Vote 4 for 1968/69 for relief of distress proved to be insufficient and a further amount of R170,000 had , as a direct result of the drought, to be paid out during the past financial year on this service . The relief employment scheme is to be stepped up this year and I will ask this House to vote a sum of R850,000 for this purpose .
Development in the Transkei , especially development in the agricultural sector , has been dealt a severe blow by the worst drought ever It is common experienced in the territory. knowledge that the average annual rainfull for the southern and north-western part of the Transkei is 26 inches whereas the average for the calendar years 1967 and 1968 was only 18 and 16 inches respectively. Some districts had less than 10 inches of rain during 1968. Conditions were aggravated by a heat wave of intense severity and long duration with the result that, with the exception of a few areas situated mainly along the coast and in the mountains , the position reagarding grazing and stock drinking- water
From the printed Estimates which I tabled a few days ago members will observe that two new items have been created with a view to further alleviating distress in areas affected by the drought. I refer here to item M.2 . under Vote 4 where provision has been made for an amount of R3000,000 to be spent on a feeding scheme for children , and item H.8 under Vote 5
76 .
where an amount of R500,000 is required to supply fodder to the already depleted number of cattle . These schemes will no doubt be dealt with in detail by my colleagues the Minister for the Interior and the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry when they deliver their policy speeches and no further elucidation is therefore necessary at this stage .
sary legislation for amending the Transkei Pensions Act , 1965 , will be introduced during this session. The concession to social beneficiaries will involve additional expenditure amounting to R225,00 per annum . I come now, Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , to a matter which affects each and every able-bodied citizen of the Transkei , namely taxation. Let us consider the question:-
MR. Chairman, the sum of R1,650,000 which will come into circulation during the current financial year, as a direct result of the measures taken by the Government to alleviate distress , wil be to the advantage of thousands of Transkeian citizens and I trust that they will show their appreciation for the steps taken by the Government by increasing their productivity when employed on relief works.
"Why do we have to pay taxes ?" A famous author once wrote :-
"All State action costs money , directly or indirectly. Expense governs everything. Finance may therefore be said with truth to be the foundation of government in the sense that ways and means be found for everything a government desires to do . "
As a result of the very generous additional sum to be received from the Republican Government this year in terms of section 52 ( 1 ) (d ) of the Transkei Consitution Act , 1963, it has also been possible to make a few concessions to pensioners and civil servants .
Government is empowered to levy taxes in order to obtain funds to render services to its subjects. Every subject is expected to contribute towards his own needs and development .
As you are aware , Mr. Chairman, Iannounced in October , 1968 , that the Cabinet approved of the improvement of the key salary scale applicable to established posts in the Government Service, the upgrading of certain senior posts , the laying down of a uniform higher minimum salary for graduates of either sex, the improvement and extension of the daily wage scale of labourers , etc. - all with effect from the 1st October, 1968, and that a non-pensionable vacation savings bonus , equal to 8 % % of the basic annual salaries , limited to R200 and R100 in the case of married male and single officers respectively, will , subject to the availability of funds , be paid annually to officers holding prescribed posts in the Transkeian Government Service as from the 1969/70 financial year. Provision for all these concessions has been made in the Estimates for 1969/70.
In the Republic the whole question of a revision of Bantu taxation and a more efficient system for the collection thereof was gone into very thoroughly by an Interdepartmental Committee in collaboration with the Commission which enquired into the fiscal and monetary policy in South Africa. This Committee recommended inter alia that the Transkei Government should be consulted before any of its other recommendations are finally implemented. This was done with a view to avoiding, if possible , dissatisfaction and confusion which might result from there being, for example , different tax rates and bases of determining taxable income etc. for the Transkei on the one hand and the rest of the Republic on the other. The necessary consultation took place and in the Republican Parliament an announcement has already been made regarding a new taxation and Pay as you Earn system for Bantu persons .
In addition to the aforementioned concessions I have pleasure in announcing that the pensions , allowances and bonuses payable to Civil and Social pensioners will also be increased with effect from 1st April , 1969 in order to bring such benefits into line with those paid in the rest of the Republic.
With so many of our taxpayers working outside our borders it would be folly not to bring our taxation into line with that which will shortly apply to Bantu persons who are not Transkeian citizens. I propose therefore to introduce legislation to this effect viz . ( a ) to reduce with effect from the first of March , 1970 , the basic general tax from R3.50 to R2.50 per year and (b) to introduce a new and more comprehensive scale for Additional General Tax which, being essentially a tax on income , will be the same for men and women regardless of age and (c) for other incidental matters such as a P.A.Y.E. system .
These concessions embrace the following:The means test and means limitation for the award of temporary allowances and bonuses payable to civil pensioners of the pension funds administered by the Department of the Interior has been abolished with effect from the 1st April, 1969 and the bonus addition to their basic pensions has been increased by 5% of the basic pension payable to them. In addition a temporary allowance of R15 p.m. and R10 p.m. will be paid to married and single civil pensioners respectively, from the same date .
Tax evasion, Mr. Chairman, is a matter to which I have repeatedly referred in previous budget speeches and which has been the cause of much concern. I warned last year that if the campaign to collect arrear taxes and my appeal to the tax evader did not have the desired effect, more drastic measures would have to be resorted to. Although there was a marked improvement the position is still far from
Social pensions in respect of Old Age , Blindness and Disability are also to be increased by approximately R3 per person per year with effect from the 1st April , 1969 , and the neces-
77.
satisfactory and I have decided that for the collection of the Additional General Tax and for the collection of arrear basic General Tax a system of P.A.Y.E. should be introduced at the earliest opportunity . This will be done in collaboration with the Republican Government in order that the proposed scheme can encompass also employers of Transkeian taxpayers outside the Transkei .
Payment of the basic general tax for the 1969 calendar year and of the additional general tax based on income for the 1967/68 year of assessment became due only on the 1st of January this year which means that revenue collections can continue in the normal way during the course of the current calendar year. The basic general tax which would under the present law have become payable on the 1st January, 1970 in respect of the 1970 calendar year will in terms of the proposals become due on the 1st March, 1970 and additional general tax will become deductable from income earned after that date. There should therefore be slight slowing down of tax collection during January and February next year and possibly a drop in the March figure also because of the delay in transferring P.A.Y.E. collections to the Revenue Fund .
The arrear amount due by Transkeian taxpayers in their home districts in respect of General Tax (excluding Additional General Tax) amounted to R5,464,500 as at 30th September , 1968. This figure represents an average of R19 per taxpayer which means that the average taxpayer is in arrears with his tax commitments for at least five years. Members will agree that this state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue . The taxpayer must realise that the Government cannot perform its functions with insufficient funds and that failure to pay taxes not only restricts the development and progress of the Territory in general but also retards such essential services as education, social welfare , road construction, etc.
In the years that follow there should theoretically speaking be a considerable drop in revenue from this source but it is hoped that in practice reduced tax evasion, a greater willingness to pay the reduced basic tax and the increase in additional general tax will compensate for this.
I propose applying to the Republican authorities for a pro rata portion of the new sales tax which has been introduced and if they agree , the revenue loss (if any) should be more than wiped out.
My Department has already requested all Receivers of Revenue in the Transkei to leave no stone unturned in their efforts to collect current and especially arrear taxes and to counteract tax evasion in their districts . Itrust that I can count on all the members of this House to assist the Government in this important matter by prevailing on the people in their respective constituencies to meet their tax obligations in order that the tax backlog may be wiped out as soon as possible . No tax evader can ever be regarded as a dedicated citizen of the Transkei .
The P.A.Y.E. system can, and I think you will agree Mr. Chairman , bring to those who are liable for additional general tax advantages too obvious to mention while everybody , especially the poorer section of the population, will find considerable relief in a basic tax reduction in excess of 30 %. Details of the scales for the new tax will be tabled directly.
I may mention that the Republican Government is taking steps to exempt all Bantu persons , including Transkeian citizens , from the payment of Income Tax and Provincial Income Tax. This step should however have very little effect on our revenues because Additional General
Let us , Mr. Chairman , turn now to the Government's financial position as reflected in the Estimates of revenue and expenditure for the current financial year. I shall deal first with the expenditure side .
Tax has in any case up to now been reduced by the amount of Income Tax collected from a taxpayer . Abolishing normal income and provincial income tax will mean that to a large extent the revenue which was derived from Income Tax in the past (approximately R6,000 p.a. ) will in future find its way into the Transkeian Revenue Fund in the form of Additional General Tax.
Members will observe that I have budgeted for expenditure totalling R23,570,000 which figure represents an increase of R3,593,000 or 18% on the amount voted last year. If we analyse the services for which the money is earmarked we find that an amount of R14,448,200 or 61 % of the total estimated expenditure is required for the payment of salaries , allowances , bonuses , social benefits etc. This amount is arrived at as follows :-
Very little exists by way of statistics on the various Bantu income groups and it has been very difficult to make anything like reliable estimates of the effect on revenue which the taxation proposals will have . It is estimated for the current year that General Tax will yield R1,990,000 . Of this R190,000 represents additional general tax . These figures are based on the present scales of taxation because as I said earlier on, the new scales and the P.A.Y.E. proposals will become effective only on the 1st of March, 1970 , i.e. the first day of the 1970/71 tax year. Revenue for the present financial year and continuity in collections will therefore not suffer too much.
(a) Salaries , wages , allowances and vacation savings bonuses provided for under subhead A of the six Votes ....... R 8,107,500
78.
(b) Salaries of members of the Legislative Assembly (Vote 1.F. ) ......
102,000
(c) Salaries , presentations and rations to Chiefs and Headmen (Vote 1.J. ) ...
216,700
(d) Social pensions (Vote 4.F. )
3,190,000
(e) Rand-for-rand and other contributions to pension funds (Vote 4.G . ) ..........
348,000
(f) Civil pensioners ' allowances and bonuses (Vote 4.H.)..........
12,000
(g) Salaries , wages and allowances of officers and employees holding non-prescribed posts and of approximately 14,000 labourers , provided for under other sub-heads than sub-head A.........
An additional sum of R1,507,000 , of which R500,000 will be spent on the fodder scheme already referred to, is to be voted under Vote 5. An amount of R318,000 , which is an increase of R77,000 on last year's figure , is required under item F.1 . for the purchase , installation and replacement of plant, machinery and equipment. A fully automatic compartment type kiln is to be purchased for use at the logmill , Mount Ayliff, where 100,000 cub . ft. construction timber will be produced annually. The forestry branch also requires a new motor grader , light railway . material, fire fighting equipment etc. whilst tractors , ploughs , trailers , planters and disc cultivators are required by the agricultural section for cultivating an additional 850 morgen of land on the Qamata Irrigation scheme. The additional sum of approximately R250,000 requested under item J.2. of the same Vote will be utilized for the provision of domestic water supplies in residential areas . A firm of consultant engineers has already been appointed to assist the Department in this important project. It is anticipated that it will take four or five years to complete the scheme as an average of 3 additional water points are to be provided in each of the 360 administrative areas . Sub-heads L and M mainly provide for maintenance , labourers ' wages , the purchase of creosote etc. and require no further elucidation.
2,472,000 R14,448,200
The total amount of R1,277,000 provided under sub-heads B, C , D and E of Votes 1 to 6 is required for general administration and management purposes. An additional amount of R81,000 is, for example , to be spent by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry on motor transport sub-head B.2. - of which R11,000 is required for transporting sawn timber from the new logmill at Langeni plantation. The provision under Postage , private post-bags and postitem C.3. boxes · had to be increased by R49,000 as a result of the passing, by the Republican Government, of the Post Office Re - adjustment Act, 1968, in terms of which the postage on mail matter posted by all Government departments and Provincial Administration has to be paid at the public tariffs.
I may mention in passing, Mr. Chairman , that an amount of R400,000 has also been made available to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry from the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund for the erection of a tea factory at Lambasi . The tea project is well under way and tea produced in the Transkei will be marketed towards the end of the year.
All the services provided for under the five sub-heads dealt with so far are , of course , of a recurrent nature and members have no doubt already noticed that expenditure thereon is increasing steadily from year to year. This trend can be regarded as a sign of progress as the Government requires more personnel , telephone facilities , stationery, transport etc. each year for carrying out the functions and activities entrusted to it.
The increase of R212,000 under Vote 6 , which amounts to only 4% of the sum voted last year , will mainly be spent on the construction , maintenance and repair of roads and bridges and for the purchase of plant, machinery and motor vehicles . In 1964 the Department took over 317 vehicles from Republican departments , the Cape Provincial Administration and the Transkeian Territorial Authority. The number of vehicles has since increased to 559 and a further 14 new four-wheel vehicles and 25 motor cycles are to be purchased this year whilst 70 vehicles have to be replaced.
I shall now refer briefly to a few of the remaining sub-heads in respect of which the amounts requested this year differ appreciably from those voted last year.
Good progress is being made with the building programme and as can be seen from the particulars reflected under sub-head J of Vote 6 the Department of Roads and Works expects that 22 of the 42 major works appearing onthe Estimates will be completed during the current financial year.
The provision under sub- head G of my department's Vote has been increased by R44,000 as it is anticipated that R94,000 will be spent during the current financial year in planning and developing the Bisi and Ramahlokoana townships at Umzimkulu and Matatiele respectively .
As mentioned before the total estimated expenditure for 1969/70 amounts to the record sum of R23,570,000 and I shall now explain from which sources this expenditure is to be met. In doing so I wish to invite the attention of Members to the Estimates of revenue appearing on page 32 of the printed Estimates .
Several new schools and four new hostels are to be opened this year and an additional sum of nearly R50,000 is therefore requested under sub-head F of Vote 4 to cover the purchase of furniture , equipment, provisions etc. In addition some 150 primary schools and 49 secondary schools are to be equipped with science and/or biology apparatus whilst R1,300 is required to equip the laboratory at the Umtata Technical College.
It will be observed that although the revenue from our own sources has increased by more 79.
than R million we are financially still very dependent upon the Republic . Apart from the normal annual grant payable to the Transkei Government in terms of section 52 ( 1 ) (c) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , the Republican Parliament has appropriated an additional sum of R4,750,000 · which is nearly R2,000,000 more than the sum received last year · towards the services of the Transkei .
any other day. If I heard you correctly, Sir, you asked for a seconder and you put the second reading. May I request that this be regularized by you, Sir? My silence on this side was as a result.... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : "Agreed" .
You said
MR. GUZANA : I did not. My silence was as a result of a previous discussion with the hon. the Chief Minister and our agreement was in accordance with the rules , so that I was rather taken aback by the procedure .
The total revenue to be received during the 1969/70 financial year is therefore estimated at R20,344,000 which means that expenditure will exceed revenue by approximately R3,226,000 .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was right. I found out after I had already done that that it was an error so, hon. members , we shall just ignore that error and follow the right procedure.
The actual balance of R3,906,000 in the Exchequer as at 31st March, 1968 , was R893,000 higher than the estimated figure of R3,013,000 as quoted in my previous budget statement. This increase together with an estimated saving of R1,254,000 effected during the past financial year plus an estimated increase of R601,000 in revenue from local sources for the same year, means that the balance in the Transkeian Revenue Fund as at 31st March, 1969 , will be in the region of R3,267,000 .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : man.... MR. GUZANA :
Mr. Chair-
There has been a ruling.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , we want to know what was recorded by the stenographer because to my own knowledge it was agreed.
If the estimated revenue for 1969/70 amounting to R20,344,000 is added to this balance we find that there is an amount of R23,611,000 available in the Transkeian Revenue Fund from which to meet the estimated expenditure of R23,570,000 .
MR. GUZANA : Sit down. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The motion was put and it was agreed. You said " Agreed " .
I am therefore budgeting for a surplus of only R41,000 at the close of the current financial year .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I just ask the House to condone my error. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, this matter is going to waste our time and it is very simple . It is just a question of knowing what is written and whether it should be condoned.
Mr. Chairman, I trust that the proposals for expenditure as contained in the printed Estimates for 1969/70 will meet with the approval of this Assembly. I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , for your attention and I now move that the Appropriation Bill for 1969 be read a second time .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am made to understand that I adjourned the House before it was written down , so it has not been agreed . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the debate on the second reading of the Appropriation Bill be deferred until tomorrow morning at 11 a.m.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the taxation proposals referred to in my budget speech which, in terms of rule 145(b) , stand referred to the Committee of Ways and Means.
THE CHAIRMAN : Our next item will be motion No. 10 by the hon. Mr. N. Jafta . MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman, I beg to ask the House to allow me to withdraw this motion.
Hon. members , after THE CHAIRMAN : listening to the budget speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance , we shall adjourn and resume at 4.15 p.m.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. Agreed to.
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT OPENING UP OF ERVEN IN TRANSKEI MUNICIPALITIES FOR PROSPECTIVE BANTU PURCHASERS
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was a bit nonplussed by the procedure just immediately before we adjourned at a quarter to 4. My understanding of the rules . relating to financial bills is that when the budget speech has been completed the Minister responsible proposes the second reading and then the debate shall be adjourned to a day following or
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my motion is that of requesting the Provincial Administration to cut up portions of municipalities in the Transkei into erven for the purpose of prospective buyers of
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erven enumerated in Schedule A of this proclaIn other words, these commonages mation. are declared Black and without prolonging my address on this motion I think even the members across there will continue enjoying the fruits of the achievements of this side of the House. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
these erven for occupation. I dare say, hon. members, that immediately there was this proclamation allowing for the zoning of these towns in the Transkei it was as gracious as rain on dry land to the African people . Our African people , some of them, are now in a position to put up substantial modern buildings to beautify the Transkei. Some of them have managed to have some money saved despite the meagre salaries they have been earning. It is common fact that because of the policy of separate development the African people are precluded from having any title deeds in the urban areas of the Republic. If one takes leave and goes to places like the Transvaal one would be impressed by the beautiful buildings in Dube, Nelspruit and elsewhere , but unfortunately those houses are put up on ground that does not belong to African people . Now a chance has come for such people who have some money to come down to the Transkei if this is their place of domicile and they have the right to take up big portions of these municipalities for the purpose of putting up buildings. The intention of this motion, hon. members , is that (to give an example ) in places like Cofimvaba where I come from this portion of the residential area can be extended so that people who can afford to buy plots of land should do so as soon as possible. These people will have freehold rights . In some of these towns in the Transkei , Mr. Chairman, you find a big commonage. I am not a person who is against grazing of stock, but I also feel that I am not interested in the franchise of cows but of the people of the Transkei. On that account the people who do not own landed properties in the towns and who desire to own such properties should be able to buy and possess such properties . My purpose is that these towns will continue to grow much bigger than they are now. The people who wish to lead an urban life must be enabled therefore to buy properties in these areas and other people who want to live in the rural areas and own stock may still do so. In other words , if such measures were to be adopted this would be attractive to many Africans in the urban areas who are reluctant to come back to the Transkei , even for industries in the Transkei. We have men such as the one in Idutywa who have actually proved what an African man can do with his money. The trading store which he built with his own funds is not inferior to any one in Idutywa . In fact, as it has been built on modern lines it can be ranked as one of the best in that town of Idutywa. There are similar houses also in Idutywa and many other towns in the Transkei built bythe African people . As one drives out towards Qamata through Cofimvaba village there is a beautifull house which has been built by one of our prominent Africans there . It only shows that if more land can be given to the people we can beautify and give a complete new look to the towns of the Transkei . Apart from residential areas this again will give us an opportunity to have business centres extended . It is on that account that I am trying to make it clear that it is our desire to have these commonage areas increased . To refer to Proclamation R. 336 of 1965 , you will remember that that proclamation declared all the 23 towns of the Transkei open for occupation by the Bantu people, with the exception of certain
MR. A. RAZIYA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER : don't want zoning.
But you said you
MR . RAZIYA: In supporting the last speaker I want to say I am very happy that he has come back from the rivers and dongas. (Laughter) The motion on which he is speaking just now is my motion which I brought before this Assembly in 1967. The purpose of my motion then was in consideration of the needs of the people . I know the Government side agrees with us in our policy. I am not at all afraid of this because I know the chiefs as a rule are like children. They are children of the land. What brought me to the idea of this motion was my discovery that the XDC ask for a value far above what can be considered by the African people. THE CHIEF MINISTER : your motion?
What happened to
MR. RAZIYA : I was told by the mover of this motion how he was cheated greatly by the XDC out of his money and it was that that made me introduce my motion in 1967 when he told me he had paid R4,000 and before he knew where he was he was told the figure had risen to R8,000. (Laughter) That shows how hard it is on our people. As a businessman I shall not say much about the XDC but I could say quite a lot. I am not afraid to speak. I would like to teach you because you are merely echoing caves. If you wish to put up a residential building in the municipal areas you have two things to consider : Firstly, whether you will build and complete the structure that you are proposing to put up; and secondly, when the building becomes your property you may then go to the Bank and put this building of yours as security with the Bank or to secure a loan from Today, anyone who may lend you money. however, whatever residential buildings we may put up in the areas we have are completely valueless . You can get nothing for them . You may be in debt to the extent of R10 and you may find it increasing despite the fact that you have a substantial building. What is the reason? This echoing Government. They don't do anything as regards the buildings you may have , such as organisations like the building societies before they had to cease operating in the Transkei. I do not know what the people have to pay as rates and taxes. (Interjections) My hon. friend across the floor asks what we did and whether people who lived in the locations did not get title deeds in the locations . Here is the difficulty: If you desire to have title deeds to your property in the location you have to pay rates and we find it difficult to meet those rates. I want to make it clear that getting title deeds is not an easy matter.
81.
converts on the other side , and we shall expect to see them in future discussions in this House and we hope in their discussions they will say that this is one of the advantages they derive from separate development. I remember the word still echoing in this House when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition said " Never , never , never will we have these towns zoned " , and the member at the back echoed that " Never , never" .
CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order I would like to know whether the speaker is supporting or opposing the motion. MR . RAZIYA : I am trying to make it clear that the person who sees things differently and who is not necessarily echoing what other people say has hardly realised that people cannot get their rights and privileges . (Interjections) We actually proposed that the commonage be cut into erven and on that account we cannot oppose this motion which was our own motion. We wanted it just like this and at the time you opposed it, you echoing caves. (Laughter) You actually stand in the way of people and you don't want them to make the progress they desire . We are still watching closely what is happening at Norwood . (Interjections) I thank you for bringing up this motion and I will advise the people in the location to buy the erven you are referring to today.
MR. GUZANA : I said you could not zone that is the point. them MR. MADIKIZELA : We have been referred to the fact that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition himself has a beautiful house in Ncambedlana for which he has title deeds , yet on the other hand he does not allow the other people to acquire their own property. In short, Mr. Chairman , to cut a long story short, I think I have done a very great service in being instrumental in getting our people more erven, and just because the Opposition opposes this matter in a joke , I also reply to them in a joke . He refers to my elimination from the Cabinet...
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Sit down.
MR. GUZANA : MR . GUZANA :
You are out of order now.
This is not a party matter . MR. MADIKIZELA : You started the ball rolling. He forgets he is the man who did it because this is a democratic institution. He says that chiefs are dictators in this House and when he was given a chance to return me to the Cabinet he did not exercise his democracy.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, according to a gentlemen's agreement, when a member of the Opposition has spoken a member of the Government side has got to speak.
THE CHAIRMAN : Quite right. MR. GUZANA : We offered you nomination and you refused . (Laughter)
MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is not in fact much to be said on this motion except that I see the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has been converted to the truth this afternoon and the extremist businessman at the far end of the House seems to support the motion. However , just as a matter of formality I want to support the motion seeing that it has been in fact provided for in the original proclamation when the towns were zoned , and unfortunately some diehards on the other side opposed the zoning itself.
MR. MADIKIZELA : Well , you could have done it by democratic means. You had the papers there and you elected the wrong man and I never told you I was not available . (Laughter) So, Mr. Chairman , I just want to prove how inconsistent they are on that side and I can assure him , although he says I have been relieved of my arguments , that he had better wait and see . We have still five years to go and before I retire I will have him on this side , if not out of the House .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Hear , hear . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I would just like to find out from you if there are any more who wish to speak on this motion.
MR. MADIKIZELA : Since then, of course , plenty of water has flowed under the bridge and they have seen the advantages to be derived from zoning . Although it is a few years since zoning was effected , it would appear that not meny of the Bantu have availed themselves of the opportunity of buying properties and one reason is the extremely high cost of the buildings on the erven available , coupled with the dilapidated state of the properties concerned , and so this would be a golden opportunity for our people to invest their money in sound projects on their own initiative . I believe that is one of the most outstanding achievements of this Government and if I had spoken on the no- confidence vote I would have mentioned this matter. I wish then, before I sit down, if any members opposite are going to speak to know whether they accept or believe in the zoning of these towns , which, of course , is the embodiment of the policy of separate development. If they do we have a few
I should like to say a few MR . GUZANA : words , Mr. Chairman.
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 2nd May , 1969 .
FRIDAY , 2nd MAY, 1969 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER :
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Mr. Chairman and
under this head than is provided for at the present moment. The Government has also undertaken a feeding scheme and the principle of feeding children is a welcome one indeed , and this scheme will include , or will extend a benefit to children attending school and children who are not attending school , but we would like to see the scheme extended to include all the districts of the Transkei rather than have it limited to what are regarded as drought- stricken areas . I think the motivating factor behind this scheme is to fight deficiency diseases such as Kwashiorkor, to build up resistance in the bodies of our young folk in the Transkei , and I think the Government is aware of the fact that this condition is prevalent throughout the Transkei , whether there be drought or no drought. I commend this suggestion to the Government and feel that it is a justifiable extension of the service to the health of the people in the Transkei generally . I agree with the Government that the people should increase their productivity when employed on relief work, but I think the Government should exercise some supervision over the use ofthese funds which are made available under this head. The work done under this head is work which seeks to benefit the public , but I know of cases where people are drawing from these funds and are employed to clean round the chief's kraal and to cut the grass round the chief's kraal . I know of a case where the chief claims to be the foreman when these people are working on this relief work and draws the 25 cents a day. (Laughter) I know of people employed under this head who are making bricks to put up kraals for chiefs . In view of the fact that relief work is work done for the benefit of the general public, I think this is a misapplication of these funds and that is why I call uponthe Government to exercise some control over the way in which this money is used. Now, it is possible for the Opposition to welcome this statement about laying down a uniform higher minimum salary for graduates of either sex and the improvement and extension of the daily wage scale of labourers without knowing exactly what it means in rands and cents . It is hoped that when the Public Service Commission tables its report we shall see what adjustments are made and that they will be welcome ones . The Government has also accepted the principle of paying out non- pensionable vacation savings bonuses ; the Government has also agreed to drop the means test and means limitation in respect of temporary allowances and bonuses payable to civil pensioners. We welcome these changes in the financial policy of the Government in these respects. We notice that social pensions are going to be increased by approximately R3 per person per year. This works out at 25 cents per month. Now that is a very disgraceful addition and altogether unnoticeable. How can a responsible Government speak of giving relief in this direction and only add 25 cents per month? We would like to see the Government increase that amount considerably. The Government has , as I said at the onset, undertaken to review the whole question of taxation in the Transkei and the hon. the Minister of Finance has tabled taxation proposals in respect of persons earning wages and salaries . In the preamble to this frightening table indicating robbing the public of its earnings ,
hon. members , I lay upon the table Government Notice No. 22 dated 30th Agust, 1968 , regulating leave of absence of chiefs and headmen. ANNOUNCEMENT
THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been informed that it may be possible to arrange for members of the Legislative Assembly to be inoculated free against Hong Kong 'flu. In order to investigate the possibilities members should indicate to a messenger who will be sent round whether they wish to be inoculated or not. ·
APPROPRIATION BILL
SECOND READING
The debate was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, my general reaction to the budget speech is that of welcome and congratulation, with a few reservations here and there. I think the Department of the Chief Minister has at last decided to take the taxation bit between its teeth after the last general election, and we wonder whether or not they would have been courageous enough to do so if their majority had been reduced. Sir, I first of all wish to refer to the assistance which has been given to the farmer in the Transkei. One cannot help but realise the fact that stock is the financial bank of the African in South Africa and in the Transkei and that bank has become insolvent as a result of the drought conditions which have prevailed for , I think, two years in the Transkei , and any Government which saves its banks when they go bankrupt is bound to recommend itself to the public but not its policy. I must say, however, that the number of head of cattle lost could well have been reduced considerably if the Government had initiated this scheme much earlier , regard being had to the fact that the Department of Agriculture and Forestry must have been studying the position very closely and should have anticipated this heavy loss. However, it is better late than never and the Government is strongly encouraged to save no money and effort in order to protect whatever stock has been saved up to now. We can see visibly the effect of the drought upon the people of the Transkei. The Government is to be commended for introducing relief of distress amongst the people. I am sure the Government is aware of the fact that as a result of the sales tax , whatever relief it gives will have to be reviewed in order that that relief can practically be enjoyed by the citizens of the Transkei. Working these figures down to the individual benefit it comes to 25 cents a day per person on relef work. Now this was the amount made available under this head before the drought hit the Transkei . Their distress has been aggravated now by the continued drought and also the fact that they have to pay this sales tax, and the 25 cents has not been adjusted upwards sufficiently to meet those financial obligations which have arisen as a result of the drought and as a result of the sales tax. We must remember that the Government is looking forward to taxing these people too under the tax bill and we feel that greater relief should be extended to the people 83.
there is a suggestion that this is going to be subject to definitions , conditions , exceptions , limitations and exemptions which are to be provided in an Act to come . My inquiries have revealed that the Finance Department is not at this stage able to give us details as to how this table is going to operate , and probably we will be putting the cart before the horse if we begin a critical examination of this table . My request at this stage is that we should be given advance copies of this bill long before it is introduced in this House so that we study it well in good time , so that we know what to say about this new form of taxation. At face value there is going to be relief which will be extended to the wage-earner. General tax is going to be reduced to R2-50 as from the 1st March next year, I think, and I have a vision of the hon. the Chief Minister addressing everybody and saying : This Government is good to you · we have reduced the taxes . (Laughter ) But what the Government is going to lose on the swings it is going to make up for on the round-abouts . Unfortunately , the majority of the electorate in the Transkei will fall under the group that is going to benefit and it is only the minority which will fall into the group that is going to suffer and pay through its nose under these tax proposals . There have always been outstanding amounts of general tax due and payable to the Government over the years. This is a very sad state of affairs and I agree entirely with all who feel that there should be a positive effort to collect these arrear taxes to make funds available for essential needs and services in the Transkei. I have also wondered whether or not the estimate under this head of expected income is really the true reflection of amounts outstanding. For instance , what system is followed in accounting for moneys collected in the Republic , sent direct to the Government and notices sent to district centres ? It is possible to estimate that so much is still outstanding when, in effect, money has been paid in but advices have not been sent in to district offices . I have this critical comment to make further that this Government is always plagued with surpluses . Estimates for certain works will be submitted to this House and the money is
years with no legal provision for the auditing of their books ? I want to state further that this report of the Auditor and Controller -General indicates that public moneys have been misappropriated. It also indicates that the Vulindlela Furniture Factory has not been able to submit statements of account for the financial These are irregularities in year 1966/1967. the handling of the finances of this Government. CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to ask the support of the House in saying that the moneys have been properly appropriated. It is usual that when a jackal enters a home the smal dogs start barking. We have a couple of those mongrels barking now . Mr. Chairman , allow me to say that when this Assembly was established we were al unanimous and we then elected a Chief Minister because we saw in him a reasonable man. When a child is born to a father , the mother first gives that child a name and subsequently the father gives the child a name. Daliwonga ! The way in which he has used these funds shows that he has followed his name. I want to say I know some people are careless about money , but money is the foundation of a nation. Some people try to save money but they spend it unwisely and sometimes a man who is entrusted with keeping trust funds appropriates these moneys for his own use . In these last years the hon. the Chief Minister has showed himself a trustworthy person and one who can be entrusted with public money. I think we are all agreed on that point. Let us now come to the question of expenditure and consider the matter of roads in the Transkei. There has been a great improvement in the construction and maintenance of roads in the Transkei during the last five years and those who some time ago owned motor- cars are now able to drive right through to their homesteads as a result of the assistance received from the Government. Anybody in the Opposition who criticizes our roads does not know what he is about. Only a dishonest or disrespectful person will criticize the expenditure on our roads . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition said that money is used in cleaning up the homesteads of chiefs , but that money is used to help aged and disabled people in getting a little money. People who criticize the use of this money will not be returned to this House . Let us come now to the important matter of education . At one time the Government had the important step of employing married women teachers , the reason being that there were widows and others were not adequately supported by their husbands . These same people campaign now for the employment of women whose husbands are in employment thus making the lot of the unfortunate women worse . They realise that that step was unfair and now when all the women were disbanded the Party was blamed. The Government should be commended as far as education is concerned because these women whose lot is hard have been employed again. You must not again say that a woman whose husband is working and supporting her is not being supported, because we are a Government and should introduce legislation. I say the Government should be commended for returning these people to employment . Let us now come
paid back as surplus , these services not having been rendered as previously directed by this House . For instance , the surplus which is to be surrendered for the year 1967/1968 amounts to R1,728,845-65c . Why should this be happening repeatedly over the years ? This is on page 8 of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral. We feel that this is a reflection on the financial administration in the various departments and we feel that if we have got to approve estimates this year, the money must be used for the purposes for which it is intended . Then again, we have an extraordinary statement on page 23 of this report under Regional and Tribal Authorities . Here the Auditor advises us that regional and tribal authority funds and books have not been audited and he makes this statement O that there is no valid legal provision existing in terms of which he is empowered to audit the accounts of these bodies . What gross negligence over the last five to six years ! He states that the matter is receiving attention but are we going to say we have had moneys appropriated to these authorities for the last five
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to the establishment of secondary schools . It has been a great worry for our children who proceed to places outside the Transkei for their education, but now the Government has established secondary schools in the Transkei and it has expended money to put up primary schools in the Transkei. Any sensible person will see how these schools have been built. They compare favourably with schools built for European people . (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, I will not take any notice of this mongrel next to me. What I admire most is the way the expenditure has been handled and the surplus that has resulted . It has been a great worry to me to think the money has been exhausted and that there will be no surplus , but those people who are wasteful will not appreciate what I say. I was very pleased to hear the hon. the Leader of the Opposition himself say that the money has been properly appropriated. To show that he supports me he has come to sit next to me. (Laughter) I do not want to waste your time over this, Mr. Chairman, but I hope you will continue to use the money in this way because, as I said, quite a number of people misappropriated public funds and I see today that my friend next to me is supporting me in my statement that you have appropriated the moneys properly. I was as a veteran of the House , with members like the hon. Chief D.D.P. and others who were responsible for the establishment of this system . I hope you will go further in developing credit societies . There should be no argument because all the revenue will be properly appropriated .
practice was to give help to the rehabilitated areas first, as a result of which these tractors were very late when they got to unrehabilitated areas. The people who have accepted rehabilitation and those who have not accepted rehabilitation pay the same taxes and the same commitments to the Government. Why were they not given the same privilege ? We are happy and we congratulate you for increasing relief assistance . We would, however, like to say that the people who suffer most from starvation are the crippled people who are unable to work, but we are told that this relief work is extended to those who are able to do a little work and who can be employed . This makes it clear that those who are altogether unable to work must suffer and quite possibly die as a result. Can the Government not find ways and means of helping such crippled people?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We have the disability grants from the Department of the Interior. CHIEF NDAMASE : I quite appreciate that you have those moneys available even when there is no drought, and the difficulties and hardships This is one are aggravated by the drought. of the questions asked of the people who are on the waiting list for old age pensions. They are asked by the magistrate : " Have you not And the old woman replies in a got a son?" trembling voice : "Yes , I have a son" . The magistrate then says : " Go and ask your son to support you. That is the custom of your people. " We have cases of elderly ladies who are supported by their only sons working in the mines who , if the son dies and the lady claims the money due to her son, is told she cannot have it. This makes it clear therefore that the custom of our people is only appreciated if the Government wants money from them, but when compensation is claimed then we are told to revert to the practice of the Europeans .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a few comments relative to the budget statement of the Government of the Transkei. The hon. the Minister of Finance mentioned we have had a severe drought in the Transkei. The reason why we have suffered this drought is to a large extent due to our not using the water resources of the Transkei. Even during this drought several of the rivers of the Transkei had plenty of running water . Only a few of them ran dry. If the Government were to join hands with the Government of the Republic and try to preserve some of the water in the rivers running into the sea, much of the effect of the drought would have been avoided. A Japanese businessman visiting the Transkei said he had not seen a land with so many rivers as the Transkei. I wish the Government would take note of this . We were given an approximation of 132,000 head of cattle which have died in the Transkei. Yes , they died as a result of the drought, but if you take note of the effects you will realise that this loss of stock is an annual occurrence . One of the causes of this heavy loss of stock is the fact that in rehabilitated areas there are not sufficient dams to provide drinking water for stock. Cattle as a rule, even though they may have very good grazing, require water to drink. Even in those areas that are not yet rehabilitated , the cattle require plenty of water to drink as they graze . We commend this to the Government. The hon. Minister referred to the use of tractors to assist the drought- stricken areas of the Transkei . I can say without reserve that we are grateful for that. Whilst we are grateful for this, we would like to point out that the
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: do you suggest on that point?
What
CHIEF NDAMASE : I advise that whatever compensation is payable should be made payable to the dependants of the deceased . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No , don't run away from the point. What do you suggest should be done ? CHIEF NDAMASE: The hon. the Minister of Finance says he is preparing to provide stock with fodder. We shall not talk much about that as we have no knowledge whatsoever of this projected scheme. Let me ask , however , now the Government realises we have had rains , the ground is soft, the grass is green and the work can be done more easily, and the people can grow fodder for their stock , what steps does the Government intend taking to supply seed for food to the people who own stock? I ask this because I think what the Government is going to do is to cut the veld at Lambasi . I may say, however, that the chief at Qaukeni will not agree to that as the grass will feed the stock at Qaukeni and he will start first by feeding the stock of his people at Qaukeni. He will not
85.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You will have a chance of discussing it in committee .
allow any grass to go to Qamata. (Laughter) The hon. Minister has also referred to the fact that they will raise the salaries of the workers . This is a long overdue proposal. We realise , however , that you will continue to copy what the Republican Government does.
CHIEF NDAM ASE : As I study this paper, according to the proposals he makes the tax we have to pay has been increased by a certain percentage .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We rasied them from the 1st October last year.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That was not This will come up in in the budget speech. committee.
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Although we know these salaries have been raised we do not know by how much and we are waiting to see. We are told the pension payments will be increased by R3 per annum , which means 25 cents per month per individual. During very difficult times such as we are undergoing now, could this not be rasied to R6 ? The hon. the Minister of Finance mentions that it is necessary to make people pay their taxes . We agree whole - heartedly that the people must be taxed , but we would like the Government to stop telling the people to support him and promising them he will grant them privileges . We would like the Government to say people should support the side that is truthful and the side they feel will help them. When the Government says the people must support them it means they are trying to bribe the people with their own taxes. That is not a very good thing and it is a thing that was done by someone in the Bible who said: If you worship me I will give you the whole domain; and he was referring to land that belonged to the Father of the Man to whom he was speaking. There has been a reduction in the basic general tax by the Republic and in the Transkei also it has been reduced, but there is a difficulty especially with regard to local tax. The people pay local tax, but only people who have a home site allocated to them and who have an arable plot should
CHIEF NDAMASE : principles.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , those are details . CHIEF NDAMASE : We are happy to note that although in the past you did not follow the PAYE scheme introduced by the Republic , today you wish to impose that scheme in the Transkei. It is quite clear therefore that we really lead you and you have all the confidence in us. (Laughter) You say you have budgeted for R23,570,000 and at the end of his speech the hon. Minister says he will have a surplus of R41,000 . It is evident therefore that you have taken all the surpluses of previous years right up to the present to make up the R23,570,000 , but we were hoping you were not going to use the surpluses but would ask for a grant direct from the Republican Government, because we always have these surpluses on account of a number of developments which were not catered for in the Transkei. On that account people ask if the Government does not care to have these developments in the Transkei . If you turn to the Estimates you will find on page 5 , Sub-head J, Salaries , Presentations and Rations to Chiefs and Headmen. Under paragraph 1 the scale is put down as R176 x 16 - 448. The chiefs deny that there is a R16 increase . However, we think the Government is responsible and it cannot give a statement that does not accord with practice.
pay the local tax. The people contend that they should not be made to pay local tax until they have been provided with a site for a home and a plot to plough. Again , as regards this general levy , a difficulty is experienced by the taxpayer in the Transkei . People go to the work centres , say in Johannesburg, and the money is not taken when they go to pay their tax. Can the Government not made ways and means of making the money payable in Johannesburg? This is a request from the people in the work centres , that the Transkei Government and the Republican Government should come to an agreement about it . The hon. the Minister of Finance asks people especially to pay their arrear taxes . I think that is the work of headmen and of messengers of the court.
MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in supporting the budget speech made by the hon. the Minister of Finance , I wish to draw the attention of members of the House , on both sides , to the privilege afforded all of us to listen to such clear and efficiently tabulated details of the financial position as read by the hon. Minister. It is obvious to every one of us that he has taken all the necessary pains and care in the preparation of his budget so that we should not hesitate his efficiency for his portfolio . With regard to the part played by the drought to the livestock , the agricultural operations and the hardships which the people have suffered have been met with praiseworthy efforts , as you can see from the estimates of the moneys voted by the Government to assist the farmers in the Transkei and the supply of tractors to plough the land at the rate of R5 per morgen. This is a healthy sign that the Government is aware of all the complications that come to its people . I find the hon. the Leader of the Opposition also agrees with the Minister of Finance , but he makes a few remarks against him. We are all aware that though a thing may be good there may be a few things bad about it that we
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are irresponsible . CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. Minister says I am irresponsible . I hope he knows that we don't want the people not to pay their taxes . We want them to pay them . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : people .
We are discussing the
Tell your
CHIEF NDAMASE : There is an additional tax which he has placed before us which he hopes to place before this Assembly, and he has given us this table of proposals . 86.
should ask him if he has read Mqayi's book in which he said that people who complain will never cease to do so. Iftaxes have been reduced people at home will rejoice. These people who criticize the Government and what it is trying to do should realise that only those who earn money should pay taxes. (Interjections)
can find, but the members of the Opposition will always try to find fault with everything in the House. I agree with the last speaker that tractors were given to the Transkei farmer, but I disagree with him when he says they were only given to rehabilitated areas . In our district all locations , rehabilitated and unrehabilitated, were supplied with tractors. While we consider this question of tractors , Mr. Chairman, we must always remember that even when you plough with your own oxen sometimes you do not finish ploughing in a day. Sometimes the time is up before you finish the work. It is the same with the tractors . They were doing the work but the time was up before they could complete it. We must refer again to this question of relief work amongst the distressed. I am surprised to find that there are people who do not appreciate this kind of assistance....
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. REVE: If you should attend any meeting in the district from which I come you will be asked by the people where you come from. After listening to what you say.... (Interjections) Order, order. THE CHAIRMAN: members , please stop this noise.
Hon.
MR. REVE : We hope that in time to come , as taxes are reduced, the general tax will ultimately be done away with. This House should be thankful to the Government because all cultured races do not accept that taxation should be imposed on people who cannot afford it. Taxes are paid by those people whose income allows them to do so. (Interjections) We ask the hon. members of the Opposition not to stand in the way of this work. They will know that when people in the rural areas are told about certain matters.... (Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBER: Who said so?
MR. REVE : ....because in the locations I could see that those beneficiaries were pleased to get even the very little that they could get. We all know that half a loaf is better than no bread, therefore if the distressed were helped in some way or another we should appreciate the Government for what they could do. Now the Government tells us that there is an increase of R3 per year per person in this relief, but our hon. friends across the floor seem to cry for an increase in this amount. I wonder how they would meet this expense, because if you take milk from a clabash there must be some remainder. (Laughter) If you take out all the milk you will have very poor milk the next day. (Interjections ) I am aware that my voice is weak but it is true. I also wish to commend the Government for the reduction in taxes to the people, but the hon. members across the floor will not compliment the Government and sit They will say something against the down. Government.
MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I will not talk about arrear MR. REVE : taxes because everybody knows what happens to a man who does not pay his taxes. MR. GUZANA: What has happened to you? Have you paid your taxes?
MR. REVE : The hon. Minister has applied to the Republican Government for a pro rata share of the new sales tax and if he is successful in this effort we should not fear any shortage. Now, let me mention a few points about agriculture. The figures voted for this year , 1968/1969 , show an increase of R1,507,000 . Now you can see that our Government is very careful about agriculture and forestry. From these funds the Government will be able to see that during the time of drought some amounts are voted to releve such occurrences . There are also improvements in planting such crops as tea and coffee , as you see in the Lambasi area. We hope the Government will perhaps increase these crops and add sugar to the plantations if possible , because I think we spend more on sugar than on these other crops . When I look at the estimates voted for each department I see they differ in amount according to the importance of each department. I see the Department of Education and the Department of Agriculture and Forestry have been voted more than the other departments. I would request our friends in the Opposition not to worry the Government about things when they see this budget statement is correct, because when once they see that the budget statement is a good one they must wait and see. What you are doing is worrying the Government and criticizing things that are being done , and that is just raising dust. The people will be surprised when they see you making such interjec-
MR. K.M. GUZANA: We have got to point What is the matter with you? out defects .
MR. REVE : Of course the people on the other side will not be satisfied with anything that is done. We asked many of their followers during the elections and they could not even tell us the Opposition's policy. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we note with utmost appreciation that the financial year 1969/1970 has the good hope of increase of pensions and allowances . They have increased civil and social pensions in order that these should compare favourably with those in the Republic. I take it that the Government has compared these with the funds available for this and therefore I do not see why there should be any complaints from the opposite side about these estimates. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. REVE: Let me now come to taxation in the country. Our taxes have been reduced considerably. Now we know that our Opposition Leader remarked that there would be sufferers in this respect. When I reply to his remarks I
87.
I hope we should forgive our friends tions . across the floor because they are like young boys with their boyish pranks . Now, coming to the Department of Education I will not say very much about that because most people have seen the steps taken by the Department of Education. You see that the number of schools has increased and the number of teachers has also been inNewer school buildings have been creased . erected and the estimates show that this money According to the has been spent properly. estimates for 1969/1970 you can anticipate that more improvement is coming on ahead. We have got many secondary schools now which we never had before . Before this Government took over all of you had to send your children to far-off institutions to get a secondary school education, but now they get their education nextdoor to their homes . You must remember , Mr. Chairman and hon. members , that we cannot all get secondary schools in one day. Important things happen step by step . You must only learn to crawl after you have learnt to sit. You cannot run before you can walk. ( Interjections) It is a pity the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was so far from my place , because I would have taught him at school.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: then .
MR . ZIBI : O.K. , we shall now try and cut our suit according to the material we have at our disposal . I must start off with the contemplated projects that are going to be put up at Bisi in Umzimkulu and Ramahlokoana in Matatiele , and the question immediately is : What is going to be done about Port St. John's ? You are meeting the demand in Matatiele and in Umzimkulu because they are supposed to be White spots . What about the White spot that is Port St. John's? (Interjections) Now let us examine the position at Ramahlokoana . The planning is being done and naturally that place is expected to be inhabited by human beings. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : pected - it will be .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : say they wanted to live in a township ?
Did they
MR. ZIBI : If my information is correct it is because in that area there is a shop bought over by the XOC which at present is isolated.
MR. REVE : You will notice from the budget speech of the hon. Minister that he has budgeted for an amount of R23,570,000 which shows an increase of R3,593,000 over the amount for the previous year. These amounts have been spent, or will be spent , on salaries , wages , allowances for chiefs and headmen and members of the Legislative Assembly.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : area?
Which
MR. ZIBI: These people are being taken to that spot so as to be able to patronize that store .
The debate was adjourned . Assembly adjourned
Not ex-
MR. ZIBI : But before this is undertaken we are seeing some insidious removal of the potential inhabitants of that area from the spot near where this town is going to be put up. These people are being removed a few miles away towards what is to be known as St. Paul's Mission.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the Leader of the Opposition should resume his seat if he is making interjections .
The
Resign,
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have not been there . until 2.15 p.m. MR. ZIBI : I have been there . I have always complained that until I am convinced to the contrary the XDC is introducing in the Transkei some commercial communism .
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on the second reading of the Appropriation Bill was resumed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : commercial communism?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have listened quite attentively to these , His Master's Voices , and all I wish to do is to appeal to these people to stop telling us what the hon. the Chief Minister has already told us in his second reading statement. We are today placed in a very , very awkward position of having to cut our Government to size . My worry is that when the Republican Government decided to embark on this scheme of Bantustanism , one promise was that they would finance the project as much as required . Is it the Transkei Government refusing to get more money from the Republican Government , or is it the Republican Government refusing to give us more money? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION:
What is
MR. ZIBI : It is when a government body runs what should be private enterprise . That is what it is . If my information is correct those people are going for the convenience of the owners of that shop . What is going to happen to the township now? And I would like to know from the Government when those townships have been put up , what is going to be the policy of this Government? (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , you are making too much noise. MR . ZIBI : Are they going to give first preference to the people who are the inhabitants of the place or are they going to allow any tycoon from any other area to run businesses in that area? I would be happy to know that. I would like to lay stress on the question of the
Both.
MR . ZIBI : Then if it be both , as the hon. Minister says , it is not working. 88.
means test which is in operation in respect of the people who are getting those awards from the Government. As there has been a change in the Ministry of that Department there may also be a change of heart in regard to the means test. I am reminded of cases where people
pay for the previous month had been received. Then all we are saying to the Government is that they thould see these things are carried out. However, with the material at our disposal perhaps this is the best that can be done .
got these awards before the inception of the Transkei Government and I do not want to think for a moment that the Republican Government at the time , in granting these , was senseless but what has happened ? It is that the Transkei Government deprives some of those people who were given those grants by the Republican Government before the inception of the Transkei Government. Was it perhaps that there was no means test at the time ? The chiefs , the headmen these people are in the administrative areas aware that their relations with their people are strained as a result of this thing. The headman makes a recommendation through the chief to the magistrate and it is turned down with the usual excuse : Have you no son to work for you? You are not very old - can't you work? Have you no livestock? - and so on. And if the chiefs want to tell us today that the position is not as I say it is, then they should be able to tell their subjects what they think about it. There is also the question of the use of tractors in the administrative areas of the Transkei . In certain areas the magistrates have been emphatic in telling the people that no location, unless it is rehabilitated , will ever have the privilege of using these government tractors . There are certain tractors in these areas that are privately owned and government money was used to pay for the ploughing of land in the rehabilitated areas , and there were statements that if ever they ploughed for people in the areas that are not rehabilitated there would be trouble . Now, what about the shortage of water? If you go to our secondary schools today, there is a great shortage of water , so they need water facilities . To go further, in the rehabilitated areas - even there you find that the promises that were made when they were trying to urge the people in those areas to accept rehabilitation , that water facilities would be provided , have not been carried out and nothing has been done about it, to say nothing, of course , about the areas which have not been rehabilitated . What I want to know is to whom those people belong, if not to the Transkei Government, because it is always said : Rehabilitate first and all these things will be done. There is the question of taxation. I believe , if you remember , though of course I know the idea came from the Republican Government, it was a member from this side , Dr. Bala , who spoke about the present system of taxation as suggested .
MR . SEKAKE MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am thankful that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition commented favourably on the appropriation of money by the Transkei Government. I regret, however, to discover that his supporters are opposing and contradicting what he said . It occurs to me that the Opposition members even when they are shown which direction to take will stand in opposition to their director . Their aim is merely to oppose even when there is no cuase to do so. This budget
MR . T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: now? (Laughter)
has proved without doubt that it is most acceptable and the big mouths of the Opposition should speak quietly because the tax which they told the people would be increased has been decreased, and I think the people have discovered that they are not telling the truth . The finances have been expended most carefully because there is not a single resident of the Transkei who was forgotten in the process . Even your own stock was considered. You hon. members of the Opposition ought to be very, very grateful . My friend, the hon. chief from the Ngqeleni district , said that the Government has a surplus of R41,000 and it appeared that he was not impressed by that. It is from that that he maintained the budget was built. If the Government had not been as careful as they have been , where would they have found the suplus to feed the animals during this drought ? Is it because you do not think there are unexpected and unforeseen needs that should be catered for? Iliken you to children who are satisfied when they see a dish of food in front of them. Even whenthe father says they are suffering from famine , they do not realise there is any famine because they are enjoying the dish in front of them , whereas the father sees ahead. I am sorry that the hon. member for Maluti is not here because he opposes the removal of the people from the area which they inhabit to an area to support the shop bought by the XDC. ( Interjections .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MOSHESH : He does not know anything about that area because he lives in Johannesburg . There is a store owned by a Bantu close to that area, a man who will be supported by his own people who have been sent to live with him. They will be settled in a very beautiful grazing area and with beautiful plots of land . He referred to the people who were deprived of their pensions by the Transkei Government. He is not aware of the fact that time and again the people are being examined to see whether the receivers of this pension fund are still alive , and that is constantly being carried out. They repeat again and again that the Government does not carry out certain things in certain areas , such as providing the people with tractors for ploughing. Would a tractor be sent to any area unless an application had been made for one ? When has the Government ever done things unless application is made for them? Why are we not grateful as we realise that a little at a time things are
Where is he
MR. ZIBI: There is the question of those people on relief work. If you visit these works you find some poor women labouring to dig up roads. Some of them are really expecting, and the idea is that they are trying to make provision for themselves and at the end of the month no pay is forthcoming. Up to when I left my area, for example , people had been waiting for about two weeks of the new month and no 89.
being improved in the Transkei ? Since your brith when have you ever known of sick - bays in the schools ? If you look at Vote 6.B, Tsolo area , you will realise that the Government is straining every effort to put us on a par with the Europeans in this country .
costs money, driectly or indirectly. That ought to educate you to full knowledge . Can you tell me , now that you are struggling to be a government, how can you be a government if you do not know how to use money? How can you be a government if you oppose the money that is put before you?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Do you want that? What about separate development?
MR. K.M. GUZANA: But surely we have not opposed the money?
MR. MOSHESH : In every effort as shown in the budget the Government proves that they are using every possible means to make available the same privileges for the Bantu as the Europeans have. I wish you would stop just opposing and state facts as they are . When, before the advent of the Transkei Government, have you ever known the people's stock fed by the Government? This is not a small matter which the Minister of Finance has achieved. Nothing pleases us more than what we heard from the representative of the Republican Government. That ought to make us feel very proud when he commented favourably on the manner in which the hon. the Minister of Finance spends the funds of the Government. Who among you would like to be told of the failings of your child ? Why are we not happy to discover that our responsible Minister of Finance has executed his duties as successfully as he has done ? Take note that people outside the Transkei comment favourably about him . That is proof that in future we will improve more while he remains Minister of Finance , seeing that he has done what he has done . I mentioned that you oppose any and everything. You even find fault with the good things and this has put us far behind all the other races . People who live in the municipal location are far better than you are because when they demand their rights they are unanimous . You pull one way and others pull the other way like dogs fighting over a bone. When shall we make the advances and progress
MR. MOSHESH : My dear friend , let me tell you how money is used. Let me tell you how the Government works. First , you should accept and then bring out your complaints about the moneys, but if there are no complaints he cannot improve things because the people are satisfied . I heard one of the speakers saying the Government did not accept the levies . It grieves me because the speaker is a chief and a learned chief. A levy is a voluntary tax , something which the people impose upon themselves . They are not forced into it by the Government. It was originated by the Bunga. It belongs to this room only and by that I mean the 26 districts of the Transkei . How does the Government come into it? MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , looking at this budget speech , a great deal of ground has been covered by those who spoke, in particular by those on the Opposition side . I will not repeat what has already been said but will only touch here and there on certain points. Firstly, in connection with tractors and fertilizers , I beseech the hon. the Minister of Finance to consider closely the position of people who are insolvent. For two years they have bought and realised nothing . All they bought was on credit and that means an accumulation of debt for them . That is no little matter and the Government should consider the situation. Remember also that as far as taxation is concerned you stated that there is about R5 million which has not been collected. It has been stated that these people purposely avoid paying their taxes .
we require whilst you continue to be as you are ? The things that are placed in front of the hon. Minister here come from the doings ofthe people from the municipal location , not from you who deceive people without knowing the facts. You oppose everything, even the good things that are put before you. You are waiting in expectation of a rise in your stipends. Why don't you attack the Minister for raising your stipends ? You know all about these things because they help everyone . You ought to be opposing even the increase in your own stipends . All I can say is that the day you go to Heaven you will still be opposing. ( Laughter) When the minister is delivering his sermon you oppose him because you are so used to opposing. My advice to you is: Let us fight for our rights and be free from the position we now hold. Let me say again : Why don't you realise how lucky you are , because only yesterday you were given this bread but you did not realise how much bread you were given. Did you ever have a thorough analysis of the expenditure of moneys and services such as we have today? You are opposing even the taxes which are imposed, whereas you know these taxes come to help you. I am sorry because you did not study this budget speech, but you merely came here to oppose it. On page 9 the hon. the Minister of Finance stated that all state action
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is the teachers , clerks and salaried officials in the service who do not pay. MR . JAFTA: It is true that there are some people who avoid payment of taxes , but the majority of the people have no money with which to pay taxes. We would then request that this There are question be carefully considered . many invalids who have been registered for taxation. These people are not able to work and so raise money to pay taxes . These people are the sufferers from TB , malnutrition and people who have no- one to support them. I pray that such a position should be carefully considered by the Government. You must remember that the people whom you lead are most of them poor. Another heading I wish to touch on is in connection with schools . The Government has set aside a sum of R1,600 for the erection of Classrooms. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where do you find that money mentioned in my budget speech? That is a matter for you to raise when 90 .
the Minister speech.
of Education gives
his policy
the Government with regard to the increase of R3 per annum to the social beneficiaries , I wish to inform him that this money is not paid to anybody as of right. It is merely to assist those people who are not in a position to assist themselves and unless the Opposition puts forward a motion that the taxes should be raised in order to meet these liabilities , my Government is not in a position to spend more money than it has in hand. You have a lot to say against the Government when it comes to the question of spending money and it has been characteristic of the hon. member from Ngqeleni to tell us that we should ask for more money from the Republican Government. Now I am challenging any one of you to tell me if, before the establishment of the Transkei Government , you knew how much money was spent on your services in the Transkei , and if you can tell me that you know how much was spent on your services before 1963, then tell me how much it was. I am happy to tell you that the Republican Government is spending towards the services ofthe Transkei almost one -third of the amount that they spent towards the services of the African people in the Republic as a whole. Now you should be very thankful for the amount of money that is paid by the Republican Government towards your services , rather than claiming that we should ask for more money. Already I have informed you in my policy speech that the Government had doubled the amount of money that it had always given. The trouble with you is that when you realise you are ignorant fools you decide to criticize everything, even if it is There is nothing good in your a good thing. A sensible man has told you there can eyes . be no criticism against this budget, because it is a good budget .
MR . JAFTA: We would request the Government to consider this matter because this amount is insufficient for the erection of one classroom . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : the principles of my policy speech.
Deal with
MR. JAFTA: Our African contractors find difficultry in getting work and when they are in the middle of working they find they cannot proceed with their operations. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: There is nothing about that in my budget speech. MR . JAFTA : We request that moneys contributed towards the building of schools should be increased so that school buildings can be completely erected . This is of vital importance because the hon. the Minister of Finance spoke at length about the erection of schools and the public respect what has been said by a great man, and they ought to do so . We appeal that this question be considered . Even if you say I have mentioned something that is not in the budget speech, you must realise that I have said something that you actually said . I do not want to say anything further because all the other matters have been dealt with. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I intend to close the debate because it is quite clear that you are flogging a dead horse and the Opposition are merely repeating themselves. I wish to express my appreciation to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for the remarks he has made with reference to my budget speech. If his followers listened to him when he said he welcomed the speech and congratulated me for the manner in which I had dealt with the finances of the State , I do not think they would have worried themselves by saying all the unnecessary things they said this afternoon. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made very important remarks which should have indeed come from a man of his calibre with regard to the financial assistance which has been given to the farmers by the Government. He also commended the Government on the relief measures that have been applied, although he said that the sales tax might bring some hardships on the people and the Government should therefore consider increasing the amount which is paid to the worker per diem . With all due respect, I want to point out to my hon. friend that the Government is working within the financial means at its disposal. We cannot budget for the country for money that we have not got in hand. It will be appreciated that the Government has put more money towards social services this year than it has ever put in the past. If you turn to page 1 of the Estimates you will find that the amount that is to be spent this year is R5,018,000 , whereas during the financial year 1968/1969 it was R3,862,000. Now that very increase itself should be appreciated by any reasonable man. The same applies to education and also to agriculture . Now, with regard to the criticisms that he has laid against
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, according to the rules a member shall not use offensive expressions about the conduct or proceedings of the Assembly. Now why does the hon . the Chief Minister use such offensive language , because it is uncalled- for , in fact. I would that in fact he withdraws from what he said. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : May I proceed, Mr. Chairman? Now, with regard to the indictment of the hon. member across the floor about the Government not having introduced the taxation bill sooner , I wish to refer him to rule 145 (d) , which reads as follows : "If the report is adopted the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall request the Minister to introduce the necessary bill or bills to give effect thereto and the Minister shall have leave to introduce such bill or bills forthwith or on a future day. " Now with regard to the wages of the labourers , these were revised in order to take effect from 1st October, 1968. The revised scales are as follows :- A labourer starts with 60 cents rising by 5 cents to R1 per day. Now that is the position today , and it is the second time that the Government has made an increment in the wages of the labourers . (Interjections ) So you can see that the Government is doing everything to improve the lot of the Transkei citizens . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with those remarks I wish to say I do not see there is any need to
91 .
MONDAY, 5th MAY , 1969
reply to any of the other nonsense. In regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Ngqeleni in connection with the construction of dams , I think he will get a reply in due course from the responsible Minister. I was pleased with his remarks when he asked why people are not growing their own feed for their livestock , but unfortunately he is saying that to the wrong people. He should have told the people of Ngqeleni to plant feed for their cattle and, in fact, all of you across the floor must do everything possible to try and interest your people in their own development. All you can do is to come to the Assembly and discuss matters in which you have no interest. For a whole year you stay away from the very people who have sent you here and towards the end of the year when you are about to come here to get money, you think about representing the people . I have noted the remarks of the hon. member for Qumbu and I wish to tell him that I always take an interest in his addresses because he is a very reasonable man. I wish the other members of the Opposition would try to emulate him even if they are not in a position to reach his standard. He is always of great assistance to the Government. When we have to consider these matters we always consider the plight of the poor people and that is why we pay them invalidity grants , because we want to see that they can meet their obligations . But the insolvent people are responsible for the position in which they are . A man becomes insolvent because he incurs lots of debts .
MR . K.M. GUZANA: subject, please?
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to remind hon. members that they should observe time and to remind each member that he is required to be present for at least three hours a day in order to get his allowance . It is a very bad thing to see a large number of members absent in the afternoons . This will lead to the retention of the allowances of those members who fail to keep the three -hour rule . Will hon . members please take note of this. OPENING UP OF ERVEN IN TRANSKEI MUNICIPALITIES FOR PROSPECTIVE BANTU PURCHASERS The debate was resumed. Mr. Chairman, hon, MR. K.M. GUZANA : members of the Assembly, I think although it is not necessary for me to address paramount chiefs I shall continue to do so. ( Laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Not necessary? MR. GUZANA: Yes. Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the motion by the hon. Mr. T.E. ka - Tshunungwa from Cofimvaba has been seconded by a member of the Opposition. I merely wish to make a few comments which might enrich our knowledge round this question . We must remember that whenever people acquire properties within a municipal area or a VMB area they become liable for service charges and rates in respect of those properties . My experience of these rates and charges is to the effect that they are very high indeed and that whenever we think of Africans acquiring immoveable property within VMB or municipal areas we must take into account the fact that Africans do not earn sufficient to meet these rates . Even if a plot is undeveloped, the owner is still liable to the municipality for service charges and rates. I want this point therefore to be borne in mind when the Government seeks to implement the substance of this motion. Most of the towns in the Transkei have been zoned Black or partially zoned Black and one wants to ask the question as to whether or not those areas already zoned Black and which have been developed have been bought up completely by Africans . You see , the Government will not cut up new plots unless and until there is a demand due to the fact that all properties already surveyed for sale to the public have been taken up, and we may very well get the reply that the zoned areas have not been wholly taken up by Africans and that there is no need to zone the commonage. This is not a question of policy - it is just hard commonsense , that is all. It is the intention of this Government , under the so- called policy of "apartheid" , that
Shall we change the
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : All right , but I am replying to the hon . member. He cannot call on the Government to come and assist those people . He must try and pay his accounts or call on his friends to come and assist him . In any event, there are hardly any African people who have been declared insolvent. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : solvent.
They are all in-
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, if you say "poor" I can understand, but not insolvent. With those few remarks , Mr. Chairman, I move that the bill be now read a second time... THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to.
The bill was read a second time . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The committee stage of the bill, Mr. Chairman and hon. members , will be on Tuesday morning at 11 , in order to allow the hon. members across the floor , if they have any amendments to make , to make them. I now move that the House adjourn until Monday morning at 11 .
these towns will ultimately be Black. However ephemeral that dream may be , let us speak in Those Africans who will occupy its context. these towns will still require the commonage for grazing purposes....
Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 5th May, 1969. 92.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : the motion?
nonsense . I hope the Government will bear in mind these observations when it seeks to have Thank you, Mr. this motion implemented . Chairman.
Are you opposing
MR. GUZANA: ....and therefore we must bear this in mind whenever we seek to have the commonage cut up and ask ourselves the question: If the town is occupied wholly by the Africans, where will these Africans graze their stock? The townspeople THE CHIEF MINISTER : are not farmers.
THE CHAIRMAN: to say in reply?
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in fact it is needless for me to say anything at this stage . My chief supporter was a member of the opposite side . I gave all my facts in support of this motion and I can sense from the very atmosphere of the House that everybody is in favour of it. The utterances by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition are noted and all we have to do , Sir , with due respect, is to try as much as possible to see that these areas are extended to afford residential areas for the African people . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA : There is justification for a commonage round the town and therefore we cannot argue that because Africans will occupy these towns then there is no justification for a commonage . THE CHIEF MINISTER: no commonage.
Johannesburg has
MR . GUZANA : You are not going to have Johannesburg all over the Republic. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I can tell you that the townspeople are not farmers.
The motion was put and carried unanimously. ESTABLISHMENT OF VILLAGE MANAGEMENT BOARDS BY BANTU
MR. GUZANA: The hon. member for Umtata, Mr. Raziya, indicated that these properties do not seem to have commercial value in terms of the zoning proclamation. I say so because immoveable properties owned by Africans cannot be mortgaged for loans from financial bodies ....
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my motion is quite clear , that the Government should request the Provincial Administration to allow the establishment of Village Management Boards by the Bantu in all the towns which have been zoned Black. I feel, hon. members of the House , that the time has come when we should have Village Management Boards of African personnel in these towns . In those towns which are partially zoned Black, Africans should be co-opted to the VM Bs for the purposes of learning administration. For instance , let us take Cape Town. We have the town council of Cape Town, then we have the Coloured community represented in the council of Cape Town. I do not think there is any law which forbids Africans from serving in the VMBs or councils . Well , we do not want to encourage our people to contest seats in these councils , but through diplomatic negotiation with the powers that be we would like a gradual takeover by the African people . We do not want any chaos , any disturbance of racial feelings, but as time goes on we feel that our people are ready to serve their people inthese councils . A scheme should be born whereby the African people should be brought into the administration. Let us come to a place like Cala, which is in my region. The position there , Mr. Chairman, is chaotic. The town is completely Black. In fact, we have now more African people as property-owners in Cala. (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They can. MR. GUZANA: ....unless and until a permit is obtained from the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development . THE CHIEF MINISTER : They can from the Xhosa Development Corporation. The only body which can MR. GUZANA : advance moneys is the Xhosa Development Corporation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes . MR . GUZANA: But the question again is: Why should the XDC have a monopoly in that line of investment? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You must establish your own building societies. MR. GUZANA : We have looked into the mouth of the XDC and have seen its fangs which are most discouraging indeed, and I would ask the Government therefore in motivating this motion.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, he must come to the point.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA : In a place like Tsomo we have read from the papers recently that only 17 White people are still resident in Tsomo. (Interjections ) The Provincial Administration appointed a certain European to be in charge of Tsomo village . We are opposed to a system where you have one man acting as dictator over our African people . In fact, this Mr. Hempel says in no uncertain terms that he will never leave the Transkei . Does it mean then, Mr. Chairman, that if this Mr. Hempel ,
MR. GUZANA : ....to seek an amendment to the zoning proclamation al owing people to mortgage their properties with all financial bodies as selected by the individual concerned. THE CHIEF MINISTER:
Has the mover anything
That will be the day.
MR. GUZANA: You want them yourselves , because you are giving them an opportunity to develop a tea factory at Lambasi, so don't talk 93.
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What do you think I meant when I said "where the towns have been zoned Black" ?
who is a trader , has made up his mind never to leave Tsomo he will be the ruler of all the African people in Tsomo? I do not say Mr. Hemplel must go , but in the very near future we will have to say : Go , Mr. Hempel . (Interjections)
MR . GUZANA :
That is not in your motion.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : argument .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
I said it in my
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
Here is another MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: thing about Tsomo. There is a sports field at Tsomo. I remember very well in the past Africans used to play on this sports ground . Today the ground is overgrown with grass , trees are growing on the sports field merely because Mr. Hempel will not allow the Africans to use this sports field . (Interjections )
MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, I shall not be very long on this amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Have you got any facts at all ? MR. MAJIJA : The purpose of this amendment is to the effect that in all the towns partially zoned for Africans or wholly given over to Africans , there should be representatives of the African people in the Village Management Boards . I think I had a very similar motion or amendment last year . The people who live in these municipal areas are in a multi-racial society . They live , both Black and White , in exactly the same manner ; they buy from the same business houses ; they use the streets of the towns , one group like the other without any demarcation for Black or White . We learn that in Germany there is a Berlin Wall separating people of the East from those of the West. In this country we have not got anything similar to the Berlin Wall . All that is said is that the town is zoned , or partially zoned , or wholly given over to the Africans . The Black people drive along the same streets as the Whites . Similarly, in the Bantu locations we have streets where the Bantu drive their cars . Yes , the regulation at the present moment does not forbid Africans from being represented by their own people on these boards , but in actual practice this is not the case . We would like it definitely stated in the regulations that in zoned or partially zoned areas there must be African people representing their own and the Whites representing their own in the Village Management Boards. Even in the zoned areas we would like the Africans and Europeans to live harmoniously together At for the common welfare of their town.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please , hon. members . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: So , Mr. Chairman, the African community of Tsomo - people who have bought properties there and who should enjoy the facilities in Tsomo - are just stopped by this Mr. Hempel. Now , we feel that a situation like that should be done away with. Another thing I wish to mention is that immediately we have African people as members of the Village Management Board we shall be having people to represent the interests of the African people whom we represent here . My previous motion was aimed at giving certain portions ofthe municipal area for the purposes of settlement by African people so that our people must also have rights to trade . What you find now is that throughout the Transkei I think there is some craze for supermarkets . MR. K.M. GUZANA : What has that to do with your motion? MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : The applications are being sent to the VM B and you find the VMB making recommendations , which means that some Europeans like Mr. Hempel who have no intention of leaving the Transkei apply for licences to put up supermarkets . What would happen to the aspiring African traders ? With those few remarks I plead with hon. members of the Assembly to have the same perspective view that I have so that Village Management Boards should be established. Those are my remarks.
Engcobo, in an area zoned for the Black people nobody represents them and speaks on behalf of the people concerned. Similarly , at Ncambedlana the streets need immediate attention . The amendment therefore has in view that in zoned municipal areas the African and the European should sit together and look after the common welfare of the residents . In the motion I put forward last year I spoke at length and very thoroughly on this and anyone who wants to know may look up the Hansard. I therefore do not want to waste the time of this House . I merely say I move according to the amendment.
MR. G.T. VIKA: I second. Mr. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to move the following amendment : To delete all the words after " Administration" and to substitute therefor the following words : "to lay down a percentage representation of Africans by Africans in Village Management Boards and Municipalities where towns have been wholly or partially zoned Black. "
CHIEF D.D.P. amendment.
NDAM ASE :
I second the
MR. G.T. VIKA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think this motion is one of the motions which should not be opposed by anyone. We African people for the first time are being given the opportunity to realise ourselves and
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You want representation of Africans by Africans . Where is your multi- racial policy ? You are confused . I cannot even listen to this . 94 .
We would like to ask the mover how he comes into existence .
instead of getting mere areas given over to us we want to have a share. I do not approve of the portion of the amendment which reads that there should be a certain percentage of Africans on these boards. We would like the regulation to be carried out as has always been the practice - that the people who have property rights must vote for their representatives in the Village Management Boards . It has been mentioned that some of the towns have fewer Europeans than Bantu. I would like to make it quite plain to the Assembly that what is taking place today is something this side of the House will not What we see coming forth is a approve of. misunderstanding . The few people who are on the management of these towns have developed a certain attitude . To make this clear I will give an example of the town from which I come. In Tsolo there was an area set aside for Jabulani and it was placed near the surgery of the Bantu doctor. Although the regulations provide that the people will be consulted first in regard to the area , because the people onthe board were all Europeans they simply carried this out without consultation of the people . Further, now that many African people have gone into these municipal areas and have acquired property like the Europeans have , their stock is impounded just like the stock of those who live in the reserves and who do not have representatives on the council. I would like this to be perfectly understood, that instead of this regulation bringing in harmony, it has brought misunderstanding because the few people left managing these towns have not got the right attitude towards the Africans. I would like to make this further example. In Tsolo the cemetery for the Bantu people is about three miles outside the municipal area and the people are constantly asking how long such a situation will carry on now that we have our own Government. Who is likely to answer this, seeing that they live alone ? Even though I have not said much I would like to appeal to my hon. friends that their European friends whom they are protecting by this percentage required in the amendment, and whom they will continue to protect, are not dealing fairly with the Bantu people.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: We say he must go. CHIEF NDAMASE : He has come into being as a result of this policy of separate development of the Government. The express purpose of the European in this country is that he shall always control everything, even though he may be the only White man in the area…….. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: That is why we say he must go. CHIEF NDAM ASE : ...because if that is not the case White supremacy in this country will collapse. We stand for multi-racialism, equality as between White and Black, for we maintain we are equal with the White man and our blood is as good as their blood before God. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. CHIEF NDAMASE : Today this Government has set aside a portion of the finances to be used to put right the villages set aside for the African people . You will see this on page 5 of the Estimates of Expenditure , sub- head G. It is quite clear therefore that this money is handed over to be administered by, say, a headman such as we have been speaking about in the Tsomo area, but it comes direct from the mouth of the Government inviting the people to be co-opted merely to come and witness how this money is administered. In a town that is partially zoned with White on one side and Black on the other, we maintain that in such towns the White and the Black must sit together in council and the White must teach the Black. If the Whites object to sitting together in this manner to educate one another, I would like to know how the teacher can teach if he lives in one area and the pupil in quite another area. (Interjections) We know that the people who support the policy of separate development have not got any sense and they are far from being real converts. It cannot be denied that the policy of separate development has been given birth to by those Europeans who have no desire whatsoever to live side by side with the Africans. Admittedly there are Europeans who are very well disposed towards the Africans , the real Christians.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a pity we have had to listen to a speaker such as the last one. It is quite plain from the remarks he made that he would like done to others that which he would not like done to himself. If he had been a minister of religion he would advocate that what he would like done to himself he should do unto others. In his opening remarks he spoke in the strain of stressing that both Africans and Europeans should be represented by an equal number on the Village Management Boards, when the mover of the motion himself stated that he would like the Africans co-opted, knowing very well that a co-opted member hasn't the full rights of a member of the council . What the amendment seeks is that the representation on these boards be on a percentage basis of White and Black. The mover of the motion has told us of a European, a Mr. Hempel , who is a product of this separate development policy. This Mr. Hempel is headman of this village. (Laughter)
MR. Z.M. MABANDLA: Name one. CHIEF NDAMASE : My hon. friend across the floor wants me to mention just one , but there are so many that I will not bother. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : that is all .
We just want one,
CHIEF NDAMASE : You want me to name just one. That means that you do not read the Press and take note of the Europeans who oppose this policy of separate development. I am sorry
95.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: really serious?
to note that you do not follow the newspapers . (Interjections ) I have not come here to teach All I have to preach to you is that you you. must come over to be rescued by this side of the House . ( Laughter) In the plainest terms , our amendment seeks to give equal rights to the Africans and the Europeans in all these Even in the areas which have been boards. zoned Black, let me make this clear to you that the African has not got any privileges . My hon. friend here says he is only considering the towns which have been zoned partially Black , but in his remarks when he gave Tsomo as an example to make it clear , he said Tsomo has been completely zoned Black but the headman is still a White man and he does not say anything against that, even though the Black man is not represented . (Interjections ) Will you please listen to this. I wish your policy were this so that the Black man could enjoy the same privileges as the Whites . (Interjections )
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am. You have no say in these Village Management Boards and towns we are discussing now to make it clear that you have a share in the areas . We maintain we should have equal rights in these Territories . MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: peans must go.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , please keep order . CHIEF NDAMASE : We do not want intermarriage as you want it. All we want are equal rights and the Europeans are not too happy to rule this land without our co- operation. You are making them happy because to you it is right that they alone should administer this land. (Interjections )
CHIEF NDAMASE : This is what we do not like about your policy - that you want the White man to leave the country. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We say they must have no properties in the Transkei. We shall call them back to assist us.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. With these few words CHIEF NDAM ASE : therefore I support the amendment whole- heartedly.
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Your pack is doing exactly what you are doing today when you say you want the White man to leave , when you give the White people a large area and we come here to crowd in this small area of the Transkei.
MR. L.I. CHEMANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to support very strongly the motion to request the Provincial Administration to allow the establishment of village management boards by the Bantu in all the towns that have been zoned Black in the Transkei. As a result of the Transkei Constitution Act most towns and villages have been zoned Black or partially Black and there was only one omission , Mr. Chairman - the establishment of Bantu VM Bs where the village is Black, so now there is an outcry by the Africans that up till now they have had no say in these Village Management Boards and they cannot be left out This motion is therefore actually altogether . driving to a point where our people must have a say in the administration of the VMB so as to avoid this dictatorship by one man....
Have you ever had
CHIEF NDAMASE : Here is a question bythe hon. the Chief Minister. My reply is that the White people found us in this land . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
And they took it.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You got your land in 1963 through this Constitution, my dear man. Before that you had no rights in the Transkei. CHIEF NDAMASE : We on this side have not given ourselves over. We still maintain that this land belongs to our forefathers. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order . CHIEF NDAMASE : We maintain that this is our land and whatever privileges are to be found in Johannesburg we want to share in them and , further, it is our people who work in Johannesburg. We want to be one and the same with the European people in the administration of the funds and welfare of this land . MR . K.M. GUZANA: Hear , hear . Whatever wealth my CHIEF NDAMASE : accrue from the mines of this land, we want to be sharers .
We say the Euro-
CHIEF NDAMASE: You have not stated that. What you require are merely equal rights . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : land outside the Transkei ?
Are you
MR . GUZANA:
Isn't that what you like?
MR. CHEMANE: ..as has been quoted of a certain Mr. Hempel of Tsomo, which is very, very unfair . We find that in these VM Bs there are certain trading rights which have been granted to the White people and then the Bantu people know nothing at all about them . You will find that where the Bantu try to apply for trading facilities the applications are from time to time refused because those people have no right in the VMB . I am very sorry to say that my friends on the other side are trying to mix this with their policy of multi- racialism . They must learn to look after their own affairs , otherwise they will be suppressed further as it has been so often in the past. It is not correct to say . the people live in these towns in the same way as the Europeans who have been there for a long time . The Europeans are not to be compared 96.
leave ? They will not leave because they have been sent to watch over the Transkei like Mr. Hempel. (Interjections )
with the Bantu who are poor people , and it is this that creates a big difference in the lives of these two, so that we cry : Black for the Black and White for the White . Now when we come to these VMBs that are to be run by the Bantu themselves, they will look after the interests of the Bantu fully and make very serious representations to the Provincial Administration, and in that way our African people will stop crying. I see no reason therefore why we should not have our Bantu in the VM Bs and I feel the whole House must agree on the fact that we should have these VM 3s established on a separate basis. With those words I support the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. MNYILA : Let me put you on the right track . In Tsomo area there are Europeans and Africans in the village and they are living happily together and nobody desires any other to leave the area . They use the streets of Tsomo , one just like the other, whereas you say one group should be separated from the other . Will you teach us this , oh beautiful one . (Laughter) We have the European people in this land and they will never leave this land until we walk They will keep you over their dead bodies . marking time, whereas they will be carrying out their duties . They gave you this Parliament for a specific purpose . They will never give you the Transkei about which you constantly shout : The Transkei is mine ; the Transkei is They have a specific purpose to carry mine ! out. (Interjections)
MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall not delay you long on this motion. I feel, however , that I cannot restrain myself, seeing the youth playing with a dangerous issue . Let me make reference to the Tsomo area where reference has been made to a certain Mr. Hempel . Many European traders have left the Tsomo area and the XDC bought over all their trading stations and gave them to the Africans to manage . There is no African who would go and do whatever he likes in those former European shops of the XDC because they are managed by the Africans and the African managers will tell you you cannot do what you like there because the shops belong Indeed they do so because they to the XDC . want to remain true to the XDC so that they may have the shops passed on to them. As the mover mentioned , the European traders have left the area and only 17 Europeans have remained there. Amongst the 17 there is a Mr. Hempel , sole manager or headman of the area, who has been given authority by the Provincial Administration who have instructed him to mainThe tain the privileges of the White people. mover went on to say that Mr. Hempel has refused the African people the privilege of using the sports field which they were formerly allowed to use. If he did not carry out that
THE CHAIRMAN :
MR. MNYILA: Did you listen carefully to what the hon. the Chief Minister said on the radio - that he will stand firm behind the Republican Government with his army? He says that when he knows he hasn't even a single battalion. I do not know whether he is clinging to the strength of Mr. Sihele . (Laughter) MR. R. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate myself with the motion. I have heard people speaking only about Tsomo, whereas this motion speaks about all the towns and villages which have been zoned . I infer from that that this goes way back to the time when they opposed the zoning proclamation and in opposing this motion they apparently want to boost multi- racialism . We constantly hear the remark that Mr. Hempel has been given this privilege , and that is exactly what we want to do away with the giving of privileges to a single person. The people who are opposing this motion are fools. They have only recently been complaining against the introduction of certain commercial ventures into the villages , among which was the selling of Jabulani.
policy Mr. Hempel would not be doing his duty because he has been given specific instuctions to look after the interests of the White people. The area he is looking after has been given to him according to the regulations , and anyone who maintains today that the area is Black can go to Mr. Hempel because Mr. Hempel has been given instructions to keep that land because it is land which was given over to them .
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, rule 41 says a member shall not use offensive expressions . The hon. member says we are fools . ( Interjections )
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Are you against the formation of a VMB in Tsomo? Here is my point - your MR. MNYILA: friends who told you that we are refused admission to that land should go and knock first at the door of the man who has been given supervision over that area, and if they do so you will see the happy relations that result in the Tsomo area. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: to this motion?
Order , please .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Sit down. Carry on. Just ignore him. MR. MSENGANA : This motion opposes the introduction of such enterprises without the people being consulted, and aims at ensuring that the people are consulted . (Interjections)
Are you opposed THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
MR. MNYILA: Mr. Hempel will not leave that area . Look over there at the bay and you will see people who have come to watch over this Assembly. Can you tell me when they will
MR. MSENGANA: The people would be represented if they had any sense, unless they are fools , and they would be able to take part in the discussions and be consulted . I will
97.
necessarily does not Black mean that it is owned by Africans . An area may be zoned Black but ownership will continue in the original White owners indefinitely, because the zoning proclamation does not lay down a time limit within which all Whites must have sold their properties in the Black- zoned area and therefore the control or the rights will still be vested in the European owners and they will have the right to elect members to the VMB. Let us understand that quite clearly and not mistake vesting of ownership in the African by virtue of the zoning of a portion of the town for African occupation and ownership. As the motion stands it seeks to have Africans only controlling these municipalities and VMBs areas. Let me tell the hon. members of the governing side that this is just a pipe dream, even if it consoles you in your "apartheid" philosophy. What African is earning sufficient to buy out Europeans who own properties in these areas which are actually zoned Black ? The nett result is that anybody who tries to buy these properties becomes financially committed tothe XDC for the rest of his lifetime , because these properties are commanding a high price on the market, and this Government is not making it easy for even its employees to buy these properties owing to the low " apartheid" salaries it is paying to its officer. Remember that one swallow does not make a summer and that not all Africans have the money to buy these properties which are zoned Black. Let us look at the financial implications if the idea embodied in this motion were to be implemented. It would mean that you would have two administrative centres in a town, one for Europeans and one for Africans . You are going to have two sets of employees , one set employed by the VMB, White , and the other by the VMB, African. It means the White VMB has to supply water to the White residents ; the Black VMB has to supply water to the Africans. You are dreaming of taking over - it is just like picking up a stone and you find there is a lot of thorn on it. You are going to have a health inspector employed by the White VMB, a Black health inspector employed by the Black VM B. How is this practically possible? Is this not a duplication of services in an area which falls within the VMB boundary? I cannot see the sense in pressing this motion as it stands . Then again, you are seeking these two sets of officials to administer a town. Very few Africans have bought over properties which have already been zoned for Africans and if they were to have their own Village Management Board it would mean those Africans would have to finance all the services which are going to be extended to them by their African VM B. That is practically and financially impossible for these Africans to do, nor is this Government inside the subsidy that it gets from the Republican Government able to set aside money to finance those African VM BS in the various districts of the Transkei , so that even the Transkei Government cannot make this a practical possibility. The amendment seeks to implement practically and specifically a provision already existing in the ordinance relating to municipalities and village management boards. As it is now, no person is barred from becoming a member of a municipality or village manage-
concentrate on the remarks of the hon. member about Tsomo. He says Mr. Hempel should be approached. In other words , he wants Mr. Hempel to be the dictator. The motion seeks to have privileges extended to the people of these villages . He mentions trading stations which have been bought by the XDC and managed by people who do not have any right to these trading stations , but this motion says nothing about the management of these shops or trading stores. Let us say the XDC purchased twenty trading stations and there are twenty Bantu in those villages who are managing those stations . Now, the motion seeks that these twenty managers should be represented on these boards . I have read the motion properly and it does not say that the managers under the XDC should be administered . They will be administrators in the trading stations in which they are employed. Furthermore , there are many Africans who have bought property in these villages and who should be represented on the boards by their own people. MR. MNYILA : in Tsomo .
Tell me one who has bought
MR. MSENGANA: They should therefore not be administered without being consulted. (Interjections) You talk of a percentage basis . The village or town may be zoned Black , but because of the high prices it may not be possible for the number of Black people to be equal to that of the White , but those who have already purchased property should be provided for. Your aim is to protect the interests of the White people. Perhaps they get certain gifts from the White people . The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment submitted by the hon. member from Engcobo , Mr. Majija. Before I speak to this amendment I would like hon. members to look at the motion closely and see what it seeks. First of all, constitutionally the motion as worded is completely out of order, for there is no constitutional link between the Legislative Assembly of the Transkei and Provincial Administration whatsoever. It would have been wiser to request the Republican Government to make representations to the Provincial Administration, not for this Assembly to think it can make representations direct to the Provincial Administration. The motion as it stands seeks to establish Village Management Boards in all the towns that have been zoned Black. In effect, what is going to happen in terms of this motion is that there are going to be two Village Management Boards for towns which are zoned Black and I do not know what the purpose of that is. It may be suggested that these VM Bs which are going to be staffed by Africans will replace the present VMBS staffed by Europeans , but how is that practicable in the present circumstances? The årea of the town is zoned fact that an 98.
ment board by reason of his race or colour . What has kept out the African from these bodies is the fact that there has not been a municipal electorate enlightened enough to vote an African into one of these bodies. Then again, there is the division of the municipal area into wards and in these wards we find that we have a residential area which is predominantly White so that an African has not had an opportunity to be elected into the village management board or the municipality. Thus if for instance , Ncambedlana within the municipal area of Umtata were a ward by itself an African would have been sitting in the municipal council of Umtata , but Ncambedlana is part of a ward which included Norwood and a portion of town and there has been no chance for the election of an African into the municipal council of Umtata. Where there are areas zoned Black the town could be divided into wards that will have a predominantly Black population and that will give the African a chance to be on the villagement management board under the existing law without any amendment. Since we must accept the fact that these towns will never , never be taken over completely by Africans , what do we do as an Opposition? We say there should be a percentage representation of Africans onthe VMB or municipal council . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Are you forgetting your words? You said zoning will never take place .
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What is your remedy for Tsomo then? Even if all the Europeans MR . GUZANA : in Umtata were to leave and one European remain in Umtata he would dictate . MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Hempel must go.
That is why I say
MR. GUZANA : That is your policy and I cannot see you saying " Hempel must go" when that is your policy. ( Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA : That is your policy - that is what you seek. Now you are having it, so don't complain. You accept that you are of an inferior race mentally and therefore the White man will rule you, and so let Hempel continue to rule you. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order . MR. GUZANA: People with inferior mentalities will accept separate development and so you accept separate development in Tsomo. Those who cling to the Europeans are the very ones who are adumbrating the policy of separate development. (Interjections ) It is no use wriggling under your policy. It is your policy and it is sticking you hard , but I think you like it very much because it makes you look bigger than you are . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. GUZANA : Yes , we always say a person will never be overtaken by evil , but evil overtakes us so we have to pray. (Laughter) We say therefore there should be a percentage representation of Africans in these VMB areas where there are Africans who already own property, not in respect of areas which are merely zoned Black, as zoning does not necessarily mean ownership vests in the African. Thus as the number of Africans who own property in the municipal areas increases , so will their number in the municipal council increase with a corresponding decrease in the number of representatives of the White population. That is why, for instance, the amendment does not say a 20% representation or a 30% representation , but allows for a sliding percentage which will be related to the population which is inside the municipal area and which is able to exercise a vote in the election of members to the VMB or municipal council . As for Mr. Hempel in Tsomo, if you make your bed you have got to lie in that bed because one of the principles of "apartheid" and separate development is that an African will never, never rule over a White man. (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA: We know an inflated balloon will go right up into the sky but it bursts into nothingness , and all this noise is indicative of an emptiness of mind and a refusal to concede that the African is equal to the White man in all respects. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , please do not make so much noise.
MR. GUZANA: I would not speak the way I do ; I would not be teaching you about your own motion if I were empty- headed . My problem is that I cannot put sense into a pig which wants to live in a "pondokkie" . (Laughter) You take a pig out of the pigstye and wash it and the minute you let it go it runs back again into the mud and wallows in the mire . ( Laughter) I will leave you to your "apartheid" quagmire and I have spoken to the amendment and shown you how reasonable our amendment is and how practical it is. (Interjections) Well , if you want to organize the masses go out and stand on a soapbox and organize the masses . I am not the one to organize the masses - I am the one to lead the people into a sane , reasonable policy. These people with a leaning towards leading the masses are these soapbox orators who mislead the public, shouting slogans and deluding the people . Let the VM Bs incorporate the Africans on a percentage basis so that there is interchange of ideas , co-operation and joint administration of municipal affairs. Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I have put some thoughts into their minds.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Hempel has justified his authority over the Village Management Board of Tsomo by owning a lot of property in Tsomo, but even if he owned one erf he would still be head of Tsomo, as this is implicit in the policy of separate development, that the White man will continue to dictate and rule the Black man. (Interjections) Ordinance provision or no ordinance provision the basic truth is that the White man under "apartheid" will rule all races not White.
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the mover of the motion to wind up.
99 .
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I suggested the establishment of Bantu village management boards I made it quite clear that in those areas which have been zoned entirely Black these VMBS should be established . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition surprises me when he suggests there should be one White VMB and one Black VMB . On this side of the House we stand for one VMB for Tsomo so that we can administer the affairs of the village and whatever Europeans remain they must go. We will not put up with the idea that one man must handle the affairs of the majority. (Interjections )
stead of looking after the interests of the people. I call upon them all , including the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, to serve in the councils of the Transkei Government. THE SECRETARY : The question is a motion by the hon. member , Mr. T.E. ka- Tshunungwa, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija. I shall put the question: Those in favour of the delection of the words in the motion proposed by the amendment? THE CHAIRMAN: The Noes have it.
A division was called.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: When we are pressing for the establishment of VMBs we do not mean to sever the connection between us and the Provincial Council. As it is we have the Transkei Government on its feet but we have not severed connections with the Provincial Council. We are here to represent the interests ofthe African Look at what happened in Idutywa people . when an African wanted to put up a hotel there and the Europeans on the VMB would not make things easy for him because that VMB is purely White and the White people are here for the interests of his fellow White men. I am surprised at the Opposition because in fact we are speaking the same language . The only thing is, we say twelve on this side and on that side they say a dozen. We have quoted instances in Cala and Tsomo and, in fact , the hon. member for Tsomo did make it clear that the town is predominantly Black though it is owned by the XDC. Does this man, in his narrow way of thinking, anticipate a situation whereby the board of directors of the XDC would have to come to Tsomo and have a meeting to discuss matters appertaining to the people of Tsomo? I am not at all in favour of this percentage representation. In fact that is the way the Opposition members think. Their hon. leader, whom I would term a Black European, is thinking along the lines of representatives by the Ballingers and the other White people who represented us . It is quite clear - I stand four- square here for the establishment of Black VMBs . (Interjections) In fact I am not surprised when I am told they even opposed the zoning of the Transkei towns and because they are people who are bubbling in the water the towns were zoned and today they are in favour of zoning. They come with an amendment to a motion on the zoning of these towns. Why can't they say in simple language that they accept this motion as it stands because it is in their interest as well?
During Division
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , the House will remember that I ordered the hon. member from Engcobo , Mr. Mgudlwa , to march out and rule 47 (a) therefore applies , so I do not see why he should be here now. Iwill read the rule : "The Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall order a member who disregards the authority of the Chair to withdraw immediately from the Assembly for the remainder of the sitting on that day. " I shall therefore ask the member to march out as he did. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, if I remember correctly the Chair merely ordered Mr. Mgudlwa out ofthe Chamber. He was not ordered to go out and remain out for the rest of the day's sitting. THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member should be quite clear that I was applying to him rule 47 (a) and there is no question about that. It I shall therefore ask him to is quite clear. march out. His vote will be ignored. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, the whole vote should be ignored. We should start from the beginning again as the hon. member was one of the tellers . THE CHAIRMAN: again.
Very well , we shall start
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point or order , Mr. Chairman, I would like to know whether this re- count refers to that side of the House or to this side as well. THE CHAIRMAN: It will refer to the Opposition side . The counting has already been done on the other side and there is no need to do it again. You will remember that the hon. Mr. Mgudlwa was on the Opposition side . It is only the Opposition side that is affected in its number of votes .
MR. L.L. NGUDLWA: (Inaudible interjection) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , I call upon you to march outside . Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa left the Chamber.
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I contend that if you disqualify the counting....
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, this is my point - the Opposition, composed of men who are playing to the gallery and showing off their knowledge of English, come here to show how much English they learnt in-
GOVERNMENT MEMBER :
On your side .
MR. GUZANA: No , you will disqualify every count whether it be on the one side or the other. 100.
THE CHAIRMAN : I have already decided it is the Opposition side only that is concerned so the two tellers will come back . That is all.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No. MR. GUZANA : You cannot have a partial disqualification because Mr. Mgudlwa participated in the counting as a teller, that is all. Wheter he was on the one side or the other is immaterial. You say his presence was irregular and therefore whatever he did was irregular in so far as the counting is concerned..
After a re - count of the Yeses , the words sought to be deleted in the original motion were retained by 66 votes to 19 in a division as follows : -
YESES .
NOES.
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Skampule Cambell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TELLERS: 1. 2.
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandlana Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Percy Ntibane Bulube Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Magida Zenzi . Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaid Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief M sudukeni Dlamini
L.I. Cemane. R. Madikizela.
101 .
Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Mr. Robert Betram Msengana TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana. H. Zulu.
MR. GUZANA : I am speaking of the constitutional composition of this Assembly. If you want me to speak about separate development I shall speak to it but at the present moment I want to confine myself to a constitutional point. If we have 64 elected members , then it means that we shall be having a fifty-fifty basis of tribal representation and democratic representation in this House. In saying so I am not condoning the existence of nominated members in this House. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: The amendment is therefore lost and I shall now put the original motion. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know on which side Mr. Madikizela was counting. THE CHAIRMAN: Sit down, hon. member , and please don't waste time.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA : All I seek is that there should be equal representation between nominated and elected members. Let us concede basically that the chief is not an elected member, nor is he an elected official even administratively. He is born a paramount chief, he is born a chief. He is not elected a paramount chief, nor is he elected a chief, and there can be no suggestion therefore that he holds his position as paramount chief or as chief by reason of the fact that the tribe has elected him, because that is not done. For that reason he claims his succession to paramountcy or to chieftainship by inheritance and not by right of, shall we say , educational qualifications or what have you. I shall not speak about chiefs or paramount chiefs who have been constitutionally created. I speak of such chiefs as are or can be exemplified by the hon. member opposite from Qaukeni . It is therefore incorrect or fallacious to suggest that the chief is the representative of the people because if he were , then he would have been elected to the position of chieftainship. The chief is a man who has symbolized the unity of the tribe . He inherits the hallowed position that has been passed down from father to son by a respect given to that family which has distinguished it from other familes which are known as commoners , as distinct from royalty. Now , how can this individual whose position is hallowed by heridity and by royalty be said to be the representative of his subjects in a legislative body? That is the reason why I say so long as we have a majority of nominated members , to that extent do we decrease the democratic nature of this Legislative Assembly. This motion then moves to have the elected members equal in number to the non-elected members . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Then we shall have them all from the TNIP and none from the Democratic Party.
The original motion was put and carried. INCREASED ELECTED REPRESENTATION IN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak to the motion standing to my name :"That the Transkei Government should recommend to the Republican Government amendments to the Transkei Constitution Act, Act No. 48 of 1963, to give increased elected representation in the Legislative Assembly by increasing the number of elected members to 64. " Mr. Chairman, this motion relates to section 23 of the Constitution Act , ( c) of which reads as follows : "forty-five members elected by the registered voters of the Transkei. " The idea of elective representation is as old as the hills and democratic institutions have been so described because its members are elected members. Any institution or council which does not give adequate elective representation cannot claim to be a democratically constituted body. The Transkei Constitution Act has got rather a mixture of nominated and elected members of the Legislative Assembly provided for under that Act and the majority is enjoyed by the nominated , rather than by the elected membership of this Assembly. In as much as we have more nominated than elected members in the Legislative Assembly, so shall we correspondingly decrease its democratic foundation. In the past the Opposition has outlined its policy quite clearly on the constitution of this Assembly, when it has stated that it would like to have this Assembly wholly elected and that there should be an upper house of chiefs. The progressive step towards that goal is the one that is indicated in the motion to which I now speak. If there is going to be any claim by anybody that there is a pinch of democracy in the constitution of this Assembly, my submission is that the elected members should be ofthe same complement as are the nominated members of this body.
MR . GUZANA: Whether the Democratic Party is wiped out or the TNIP is wiped out is immaterial. This is a constitutional point, for the more we have of elected members the nearer shall we be to an accurate interpretation of the desires and wishes of the people of the Transkei. Can we say truthfully that this body speaks with the voice of the people?
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Isn't that the idea of separate development? 102 .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Yes .
were merely nominated as such and they feel they are bulls because they have been nominated. Let us come back to the motion about the increase in the number of elected members . Look at the members of the Government. The only members who really participate in discussions are those who have been elected. You must agree with me if you say that the subjects speak on behalf of the chiefs . For that reason I say that the number of elected members of the House should be increased and the chiefs should occupy an upper house. When you are in an upper house you will act exactly as you do at home , because the " ibandla" will deal with matters and after dealing with them they will go to the chief and tell them what they think. You think I was born in a town, but I was born in the country. I am going to tell you about Xhosa custom because some of you know nothing about it . (Interjections ) When the chief has been thus informed he makes his pronouncement, but what he is actually saying is what the "ibandla" has advised him to say. (Interjections ) You are becoming rowdy now - I will have to bring a shambok. I will take this shambok and put it under some dry kraal manure and when I do reply I will use the shambok. (Laughter)
The chiefs reTHE CHIEF MINISTER : present the people. You know that very well. MR. GUZANA: Or shall we say that this body speaks with the voice of the nominated chiefs ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Nominated by whom ? Who nominates the chiefs? They come here by right of birth. They are the leaders of the people.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. GUZANA: It is quite clear to any student of constitutional law that the wishes and the desires of the people can only be expressed fully and adequately by these elected members who have a responsibility to the electorate. ( Interjections) The position as it exists today is that a constitutionally created majority of chiefs steamrolls the proceedings in this House and the voice of the elected person who has an obligation to the voters is often crushed because of an intolerance shown by chiefs who do not have the interests of their subjects at heart in legislative functions. ( Interjections )
CHIEF motion.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
D.D.P.
NDAMASE :
I second the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What chief are you talking about? Say it in Xhosa. MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in this connection I wish to read to you an amendment to set the whole machinery to work. The amendment is as follows : -
MR. GUZANA: All right, if you cannot hear what I say when I speak in English I will continue The chiefs who come to saying it in Xhosa. this House have been nominated but not elected by the people and they do not represent the interests of the people. (Interjections) If my motion is carried there will be 64 members elected by the people and there will be a decrease in the number of nominated members so that the people will not be aggrieved . ( Interjections)
"That all the words after the word ' Government ' be deleted and substituted with - ' is of the opinion that the present number of elected representatives in the Transkei Legislative Assembly is sufficient"," Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to make a very long speech. In fact I don't think I will exhaust the number of minutes allocated to me , but I wish to voice one complaint which is , of course, circumstantial - that whenever I speak it is at the last moment when the members are all homesick and want to get home. But that is , as I say, on account of circumstances.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , please keep order . MR. GUZANA : Those who represent the paramount chiefs ought not to speak because they are just like babies who are placed on the backs of their mothers and given something to suck. That is why they have been making such a noise and worrying us . (Interjections) Now milk will be given to the children of the home and the illegitimate children should stand aside so that we legitimate children can speak on behalf of our people. (Laughter) That is what I say, you Government members in whom the people have no confidence I say the number of elected members should be increased to 64. Why should the chiefs be afraid of being overpowered? Why should they be afraid of being overpowered by their subjects ? (Interjections ) What kind of chief is he who acts as if he has no subjects? Some of the chiefs fear their own shadows , saying there are communists behind them. If I were like that I would leave my seat. It is disgraceful . (Interjections) You don't even know that I am a chief. ( Laughter) You want to know where the chief belongs . Of course a chief is not just nominated. He is born a chief. Maybe some of the chiefs are worried because they
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : They don't trust you. MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, I am not going to discuss whether I am trusted or not because a man never goes about saying: You should trust me . I think the hon. member who interjected that is the one who went around the district of Qumbu saying the people must trust him and of course the people were so cheated that they voted him in. (Laughter) Now , coming to support of the amendment, I would like to point out to the hon. mover of the original motion certain discrepancies in his argument. You cannot compare two things which are not comparable , just in the same way as you cannot compare the ocean, say, with anything that is not of that nature - say the sky or something like that. He seeks to amend a position which was created in the Constitution , which is this section 23 (c). Now he seems to be obsessed with the idea of hatred for hereditary chiefs
103.
is also static. It was never envisaged that the elected members would pull against their chiefs . This is only a new thing which has cropped up because the elected members are members of tribes which are controlled by the chiefs and Whoever wants to go you yourselves said: against a chief or to kill his chief? You said so, because with your short memory you must have forgotten about Doubts . (Interjections ) In connection with chiefs I just want to point out that it was unfortunate that the word you used was derogatory when you referred to certain chiefs as being creations , constitutional chiefs , which meant that you inferred that these chiefs were not of royal blood, (Interjections) and that perhaps because of meritorious service as constables or anything else....
and, of course , he is very lucky because this is an aftermath of the election where the chiefs did not listen to him or to his satellites , for if he had said this before he would never have got even the meagre support that has dwindled to this ridiculous number of his followers . (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. MADIKIZELA : Now , Sir , the best thing to do when a small dog is barking is to stop, so hence my pause . (Laughter) Now I go forward and say you cannot compare an elected member with a chief, because chiefs are not elected, as you say . They are a different set of representation altogether. They represent their tribes. (Interjections ) You seem to advocate a state of affairs where chiefs must be elected , simply because you have no idea of what a chief's position is. When you say that the chief does not represent his people you, of course, automatically mean that the people are more favourably represented by the elected members. Now where can you get a favourable representation where chiefs have been cast outside the Government and not recognized , and Dr. Nkrumahs and other doctors have taken control ? What example do you get from those people who have set aside their chiefs ? (Interjections) In any case , he says that chiefs do not represent their people and before I come to the reason why there are 64 chiefs here in the House, which I am quite clear about but he does not know because we say in Xhosa that you cannot be a know- all. When this Constitution was drawn he was already a practising attorney in Mqanduli , but whoever were in the Transkei and were responsible for the drawing of the Constitution must have known what they were doing, but he was not here while other people drew the Constitution which embodied this section and stipulated that there should be 64 chiefs in this House. For his information I must give him the reason why there are 64 chiefs and ask him how he will equate these 64 chiefs that are in this House with the 64. The 64 chiefs who are ex officio members are here because they were hereditary chiefs at the time when the Constitution was drawn in Parliament and elsewhere and those chiefs will remain 64.
MR. GUZANA: Or TNIPS. MR. MADIKIZELA : ....they were just created chiefs. Of course you did not know that we can read between the lines and know exactly what Now you speak of fifty-fifty reyou meant. presentation in your case , but you are forgetting that your majority has most shamefully dwindled and say now there were 64 of your people elected members , and 64 chiefs . What we go by here is the history of this House , where people desert or defect from your side . We are not thinking of people who defected nowhere and you just collected them in the wilderness because you wanted more support. Now with your fifty-fifty, what will you gain? MR. GUZANA: That is not the point. Whether the people are properly represented · that is the point.
MR. MADIKIZELA: These 64 chiefs , except the chiefs who blindly follow you, reject your policy. Now, chiefs have got a choice . Those that are on your side , if they wish for a better position, can easily resign from your side and show us the way and make room for elected members . MR . GUZANA : But that must be preceded by a constitutional change. MR. MADIKIZELA : I happened to be in Pretorial when this Constitution was drawn and when there were chiefs of your own argument. We gave them the option · if they did not want chiefs to be in this House they should give us the lead and resign their chieftainship .
MR. GUZANA: Some have died. MR. MADIKIZELA : If they die , of course, they are substituted , but what I mean to impress on your dull brain is that the number of 64 is static, as being chiefs who were there when the Constitution was drawn; and the number of 45 elected members which you now wish to increase to 64 was reached by a certain quota of 20,000 registered voters for one member.
MR.
MR. GUZANA:
Now, how will you in-
By increasing your quota.
MR. MADIKIZELA :
That was no argument .
MR. MADIKIZELA : They must show us a physical example and there they are , still clinging like dead grasshoppers. (Laughter) Why are they clinging to chieftainship if it is such a useless thing? Mr. Chairman, I told you that when a dog barks at you your best policy is to stop. Now, Mr. Chairman, I must ask you again for a proper ruling because at this stage it is only the Republican Government which can repeal or amend this Constitution, which Constitution is based on separate development which you do not Now, how do you follow on the other side . reconcile your attitude with your request to the
MR . GUZANA : But how did you know the number of voters at the time ? MR. MADIKIZELA: crease your 45?
GUZANA:
But the number of 45
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THE CHAIRMAN : I will give you five minutes now to finish.
Republican Government to alter its own Constitution? (Interjections ) Suppose now we amended it, would it alter the separate development policy? You must reply to that, because in all your arguments you are against separate development, or are you going to suggest that these 19 members you agitate for should be White people? Will you please reply to that , Mr. Leader , because , after all, you are against separate development in all its aspects . Now, Sir, I said I am not going to speak very long because it is a very, very stupid motion in its inconsistency with your policy. (Laughter) It is, of course , your usual practice to get all the good things that you can from this House . Now you want to get some of your followers to come to this House and enjoy the liberal allowance that we give you, but have you considered how much more it would cost the treasury to have these extra 19 members ? - because it is your cry that the funds that we get for our revenue are so limited that some of the services are not performed.
MR. GUZANA : surrendered?
MR. MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Sir . Now, coming to the last point, the hon. leader says the people are not adequately represented. I wish him in reply to state just what he is going to do and whether these people are the only people he hopes to represent the people , these extra 19 members . What has caused his failure ? Was it because those people did not represent the people?
MR. GUZANA: Which people ? MR. MADIKIZELA: I mean your satellites at the last general election. (Interjections) Who votes for you except the miserable people at Mqanduli whom you represent at the court there , because you teach them tricks ; and those faction fighters at Kwaaiman? What else can they do because if they don't vote for you , you will lose your profession , and that is a credit to you and I hope you will take it as such. (Laughter) I will conclude by saying that we are not prepared on this side to recommend any change in the Constitution. We must warn you, of course , that if you want more seats you must provide the money , and I also warn you that those members will turn against you when they come into the House. I will ask one ofthe chiefs in support of your motion to stand up and say whether he is not a leader of his people , and that the leaders are mere puppets . You seem to be obsessed with the idea that a chief is a chief and will remain a chief for as long as he lives . I must tell you that a chief could be deposed by his people (Interjections) if the people are not satisfied with him.
What about the supluses
MR. MADIKIZELA: Now you want to get an additional amount for additional members , but you don't tell us where to get the money from.
MR. GUZANA: Surpluses . MR. MADIKIZELA : Do you suggest extra taxation? You want to exhaust the surpluses.
MR. GUZANA: There are surpluses . MR. MADIKIZELA : Yes, it is a red rag to a bull, because even if a cent were our surplus you would still growl . Now, supposing you were Chief Minister and Minister of Finance ....
MR . GUZANA : House .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MADIKIZELA : In fact, I am expecting some of those chiefs there to be deposed if the people find out that they are not representing them . That is a very shameful admission by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. These members of yours say they are the only people who represent the people , while the chiefs represent nobody, not even themselves . No wonder they were asking from this side who is your chief, and we understand that it is the Right Revd . Mr. Thompson or Mr. Thomson, the Mayor of Umtata , who is ruling Ncambedlana and Ngangelizwe . ( Laughter)
I would kick you out of this
MR. MADIKIZELA: surplus in your budget?
Would you have no
MR. GUZANA : I would have a surplus for which I provide , but not in respect of services which I have not rendered . MR. MADIKIZELA: You have not given us a motive as to why you want these extra members . I cannot argue with you. Who can argue with a rat? (Laughter) It will continue to eat your mealies whether you chase it or not, unless you set a trap to kill it. Now, who are those men you promised you would bring into this House ? You are like a man with a leaking
MR. E. SIHELE :
The debate was adjourned.
tank because your supporters have all leaked out.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 6th May, 1969.
MR. GUZANA: You have been leaked out out of the Cabinet. -
too
I second the amendment.
TUESDAY, 6th MAY, 1969
MR. MADIKIZELA: You have lost all your members in Qaukeni . Can you stand up and tell me who is supporting you now? I mean when you reply. If you will give me some more time, Mr. Chairman, tomorrow?
Players were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. 105.
MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply, when can we expect a reply then, as you say the question is being referred to the South African Police?
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 1. Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of the Interior :(a) What is the policy of the Government regarding the purchase of properties bought by the X.D.C. from Whites?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: As soon as possible and as soon as it is convenient.
QUESTION NO. 4. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
(b) Are Blacks expected to pay the same price paid to Whites by the X.D.C. even though such price is much more than the value of the property concerned ? e.g.
(a) How many cattle , horses , sheep and goats have died as a result of drought during the years 1966 , 1967 , 1968 and 1969 in the Transkei?
(i) Property in Tsolo V.M.B. area originally valued at R6,000 bought by the X.D.C. at R16,000 .
(b) What steps losses?
(ii) Property with 4 huts bought by the X.D.C. for over R4,000
are
taken to replace the
REPLY: (a) The total death figures are given according to the seasonal years .
REPLY : (a) The Transkei Government cannot take a policy stand in this matter as the properties referred to are purchased by the S.A.B. Trust and not the Xhosa Development Corporation in terms of the provisions of the White Paper. These properties therefore do not belong tothe Transkei Government.
(i) 1/7/65 - 30/6/66.
Cattle - 121,661 ; Sheep - 291,466; Goats - 245,166; Horses - 10,837. (ii ) 1/7/66-30/6/67.
(b) The rest of the question falls away. Cattle - 98,703; Sheep 210,000; Goats - 129,393; Horses - 18,273.
QUESTION NO. 2. Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of the Interior :"How many trading stores owned by Bantu people are there in the district of Tsomo? Give names .
(iii ) 1/7/67 - 30/6/68. Cattle - 133,192 ; Sheep 306,357; 141,631 ; Horses - 12,427. Goats
REPLY : The following twenty- six Bantu persons own trading stores in the Tsomo district:-
The figures for the period 65/66 ; 66/67 and 67/68 are within the normal ranges for deaths each year , it is therefore not possible to say how many of these deaths are attributable to drought although the percentage must be fairly high for the 67/68 season.
J. Ngqwebo , R. Mbingeleli , G. Sletile , E. Mngqibisa, B. Ntsaluba , E. Njamela , S. Sidloyi , D. Kalimashe , J. Mapitshana, L. Nakani , S. Tshijila , B. Mhletywa , A. Rulube , D. Xongo, R. Maveliso , C. Manzie , V. Tsotsi , C. Ndzaba, B. Mnyani, A. Qina , C. Koyaṇa , P. Jolombe , C. Sifuba, A. Jujuse , M. Sicishe , M. Tsotsi .
(iv) 1/7/68 - 30/3/69. During this nine month period 215,226 head of cattle have died. A total of approximately 130,000 deaths are estimated to be directly due to the drought, although it may be higher. There is however no way of giving an exact figure.
QUESTION NO. 3. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice :(a) Do African station commanders pay rent for houses they occupy?
The figures for sheep, goats and horses , as well as the final figure for cattle deaths will only be available when the next stock census is taken after 30/6/69.
(b) How much per month? (c) Is there any difference to what was paid by White commanders ?
(b) My department is in no position to replace the losses. Ever since the series of droughts started , the regulations controlling the introduction of cattle into the Transkei have been drastically relaxed to assist farmers to augment depleted herds . Furthermore the natural increase can best replace the losses and this process can be accelerated in planned areas where the system of grazing control is carried out conscientiously .
(d) What is the difference, if any? and why? REPLY : There are no station commanders in the Transkeian Police and my Department has no contol over the South African Police , in the Transkei . I am therefore unable to furnish the required information. The South African Police is nevertheless being approached for such information as they may be prepared to disclose . 106.
Mr. Chairman , MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : arising from the reply given by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , I want to ask further whether in the period 1967/1969 he includes the goats that have died in the boots of Ministers ' cars in respect of various installations . (Laughter)
comfort of the hon. member, will he be gracious enough to put that on the order paper ? QUESTION NO. 6. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:(a) How many livestock speculators ' licences have been issued during the year , 1969?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION:. They were slaughtered, they did not die. You are being naughty this morning.
(b) How much does one pay for a speculator's licence ?
QUESTION NO. 5. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior : (a) How many trading stations and shops were there on the 1st January, 1964 in the Transkei towns , villages and districts respectively?
(c) What is the advantage of holding this licence over a man who buys and sells livestock without a licence? REPLY : (a) 66.
(b) R20.00 . (b) How many trading stations were there on 1st January, 1969 ?
(c) The advantage of a licensed speculator is that he faces no danger of being prosecuted for speculating without a licence whereas the person who operates without a licence , wh81st being liable for one , faces the danger of being prosecuted.
(c) How many hotels, bottle stores , cafes and eating houses were there inthe Transkei on 1st January, 1964 and 1st January, 1969, respectively?
Mr. Chairman, as far as I MR. JAFTA: know the procedure has been that everybody is allowed to sell , say, a beast and he can introduce another beast in place of that one.
(d) What precautions are taken to prevent overtrading?
REPLY : (a) 367 and 1,041 in the Transkei villages and towns and the rural areas of the districts respectively .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: speculation?
Is that
MR. JAFTA: It seems to me he can sell twenty without a licence and introduce another twenty. What I want to find out is the advantage of a man holding a licence over the man who can sell a hundred and buy another hundred .
(b) Although it is not clear from the question itself I assume that the questioner requires the figures asked for under this paragraph on the same basis as in (a) above and I therefore furnish it accordingly - 421 and 1,422 respectively.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. the reply thus far given stands .
Chairman, (c) Hotels : 2 and 2 respectively; Bottle Stores Nil and 1 respectively; Cafes : 6 and 33 respectively; Eating Houses : 91 and 134 respectively .
QUESTION NO. 7. Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Finance :Whether it is not possible to revise the salary scales of the Transkeian civil servants to be four-fifths of the salary scales applicable to the White civil servants of the same rank to eliminate the misappropriation of Government moneys and properties by civil servants due to under-payment .
(d) In considering applications for trading licences my Department takes into consi¬ deration such factors as the distances between existing and proposed businesses, the population of the area concerned , the topography, etc. The intention to start a business is advertised on the Notice Board at the Magistrate's office and copies sent to existing traders in the vicinity of the proposed business . In addition an advertisement is also required to be published in the Transkei Gazette . This advertising affords any person the oppostunity to object to an application and such objections (if any) are also taken into consideration along with all other relevant factors .
REPLY : In determining salary scales for posts in the Transkeian Government Service , cognizance is taken of supply and demand, the salary scales applicable to comparable Bantu officers in the Republican Public Service and the funds available to the Transkei for the remuneration of its officers . No other basis is feasible . The latest revision of salary scales took place as recently as October , 1968 and, as from April , 1969 , an annual vacation savings bonus equivalent to 8 % % of basic salary , limited to R200 and R100 in the case of married and single officers , respectively, is payable to officers holding prescribed posts . This represents the optimum use of available funds .
MR . JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon. Minister I would just like to know what distance is considered and what population is considered in this respect. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : For the
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As will become apparent from the Report of the Public Service Commission for 1968 soon to be tabled in this House , ninety percent of officers handling public moneys or stores performed their duties honestly during the year and the fact that 10% did not , constitutes motivation not for a further upward revision of salary scales, but rather stricter control - which is , in fact, being applied to an ever increasing extent.
man, I move that the House now resolve itself into committee of supply.
QUESTION NO. 8. Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of the Interior:(a) How many people have died by violence in Qumbu following upon the introduction of Jabulani 5 months ago?
POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF FINANCE
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee
Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly When I introduced my first budget in this Assembly on the 13th day of May, 1964 , I likened myself in my introductory remarks to a young man who had just received an inheritance . I then said that : -
(b) How many people have been prosecuted and convicted upon matters arising from Jabulani consumption in Qumbu?
(c) How many people have been involved in car accidents because they were under the influence of Jabulani in Qumbu?
" I feel at this stage very much like a young man who has been set up on a part of the family property by a benevolent father and who, right at the beginning of the period when he is embarking as an emancipated manager on his own, is called before his family to give an account of the inheritance entrusted to his care and to get approval for his future plans with the family property. "
REPLY : This is a matter which falls under the jurisdiction of the Department of Justice and should be directed to the Minister of that Department. QUESTION NO. 9. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Chief Minister :Will the Chief Minister make a statement to the House regarding the construction of a Railway link between Umtata and Kokstad .
Five years have now gone by since the above budget speech was given. The first five-year period of self-government in the Transkei came to an end in December , 1968. We went to the electorate, namely the citizens of the Transkei , during October of 1968 to seek a further mandate from the people to manage this heritage for a further five years . The outcome of that election is still fresh in the memory of all and I will refrain today from rubbing further salt into the already painful wounds of our opposition. Suffice it to say that the policy for which we on this side of the House stand, namely the policy of separate development, was endorsed overwhelmingly by the electorate , the opposition ranks have shrunk notably, and the destinies of the Transkei and the people of this territory were again entrusted to our good care for the next five years .
REPLY : No.
QUESTION NO. 10. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :(a) How many morgen were planted with maize during the year 1968-69 at the Agricultural College , Tsolo? How much was reaped from this area? How much per morgen? (b) How many morgen were planted with maize in a Home Model plot at Tsolo Agricultural College during the same year?
We on this side of the House accept this vote of confidence by the electorate with appreciation. We also accept with faith and dedication the duties and responsibilities placed on our shoulders .
How much was reaped from that area? How much was
reaped per
morgen?
At this juncture , whilst having completed our first five years and when embarking on our next five years it may be well to stop awhile again and to take stock of our position. This House and the people represented in this House are entitled to ask of us 'What have you done during the last 5 years ?' and ' What do you intend to do during the next 5 years ? ' I therefore intend to use this opportunity to give a reply to these two all-important questions.
REPLY : (a) (i) 54.5 morgen. (ii) Nil in grain. 110 tons silage . (iii) 2 tons of silage per morgen. (b) (i) On the 3 projects operating morgen. (ii) Nil in grain. 35 tons silage . (iii) 3 - 4 tons per morgen. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL MITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF FINANCE :
-
10.3
COMI will now firstly deal with the question as to what we did or what we achieved during the previous 5 years .
Mr. Chair-
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administrative , economic and constitutional progress in the Transkei.
Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , five years is a very short period of time in the life of a nation but it is with a sense of great pride that I wish to enumerate today some of the more important milestones achieved by us during our first 5 years of government.
In the educational field 7 new high schools , 13 new secondary schools and 60 new primary schools have been established since 1964. More than 2,000 more teachers are employed than in 1963 and we now have 400,000 children at school as comared to 245,000 in 1963 - an increase of well-nigh 63% over the six-year period.
In the first place , with the kind help of the seconded officials so magnanimously placed at our disposal by the Republican Government , we established and built up departmental administrations in the Transkei of which we can all be justly proud.
On the agricultural front we are steadily. forging ahead with the planning and rehabilitation Over 42% of the of our agricultural land. land available for agricultural purposes in the Transkei has already been planned . During the past 5 years over 9,000 miles of fences have been erected (i.e. a distance of more than 5 times the distance from here to Cape Town and back) , 183 boreholes have been sunk and 240 larger and smaller dams have been built. The Lubisi Dam has been completed, bringing over 3,000 morgen of land under irrigation . At Lambasi a great tea plantation has been established and in the near future a tea-processing plant will be erected whilst good progress is also being made with coffee planting. Our afforestation projects have maintained a healthy growth rate of 5% per annum and our intake of sawlogs in our sawmills has been raised from one million to nearly two million cubic feet per annum .
We successfully avoided the pitfalls of chaos, upheavals , maladministration, financial irresponsibility and retrogression in services which have marked so many of the other emerging African States on this continent. We have, where needed , expanded our civil service responsibly and are training our own people by either sending them to universities or giving them training on the job, accompanied with formal training courses , to assume ever greater responsibilities in our own administration. As an example of what has been and is being done I wish to mention the following: We now have 9 Bantu circuit inspectors of Education in the Transkei where we had none in 1963.
Our Government also has a proud record of looking after the interests of all sections of our community, including the aged and the infirm . We have since 1963 raised the wages of labourers in the Transkeian Government Service by at least 30%, 150,000 workseekers were placed in employment outside the Transkei by our Labour Bureaux during 1968 , at present we pay pensions to 70,000 social beneficiaries in the Transkei whilst our other welfare services have shown steady expansion despite a shortage of trained welfare workers .
We now have two Bantu Magistrates in charge of Magisterial districts in the Transkei where such a dvelopment was unthinkable five years ago. We have 12 Bantu officials acting as Assistant Magistrates in the Transkei and a further 11 are taking Law on a full-time basis at Fort Hare University.
We have three B.Sc. graduates studying for Engineering degrees at the Witwatersrand University.
To illustrate our awareness and sensitivity to the plight of the common man I may just in passing refer to the measures recently announced by the Government in connection with the drought position. These measures include the employment of 15,000 persons on drought relief works the supply of supplementary nutritional food to 270,000 school-going and pre- school children, the buying of cattle fodder to the extent of over R500,000 and the spending of over R500,000 to assist farmers to plough their lands .
We have 9 students undergoing training as Engineering Technicians and 5 undergoing training as Surveying Assistants and 3 students have been granted bursaries to study for B.Sc. Agricultural degrees . All nine agricultural regions in the Transkei are now under the charge of Senior Bantu Agricultural officers . In the Administration itself we now have 11 posts of Principal Clerk or equivalent rank manned by Bantu incumbents whilst only 3 such senior posts were manned by Bantu in 1964 , and so I can go on but I think I have mentioned enough to illustrate the progress made in the field of administration .
The visible signs of our achievements during the past 5 years are there for everybody to see. The roads in the Transkei are in a better condition than ever before . If you look around Umtata alone you will see a new meat factory that was built during this period , our Justice complex costing over R6000,000 was recently completed, whilst a substantial Technical College and a modern Bantu Hotel are nearing completion in Umtata .
Through this Legislative Assembly we have during the previous 5 years placed 38 laws on the Statute Books . Some of these Statutes such as for instance our Flag Act, our Education Act, our Reserve Fund and Development Act, Our Transkei Authorities Act, our Transkei
Mr. Chairman, I said in the beginning that I am proud and I think the Transkeian citizens also have good reason to be justly proud of our achievements during our first five years . I do
Agricultural Development Act and our Transkei Roads Act are of profound importance to our
109.
this territory, to maintain law and order and ensure justice to all, to promote the material and spiritual well -being of the Transkei and its peoples ; to protect our own culture ; and to preserve the ideals of religion, civilization and democracy .
not wish to go into too much detail as more explicit information re the administration and progress of the various Transkeian Departments will be given in the policy speeches of the other Ministers . However as head of the Government I am convinced that there are eminent signs of growth and progress in the Transkei. This growth and progress is also reflected by the increase of our own contribution to State expenditure in the Transkei as reflected in our estimates of revenue. Whereas we contributed only three million rand to our revenue in 1964/65 , we contributed five million rand in 1968/69 and it is estimated that we will contribute well over five million rand during 1969/70.
Mr. Chairma, in the no-confidence debate which took place earlier this session the hon. the Leader of the Opposition accused this side of the House of playing down the independence issue in the Transkei. He is quite correct in his observation that I do not stress the question of independence unduly at this stage , but he is completely wrong in alleging that this is a recent change in policy . I have never, right from the beginning of self-government, regarded the question of independence for the Transkei as a practical proposition at this stage of our development. It is correct that complete independence is our ultimate aim · but at the same time I always stressed the word "ultimate " , for at this stage of our development many other issues must receive priority. We must first build up and develop the potential of our country to become economically more viable and we must uplift and activate our people to greater heights of achievement before independence can become a practical political issue for us.
And now the question "What do we intend to do during the next five years?" Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , in my first ever policy speech to this Assembly which I delivered on the 30th day of May, 1964, I formulated for this House the ten basic pillars on which the policy of the Governing Party rests and which I regarded as a solid foundation on which a great future could be built for the Transkei . I do not wish to expound on this policy today in detail but will just briefly mention the points again to refresh the Honourable Members ' memories. I then made it very clear -
From what I have just said it follows logically that if any priorities are to be determined at this stage the two main priorities during the next five years should be
that we on this side ofthe House whole-heartedly endorse the policy of separate development; that we solidly stand by the constitution of the Transkei; that we firmly reject the policy of multiracialism ; that we dedicate ourselves to preserve and to develop this land of ours , the soil and our livestock; that we will by all possible means promote and encourage the economic and industrial development of the Transkei and the exploitation of its natural recources ; that we will develop a sound and deversified educational system for the Transkei; that we will preserve the system of chieftainship , our own cultural herigate and traditions in the Transkei ; that we intend to establish a state in the Transkei founded on law, order and justice for all ; that we confirm our policy of friendship towards the Whites of the Transkei acknowledging our indebtedness towards the European administrators , traders and missionaries but that we also stand solidly for their gradual withdrawal from this our own exclusive land , and finally we assured all concerned of our policy of intimate friendship with our mother- country, the Republic of South Africa.
firstly the physical and economic development of the Transkei , and secondly the upliftment and activation of the human material of the Transkei . Furthermore , Mr. Chairman, I regard these two priorities as very much inter-related. For I firmly believe that although this Government and bodies such as the Xhosa Development Corporation can stimulate the development of the Transkei by establishing certain industries and growth points , real and meaningful progress will only be realized if it is carried by the people A nation can only become prosthemselves . perous through the hard work, the initiative and the achievements of its own citizens . We must therefore educate and activate our own people to take up the challenges that face them in the Transkei and to shake off the shackles of economic enslavement, idleness , complacency and poverty. Towards this end we as a government will do our utmost.
I want to give this House the assurance that this Government will carry on the good work of the first five years . We still stand four-
Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members turning now to Vote I of the printed estimates before you it will be noted that increases under six of the sub-heads of my Department's Vote for 1969/70 amount to R70,600 whilst decreases totalling R20,600 are reflected under four of the remaining five sub-heads. The amount of
square by the policy of separate development and by the principles formulated by me five years ago. I and the members of my Cabinet have dedicated ourselves to serve the people of the Transkei to the best of our abilities .
R801,000 requested this year in respect of services rendered by my Department is therefore R50,000 or 6.6% more than the sum voted last year.
We are very much imbued with the principles and ideals reflected in the preamble of the constitution of the Transkei wherein we dedicated ourselves ·
An additional sum of R21,700 is required under sub-head A for annual salary increments ,
to establish a well-organized government for 110.
from what the hon. the Chief Minister is telling the House is happening . I do not blame the Government members for not so shouting , for the last announcement to the effect that the Report of the Public Service Commission is not ready for us is really an admission of the fact that the wheels of the administration are not properly oiled. I am not so sure that this young man has handled the inheritance placed in his hands in a proper manner. Indeed he has had to disburse funds placed at the disposal of this Government , and that is what any government would have done , irrespective of whether it was a multi - racial policy it was following, or a policy of separate development. After all , we pay the Government to do the work that it has done and we provide the money to make it possible for them to do that work, and if they fail in that regard then they are not a government at all. It has been suggested by the hon. Minister that he has received a whole -hearted endorsement of his policy from the electorate of the Transkei . I want to assure him that this is an illusion of his, rather than an indication of conviction in the electorate of the Transkei . However shrunk in numbers the Opposition is , it is a very determined and an effective Opposition. I have been told that generals manoeuvring their armies on a battlefield always retreat according to plan to make a further sortie , and I think up to now the Government benches have realized that the sting in the Opposition is even greater now than it was before , much to their consternation . We have an enumeration of what the Government says it has done for the people in the Transkei. The Government is asking itself what they have done for the people of the Transkei . I think the proper question to ask is : What have we not done for the people of the Transkei ? We need only look through the budgets of the respective years since 1964 to see how often this Government has returned surpluses in every department, to ask the question: Isn't there something wrong with the financial policy of this Government? A responsible government will always budget for a surplus , but one does not expect that surplus to be augmented by sums of money returned to the exchequer by ministers who have failed to use money placed at their disposal . Each department ( and we say this to the hon. the Chief Minister ) should ask itself the question : Why don't we use money for which we budget? (Interjections ) Now, Mr. Chairman, we gave the Chief Minister time to say his say and we kept quiet. I am not going to tolerate these baying hyenas . (Laughter)
the salaries ofthe incumbents of 16 newly created posts in the Accounts Division and for the payment of the vacation savings bonus which has been introduced this year . Sub-head B provides for subsistence allowances and transport expenses and requires no elucidation. Sub-head C has been increased by R1,400 mainly because postage on mail matter posted by Government departments is now payable at the public tariffs . The provision under sub-heads D and E have been reduced by R2,000 and R7,000 respectively . The reason for this is that fewer publications are to be purchased for the library under item D.3 whilst the non-recurrent amount of R9,000 voted last year under item 7 of subhead E for the five year celebrations falls away this year. The new item styled " reimbursement of Lower Authorities ' funds misappropriated by government officials" is self-explanatory. Amounts paid over to Lower Authorities in this connection are , of course , recovered from the perpetrators and paid into revenue . The money provided under sub-head G is to be used mainly for the development of Ibisi and Ramahlokoana townships . The increase of R44,000 is necessitated by the fact that both the water and sewerage schemes in Ramahlokoana will be completed this year. The reduction of R10,000 under sub- head H represents the difference between a non-recurrent item of R17,000 provided for last year and an increase of 8% in respect of normal recurrent services. Sub-heads
J and K require no comment.
The 50% increase in the amount of money required under sub-head L for the Public Service Bursary Scheme is due to the stepped-up activities of the Public Service Commission in the mainly related to full-time training field studies in the newly created Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Fort Hare but also to part-time studies by serving officers . Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , it is abundantly clear that the amount to be voted in respect of my Department's Vote will be spent on essential services and I now move that Vote 1 be approved by this Committee . I regret, Mr. Chairman, that the Report of the Public Service Commission for 1968 has not been tabled , but I will reply to any questions affecting that section of my Department. This report has been delayed by the printers and will be tabled within a few days ' time . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
MR. GUZANA : The Report of the Controller and Auditor -General for 1967/1968 indicates under 1 a surrendered surplus of Vote R110,567-69 . There are explanatory notes but these explanatory notes beg the question rather than give a reason, and the boast that there has been an increase in the amount appropriated for the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance is set off by the fact that the suplus returned in the year 1967/1968 is greater than the increase shown in the 1968/1969 estimates for this department .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the hon. the Chief Minister must have felt deflated when he resumed his seat to find that there was not even a "Hoor , hoor" from the Government side . (Laughter) Probably the Government members know what actually is happening, which may well be different 111 .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Is that surplus for the Chief Minister's Department only?
as having been the driver at the time of the accident it is believed is not the person who was actually driving. (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA : Yes , this is on page 8 of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral . That amount is greater than the amount by which there has been an increase in the amount budgeted under Vote 1 in the present estimates . Let us say, in order to throw a crumb of praise to the Department of the Chief Minister, that there has been....
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: That is hearsay .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA: These irresponsibilities must rest squarely on the shoulders of this Government and they show a lack of regard for the property purchased with the public funds of the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Let me put a question: In regard to Subsistance and Transport, suppose it was not necessary to purchase new vehicles ? What are we supposed to do with the money? Mustn't we pay it back?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But you are talking nonsense . You must place the facts before the House and not tell lies. You know how this car was wrecked but you are distorting everything.
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I shall reply to this at a later stage. I was saying we should throw a crumb of praise to the hon. the Chief Minister and concede that departmental administration has been organised to a degree that is commendable .
MR. GUZANA: We have not had a statement about how this car was wrecked .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Why not go and ask the Department of Roads? You can get a statement from them. (General uproar) You come and tell a lot of lies in your position as Leader of the Opposition.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I wanted to make an explanation, because it is misleading when you say we threw so much money back. It is clear we could not spend that much money on the planning of these towns , for instance.
MR. GUZANA: Fortunately , Mr. Chairman, I do not lose my temper. The truth is always a very painful thing.
MR. GUZANA: You have thrown it back and you have asked for it again and as sure as I am standing here you will throw it back again.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But you must not come and tell lies.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Because the towns cannot be planned in a day.
MR. GUZANA: We commend the appointment of officials to higher positions as this cannot be claimed exclusively as the success of the policy of "apartheid" .
MR. GUZANA : Thus our praise goes to the heads of the different departments , rather than to the Ministers of the various departments. One wonders what chaos we would have had if only you had had your way with these departments .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are entitled to ten minutes only, but you must not come and tell lies here.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The Ministers do not have to deal with administration, for goodness ' sake.
Even under the policy of MR. GUZANA : multi-racialism Africans would be advanced to positions of responsibility.
MR . GUZANA : They do not have to, but certainly they interfere , and we find that more often than not the head of a department finds himself standing up against a Minister who wants to interfere in the administration.
You are THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : talking nonsense . It has never been done during the last 300 years .
MR. GUZANA : I hope we are getting an example of the type of behaviour we should expect in this House.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where do you get that nonsense from? That is a wild and unfounded statement .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But you are telling lies. As a responsible person you should not come and mislead the people .
MR. GUZANA: It has been suggested that this Government has shown financial responsibility in all directions , but during the last financial year we have had XG 1 completely ruined and written off, and our information is that this car was not on official duty at the time; ... • THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The car was travelling from Umtata to fetch me.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA : Any government which seeks to make progress for the people it is governing must of necessity make for progress by opening We have seen changes of up jobs for them . governments in the Republic and each period of government has registered improvement in the welfare of the people . How can this Government claim , for instance , initiative in the appointment
MR. GUZANA : ....that this car was travelling at night; we do not know who the passengers were ; (Laughter) the person who is represented 112.
one of those filthy leaflets where it was alleged that the Democratic Party was carrying lice who were the Whites of the Transkei , and from the same source now we are getting this expression of gratitude . What gratitude ! We show our gratitude in the policy that we are following.
of African magistrates when in the days of the Bunga Mr. Mnyila moved a motion which was accepted by the UTTGC to that effect, and today he is a member of the Opposition? The Government is cataloguing a number of enactments which it has put through this Assembly. Is that its rule of measurement of its success ? Why does it not tell us of its blunders when it put an end to school boards ? Why does it not concede the fact that it made an economic blunder by abolishing the two -mile radius ? I suppose this Government, if it were to count a hundred pieces of enactment through this Assembly, would say it has succeeded. I do not think that is the yardstick for measuring the success of a government. If there is a multiplicity of legislation then you are going to have contradictions in your legislative enactments . This side of the House is happy to see a marked increase in the number of pupils who are now attending school but one would like to have the correct relationship of these figures to the possible number that could have been in the classroom . For instance , we do not have the figures of the possible number of children who ought to be at school , the actual children we have and the increase ; and how can we relate this correctly to the the number who could have been in in these schools but for the fact that we have not adquate classrooms? Agriculturally we have been told that 9,000 miles of fences have been put up. I am going to criticize here constructively, so you need not be afraid. What I would like to see is not so much miles of fences but what is actually done in the soil conservation area.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What policy? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are sel outs , that is why. MR . GUZANA : We know we are indebted and will continue to be indebted for a long time to those who have shown us the way to development and advancement and in sharing our rights with those who have shown us the road to advancement we feel we will be getting more than we are getting under your policy. You have betrayed your insicerity to your policy of "apartheid" in this House. I would like to see the jackal making friends with a lamb . (Laughter) I would like to see the lion stroking the back of a sheep. I would rather ride on the back of a shark than believe what you said . (Interjections) The hon. the Chief Minister has indicated that the finances of this Government have been used for the purpose of improving our roads. We concede a slight improvement but when I walked into this House this morning after driving from Mqanduli , I was all dust and no suit. And what is this about the meat industry in the Transkei ? I have sought to buy tinned Transkei meat and I cannot find it. I have come to the knowledge that that meat industry has been going insolvent all the time. It has now been handed over to Vleis Sentraal , which is offering R12 per beast to the people of the Transkei. Yes , the Transkei is advancing - advancing to where ? I think to destruction, if Government- sponsored industries are going to undermine the stock position the way Vleis Sentraal is doing now. For goodness ' sake let us have industries , but they must be properly run on sound economic lines . We don't want this hit and miss method which this Government is following . Instead of handing over the Vulindlela factory to a syndicate of Africans , it hands it over to the XDC . It never even said that it was available for take - over to an African syndicate. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
The debate was adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 1 Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , was resumed. Mr. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall not add salt to the festering wound which we opened up before we went to lunch today . (Laughter) May I just mention one thing now, among a number of others which I would have liked to bring up. The hon. the Chief Minister , speaking to his Vote , has rightly (I say rightly) and properly expressed thanks and appreciation to missionaries , European traders , Europeans who have settled in the Transkei for what they have done for the Africans and I suppose he concedes the fact that they shall continue to do that work for all time , but you cannot draw clean water from a dirty pool and one wants to ask the question as to whether or not this expression of gratitude is genuine or whether it is merely paying lipservice to these men who have done so much for the development of the African, because I remember not so many years ago when the hon. the Chief Minister referred to the European population in the Transkei as " bugs sucking the blood of the African" . ( Laughter) THE MINISTER said that. Quote!
OF
FINANCE :
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I should like to draw your attention now to rule 30 (2 ) . Members are allowed fifteen minutes to speak in the committee stage but any member may speak not more than thrice . CHIEF M.B. MATANZIMA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have heard what our Prime Minister and your Prime Minister has said this morning. I will not refer to what was said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because it was all nonsense . I will only appeal to the members of the Opposition and say: Members of the Opposition, let my people go . We have suffered for the last three hundred years and I appeal to you to recollect yourselves . Don't be hypocrites . One White man told me that in order to get this land, or if you want a White man to think, you must shoot him with
I never
MR. GUZANA : I remember his office issuing
113.
If you try to stand CHIEF MATANZIMA: before us then it means that you are standing before a herd of stampeding cattle. You will be crushed. (Laughter) Your sons will crush There will be no room for polecats . you. We also want the good things of (Laughter) You have been talking here life, gentlemen. and one hon. member was complaining that you could not graze cattle in the Maclear district. We are all aware of the fact that when the governing side wanted more land during the You must. previous session you opposed it. talk our language. We shall demand for more Even if our demands do not meet the land. acceptance of the Republican Government, but we shall make them , but that does not mean to say that you must associate yourselves with the Republican Government when we demand for more land - that is, if the Republican Government decides not to give us more land. If you want a multi-racial parliament in these Bantustans you must go to King William's Town and to the New Deal , because there you shall rule We as the governing side with the Whites . To show you will not accept the New Deal . are not prepared to be given more land, or to accept more land, or to determine yourselves why you like the Whites I don't know. Maybe you have been bought. I will tell you one thing that if the Republican Government were to say to us: We, the Whites , are leaving this country (now I am referring to the Republic as a whole , because we are talking of the Republic , you see)
a bullet. I wonder if any of you would do that? (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. CHIEF MATANZIMA : You know you have been talking of appropriating the Transkei . I don't know whether you think any man in this House in his sober senses is not prepared to be free . You self- styled protagonists of the African cause , I want to tell you this - I don't like your statements wherever they are made , whether in this House or outside which refer to you as communists , because as a student of political science I know you are not communists. (Interjections ) Stop barking ! (Laughter) Any communist would laugh out aloud if you said you were a communist because what you actually are is make- believe communists. ( Laughter) Gentlemen, members of the Opposition, how long shall you misuse our patience ? To what end shall your unbridled boldness display itself? What you must think of is your children. Look in the street and you will find that European children here in Umtata are fat and wellYour children are starving; they nourished. are suffering from malnutrition. Our Government is trying to feed those children. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Hear, hear.
CHIEF MATANZIMA : You must join the ruling party in the fight against starvation. You will not overcome starving until you are independent in the Transkei and you must know that the ruling party stands for independence during our lifetime. You don't have to tell me that you want your sons who are serving in the civil service to remain for ever messenger-boys to White officials who are serving in this Government. They will go in due course , but because you do not want them to go they will not go , but I can assure you that we as the ruling party will make it possible for you to have no White civil servants in these government departments . Nobody can impose himself upon your sons and think that he is not a civil servant but a boss here. You must know that if you want them to remain you will still remain servants and messenger-boys . I suppose most of you here are very satisfied with the position of your women and your daughters . I am sure that you are contented with the fact that they are nannies and washerwomen. Now, let me come to this point: Most of you (or I don't know whether I am flattering you) are well versed in constitutional law. You know very well that the Constitution of the Transkei does not provide for the representation of Europeans in this House (Interjections) but because of the hollow life you live in you are prepared to say you will rule with Whites in this House who are not provided for. I believe the future when it becomes the present is folly. (Interjections)
if they were to say they are giving us the Republic and we must have a Black parliament in Cape Town and Pretoria, I can assure you you have no place in this land . We would ship you on the first ship that would leave this country for Holland. (Laughter & Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF MATANZIMA: Don't shout so much at me. Our Government is building schools for We want to improve the lot of the children. want to provide your children with We poor. jobs. I just want to know from the Opposition if they are opposed to that. It is a pity that you have got brainy men like the paramount chiefs on that side , and the Leader of the Opposition who is a very eloquent speaker, although he says next to nothing. (Laughter) You know the hon. the Leader of the Opposition today I will quote today's Daily made headlines . Dispatch: "In one of the stormiest debates in the Transkei Legislative Assembly the Opposition Democratic Party leader , Mr. Knowledge Guzana, yesterday told the Government members that even if one White man was left in Umtata he would still be in a position to dictate to the Africans. " I don't know if the hon. the Leader of the Opposition wants that to be , because it means that if the Europeans do not leave the Transkei we shall ever be subject to them , because you must always remember that there is the Republican Government to reckon with... (Interjections ) (Don't shout at me. ) ....because , gentlemen, you are sitting in a separately developed parliament. I don't know the origin of this parliament - I only read about it in the papers. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEF MATANZIMA : You must know that now we have taken a step. African nationalism will not be stopped . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Hear, hear. 114.
MR. MADIKIZELA : ...and he is generously giving credit to the people of Tsomo where the shops of the XDC will not do so. He is accepting The hon. Our extended hand of friendship . member for Cofimvaba will shout long and loud : Go away, Hempel ; go away, we don't want you. The hon. the Minister of Finance will say : Stay, seconded officers , you are of great help to me. The hon. Minister has told us that education has increased in stature since the that the Transkei Government took over Transkei Government has put up schools , that Isn't the children are flooding the schools . that natural growth, really? Is the Republican Government not performing its own part in building schools where it should build schools ? The cry of the Transkei is that the schools are not there for the children to walk in . They are turned away because there is no accommodation for the children , so the fact is that the Transkei Government is not keeping pace with the growth of the Transkei .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. You must stop these interruptions. CHIEF MATANZIMA: I will say nothing. You will decide for yourselves and think where this parliament originated, but when you sit in caucus you must always remember and sift and consider the origin of this Assembly. You say you want a Republic with multi-racialism. If you think you can get the Republic before you can get the Transkei itself, then you are lying because even in war (perhaps some of you have not seen war pictures ) you must some time or another, to gain fifty yards , fight it out. How the hell do you think you can gain a Republic if you cannot even have the Transkei ? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Hear, hear.
CHIEF MATANZIMA: Let us not come here and play marbles . Join the ruling party. MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Finance has come up with a striking portrayal of a young man moving into an inheritance , a young man proud and full of promise , but woe betide that young man because if the pastures on which he is expected to graze his stock are as denuded and as parched as the Transkei presently is his accounting will be a very pitiful one indeed. To his benevolent father he will say that many cattle have died. There is no increase in stock and the hon. Minister is very proud of that state of affairs . He says that the Transkei is fenced in to the extent of fence stretching from here to Cape Town five times , and he preens himself on that as an achievement. You don't have to go to Cape Town five times , you merely have to go to the first location on your way to the east and they will tell you all there is to tell about rehabilitation. They consented to rehabilitation and they were given five strands of wire to fence with, and the sheep and the goats skip at a run through that fence and the ranger is there , waiting to impound them . The Transkei Government is happy because its revenue is put up. The gates are broken and they are not repaired; gates are removed and they are not replaced. The stock moves into the main roads; the police are there to impound the stock and prosecute the owners. The Transkei citizen is unable to pay for the stock that is confiscated. We on this side of the House shall continue to preach and spread the gospel of multi- racialism .
Will you THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : admit that before 1963 there were no government schools established in the Transkei ? MR. MADIKIZELA: I don't know that there were none. It is the responsibility of any government to build schools for its people. If anything, the Transkei Government has failed to keep pace with the growth. The hon. Minister tells us that new posts have been created and this and that has taken place within the Transkei since he took over. We have long accepted that the Our African is ready to take up positions. policy is that opportunity must be provided and if an African magistrate is exercising justice in his jurisdiction, he must do so irrespective of the colour of the person appearing before him. If anything, it degrades our men when he has to wait for a White magistrate to come and try a case in which an African and a White man are involved. What we want is a fair exercise of justice irrespective of the colour of the man. According to the policy of separate development , if an African should see a White man doing wrong he has got to cover two miles , if the charge office is two miles away, to report to a White policeman that his brethren is doing wrong somewhere . GOVERNMENT MEMBER : not multi-racial.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : To whom are you referring these things?
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Resign from here. This is separate development.
MR. MADIKIZELA: To you.
MR. MADIKIZELA: It is true our forces are depleted, but we speak with a strong voice. We will continue to extend that hand of friendship to all and sundry in the Transkei , be they Black, be they White . The hon. the Minister of Finance says in the first place " with the kind help of the seconded officials so magnanimously placed at our disposal" · it is thanks It is curses to the White officials for that. from the hon. member for Cofimvaba towards Mr. Hempel . Mr. Hempel is equally white.... THE MINISTER White official?
OF FINANCE:
Becuase we are
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Why? We are not responsible . There would be no such troubles if we were alone in the Transkei. MR. MADIKIZELA : All we want is a policy which is fair to all and judging from the statement I have been reading out the hon. Minister will continue to be satisfied with the White man holding these positions . The hon. Minister says that the Transkei Government is giving assistance to our distressed people . It is perhaps true, but only the other day he said he was going
Is he a
115.
own pocket. I would then ask him a direct question - whether it would not serve a better purpose if the money were given to the needy. I would understand if he said the money realised from the sale of Jabulani should be given to the poor people of the Transkei. I would also like to ask whether it is the fence that is supposed to stop erosion or is the fencing which makes the grass grow? Instead of wasting time doing something that is not going to help anyone , an attempt should be made to do something which will help the poor people of this country. The money which has been spent on something nonsensically should be given to the chiefs who are in this House and the administration of locations should be done so that people should not quarrel over this fencing business . Mr. Chairman, the roads in the rural locations are in a very bad state . If this Government has money I would suggest it should be better used towards road maintenance in the rural locations. I would say that no progress whatsoever has been made by this Government.
to take drastic measures in order to get out of them that money they owe as taxes . He is not aware that that man is not paying his taxes because he is distressed . He is busy nudging the messenger of the court to get busy. How do you reconcile the two? He says the Transkei for the next year or two is poised upon a starvation brink and the Government must continue to dole out assistance to those people , and yet before this session is out he is coming along with a bill to impose more taxation. MRS. Z.A. MZOZOYANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is with very great pleasure that I stand up this afternoon to support the hon. the Chief Minister who is the son who has an inheritance from the father. There is something that the Opposition does not understand . The son is the ruler of his younger brother , and that is the Opposition. (Laughter) If only Satan had been overcome there would be none of these dissensions . You hastened to establish political parties and the road would have been very easy if you had allowed the son to receive the inheritance from the father and thereafter start establishing your different parties. Let us now come to the son who has been given this inheritance by his father. Over the last five years allow me to say "Hurray" . Don't bargain with what you have been given. It is because of the rule by the Chief Minister that I managed to destroy the Freedom Party and the Democratic Party in Matatiele. It is because of the achievements of the hon. the Chief Minister that the roaring member of the Democratic Party is no longer here today. What has he not managed to do during this short five year term ? Today we have amongst us Black inspectors of schools . Today widows who have been neglected by you , their sons , have a livelihood. Dams have been constructed according to the policy speech for water which will benefit our stock . We have 38 law students. I am not going to be long but I have been disappointed with your leader. Only yesterday he said one swallow does not mean it is summer . Just because a small thing is damaged he starts criticizing all that our Government has done . Finally, let us exchange apparel. Give me your trousers and I will give you my dress . ( Laughter)
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my memories this afternoon go back to the early 1940s up to the early 1950s when there was a frustrated, poor, forgotten, Hlubi chief in the Tsomo district. He was an unknown personality and because of the advent of Bantu authorities and because a son of the soil had come to take up the leadership of the African masses in the Transkei, this Hlubi chief was promoted from the position of headmanship to that of chieftainship and placed somewhere in Butterworth.
MR .
L.L. MGUDLWA :
A chief is born.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Today a direct son of that very frustrated chief of the early 1940s is in this House and he finds himself swimming in dollars because he has never suffered what the people have suffered. In his remarks when he was interjecting , he said I have come here because I want money . I am sure the bones of your late father in the grave would rise against you today if, when you are placed in a position of leadership , you pooh-pooh what the GovernThe hon. the Chief ment has done for you. Minister of the Transkei has tabulated certain things in his policy speech. One of the items in his ten points refers to preservation of chieftainship . When I look at some of you, tears blind my eyes because you have been shaken up from a detribalized people to a people that can boast today of nationhood. We are fully aware of what happened in places and we don't want a repetition of the Nongqause episode when the African nation.... ( Interjections)
CHIEF H.Z. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak after the hon. lady who has just spoken and she was so spirited , speaking in the high tone of religion. That did not surprise us because we know she belongs to a women's religious association and attends such meetings on Thursdays . When she speaks she talks of a son and in her mind she thinks of the son who is described in the Bible . I can say in short that we have no interest in her religious speech. In regard to what has been done by the Transkei Government , it has caused an emergency in the country. In his speech the hon. the Chief Minister said the fences erected in the Transkei could reach as far as from here to Cape Town and back five times . I would understand him better if he said this fence has caused many people to die , and the dead bodies could stretch from here to Cape Town. I could understand better still if the money spent on this fence had come out of his
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Listen ! You are one of those who has risen from the mire and the dust. You went to Pretoria as a headman and you came back as a chief. We ought to feel proud, we ought to feel happy about the achievements of the Transkei Government. We are very mindful and we are very grateful to the Nationalist Government of the Republic of South Africa for having resuscitated chieftainship 116.
OPPOSITION MEMBER :
through the implementation of the Bantu Authorities Act, because before they came into power we were like a detribalized people in the southern hemisphere. The people of the Transkei under the leadership of the hon. the Chief Minister are on the march towards achieving a certain goal which will be independence . At the present moment we have to get our men trained in all the sphres of administration so that when the time is mature we can have complete territorial "apartheid". What our aim is (because we are people with foresight and vision on this side of the House) is that the Republican Government must just be sincere in its policy of the implementation of separate development.
Where is he now?
MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: The fact that the car had an accident does not mean negligence . (Interjections ) Anybody can have an accident. All I can say is that if someone is born a fool he will remain a fool for ever. Let us come to brass tacks . We are here in the interests of the Transkei people as a whole . We have come here because we have a mandate for our people to represent them here. We have a practical policy this side to give to our people. You have bugger all on that side . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , please withdraw that expression .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Hear, hear. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Which one ? CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : of Nongqause .
That is the policy
THE CHAIRMAN:
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: You will say that is Nongqause because there are people like you who have been polluted by the Western way of thought. Listen ! We must start from a certain nucleus and from that nucleus we develop , and once we have developed thoroughly there will be a time when your son will say "Hurray ! " to the exponents of separate development. You talk of a multi-racial society and I told you in my maiden speech that you are dishonest ; you are not sincere ; you should have resigned because the policy here is that of separate development. You have been told of the achievements of this Government. We have today a number of your sons working in these departmental offices. All I have to tell you is this - just about 4.30 p.m. go down York Road and see the young men who are employed in these offices - places occupied by the Europeans in the past. If there were not people whom I respect on that side of the House I would say that if God creates a fool , that man will remain a fool. If a person has been created with an inferior mind he will remain with athat inferior mind no matter what efforts he makes to improve. (Interjections)
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : ness . (Interjections) THE
CHAIRMAN:
It means nothing-
Anyway, withdraw it.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. I am merely annoyed by the remarks from the opposte side . However, I withdraw the remark. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , each time I speak I speak after that He went on hon. member from Cofimvaba. tracing the history of certain members and I am tempted to trace his history during the time he was in East London so that this House should know him better . However , I will hold that in abeyance. He has introduced a number of motions and I am going to speak about the policy statement given by the hon. the Chief Minister . He compared himself with a son who has been left an inheritance by his father. We know his father to be the late Dr. Verwoerd . I want to tell him uncompromisingly that he has failed to maintain that family , because the family with whom he was left is starving. We are starving today. To show that we are in fact starving , it has been stated that even the XDC which should have given us assistance has failed to do so. Instead, the Agricultural Department has wasted its time in planting aloes. These aloes are going to be used to barter for mealies from the Free State . Instead of ploughing the land you waste time making baskets in order to exhange them for food. Secondly, those agricultural officers who have been trained as demonstrators only go about telling people they should have their lands fenced , instead of showing them how to plough their land. Inthe Dalindyebo region their agricultural officer has been called to give an account. He was asked about a certain place which he stated had accepted rehabilitation and yet the people of those places did not know anything about that. In his reply the officer stated that he had received instructions to go from home to home during the night. You are all aware of the fact that on account of the present drought, all the men are away at the labour centres and these men went to see the women at night. Yet there were certain representatives who had been left by the men to look
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Who amongst you does not see these great achievements which have been made in the Transkei ? We have mentioned several schools that have been put up in the past by the Government, whereas in the past people were made to contribute to their own schools. You ask where these schools are . As rotten meat is thrown away, you will be thrown away by the electorate of the Transkei . I will tell you about the Chief Minister's car , XG 1 , which had an accident. You are merely following newspaper reports , but we will tell you what we know. The car you refer to left for Qamata to bring the Chief Minister to Umtata. Immediately I got to the scene of the accident - five minutes after it had taken place . The driver of the Chief Minister is like any other person. No one can predict an accident. Who among you would be able to do so?
OPPOSITION MEMBER:
"bugger all" .
Who was driving?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The official chauffeur of the Chief Minister was driving . 117.
after their wives. If such a man is found in these huts at night and is killed , it will be stated that he has been killed by members of Poqo. I want to stress that the fence will never hold water. What should be done is that which was done when we were still youngsters . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : against fencing then?
Are you
MR. MNYANI : I am not against fencing because I have fenced in my arable allotment. I have not fenced it for water but to stop stock from trespassing into it. What prevents soil erosion is the contours made on the lands , not the fences. Where it is fenced the cattle are placed into a camp where the grass has been eaten up . In order that another camp in a rehabilitated area is opened for grazing the agricultural officer expects to be given a sheep and a bottle of brandy. I go further to say that the reason there is so much soil erosion is because of the methods of ploughing. I am a farmer and I will not follow everything that is said, even if it is said by a White man. The present generation want to get all the fat out of the soil. These competitions cause people to break up the soil and plough over and over again , so much so that the soil is easily washed away. They do not observe what should be planted in order to stop the washing away of the soil when the land is on a slope. If Kaffircorn is sown on a slope and not planted, the roots will hold the soil so that it is not washed away. Even if you do not work that land which has been sown with Kaffircorn the Kaffircorn will stand any amount of heat. Another matter which I want to touch on is that the Government has introduced these agricultural officers and has taken away the authority of the chiefs. Now the people will only listen to these officers and not to the chiefs. They will ask for kraal sites from these officers and these same officers are eating sheep belonging to the people. The hon. member, Chief Mtet'uvumile , asked whether we are pleased to see our children being nannies . We don't like it , but what can we do? The hon. the Chief Minister does not open up factories in which clothing will be made . When self-government was given, these people forgot to consult big traders like the wholesalers in the Transkei . They just said they would have to go. These people would never find it difficult to do what is required. Another remark made by the hon. Chief Mteto which I liked was when he spoke of army strategy. He explained this springboard. Now I find myself in difficulty. How can he have a war without any blood?
by the hon. the Chief Minister this morning. I am at a loss to understand the speech of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because he did not rise up to support the speech made by the hon. the Chief Minister , yet all the Chief Minister said amounted to things that are tangible. There is not a single person in the Transkei today who does not appreciate the fact that the Government of the Transkei is working in the interests of the people and the opponents of all this are the very persons who went up to Pretoria to ask for this policy, and when they went there they were undecided . Today they are fighting against their own decisions . Apparently they all wanted to be Prime Ministers. They are going round the country collecting wrong information. Our aim is to lead our nation. They do not tell the electorate that they are coming here to oppose . They tell them that they are coming here to fight for their interests, but when they come here they fight against the privileges of the electorate. The previous speaker told the House that in the rural areas the agricultural officers have sheep slaughtered for them but we know he knows nothing about the rural areas because he lives in town. Our only aim is to lead our nation to success and without any White man with us. We want to show the people the achievements ofthe Transkei Government. This gives us concern on the Government side because you are the people who went to Pretoria to ask for this. We are not going to change , but we are going to continue along this road. Be careful , because the people will soon find you out. We will tell the people outside that you have not come to look after their interests and you should resign. Your aim is merely to get money for yourselves . You are in a hurry to see your policy put into practice , but you have mistimed it and you will not get into power unless you follow our policy because what you follow does not exist. In the areas outside you don't tell the people you have come to oppose here . You say you have come to defend their rights. (Interjections) You talk all sorts of nonsense but you say nothing. I think we should speak with one voice and speak one language . I think you should adopt the policy of separate development. That is our only salvation. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to say a few words in connection with this policy statement. I have noticed a certain amount of wonderful confusion amongst the people. They dwell much on personalities , which does not help anyone . What is required is that we should stick to the subject of the Appropriation Bill.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Mentally. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Tell that to your leader . He is very fond of going for personalities.
MR. MNYANI: It is quite clear that he wants South Africa as much as we want it. The only difference between us is that we have got unselfish feelings . We want to stay together in this country. It is quite obvious that if you remove all the "ifs" in his statement the White people would be driven away from this country particularly the Afrikaners .
MR. JAFTA: I will comment on what the hon. the Minister of Finance said in his policy statement. He spoke at length about tea and coffee-growing in Lambasi. Though these schemes may be good ones , you have no claim to them because they belong to the Republican Government. (Interjections) You did not begin afforestation. That was started bythe Republican
MR. J.M. DINIZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the speech made
118.
OPPOSITION MEMBER :
through the implementation of the Bantu Authorities Act, because before they came into power we were like a detribalized people in the southern hemisphere. The people of the Transkei under the leadership of the hon . the Chief Minister are on the march towards achieving a certain
Where is he now?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The fact that the car had an accident does not mean negligence . (Interjections ) Anybody can have an accident. All I can say is that if someone is born a fool he will remain a fool for ever. Let us come to brass tacks. We are here in the interests of the Transkei people as a whole . We have come here because we have a mandate for our people to represent them here . We have a practical policy this side to give to our people. You have bugger all on that side .
goal which will be independence . At the present moment we have to get our men trained in all the sphres of administration so that when the time is mature we can have complete territorial "apartheid". What our aim is (because we are people with foresight and vision on this side of the House) is that the Republican Government must just be sincere in its policy of the implementation of separate development .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , please withdraw that expression.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Hear, hear. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Which one ? CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : of Nongqause .
That is the policy THE CHAIRMAN: " bugger all " . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: ness . (Interjections)
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: You will say that is Nongqause because there are people like you who have been polluted by the Western way of thought. Listen ! We must start from a certain nucleus and from that nucleus we develop , and once we have developed thoroughly there will be a time when your son will say "Hurray!" to the exponents of separate development. You talk of a multi-racial society and I told you in my maiden speech that you are dishonest; you are not sincere ; you should have resigned because the policy here is that of separate development. You have been told of the achievements of this Government. We have today a number of your sons working in these departmental offices . All I have to tell you is this → just about 4.30 p.m. go down York Road and see the young men who are employed in these offices - places occupied by the Europeans in the past. If there were not people whom I respect on that side of the House I would say that if God creates a fool , that man will remain a fool . If a person has been created with an inferior mind he will remain with athat inferior mind no matter what efforts he makes to improve. (Interjections )
THE
Anyway, withdraw it.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. I am merely annoyed by the remarks from the opposte side . However, I withdraw the remark. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , each time I speak I speak after that He went on hon. member from Cofimvaba. tracing the history of certain members and I am tempted to trace his history during the time he was in East London so that this House should know him better. However , I will hold that in abeyance . He has introduced a number of motions and I am going to speak about the policy statement given by the hon. the Chief Minister . He compared himself with a son who has been left an inheritance by his father . We know his father to be the late Dr. Verwoerd . I want to tell him uncompromisingly that he has failed to maintain that family, because the family with whom he was left is starving. We are starving today. To show that we are in fact starving, it has been stated that even the XDC which should have given us assistance has failed to do so. Instead, the Agricultural Department has wasted its time in planting aloes. These aloes are going to be used to barter for mealies from the Free State . Instead of ploughing the
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Who amongst you does not see these great achievements which have been made in the Transkei ? We have mentioned several schools that have been put up in the past by the Government , whereas in the past people were made to contribute to their own schools . You ask where these schools are . As rotten meat is thrown away, you will be thrown away by the electorate of the Transkei . I will tell you about the Chief Minister's car , XG 1 , which had an accident. You are merely following newspaper reports , but we will tell you what we know. The car you refer to left for Qamata to bring the Chief Minister to Umtata. Immediately I got to the scene of the accident - five minutes after it had taken place . The driver of the Chief Minister is like any other person.
land you waste time making baskets in order to exhange them for food. Secondly, those agricultural officers who have been trained as demonstrators only go about telling people they should have their lands fenced , instead of showing them how to plough their land. Inthe Dalindyebo region their agricultural officer has been called to give an account. He was asked about a certain place which he stated had accepted rehabilitation and yet the people of those places did not know anything about that. In his reply the officer stated that he had received instructions to go from home to home during the night. You are all aware of the fact that on account of the present drought, all the men are away at the labour centres and these men went to see the women at night. Yet there were certain representatives who had been left by the men to look
No one can predict an accident. Who among you would be able to do so? OPPOSITION MEMBER :
CHAIRMAN:
It means nothing-
Who was driving ?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The official chauffeur of the Chief Minister was driving.
117.
If such a man is found in after their wives. is killed , it will be stated and at night huts these that he has been killed by members of Poqo. I want to stress that the fence will never hold water . What should be done is that which was done when we were still youngsters . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : against fencing then?
by the hon. the Chief Minister this morning. I am at a loss to understand the speech of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because he did not rise up to support the speech made by the hon. the Chief Minister , yet all the Chief Minister said amounted to things that are tangible. There is not a single person in the Transkei today who does not appreciate the fact that the Government of the Transkei is working in the interests of the people and the opponents of all this are the very persons who went up to Pretoria to ask for this policy , and when they went there they were undecided . Today they are fighting against their own decisions. Apparently they all wanted to be Prime Ministers. They are going round the country collecting wrong information. Our aim is to lead our nation. They do not tell the electorate that they are coming here to oppose. They tell them that they are coming here to fight for their interests, but when they come here they fight against the privileges of the electorate. The previous speaker told the House that in the rural areas the agricultural officers have sheep slaughtered for them but we know he knows nothing about the rural areas because he lives in town. Our only aim is to lead our nation to success and without any White man with us. We want to show the people the achievements ofthe Transkei Government . This gives us concern on the Government side because you are the people who went to Pretoria to ask for this . We are not going to change, but we are going to continue along this road. Be careful , because the people will soon find you out. We will tell the people outside that you have not come to look after their interests and you should resign. Your aim is merely to get money for yourselves . You are in a hurry to see your policy put into practice , but you have mistimed it and you will not get into power unless you follow our policy because what you follow does not exist. In the areas outside you don't tell the people you have come to oppose here. You say you have come to defend their rights . (Interjections) You talk all sorts of nonsense but you say nothing. I think we should speak with one voice and speak one language . I think you should adopt the policy of separate development. That is our only salvation.
Are you
MR . MNYANI : " I am not against fencing because I have fenced in my arable allotment. I have not fenced it for water but to stop stock from trespassing into it. What prevents soil erosion is the contours made on the lands , not the fences. Where it is fenced the cattle are placed into a camp where the grass has been eaten up . In order that another camp in a rehabilitated area is opened for grazing the agricultural officer expects to be given a sheep and a bottle of brandy. I go further to say that the reason there is so much soil erosion is because of the methods of ploughing. I am a farmer and I will not follow everything that is said, even if it is said by a White man. The present generation want to get all the fat out of the soil. These competitions cause people to break up the soil and plough over and over again, so much so that the soil is easily washed away. They do not observe what should be planted in order to stop the washing away of the soil when the land is on a slope. If Kaffircorn is sown on a slope and not planted, the roots will hold the soil so that it is not washed away. Even if you do not work that land which has been sown with Kaffircorn the Kaffircorn will stand any amount of heat. Another matter which I want to touch on is that the Government has introduced these agricultural officers and has taken away the authority of the chiefs . Now the people will only listen to these officers and not to the chiefs . They will ask for kraal sites from these officers and these same officers are eating sheep belonging to the people . The hon. member, Chief Mtet'uvumile , asked whether we are pleased to see our children being nannies. We don't like it, but what can we do? The hon. the Chief Minister does not open up factories in which clothing will be made . When self-government was given, these people forgot to consult big traders like the wholesalers in the Transkei. They just said they would have to go. These people would never find it difficult to do what is required. Another remark made by the hon. Chief Mteto which I liked was when he spoke of army strategy . He explained this springboard. Now I find myself in difficulty. How can he have a war without any blood?
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA: members , I rise to say a few words in connection I have noticed a with this policy statement. certain amount of wonderful confusion amongst the people. They dwell much on personalities , which does not help anyone . What is required is that we should stick to the subject of the Appropriation Bill.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Mentally. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Tell that to your leader. He is very fond of going for personalities.
MR. MNYANI : It is quite clear that he wants South Africa as much as we want it. The only difference between us is that we have got unselfish feelings . We want to stay together in this country . It is quite obvious that if you remove all the " ifs " in his statement the White people would be driven away from this country particularly the Afrikaners.
MR. JAFTA: I will comment on what the hon. the Minister of Finance said in his policy statement. He spoke at length about tea and coffee-growing in Lambasi . Though these schemes may be good ones , you have no claim to them because they belong to the Republican Government. (Interjections) You did not begin afforestation. That was started bythe Republican
MR. J.M. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the speech made
118.
Government. you .
Even the XDC does not belong to
explaining ways and means of extricating them from their present state of starvation . Those are matters of great value which the Government should discuss . In regard to the Qamata dam ……….
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are correct as far as that is concerned.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : MR. JAFTA: In your statement you said the White people have entrenched themselves in the Republic and they made sure that they have in fact been entrenched. You also want to entrench yourselves in the Transkei in a similar manner.
Lubisi dam .
MR. JAFTA: ....that dam should be exemplary. You should be able to say that since its completion this and that have been obtained . You must bring to this House something substantial , because a lot of money has been spent on the building of that dam and we expect to be shown the good results you have had from it. The other dams you mentioned too are things you cannot really boast about because that is something which the Republican Government has done. Something was said about schools and a lot of praise was given, but what we require is that more schools should be built because now people realise the value of education. When you went away you stated that the Government was going to be solely responsible for the building of schools , and the people would not have to be taxed for them. When the arable allotments are fenced in it should be noted that consultation with the people should first take place .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Sure ! MR. JAFTA: If they do so entrench themselves why must you encourage such an action? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Why not? MR. JAFTA: Because this place is so small it is as small as a little tin. You must also remember that any government is forced to do things on behalf of the people because if the Government fails to do so it would not be standing for anything. Don't run away when we criticize certain defects. The Transkei citizens are suffering from poverty. This country is poorer than any other country. The people starve and they are sick. You must consider this : Why should these people suffer from hunger and yet on the other hand you say this country is so fertile ? (Interjections)
MR. S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to speak about what has been explained by the hon. the Chief Minister in this House and I wish to associate myself with the explanation given by him this morning, in particular when he mentioned the increase in the number of children at school . I wish to emphasize that the Government encourages education because it wants the children to continue their studies . I wish to explain that to get our rights for the Black people is something which happens automatically now. You must know that the magistrate's office at Elliotdale is staffed by Black people and there are also Black doctors . Another point which has not been alluded to by the other side is the question of the building of schools . At Ntlonyana preparations have been made for the erection of a school and nothing has been demanded from the people as payment. Before I became a member of this House I believed the Opposition only was correct. I believe certain people were sent by the Bunga to go to Pretoria.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. JAFTA: Amongst other things the Government has to consider this state of poverty. For the last 30 to 40 years the people have been suffering from starvation from year to year. That is a very long time and as they are suffering this year from starvation , be sure that next year they will suffer the same . You must consider ways and means of solving this problem . People cannot get employment. Thousands and thousands of people in the 26 districts of the Transkei cannot find work. People are sick and there is need of hospitals . All those things are of the greatest importance and should be considered by this House . It is stated that our country is one of those which is fortunate in the supply of water. One dam has been completed and that dam is situated in Qamata. Such a matter has to receive attention so that there should be more food produced to support these people . It is not sufficient that we should boast of growing tea, coffee and sugar if we have not got mealies. (Interjections ) We must be able to produce mealies so that all our home needs are covered. It serves us no good to encourage the cultivation of phormium tenax in Butterworth when we are unable to produce sufficient vegetables . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute , hon. member. I want to appeal to the members of this House not to continue making a noise and if I send one out he must know quite well he is going to lose his day's allowance , or part of it. Please try to control yourselves as men. Carry on. MR. DOKOLWANA: The hon. member who is looking at me now was a member of the committee appointed when this House was being discussed. I have no doubt about what I am saying. When any matter has been brought by the Opposition it is then we realise why their numbers are so reduced . It is because the people could not understand. The hon. the Leader of the
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. JAFTA: You hear clearly what I say. We must start with little things which are of greater importance to the poor person who is struggling . You only want to deal with large matters and leave undone those little things which the people are in greater need of. In the committee meetings you find it difficult to get people to speak of what is necessary for a Black man. You tell people a lot of other things instead of
Opposition knows what he was told during the election by the Bomvanas when he went there . What was said then does not worry me today when it was said they were going to destroy 119.
CHIEF NDAMASE: During the last election there were occurrences which made us feel very uneasy when we think about them. I must at the same time admire the hon. the Chief Minister for the way in which he contested . He knew and went to the chief of the Pondo people and carried him along with him throughout the Pondo area so that he would succeed in having himself re-elected . He went further and took the chief of the Pondo people to areas outside his jurisdiction , thus making the Pondo chief an amusement to those who looked at him . What is required of the Government is to create peace and not misunderstanding among the people by going around causing misunderstanding. The Chief Minister became successful.
education and do away with the reference books and that the taxes in connection with a certain school would be abolished . I can tell you he did not know how it was arranged between me and Chief Zwelenqaba. Even today we have 25 schools and we have had good support from the Education Department · I think better than you have in your places . I cannot see why the present Government should be criticized. Even today you are raising objections to things which at first you wanted done . I must tell you today that in our district we have clinics . In fact, a child starts by walking in front of his father and the child does not show any thankfulness that he is given something to hold in his hands. I say today that if God spares the hon. the Chief Minister he will still be the Chief Minister at the next election. I want to be very clear about what you people are on that side. You speak about the Trust and some of you people have no Trust in your own locations . I wish to tell you that I will say nothing about the Trust when at my place no step towards that direction can be taken. At first at Elliotdale I was told
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you discussing the policy speech of the Minister of Finance ? CHIEF NDAMASE: I am discussing the policy. Multi-racialism is the only policy that will keep happy relations between the Black and White in this country because we ought to live peacefully. The hon. the Minister of Finance states that we have had Bantu school inspectors appointed during his regime. I do not think such a step came about because of the existence of this Government. It would have come about anyway .
I must first go to Nyandeni and remove the chief of Nyandeni from the fence within which he was fenced because you cannot be in a position to represent the people when you are within a fenced area. If anyone should say anything about rehabilitation it is we people who have not yet been rehabilitated.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Are there any Bantu inspectors , in the Republic? Answer that.
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
CHIEF NDAMASE : There are.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 7th May, 1969.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , they are assistant inspectors .
WEDNESDAY, 7th MAY , 1969
CHIEF NDAMASE : In his address he states that we have twelve acting magistrates which have come into being because of the existence of this Government. Seeing that people are qualified for these posts , would they not have been appointed even if this Government had not come into existence ? In his budget we note that an arrangement has been made for one assistant magistrate , but in his policy speech he says there are twelve.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . TRANSKEI
APPROPRIATION BILL MITTEE OF SUPPLY
:
COM-
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee in order to consider the Appropriation Bill .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is because you don't follow English.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF NDAMASE: On page 7 of the Transkei Estimates of Expenditure it says one. Even if your Government were not in existence we would still have these magistrates . He also states that the numbers of school -going children has increased tremendously during the lifetime of his parliament. It is quite true the numbers have risen, but not because of the Government.
Agreed to. House in Committee The debate was resumed. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the address of the hon. the Minister of Finance he made a statement to the effect that the citizens of the Transkei have shown without doubt that they have full confidence in the Government. I oppose that statement and make bold to say that if a referendum were taken on the two policies ours would win the day. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : that last year and you lost.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are a real opposition. You are opposing the truth . CHIEF NDAMASE : True enough the number of school-going children has increased, but the expenditure per child has not increased accordingly. We still have the same amount spent per child as before . If I am not mistaken, in 1963 it was stated that only R17 was spent per
We did
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Government. you .
explaining ways and means of extricating them from their present state of starvation. Those are matters of great value which the Government should discuss . In regard to the Qamata dam....
Even the XDC does not belong to
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: You are correct as far as that is concerned.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Lubisi dam . MR. JAFTA: In your statement you said the White people have entrenched themselves in the Republic and they made sure that they have in fact been entrenched. You also want to entrench yourselves in the Transkei in a similar manner.
MR. JAFTA: ....that dam should be exemYou should be able to say that since plary. its completion this and that have been obtained. You must bring to this House something substantial, because a lot of money has been spent on the building of that dam and we expect to be shown the good results you have had from it. The other dams you mentioned too are things you cannot really boast about because that is something which the Republican Government has Something was said about schools and done. a lot of praise was given, but what we require is that more schools should be built because now people realise the value of education. When you went away you stated that the Government was going to be solely responsible for the building of schools , and the people would not have to be taxed for them . When the arable allotments are fenced in it should be noted that consultation with the people should first take place .
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Sure ! MR. JAFTA: If they do so entrench themselves why must you encourage such an action? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Why not? MR. JAFTA: Because this place is so small it is as small as a little tin. You must also remember that any government is forced to do things on behalf of the people because if the Government fails to do so it would not be standing for anything. Don't run away when we criticize certain defects. The Transkei citizens are suffering from poverty. This country is poorer than any other country. The people starve and they are sick. You must consider this : Why should these people suffer from hunger and yet on the other hand you say this country is so fertile? (Interjections )
MR. S. DOKOLWANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to speak about what has been explained by the hon. the Chief Minister in this House and I wish to associate myself with the explanation given by him this morning, in particular when he mentioned the increase in the number of children at school . I wish to emphasize that the Government encourages education because it wants the children to continue their studies . I wish to explain that to get our rights for the Black people is something which happens automatically now. You must know that the magistrate's office at Elliotdale is staffed by Black people and there are also Black doctors . Another point which has not been alluded to by the other side is the question of the building of schools. At Ntlonyana preparations have been made for the erection of a school and nothing has been demanded from the people as payment. Before I became a member of this House I believed the Opposition only was correct. I believe certain people were sent by the Bunga to go to Pretoria.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. JAFTA: Amongst other things the Government has to consider this state of poverty. For the last 30 to 40 years the people have been suffering from starvation from year to year. That is a very long time and as they are suffering this year from starvation , be sure that next year they will suffer the same . You must consider ways and means of solving this problem . People cannot get employment. Thousands and thousands of people in the 26 districts of the Transkei cannot find work. People are sick and there is need of hospitals . All those things are of the greatest importance and should be considered by this House . It is stated that our country is one of those which is fortunate in the supply of water . One dam has been completed and that dam is situated in Qamata. Such a matter has to receive attention so that there should be more food produced to support these people. It is not sufficient that we should boast of growing tea , coffee and sugar ifwe have not got mealies . (Interjections) We must be able to produce mealies so that all our home needs are covered. It serves us no good to encourage the cultivation of phormium tenax in Butterworth when we are unable to produce sufficient vegetables . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Just a minute , hon. member. I want to appeal to the members of this House not to continue making a noise and if I send one out he must know quite well he is going to lose his day's allowance , or part of it. Please try to control yourselves as men. Carry on. MR. DOKOLWANA: The hon. member who is looking at me now was a member of the committee appointed when this House was being discussed. I have no doubt about what I am saying. When any matter has been brought by the Opposition it is then we realise why their numbers are so reduced . It is because the people could not understand . The hon. the Leader of the Opposition knows what he was told during the election by the Bomvanas when he went there. What was said then does not worry me today when it was said they were going to destroy
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. JAFTA: You hear clearly what I say. We must start with little things which are of greater importance to the poor person who is struggling. You only want to deal with large matters and leave undone those little things which the people are in greater need of. In the committee meetings you find it difficult to get people to speak of what is necessary for a Black man. You tell people a lot of other things instead of
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CHIEF NDAMASE : During the last election there were occurrences which made us feel very uneasy when we think about them. I must at the same time admire the hon. the Chief Minister for the way in which he contested . He knew and went to the chief of the Pondo people and carried him along with him throughout the Pondo area so that he would succeed in having himself re-elected. He went further and took the chief of the Pondo people to areas outside his jurisdiction, thus making the Pondo chief an amuseWhat is ment to those who looked at him . required of the Government is to create peace and not misunderstanding among the people by going around causing misunderstanding. The Chief Minister became successful .
education and do away with the reference books and that the taxes in connection with a certain school would be abolished . I can tell you he did not know how it was arranged between me and Chief Zwelenqaba . Even today we have 25 schools and we have had good support from the Education Department - I think better than you have in your places . I cannot see why the present Government should be criticized . Even today you are raising objections to things which at first you wanted done . I must tell you today that in our district we have clinics. In fact, a child starts by walking in front of his father and the child does not show any thankfulness that he is given something to hold in his hands. I say today that if God spares the hon. the Chief Minister he will still be the Chief Minister at the next election. I want to be very clear about what you people are on that side . You speak about the Trust and some of you people have no Trust in your own locations . I wish to tell you that I will say nothing about the Trust when at my place no step towards that direction can be taken. At first at Elliotdale I was told I must first go to Nyandeni and remove the chief of Nyandeni from the fence within which he was fenced because you cannot be in a position to represent the people when you are within a fenced area. If anyone should say anything about rehabilitation it is we people who have not yet been rehabilitated.
THE CHAIRMAN : Are you discussing the policy speech of the Minister of Finance ? CHIEF NDAMASE: I am discussing the policy. Multi-racialism is the only policy that will keep happy relations between the Black and White in this country because we ought to live peacefully. The hon. the Minister of Finance states that we have had Bantu school inspectors appointed during his regime . I do not think such a step came about because of the existence of this Government. It would have come about anyway . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Are there any Bantu inspectors in the Republic ? Answer that.
The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
CHIEF NDAMASE : There are .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 7th May, 1969.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , they are assistant inspectors .
WEDNESDAY, 7th MAY, 1969
CHIEF NDAMASE : In his address he states that we have twelve acting magistrates which have come into being because of the existence Seeing that people are of this Government . qualified for these posts , would they not have been appointed even if this Government had not come into existence ? In his budget we note that an arrangement has been made for one assistant magistrate , but in his policy speech he says there are twelve.
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL MITTEE OF SUPPLY
:
COM-
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee in order to consider the Appropriation Bill.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is because you don't follow English.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF NDAMASE : On page 7 of the Transkei Estimates of Expenditure it says one . Even if your Government were not in existence we would still have these magistrates . He also states that the numbers of school-going children has increased tremendously during the lifetime of his parliament. It is quite true the numbers have risen, but not because of the Government.
Agreed to . House in Committee The debate was resumed. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the address of the hon. the Minister of Finance he made a statement to the effect that the citizens of the Transkei have shown without doubt that they have full confidence in the Government. I oppose that statement and make bold to say that if a referendum were taken on the two policies ours would win the day. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : that last year and you lost .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are a real opposition. You are opposing the truth. CHIEF NDAMASE : True enough the number of school -going children has increased , but the expenditure per child has not increased accordWe still have the same amount spent ingly. per child as before . If I am not mistaken, in 1963 it was stated that only R17 was spent per
We did
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THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I come to reply to the remarks from the opposite side ( I deliberately say "opposite side " because we have no opposition in this House ) I want to move that these amendments (d ) , (e ) , (f) and (g) be deleted from the order paper because they do not comply with the rules. Rule 141 reads as follows: "No amendment shall be moved in the committee stage under this standing rule until one clear day after that on which it was published in the order paper. " If these amendments. were considered yesterday I should have moved that the rule be suspended because we did not have sufficient time for them to be put before the House, but in view of the fact that these amendments should have been submitted on Monday in order to comply with this rule I feel that I should oppose them and I move that these four amendments be not considered by this House .
child and I think the figure still stands at that. That makes it clear therefore that the children who were at school in 1963 enjoyed better financial facilities than they are enjoying today. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Your arithmetic is cock-eyed. CHIEF NDAMASE : If I go by the Press reports , it is stated that R10 per child is spent on each Coloured child for the purpose of vitamin tablets over and above the other facilities extended to them. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Where are these reports ? CHIEF NDAMASE : I note , however , that the Government is very proud in the rise in the enrolment of school-going children, but they are not bothering themselves about facilities for these children. Refering to the Lubisi dam , the hon. the Minister of Finance stated that arrangements have been made in order to have a supply of water made available to the people . However, he does not state that this Government is taking measures to supply the other regions of the Transkei with similar facilities. Yes , we may therefore believe that while he is Chief Minister he is taking measures to ensure the comfort of his own children and one day when I become Minister I shall do likewise . (Laughter) During the time of this Government it is noteworthy that they have taken no measures to ensure that the labourers are properly looked after. In the Transkei they have done nothing to appoint a Wage Board and they have not laid down a minimum wage for our children who are employed in the services of the Transkei. Their own employees have a lower minimum wage than that enjoyed by employees of the Republican Government. The Government members themselves are paid below the minimum salary enjoyed by members of the Republican Government.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , if I remember correctly the second reading was completed on Friday and then the committee stage should have been fixed on a date that would give members sufficient time to comply with rule 141. The committee stage began yesterday , Sir, and we were not therefore given sufficient time to comply with this rule . I remember drawing the attention of the hon. the Chief Minister to this fact and then he suggested that the committee stage should begin today . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That was in connection with the first three amendments . MR. GUZANA : When I suggested that we begin on Tuesday in order to save time as we had saved it in the second reading of the bill, he specifically indicated to me that he would move a waiver of this rule for this bill. I am surprised that he should somersault on that agreement now.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Quote. CHIEF NDAM ASE : page ....
I want you to look at
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : misleading now.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, give us the Republican figures. We know our figures. CHIEF NDAMASE : The minimum wage of labourers in the Republic is 90 cents . Referring to the drought , your emergency measures pick and choose among the different areas of the Transkei. Seeing that the feeding scheme is such a good measure , why not make it applicable to all the school - children of the Transkei ? It is maintained that the Bantu people have a low income generally. You said the roads are in good condition. Seeing that your previous Minister of Roads worked so well, why have you not retained his services ? You say you are putting up a technical school. How long has it been in process of erection and when will it be put into use? If we had to discontinue the building programme, why was it necessary? (Interjections) Referring to economic development, they maintain progress has been achieved, whereas even the market in Umtata came to an end during your time .
You are
MR. GUZANA: Most of these arrangements are made in good faith and one would expect them to be honoured. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I just want to reply to the remark that I have somersaulted over the agreement which we made with the Leader of the Opposition. That concerned the first three amendments - that is , (a), (b) and (c ) which appeared on the order paper yesterday. I never said that should there be any other amendments which might come forward subsequently I would still say we should waive the rule . The three amendments....
MR. Friday.
GUZANA:
Our discussion was on
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Keep quiet. 'We discussed this matter yesterday. MR. GUZANA: No , Sir. 121 .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You brought to my notice these three amendments yesterday.
of this Department to return a surplus almost every year to the Treasury.
MR. GUZANA : You discussed them with me on Friday.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : There is always a reason for that and the explanation is always reasonable . The fault with the hon. member is that he thinks he is the only person who has got the brains and the know-how. He is the only person, if he could have his multi-racial government, who could perform things even if they were impossible . The hon. member knows that the planning of a town takes time and we have got to put the vote on the estimates , in anticipation of the action which may be taken, and if it becomes impossible for the department to proceed with that particular project nobody can have to shoulder responsibiOf course, it is just typical of lity for that. the hon. member to put the blame on people even if they are not to blame.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , that is why I postponed the committee stage till Tuesday , but it should have been on Monday and in order to give you a chance to put in your amendments I made it yesterday and then this member came with these three amendments , ( a), (b) and (c). I told him then if they were put forward yesterday I would propose that the rule be waived. I never gave a latitude that the Opposition should keep making amendments and disregard the rules. They should have made these amendments on Monday. How did these other three amendments come forward? All these amendments should have been submitted on Monday before 4 o'clock.
MR. GUZANA : May I put a question to the Minister of Finance?
THE CHAIRMAN: It has been moved and seconded that the last four amendments will not come before the House as they do not comply with rule 141. Does the House agree?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : For example , he capitalizes politically....
It has not been
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member, he wants to put a question to you.
THE CHAIRMAN: It was seconded. Those in favour of leaving out these last four amendments?
MR. GUZANA : The explanation G , on page 9, is that work on the Bisi Township could not go ahead as scheduled as the township when originally planned had not been properly surveyed. Is that not an indication of a careless disregard of the financial implications of township, when this Government even up to 1968 has not properly surveyed a township?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : seconded.
The motion was carried. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I now wish briefly to reply to certain remarks which were made by the hon. members of the Opposition concerning the policy speech which I made yesterday. I am pleased to find that there was so little to criticize in my policy speech that practically all the crows across the floor were bungling. The only notable reply which I should make is in connection with the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition relative to surpluses which were surrendered to the Revenue Fund from my department. He merely drew the attention of the House to page 8 of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral and as a misleader did not draw the attention of the House to page 9 where the explanations are given clearly.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The Bisi Township, for your information, was planned before this Government came into power. It was surveyed before this Government came into power. Now you cannot blame this Government if they are not in a position to find out where the pegs were in order to make a proper survey.
MR. GUZANA: It is not a question of finding pegs. It was not properly surveyed. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , it was properly surveyed by the Republican authorities. And you have been sitting MR. GUZANA : six years and providing money for it and you have not discovered that?
MR . GUZANA : May I have a point of explanation, Mr. Chairman? I did refer to page 9 in my remarks when I said the explanation was more of an excuse than a reason.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I just want to assure you you are trying to find fault where there is none . Now, reverting to this question of the XG car which caused such a sensation because of the imputations made by the hon. member across the floor , you know very well that every day there are accidents which result in deaths on the road. Do you ever question the negligence of those people ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This is a matter which should have been discussed by the select committee on public accounts . Why the hon. member came to this House in spite of all these explanations and makes political capital out of them one does not understand. Is it because he did not believe these explanations? Why does he have to come and attack the Minister for things which are obvious , which could not be carried out because it was just obvious that they could not be carried out ? MR. GUZANA:
MR. GUZANA : Nobody died in this instance . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Whoever anticipated that XG 1 would ever have an accident?
It is because it is typical 122.
You have been cheating the have no policy. country saying you have a multi- racial policy but you have not told the country the people with whom you are going to multi-racialize .
The driver of this car is one of the best that the Department of Roads has and for five years this young man has never had an accident. Now the hon. member does not go to the Department of Roads and Works to find out the circumstances under which this accident took place . He delights in coming to this House in order to make sensation about a minor thing of that nature where there was no fatal injury. Who died in that car?
MR. GUZANA : This car has nothing to do with multi-racialism . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But you are misleading the people and you cannot form a proper government. (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA: Over R5,000 worth of damage was done , and that is public money.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : And do you actually come and criticize the Government on one accident?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now I want to come to the question of the factory about which you have so much to say – that it has been handed over to a private factory and that the The hon. member factory became insolvent. across the floor is so eager to see White entrepreneurs coming into the Transkei opening up businesses. This factory belongs to the Transkei Government - it does not belong to a
MR. GUZANA : I am giving that as an example of how this Government misuses public funds . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The car was driven by my driver from Umtata to fetch me from my home. You make all sensations about it because you are competent to make these sensations.
private company, but that company which is known as Vleis Sentraal is running the factory on certain conditions. In other words , the profits of this factory are divided between that company and the Transkei Government. Now, I want to make it clear that you will never have private enterprise coming into the Transkei unrestricted , it does not matter how eager you are.
MR. GUZANA: Seventy cars have been destroyed by this Government in the 1967/1968 financial year . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Then why do you have to point out one car ?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Its profits are not reflected here.
MR. GUZANA: I am giving that as an example of the irresponsibility of this Government in handling property belonging to the Government.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It does not matter, but I want to make it clear that your wish will never materialize . You see , the policy which we follow and which you criticize so much is the policy of the Republican Government and White South Africa has accepted the policy of separate development. It is the only policy which can bring about peaceful relations between the races .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It shows how you can try and destroy in your political aspirations . Suppose you were in the Government, could you guarantee there would be no accidents on the road? OPPOSITION MEMBER :
Yes.
(Laughter) MR. GUZANA: No, it is only a springboard.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Who are you and where would you get a responsible government among you people ? The Government has done everything in its power to see that the cars are maintained properly.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : One of the hon. members said Matanzima has a shambok to drive the White people from the Transkei . I want to accuse him rightly of insincerity. He is very insincere . If at all he is sincere he must tell this House • ...
MR. GUZANA : Why did you have to be fetched from Qamata? This is your residence . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : your business . Qamata.
MR. GUZANA : Tell us about the factory - that is what we want to know.
That is not
( Laughter) I have got a home in THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He must tell this House a single European who wants to live with him equally in the Transkei . We have called upon him to tell the country. (Interjections ) Of course, we can understand his position , that since he was refused a permit to go overseas he has tried by all means to be a stooge and a good boy to the Republican Government, purporting that if he were to form a government he would be better than this side of the House , but the policy which he follows is diametrically opposed to that of the the Republic.
MR. GUZANA: Well , you must use your own Government private vehicle to get there. vehicles are not for private use. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is a Government car and I had to come to my office . MR . GUZANA :
We have to criticize you.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: You are not criticizing - you are just making a sensation, that's all. That is all you can do because you
MR. GUZANA: Let us get back to the policy
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speech.
1 be reduced by R800 in respect of Subhead E, 5.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now, coming back to the remarks of the hon. member for Butterworth, near Ndabakazi , and the hon. member from Ncambedlana , I am sure the country has been astonished at hearing their utterances . Two members have been elected by their constituencies to come and represent their interests in this Assembly and when they come here they make a bold statement that fencing should not be undertaken. The hon. member for Butterworth, who lives in a rehabilitated area, says he does not want rehabilitation and fencing is a waste of money. (Interjections)
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Isecond , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am surprised that the hon. member should come forward with this amendment on an amount which has been voted every year. He should know very well that publications of importance and of interest to the Transkei citizens should now and again be made by the Government. Now this is a small sum of R1,000 (otherwise £500, if they do not understand rands) and it is my department which deals with matters of information. We must have a sum of money set aside for exigencies of that nature . Why do you have to query that?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now how can these people who call themselves leaders make such statements ? The hon. member for NcambeIdlana who lives in Umtata does not live in the reserves. He is in a fenced area , his one beast is in the camps but he does not mind if all the farmers inthe Transkei lose their stock because of following antiquated methods of agriculture . Now it shows the collective mentality of the members across the floor and we assume that they are voicing the opinions of their kinsmen. We have always accused you of causing trouble in the reserves . You go to the people and say the Government side stands for fencing and that you are opposed to fencing . Now, will you go and tell the people all these things, that you don't stand for their interests when you come to this House? At the same time you accuse the Government of failing to see to the economic interests of the people . How can we provide when we have such thickheads standing in front of us? (Laughter) The accusation you make against the agricultural officer is very unfair because those people are not here to defend themselves. You say it outside the House and see what happens to you. You will not say it outside this House. What do you know about farming, after all? a man who is trotting up and down the streets of Umtata . (Laughter) You will see from my Vote that the Government is doing everything possible to see that agriculture in the Transkei is being stepped up. I do not think it is necessary for me to reply to the others , because they had practically nothing to say . With those few words , Mr. Chairman, I move that Vote 1 be passed .
MR. GUZANA:
May I put a question?
Put your THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : question in writing. Sit down. (Laughter) MR. GUZANA : The hon. the Minister of Finance says that this amount is in respect of publications , but I see under (d ) we have " Publications R2,000 " . How does he relate the two? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Publications in relation to information services . I think that is clear. It has nothing to do with normal publications which are made by the Government. MR. GUZANA :
What are the exigencies ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We are working hand in hand with the Information Department of the Republic . As you know, certain officers are stationed in Umtata. Now when we have to give any information to the public which is of interest it must be done under this Vote , apart from the normal publications which are departmental, which relate to the sub-department of the Public Service Commission and also the Assembly and Finance . Ithink this should be clear, unless you want to confuse the issue as you always do. This is the normal amount which has been voted every year , Mr. Chairman. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think the explanation of the hon. the Chief Minister has confused the situation considerably. Now what I would like to know is how this information service works . Any information which the Government wishes to make public will be contained in the publications for which provision has been made . Does the R1,000 provide money to pay, for instance , a person specifically sent to an area to do a particular piece of work , or to inform people about a particular project? Is the money paid to informers who advise the department about any irregularities or developing situations in the Transkei ? That is what we want to know. We want a specific explanation as to the administration of the fund, as distinct from publications for which provision has already been made . Can the hon. Minister , for instance , give us one or two examples where this money has been applied under the provision " Information Services" ? You see, an insertion for instance in the Bantu Journal or whatever magazine
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , we have three amendments before the House . I shall ask Mr. Jafta to move his amendment. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I put in this amendment in respect of Information Services . Seeing that we have information officers employed by the Republican Government, I would like to know why we need information officers in the Transkei . I take it that the work of the information officers of the Republic is identical and is the same type as the work done in the Transkei . Inote also under the Department of Justice that this same requirement is indicated and that is why we would like to have an explanation. It is for that reason that I put in this amendment, that Vote
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Government and my department is an overseer over the financial responsibilities of these authorities . The department therefore felt that such authorities should not bear the loss and that the department should make good the loss which has been suffered to the authority and then act against the culprit. In other words , the Government decides to cover the loss which was made through the misappropriattion of the fund and then it acts against the person who is responsible. Now, should this Government decide that the amendment should go through, it means that the tribal authorities will bear the losses and my question to the hon. member across the floor is : What Government will watch its sub-departments sinking ? We are here to see to the activation of these subdepartments . We know that some of you are opposed to the system of regional and tribal authorities , in so much as they are opposed to chieftainship , but I am sure the heads of the tribal authorities across the floor will appreciate the action of the Government. It is my Government which has got the active machinery in recovering any losses which have been made by misappropriation of funds by the incumbents of those posts in the tribal authorities .
is published by the Republican Government will be covered under the provision " Publications " . May we be assisted in this regard ? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I am unable to find what the hon. member really wants . He is merely pretending to be blind and to bring forward certain imputations in so far as this item is concerned. I have made it explicitly clear that when my department wants to inform the public about anything in my department....
MR. GUZANA: E.g. ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : ..we have got to publish certain pamphlets for that. MR. GUZANA : Yes , that is under " Publications " . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , information services is to inform the people about what is happening. With regard to publications , we refer to books and all that which we want for the library. We have a library and we need certain publications . Now that is clear as far as I am concerned . If you don't understand I cannot help.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in respect of this amendment liars do figure , but figures don't lie . Add one to one, it is never eleven but two. It is only if and so far as you approach or employ the services of a witch-doctor that will make incisions , and then that one plus one is not two but eleven. (Laughter) I see nothing but a fraudulent statement that has been made in so far as this Vote is concerned. It is a fraud .
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : What are the pamphlets ? Anything THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : which my department wants to put out by way of information.
MR. GUZANA : I think we can say that the item is not justified .
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: mean by "fraudulent" ?
THE CHAIRMAN: We shall pass on to the next amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you in a position to prove that this is a fraud?
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment that Vote 1 be reduced by leaving out Sub-head E , item 12.
MR . MGUDLWA : I am coming there . Encouraging thieves to steal in fact, the exercise Just why? of self-help , as it were . Why? Because you cannot make provision for thieves to go on stealing , whereas they must be convicted, in fact. There is no more justification in this . -
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : Chairman.
What do you
I second, Mr.
MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, under this head I would like to know why the money is known to be appropriated by Government officials and it is known specifically which Government servant has taken the money, and yet he is not required to pay it back . It is a known fact that whoever commits a crime must suffer for that crime and make good the loss. It is on that account I have introduced this amendment to the effect that the amount under this head should be deleted.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is out of order. There is no provision for thieves here . The provision is to reimburse lower authorities . MR. MGUDLWA: So that these clerks of lower authorities must steal in the hope that there will be this provision. But why? Are we interested in thieves? Must we encourage them in their thieving propensities ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the members will note that during the financial year 1968/1969 we did not have this provision, but during 1969/1970 we decided to provide for misappropriation of funds in tribal and lower authorities where the clerks of those authorities misappropriated funds by, for example , theft. Now I want to make it clear that these authorities are sub- departments of this
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , I do not think that is the aim . I think you are out of order. They will not be safe. MR. MGUDLWA: But what about recently He is safe with us today. He is in Idutywa ? with me today. He is a sitting member with me. 125.
He is safe because you know he got the option of a fine .
MR. MGUDLWA: No, the Republican Government.
THE CHAIRMAN: I don't think you can discuss this now. You are out of order.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : employed in the Roads Department.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I think members will understand me better if I make it clear that this reimbursement is made when the clerks are the servants of this Government. When the clerk is not a servant of this Government then we don't have to make this reimbursement. MR . K.M. GUZANA : recovered?
MR. MGUDLWA :
No , I was seconded.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , you wer employed by the Transkei Government. You are so ignorant about administration that today I am going to teach you . You are earning a salary today and if you commit a theft while employed in the Department of Roads and it was found your pension contributions could not cover the amount, the deductions would be made from the salary you are getting now.
How is that money
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The money is recovered from the pension fund contributions...
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , the hon. Minister is quite right and we do not want these lower authorities . They are merely reducing the duties and responsibilities of chiefs and it is quite plain, by reason of these financial losses incurred, that they have failed in their duties . (Interjections) The heads ofthese tribal authorities do not want this thing.
MR. GUZANA: No , I mean from a person not employed by the Government. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is a question for the authority to decide. Now, you must not go on about private members and clerks who have been employed by the tribal authority and have nothing to do with the Government. These clerks referred to are only those who are employed by the Government and we are responsible for them and we know they have their pension contributions which will have to be forfeited. In any event, the authority concerned should not suffer because of the clerk we put at their disposal. I mean, that is reasonable. Any man who has brains at all , unless he is a fool , he should understand.
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR . GUZANA : members , speaking to this amendment, R2,500 is a considerable amount of money , having regard to the amount of money at the disposal of this Government. We concede that ifthe lower authorities are regarded as sub-departments or admistrative bodies of the Government they have to perform a function and they have to have the funds. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: What did Mr. Mnyani say?
MR. GUZANA : Don't go on like that. Is this in respect of past misappropriations or expected misappropriations ?
MR. GUZANA : I am not contradicting the hon. Mr. Mnyani , I am speaking to my point. My worry is that the R2,500 for which provision has been made may not be the only amount involved in these misappropriations. What is worrying me is the fact that the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General seems to suggest the lack of a provision for the auditing of the accounts of these lower authorities. Can we say with definiteness that there have been no misappropriations since 1964 up to 1967/1968 if we have not had the books of these inferior bodies audited? You see, we are accepting a principle
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , we have cases of that nature . It is past misappropriations. We have a case , for instance , in Umzimkulu and there are other cases . Why you did not have this provision last year is because these are new cases since then , but they are past cases . MR. MGUDLWA : What of a man who is employed today and then tomorrow he misappropriates ? Are there any pension contributions accruing to him?
here that we should constantly reimburse lower authorities if their functions are in any way handicapped by misappropriations. When these books are audited as from 1964 to 1968 and we find there has been a misappropriation , say, of R1,000 or R2,000 , will the Government on this principle reimburse the lower authorities that that considerable extent? You see, this is a new principle which we are introducing into the fiscal system and we want to be satisfied that the resultant consequences are not going to create an embarrassment financially to the Government, or make us waver in applying this principle when we are faced with a colossal amount of misappropriation. I think that is the reason why there has been this amendment, so that we can speak to this matter and get the assurance of the Government that it is sure there is nothing owing in excess of the amount
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now, the Magistrates' Court Act No. 44 provides for that. We have a remedy for such things. You get a court order to have reductions made in a man's salary or from his estate . MR . GUZANA : ment.
You were
That is, if he is in employ-
MR. MGUDLWA: Say a man has been convicted and once he is convicted he is charged with misconduct. Will there be any order against such a man, because he is out of his job? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But the hon. member was employed by the Transkei Government....
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There is another point I would like clarified. Seeing that the people will reside there just as in a town, what arrangements have been made to provide then with employment? Are there opportunities for employment within easy reach of these towns so that they can go to and from their employment ? There will also be rates for which the people will be liable and I would like a very clear explanation to be given as regards these people and the amenities I have mentioned, especially in connection with Bisi . It may be possible that these measures I have mentioned will be available in Matatiele for the Ramahlokoana township because I take it that the people who will lead an urban life should have a regular source of income so that they will be able to meet their commitments accordingly. It is on that account that I have put in this amendment, so that an explanation can be given in connection with these heads .
of R2,500 by way of misappropriations since this Government took over in 1964 , up to and including the 1967/1968 financial year , and that this principle is going to be a rigid one and the Government is not going to be frightened out of it when they find there are much larger sums which have been misappropriated. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, it will interest the hon. members of this House to know that the books of account in the lower authorities are audited departmentally monthly. It has been the system since the inauguration of the Bantu authorities system in the late 1950s for the regional authority books and the district authority books to be closed at the end of every month and the returns sent to the head office in Umtata , and the certificate of the exchequer is always submitted that the books are in order. Now that is the case also with tribal authorities - they are being audited by the magistrate in all the districts . Now, if there were any large sums of misappropriations my department would have known about them and the fact that we have merely provided for R2,500 to meet these misappropriations shows that we do not have any large sums of money which have been misappropriated. I am making that guarantee. The remark in the Auditor- General's report that there is no law which provides for the auditing of the books of the lower authorities refers to Act No. 4 of 1965 which has not got the provision and I wish to assure the House that an amendment will be made in order to cover this omission.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in reply to the submissions of the hon. member across the floor from Qumbu , I should have been happier if he had put a question to me in this connection rather than move an amendment for a reduction of a necessary service. I hope that if he is a reasonable man, after I have given the explanation he will withdraw this amendment. In the first place I want to make it clear that the Bisi township is not a creation of this Government . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : it a location?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , township. The township is not a creation of this Government. It was established during the time when we were under the direct control of the Republican Government. Now , what my Government is doing is to try and improve an existing awkward situation and I wonder if any reasonable man ( I take it that my hon. friend has my respect because I always regard him as a reasonable man) should say that necessary services should be curtailed? Now I will try and give him this in detail. Please write it down. In Bisi we have estimated to spend R4,000 on roads - that is, on the streets of that township - and to establish public offices , R25,000 ; the salary ofthe manager of the township , R600. That is now our attempt to improve the situation which we found existing at Bisi. My hon. friend says that is not a township but a location, but the people of Bisi have been given every encouragement to put up substantial buildings which will come up to the standards of a real town. (Interjections) In reply to your interjection the town of Umzimkulu will soon be zoned Black . You don't know that because you have no interest in your people . Now, coming to the township of Ramahlokoana , the town of Matatiele is in a White area and my Government decided to have offices established for the Matatiele Black community just outside Matatiele , and this is not a new thing. We brought this before this Chamber some time back, that the Government had these plans . It is a necessary service for the people of Matatiele . Now the provision is as follows : A water scheme for the township - R30,000 ; sewerage scheme - R33,800; township manager - R600 . That makes a total of R94,000 for the two .
MR. GUZANA: The Controller and AuditorGeneral now has been relying on the departmental audit all the time ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That's right. MR. GUZANA: 'But you concede the need for him to audit those books ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We concede the need for him to satisfy himself that the books of the lower authorities are properly kept and audited and I assure the House that an amendment to that effect will be made , but I wish to allay your fears that there are no more sums of money above these. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, I have this amendment : That Vote 1 be reduced by R50,000 in respect of sub- head G. I move accordingly. MR. GUZANA :
Township ? But isn't
I second, Mr. Chairman.
MR. JAFTA: In moving this amendment , Mr. Chairman, I have this in view: Reference has been made to Ramahlokoana township in the Matatiele district and also to Bisi in the district of Umzimkulu . I would like a very thorough explanation to be given in connection with these towns , the aim and object of having these towns built, the method of laying them out, the steps taken to provide for the residents in these areas . For people who are going to live an urban type of life it is necessary that there should be streets and a proper water supply and sanitary arrangements catered for, as well as other amenities .
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MR. H.H. ZIBI: Any offices ?
Transkei Government, my Government, does not want to encourage the location system. Ifpeople want to live a rural life they must go out to the country and ask for sites under headmen if they are not in a position to meet the requirements of a town. We are unhappy about this location which is across here . We would like to see that thing wiped off and proper streets and houses laid out for a town. We are not happy about it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No offices as yet in so far as my department is concerned, but when you come to the Department of Roads and Works you find that provision is made for the erection of high school buildings , so I hope my hon. friend across the floor will be satisfied with the explanation and withdraw the amendment, unless he thinks the services are not necessary.
The debate was adjourned .
MR. GUZANA : I don't think there is anybody who quarrels with legitimate expenditure , but if you have ever roasted "boerewors" over a burning fire you must have a long , sharp wire every now and again to pick it up and see if it is all right, otherwise it is going to burn to a hard inedible rock, and that is what we are doing now. The hon. Minister has not replied to some of the points raised by the hon. Mr. Jafta . He wants to know what the work opportunities are ; what are the determining location factors. You see , a town must have certain, shall I say , location factors which will enhance the development of a town. For instance , next to the railway line it is easy to establish factories . There is Such the availability then of raw material. employment as is available should give these people a wage adequate for them to forego their agricultural allotment in the rural area, for instance . I think that is really what we would like the hon. Minister to tell us .
The
Assembly
adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Vote 1, Department of the Chief Minister and Finance, was resumed. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have a few questions to put to the hon. the Minister of Finance relating to item G which we were discussing. Firstly, is this a town or is it a location, a township? If it is a town why is it you stated it will be under a manager and not under a mayor? Will the people have title deeds to their properties and , further, will the erven available for sale be sold by public auction so that who ever has the money may buy more than one or two plots?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I want to elucidate further on what the hon. member has just sought to find outfrom me. He wants to know whether these townships have any possibilities of giving employment to our people. I wish to reply first in connection with Ramahlokoana and say that the establishment of the town of Ramahlokoana is similar to the establishing of Cofimvaba some time back inthe 19th century. That office was removed from St. Mark's and stationed at Cofimvaba. The question of earnings and all that was never considered. The most important thing was to have administrative offices for the community. Now, that is the first thing which starts in a town and I submit that all the towns in the Transkei first sprang up as administrative centres. People are not persuaded to go and settle in that area. They will go there and buy their
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Before the hon. Minister replies to that.... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , I am not going to reply to foolish questions . MR. GUZANA: I have one or two comments to make in regard to the details given to the House by the hon. the Minister of Finance of the amounts allocated in regard to the planning and development of zoned areas in townships . It would appear that none of this amount will be used in respect of zoned urban areas because , adding up the amounts itemized for Bisi and Ramahlokoana, we get an amount of, I think, R94,000 which absorbs that whole estimate. Supposing there was a surplus for zoned urban areas, what work is contemplated by this Government in respect of these zoned areas ? Furthermore , there is an amount of R32,400 in respect of sewerage at Ramahlokoana. In my experience , towns usually start with the bucket system and as the population increases and revenue increases so does the town then contemplate a water-borne system. It would appear to me that if an amount of R32,400 is invested in this direction there will be no revenue either to redeem this capital outlay or even to maintain the system, which will be far in excess of the demand in the initial stages of development. The Government, for instance , could consider the construction of septic tanks as a first step in the direction of water-borne sewerage, or is
own plots and put up decent buildings. Those are not going to be locations such as you find for example in Пlingi or Sada in the Ciskei . The people who will put up buildings are those who would like to go and live in a town and buy land. Naturally those people will find a source of living. For example , we shall have churches established in that area; we shall have all the clergymen settled there. We shall have a post office; we shall have our clerks employed there . That is how all these towns in the Transkei sprang up and in any event experts were engaged on this work and they found that the town should be located there . Now, I am not going to give any motivation with regard to Bisi because it is not the establishment of this Government, but in any event I want to assure you that this Government will do everything to assist that township to come up to the standard of a town. By the way , I want to make it clear that the
the Government guaranteed a specific or minimum number of initial residents who will take up occupation and justify this high capital expenditure on sewerage right at the onset? May we have the reactions of the hon. Minister , please? 128.
his term of office. We all know that towards the end of his career his failing health made it increasingly difficult for him to carry out his duties. However, Mr. Chairman, despite that he faithfully fulfilled his task to the best of his ability and left to me a department to be proud of. I am indeed thankful that it was my privilege to succeed such a fine gentleman who enjoyed not only the affection and loyalty of his friends and colleagues , but also the admiration of his opponents.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, by way of interjection I intimated that I would not reply to foolish questions - questions which sought a reiteration of what I have already explained to this House , but I just want to answer to these two questions which have been put to me by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. It is obvious that since we have not estimated for any. expenditure on the zoned areas in the Transkeian towns , the Government is not in a position to make such expenditure at this stage . Now I cannot answer suppositions when you say: Suppose there were accounts which required the Transkei Government to meet them , what would be the reaction of the Government? I cannot answer
My predecessor, like the honourable Chief G.M. Matanzima before him pursued a very sound policy. He was faithful to that policy and he would never deviate from that which he regarded as right and in the best interests ofthe Transkei and its people .
that, but, as the estimates show, the expenditure is only required for Bisi and Ramahlokoana. Now, with regard to the sewerage system in this township of Ramahlokoana , I want to inform the hon. members that that town is being planned on modern lines and to say that all towns start with a bucket system is misleading. There are towns in the Orange Free State which started in the same way as we are going to start that township and I want to inform him that there is going to be a big high school in that township and conveniences for these children have got to be provided permanently. The same applies to the staff, the teachers who are going to have residences in that township. We are going to lay the water system in order that when the people occupy the place we shall be in a position to supply these to them. In any event, we have got a very intelligent Government with intelligent staff and we need not be reminded by novices . (Laughter) We take a long time doing all the intial plans , experts are brought in with their suggestions and this goes through many people who have the know-how. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
As regards policy, Mr. Chairman, I wish to assure the Assembly that it is my intention to follow in the footsteps of my predecessors. The primary function of my department is the administration of justice. We are inthe fortunate position that our standard of judicature is high and that the people have the fullest confidence in our courts . That is something to be thankful for . On the other hand, Mr. Chairman, it also requires of us to protect that proud heritage and to ensure that we maintain the present high standard. That is not any easy task. In this age of phenomenal development in all spheres almost every new situation requires new laws . Changing circumstances also bring about changes in legal thought and approach. Adjustments have to be made and sometimes legal principles of long standing become antiquated and are therefore substituted by new principles . In the circumstances it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain a high standard . The judicature should therefore be entrusted to capable men who have been properly trained and whose thorough knowledge and absolute integrity will ensure that the people do not lose their confidence in our courts . It is for that reason , Mr. Chairman , that my predecessors repeatedly stressed the importance of training. It would serve no good purpose to devise and develop a beautiful court system if there were no trained staff to carry out the work. A great task therefore lies ahead. The Transkei is still served by Republican courts and eventually they will have to be replaced by Transkeian courts . But Mr. Chairman, the establishment and development of such courts will to a large extent depend on the progress which is made with training.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, in regard to Vote 1.H ... THE CHAIRMAN: I am sorry , hon. member, we are dealing with these three amendments before us . It was moved by the hon. Mr. N. Jafta that Vote 1 be reduced by R800 in respect of sub-head E, item 5, and I shall now put it to the vote. Amendments (a) , (b) and (c ) were lost. The sum of R801,000 under Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , was passed to stand part of the schedule. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I shall call upon the Deputy Chairman to occupy the Chair .
During this session a small start will be made with the establishment of Transkeian courts when a bill is introduced to provide for the establishment of regional authority courts . Ata later stage the establishment of other inferior courts and of a High Court will receive attention. At this stage, however, our principal task is the training of our officers.
The Deputy Chairman took the Chair. POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable Members of the Assembly. This is the first occasion on which I have to deliver a policy speech in my capacity as Minister of Justice. At the outset I wish to pay tribute to my predecessor , the honourable Mr. B.B. Mdledle for what he accomplished during
As regards training, Mr. Chairman, I think I should mention a few things to show what has already been done. In 1964 there were only three legally qualified 129.
Transkeian officers in my department . A survey revealed that for several reasons there was very little enthusiasm for law studies . It was obvious that something had to be done and in collaboration with the Public Service Commission a bursary scheme was introduced for part-time students . This scheme stimulated the interest in law studies and there was an immediate increase in the number of law students . Of course , the examination results were not always encourag-
the officers in my department are Transkeian officers . It should be borne in mind , Mr. Chairman, that during the past five years there has been a tremendous increase in the volume of work at the district offices of the department. Furthermore, Mr. Chairman, my department renders agency services for many Transkeian and Republican departments. The diversity of duties to be performed by every magistrate and his staff requires a wide knowledge and experience. If these factors are taken into consideration, our progress during the past five years has been remarkable , if not astonishing.
ing, but that had to be expected . The department was aware of the disadvantages of parttime study and realised that further assistance was necessary. In 1966 a bursary scheme was introduced which made provision for full -time study at the University College of Fort Hare. The first full-time students under this scheme enrolled in 1967 and one of them completed his studies at the end of 1968. At present there are 10 bursary students at Fort Hare who are studying under this scheme. It is anticipated that some of them will complete their courses at the end of this year .
As regards the future , Mr. Chairman, I realise that there is still much to do. There is, for instance , the establishment of a Transkeian High Court which has to receive attention in collaboration with the Republican Government. It will not be an easy task and again we shall have to rely on the Republican Government for staff and for the training of Transkeian officers. However , we must give the matter a serious thought. The sooner we start the sooner something can be accomplished. We must establish and develop our own courts in the course of time and we must create facilities for the training of Transkeian officers for the posts attached to the Registrar's office and AttorneyGeneral's office
Mr. Chairman, I am sure that honourable members will agree that everything possible is being done to assist Transkeian officers to obtain legal qualifications . But, Mr. Chairman, apart from providing for intensive academical training, my department has also introduced a system of preparatory in- service training . Under this system newly recruited officers are employed additional to the establishment and receive basic training at various magistrates ' offices in all branches of office work. The advantages are obvious and I am convinced that the system will promote the efficiency of the department.
Once a High Court has been established , it will also become necessary to consider the The new establishment of a Master's Office . building for the Department of Justice which is nearing completion will provide adequate accommodation if the aforementioned new offices are established .
Provision is also made for the training of public prosecutors . Several officers have already received training and three members of the Transkeian Police are now attending a prosecutor's course in Pretoria . Various other courses are also arranged from time to time to equip the officers in my department for their task .
Apart from the training of officers for these offices , we must also think of our practising lawyers . The establishment of sound Transkeian bar and side -bar is of great importance for the development of our courts . We must therefore create opportunities for Transkeian citizens who are practising law or who desire to practise in the Transkei.
Mr. Chairman, I believe in promotion on The question is sometimes raised in merit. certain quarters as to why certain posts are still occupied by seconded officers and why certain Transkeian officers have not yet been promoted to more senior posts. Mr. Chairman, we must have a realistic approach to these matters . It would be unwise to force the replacement of seconded officers at all costs merely to impress the electorate . Surely such a policy would be detrimental to the interests of the Transkei and its people. There must be no undue haste in this matter. On the other hand Mr. Chairman, our Transkeian officers must realise that they must prepare themselves to assume greater responsibility as soon as possible because the seconded officers will not be available for ever. My predecessor took a great step forward when he appointed Transkeian officers as magistrates in charge of district offices . Similar appointments will have to follow, as and when trained officers become available . In the meantime steady progress is being made with the replacement of seconded officers in the lower ranks. At present 78% of
As regards the maintenance of law and order and internal security, I wish to express my thanks and appreciation for the excellent services rendered by the South African Police . We are all proud of the fact that so many of the members of that force are Transkeian citizens . Since the establishment of the Transkeian Government we have enjoyed peace and quiet in the territory. Our citizens are law-abiding people and have co-operated wonderfully with the South African Police in their efforts to combat crime and subversion of authority. We have been able to reduce the number of homeguards appreciably and it is my policy to reduce that number still further if possible . In view of what has been accomplished and what is planned for the future , I am sure that honourable members will not hold it against me if there is a slight increase in the expenditure under my department's revenue vote. Apart from the inevitable increase in salaries which our officers deserve and the additional expenditure in regard to postage , an additional
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amount is required for the purchase of publications for head office and district office libraries . The head office library will also serve as a High Court library and it must therefore be properly equipped. Works of reference and other publications must also be supplied to district offices and law books are becoming more and more expensive. In the past it has been difficult to satisfy the demand with the funds available . In any event it is not sufficient merely to maintain the libraries . They should also be improved and expanded . The administration of justice is not only an essential service but also a very important service . We must ensure that nothing will hamper our judicial officers in the performance of their duties. Mr. Chairman, I move that Vote No. 2 be approved by this committee. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR . R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I knew the hon. the Minister of Justice as Minister of the Interior. As Minister of the Interior I used to find him useful. We on this side of the House trust that we shall find him equally useful in his new department, especially since he is moving into the position of a man whom we highly respect in the person of Mr. B.B. Mdledle , a man we knew as a teacher, a man we knew in the Education Department as Minister, and we wish him well wherever he may be. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Hear, hear. MR. MADIKIZELA : hope to see him from time to time in that corner. Most of the remarks made by the hon. the Minister of Justice will pass under favourable comment. We are particularly happy to learn that the Education Department is doing all it can to encourage the young children to study further in preparation to take over the promised posts . We also agree with him that the standard of the judicature in the Transkei has always been a very high one and that we have full confidence in our courts , and we trust that will be continued. The hon. Minister said something about a bill that is coming before this House . We will refrain from saying anything in that connection at this stage , but when the time comes we will do so. We are also happy to learn that efforts are being made to train our men as prosecutors and would be pleased if more and more of them will be trained and made available to the service . We are also happy that the hon. the Minister of Justice is stressing that merit should be the basis of promotion. If a
of African origin. We would plead with the hon. Minister to consider the position of these men very closely, especially in respect of their pay. The magistrate in his area is chief accountant and he is responsible for large sums of money. He must be kept far removed from any thought of misappropriation of those funds and he can only do so by merely being paid as a magistrate a magistrate without qualification . We also feel that these African magistrates are inhibited in their exercise of justice when they cannot sit in judgement over a man because he is White , even if he has committed a crime within that area. It should be a sufficient deterrent to the White man not to commit any crime within the jurisdiction of a magistrate who is Black if he wants to escape the judgement of a Black man. We consider it a good idea that the hon. Minister is thinking in the far, or perhaps in the near , future of establishing a Transkei high court. That is certainly a step forward . All the more reason why he should undertake to train people to take up those positions . The hon. the Minister of Justice said something about the police and the excellent service they are giving to the Transkei. I wish to recommend for the attention of the hon. Minister what I am going to say. The police have imported an unpleasant practice from the cities - I mean the raid system . Trouble erupts in a certain administrative area, the police are warned and they go out to that administrative area. Well , the people in that particular administrative area were expecting the police and so they disperse . The police say they have gone out and if they want to get home they must collect anybody along the road. They now invade locations which have had no trouble whatsoever, they get there during the night, are rude in their knockings and they start arresting people for everything , particularly lethal weapons - and even an ordinary knobbed stick is classified as that. The citizens of the Transkei are not over happy about that, particularly with the increase in the incidence of stock theft. Everybody in the reserves is in a way a policeman. When a report of stock theft is made and an alarm is raised, the local people arm themselves as best they can because invariably the stock thieves are very well armed. Again, the headman takes it upon himself to warn the charge office. The police come out to investigate , they come across these men armed and they proceed to arrest them . What should the poor chaps do ? Instead of following the spoor of the stolen stock they arrest these people, have them prosecuted and convicted and it will be three months before these men are out to go and report the loss of their stock. MR . R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a comment relative to the very important policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice , a department which is very important to the welfare of a people , for where there is no law the weak are trampled down. We are very happy to note that in the five years his department has worked hard to make the department respected by the Transkei people . Many tribes or peoples experience internal troubles and fighting when they are given self-government. We bear witness to the fact that in the Transkei we have not had such
man is qualified he must not be held back because the senior man is White - senior merely because of his colour.
Are you THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : suspicious of the White people in your multiracial politics ? MR. MADIKIZELA : You want to keep them on top all the time. We want to serve alongside The hon. the Minister of Justice also them . said something about our existing magistrates
131 .
be no need for a defence . I have never known a profession so scandalized, but so much commended when a person is in a tight corner. In fact, some of our clients will go surrepetitiously at night and whisper a confession to their attorney and say: What am I to do? (Laughter) No offence is taken at the remarks of the hon. member for Cala. He will find his account in the post tomorrow for legal services rendered . (Laughter) Sir, I am speaking to this policy speech and in particular would like to refer to the statement to the effect that regional courts are going to be established. What is worrying me there is the word " authority" - regional authority courts. I think the terminology is quite confusing and I cannot grasp exactly what the idea is. Does this imply that the regional authority is going to be given jurisdiction , or is it a court that will be established to serve a region, and not the regional authority? - because if you contemplate giving regional authorities criminal and civil jurisdiction you are going to complicate the situation. The tribal authority courts at the present moment are making a hash of things . I am afraid to confess it, but it is quite clear from their judgement that they do not know what Native law is. I am warning the hon. Minister on this point because we would like him to put us right as to what is intended.
experiences under his department. While I make that statement I would like it, however, to be noted by his department that in the Transkei we still have areas where people move about in broad daylight armed with dangerous weapons . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Where ? GOVERNMENT MEMBER: Mqanduli . (Laughter) MR. MSENGANA: We ought to see to it that we have a peaceful and law-abiding country where everyone may feel safe . We would like the hon. the Minister of Justice to take particular note of this because attorneys who make their living in this type of practice usually make a noise when reference is made to this sort of We are also happy behaviour . (Laughter) to note that while stock-theft is still practised, it is being reduced to a large extent. We are not scared of people who object to our speaking about this , because we know they live by stocktheft themselves . (Laughter) We note certain progressive measures are being taken by this department , which is evidence that the Transkei Government is really making headway. To give an illustration I will refer to the village of Cala where we have only one European official in the whole Department of Justice - the magistrate O and the rest are all Bantu . Mr. Chairman, it pleases us very much to note that this department is offering educational and training opportunities for those of our youth who are keen to study as prosecutors. We note that the department is taking more people , especially in the police force. We wish they would also take other people and train them in prosecution so that they will be able to appear against attorneys . We are keen that in the very near future we should see a number of our Bantu people in charge of police stations . These are the landmarks that show the progress and achievements of the Transkei Government - things which were not known in the past. In his policy speech the hon. Minister referred to a library which will be supplied with a number of books relating to law. In support of his policy speech we would like to add that legal books should be made available even to the lower courts . Where we already have tribal court houses these books will be safe from destruction by rats . The availability of these books will be of use so that whoever wants to appeal will be able to do so according to law. Indeed, Mr. Minister , we need not belabour the policy speech you have given us and which has been very much approved by us , except perhaps if we want to repeat ourselves in our remarks . I note that my hon. friend is in a hurry to reply to what I have said so I will sit down, but it is a fact that where there is trouble attorneys make their money there . (Laughter) Where people break the law the attorney makes his money. Because of the peace and quiet reigning under your department I am sure the attorneys will find very little work to do. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : the definition.
You will get
I am not going to accept MR. GUZANA : that sort of thing when you tell me you will tell me later. Is it going to be on the same lines as the regional authority? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We will come to the definition later. : MR. GUZANA: We find in the tribal authority courts that out of a hundred cases , 99 cases become the subject of an appeal . This tends to delay the settlement of claims between parties. There is greater expense involved in litigation and we have these people going to labour centres and the actions delayed on appeal because the litigants or witnesses are away at work. If we can have justice meted out to parties in as short a time as possible I would suggest that we follow that method. If you are going to have regional authorities having this jurisdiction you are going to have an appeal from the tribal authority to the regional authority, from the regional authority to the Bantu Affairs commissioner's court, from the Bantu Affairs commissioner's court to the Southern Bantu Appeal Court, and this is really stretching the thing too far. I shall repeat these remarks , putting more salt into the wound. (Laughter) I also want to say that even if we thrive as attorneys on the criminal propensities of the public, there are a few things which worry our consciences too. I want to refer to the investigation of crime in the Transkei . We get quite a lot of people who complain that they have made a report to the police about loss of stock, and they (that is, the complainants ) are called upon to do something about it.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if there were not any sinners in this world, there would not be any attorneys . If there were not any lawbreakers then there would
132.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : upon by the police ?
thieves who are scattered abroad also have spite against the police . This is what surprises me when such "tsotsis" have been assaulted by other "tsotsis " they sually run to the police . Even a thief who practises stealing people's property runs to the police when his only goat has been stolen. Even a murderer runs to the police for help if he is assaulted at his home . I would appeal to the House not to criticize the police adversely when they speak about them . One hon. member says the police do not do their work properly but I know that no- one is perfect. There are police who do their work conscientiously. We cannot overlook the fact that there might be some loafers but that does not mean to say the police should be criticized so severely. Marked progress has been made by this Department of Justice . Whoever dreamed of our having our own magistrates and prosecutors ? I do not know whether my hon. friends want a White man to remain permanently as prosecutor. I would appeal to this House that we take our children to school and give them a good education because we have accepted self-government in the Transkei . Without education our people will not have any progress . We should train our children to take the correct line because if we fail to train them we shall have no nation. I have had experience of working for the Government. I shall not take up much of your time but I appeal to the House to accept this policy statement.
Called
MR. GUZANA : Yes, the complainant is told to do something about it by the police. The complainant calls at the bar and brings something about this something which he has reported. (Interjections) Then the police ask what did actually happen in this matter , after they have enjoyed what has been brought about this matter. A statement is not taken from the complainant. He is told to come back the following day, a sketchy statement is taken and he is told to go home - that investigations will follow. This goes on and on for two, three or four months , and it is at the end of this period impossible to trace stock. Let me give you just an example , without quoting anybody in particular. A reported at several police stations that his stock had been stolen. He asks friends to look out for this stock also, and in this particular instance part of the stock was found and the complainant went to the local police station. The police , instead of going out to collect the stock, referred him to his district police station. By the time he had reported to his local police station the stock had been moved elsewhere. In another case a man reported a horse which had been stolen in the village. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: horse been stolen in the village?
Had the
MR. GUZANA: The horse had been stolen elsewhere but he reported it as being in the village. Instead of the police going out to apprehend the person who had the horse , they dillydallied and gave this man an opportunity to ride away on the horse and the horse disappeared . Now, in the mind of the ordinary man in the street, this is the conclusion to which he comes that there is collusion between the stock-thieves and the police , that if anybody complains to the police he must bring along a bribe to the police before any investigation takes place . It has come to my knowledge that a man has spent R120 trying to get hold of his stock and this amount has been spent in travelling and in buying something for policemen who were supposed to investigate I will again take the opportunity the crime . to speak later for fifteen minutes.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am also worried over the fact that our police force does not seem to carry that dignity which originally attached to a man in uniform . I think this department should make it a point to impress on the members of the police force that they should be an example when they are on duty and when they are off duty. It is most upsetting indeed to see a man in private behaving in a manner which discredits the police force. I am worried over the condition of their uniforms . The trousers are more often than not not ironed , the buttones are not furnished properly. The bootlaces are hanging loose and they do not create an impression of efficiency in the minds of the public. One would not like to see a policeman in an old uniform. A worn-out uniform makes a scarecrow out of an individual . I therefore urge this department to look into this matter , insisting upon cleanliness and deportment and good public behaviour on and off duty; uniforms properly looked after and in good condition. Probably these policemen may well have to be subsidized in the uniform with which they are supplied . I am sure these matters if properly attended to will give dignity to the police force . Let me hasten to pay tribute to those fine and upright men whom we still find in the police force , who have maintained their dignity and applied themselves diligently to their work, who take a very keen interest in serving the people who come to the police station with complaints . Credit is due to them but I am afraid that there are many more who could not care less how they look and how they do their duty in the police force. I am also concerned over the fact that we have not sufficient police in the Transkei . How often have reports of crime been made at police stations , and there
CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in support of the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Justice , I would like to say a few words about Mr. Mdledle , a man with whom I worked. When he was Minister of Education he did excellent work. As Minister of Justice he also rendered good service . This has been indicated by the good report we have received this morning, showing that the present Minister of Justice had a good sound foundation. I wish also to comment on the work of the present Minister of Justice when he was Minister of the Interior. It is hoped that when he gives his policy speech he should meet with no difficulties and that no anger will be aroused by his speech. He delivered his speech as if he were a well brought-up child. I also give credit to his Secretary. Now, let me speak about the duties of the police . All the bad, cruel "tsotsis" who carry on house-breaking hate the police. All 133.
police department and the police come under your department, Sir. Now I want to give you an example of how these men are wholly at the mercy of housebreakers. At one trading station these thugs called at midnight. The trader became aware of their presence , he took his bank bag , removed all the notes and left the silver and threw it out through the window to them , tucking the banknotes under the mattress, but when the thugs looked into the bag they found very little silver and came back and shouted out words to this effect: You have not given us enough and now we have come back for the balance . Now, it was either his life or the money. He took the money and threw it out and these thugs took it away. Wouldn't the circumstances have been changed if this man had had a firearm and had fired into the air?
is only one policeman on duty and he cannot go out immediately to investigate the crime or to attend to the complaint. Is it not possible for this department to launch a recruiting drive , offering inducements to make the service attractive and to draw people into the police force? And we would like those men who stand six feet high and a little over, rather than dwarfs (laughter) because the stature of a policeman goes a long way in combating and even in discourgaing crime. This is an important aspect to which the hon. Minister should give serious attention. Now, Sir, you have talked of magistrates, prosecutors , law students and what have you. That is in the nature ofthings a very good development, and we want to commend your department for giving its mind to this branch of government. After all, if you are going to have Whites and Blacks working together you must train the Blacks to approximate the Whites . Now you are laying the foundations so that when we take over we shall implement our multi-racial policy. (Laughter) Sir, you have suggested that there should be an increase in the number of lawyers in the Transkei . I think at the present moment there are more thieves , more sinners than lawyers to cope with them. It is not as if there are not enough young men who seek to qualify as attorneys - the trouble is financial, in this way : The principal is not obliged to pay a certain minimum salary to his articled clerk and the trouble is that the poor articled clerk finds it very difficult to make ends meet. Is it not possible for this department to consider bursaries to help people qualify as attorneys?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: thungs would fire into his tummy.
And the
MR. GUZANA: Perhaps . Well, let me pass on to another matter. I would like to see the Transkei patrolled more effectively than it is at present. You know in these vans they install what they call "walkie- talkie" apparatus and one would like to see an arrangement whereby almost on the main roads you have these vans constantly in touch one with the other. The fact that the eye of the law is on everybody or on every part of the country throughout the night will be a deterrent on lawbreakers and this will also help in the speedy detection of crime. Let me make this last observation (not that it is the last thing I ought to say) : Has it ever dawned on the hon. the Minister of Justice that most of the faction fights that we have in the various districts of the Transkei are caused by the fact that the police are too far away from the administrative area?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Afrikaans is putting them back. MR. GUZANA: Yes , Afrikaans is a problem but I think the one that is handicapping them is financial and if the department would make positive approaches itself to firms of attorneys with a view to getting them to take on articled clerks , it might assist us to acquire this very well deserved member of the public in the Transkei. After all, you are going to require legal advisers . Your tribal authorities and your regional authorities should have local legal advisers just as municipal councils have legal advisers , and this would save these bodies from making untold blunders which sometimes have to be covered by the Government. It is not that I am offering my services at a fee ( Laughter) I am just stating a fact. Now, Sir, let me say at this moment that we hope this department is going to undertake its work with some earnestness. Probably your predecessors had to lay the foundations in this department. Probably we have to concede that the Department of Justice is about the most conservative in the departments of State in any government, and that it should continue to be conservative , but we would like to see that it is alive to the present situation. Let me ask you this question: You have a number of Africans who have taken over trading stations in rural areas and these men have not been provided with firearms to be used in self-defence . I am speaking on these lines because I know that the Republican Government has rightly stated that registration of firearms and anything to do with firearms belongs to the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mqanduli district ! MR. GUZANA: Have you toyed, Sir , with the idea of home-guards for the location, not homeguards for chiefs, but home-guards to keep law and order in an administrative area ? These men could be recruited on a voluntary basis with an honorarium , probably, at the end of the year. They will be available to assist the chief, headman or sub-headman to patrol and to keep law and order in the administrative area. After all , law and order is not so much the responsibility of the uniformed police as the responsibility of the citizen in his area , and if these men are registered home-guards they will carry a certain amount of authority and will assist in reducing crime, will stop things like "thwala" which are becoming prevalent... Soldeub to THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is custom. MR. GUZANA: Yes , I see the chiefs moving in their seats because probably that is their familiar practice. (Laughter) This is a matter I recommend to your department, Sir. I feel that if these matters are looked into we shall be able to have a quiet, contented and law-abiding citizenry in the Transkei . I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
134.
The debate was adjourned.
the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We called upon hon. Mr. Majija to put his amendment.
House Resumed Mr. Chairman, if I may MR . GUZANA : mention this , I don't think that at the end of yesterday's sitting we had come to a conclusion on the policy speech of the hon . Minister . I think there were still a few of the members who were still commenting on it. May I crave your indulgence that they be given that opportunity?
The Deputy Chairman reported progress . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 8th May, 1969.
THURSDAY, 8th MAY , 1969 For that THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : matter you were the last to speak , so it will be someone from our side .
Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. CHIEF N. SIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech placed before this House yesterday. I discovered that on both sides of the House there was nothing except favourable comment on the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice . On that account I shall not say anything either to contradict what was said on the other side of the House and I shall not refer to the favourable comments that were made either. I noted , however, that efforts are being
ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , it is becoming a habit for the hon. members to come rather late into the Assembly, both in the morning and during the day. I will ask the members to see to it that they are punctual in coming into the Assembly. TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
made to assist young students to go to Fort Hare to study law. This is a very find gesture on the part of the Government and also the fact that opportunities are being offered to our sons to become efficient prosecutors . Seeing this is only to come into effect in the future , I would like to ask what is being done at the present moment about the people of the Transkei . Even if something is being done for the future I would crave that help be extended to the people . We appreciate the efforts of the Government , especially because there are certain matters which present difficulty to our lower courts and which press the people finally to seek the services of attorneys . A person who seeks the services of an attorney is usually one who knows he is guilty and wants the protection of an attorney , and he does so fully aware that the person in charge of the case does not know much about it. On that account the students who are being given this opportunity will be a great help in this respect. I have already mentioned that the thieves seek the protection of attorneys. Even though they are aware that indeed they are thieves and have stolen, they still seek the protection of the attorney because they know the attorneys will not state the true facts as they are . This is a very painful state of affairs , because we sympathize with the thieves. They are our people and we know they have to pay a fee for the services of an attorney. It is very much appreciated that efforts are being made by your department to afford protection in the manner I have mentioned. The policy speech you have placed before us is very much appreciated and we would like your department to take further steps to promote the suggestions and projects mentioned, because your department ensures the safety and comfort of all the people in the Transkei and if the department slackened its efforts there would be no more comfort for the people of the Transkei. I have not much more to say but I would like to say finally that I encourage the department and the hon. Minister and would like to see their efforts bearing fruit.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. R.334 of 1963, I lay upon the table the Annual Report of the Transkeian Public Service Commission for 1968. Mr. Chairman, when I was delivering my policy speech I intimated that this report would be laid upon the table in the near future . I therefore request you, Sir, to allow the report to be referred to in the course of the discussions on the policy speeches of the various Ministers of the Government. If anything should require my attention I can still stand up and reply to it.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Thank you , we appreciate that. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House now sits in committee to consider the Appropriation Bill. MR. R. MSENGANA : I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Minister wish to reply?
Does the hon.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, it would appear that there are some amendments to this Vote , and one would think we would have to go through them . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Majija put his amendment ?
Will the hon.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , yesterday or the day before there was in front of you a fraudulent document.
135.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in associating myself with the remarks already made by hon. members on this side ...
MR. MGUDLWA : I referred to the document yesterday, in fact. It must be known. THE CHIEF MINISTER : today. What document is it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think it is on record that the hon. member used the words "fraudulent document" and before he proceeds with his speech we would like him to tell us what this fraudulent document is which was tabled or was put forward or was quoted. We would like him to tell us because I submit that the word "fraudulent" would mean that the hon. member who was tabling this document had improper motives. I think that is on record and he should explain it.
MR. MGUDLWA: hosepipe justice .
You referred to it
One is not interested in
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, we are not interested in what the hon. member said yesterday. This morning he said that in front of him he sees a fraudulent document. We would like to know what that fraudulent document is. MR. MGUDLWA: If the hon. members were not interested yesterday, why are they becoming interested today? Now, as I referred to this cobwebby document that is in front of me now....
MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, today in front of me here I see a cobwebby document. One thing I know is that justice is there ....
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the Chairman has already given a ruling that the hon. member must explain - that is all. I think if he does not do that....
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you, Sir , that I would like an explanation about the word "fraudulent " which came from the hon. member. We require that explanation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He should be named. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will you please provide an explanation, hon. member. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: That is the point. MR . MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I referred to this yesterday and I established my trend according to the policy speech when I discussed it, and I do not feel bound to explain in fact beyond any reasonable doubt. One thing I know is that justice is there . One thing that must be done....
MR. MGUDLWA: In fact, an inference had already been made about naming this morning. I am aware of that and I am by no means to be subjected to any kind of intimidation. THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order... MR. MGUDLWA: I will allow no man to intimidate me to such an extent that he makes me hate him.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is evasive and is trying to get away from what he said. We would like to know what this fraudulent document is. He must give us an explanation and tell us where the fraud is and what this fraudulent document is. MR .
L.Z. MAJJA :
THE CHIEF MINISTER I think this is now an insult to the Chair and an insult to everybody. The hon. member has used objectionable words and is refusing now to explain them.
He said it yesterday. MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, I am withdrawing that word.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He said it this morning and we want to know what he meant.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, that is not the point at issue . Nobody has asked him to withdraw.
MR. MGUDLWA: One thing that must be done is that justice must be done and one thing that is necessary is that justice must be seen to be done . One is not interested in jungle justice ; one is not interested in hosepipe justice .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We want an explanation. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We want to know what he meant by that. (General disorder )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must come to an explanation of the word.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, order.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member made a statement. He was asked to explain that statement. He has not done so, but instead he has withdrawn that statement and there the matter ends .
MR. MGUDLWA: The word is self-explanatory. I am not prepared to be a dictionary for another person. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is required is an explanation of the document which is said to be fraudulent it is not the meaning of the word " fraudulent " . We know that.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: not end .
136 .
It does
MR. MGUDLWA : I was talking about my own document. (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: That is what a member should do if he has made a statement which he feels he cannot substantiate . It is to withdraw and he has done so.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , his own documents are not the property of the House and he could not have referred to them.
Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : we wish to get an explanation about this fraudulent document. We are a Government and we would like to know if we are capable of placing fraudulent documents in this House . The hon. member should explain, Mr. Chairman. This is a serious imputation about improper motives on the part of the Ministers . We are not going to be insulted like that.
MR. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman, I thought they were because I am a member of this House and there is a funny thing about the judicial appointments of these African magistrates . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: member....
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this statement has been withdrawn. It is as if it had not been uttered if it is withdrawn. It is therefore not before the House.
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, for some time you have been instructing the hon. member to comply with your instructions and he refuses to do so. The way is clear to the door for such a person. He must leave the Assembly.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, rule 39 says a member shall not impute improper motives to another member. OPPOSITION MEMBER :
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. member disregard the authority of the Chair?
Which member?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That imputation has been made and we would like to know.... OPPOSITION MEMBER :
MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, hon. members, not at all.
He has withdrawn. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please name the document you were referring to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He has not been asked to withdraw. The fact that it is withdrawn does not mean he has not used the expression.
MR. MGUDLWA: I have already named it as my own and I thought as a member of this House I was entitled to refer to it. I have already mentioned it. (Interjections) Now as I said , there are in the appointment of these judicial magistrates ....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I believe it will be necessary for the hon. member to name the document to which he was referring when he made that statement. What document? · That is what is necessary .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. member will have to be named .
MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, this statement has been withdrawn and I feel I am not compelled to name that document and I did not make any imputation to any member. (Interjections)
MR. G.G. KUTU: Chairman...
On a point of order , Mr.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This matter does not permit of any discussion. I will not allow any discussion.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Are you disregarding the Chairman's ruling?
MR. KUTU : May I put a question, Mr. Chairman? The hon. member said he was referring to his own document. What is it that it is required of him , when he has mentioned the document that he referred to , or was it the desire that he should not speak in this House ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is making matters worse . OP POSITION MEMBER : matters worse .
Please, hon.
You are making
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House will have to resolve itself into full House now. Will the hon. Minister move ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You, as Chairman, have given a ruling and he is disregarding that ruling by refusing to give an explanation.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the Chairman of the Assembly resumes his seat.
MR. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have been told in this House , in fact in this cobwebby document here , that there are African magistrates .
House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I have to report to you that I have named Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member, will you please explain to the House what document you were referring to when you used the expression " fraudulent document"? That is all that is required .
THE CHAIRMAN : I call upon the hon. Minister to move . 137 .
"That the member for Engcobo , Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa, be suspended from the service of this Assembly for a period of five days. "
to watch what stock goes in and out of these gates , but these farmers cut the fences and allow the beasts to go through at a point far away from the gates . I will go on to speak about this Jabulani which you have introduced into the Transkei to the destruction of the people of the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman, I second.
MR. T.E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: What has that to do with the Minister's salary?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in terms of rule 48 ( 2 ) I move :-
Mr.
MR. MAJIJA: When I was in Idutywa at one time , I pointed out the beerhall to one of the European secretaries and he merely shook his head when he saw that all the people from the reserves had come to drink beer in this hall. In this beerhall there are fights which sometimes result in death and on that account, because you have brought in this Jabulani and are head of the police. I move that your salary be reduced by this amount.
The motion was carried. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I again move that this House resolve itself into committee. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee
CHIEF D.D.P. amendment.
The debate on Vote 2 of the Estimates of Expenditure was resumed.
NDAMASE :
I second the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is one of the characteristics of human nature to escape self-analysis and put the blame on other people. The Department of Justice is being blamed for boys who carry lethal weapons and go and ambush people during the night. These boys have parents and have come from homes. They leave their homes in broad daylight carrying these lethal weapons. Now, the question may be asked : What is the responsibility of the parent towards his or her ward? I am happy that this question of lethal weapons is being raised and the finger pointed at the Department of Justice when yesterday the police were blamed for raiding the administrative areas and taking lethal weapons. Yes , the hon. member for Engcobo is surprised that I am returning this at him . He was in this very House when the police were accused of raiding administrative areas and taking possession of assegais , knobkerries and battle -axes . (Interjections)
MR . L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I speak while I realise the atmosphere in the Assembly is not very happy. I move as recorded :
" That Vote 2 , Sub-head A, in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R2,000. " It is necessary that we should punish the hon. Minister if his department is not doing its work well. The police under his department do not carry out their duties efficiently. The people in the reserves are not happy. It happens that during the night a gang of boys arrives carrying axes and spears. Two of the gangsters stand at the door of the dwelling while the rest are taking the fowls and pigs and carrying them away and should the householder dare to step out he is in trouble . It has occurred that some people living on the outskirts of the residential area have had to move to the centre of the village to avoid these gangsters . I know also of a teacher who was on his way to school and who was stopped by gangsters , and they asked him to give them instruction on the road there , instead of going to school. They asked the teacher too whether he partook of Kaffir beer and he replied that he did not drink. The boys said: We are pleased you do not drink, but today we will make you drink. They went to the village , bought beer and made the teacher drink. I do not know how we can put an end to stealing because it is plain the police are unable to stop this practice . It is on that account that the people rise against the thieves and try to put an end to this stealing, and when the people take the law into their own hands then the thieves rise against the people . There are farmers in the areas round Ugie and Maclear who are onfriendly terms with these thieves. They carry out these thefts together. The farmers usually ask the theives if the animals come inthe proper manner
Yes, it was the members of the Opposition who said that. Now, is he today saying that the police who were said to be wrong yesterday should go round the administrative areas and collect these lethal weapons ? MR. MAJIJA : The culprits should be dealt with. That is what I mean. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now again, Where is the the question of stolen cattle : Department of Justice going to get the number of police who will have to fill up these administrative areas of the Transkei and see to it that no cattle are being stolen and taken to the White man's farms? And again, the question of Jabulani comes up. There is a wrong impression created by the hon. members across the floor that Jabulani is a responsibility of the Transkei Government. Jabulani is being brewed at the instance of the XDC and , as the hon. member for Mount Frere pointed out , rightly so , before Jabulani can be established in any village or town, applications are made , publications of the applications are made , the communities are given a chance of lodging objections. In any event, I
or not, and if the reply is that they come in in the proper manner then the stock is railed immediately and taken to the stock market. Yes, you have the police at the different gates
138.
fail to see the connection between the presence of Jabulani and the Department of Justice.
should be driven a long distance in order to be impounded.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : The profits accrue to which government?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : be done ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The profits accrue to the owners of the brewery. Now, is the Department of Justice expected to send its police force to every Jabulani installation, to every bar , or to every beer drink to see that there are no fights ? And how many policemen will be required to attend each of these installations ? And you will turn round and say that the police are always seen at the Jabulani installations and probably draw some sinister imputations against them. Ifyou had represented any client in this case against the Minister's salary, I would be saying you have failed to bring a prima facie case . In any event if that is your attorney then I think very little of you. (Laughter) In any event I believe the hon. member for Engcobo moved this amendment just because it was appearing opposite his name , more especially having regard to the high praises which they sounded yesterday with regard to the Department of Justice and I believe his seconder is just going to supply us with some comic relief. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF NDAMASE : But I have just told you what should be done . Here is another matter which worries the people . When a person wants to sell the skin of his beast he is supposed to get a permit, but we find that permits are not available in the offices. The headmen have difficulty and likewise the people who want to sell these skins . I know of a case of a person
What should
who was found guilty because a carcass of a sheep was found in his home , but the sheep was slaughtered for him by friends he had visited. I would also like the hon. Minister to note that in some of the offices there are officials who know nothing whatever about the law. It is satisfactory to note , however , that you require that if the officer who is in charge is an African he must know the law, but if he is a European it does not matter whether he knows the law or not. I would like the hon. Minister to make a note of this. In regard to Jabulani the hon. the Minister of Education says the people are informed and given an opportunity to express their views as regards the sale of Jabulani in their area . I shall not say he is wrong in what he says , but in our area and in some other areas such measures are not taken. All we know is a wood and iron building is put up and in our area there is also a building where we are informed the people will be kept when drunk. (Laughter) One last word, Mr. Chairman, and I would like the hon. Minister to attend to what I am saying . In our area a party went out to follow lost large stock and a request was made to the police to assist in the search. When people are following lost stock they arm themselves, not with firearms because these were taken away from the people , but with other weapons . When the police arrived and saw this party of armed men they immediately arrested some of them and did not carry out the search for the lost beast. Can a person say the police
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the present Minister of Justice carried out his duties in connection with his department very satisfactorily when he was Minister of the Interior. We should like to refer his attention to a matter in his department which we feel is not carried out satisfactorily. The head of the police force , a retired member now, once said that the duty of the police is not to arrest the people but to instruct them in regard to the law. What surprises us is that the police go along the roads and impound beasts which they find within the fences along the roads in the rehabilitated areas . They drive these animals to a place where the fence is not jackal-proof as it is supposed to be , and they say the animals have trespassed. Where a beast has gone through the place that has no gate the police go and arrest the people. They are not satisfied with arresting the people , but also take away the stock and put them into the police van to have them impounded in Ngqeleni. They also write an admission of guilt, a copy of which I have in front of me to the extent of R25 , and I don't know whether it was for sheep or what.
were doing right to do so , or were they just looking for a bribe ? Indeed , this is a painful matter although we laugh at it, because the people were imprisoned and served a three months ' sentence . This is very painful because when the thieves know that the people are following their stock a battle ensues . Seeing that they are arrested if they arm themselves , how are they expected to protect themselves when they are looking for their lost stock? We think the police should go and help the people to find their lost stock.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, if you don't know yourself, how can I know? CHIEF NDAMASE : That is the kind of life the people have to live . All I say is that I am not sure whether this R25 refers to sheep or large stock. One person was fined R30 for beasts which had gone through the gate and all those beasts were driven to be impounded. What should happen is that if stock has trespassed they should be driven to the headman and inquiries made as to who the owner is . Stock should not just be impounded. This is not treating the animals with sympathy in this regard. What should be done is that the owner should be found and he should be made to pay a fine , rather than that the animals
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall allow only one speaker now on this amendment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as a matter of fact the hon. member who has just sat down is very fond of collecting a lot of nonsense . I did not appreciate all he was saying , except that he was merely engaging in conversation. All I can do is to remind him of what Mr. Mdledle said last year. He mentioned it was intended to suspend the operation of the Stock Theft Act of 1959 , 139.
which means that the issue of produce permits would be discontinued . The hon. member can read it for himself in the Hansard. I am merely standing up to reply because you said only one member could speak.
to look after him as is done in England, in Germany and in other countries . It is not because the chiefs are afraid , but because we want the chief to have respect and he must be looked after properly. You have had motions about this and you have had this pointed out to you. Even the chiefs who have no home-guards we would like to have home-guards. These guards are very useful to all the people. Why are you jealous that some people should receive this pay? The old people are receiving their old-age pensions. That pension will not be raised because of this amount. It will remain what it is and there is no reason why we should not have homeguards. There are not very many of them. We have only about five in one case and three in another. What I want you to understand is that this money is paid to the Bantu people - people of your own race . You appreciate the services of these home-guards but merely want to make propaganda out of this because you want to make fun of all things , even the good things. (Interjections ) I am sorry the hon. Mr. Guzana is not here, but he mentioned that you are a very good team . Past members such as Mr. Rajuili will be very disappointed to hear that. (Laughter ) I will tell Mr. Bubu and Mr. Mda what the leader said about them . I am sorry Mr. Mda's sister is sitting there. In one word I would like to say to all members of the Assembly: Let us leave this Vote as it is and do not bring this motion again to the House. There are very few people in these home-guards and their pay is very low. Whenyou speak about this it is like speaking about five cents . Let us leave this matter alone . You have not come to talk about such things and you must not bring it up again. I am tired now and would like to sit down. On that side somebody referred to these home-guards and spoke very unfavourably about them. In the past if he had thought properly he would appreciate the services of the homeguards . I will just end there because I do not want him to be disappointed. I am sorry that an unfavourable statement was made about the front-benchers on the other side because it was said that the present front-benchers are very strong and their predecessors were not very strong. This is a very surprising remark. I will make known this statement. I don't think they will attend any of your party meetings any more. (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall ask the hon. Mr. Majija to move his second amendment. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move as it appears on the order paper : "That Vote 2 , Sub-head A, Item 2, Home Guards be deleted. " Because of the troubles and distrubances in the Transkei these home-guards were employed. It was as a result of Proclamation R.400 that these home-guards came into being in an effort to try to put an end to the trouble that was frequent in the Pondo area. On account of the "Congo" that existed then there was justification for this proclamation, but thereafter the disturbances came to an end. In 1963 we began to have the elections of members to this House . At the time there was peace and there was no disturbance of any kind , as there is peace at the present time. In his policy speech the hon. Minister mentioned that the Transkei is a very peaceful area. I agree that we have peace in the Transkei . What I do not agree with is his statement to the effect that it is only since the inception of this Government that peace has reigned. We had peace long before the coming into being of this Government. Seeing that we have peace I do not see any reason why an amount of money should be voted for these home-guards. What is their work, seeing we have peace in the country? If you go to East London you will find people who kill others , but they have not had any of these home-guards . Similarly, in Port Elizabeth people die daily but they have not had money earmarked for these home -guards . There are people, however, who need to be helped financially. This money should be used to increase pensions given to the aged and the cripples , rather than have the money go to healthy, strong people who themselves cause trouble in the villages. I shall not say very much but all I say is that this Vote be deleted . MR. B.S. MNYANI : I second.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the mover of this amendment. I would like to say that a chief has never been guarded . It is surprising today to find we have expenditure allocated for the guarding of chiefs - a Vote which ought to help the old and infirm , because these chiefs are the children of the old people who ought to be supported. It is on that point that we would like the Government to consider this and increase the emoluments for old-age pensioners and Votes such as these should be taken for that purpose. It is true we had regulations such as these at the time when there were disturbances in the country - a regulation which was declared as a state of emergency an emergency regulation which is not needed in times of peace . Indeed, now that we have no disturbances these regulations should be abolished. We only use the
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I don't agree with this suggestion that this Vote should be removed altogether . The home -guards are very important and they are guarding the chiefs . If you have no home-guard you are not a proper chief. MR. MAJIJA :
Where are your counsellors ?
PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: The chief should have a home-guard about him.
MR. MAJIJA: The chief should go with his not a guard . counsellors about him PARAMOUNT
CHIEF
SIGCAU:
We
are
following inthe footsteps of the Cape Town parliament. An important person must have a guard 140.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In connection with the committee stage?
emergency regulations when there is need for them but not in peacetime. Outside countries are surprised that we still retain these emergency regulations and they wonder for what reason. As a result of retaining these regulations we are paying people who should be working for themselves , instead of increasing the emoluments for the poor and aged , or the money could be used to increase bursaries to students . We say whole-heartedly that this money should be used where it ought to be used and not to pay home-guards. We are told that chiefs and paramount chiefs have never required homeguards in the past. (Interjections ) They were guarded by their own men and the headmen. What sort of chiefs are these who must be guarded? Are we really working in truth when we say we want to pay for guards for the chiefs? In other countries we don't hear of people being guarded. Even Queen Elizabeth is not guarded. (Laughter) One day whenMr. MacMillan arrived here he was guarded by a big team of police and a Member of Parliament asked how the people would see this man while the police were crowding round him. Mr. MacMillan himself said: " How will I see this country with a crowd of police around me ?" He asked where the Bantu people lived, the people who took part in the war with him. He was told they were present and he asked how he would see them with a crowd of police around him. This habit of guarding people is practised only here. These important people are not guarded in their own areas. We would like this Vote to be withdrawn altogether. There is no need for these homeguards. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Yes , Mr. Chairman , my MR . GUZANA: attention has been drawn to a Press report in the African edition of the Daily Dispatch dated Thursday, 8th May, 1969 , wherein an erroneous report was made. The allegation in the report is that I said there was collusion between the police and stock thieves in the Transkei . I am "I have then further quoted to have said: witnessed and heard a number of cases where the police demand bribes from people. " I have consulted the stenographer on this point and I now read the stenographer's record as transcribed for me. I quote the words : " Now in the mind of the ordinary man in the street this is the conclusion to which he comes - that there is collusion between the stock thieves and the police, that if anybody complains to the police he must bring along a bribe to the police before any investigation takes place. " The reporter has been interviewed by me on this report that he He has conceded the put in the newspaper . incorrectness of his report and has tendered his apologies and has promised to correct his That is all the report which is erroneous. explanation, Mr. Chairman. I thank you. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , we shall continue with Vote 2 and I shall allow only one more speaker, the hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani of Umtata, on this Vote. The debate was resumed. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment by the hon. Mr. Majija referring to home-guards . I shall refer to some other home-guards that are in existence , apart from those which guard the chiefs. There are home-guards employed bythe Municipality of Umtata in the locations . These home-guards are composed of police in the same manner as the home-guards under this department. The people who live in Ngangelizwe
Order, please.
MR. NKOSIYANE : We have emergency regulations only when there is trouble , but there is no trouble now. We would like the Government to take note of this and not use public funds for useless efforts. Please take note that our young people cannot go to work centres unless they go on contract, and if we do not increase the old-age pensions how will the old mothers On that account we advocate that these live ? Votes should be allocated to the old-age pension fund because the sons cannot go to seek work. It is on that account that we advocate this Vote should be used to increase the old-age pensions . It is a very bad thing to neglect your parents . I wish the hon. members would take note of this because it is a very important matter. Let us leave the state of emergency and not have these Who are the people who require regulations . to be guarded? The time for these emergency regulations is over. Lift them so that people We are given freedom to may live happily. express ourselves freely. Why then must we have home-guards to look after the chiefs?
Location thought these guards would guard them against "tsotsis " . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are employed by the Municipality, not by the Department of Justice.
MR. MNYANI : Now, these home-guards go from house to house awakening the people . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, this hon. member is highly irrelevant. Those police reservists have nothing to do with the Department of Justice . They are municipal police. MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Education says these gome-guards have nothing to do with the Department of Justice . The strange thing is that when they apprehend anybody there they bring him to the office of the Department of Justice . (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, I have a right to speak and if I am not on the right lines you These are people who have voted will rule . for me and I will therefore speak about their
The debate was adjourned. The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave your indulgence on a point of expnanation? 141 .
hardships. There are other people to whom I refer as home-guards who arrest the women who sell their wares in the streets here. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: they paid out of this Vote?
But are
travelling from the Tolofiya houses into Umtata. This money has been used to travel from one headman to the other and to give something to these headmen in return for whatever services they may render . I was also visited and I refused to accept the offer of this money. (Laughter) The headmen are advised to collect the reference books of the people in the reserves and those who are going to vote for a TNIP member.
MR. MNYANI : I note these home -guards are not in any uniform . I say this because I want to tell you about the hardships suffered by the people I represent. These people throw out the food that is being sold by the women in the streets here . It is a very painful thing to ask Bantu people to see food thrown out in the street.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: tell lies .
CHIEF ZULU: As I have already suggested I think this money should be used to pay people doing relief work on the roads .
MR . R. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman, the business before the House is the deletion of item 2 in respect of home-guards . The people referred to by the speaker are not paid from this Vote.
MR. N. JAFTA:
refers to page 7 of my policy, speech delivered yesterday "Among other things my department renders agency services for many Transkeian and Republican departments. " I will now take the districts . These magistrates sometimes go out into the districts to propagate government information or, as it does happen, when paying teams go out to the rural areas to pay social benefits or in the case of installations of headmen and chiefs . I am quoting this by way of example. This amount is expended on such services . Will the hon. member say that these amounts must not be taken to the people out there , or must they come and fetch them from the offices? I have nothing more to add. I was merely pointing out to the hon. member to what use this is put.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Before we proceed to the amendment by the hon. Chief H. Zulu, does the hon. Minister wish to reply?
CHIEF H. ZULU: members I move :-
OF
JUSTICE :
No, Mr.
Mr. Chairman and hon,
" That Vote 2 , Sub-head B, Item 2 , Motor Transport, be reduced by R800 . "
Mr. Chairman, we consider that the amount of money voted for this should be decreased as we do not see what work is being done and we would like this R800 to be voted for other work in the Transkei . We note that this money is used for transport of Government members in pursuance of duties that are not government duties. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not altogether certain that the hon. member is sure of what he is saying, or that he appreciates the debate. I think he is under the impression that the amount under discussion is for the transport of Ministers or Government officials . If he
MR. MNYANI : I thank you , Mr. Chairman. This sort of home-guard joins hands with the police in their efforts to drive the women away from the streets and you find these women chased with dogs on their tracks. Are you aware that these women are trying to earn a little cash to be able to take mealie -meal home , as there are no channels of employment for them? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER Chairman.
You can
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Whilst you are on your feet, you have "Motor Transport" and "General Transport " . How do you distinguish between these two? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I have already dealt with motor transport. General transport, as I said, is railway transport.
Quote!
MR. GUZANA : No , you haven't mentioned railway transport yet. Give us several examples of general transport.
CHIEF ZULU: If there is a party, say, at Ndabakazi , Government members attend and this transport is used for the purpose. I think it would be advisable if this money could be used to pay relief workers on the roads or for the poor of the Transkei . We note that this money is used for the transportation of these people who merely cause trouble in the locations and in the reserves . It has been whispered to me by a member on the other side that this money is used also to defray expenses for bye -elections . We note also that it was used during election periods where the government vehicles were used for purposes of canvassing these areas. We don't know why so much money should be voted merely to defray expenses of people
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Such things as transport of State witnesses in cases where they have to move from one district to another. This is under "General " . MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the amendment and in doing so I shall not dwell long on the matter . There are two other matters I wish to refer to in connection with this department. Much has already been said. We were informed that the police stations in the areas I have mentioned have been handed over to this Government.
142.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I have sought opinion on this matter and what I have said is quite correct. In fact, what we are going to do next is just amend the Minister's salary and go through every item under his Vote , and what I say is correct, Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon. member, the amendment is that Vote 2.B.2 , Motor Transport, be reduced by R800 . MR. JAFTA: I stated that I support the amendment but would refer to other matters. The purpose of these amendments is to give us an opportunity to speak.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , the truth of the whole matter is that in the absence of my hon. friend across the floor you closed the discussion under that amendment and passed on to the next one , unless you will retract from your decision to close the discussion on that particular amendment and then you will allow him to digress as much as he can. The fact that we have not voted on that amendment does not mean that you did not close the discussion under that amendment.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No. MR. JAFTA: We have been informed that these police are under this Government but we are now informed that that is not the case. I would like to know how that comes about. It is a constant cry among the people that the wives of the police do not get free medical services such as is extended to their husbands who are in the police force. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: transport?
Is this motor
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now continue with the discussion on this amendment in regard to motor transport.
MR. JAFTA: There is a further complaint from the people which we would like the Government to note, with reference to passports . THE CHIEF MINISTER: to say. Sit down.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I speak now I am referring to the Department of Justice and I would like attention to be paid to this matter of passports. (Laughter)
You have nothing
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are out of order . We are not dealing with passports .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, the discussion is on motor transport, please. I am not in a position to allow deviation from that.
MR. JAFTA: The question of passports is inconveniencing the people of the Transkei.
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not think any member should be curtailed here . We have an amendment here by the hon. Mr. Majija that Vote 2, Sub-head A, in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R2,000.
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Out of order !
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you resume your seat, please , hon. member.
That is finished.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, the amount provided under these estimates is slightly reduced from that provided for the previous year. That is on page 7 Sub-head B.2 , Subsistence and Transport . Is there any explanation for that reduction? Secondly, how much of that amount voted for the 1968/1969 financial year was used? And in what way shall we have this expenditure itemized?
MR. GUZANA: That amendment has not been put to this House and a decision made on it, and when we seek to reduce the Minister's salary, the Minister being head of the department, so long as that amendment has not been decided by a vote we can talk about any matter under the department. If the Chairman seeks to rule the hon. member out of order in respect of that particular amendment relating to motor transport he can exercise his right under the first amendment.
-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am unable to reply to the hon. member at the onset. He wants to know how much was spent last year and he is asking for detail. I will ask him to table his question.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I am sure that with your thorough knowledge of the rules of procedure you will not be misled and bamboozled by an attorney who is used to defending clients even when he has no case. (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA: You are the Minister and you should know. Is this a confession? Mr. Chairman, obviously then the hon. the Minister of Justice does not know what he needs this money for because when he is asked to itemize this expenditure he tells us he cannot do it.
MR. GUZANA: When have I ever done that? That is an insult to me. You must prove that. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER: He said he can't do it at the moment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He is used to defending clients in a court of law and is trying to extricate his friend from the trouble he is in. The fact is that you disposed of two amendments and we are now dealing with the third amendment. I hope you will not retract from your ruling.
MR. GUZANA: Why should this Assembly agree to an amount being appropriated for a service in connection with which the hon. Minister cannot satisfy this House ? It would be highly irresponsible for us to make a blanket endorsement 143 .
cials of the Government . (Interjections) So, Mr. Chairman, even if they do not approve of this , we always expect that from them and they must go on disapproving of it and see if that will succeed. You may disapprove daily, we do not care and you can go on disapproving. We cannot help you when you are unable to be convinced. We are trying by all means to explain it - how can we explain it more ? Instead of appreciating the action of the department in reducing the amount expended last year to show that the Government is a responsible one , you want the details to say that a certain vehicle went to such and such a place on such and such a day....
of these items of expenditure whenthe Ministers on being called upon to do so cannot give us details . When a Minister brings his Vote before this House he must know each and every detail relating to each and every item in respect of which he requires this House to vote money. I think it is an act of irresponsibility if the hon. Minister is not going to justify an amount of money which he seeks appropriated for a particular service . Mr. Minister, we feel that the reduction is justified because you have not been able to supply us with details . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as Minister of Finance I think I should make it clear to the hon. members across the floor that it would be ridiculous for them to seek to know every detail of the expenditure in the departmental expenditures. From these estimates you will find that we give the broad details and we have not got the minute details. A reasonable person would appreciate that the Vote has been reduced by the amount of R1,500. The Treasury when calling upon
MR. GUZANA :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : ....and another vehicle left Flagstaff and went to Ngquza hill . MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, nobody doubts the fact that the Ministers are political figures and that they have to implement policy. In implementing policy they have got to use the funds of the Government and we want to know how these funds are used .
the departments to submit their Votes request them to try to cut down expenditure as much as possible in order to save unnecessary expenditure because of the inflation in the country. Now, to call upon the hon. Minister to make a detailed analysis of the expenditure of R30,000 last year at this stage is ridiculous.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What more do you want?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is a departmental affair which should be sought by way of reply to a question which has been tabled.
We shall reply THE CHIEF MINISTER : "No". Put the question in writing.
MR. GUZANA: We just want to know so many thousand rand have been used in this particular regard...
MR. GUZANA : Therefore we have to know how the amount is used which is headed "Motor Transport" , and we must know therefore that of this R30,000 , R3,000 was used in respect of this type of motor transport; R2,000 in respect of that type of motor transport, and these figures should be readily available in the department as they have been collated from reports from the various districts . None of us is so irresponsible as to seek information as to when a particular car left Flagstaff and how much petrol was put in and when it arrived in Tabankulu and how many miles were covered .
That is nonsense.
MR. GUZANA: No , it is necessary. THE CHIEF MINISTER : writing if you want it. MR. GUZANA: fiable request .
We have told you.
MR. GUZANA : If the Cabinet Ministers claim they are political figures we are going to ask whether motor transport is not in fact used for political ends .
MR. GUZANA: Why is it?
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
No , we are not asking that.
Well, put it in
Why should I? It is a justi-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Minister has already given you how this money has been spent.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: In fact that is whay you want.
MR . GUZANA: He has not. He told me it is used for distributing pensions and what have you. I want to know how much....
MR. GUZANA: R28,500 is a considerable amount even if it shows a reduction from the All we Vote originally approved last year. need to know now, since you have taken up an ostrich attitude and buried your head in the said, is: Are you able to defend or justify the appropriation which you seek under Motor Transport? You can say Yes , you can say No.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There are 26 districts of the Transkei and all these districts falling under the Department of Justice have got to fall under this expenditure . If we have to call upon the Minister of the Department of Justice to give the details then we have got to supply you with all those details coming from the 26 districts . You must understand the position of the Ministers and their responsibility. The Ministers are not departmental officials . We are political figures here to defend policy and we have not got to query the expenditure which has been made by the transferred offi-
THE CHIEF MINISTER:
We have explained
it. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I think we have had enough discussion now on this Vote. I wonder if the hon. Minister is ready to reply? 144.
think he will move even faster because the increment notch is higher than under the old scheme. For example, the increment notch of the magistrates under the old scale was R84 , whereas it is now R90 which takes up to R2,520 and thereafter it is R120 .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in reply to certain observations I will start with those made by the hon. Mr. Madikizela. He said he would like to see the number of station commanders in the Transkei increased. The number of stations in the Transkei which are manned by African staff is eight. I do not know whether he would like to know what stations have station commanders , but they are as follows :-
1. 2.• 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8.
MR. GUZANA: May I put a question? Here is a man who has been at the top notch under the old scale for three or four years . The scales are revised and the higher notch is now R300 . Is that man placed on the R300 notch?
Gqaka, Engcobo district Sulenkama , Qumbu district Tina Falls, Qumbu Tsomo Flagstaff Bisi Gowan Lea, Umzimkulu Tabase , Mount Fletcher
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, he is not, he has to go step by step. If he had reached the R2,556 notch he will be given a notch of R120 until he reaches the maximum. Reaching the maximum notch does not mean that the man is already at the pensionable stage , but he has got to take all the steps of the ladder until he gets to the top notch. For example , the assistant magistrate at Tsomo is now at R1,800 . Now he has got to take all those steps until he reaches R2,340 which is the highest notch, and if he were promoted to rank of magistrate he would probably be given two notches and not be put on the notch R2,340 .
These are the stations manned by Transkeian citizens , and we are endeavouring to see that whenever it is possible we place a Transkeian citizen - that is , of course , in collaboration The same with the Republican Government. member mentioned the salaries paid to magistrates. I would like to refer him to the reply by the hon. the Chief Minister to a question by the hon. Mr. Singata on the order paper of the 6th May, and add that there was an increase in salaries as from October last year. Formerly, the scale for the magistrates was R1,800 x 84-O R2,556 per annum . They are now on the new scale which is R2,340 x 90 R2,520 x 120 · R3,260. The hon. member will therefore note that there is a difference between the old and the new scales . I realise however that no-one can ever say he is receiving enough money, but this shows that the Government is sparing no efforts to try to raise the salary scales of its servants .
MR. GUZANA : Now , you will concede that because of the revised scale it will take him a longer period of service to get to the top notch. Mr. Chairman, here is a man on a scale of R2,000 rising to R3,000 . He serves nine years and he is getting R2,900 . The scales are revised and the maximum is now R4,000 and the minimum R3,000 . He is rising by R100 per annum . If I understood the hon. the Chief Minister well, it means that this man will get two notches of advancement and will be earning R3,100 and he has to go through another nine years ' service to get to the top notch. It takes him now about 18 years to get to the top notch and a new man employed in a post similar to his is only R100 per year less than this man who has served nine years , in spite of the fact that the other officer has already served this Government for nine years. It would seem equitable if the man who is on the R2,900 notch should be moved to R3,100 so that he does not have to serve a longer period to reach the top notch than the man who joined, say, ten years after the first officer.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the hon. Minister? In adjusting the notches of the magistrates who have been affected by this new adjustment of scales , may the House know whether they have been moved proportionately so that they do not suffer a disadvantage by reason of the fact that they have been on the lower scale ? In other words , has their adjustment not lengthened the period which they have to serve before they reach their maximum under the new scale ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr, Chairman, that is in exceptional cases when a man is highly qualified and is promoted in a very fast manner to reach the position for which he is qualified. For example , you take the position of this assistant magistrate I refer to, Mr. Toni , who is in Tsomo. He has not got many years in the service but there are clerks who have many years of service who are still in the ranks of senior clerks below him , but some ofthese clerks might be earning R1,890 – that is , R90 above what the assistant magistrate of Tsomo is getting. Now, it is not feasible for a man with the qualifications of a magistrate and his long period of service to have a newcomer going above him, but the Public Service Commission could not increase Mr. Toni's salary and disregard the short service he has given to the Government, but his case was properly dealt with in that he
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Inthe process of raising the salaries of civil servants to a certain notch he is shifted from one notch to another and I do not think there will be any hardship suffered by anybody in these increases . MR . GUZANA : My question was whether or not they will take a longer period to get to the maximum . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No.
MR. GUZANA : So if he has three years to reach the maximum under the old scale , he will have three years to reach the maximum under the new scale ? THE CHIEF MINISTER :
Mr. Chairman, I 145.
The sum of R569,000 under Vote 2, Department of Justice , was passed to stand part of the schedule .
was increased, let us say, from about R1,680 to R1,800 but he still has to go a long way before he gets to the position of being a magistrate . But should he be promoted to the rank of magistrate it means he will have to be put on that notch of R2,340 so that the Public Service Commission deals with each individual case on its merits .
POLICY STATEMENT - MINISTER OF EDUCATION Mr. Chairman , Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly.
MR. GUZANA : Would I be correct in saying that the villain in the whole thing is that salary scales overlap? THE CHIEF MINISTER :
You may recall that when I addressed this Assembly a year ago , I sketched the progress that had been achieved by my Department during the first four years or so since its inception in December , 1963. Whilst justly proud of its achievements in such a short space of time, my Department is alive to the fact that there is room for improvement and that even greater efforts will have to be made not only in this connection but also to meet the challenge of advances and rapidly-changing approaches in the educational field. With this in mind, my Department enters this new five -year period with the intention of consolidating what has gone before , improving wherever necessary and doing everything within its power to ensure that the Transkei does not lag behind in this , the most important aspect of our endeavours towards progress .
Yes, that's right.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I was under the impression that the hon. the Minister of Justice was still speaking . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I shall pass on now to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He mentioned the proposed regional authority courts bill. At this stage I am not prepared to say anything but will do so at the proper time . He also mentioned the appearance and dress of our police . I am sure he was not referring to the Transkei police but to the Republican police , because the Transkei police (and know it) are always presentable in their dress . They look well after their uniforms. The hon. member will remember that these men are sometimes out on horseback and in the rural areas , and it is to be expected that people who work in such conditions will look shabby. It is a painful situation that traders should not have firearms because what the hon. member said yesterday was the truth and I agree entirely with him , but I want to remind hon. members that the question of the issue of the licences for firearms is not a concern of my department. It is true that applications go through the offices of my department and we sometimes recommend applications , but it may happen that they are turned down. I hope some of you have seen a draft bill in connection with firearms in the Republic and I have an idea that that draft bill embodies many amendments to the present act. All I can say is that my department sympathizes with those shopkeepers who have no firearms. In connection with articled clerks , with particular reference to the fact that they are not given adequate allowances from their principals , I do not think this matter can be considered by the Government because it is a matter between the clerk and his principal . I believe quite a number of attorneys today are on their feet and they have not referred this matter to the Government. I think the hon. member should consult with the Law Society if he feels these articled clerks are not getting enough. In regard to the allegations of bribery, Ithink you have corrected that so I shall not go into that, as apparently you were misreported in the newspaper. With those words I move that Vote 2 be passed.
Mr. Chairman, the Transkei is experiencing a social, political and economic upheaval . It is undergoing a growth of industry , a rehabilitation of the land and a rapid development of urban towns , villages and rural townships . New needs and demands for consumer goods, public services, amenities and facilities are arising and the success with which we are able to meet this new situation will depend upon our ability to accept and effect fundamental changes and approaches in our existing educational system. No worthwhile educational system can afford to remain static in a rapidly - changing world and we will have to keep pace if we are to provide solutions to the new problems that have been created. It is thus essential , Mr. Chairman, that our educational system be so geared that it is able not only to supply the new knowledge and new techniques necessary but also to see to it that sufficient individuals are educated to make and supply the necessities that the new society demands . We have to ensure that our children are properly equipped to play a full part in the life that surrounds them and that their education not only serves our present needs but also those of the future . Those of our people who are keenly interested in our future development will agree with me, I am sure , when I say that the Transkei is suffering from the effects of conservatism and tradition in regard to education. In the past it has confined itself almost entirely to an academic system of education and the production of the "white collar" professional classes such as teachers , nurses , lawyers , doctors , etc.
The first amendment by the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija was put and lost. The second amendment by the hon. Mr. Majija was put and lost.
The professional man will always remain an essential part of our life for it is only he who can give the non-professional the basic knowledge required to develop his inherent ability and skills , but I submit, Mr. Chairman, that the time has
The third amendment by the hon. Chief H. Żulu was put and lost.
146.
proceed to university for the attainment of degrees , so that there are unlimited opportunities for those who have the basic interest and ability.
now come for equal attention to be given to the creation of the semi-skilled and the skilled artisan classes. How else can we , and I include the professional, obtain the individuals who build our homes and supply us with our furniture , our machinery, our food and our clothing ? How else can we acquire mechanics , electricians , radiotricians, plumbers, roadmakers, transport and machine operators?
The courses to be offered at the Umtata Technical College as well as at the Lusikisiki Vocational Training School , which is also scheduled to open in January, 1970, will shortly be made known and I wish through you , Mr. Chairman, to direct an appeal to Honourable Members to impress upon their constituents the importance of and the advantages to be gained from technical and vocation training.
My Department fully realises the need for the diversification of the educational system if it is to cater for modern demands and is to aid in the future development of the Transkei , and one of the directions in which it must of necessity go is in the field of vocational and technical education. It is only this branch of education that can produce the semi- skilled and skilled artisan classes that are so essential ifthe needs of the ordinary man in the street are to be satisfied.
Mr. Chairman, I will now turn to the estimates of expenditure for my Department for the financial year ending 31st March , 1970 . The bulk of the provision under Vote 3 is again earmarked for the payment of salaries and allowances to teaching staff, the inspectorate and to head office professional , administrative and other staff and the amount provided for this purpose represents an increase of R504,100 over that of last year. This increase includes the payment of annual increments , a vacation savings bonus to civil servants and provides for the annual increase in teaching posts , as well as an increase , this year, in administrative , clerical and domestic posts .
Scientific , technological and industrial progress lead to more and more complicated types of work, so that the workers of modern times need a higher level of skill and of education than ever before. In these circumstances , and at the risk of being accused of harping on the same string, I wish to repeat, Mr. Chairman, that no educational system can afford to limit itself to academic education only. It must enable every individual to earn a living according to the needs of his community and, with the shortage in all walks of life in the Transkei of skilled technicians, the doors are wide open for the economic development and advancement of such people .
The teaching establishment has risen to a new high of 6,799 posts , an increase of 300 or 5% of the total number of posts available in the previous year and , on this basis , an increase of a further 340 posts has been budgeted for in the current year at an estimated cost of R77,000. I might add that the bulk of these posts is filled only in January, the beginning of the new school year , and the amount provided is therefore only intended to cover the last two months or so of the current financial year.
In view of what I have already said, it gives me great pleasure , Mr. Chairman , to inform this Assembly that the long-awaited technical college is about to become fact. Honourable Members will have noticed that the erection of the buildings for this college has reached an advanced stage and I have every confidence that classes will commence during January, 1970 .
The annual increase in the school-going population necessitates , from time to time , an increase in the administrative , clerical and other staff and it has become necessary this year to provide additional posts in this category at an estimated cost of R19,000 .
The success or otherwise of this new venture will depend entirely upon the attitude of the people of the Transkei . In saying this , I have in mind the fact that we have always regarded vocational training as somewhat inferior to other branches of education and something which is only undertaken by the backward child, who is incapable of benefitting by a higher education, or by the so-called labouring class.
Because of an increase in the Department's activities , it has again become necessary to increase the provision under Subhead B for subsistence and transport. The considerable increase reflected for postal, telegraphic and telephonic services is caused by the need for the Department to affix postage stamps to all mail matter in terms of a new arrangement which affects all government offices.
Mr. Chairman, although this may have been the position in the past, circumstances compel us to change our attitude . Scientific progress has in modern times been so rapid that there is no longer any room in a technical system of education for the average or backward pupil. Greater scientific advancement has been made during the last 25 to 30 years than in the whole of man's previous existence on earth, so that to-day technical education demands the finest brain, the highest ability and the most adept hands.
Provision under Subhead D is in accordance with the requirements of my Department for the current year and requires no further explanation. Apart from an increase which makes provision for the introduction of a new filing system , it has been found necessary to re -arrange some of the items under Subhead E in order to facilitate administration.
As technical training will also proceed tothe matriculation level, pupils who so desire may
147 .
The scheme will be introduced in January, 1970 and details will be made available in the near future.
The costs of supplies and services to schools and hostels continue to rise and , in addition to maintaining existing services, it has become necessary this year to provide an amount of R24,000 for the purchase of science equipment for post-primary schools . The opening of the techinical college in Umtata and the vocational training school at Lusikisiki in January, 1970 will necessitate the purchase of furniture and equipment for school and hostel use as well as foodstuffs , cleaning materials , light and water, etc. , for the two hostel establishments and provision for this purpose has had to be made. It has also become necessary to provide accommodation for an additional 50 and 30 boarders respectively at the Sigcau Training and Teko Vocational Training Schools, thus involving additional expenditure in the purchase of furniture , foodstuffs , etc.
Subheads H and L show normal increases which do not require specific attention. Under Subhead J, provision has been made for the Department's share of 90% of the total cost of providing a needlework centre as well as extensions to the dining-hall at the Efata School for Blind and Deaf Children, and two rooms for Handwork and Physiotherapy at the Ikwezi Lokusa School for Cerebral Palsied Children. During the previous financial year a subsidy scheme was introduced to assist communities who wished to provide hostel facilities at government secondary schools . Demands for assistance under the scheme have been such that it has become necessary to increase provision for this purpose by R10,000 as reflected under Subhead K.
I have already indicated , Mr. Chairman, that my Department's most important function is to ensure that the child is properly equipped to play a full part in the development ofthe Transkei. Consequently , it cannot confine itself simply to providing facilities which will assist the child to obtain a reasonable standard of education. It must also assist the bright child to obtain a higher education and it does so by granting study bursaries.
Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , I thank you for your attention and move that Vote 3 be adopted . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We have not sufficient time to continue with this Vote so I shall ask the Minister to move that I report progress .
In the past, the Department has confined itself to bursaries for postmatriculation study whilst the granting of pre-matriculation bursaries has been left in the hands of Regional Authorities . However, experience has taught that, unless a greater number of matriculants with mathematics and physical science qualifications becomes available , the tempo at which professional and technical posts can be taken over by Transkei citizens will be much too slow. It has therefore been decided to supplement the present bursary schemes by introducing one which it is hoped will produce the material so urgently required .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : accordingly, Mr. Chairman.
I move
House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 9th May, 1969. FRIDAY, 9th MAY, 1969
Prayers were read.
This new scheme , for which 50 bursaries will be available annually, is intended for the bright pupil who is prepared to study in a direction which will eventually lead to his being absorbed in professional and technical posts in the Transkei Government Service. In order to ensure the success of the scheme, pupils will be selected from amongst those taking the Junior Certificate course at the various secondary schools in the Transkei and selection will be guided by an aspirant bursar's scholastic achievement and aptitude . In other words , the aim will be to separate the wheat from the chaff so that special attention can be given to those who have the ability to succeed .
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the Report of the Department of the Interior for the years 1967/1968. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the report of the Department of Education for the year 1967.
The pupils so selected will be sent to a high school , of the Department's choice , where the best tuition and equipment will be available and the bursary awarded will be sufficient to cover the costs of board and lodging as well as of books .
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I move that this House now sits in committee .
Should a bursar who has successfully completed the matriculation course wish to proceed to a University, he will naturally qualify for consideration for a further bursary .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Agreed to.
148.
I second.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if we are a properly constituted House after that, but I shall raise my point in the committee stage.
Assembly first met, that a resolution was passed in this House to the effect that education must be kept above politics. Everybody in the Transkei was so jubilant to hear that as it appeared Furthermore , Mr. in the Press statements . Chairman, it was also resolved that the medium of instruction in Transkei education should be English. Dedicating myself on those terms I do believe the subject we are discussing today is a very important one because the aim of those resolutions was centred round the child in the school. As I am always regarded as saying things which the hon. Ministers interpret as being not true I want to say at once that I swear in this House that what I have got to say here is the truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God. (Laughter) We have listened to the hon. the Minister of Education yesterday when he was giving his policy speech on education. To anybody's mind the language used was very good , and any examiner who was to give marks for his grammatical expression would give him 5 upon 7 · but woe unto the contents . From the first page up to the last one it was all a matter of telling the Transkei people about the technical college that is being built near the location and a vocational training school at Lusikisiki. The hon. Minister has told us in this House that the numbers of children in the schools have increased and new posts have been created , maintaining in some of his statements that in his Vote an increase has been earmarked . Let us now consider the facts as they are , taking first the increase in the number of pupils in the classroom and the increase of posts for teachers , including the clerical posts . What is surprising in his policy speech is that he has never had to commit himself in the administration of his department , because while he maintains that the numbers of children have increased , the children have no teachers in the schools. Further , with regard to the increase in the money which he maintains to have accrued one wonders what is the source of this increase . I want to submit to the hon. Minister that to my view, while I have said that there are no teachers in the classrooms , the money that has been voted for in the last financial year has not all been used because if there are no teachers in the schools it means that money has been dormant.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, is it in connection with the committee stage? MR. GUZANA : No , Sir, it is in connection with the Assembly sitting ordinarily. It is in the minutes , item : "The Minister of Justice moves that Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa be suspended from the business of the House for a period of five days. " I wonder if the terminology as appears in the rules should not be used as there might be a different interpretation to the record as it appears in the minutes . This appears on page 10 under rule 48 (2) . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact when I moved I quoted from the rule itself - that is, to be suspended from the service of this Assembly for a period of five sitting days. I agree with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that as it appears here it is not quite what it should really be. THE CHAIRMAN: hon. members.
I think that is clear,
House in Committee
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , we shall now proceed from where we left off yesterday with Vote 3, Education. The hon. the Minister of Education had moved and I should like now to call for a seconder. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
I second.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think this is most irregular . If the Minister of Education moved yesterday he should have received a seconder yesterday . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There was a seconder yesterday. MR. GUZANA : We cannot just have a seconder . It has been indicated to me that there was no seconder yesterday. The hon. Minister must move again today.
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
Give the analysis .
MR. DUMALISILE : Of?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am sorry, hon. members , it should have been seconded .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : relation to the children.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I remember standing yesterday to second .
MR. DUMALISILE : children in the schools.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , having said all I said yesterday I move that Vote 3 be accepted by this House.
Of the teachers in
I am speaking of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You said the money has not all been used . MR. DUMALISILE : I am coming to that, if you would listen properly. Further, married women have been employed . The most unfortunate part about these women is the fact that during December last year they were paid up to the 6th December. Another point I wish to mention is that circulars were issued to the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I again second. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to comment on the hon. the Minister of Education's policy speech. To my memory I think it was in 1964 , when this
149.
teachers to the effect that they must never leave school during the school hours , and any teacher found loitering ( I will put it that way) in town will have part of his salary , about R4 a day, deducted . I say that with experience because in many cases teachers have had their salaries reduced at the rate of R4 a day. The question I want to submit to the hon. Minister is : How much per day does a teacher earn? If a man receives R80 a month and an amount of R4 is deducted per day, it means he would have to earn R120 a month because there are 30 days in a month. (Interjections ) Further, we come to the appointment of teachers. There are bodies such as regional authorities , and committees which are appointed to deal with educational matters and these bodies are supposed to be consulted before any appointment is made. To put it more directly, the regional authority is supposed to recommend to the Department of Education any appointment that is to be made , and the regional authority is further required to appeal to the circuit inspectors for any requirements of that school , but our experience has shown that these circuit inspectors and the are overlooked by the regional authorities department. We do not regard that as proper administration because our knowledge is that all the applicants for a position in the schools travel to Umtata, which is not a proper way of arranging things . Furthermore , we have what we call educational planners . It is also to be understood that these men are not doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing. The educational planners are supposed to be planning for anything that is required in the Transkei Educathe allocation of grants to tion Department schools, school buildings and so on - and these men to my mind would be supposed to travel even outside the Transkei studying the modern ways of conducting education.
the hon. the Minister of Education. In the Cape Education administration the Minister of Education was not even known personally. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Provincial Administration .
It was under the
MR. DUMALISILE : Even the Superintendent of Education was not known personally. All that was known was the correspondence which came from the Secretary for Education. THE CHIEF MINISTER: vince ?
In the Cape Pro-
MR. DUMALISILE: Yes . THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , it was under the Cape Provincial Administration , to the Government. MR. DUMALISILE: I am talking about the administration of education under the Cape Provincial Administration. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You say the Secretary for Education handled these matters . That is wrong . MR. DUMALISILE : To my knowledge whoever was employed in the Education Department, a letter came direct from the Secretary for Education. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are wrong you are mixing up provincial education with Bantu education.
-
MR. DUMALISILE : Did I not say that this Assembly moved that education be conducted on the same lines as Cape Provincial education? THE CHIEF MINISTER : And that is under the Cape Provincial Administration , not the Secretary for Education.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would request that we waive the rule as regards time in order that the hon. member should be in a position to give a really constructive reply to the Minister's address , as he has taken the place of the Leader of the Opposition. In other words , I propose that we waive the rule in so far as the hon. member for Willowvale is concerned.
MR. DUMALISILE :
Have it your way .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : because you are blundering .
I am helping you
MR . DUMALISILE : This confusion which takes place between the Minister of Education and the people who are seeking employment is bringing about that confusion in our education system . The hon. the Chief Minister yesterday mentioned that the Ministers are political heads of their departments the people who go about preaching the policy of separate development in the Transkei . There is a further innovation to the effect that as far as the employment of teachers is concerned the whole matter will rest in the hands of the Minister of Education.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. MR. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. the Chief Minister . I was just saying that the education planners should be given the opportunity to travel even outside the boundaries of the Transkei to observe the very latest methods in education . As regards the funds for employing teachers in these schools , the education planners should communicate and discuss these matters with the school inspectors in each circuit to make certain that the returns sent by the principals of the schools in regard to extra employment of teachers are factual. It is on that account that I maintain that as far as the employment of teachers is concerned , this is out of order whilst it is still in the hands of
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Minister must approve the appointment. MR. DUMALISILE : To my interpretation the approval of the Minister of Education does not mean the appointment of teachers . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
150.
Act No. 48 of 1963
The circuit inspector of the Transkei is receiving less than the assistant inspector in the Ciskei.
says that all servants will be appointed by the Government. MR. DUMALISILE: Imaintain that the Secretary for Education and the field staff and anybody attached to the administration are the people who know perfectly well what the requirements of a school are. This system , however, good as it is , has really caused some disturbances . I remember in the Gcaleka region where a circuit inspector was called to a meeting where an appointment of a teacher was to be considered. One irresponsible member ofthe regional authority stood up against the circuit inspector. These are his words : "I don't care for a DP; I am a TNIP. " Remember, the circuit inspector is non-political . He is merely there to advise what the requirements of the school are. However, it was most fortunate because there were some reasonable members who called upon him to sit down because he was talking nonsense. Coming to the transfer of teachers , it would really appear that too many cooks spoil the broth, and we find people who are not even supposed to figure in education but who are really members or secretaries of the TNIP organisation writing letters to the regional authority to the effect that a certain teacher must be transferred because this teacher happened to be not on good terms with the headman of that school , and that headman while at a congress of the TNIP said if that teacher was not transferred he would leave the TNIP and join the DP with all his people. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Give us the figures . MR. DUMALISILE : I invite anyone who desires them to see me outside . THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, you are speaking wildly. We say you are not telling the truth. MR. DUMALISILE :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Give us the figures .
Prove it then.
MR. DUMALISILE : In spite of the fact that they have been promoted to the rank of circuit inspectors they are not receiving the salary that was earned by a European circuit inspector who was there before. What is the reason? (Interjections ) This man was employed by Bantu Education and was doing the same work. The acceptance of separate development has meant lower salaries for the African. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you comparing the White scales of the Republic with the Transkei? You are out of order. MR. DUMALISILE : You are the Government. Now, let me come to what struck me in the papers where it was stated that a European child and a Coloured child are to receive free school books , but that is not the case in the Transkei. It is only the Xhosa reader and the Afrikaans and English, and this happens with people who have no means whatsoever. There is also a point in connection with reference books which are bought here in Umtata in the bookstores. Their price is astonishingly high. Why doesn't this Government subsidize books if they cannot give them free? One surprising factor about this is that the author is also recommending his book to be used in the schools. So, Mr. Madikizela , are you satisfied? Do you want further quotation? Now, before I go on to the next point I want to tackle , I see here many notes about a European who is doing Afrikaans throughout the Transkei . This European is a circuit inspector and he has his own circuit, but why is he not taken as an Afrikaans specialist? Who is doing his work in the circuit while he is away? I am also struck with another point where some few circuit inspectors have left the profession and have been elected as members of the Legislative Assembly.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Remember you swore to tell the truth and nothing but the truth. MR . DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is also another aspect in this and while I do not put the blame on the clerks of the department I think they have taken a step too much. It is not very rare to find a clerk in the department telephoning a circuit inspector and instructing him on what he must do. I think the status of the circuit inspector must be observed. MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA: Who should 'phone the circuit inspector? MR. DUMALISILE : One wonders whether here in the Transkei Bantu education has not crept in, because if it has not then I submit our Department of Education is inferior to that of the Republic. The former Minister of Agriculture last year wanted me to give quotations when I submitted the scales of inspectors in the Ciskei and those in the Transkei. If he still wishes to get those figures immediately we adjourn he must meet me outside the House and I shall give them to him. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are interested.
I am telling the truth.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : They have retired. MR. DUMALISILE : I think this House will agree with me when I say that in some of these circuits there have been no appointments up to now. That is why I say the hon. the Minister of Education must not boast about the increase of money because this is money which has been voted in this House to be paid to these officers , and while the officers are not there they are doing nothing, and next year he will come and boast that he has an increase. Let us not save
Give them to us.
MR. DUMALISILE : There was a boast that Africans had been promoted to the post of circuit inspector. That we see, but let us come to the remuneration they receive. I will still compare these figures with those ofthe Republic. 151.
between the department and the bodies responsible which are supposed to be the proper channels of education. I submit that if he could only leave the matter of administration to the Secretary and the bodies below him , up to the field staff, the whole thing will be smooth and there will be less criticism of his department. We also appreciate in this policy speech that There are all these things are very slow. people who could have sent their children to these technical schools outside the Transkei but because of separate development the prospects of those people are restricted . If they could only leave out separate development and come to our side of multi-racialism we could send more children to Wits University for technical training. The three students who are already there will not serve the Transkei sufficiently and it is quite true we require these services. As I said, I would allocate good marks for grammar in his policy speech and that he would definitely have passed , but we expected more, Sir.
money at the expense of the people. Let us not regard this money as simply an increase. One other thing is that we used at one time to have specialists in music and gardening. One wonders why this department has not introduced that system here in the Transkei. These are some of the things we want to blame the Department of Education for as not working properly. Let us all agree that the whole affair centres round the child in the school. I have never known a house being started from the roof. As has already been said about the technical college in Umtata , I have mentioned that the standard of education we have here is more or less inferior to that of the standard in the Republic. If they are parallel in status , why was the former Secretary for Education here , Mr. Boshoff, said to be promoted when he became Under- secretary in the Republic? I wish the hon. the Minister of Education, who seems to be dreaming, would wake up from his dreams to the fact that he is now the Under- secretary. I don't think the Secretary of State in America is below the Under - secretary of State. (Laughter) I think at this point I must put it to the hon. Minister that in order to avoid these criticisms he must form an advisory council in the Transkei for education. We have nine regions in the Transkei. He can, if he feels like it, have two men from each region and those would be the men to save him from the splashes. This provision obtains in the Republic and we are part of the Republic. Now, the last point: I have a cutting here, " Higher Wages for African Teachers" . That is in the Ciskei and this was stated in the Cape Town parliament, that the African teachers would receive a rise of ten per cent in April and fifteen per cent in 1971 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : 1971 .
MR. C.K. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I hope you will give me the same indulgence as you allowed the last speaker, because I am going to concentrate on this man. Now, Mr. Chairman, one would have expected a finer atmosphere than that from the Deputy Leader. It is a known fact that a drowning man will cling to a straw or even to platanna , which will only accelerate his doom. (Laughter) Now, Sir, before I go on with these remarks I just wish to pay tribute to the hon. the Minister of Education for his very, very fine policy statement. Since I have been a member of this House for the last five years he has never produced such a fine speech. In fact, his portfolio used to be earmarked for the most vicious and malicious attack from the Opposition and I think that has helped him to mould a better policy than previously. Like all people , our people are inclined to be conservative and so one views with great apprehension the wide venture he has recently introduced into his department. I refer now to the new approach in the methods and I wonder what the deputy Deputy Leader means when he says we have begun to build a house from the roof, when the chief fault of the Opposition is to disregard planning. This technical school which naturally predominates in this Vote , nobody could say was built from the roof because it was planned, if I remember well, from the very first budget of 1964 and I remember the then Secretary and I wish the department will cause a letter to be written to him to say that his dream has been realised. I refer to Mr. van Rooyen and I don't think anybody will grudge that privilege , because .it does not detract from the present administration naturally, Sir , for anybody who succeeds another to work even better than his predecessor. I now refer to the Secretary of the Department : If he should see this come to fruition it is as much to his credit as to that of Mr. van Rooyen, for a dwarf standing on the shoulders of a giant commands a wider horizon than the giant. (Laughter) I also appreciate very much the increase that is contemplated in the staffing of head office , for there has been an excuse given about the slow tempo in
Five per cent in
MR. DUMALISILE : Thank you. Our Minister of Education is quiet about his teachers in the Transkei. Now, I come to another little cutting : "We don't know the reason for the closing down of the school in Qumbu district at Upper Tyira. " We have been worried about our children. I wonder if the hon. Minister knows about the closing down of that school ? If yes , what action has he taken? And if not, why not? The information is that there is a stubborn principal there who has been disqualified from all over the show. Now he disqualifies the children in school. He disregards the committee and the regional authority. Something must be done because those children are suffering now. It is our request to the hon. the Minister of Education. We don't want him to be likened to a plot of land which is overgrown with weeds which cannot be eradicated , and in despair the women decide to cut the weeds with their scythes . If a man finds that a cultivator cannot do the work he decides to plough the land over , but you will realise that whatever mealie stalks are there they will not bear any fruit. Anyway, the information is that when the allocation of portfolios was contemplated he was earmarked for Justice , but his handkerchief was wet with tears about it. We appeal to him to rehabilitate these matters. There must be conformity 152 .
do this work gratis and they are often frustrated when they see that their recommendations are so often ignored. I am not advocating a point that their word should be final, but there seems to be a misunderstanding as to consultation I hope, Sir, you will and recommendation. clarify this position, particularly to the regional You know better than I, because authorities. these complaints have been sent to you and these regional authorities have often complained that their recommendations have not been appreciated. I can leave it to you, Sir, because I know you are doing the best for the people. Now, the last speaker spoke about teachers loitering in the streets of the villages and one would like to know what steps he has taken to correct those teachers and, if he has taken any steps, what are the results. How can he expect Umtata to look after those teachers without sending a circular to guide them? He says they are fined a minimum of R4 and he asks whether that is compatible with their salaries, but why does he compare that with what the teacher has because the teacher has broken a regulation? Supposing this was made so small that the teacher could not feel the pinch, what would happen? So the higher the amount, - in fact, I would recommend R6 so that the others could take a lesson. Coming to the last point, because I see the Chairman is already wielding his hammer, there seems to be some misunderstanding too about the employment of married women teachers. He does not know that these married women teachers were employed on a temporary basis during a state of what we could call emergency, because there was such a shortage of teachers that there were no substitutes , and if you employ a persontemporarily you don't have to give him three months ' notice for he or she only works until a suitable substitute can be found, and where it is found that the woman who is employed there has no substitute , she continues her service. If the deputy Deputy Leader thinks of any widow in whom he is interested (Laughter) then the department could consider her point. As far as the transfer of teachers is concerned I don't see why he should pin that to the hon. Minister , because the Minister is quite aloof, as he says, from that sort of thing and the administration is trustworthy enough to know where to send its employees.
the work of employing teachers and particularly in the payment of their salaries . We hope, Sir, that you will make it possible to keep up with the times and with your increased staff make it possible for our teachers to get their emoluments sooner than in the past. Mention has been made of certain opportunities , including bursaries, over and above those issued by the regional authorities. That is much to your credit, Sir. It shows that education in the Transkei will be inferior to none. The last speaker said that teachers and circuit inspectors in the Ciskei I will have better conditions than those in the Transkei. It is very difficult to see why he remained here until he was expelled from school , because he should have taken advantage of crossing over to the Ciskei and enjoying better emoluments . He erroneously compares the salaries of our circuit inspectors with those of European inspectors elsewhere , which is highly misleading. He forgets that the White circuit inspectors are not servants of this Government. As you know, they are seconded officials from the Republic and there will be no point in reducing their salaries to the status of our circuit inspectors. As far as I know there is no complaint in so far as our circuit inspectors are concerned, and if there were of course they would not take them to him. They are servants of the Government and they have their own Education Department. One is happy to note the stress you are laying on this new field of education. I refer now to the products that will accrue from the technical and vocational As I have said, it is very training schools. difficult for a people to leave their groove, which eventually becomes their grave, and venture into the wilds. Our training schools have produced men like the deputy Deputy Leader because that was the only opening available in his time and now that these courses are being opened at the vocational and technical schools which are inferior to none, even those in Europe, in America, in Russia, in Hong Kong, I think the House would do well (Laughter) to appreciate and encourage the department. I again commend the hon. Minister for his diligence in his work, and yet the last speaker wants to know if he knows of the closing of a school in Qumbu, but according to his version of the duties of the Minister does he expect him to know what happens to a miserable little school that has not qualified for a further grant? He must be consistent. He says the hon. Minister must hold himself aloof because he is such a big man and on the other hand he says he should stoop down to the chickens like that eagle of Dr. Aggrey's. Coming to the regional authorities, I am not going to say much but I think there is some misunderstanding in regard to policy between the regional authorities and the I hope the department will district clerks . take note of this because we do not know what our functions are as school committees and We do not know who is regional authorities. more important to the consultant the regional authority, the school committee or the chief and, of course , we know that your policy is still in the melting pot but if there is a new circular, Sir, I think you should send it so that the regional authorities and committees should also be acquainted with it, particularly as they
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to speak on certain points arising from the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. He mentioned the rate at which steps are being taken to administer education today. It is true that the African people show a keener desire for education today than they have ever shown before and this is a very encouraging feature to all who desire the progress of a people. He also referred to the tendency of people to look for white-collar jobs. While that was the case in the past, I would like to point out that today it is different as you will note that quite a number of African people today are getting employment in garages, in agriculture and in other activities of a similar kind. As soon as the vocational school at Lusikisiki has been completed you will find there will be a great change in the attitude of the
153.
Further , their toilet facilities are often not in Is there not some way very good condition. by which this state of affairs can be looked into and measures taken to improve conditions? In your address you mentioned you had boarding departments at Sigcau and Teko College of Agriculture . We appreciate this and we wish the same measures could be undertaken for other schools.
people. In the Education Vote I note as regards posts that there were eight posts and ten posts still held by loaned officials of the Republic , especially as regards principalships in the schools . We would like the hon. Minister to give us an explanation as to the reasons why so many of these posts of vice -principal are given to Europeans . There is another fact which worries the people very much as regards employment of teachers in secondary and primary school posts. We would like the hon. the Minister of Education to give a very clear statement as regards the advertising of posts in primary and secondary schools , and also details of the appointment of teachers to these posts for there is evidently a misunderstanding Would he also clarify as to the procedure . the relationship between a district clerk and a regional authority clerk? It very often happens that one is not clear as to which of these has the authority . Between the district clerk and the regional clerk we don't know which of them has the right to appoint or send a teacher to fill a post. These are matters which confuse us in the administration of education. I note also that the tribal authority has a finger somewhere in the pie . We would also like their position to be clarified. It often happens that a school committee finds a teacher appointed to a post without their knowledge at all . We would like a full explanation given on these points. I will refer briefly now to another point. We have employees such as boardingmasters or matrons in the school hostels. These people work hard in carrying out their duties throughout the 24 hours of the day. There is no weekend for them, neither Saturday nor Sunday, and they are in charge of children who can be very troublesome . Today we note that many of the school - children and boarders want to administer their own school lives. Could the department not take certain measures to provide for the safety of such employees as matrons and boarding-masters in these schools ?
The debate was adjourned. The
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 3, Education , was resumed. MR. C. DABULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand to support the policy speech read yesterday afternoon by the hon. the Minister I am sure each and everyone of Education. present in this House will agree when I congratulate him on his splendid policy speech. The Department of Education is one of the most important departments . Education is the backbone of a nation. If you please , Sir, I will just make a few requests . Although this is a matter for the Department of Roads and Works I would, however, make a request now that in the appropriation of funds the funds should be equally divided among the regions. My second request, Sir, is that the people have asked us to see to it that in the training schools, although there is no apparatus for training in domestic science , the girls should be taught domestic science instead of agriculture because , after all , after completion of their course they have nothing to do with castration of bulls. My third request is in connection with the statement made by the hon. Minister in regard to bursaries for 50 students , for which selection will be made from various centres where the students have completed J.C. standard. We request the hon. Minister to take steps to see that priority is given to children of poor parents. It may be that there are a hundred deserving cases but we request the Government to consider the applications of children born of poor parents . My last request is in connection with the following matter : I would suggest that negotiations are carried out between the Transkei Government and the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions . If a teacher dies one year after superannuation the widow should enjoy the benefit of the husband's contributions . This is a painful matter. Let us take the case of a teacher recently who was due to go on pension in June. He has passed away and his widow will receive nothing. It is in this connection that the Transkei Government should communicate with the Republican Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. Now if you look at the estimates of six of these departments you will notice that the highest figure is for the Department of Education, which is R6,627,000 . Of this figure R5,914,000 is spent on slaries , wages and allowances of teachers . All the items from A to L of the Vote are well explained in this department. As you know, every year there is a vast increase on the side of schools. Many new pri-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Like what, for instance ? MR. JAFTA: There have been disturbances in the schools - breaking of windows and burning of houses O and their very lives are in danger sometimes . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What sort of protection does the hon. member have in mind? MR. JAFTA: It is the department who should know what can be done for the safety of these employees. OPPOSITION MEMBER : education council.
Assembly
You could have an
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You can't protect people from trouble -makers with an education council.
MR . JAFTA: There is an opinion that in these boarding- schools the kind of food given to the pupils is not of a very high standard. 154.
mary schools have been established between the years 1965 and 1968. Sixteen new ones in all were established, and six secondary schools were regraded as high schools . That increased the number of teachers from 4,883 to 6,779, and 1,916 new teaching posts were created. This shows that the hon. Minister was correct when he said the annual increase in the schoolgoing population necessitates from time to time an increase in the administrative , clerical and other staff and it has become necessary this year to provide additional posts in this category at an estimated cost of R19,000 . This department is opening a technical college in Umtata and a vocational training school at Lusikisiki . Our children in primary schools and high schools are well equipped . We now see well -built schools being used by our children whereas during our time children used to sit on a mud floor. Mr. Chairman, I was much impressed by the report of the hon. the Minister of Education that a new scheme is being introduced whereby 50 bursaries will be made available annually.
say, R20 per child for book fees every year, irrespective of form. For example , when we were at school books at Form 1 level , in the days of £. s. d. would have been £7, then £6 at Form 2 level and then perhaps £4. We would like you to look into that matter , Sir. Now, one of the principles of education and , of course , it is the attitude of this Government, is that every child first of all must be taught in its mother tongue . I regret I have to localize my argument but it is imperative that I do so. I wish to refer to children of Sotho origin in the Maluti region. These children have a language which they use as a mother tongue · that is , South Sotho or Shoeshoe , and these children are expected to be taught that language in school . What is the position today? These children are taught a language that belongs to the Northern Sothos and it is not even pure as such. In other words, they use Southern Sotho at home and they use Northern Sotho in school. It is as absurd as perhaps taking a Xhosa child here in Umtata and teaching it in Zulu or Tshangaan, simply because it is a Nguni language . If you go into history you will remember that after the English people came some time after the Dutch had arrived, they eclipsed them in so far as the language was concerned and it was not until the Dutch people got together and introduced what is today known as Afrikaans which got them united and they became the strong people they are today , and that is how we can build a nation. Everyone has to have a language of his own. These people are next-door to Lesotho - in fact, that is where they come from and it cannot be denied that Lesotho has the sym-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am wondering if we have not had enough discussion on this Vote so that we can proceed with the amendments , because they also concern this Vote . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, hon. members, I think we can allow them some little time to air their views because this is the only opportunity the Opposition gets in order to point out certain things to the departments .
pathies of the Republican Government. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Very well . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Aren't you anticipating your own motion?
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. H.H. ZIBI: members , I wish to add my contribution towards I am worried about the position the debate . in the secondary and high schools in so far as the teaching staff is concerned . I don't for a minute believe that the schools are adequately You may not put the blame on the manned . department, but it is lack of manpower. Now , I want to suggest - supposing the teachers who are on the filed staff as inspectors examining primary work were to be kept in the high and secondary schools ? Of course , I know that everyone wants promotion in life ifthey could be given the salary given to the others , but kept in the Our science graduates are primary section. very few and the few are already in the field staff and we are hoping that one day our high and secondary schools will be equipped adequately with laboratories for science . To produce doctors and other technicians they have to have Now, science from secondary school level. who is going to teach those children science when the teachers are on the field staff? We could, of course , keep graduates to use as inspectors in secondary and high schools but we could have teachers who could examine the primary schools , say, NPH , with J.C. or matric , To pass on, I get to the question of perhaps. books in your department, Sir. Everyone who has been to school does know there are text books and these books can be used, say, from Form 2 level up to J.C. , but what surprises us is that you find there is a block figure of,
MR. ZIBI : I am trying to say that the excuse perhaps is that, but just because Lesotho happens to be independent today is not the point because we in the Republic still nurse Lesotho as we do, and who knows whether Lesotho will not be part of us one day, especially in the South Africa we envisage on this side . We have in this House a direct descendant of the great Moshesh of Lesotho . One would really be keen to hear from him what his ideas are in relation to his own children. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You will hear me when we discuss your motion. MR. ZIBI: We have another member here from Matatiele , the hon . Mr. Sekake Moshesh , and I wonder what he will have to say about this. Unless we want to oblige men such as Dr. Eiselen and others who are behind the language being used in Maluti region today. There is one drawback because when these children pass matric level they have got to go to university. My opinion is that these children are being encouraged to go to Turfloop which is right up in the Transvaal , when there is Fort Hare for all the children of the Transkei , Unless this Government wants to disown them as Transkeians . I wish to say further that there was a decision taken here that education should be entrusted to the hands of the regional 155.
tion has actually made these methods available to inspectors of schools who will in turn pass on this new approach to the classroom teacher. Such a refresher course is in progress at the present moment and nothing but praise flows from those who are attending those courses. We want to comment very favourably on that aspect of development, but if you are going to teach the children that this is bigger than that; this is smaller than that; that is bigger than the other; there are more of these ; there are less of those , you are going to run into the problem of accommodation and therefore with this new approach I think the department should reconsider its planning of classrooms , particularly for the lower standards , so that there is space for these new approaches in the educational methods that are so essential if our
authorities and I believe the hon. the Minister of Education must be satisfied that these people do not merit such a great responsibility. When you think in terms of the composition of these regional authorities you cannot honestly think they merit the responsibility of education. mention that to lay more stress to the issue of appointing an advisory council to look after educational matters . We look around , Sir, and look at your field staff as it is at present. We find that in the same region there is hardly anyone who is a Sotho on your staff. The information I have is that there is only one. My question, Mr. Chairman and hon. members , to the hon. Minister is : Do they not even merit appointment as supervisors in your schools? MR. C. DABULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am surprised at the last speaker's criticism of members ofthe regional authorities . They are quite capable in the positions in which they have been placed by the Government because they are people who advise the Government. Our hon. friends across the floor worried themselves about people who are enjoying their bread and butter from their own Government. The Republican Government has seen that the time has come when the White people should give an opportunity to all the African children in South Africa to show their ability to prove that they are also people with brians to keep and improve their own people . My hon. friends , Why are you afraid to why are you afraid? manage your own affairs according to your own The White people demand no dowry; customs ? customary elopement among the no there is Whites ; there is no customary slaughter for inlaws among the Whites. Are you not proud when you see your attorneys , ministers , magistrates and doctors of your own colour serving your own people? Surely you ought to be very thankful when you get such able and brainy leaders . The hon. Minister in charge and his Cabinet have laid a very strong foundation for this government in the Transkei. Gentlemen across the floor, please come and let us sing one song. Please don't have doubts like the Israelites who could not believe that they had been delivered out of the land of Egypt and brought unto a good land, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. Hon. gentlemen across the floor, (Laughter ) I would like to advise you that you are being led to a policy flowing with milk and honey separate development. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I suppose no one says senile decay has set in in himself. It is only others who will observe the very visible signs , (Laughter) and we have got to be a bit indulgent. I note with appreciation the concern of the Department of Education over the stultifying conservatism which may very well . negative the development of education. The expressed desire to keep in line with modern educational methods and new techniques of teaching is a commendable feature which has been shown in the speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. Often when we get out of the Transkei and visit some ofthe schools outside the Transkei there are visible signs of what they now call the new approach, and I am gratified to note that the Department of Educa-
children are going to learn quickly and intelliYou see, on the blackboard you can gently. write "2 + 2 = 4 " and you may have 60 toddlers in a classroom, but if you are going to give each of these toddlers two stones and two stones , two apples and two apples , two peaches and two peaches , hoping that they do not eat them ( Laughter) you will need more space , and I recommend to the department that in the planning of the new primary schools bigger classrooms should be provided. One of the handicapping factors in the efficiency of the teacher in the classroom is the inadequacy of the classroom space. I believe we need to give more space per pupil in the classroom to enable the teacher to go round on supervisory work and give individual attention with a greater deal of enthusiasm than would otherwise be the case if the students are crowded. I was a bit worried in reading the annual report of the Public Service Commission to note an observation by the Commission that there is a cry for suitably qualified personnel to take over, or to fill new posts created in the administration generally, and I take it that the Department of Education has that problem also. The comment there is that if we cannot have a Transkei citizen adequately qualified to take up a post, then it means that that post either remains vacant or is not created at all. I hope the Department of Education will not allow itself to be inhibited in its development by overinsistence on having a Transkei citizen when he is not qualified and unable to fill the post at a time when a non- Transkeian is fully qualified and available to fill a position. I have always said in this House that I do not want, and this side of the House does not want, to make educa· tion a political issue and I feel that the Department of Education should not limit its development just because it does not want to employ a non- Transkeian. I am advised that a high official has joined your department, Sir , and he is an Are we not authority on the new approach. grateful for the infusion of new life into the Department of Education? Shall we not invite more of his calibre and distinction to come into the department so that we get a quick advancement of the pupil in the Transkei , a revision of our methods of teaching ? I commend this wider view to the hon. the Minister of Education. Then again, I am concerned over the fact that you have , as a department, released some of your officers to go overseas , presumably to learn more about education generally. I want 156.
MR . GUZANA: Financial and recent happenI want to know if the principal of that ings. school has not appeared before a disciplinary committee of the Department of Education more than once and what its findings were and what the Minister did about those findings . You will notice that I have not attacked you this year as I did last year. My reasoning is that we must give the hon. the Minister of Education an opportunity to put right what we said was wrong and this cannot be done in one year. We might have to call you to account next year, and I think it is just as well and only fair to ring the bell now. (Laughter) May I say through you, Sir, that this side of the House wishes to express
to ask to what extent have those left behind benefitted from the experience of those who have gone overseas? Have they held lectures , for instance , for co- inspectors or supervisors of schools or principals of schools in order to make their knowledge available to others who are directly in touch with the pupil in the classroom ? I believe that the teacher or the inspector or the man who goes overseas under the auspices of this department is not doing it for his own benefit but for the benefit of our staff and of the pupils , and there must be some positive instruction given to those who have not had that opportunity by those who have had it, otherwise the scheme serves the selfish interest of the one individual who has had that opportunity to go overseas. The venerable , pensioned teacher member of this House indicated that there has been an increase in the amount of money appro-
its appreciation of services of your former Secretary, Mr. Boshoff, and to congratulate the new appointee to his post. He is what we might describe as a son of the soil and we can see these movements , these new approaches , this revitalization of the department as a credit to his dedicated application in his new administrative post . If we were to attack you , Sir , we would be attacking him and yet he is not to blame for he has just taken over in his new post. We wish him well in that post. Let me assist the hon. retired member in one direction. He is worried over the fact that (Laughter) he might die and leave his wife without earnings . May I suggest that your department consider a scheme whereby a teacher who is contributing towards the pension will at the same time contribute towards a widows ' pension fund so that the widows of teachers may draw some money after the deaths of their old men. I hope you
priated for this department. We do not think this is adequate , for on previous occasions we have submitted that if there are any departments which should get the lion's share out of the funds of this State it should be the Department of Education and the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . You see, education is getting about R6½ million out of a budget of R23 million. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The trouble is that most of the money that is used for buildings is in the Department of Roads and Works. MR. GUZANA : I accept that explanation , so that it would shoot up the appropriation on education to a considerable amount? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION :
will welcome that, hon. member from Mount The , Sir , to look at the Frere. (Laughter) Transkei Public Service Commission Report for I am simply shocked to find 1968 , page 14. that a supervisor of education was found guilty of contempt of court, and that another refused to produce his reference book and give his address , and these people got away with just a I think that is really condoning reprimand. conduct of a very high official - conduct which
Yes.
MR. GUZANA : I accept that. Sir, I think it would be dangerous if you were to decide that the criterion for awarding bursaries should be the poverty or otherwise of the parent or guardian of the child. I think merit should be the deciding factor. We may be most sympathetic towards the child of the parent who is poor, but who we find has not the ability to make proper use of such a bursary. For academic reasons , therefore , I suggest that merit should be the determining factor and since there are vocational and technical schools being opened I think the hon. member should have asked that the children attending those schools should also receive bursaries . May I speak particularly about one school now. I refer to the Nyanga High School. The report given to me is that the rebuilt dining-hall is used as a dormitory and the pupils are having their meals outside in the open. I am informed, Sir , that there have been certain irregularities in connection with the finances of this school. I have been informed that the entrance fee has been raised to R5 . I am told that some of the teachers have been drunk in the classroom at Nyanda Secondary School and have made exhibitions of themselves in the presence of the children at that school. I want to ask if any commission of inquiry has ever been appointed in connection with that school.
is altogether reprehensible . Now, you have had two clerks who have been guilty of misconduct and drunkenness and fined R5. I have known cases of drunkenness where people have been fined R30 and these are the people who meet the public , who meet the teachers who come to your department, and the Public Service Commission comments adversely on the increase in the drunkenness of officers of the Government. I refer you to page 15 , paragraph 70. One cannot condemn this type of misconduct too strongly in people who are associated with the Department of Education , Lastly, I am pleased to note that there is an increase in the appropriation for the putting up of hostels which will be attached to day secondary schools . I would like this to be pursued vigorously as these pupils who attend day secondary schools are no longer drawn from the local area but come from elsewhere and are faced with the problem ofaccommodation. Many a time six, seven or eight girls are given a rondavel to occupy and there is no chaperone to look after them, and the position is altogether untenable and most undesirable . That is why I comment favourably on the increased appropriation for that item and would like that to be something before your eyes , as it were . If it
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In connection with recent happenings or in connection with financial affairs ?
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were a ball , I would say: Keep your eye on that ball . Thank you , Mr. Chairman , for your indulgence.
MR. REVE : I will request the Government to see that more is done for this region than Idutywa only .
MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in associating myself with the beautiful policy speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of Education, I feel I must touch on a few points which I think are of importance . The hon.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , shall we now proceed with the amendments ? I will call upon the hon. Mr. Kutu to move his amendment.
Minister has made encouraging remarks about advances in the rapidly changing approach to education. Now he remarks on the new approach to teaching, especially in Afrikaans , and the refresher courses available to teachers. We should be proud of his achievements , which did not figure before the insitutition of this Government. We have been told of vocational and technical schools , which things did not occur during our scholastic days. It annoys me very much when I hear a man giving destructive , rather than constructive criticism. We know that today people have different views in regard to education. In the old days they did not have any knowledge of all these new types of education which have been mentioned. The bursaries which have been awarded to worthy scholars, or which are contemplated to be given for further educational attainments , are worth our sincere appreciation. Scientific , technological and industrial progress are spheres which as a nation we should aim to achieve . Why should we always march behind other races ? Have we any right to believe that we should always be subordinate to other races ? May I utter my humble and sincere appeal to the hon. members of the Opposition : Hon. gentlemen, please don't stand in the way of progress .
Mr. Chairman, if I may MR. GUZANA : interpose, the purpose of these amendments is to enable the Opposition and members of the Government to review all the work and the financial policy of a department and, if I am correct, whenever an amendment is put in on the Minister's salary his whole financial policy is automatically under review so that we can canvass any sub-head or item or sub-item under that Vote. The amendment standing in the name of the hon. Mr. Kutu specifies the item and sub-item, whereas the amendment by the hon. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa amends the Minister's salary which, I think, is the greater amendment as it is an umbrella to take in all amendments. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Can that one be carried on with? He has been suspended. MR. GUZANA : We can have someone to move it for him , Sir , and I was wondering if we could not adopt that line. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In other words, you mean the hon. member withdrawing his amendment and then we deal with the other amendment?
MR. GUZANA: Who is standing in the way of progress?
MR. GUZANA : Yes . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is correct. Mr. Chairman, I move that you now report progress .
MR. REVE : Let our people advance as they should. Although I have heard some good criticism from some of the members of the Opposition, there are still some who seem to split hairs . Those members don't seem to realise the amount of work with which the Ministers have to cope when they have got to consider what must be done for each child in the country. When we deal with the education of a child we must remember that we are preparing leaders for tomorrow . We must bear in mind that our children must step up to a higher level than we are on so that if we can be constructive in our criticism we can achieve that purpose . Much has been said, Mr. Chairman, on this subject. In conclusion I would ask the House to turn to page 28 of the Estimates , Vote 6.J. , and when they look through those items they will find there are regions which have not been given a chance to grow. To give an example , I will just mention the Gcaleka region.
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA : I second. Agreed to.
House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to report progress and crave leave to sit in committee again. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 12th May, 1969.
MONDAY, 12th MAY, 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
MR. GUZANA: There is Idutywa there - that is Gcaleka region.
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL MITTEE OF SUPPLY
MR . REVE : I look through those regions and find there are hardly any schools to be built in that region. (Interjections ) Idutywa is not the only district in the region. MR. GUZANA : there it is .
: COM-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House converts itself into committee of supply.
You spoke about the region THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Isecond. 158.
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to move the amendment by the hon. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa.
Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, we shall now proceed to deal with the amendments in connection with Vote 3, Education.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you not first withdraw your own amendment?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, could I crave your indulgence to make just a short explanation. Mr. Chairman, hon. members, during the course of this very healthy discussion on my Vote, much has been said about the alleged irregularities and omissions in the department, but I do feel that as members are representatives of the people there is some failure in a most important aspect. We have been advised by those who are experienced in parliamentary procedure that the committee stage of a bill, especially a budget bill, together with the departmental Votes, is the time when hon. members are given an opportunity to make requests to the departments if they have any requests to make . That is one of the ways in which the departments can have a cross - section of what the requirements of the people at home are , rather than slinging mud at one another and not getting down to the purpose for which we have been elected. We hear that schools have not been built at such and such a place, this and that has not been done , and we have at times thrown it back at you and said you do not visit the different departments . Now , the committee stage is the time for you to make any representations which you have to make.
MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , I withdraw the amendment standing to my name . The amendment reads :- "That Vote 3, sub-head 1 , in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R3,200; " and his stipend should remain only at R1,000 . (Laughter) The reason for this amendment is because we are not satisfied with the work done by the hon. the Minister of Education, whereas the Department of Education is the most important department, and one which should have no opposition whatsoever as it holds the future of our children. No nation in the world can make any progress unless they have a sound education. If I remember correctly, the hon. Minister said in his policy speech in 1964 that it was one of his aims to build schools , and in the years since he has repeated that statement. In the reserves there have been misunderstandings and quarrels because he went round these areas making promises to the electorate that as he is in charge of this department schools would be erected by the Government. The consequence is that when we want to put up schools the people are unwilling to contribute money, as they say they were promised by the Government that they would have no further need to raise money for the erection of schools . As a result there has been misunderstanding between the school committees and the headmen and people in this matter. It is on that account that we put forward this amendment to the effect that the Minister's salary should be reduced , because he is not able to carry out his duties properly. Because education is so important, we would like the hon. Minister to consider making it complusory for children between the ages of 6 and 16 to attend school.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shall we carry on then with the amendments , please. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , just before we rose on Friday I indicated that it would be preferable to take the amendment which has a larger or wider scope than amendment (a) , which is limited to a particular item in this Vote. I think we were agreed on that point and now remains a technical point, to regularize our procedure . The technical point involves the fact that the amendment which has a wider embrace stands to the name of a member of this House who has been named and is not in the House . That is the hon. Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa. Now the rules require that if a member is not in this House he should instruct another member in writing to move his amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER :
Are you serious ?
MR. KUTU: We feel that an attitude of slavery is induced if the children are instructed to look after stock when the parents themselves go to beer drinks . (Interjections ) The result is that the cattle will die and the child will not benefit at all. In addition he will not have had Education is an the privileges of education. inheritance that will benefit the children for ever, rather than that a child should look after twenty head of cattle when he has not even one cow that belongs to him . (Interjections (Interjections)) The hon. the Minister of Education should only receive a stipend of R1,000 and the R3,200 by which it is reduced should be used to erect the classrooms that we want put up. We put it to the hon. Minister in 1965 that the habit of sending children back home to collect fees should be discontinued because it places the child as well as the parents in a difficult position. First of all, the child is sometimes compelled to borrow money to enable him to go home and in the process he meets with difficulties .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I looked up that point and could not find it here in the rules and I took advantage of the provision in the rules to the effect that what is not provided here we must have recourse to the rules of the Republican Parliament in Cape Town, and there the provision is to the effect that a member who is instructed by an absent member can move a motion. It does not say anything about instructions in writing. Well, Mr. Chairman, that MR. GUZANA : was a point of order . Whatever my convictions are , I will take the route with lesser difficulties and accept what the hon. the Minister of Education has said.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And if these fees are not paid what should be done ?
159.
MR. KUTU: This makes the child sidestep the views of his parents. We put it to the House that in a case where the fees have not been paid the child should remain at school and word be sent to the parents.
schools cannot be established overnight by the department. In regard tothe erection of schools , there is a difficulty in that we have not sufficient numbers of builders. The hon. Minister mentioned in his policy speech that formerly academic education was given the main consideration, and such matters as technical education were neglected . That has resulted in the fact that we have not enough builders . In connection with the erection of schools I would recommend to the hon. Minister that as the builders have no capital they should be given an advance to carry out these services and to buy materials , etc. The last speaker , who has just left the House , says that the education of children between the ages of 6 and 16 should be compulsory. I do not think he has had any mandate for that from his constituents , but I think he only wants to place the hon. Minister in a difficult position. No African can enjoy compulsory education until rehabilitation measures have been effected. I am not taking into account people who live in urban areas and who are not affected by the possession of livestock. If you travel along the Umtata- Engcobo road you will notice herds of cattle on the mealie lands which are looked after by herdboys . Compulsory education is such that matters might even end up in the law courts , should anyone disregard the regulations . I believe the hon. member intends that when things find their way to the law courts the Minister of Education will be blamed by the parents of the children. I think there is much to be said for and against complaints in regard to the expulsion of children over fees. Most of the strikes in these missionary institutions result from poor food, and that is the result of pupils failing to pay school fees which makes it possible only to purcahse low-grade foodstuffs . The duty of the hon. members is to educate the people to see that these fees are paid in advance or in good time , so that the services can be provided. To come to the speaker's last point, that the hon. the Minister of Education used official transport to the places he visited , I think he was merely exhausting his time in the House , because he knows very well that the Minister uses his private transport. Mr. Chairman, I say that the Minister's salary should remain as it is.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And continue to eat the food of other children? MR. KUTU : The hon. Minister has used much of the funds accruing from the taxes paid by the people of the Transkei in a very unsatisfactory manner, when he moved around the country dissuading the people from electing the representatives they wanted to elect to this Assembly. I want to say without fear of contradiction that he went through the whole of Engcobo area and visited over 64 headmen in that area. He lived in the area of Emjanyana where he interfered with the general run of things, for in the Emjanyana Hospital we have a number of married nurses. (Laughter) I will not say what he had gone for in our area , nor will I say that whatever happened was due to his presence.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: claim damages from you. (Laughter)
I will
MR. KUTU: ....but the divorce cases that followed his visit to that area have made us feel a little suspicious . (Laughter) The hon. the Minister of Education is reprehensible . In his speech in this House he states that people in the Government service should not take part in political matters and he stipulated distinctly that teachers should not take an active part in politics , but he , the hon. Minister that he is , goes around taking up a political attitude towards the teachers which is very unpleasant, and should a teacher support the TNIP which is the Government side and his side , it brings about an unpleasant attitude in our institutions . The teachers also instil that attitude into the children at the The children instilled with such an colleges . attitude rise in disturbances and the breaking down of school buildings . MR. W.C. SINGATA: second the amendment.
Mr.
Chairman, I
MR. R. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to say that the Vote in respect of the Minister's salary should stand as it is. I regard the moving of this amendment as a sign of their failure to discuss it with their leader, because anybody listening to the speech of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he made recommendations in regard tothe department would never dare move such an amendment. It is very strange that any responsible person should lead a team of platannas . The hon. the Minister of Education has indisputably carried out his duties properly. The Department of Education has very heavy duties and its functions are diverse . It is a department which, without recommendations from other people , is difficult to maintain . Among other things which the last speaker mentioned as showing the failure of the hon. Minister was his failure to erect school buildings , forgetting as he does that the Transkei is made up of 26 districts and it has innumerable schools . Those
MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I join the debate , as the hon. Minister has told us to make requests I will first make this request, so I would like you to give me a little more time in order to speak in the debate . (Laughter) On page 2 of his policy speech the hon. Minister says : "...the Transkei is suffering from the effects of conservatism and tradition in regard to education. " This statement is contradicted by a Press report in the Daily Dispatch on Saturday on a statement by Mr. Nixon in America where people are free to seek education anywhere without the difficulties of separate development. I will mention a few points from this report: " An acceptance by the Nixon administration of South Africa's sovereign right to shape its own internal policies free of external pressure or persuasion.... Let it be remembered that Richard Nixon as VicePresident to the late General Eisenhower , played a leading part in enforcing schools desegregation 160 .
!
Government should meet their transport expenses. I would also like to mention a case of a teacher being ill and the children have no- one to teach them during the teacher's absence . Now I would like to come nearer home to the hon. Minister. The Minister is the head of the department and the work of employing teachers is entrusted to the lower officials of that department. Such junior officials are not experienced in the profession and what should be done is to appoint an experienced individual to supervise the junior members in your departIt is for that reason that there are so ment. may irregularities , because there is lack of supervision over the appointment of these teachers by the junior officials . Another matter I wish to mention is salaries , but I am not sure if that is under your department or not. Let me give an example of an official on the R600 to R900 grade and he is promoted to the first grade rate of salary . What happens is that the official remains on the R900 notch until January of the following year before he gets an increase , whereas during the TTA days the scales did not overlap but each employee got a rise according to the time he had served .
in the South. " (Interjections) MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Go to America. This is the Transkei. MR. SINGATA: To continue : "Nothing he has done in the first hundred days of his administration suggests he has retreated in any way from his standards of the past. " Thirdly: "Today the Nixon administration supports selfdetermination for the countries of Africa , majority rule and human equality. But until a South African Government scraps bad laws and legislates for individual dignity, freedom and opportunity, no Western power will fall over backwards to be friendly, and South Africa will remain dangerously isolated in a troubled world . " Mr. Chairman, I would like to mention that the son of Mr. Mafeje has been invited to Holland and Geneva in an effort to avoid this separate development as is experienced in this country, which does not allow of multiricialism. Mafeje's father and I were colleagues at school and in that particular school a teacher was invited from overseas to come and give instruction in that school in South Africa. It is on that account that I stand to contradict the allegation that our people are kept back by their tribalistic policy , whereas it is policy of separate development which is responsible. Education is not only book learning, but it should enable people to travel all over the world. (Interjections) In Swaziland Dr. Nxumalo and his colleagues pick and choose people who are best qualified to teach. He is the Minister of External Affairs in Swaziland. I would like you
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is gratifying to find that the note sounded at the beginning of this debate has been maintained . In addition to certain aspects , the following was said - that the approach would remain non-political and also that as much as possible would be done to see to the future and upliftment of the Transkeian child . That is why, therefore , I say it is gratifying to note that that spirit has been maintained with, of course , a few exceptions of punctuation marks just to make the debate go better . At the outset I would like to point out a few things , Mr. Chairman , for the benefit of this House . Let it be known that a reference to people like Mafeje is a thing that would make somebody's heart pain because it can only be made by someone who does not know what he is talking about. For your information, there has been a post advertised at the University College of Fort Hare and Mafeje is a man qualified to take that particular post , and he did not apply. He did not apply in spite of the fact that he was advised to apply. He is one of the sixteen fellows who were qualified to take posts either at Fort Hare , Ngonya or Turfloop, and they did not apply in spite of the fact that they were advised to apply. Let me go further to say that it is something I was which might pain someone's heart.
to read carefully the extract I have just read out, that in America "apartheid" is not favoured by the people. Now I will come direct to you , the hon. Minister. In the lower primary schools we have readers which are published by certain Instead of the department giving the people. teachers a free choice of what books they would like to use, you will find among the books used such books as " Tandi " , based on the Look-and-Say method. The very beginning of this book has words like "Hla" and " Tla" which merely make the children feel foolish. Because of this parrot- like method of teaching, the child cannot read anything unless he begins at the beginning of the book. Why don't we use such books as the Stewart reader based on the euphonic method ? We would like the teachers to be given an opportunity to browse through such literature and decide which books they would like to use. I will refer now to the new approach to education. Who appoints the teachers who follow this new approach method? It is just any teacher who is taken to do this new approach, irrespective of their ability to pass the information on to the pupils. Why do we not appoint specialists to go to particular areas where all the teachers can go and be taught how to use this new approach? Further, school syllabuses are introduced in, say, March of the year and the teachers are not acquainted with these syllabuses , yet the children have to write examinations on them at the end of the year. We want to mention also the inspectors of schools in the lower primary grades , where such officials are expected to use horse transport. If they use their own cars in cases of difficulty, the
referring to the fact that many of those men who received scholarships paid for with money from the people's taxes died overseas . Just in passing, the question of fees and the payment of fees - that rests squarely on the shoulders of parents and when you send your child to school you are obliged to see that the child remains at school and you will have to pay the fees for that child. So , Mr. Chairman , I believe the hon. member who made reference to this was just making a punctuation mark on a plain- sailing debate . There was reference to the question of the building of schools . Believe me , Mr. Chairman, through God's grace I am speaking from experience . No doubt the Government , in its excitement, in its ambition, did say they 161 .
hon. member for Umtata is asking if we accept Bantu education. I will do that, hon. member. Don't believe anybody, I am repeating it : because no educationist who is worth his salt will take you seriously when you say that the type of education given to Africans in the Republic at present is inferior. No one will take you seriously . I am referring to the syllabi and the aims and objects of that particular education. You say we must not be political and I am telling you that so that you will not appear ridiculous when you talk to someone in Umtata about it because they will laugh at you. In all I am saying I am trying to show if there was ever an occasion when we should put our resources and our brains together it is when we deal with the education of our children, and we could not afford to be left behind, but we might if we waste a lot of time talking about things which have nothing to do with education, as we are doing today .
would do all they could to build schools. There is no doubt about that, but like any other State , nobody could have foreseen how many children would go to school and how the tempo of building could be maintained , and the rest is attendant on that. Anyway, the department had to take a line either that the children are told to remain at home, or the parents are advised to move ahead if they can, and that is exactly what has happened. Mr. Chairman, in the circumstances there was no way out and there could have been no way out for any State anywhere under the present circumstances and conditions. The question of compulsory education ❤ I must admit I am unhappy that the hon. member for Engcobo did say this. It must be the aim of any Government that compulsory education must be given to the people, but there are so many complications and implications in a system like that. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to go into details on that. Perhaps the hon. Minister concerned might. All I should say is that no Government could easily say to the people that education must be compulsory without taking the necessary steps to meet this situation. Let me just say that at least we might have agreed on two out of a hundred things and we have not yet agreed on those things . The first one is that we must agree that we have got our own State , the Transkei. Secondly, we must agree that one of the most important things to be done inthe Transkei is that there must be rehabilitation so that, for the benefit of the hon . member for Engcobo , the children will not be required to go and look after stock.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : overseas?
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall not reply to the remarks of the hon. member who has just sat down, but will leave that to other members to do. I would like to follow the advice of the hon. the Minister of Education to the effect that if we have any requests to make, this is the opportunity to do so. When I have finished making those requests then I may refer to the hon. member who has What worries us in our area just sat down. and I believe in the rest of the Transkei is the reference to secondary schools which has As the hon. member mentioned, been made . no one could foresee what would happen, but I would like to say that so many of our children are held back by lack of accommodation when they apply to post-primary schools . We have made representations to Umtata for a long time now, even through the inspectors of schools . Several applications for the establishment of a secondary school in the vicinity of Mahlungulu administrative area , Middle Tyira and Balasi have been made to the department and those areas have several very large Std . 6 classes . I would like to make it clear that the application for this school is that it should be erected just where the boundaries of these three administrative areas meet. One application was for a school right up in the Botsabelo mountains and another for Ngcele secondary school . I hope the hon. Minister will note these requests . My second point is in connection with the position of female teachers and I would like the hon. Minister to note that the salaries paid to these teachers are the equivalent of those paid to slaves. People who do not live in their own homes , but have to live outside , live under conditions appertaining to slavery. We would like it noted that a female teacher is usually given a hut in a homestead and she is expected to carry out all the domestic work for the family, such as cooking, etc. , and at the end of the period she is expected to pay board and lodging. Such conditions make it very difficult for teachers to prepare their lessons for school. It is on that account that I advocate the raising of the scale of pay for teachers , because after paying for their board and lodging it leaves them very little . I would also like it noted that in some of the schools the principal teacher, especially where there
What do they do
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I want to come to the last point, which is the most important point as far as I am concerned . The rest was just explaining one or two things . Mr. Chairman , I would like on this point to be taken very seriously by every member in this Chamber. References were made to Bantu education and an inference was made too that, in fact, we had nothing to do with Bantu education, thus implying that Bantu education is inferior. We don't want to appear ridiculous to the outside world. For your information, if you have to deal with education, amongst other things you have to find out the particular philosophy of that particular education. (Interjections ) Amongst many other things you have to study and find out the aims and objects of that particular system of education, and in addition the contents of the syllabi of that particular system of education. Now, this is what I want to say as a warning to everyone . Gentlemen, take me seriously this afternoon · for your information the Department of Bantu Education in the Republican Government is forging far ahead. Don't be bluffed by the term " Bantu education" . They are forging far ahead , and all aspects of the new approach have been taken very seriously - and for some time , for that matter. Again, let me say that nobody must make any reference to the system of Bantu education which was given by the Cape Province . If you say so you are lost because the Cape Province system of education should never come in at present. (Interjections ) The
162 .
is no harmony between him and his assistant teacher , overloads the assistant with work. I know of a case where the female teacher was given the duty of taking charge of the school choir and to attend concerts , and she was also put in charge of drill and sewing , while the principal also expected her to do the normal quota of work in the school. I would ask the hon. Minister to take note of these matters . To give an example , we have a school which has a Sub A class of 90 children with one teacher, and another one has a combined class of 47 pupils under one teacher. In Stds. 3, 4, 5 and 6 the roll is 40 and there are three teachers for the four classes , and one teacher gives instruction to only six pupils in the school. I would also refer the hon. Minister to the fact that in the schools headed by European principals , when there is trouble the police are usually called to the scene and the children are turned We would rather the Minister himself out. went to investigate such disturbances in the schools . There are some very nervous princi-
if you were invited to Fingoland you would see good progress being made there . This year thousands and thousands of children could not find vacancies in the schools. Our people , the headmen and our leaders ask that the children should be kept at school even ifthey have nowhere to go. Where rehabilitation has been accepted there is no worry as far as the children are concerned because it is not incumbent upon them to herd stock. What about you who object to rehabilitation? Your child stands up the whole day long herding cattle , and the education we have now is as a direct result of rehabilitation. (Interjections) The hon. member says I am not educated, but I have provided sufficient for the education of my children. We beseech the hon. Minister to give us more schools in order that our children should be accommodated in education. We would ask that children should not be sent home to go and collect their fees when the fees are not paid, but parents should be written to because when the child has gone home and returns to school he finds that the other children have made greater advance in their lessons. We think that the failure of the children at school is largely due to the fact that they go to and fro between home and school . We also ask the hon. the Minister of Education to make provision for the feeding scheme in all schools . It is not a good thing to find that some schools have been provided with a feeding scheme and others not. During the present depression and famine the children suffer a great deal . Even in the primary schools the school buildings are not in good condition as most of the huts have been thatched and now it is impossible to find thatching grass . We ask the hon. Minister to put up schools for us. Many of the children do not attend school because there are no schools. We also ask for this other remedy from the hon. the Minister of Education. In these institutions the children should be allowed time to go and play with sticks so that the knife does not play a prominent part in the lives of school-going children. (Laughter) The Education Department should allow the children to use sticks so that they do not use knives . Once there were certain boys who used to attend the institutions , but now they are buried because of the use of knives . When I was at school , during the interval we used to be allowed to go to a certain place some distance from the school and play with sticks and we forgot all about knives . We would ask the Government to make such provisions in connection with education. We know that anger will always be present and this use of sticks instead of knives should be permitted. In the Nomaheya school we saw something dreadful - knives being used by the students. The boys stabbed one another and they had locked up the head of the school . If these children were allowed to use sticks when fighting they will just have a fair fight with sticks instead of knives. You cannot say a man must not lose his temper but if you want a very good remedy for an African, give him a good hiding with a stick. ( Laughter ) I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
pals in these institutions who take exception even to playful attitudes on the part of the students and immediately call the police . I would like also to refer to the scholarships mentioned by the hon. the Minister of Education, when he stated that the children would be given these according to merit. I approve of the step taken by your department, but I would like to add that we hope you will pick on a school such as will not drive our pupils away as I have mentioned. I am thinking of the principal teacher a man who is worthy of Shawbury Institution of admiration in his work , Mr. Mkumatela. I think he has held the record in the Transkei this year for in the matric examination only one pupil obtained a first- class pass in the Transkei and that was a pupil from his school . • Several others ofhis students obtained distinction in some subjects . I have a suspicion that you will give him promotion as inspector of schools. I am not against such promotion, but I would like to say that there is harmony between him and his staff at that school and if you grant scholarships to pupils going to Shawbury we will approve that, because the education given there is very good . Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer in a small way to the address of the last speaker. I don't know why he is always worried about Mr. Mafeje . He always refers to him in his replies. We would like that side of the House to understand , as you maintain that he did not apply for posts in these tribal university colleges , that the universities overseas are multi-racial . -
MR. M. MASIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to say that education in the Transkei has been well attended to by the hon. Minister · so much so that although one hon. member suggested his salary should be reduced I say it should be increased. ( Laughter) He has done very good work. In the region from which I come , Fingoland, we have a few high schools and they are crowded with children. We would ask the hon. Minister to build more schools . Since we have accepted rehabilitation we have large numbers of children free to attend school. Even those people who criticize rehabilitation have no appreciation of its worth and
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wish to advise the House that I will allow only one speaker now before the hon. Minister replies . 163.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: By the way , hon. members , we are dealing with the amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary , but we find there are all sorts of requests being made which could be made at the Minister's offices, but the amendment cannot, so I think we must deal with the amendment .
MR . B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we are surprised to be told that this debate is now going to end when we were told we should place our requests before the hon. Minister. There are many members who wish to speak because we have been sent by the people to represent them here. There are 26 districts which have representatives all wanting to make representations . The school building in Ngangelizwe municipal location is too small to accommodate such large numbers of children. The people of Ngangelizwe ask that the school be extended. When the people of Ngangelizwe came to see the hon. the Minister of Education they were disappointed when they were refused the use of one of the buildings. They stated that the children who were attending primary school would be provided with another building elsewhere and the buildings which have been completed would accommodate the secondary pupils. They did not receive a good reply but were told they should go and see Mnyani whom they had elected. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not know where we shall be now if we are going to consider the question of special requests of hon. members before the closing of a debate. I am sure hon. members wil agree with me that if there is any Vote which is thoroughly dealt with it is this one. Even when you wanted to close the debate on the policy speech I was keen to see that the members had an opportunity to discuss this Vote. It must be noted that there is a time limit to the whole budget debate . I would , Mr. Chairman, that you abide by your ruling that after the hon. member for Dalindyebo has finished I will reply and then a vote be taken. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What I was doing, seeing that the hon. Mr. Mnyila is of the same party as the hon. Mr. Mnyani , was to divide the time so that the last speaker and the hon. Mr. Mnyila could each have a share.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Were they not given some classrooms to use in the higher primary blocks? MR. MNYANI: They did not receive a satisfactory reply but were told to go and consult Mnyani . At Mpeko a secondary school building had been applied for and I wish the application for that school could be dealt with as soon as possible. I believe an application from Xwili has also been received , and also from Ncambedlana . I wish these buildings could be erected quickly. When hostels are being built we request that at Dalindyebo a hostel should also be built. I ask the hon. the Minister of Education to consider this one aspect, when parents will sell the only beast in their possession and yet the child will not be accepted at school . This makes the parents suffer when they have to go from school to school making application on behalf of their children. One other worry which the parents have is when children pass J.C. in the third class and are not accepted for the primary higher course . After their applications have been accepted by various institutions , these parents are advised that the children cannot be accepted as a circular had been received from Pretoria stating that the children should not be accepted. You know to what degree we incur expenses when making arrangements for a child to attend school. The hon. the Chief Minister said he was going to consult the Republican Government in connection with the sales tax and when he does that he should also do his best to see that we get something from this R300 million. I am pleased that this tax has been introduced as the Republican Government will not be in a position to say that we have not contributed anything towards this taxation.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don't think that will be equitable, Mr. Chairman. A member is entitled to his share of the time and the Chairman has no discretion to divide the time of the members among themselves. I move that the House adjourn till 2.15. The debate was adjourned.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Vote 3, Education, was resumed. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I was referring to the tax that we are liable for. It is known that while we buy exercise books for our children, we do so also for the European children who get their books free , for there will be a tax on these books . When the money is being shared , therefore , we will be cheated out of our share. We only receive one-ninth of what the European gets. There was an interjection to the effect that I am dragging in politics , but I can mention that the agreement we came to that education should not be mixed up with politics was broken when the first Minister of Education, Mr. Mdledle , He carried out his work very was replaced . successfully because of the experience he had had as a teacher and when efforts were made to change the education policy into a TNIP measure , fortunately the teachers did not fall into the trap. It is only the few who wish to be made school inspectors . (Laughter ) Most of them , however , will not be drawn into the TNIP, not even for the R5 fee. The fact that the Minister of the Interior, Mr. Ndamse, was not made Minister of Education was an effort to make the education portfolio a medium for politics . (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have a special request here from an hon. member, Mr. Mnyila. He would like to put a point before the debate closes .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How special is it? 164 .
So cher's salary. Now , that is the position that R4 could have been correct in the case of a particular teacher who was receiving a particular salary.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after this comic relief which has polluted an otherwise healthy atmosphere , I think we shall just proceed and treat his remarks with the centempt they rightly deserve . I would like to commend the hon. members in this House , except the hon. member for Dalindyebo who has just spoken, for the most constructive contribution that they have contributed to this debate . (Interjections ) I know how to hit and if I hit you, you will not smile as you are doing. I am telling you because that is characteristic of all people as short as you are. (Laughter) In any event, Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I would just like to comment by way of reply to some of the remarks which were made by the hon. members , and I shall start off with the hon. Deputy Leader, the hon. Mr. Dumalisile Moses from Gcalekaland, who swore solemnly to speak the truth and nothing else but the truth, but I think by the time he sat down many people doubted that he was not a stranger to the truth. However, I think some of the remarks he made which were not true were merely intended for the amusement of the members of this House. It is true that married women were at the beginning of December given notice of termination of service . Be it known to all and sundry that when these people are employed they are told they are employed on a temporary basis , terminable on 24 hours on either side , and they were given more than 24 hours' notice.. Now, there has been a complaint as to why these people were not paid up Their services were to the 31st December. to terminate on the 7th December , if I am not mistaken, and how on earth could people whose services had been terminated be paid for the period for which they were no longer servants of the department?
MR. DUMALISILE : Our cry is that they don't go to town to loiter , they go to see the district clerk about a particular matter , or he may have to come to the department. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well, if any teacher gives a reasonable explanation of his absence it is always accepted by the department. The position is this , that sometimes these absent teachers are reported either by their principals or by someone else .
MR. DUMALISILE : And if it is the principal who is absent? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well , the assistant teachers are given the right to report a teacher too. If they do not exercise the right, it is nobody's business . Now, with regard to the employment of teachers , I would like hon. members to get hold of departmental circular No. 5 of 1967 , where the whole position is set out. I will admit that some of the regional authorities have not been able to consult with the school committee , the reason being that in the past (although this is going to be corrected) the department had to watch for the results of the trainees. Now you will agree with me that the results usually come out quite close to the opening of the schools , so the department is trying now to find out the possibility of sending the applicants ' names even before the results to the regional authorities so that the regional authorities can consult the school committees and recommend to the department. If any trainee should fail or be unwilling to take the post, then those can be vacancies which can be referred to the regional authority - that So - and- so cannot take up the post. On the question of the educational planners I must admit that the hon. member from Gcaleka seems to know the department better than I do . I don't know the work which the planners ought to do and which they do not do.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Supposing they were working in a factory? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This is not a factory. That would have been fruitless expenditure for which this Government would have been queried by the Auditor-General . Now I come to deductions from teachers fined for loitering in the streets . The hon. member for Gcalekaland said the deductions were at a flat rate of R4.
MR. DUMALISILE : (Laughter)
MR. DUMALISILE : I said " about " .
Let us change seats.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: With pleasure , provided you are elected. Now there was another complaint about the clerks in the department telphoning the inspectors . Well , I don't know whether that is true or not. However , it is a matter for investigation .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am sorry, I did not hear your "about" . All I heard were your calculations based on R4 and you make it I think I something - rands or pounds. 60 word do . The you " than know more about "about "about" might mean even 50 cents or 75 cents . It could mean even R1.50. It is all " about" .
MR.
DUMALISILE :
I have witnessed it.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Your witness is just like an echo of a big rock. (Laughter) You will echo anything. Now, with regard to the question of higher wages which has been announced by the Department of Bantu Education , the matter is receiving the attention of the department, because there has been a little omission in the gentlemen's agreement. I am not in a position to say just now what the gentlemen's agreement is. (Interjections ) I am sure you
MR. DUMALISILE : And R4? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: And R4, I agree. Now, calculations for a day's deductions on absent teachers is as follows : The teacher's salary for a month is used as a basis and then that salary is divided by the number of days in that particular month to get the day's salary , and then the result is subtracted from the tea-
165.
are afraid because you see there are a number of potential bye-elections on that side. (Laughter) Now, with regard to the closing of Upper Tyira, the matter is presently sub judice and so under the rule of sub judice matters I will not say much about it, but I will say this : The teacher concerned took a high-handed action in closing the school without advising the circuit inspector, without advising the school committee , without advising anybody. (Interjections ) You seem to be worried by the word " TNIP" . Your mind is just overflowing with the word " TNIP, TNIP " , every time "TNIP" . Now the matter of the teacher concerned is being investigated and if necessary strong disciplinary action will be taken against him. Now, with regard to the poor diet at our boarding schools , hon. members will realise that our schools are in the unfortunate position in that we have two types of boarding schools. We have boarding schools which are under the authority of the missionaries and we have got those which are directly under the Government. Now, in all these schools there are inspectors of health who go round and prescribe the type of diet to be given to the students , but you will appreciate that we are going through a certain age where students are prone sometimes to dictate as to what they want to the authorities. I am advised that at one of our boarding schools , students want to eat nothing more than bread , bread, bread , in such a way that that school is paying a huge amount for bread alone . However, the matter is being investigated because if that quota of bread should be reduced in favour of a more balanced diet you might have a strike there.
investigated. I have had something of the same thing too. (Laughter) With regard to the Sesotho language, I would ask my hon. friend to refrain from directing a question to the hon. the Minister of Justice. This is not a matter that concerns the Minister of Justice - it is a matter which concerns the whole of the Sotho - speaking people in the Maluti region. For your information, while you were in Johannesburg last year (I know you are genuinely there - I won't say you "tshipa-ed" there) the Minister of Justice , myself and the Secretary for Education held a small meeting of the regional authority, the important people in the region and some of the old teachers, to discuss this very matter. It was decided at that meeting that the regional authority should approach the Sotho people in their various areas and come to a decision. It was after the Secretary of that department had given a true exposition of the position. We are still waiting for the decision from Maluti. I must comment on the very constructive criticisms from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. There has been a suggestion with regard to the formation of an advisory council . I think he also canvassed that point. There is provision in the Education Act, No. 9 of 1966 , section 27 : - " The Minister may - (a) establish an educational advisory council in the Transkei in the manner prescribed in the regulations ; " so the department could investigate the feasibility of the formation of such a council.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: By the way, have any regulations been drawn up in terms of that Act? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They are in print. Now, on the question of the new approach, the new approach does not change the contents of the syllabus. It is merely a new method of teaching the subject matter. There was a request from the hon. member for Qumbu and also the hon. member for Dalindyebo, who conveniently closes his ears sometimes when people are speaking the department is doing everything possible to start more and more secondary schools , but that is not without considering certain impediments and difficulties , the chief of which is the shortage of teachers . One of the conditions that the department looks into is the distribution of Std. 6 feeder schools , and I have heard people saying that everything good goes to Cofimvaba. I am going to show you that it does not all the time. I will just give you examples to show you that the department has got to try to see to those districts which are poorly supplied with secondary schools. I will start with the Std . 6 schools and then the secondary, high and training schools ;
MR. MNYILA: What about meat? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , you are quite right, but sooner or later students complain that the meat is too bony. That will have its own troubles too. Unfortunately, you won't have the type of boarding-master we had who said, when we complained about the bony meat, that he should have to send us to a place where we could find sheep without bones . (Laughter) Now, the question of the fifty bursaries I think the hon. members were sufficiently replied to in that connection. If we did not select these students on merit that would defeat the very purpose of these particular bursaries. Now , the question of the books - there was a complaint about books that there is an arbitrary amount which is laid down and that amount is stuck to, no matter whether the particular student has got books which he or she might have inherited from a sister or brother. This matter is being
District
Ratio
Std. 6 Schools
Secondary Schools
Bizana
26
2
13 - 1
Butterworth
26
3
9 · 1
6
1
6 - 1
Engcobo
27
2
Flagstaff
17
Elliotdale
17
166.
High Schools
1
9 · 1
1
17 - 1
Std. 669 I Schools
District
Secondary Schools
High Schools
Ratio
19
1
19
19 Kentani (with Macibe approved for 1970)
1
19 - 1
Libode
18
2
- 1
Lusikisiki
30
4
Matatiele
47
3
Mount Ayliff
19
2
9 - 1
Mount Fletcher (with Zibi Meyer for 1970)
29
2
15 - 1
Mount Frere
55
M qanduli
18
Ngqeleni
21
Nqamakwe
40
Idutywa more
Q
11 - 1 9 - 1
2
2
12 - 1
1
11
1
13 - 1
10.19
11
1
1
1
18 - 1
2
11 - 1
22
3
535
VOITADUUA
1
333
Tabankulu
29
St. Mark's
8 - 1
1
#11
Port St. John's Qumbu
1
sdy
22
1
11 · 1
11 - 1
34
Tsomo
30
Umtata
32
Umzimkulu
34
Willowvale
34
3
11 - 1
Xalanga
20
3
7 - 1
2424
Tsolo
2
CO
223 222 1
· ·
7 - 1
Clarkebury - 38 entered and one passed , so So Shawbury was the percentage was 2.6. actually No. 7. Now, hon. members also complained about posts which remain vacant for a long time. This is due largely to the negligence of principal teachers and instructions have been given that strict disciplinary measures will be taken against these people because the children suffer when there are no teachers in the schools . I have got here two examples of late information by the principals , either of teachers who had not assumed duties or teachers who had In one school a left the particular school. teacher left on the 22nd September , 1968 , and the principal only informed the department on It might be Ngqeleni . the 5th May , 1969. In another case the teacher left (Laughter) at the end of December and the department was informed in May. Now, the teachers are sent circulars every month (just these circulars about which some of the hon. members here have complained) and in every circular there is this : "To all principals and district clerks - You are requested to advise head office without delay of all matters affecting your staff. Have you
- 89.4 per cent 82 81.5 65.6 62 54.5 47.3 37.5 35,3 30.7
1
6 - 1
So you see, hon. gentlemen, that the department is trying the best they can to meet the situation amidst the many difficulties . While on this question which was raised by the hon. member for Qumbu , I wish to advise him that Shawbury did not have the best results. Probably the hon. member just looked at the firstclass passes and the number of distinctions and did not take into cognizance the number of students who were there and the number who passed. I will just give you the percentage passes , I will not give you numbers . You can get them if you want them . They are :-
Jongilizwe Emfundisweni St. John's College Blythswood Cicira Bethal Shawbury Osborne Rode Ndamase
15
"" " "" with one first class
99
167.
in fact, I would like the heads of the regional authorities to note this particularly. Frequently, after deliberations on various matters by the regional authorities amongst which may be educational matters , the regional authorities simply send the minutes of proceedings without any covering letter to say that the regional authority has decided on this , that and the other, and they would like the department to act on that. Now frequently the department finds that the executive of the regional authority meets and makes a decision on a particular matter, then those minutes are sent to the Education Department. Then again, the whole regional authority meets and discusses that same matter and they make an opposite decision and send those minutes again to the department and the department finds itself in a difficulty as to what to act upon. So will the heads of regional authorities and the members please note that whenever they make a decision appertaining to educational matters , the secretary of the regional authority be instructed to write to the department and tell the department what the decision was and what the wishes of the regional authority are . Now, hon. members, there have been so many matters raised and also requests made to the department, and I can only say in conclusion that the department will give consideration to all the matters raised , as well as the requests .
returned on the prescribed form these following matters?...." That is just to remind the principals about their duties . "(a) Termination of duty. (b) Termination of service . (c) Absence of teachers from school. " As I say , this goes out from the department every month and principals are required to read it and, after reading it, to pass it to their assistants who must attach their signatures . MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: What happens in the case where the principal of the school is the worst offender in that respect? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is that more often than not school committees do not report to the department . When they do, investigations are made and appropriate action is taken, but school committees themselves I don't know what happens. Sometimes you find them in favour of the teacher who has done wrong. I remember a case of a principal teacher who assaulted a lady teacher and he was fined in a court of law, but when he was transferred on demotion there was a hue and cry . CHIEF MAJEKE : He gave the committee members some "sweets " . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I don't know, but that is the position. He was actually convicted in a court of law. With regard to the question of field staff, I think the hon. members will be happy to know that it has been decided finally that even non-graduates can be appointed as supervisors. You see , in the past our secondary and high schools were drained of the best teachers and these teachers were appointed as supervisors because the regulation then was that only graduates could be appointed as supervisors , and there was always a wrangle between the department, the Cabinet and the Public Service Commission because that was a regulation of the Public Service Commission, not the department. Now, there has been a complaint about a certain inspector who is going round as an Afrikaans expert or specialist and a question was asked as to why this inspector could not be appointed as an inspector of Afrikaans . Most unfortunately, this inspector happens to be an employee of the Republican Government and the Republican Government does not have an Afrikaans inspector on their establishment. This gentlemman is , however , given a small area so that he can attend to his duties as an inspector who goes round examining Afrikaans and giving instruction in Afrikaans .
MEMBERS : Hear , hear. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: With regard to the Nyanga affair, the books have been sent to the auditor and it will be only on the report of the auditors that the department will take action. MR. K.M. GUZANA : registration?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is not known to the department. The department is not aware that the schools charge such a fee for registration. In fact, it is quite illegal and an investigation will be made on that. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now put the amendment that the Minister's salary be reduced.
The amendment was lost. The sum of R6,627,000 was passed to stand part of the Schedule .
MINISTER OP POSITION MEMBER : paid?
What about the R5
How much is he
OF THE INTERIOR SPEECH , 1969
:
POLICY
Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don't know. He is paid by the Republican Government. With regard to the Afrikaans books , there is no principal who is compelled to buy particular books . The department and the departmental officials have a right, of course , to recommend certain books to the principal teachers . If the principal teacher likes he may buy those books and if he likes he may buy some other books. I would like the hon. members to note this and ,
•
168.
In considering Vote 4 you will observe that R4,736,750 of the total amount of R5,018,000 asked for, is directly or indirectly earmarked for welfare services in one form or another. The remainder of the Vote, totalling only R218,250 is required for the payment of salaries , wages and allowances and also to meet expenditure in respect of the purchase of stationery, land, etc.
Financial provision for welfare services is therefore the salient feature of my Vote and it behoves me to dwell at length on certain of these services for the benefit of the House.
The amount voted proved to be quite inadequate but owing to an over - estimation of the funds required under other items of the departmental Vote , the scheme could be continued with. An amount of R370,230 was in fact ex-
Before I do so Mr. Chairman, I feel that it would not be amiss at this stage to refer briefly to two other aspects regarding my portfolio.
pended on the scheme up to the end of March , 1969. Because of the effects of the serious drought it is apparent that the Government will have to continue with the scheme during the lean months ahead and an amount of R850,000 is therefore required for this purpose .
Firstly, I wish to refer to the 1968 General Election which is looked upon as an important milestone in the history of the constitutional development of the Transkei . This was the first General Election which was planned and organised locally and I doubt whether there are many of us present here today who can truthfully say that we have more than an inkling of what was entailed to make it the success it most certainly was . And we must not lose sight of the fact that the General Election was preceded by a mass re-registration of Transkeian voters throughout the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa - an undertaking which took months to organise and to complete .
Whilst on this point, Mr. Chairman , I deem it necessary to inform the Honourable Members on the opposite side of the House that when the Government originally decided to launch the present scheme, the question regarding the remuneration payable to distressed persons was discussed at length and the decision to limit the amount to 25 cents per day regardless of age or sex, was taken purely and simply with a view to ensuring a measure of relief to as great a number of distressed persons as possible within the limitations of available funds .
We can feel justly proud of our election machinery which ran smoothly and without noise and I make bold to state that the responsible approach of the main political parties who contested the elections and the general conduct of the voting public have set a trend which not only bodes well for the future , but also reflects to the credit of the Transkeian nation as a whole.
It was realised at the time that opponents of the Government would not hesitate to decry the decision taken, particularly as they would not be required to foot the bill. The Government was , however, prepared to forego political gain in order to assist as many distressed persons as possible and I am happy to say that the scheme has proved to be a Godsend to a daily average of approximately 17,000 distressed persons since date of its inception.
Secondly I wish to refer to the labour situaYou will have gleaned tion in the Transkei.
As far as the introduction of a temporary supplementary feeding scheme for pre -school and primary school children is concerned, my department has already launched such a scheme in anticipation of the necessary funds being voted for this purpose.
from the report of my department which was tabled a few days ago, that the total placement of labour in employment during 1968 exceeded the total for the previous year by 15,467.
Whilst this , Mr. Chairman, is a very encouraging state of affairs, it is a fact that our labour bureaux had to go to great lengths to fill requisitions for labour in respect of new fields of employment or lesser known employers.
The scheme is confined to the districts of Matatiele , Mt. Fletcher, Mt. Frere , Qumbu, Tsolo, Umtata, Idutywa, Engcobo, Cala, Cofimvaba and Tsomo and over 280,000 children will be fed at more than 700 schools during the next few months.
This undue fastidiousness on the part of workseekers, especially in the light ofprevailing conditions where the supply of labour exceeds the demand, and the increasing number of desertions among the ranks of employees attested on contract, may tend to make Transkeian labour less popular with Republican employers. These are problems which require serious consideration by all concerned if the demand for Transkeian labour is to be maintained.
I wish to reiterate that this is a supplementary feeding scheme and that the concentrated food will not be enough to sustain the children. Parents will therefore have to see to it that their children are not excluded from the normal family diet because of the feeding received at schools. Honourable Members may well ask the questions: Why the expense and why all the effort? The answer to these questions is straighforward and obvious . The food , which consists of maize base fortified with proteins , the whole spectrum of vitamins and certain essential minerals , will supplement the expected poor quality diet and will go a long way to combat the effects of deficiency diseases such as Kwashiorkor and Pellagra.
I come now to the welfare services rendered by my department. When the amount of R201,000 was voted last year for the employment of distressed persons on relief works in the drought- stricken districts of the Transkei , it was the fervent prayer of all concerned that the coming season , would bring good rains and an abundant crop. This was, however, not to be and the relief scheme, which was launched during June, 1968, had to be continued with right up to the present stage.
I know that there will be those who will 169.
concede that we are a very poor community and therefore a Government of the Transkei must of necessity look after the people who are impoverished by circumstances , whose wages and salaries are low, who are afflicted by disabilities which are attributable sometimes to their poor economic circumstances . This responsibility is on the shoulders of the Department of the Interior and therefore we must say how much we welcome this consideration on the part of this department. Having said that, one sometimes wonders whether or not a government which is engaged in welfare services does not undermine the self-dependence of the individual and the sense of initiative which has to be developed in the individual members of a community. In the knowledge that the Government will come to one's aid there is a tendency to exaggerate one's difficulties; there is a tendency not to try to save oneself from economic pressure, and the result is that we have a developing community that lies on its back, rather than stands on its feet and tries to move forward. However, I know that this department will not begrudge deserving cases of help and financial assistance which usually alleviates the misery of poverty, misery of illness and the misery of disability in the body. The hon. the Minister of the Interior has commented on the last general election and has fortunately excluded a political flavour in his comments . I am afraid he has disappointed the hon. the Chief Minister because if it had been the hon. the Chief Minister in this department he would still be , as he put it, rubbing salt into an open wound. (Laughter) One wonders who has the wound, because I am inclined to the view that the last general election cannot be regarded as a complete assessment of the political convictions of the people in the Transkei. The number of registered voters has commendably increased and yet the percentage poll in the whole of the Transkei is only 53.6 , and this leaves an undetermined , an uncommitted vote of 47.4%. One must therefore concede that almost half the voting population of the Transkei has not indicated its conviction and support either of the policy of the one party or the policy of the other party. we must
criticise the Government for limiting the scheme to the districts mentioned, but Honourable Members can rest assured that the decision was only taken after a thorough investigation of reports received from all over the Transkei and with due regard being had to the financial implications. As regards the increased amounts asked for in respect of social benefits I wish to state that whilst there has been a considerable increase in the number of pension applications of late , most probably due to the effects of the drought, it is also my intention to introduce a Bill during the present session to provide for increased pensions payable to the aged , the blind and certain disabled persons. I will have more to say about this when the Bill is introduced in the House. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I believe that all governments are faced with the problem of deciding which welfare services to include and which to exclude from their programmes of Such activities must of necessity be action. limited and the adage that you must cut your coat according to your cloth holds good in all walks of life.
It is essential, however, that the populace should not only look to the Government for its welfare services , but should also organise such services amongst themselves . Just over twenty welfare organisations have been registered in the Transkei to date and it is to be hoped that these organisations will not only pave the way for the creation of many more such bodies , but will also create an awareness of the value of welfare work amongst an ever-increasing body of public -spirited individuals. Honourable Members will have noticed that I have only touched on a few of the activities of my department. A detailed resumé was however considered unnecessary in the light of the information contained in the report of my department which was tabled a few days ago. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members I now move that Vote 4 be approved by this Committee.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: mvaba and Butterworth ?
What about Cofi-
MR. GUZANA : As regards Cofimvaba and Butterworth, they have not been included in these percentages which gives us a total of 67,201 voters , and you know, of course , that the majority of those voters live in Butterworth and would have voted for the Opposition . (Laughter) I have come out of the general election with this impression, that the people are beginning to learn what political parties stand for, and if I had obtained the majority I would have held the same attitude . I want, however, to make a few comments on the general election. Are we indeed having a ballot system of voting ? Where you have an electorate which may be said to be 80% illiterate , can we really say they are exercising a secret vote in the ballot box? Can we say that because there is in the majority of cases no secrecy at all , and because most of the voters are susceptible to influence , intimidation and authority, that these people really exercise the
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members .... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Are you the shadow Minister of the Interior as well? MR. GUZANA : I shadow everyone in that Cabinet. I think the general impression created in this House after we have heard this speech is that it is the shortest since we began. I don't know whether that is the result of the fact that the hon. Minister concerned is the shortest member of the Cabinet. ( Laughter) Let me say from the onset that we are pleased to note that there is an increased financial provision for welfare services in the Transkei. If we take the general public in the Transkei at face value,
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THE CHIEF MINISTER : Not only the Opposition - both major parties .
secret ballot to express their inner conviction? If we are going to boast that the citizens of the Transkei have been allowed to exercise this democratic right, should we not as a Government seek ways and means of diminishing external influences which may be exerted upon the voter when he is in the voting room? Has it not happened during the last general election that a last-minute whisper of authority into the ear of an illiterate voter has changed the conviction of that voter and has made him vote against his own inclination? Shouldn't we therefore -
MR. GUZANA : I am not speaking of the agents , I am speaking of witnesses. THE CHIEF MINISTER : should have witnesses .
Yes , and these witnesses MR. GUZANA : should be regarded as officials necessary in the process of polling and be entitled to the usual emoluments and allowances which are paid to officials engaged in this polling. This will exclude some of the statement made to prospective voters at the polling stations , that that sort of thing is not done at this polling station , and that: If you don't do what we are doing there will be consequences following upon your I am sure hon. members in the deviation. Opposition will also canvass this point. Let me pass on to the next one. Candidates are allowed to be present when votes are counted in the respective districts at the magistracies . They take an oath of secrecy and are not supposed to let any information out. Now , this does seem very fair not only to the chief returning officer, but also to the candidates themselves . There are Transkei voters who cast their votes in the Republic and candidates are entitled to have agents at these stations , but the secrecy which surrounds the reports from these urban areas to the Department of the Interior is something inexplicable . If anybody is entitled to know what is going on it is the contestant at an election, and one has always wondered why the results of voting in urban areas are not sent to the returning officers of the respective districts so that the urban vote and the rural vote of the constituency are collated at the office of the returning officer of the district, so that here at least the candidate has an opportunity to see the number of votes that he has obtained or lost from the urban areas collated with the local totals . What is going to be the feeling of a candidate if there is a border decision in the rural or constituency vote which is either negatived or confirmed by urban votes which have not been sent to his constituency but direct to the chief electoral officer? I think there is need to give the people confidence in the outcome of an election, and everything that militates against cultivating that confidence should be eliminated to the minimum. Here is another feature which attaches to the direct reports from the urban area to the chief electoral officer: Candidates who have either succeeded or failed in winning an election have addressed letters to the chief electoral officer seeking to know the urban vote and in my view they are not only entitled to know that, but also they need to know it to gauge their prospective strength inthe various urban centres where there is a large congregation of Transkeian voters . They have found that this information is unavailable to them , then there is a feeling of grievance and a feeling of dissatisfaction and a thought that something behind the scenes has been done about the results . We speak about these , Mr. Minister , because we would like you to give attention to them, particularly because I see quite a lot of old men in the Government
should not the Government devise ways and means of at least giving a fair modicum of secrecy to the electorate when it is exercising its vote by some form or another? I still again recommend on behalf of the Opposition the use of symbols for the parties ; thus for the Opposition, for instance , we could have a ram and for the Government side we could have a cockerel . (Laughter) Now, that symbol stands out clearly and it is known by all illiterate voters , and when the voter comes in all he or she has to do is to put a dot over the ram, and probably cross out the legs of the cockerel or cut its head off. (Laughter) Then the paper is folded and put into the ballot box . THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about pictures of the leaders?
MR . GUZANA : all righ....
Yes, probably that would be
THE CHIEF MINISTER : sweep the Transkei .
Yes , both parties
Then we would
MR. GUZANA : ....but I am afraid I would not like to be associated with the Chief Minister in a picture. I may be a bit facetious about this but I think this business of symbols will pass on to the electorate some sense of reality in our elections . Now, Sir , with the present system where the voter has to whisper the name of his choice , this is the sort of thing that sometimes happens : An over-enthusiastic agent for the TNIP or for the Democratic Party says quite loudly: "Who are you going to vote for?" - and the innocent voter says : "Matanzima " . (Laughter) Now the whole secrecy has been destroyed altogether, and these loud whispers are usually to please the person who is asking for whom the voter is going to vote. I think we make a farce of this democratic privilege if we are going to continue in the way we have been doing up to the present time. We have now graduated into party politics in the Transkei and the procedure where political parties contest a seat is that the political parties are represented , where witnesses have got to vouch for the correctness of the voting mark placed on the ballot paper. I must say that we lacked that very much in the last general election. Without casting reflections on polling officers , I think the sense of fair play must not only be known to them alone but must also be seen to be done in the eyes of contesting parties . We ask that the Government should consider calling uponthe Opposition to suggest witnesses at polling stations and the Government should pay these witnesses as officials appointed at polling stations.
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The Deputy Chairman reported progress.
benches who are going to peter out and result in a bye-election. (Laughter) I see one representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland who is going to apply for a disability grant too. Sir, the other members of the party will speak about this matter. I want to pass on to the next point. You have excused the brevity of your policy speech by referring us to the Transkei Government Department ofthe Interior Report for the years 1967/1968. Now, this is no excuse for making your policy speech short. This is for the past years and you are delivering a policy speech for the financial year 1969/1970. (Laughter) You have therefore not justified your request for this amount if you have not told us anything about what you are going to do in the coming year. However, if we turn to page 8 of the report of past things done , I see that you indicate under paragraph 23 that during 1968 alone a total of R305,000 was paid into individual trust accounts in the Transkei . One wonders how you divide up the accrued interest so that it goes to the people who have amounts in that trust account. Is this amount deposited in one trust account, or in respect of each individual's trust funds and the interest credited to each trust account? It is quite possible that the Government merely collects the interest from the trust funds so invested. I am not sure what the position is , but if that is so then it means that the Government is robbing the poor citizen of the Transkei of interest which would otherwise be paid over or credited to the people. How can the Government do that sort of thing to the already impoverished Transkeian? I
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 13th May, 1969. TUESDAY, 13th MAY , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to announce that Chief Hlomendlini Magadla and Chief Ngubesizwe Mgudlwa are still in Sir Henry Elliot Hospital in Umtata . I am happy to report that the hon. the Paramount Chief of Tembuland , Chief Sabata Dalindyebo has recovered and is now with us in this Chamber, although his seat is at present vacant. I hope he will come in during the course of the day but he has been with us during the past week. Chief D. Gecelo has not been able to attend the sessions of this Assembly as he is still in hospital in Cala. The second announcement is that tomorrow afternoon the House will adjourn for a long weekend, but that will depend on the negotiations which have to take place between me and the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the expedition of the Appropriation Bill which must be signed by the State President before the 31st May . I hope you will be able to control some of the wild horses across the floor (Laughter) to enable me to submit this Appropriation Bill on the 21st so that I can thereafter attend to the more important matters affecting the people of the Transkei . I withdraw that, Another matter is, if hon. Mr. Chairman. members will see to it that they are here at 3 o'clock to receive their inoculations against Hong Kong ' flu , which is imminent, then we can adjourn after that, but if they are not then we shall carry on until 5 p.m.
notice with appreciation on page 9 that there will be established in Umtata specialist orthoNow, this is a very great paedic services. need in the Transkei and one cannot commend the Department of the Interior too highly in being able to secure this service. You only need to walk down Your Road to meet the crippled, to meet the deformed , to meet the hunchbacks (we exclude those who limp because they have taken Jabulani) . (Laughter) The Cripple Care Society in Umtata has been crying out aloud for this service and we say "Hurrah" to the Department of the Interior in providing this.
NOTICE OF BILL
MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Wednesday , 14th May, 1969, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 (Act No. 4 of 1965) .
MR . GUZANA : We are most grateful for the post which has been established at Bedford Convent Farm . Mr. Chairman , I still have a lot to say and I would be grateful if you would grant me an indulgence tomorrow because there are quite a number of important points raised in the big book of the past not in the small policy speech and in order not to wear out your temper this afternoon I propose to sit down so that you may adjourn whilst you are in a good mood, Sir.
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 11. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice :(a) What examinations are presented for Transkei Police? (b) What promotions follow the passing of such examinations ?
The debate was adjourned. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that you report progress.
(c) If there be no examinations preceding promotions, why is it so ? REPLY: (a) None . (b) Falls away.
Agreed to. House Resumed 172.
QUESTION NO. 12. Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Justice :-
(c) Examinations for purposes of promotion are not considered necessary at this stage .
(a) How many people ( if any) in the Ngqeleni district have been prosecuted for stock found on main roads during 1968?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I may just mention, Mr. Chairman , that promotions are on merit and possibly give you these figures : Since 1964 there has been one promotion from senior sergeant to chief sergeant ; from sergeant to senior sergeant 7 from constable to sergeant - 15. This is out of 110 members of the force, bearing in mind that some have been pensioned some have died and so on.
(b) How many people ( if any) have been convicted upon prosecution? (c) If fined , what has been the total amount of fines following upon the said prosecutions for the same period?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , arising from the reply by the hon. the Minister of Justice , what justification is there for the dictum that examinations are not considered necessary, in view of the fact that in the S.A.P. constables have to write examinations, sergeants have to write examinations , and all the various ranks in order to receive or be considered for promotion, in addition to merit? Is there not a danger that the Transkei police may not know the legal routines which are essential to qualify a man for a higher rank, and also the regulations which they have got to observe and which they have to know, and also is it not possible that the standard of the different ranks in the Transkei police may well fall by reason of the fact that there is no , shall we say, mental test which examinations provide?
(d) How many car accidents ( if any) have occurred involving the said stock ? (e) How many fatal accidents (if any) ? (f) How much in collective damages has been suffered by car owners involved in accidents with the said stock? (g) How many cattle , horses , sheep and goats have been confiscated by the State because their owners were not able to release them ? REPLY : (a) Twenty-two. (b) Twenty- two. guilt. -
They all paid admission of
(c) R390 . (d) Twenty car accidents were reported duFifteen of these accidents ring 1968. stock on the road. by were cause (e) None. (f) Unknown. No civil actions were instituted and no statistics are available . (g) None .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether my reply will satisfy the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I need to tell him that as yet the Transkei police are not doing actual police work. You find most of them in the district offices acting as clerks there , and you find some of them on land work, so it would really not be worthwhile for them to write examinations on police work when they are in actual fact not doing police work. Howver, we have 22 who are going to write this legal matric . Naturally, after they have passed their examinations their promotions will go according to their....
QUESTION NO. 13. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:J Will the Minister make a statement to the house regarding the construction of a mental hospital in Umtata. REPLY: The construction of mental hospital in Umtata is a matter which is within the jurisdiction of the Republican Department of Health . I am therefore unable to make a statement.
MR. GUZANA: Aren't you going to have a situation where you are going to have these men promoted on merit, reaching the highest rank and subsequently having these men who have passed examinations and then these men who have passed on merit will know very little about the regulations when the Transkei police start doing police work?
I many mention , however , that I have no knowledge about the construction of a mental hospital in Umtata .
QUESTION NO. 14. Chief S.S. Majeke asked the Minister of Justice :-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I don't want to dogde the issue , despite what my colleagues here are telling me....
(a) How many people have died by violence in Qumbu following upon the introduction of Jabulani 5 months ago?
MR. GUZANA: Yes , I suspected something sinister . ( Laughter)
(b) How many people have been prosecuted and convicted upon matters arising from Jabulani consumption in Qumbu?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : ....but I take it that if and when the Transkei police have to do police work, consideration will be given to That is why (c) their writing examinations . of my reply was "not considered necessary at this stage " .
(c) How many people have been involved in car accidents because they were under the influence of Jabulani in Qumbu?
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REPLY : (a) Five since the 1st January , 1969. These deaths are not necessarily attributable to the consumption of liquor or any particular kind of liquor.
the maximum is R20 per month, plus free food plus free quarters . What is the free food? Is it mealie pap? What is the diet like at these The free quarters - is it the pound places? system with concrete floors , with terraced bunks along the walls and the bunks made of cement? You see, to say "free food and free quarters" rather gives the impression of liberal rations and yet, according to the people who desert, the food is very poor and the quarters are unhygienic and depressing , and the maximum wage is only R20 a month. You take factories where these people earn R4.50 a week minimum and the maximum is R9. When he is on the
(b) This question is too vague and I am unable to reply thereto . In any event, no statistics are kept which show to what extent the consumption of any particular kind of liquor contributes to the occurrence of crime . (c) From information available , probably not more than one .
minimum scale how is he able to provide himself with adequate food ? How is he able to provide himself with quarters ? I think those figures are quite depressing and I think the Department of the Interior must make representations sufficient to ensure a decent wage for those people when they go up on contract. I think the correct attitude, when an employer seeks to recruit a man in the Transkei, is something like this : You ask yourself - would I be able to support myself and my family in the station of the employee on the wages offered ? It is no use suggesting that these people do not care for butter. It is not that they do not care for butter but that they cannot afford to buy butter , and they would like butter. They buy a pair of corduroy trousers because they cannot afford anything more refined. They will buy an old "Dlamini " second-hand coat not because of preference , but because they cannot afford a fair coat, and I think therefore the observation that there is an increasing number of desertions should arouse the hon. the Minister of the Interior to the possible adverse conditions, both financial and environmental, at the place of work which are causing people to return and desert. There must be a reason, and when a man deserts from work it is really because he is desperate and just cannot stick it. And then, Sir, you punish the dependants of such a person by saying he shall not receive help under your relief measures . You actually state that those who have refused contract labour will not be assisted under the relief of distress measures . I do not think this is the correct attitude if the Government seeks to assist its people , because 25 cents is actually less than 90 cents a day as is offered under the Railways , and I would suggest therefore that all distressed persons should receive assistance under the system of relief for the distressed , irrespective of whether or not they have refused a contract. After all , we must accord the work- seeker a certain
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House converts itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to . House in Committee The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior , was resumed. MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, firstly I want to assure the hon. the Chief Minister that he will get the utmost co-operation from the Opposition to get this bill • through before the 21st. MEMBERS : Hear , hear. He will do well , however, MR . GUZANA : to speak to the members of the Cabinet so that they don't refer us to past history. (Laughter) Sir , there is a comment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior to the effect that there are a number of desertions which are becoming alarming amongst people who have gone out on contract to work in the Republic. One would like to know whether or not, whilst the hon. the Minister of the Interior and the Chief Minister were on a holiday jaunt just before this session began they did visit some of the places where these people live , especially when they are attached to farmers in the Republic, because conditions under which these people live are sometimes of such a nature that they will make these men desert home . On other occasions these deserters complain that they start very early in the morning to work, knock off late in the evening, day in, day out, without rest in between, and are driven beyond human endurance . Then again, the wages are not commensurate with the amount of application expected of them in their jobs . In other words , the work- seeker or the labourer who is on contract has to choose between either saving his life or getting this small pittance . I have been looking at your past history , Sir, and look at page 4 in the section on statistics , almost at the end of the book, and the wages there are most discouraging as indicated . In agriculture
amount of dignity and self- respect and allow him to say : I shall not be recruited for a particular type of work, I would rather be recruited for this particular type of work. I then say, Sir, that if you had paid people under relief of distress measure more than 25 cents a day, it would not have been an item to exploit politically. Indeed , at the present moment the Opposition is persuaded to say that this Government thinks you can live on 25 cents a day, and we ask the people what sort of Government this is which will raise the dust in Caprice motor-cars, (Laughter) but will expect them to live on 25 cents a day . Let us consider this as help for the distressed and let us leave
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be bankrupt because it has to dip into its purse deeper and deeper because of this relationship of the male population of the Transkei . If a healthy situation has to be created , I think ways and means should be found of increasing the productive male population , the wage-earning male population. Just one last piece of homeI have always wondered what the work, Sir : reaction of the African is to the mark X on a ballot paper . When I went to school , if my sum were wrong the teacher put X on my exercise book and I think even the uneducated African has the impression that an X is a mark of (Laughter) It is unfortunately the rejection. mode of indicating a selection when you cast a vote, but in the classroom it is indicative of something wrong. I wonder if we were to take into account the psychological reaction of the illiterate voter we could not find some other way of marking the ballot paper · indeed, a tick, which is just what I want. Somebody once said to me during the general election : " You know, I went in there and told them I was voting for you, for Guzana , and they put X opposite your name. " (Laughter)
any political implications out of it, but just That is all. I am sure the help the people. Government would like to hear the Opposition addressing their meetings and saying : At last the Government has done something good for you and has given you 50 cents or 80 cents a day for relief work. There is also another distressing feature which is worrying me on the question of salary scales . I have spoken of the overlapping of scales and I need not repeat that at the present moment. I am worried over the fact that the Government makes a differentiation of scales as between male and female employees in the service , as ifto suggest that females do not carry as great a responsibility as males . How often have we found females supporting a widowed mother and brothers and sisters , where a male is relieved of those responsibilities ? Let us emancipate ourselves from this antiquated idea that females are always inferior to males . MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR . GUZANA : I see this in the details of salaries , wages and allowances relating to welfare officers , etc. , etc. And now I have to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Were you happy?
quote something which is very good in this connection - that Cabinet Ministers , irrespective of sex are receiving the same salary and allowance . Why not extend the same principle to the employees of this Government? You have started the right way. I am happy to note that the Department of the Interior seeks to establish more clinics. My only regret is that tribal authorities tend to be a drag on the realisation of this project. Whilst we are considering the health of the people , may I suggest that at the Umtata Hospital we have shelter for those patients who are waiting to receive medical attention. This can be done through the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. May we have , Sir , in the Transkei some hospital which is prepared to offer midwifery training? You see , under this noxious policy of separate development there is a growing resistance in hospitals outside the Transkei to accepting Transkeian citizens for training in midwifery. Without endorsing the policy I do feel that we need a hospital here where our womenfolk may be trained as midwives . May I refer to page 4, counting from the back again of the report of things past, under section F. I take it that
MR. GUZANA : I was happy, but he was not happy. I give that as a piece of homework, as a matter into which the Department of the Interior should look in order to allay this psychological reaction of the X opposite the name of the man you would like to represent you in parliament. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : they do in the Cape?
What do
MR. GUZANA: They put an X, but they don't have the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni saying : If you put X opposite So- and- so I will kill you. (Laughter) I thank you for your indulgence , Mr. Chairman. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is very humorous indeed . I followed his very constructive remarks when he was delivering his speech and whereas I concede quite a number of them in full appreciation , whilst I was concentrating on a high plane , he just came down to his jokes as usual . what is there in a cross mark or a tick if people have to vote for what they want ? Even if people were to put a big dot, what we are concerned with is how many people have voted for this one or that. It does not matter what symbol they use . Mr. Chairman , I stand up to commend the hon. the Minister of the Interior for this beautiful policy speech he has given this House and I associate myself very strongly with him . Though remarks have been made to the effect that it is the shortest so far , I can only say that brevity, conciseness to the point , is more important than en empty longevity. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has referred to a number of things in his address . This morning when I read my paper I was amazed when I saw an article about symbols suggested by the hon. leader, when it is polling
these are rough estimates of figures. I am worried by the percentages dividing up a male population of 700,000 people in the Transkei into those who are permanently on the land , those who are under the working age , those who are old and unfit and the potential manpower. It does seem to indicate that the Transkei is carrying a big population which is not an earning population. They are either a burden on the 35.7% of the manpower, or the Government has to nurse these people who form 49.3 percent of the male population alone , Working out the percentages there , I find that males under the working age are approximately 240,000 . Isn't that the delinquent element ? I would assume that if they have not reached a working age then they should be in some school or institution. I say these figures are alarming and give me concern as to whether the Transkei will not
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a single war against the Nationalists in this country. That is why the Nationalist Government has been keen to give us our proper footing under the sun. You have been spoilt by the British imperialism, the British who have never cared for you, but there is one thing which must be quite clear before you: Though the British and the Nationalists are unanimous in keeping the African people away from them, but the policy of the Nationalist Government has been acceptable throughout South Africa because they have given us something of which we can boast. (Interjections)
day. Again I regard it as his puerile way of doing things. We have no time for symbols a ram, a mule, a cockerel or anything. The people of the Transkei , like any other nation under the sun, have their own intelligence . During this period a few years after selfgovernment they have become more and considerably politically conscious . It is not a question of illiteracy or ability to write that matters . The Transkei is not the only country under the sun that has illiterate people. (Interjections) The important thing is what the hon. Mr. Guzana stands for and what the leader ofthe Government side stands for, and our duty as politicians is to go and educate the policy for which we stand. Suppose we were to go back to symbols and, assuming that DP stands for a pig which will always go down in all dirty things , and then the people will say : I am voting for a pig, the pig which will go into a multi-racial policy, whereas a sane person will always stand for green pastures which remain always undisturbed. OPPOSITION MEMBER :
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Your duty is to go to the Platteland and organize rallies to educate your people on political matters and there will be no confusion because the people will have accepted a practical policy of separate development. I still have more to say and I am ştill going to educate you more and get you out of detribalization. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the policy speech of the hon. Minister was very brief. On that account he left out much that affects the life of the people of the Transkei. I will make an effort, therefore, to remind him of certain matters . I will start with a matter affecting traders. During the time of the Bunga the traders came together and made a request that all the Bantu traders be given title deeds for the sites on which they had their trading premises, and the Republican Government considered that and certain title deeds were granted to some of the few early Thereafter such applicants were applicants , charged quitrent of R24 per annum . Inthe Transkei there are also European traders and if you note how much the European trader pays in quitrent you will find it is only R2 per annum . It is maintained that that ought to be so because the European trader was given free possession of the land on which they have established their trading stations by the African chiefs , and they maintain that at the time the land belonged to the chiefs.. Now at this particular time the land has been handed over to the African people of the Transkei. How does it come about that now that the land has been given to the Bantu people they are charged this heavy tax of R24 per annum as quitrent for their trading stations ? We would like the hon. the Minister ofthe Interior to consider this and take measures to see that this quitrent is reduced as far as it affects the African trader. I would also mention that the quitrent does not assist the African trader in any way because they maintain that these shops are on land owned by the Bantu people and therefore it is of no economic value to them. In that way the African trader does not benefit because he cannot raise a loan using this land as security, but can only use his insurance policies . I will now refer to butcheries. There is a shark away in Pretoria called the Livestock and Meat Industry Control Board . (Laughter) That shark requires that whatever beast is slaughtered by the butcher a levy must be paid on that beast.
Where are they?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The doctrine of Africanism should be like a guiding light to us. We have a duty to perform to educate the African masses of the Transkei , be they in the Transkei or in the Republic, about the policy we stand for, and once the people are properly educated about our political stand there will be no confusion whatsoever. The only cause of confusion in the Transkei was the emergence of a Democratic Party on a multi-racial platform . That is the source of confusion · it is your side. To illustrate this further, I come from Cofimvaba, a constituency that is predominantly TNIP. (Interjections) The majority ofthe population in Cofimvaba is red-blanketed people who cannot write their names , but because the people of my constituency know what we want and what they want they are not confused at all . They know what the Transkei Government stands for. They are very grateful for the recognition given to the African people during the time of the Nationalist Government. Some of you forget too soon. I was a school-teacher once and some of you that side were my colleagues. The African people in the Transkei and elsewhere are fully aware that during the advent of the White man in South Africa, the British regime was all out to crush our nationhood and that awakening has been brought into being by the Dutch Government. OPPOSITION MEMBER: And the Dutch colonialists? MR . KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Who could not be grateful to a Government that has put us on this position today? OPPOSITION MEMBER : What about the Boer republics ? MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: We, the Xhosa people fought and were involved in nine Xhosa wars, but let us be honest - were those wars between the Nationalist against the Xhosa, or were they all British versus the Xhosa people? Your history will tell you that we never fought
THE CHIEF MINISTER : language , Chief. (Laughter)
176.
Moderate your
CHIEF NDAMASE : That shark has also got a flea the butchery Commission. The Meat Board, to make things clear , requires 50 cents per large stock slaughtered and the butchery Commission a levy of 5 cents , making 55 cents altogether to be paid per large beast. On heifers and tollies the levy is about8½ cents ; on small stock, sheep and goats , about 6% ½ cents; on pigs it is 5% ½ cents per beast. Mr. Chairman , that entire levy is paid direct to Pretorial and the butchers get absolutely nothing out of it. I don't know, therefore, because the fools on the opposite side of the House say they don't want to have anything to do with the Republic. ( Laughter) . Is it because they think that the traders outside the bounds of the Transkei would like to come back into the Transkei to be cheated out of their money by these levies ? Let me now refer to the building contractors who collect sand or have stone dressed out in the reserves. The tribal authorities have put in a request that whoever takes sand or has stone dressed in their areas must be made to pay a levy of some sort or another . I cannot understand this Government, because it does not want any money to be paid to the tribal authorities . Just outside this area there is a huge quarry where the building contractors get their stone . The builders and contractors here in Umtata have their stone fetched from that particular quarry. The levy they pay for this stone is quite high but the entire levy is paid to the Republican Government and nothing comes to the people who own the land on which the quarry is situated. ·
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : sure of that statement?
Are you
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am quite sure of this because the area is under my tribal authority and we have not had a single cent out of it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Would you like your tribal authority to be a shark ? ( Laughter) Yes , but I would be CHIEF NDAMASE getting money from the land which belongs to Let me now the tribal authority concerned. refer to the social benefit grants . I do not know whether this only happens at Libode , but what we note there is very disgraceful . From each tribal village unit only six applicants are allowed to make representations to the Government for these social benefits.
Interior. He has achieved wonderful things which have not previously occurred , particularly during this hard time of depression. Many ofthe things he has done have been well spoken of and he was also advised to do something worth doing by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , because he is accustomed now and again to put certain criticisms. Amongst other things , when replying to a question from the hon. the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni he cracked a joke and as a result I know the papers are going to make a mountain out of his practical jokes . How can he , in replying to the paramount chief, say that people would vote better if there was The no such paramount chief in Qaukeni ? implication is that the paramount chiefs force people to vote according to their wishes . This question is referred to anybody . Has the Leader of the Opposition not been elected as a subject? Did the Tembus not make it convenient that he should be elected when he was canvassing? And then the Tembus made a decision that the Leader of the Opposition should represent the Tembus of Mqanduli in this House . The chiefs do not force people to vote for people they In so saying he is bringing in wish them to. a bad spirit amongst the people . Is it not correct to say that the Tembus decided to have him elected to come and represent them because it was an agreement between them and the chiefs? Can he stand up in this House and say why he has been elected by the people? It is because Paramount Chief Sabata said to the people : When I Vote for Guzana ; vote for Guzana . speak about my chief, people with little brains ask me why I do so. Simply because we are in this House we must not forget the chiefs and what they are standing for . I think I have given sufficient reply to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He is also a subject of the Tembu chiefs. Let me pass on to a more important matter , and I support the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he stated that when voting has to be carried out two witnesses should be appointed representing both parties. I also agree with his suggestion that these people should be paid by the Government because we cannot fully trust people who are not party members. I would further go and state that even where votes are being counted there should also be such people . MR. GUZANA : Hear , hear.
MR. SIHELE : There should be people of good mentality, even if they are introduced from outside the area , then there would be no prejudice as to the correct count. He stated that there should be certain symbols used , whether it be a bull or a he-goat , but what I say is that when people are going to cast their vote on the ballot paper there should just be those people going to vote and the witnesses . From observation I can see that when voting is being done it should not be a matter which is just rushed through quickly, because each voter enters the house , walks up to the people and casts his vote before any other person enters the same compartment, then he walks away. If such a system is followed people would not be in a position to hear what the voter says when he is casting his vote , because at present there
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who does the allowing ? CHIEF NDAMASE : When we make inquiries we are told it is our Government that is responsible for that state of affairs. ( Laughter) I shall not say anything wrong about the hon. Minister because we were colleagues at school. All I can say is I know you are a very reasonable man and I don't want you to oppose anything I have said, and don't take after the other fellows . (Laughter) Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to commend the good work performed by the hon. the Minister of the
177.
In 1952 both in Cape Town and East London many of our people were killed . If you ask for bread in South Africa then you have sinned. You will be termed a communist or an agitator. If you ask for bread you are given a stone . I shall now refer to the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of the Interior in connection with old age pensions. The money paid to the people is far below their needs , and this amount of money is paid in bi-monthly instalments . We appeal to the hon. Minister to increase this amount and make it possible for it to be paid monthly. I would like him to note also that on the day when the pension is paid, people are made to go to the headman after they have received their pension and pay 25 cents to the headman. (Interjections ) As soon as the person has received his pension he goes to the headman If the tribal authority and leaves 25 cents. has recommended the payment of this pension to an individual then that individual must see the magistrate , and when such applicant is before the magistrate she is asked to take off any headdress to show her head - a thing which is unacceptable to the people for , according to custom , a woman does not take off her headdress in the presence of her parents even. This practice lowers their dignity very much , especially when it is done by the magistrate. On that side you are constantly shouting that people must keep their tribal habits and customs and if the magistrate should find that such an applicant has no grey hairs then he says : Go My and marry again, you are still young. question is: Is the magistrate in a position to separate families and ask women to be remarried into other families ? Referring to the feeding scheme which you say will be put into effect, when you have a very good proposition you spoil it by picking and choosing among the areas I was of the opinion that which will benefit. this feeding scheme would cater for all children throughout the Transkei , especially during this Why do you pick on certain drought period . areas and not feed the children indiscriminately? I shall not refer much to the last election, because the hon. the Minister of Education came to a certain area and tried to put me into disfavour there , whereas he only succeeded in He told the getting the people to elect me. people at Rasmeni who wanted an extra teacher in their school that he would not give them another grant because they had voted for Majija. We are told too that he advised the people to plough anywhere on any land if only they would vote for him . At a meeting we attended with
is a crowd of people in the same room where the voting is being cast. Members should remember that when they attend this Assembly they have come to build up, not to destroy, and bad remarks should not be used because some people will take those remarks as correct. I am not a lengthy speaker and I will not repeat myself. I support what was said by the chiefs and I agree with some of the remarks made by them . If the hon. the Leader of the Opposition had said something which he himself did not quite understand, the ruling party, the TNIP , is there to put it correct and explain it. I wish we could consider matters seriously, particularly in the committee stage . There is a time when we have to discuss certain matters when we can cross swords .
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior , was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, with a view to expediting the passage of this bill, the Opposition has felt it should limit its speakers and that those who speak should just take up about five minutes or so , or hardly more than six minutes at the most. This gesture is intended to enable the the hon. Minister to reply at about a quarter or ten to 3. We hope the Government, which is unruly, will fall into line. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very much moved by the speech by the hon. Mr. ka Tshunungwa when he tried to put the Nationalists and the British in South Africa into opposite camps in the manner in which they governed the country. I noted that he had not studied very carefully the history of South Africa. The 1812 Black Circuit was as a result of the hard pressure on the Bantu people by the Boers . The Slachter's Nek rebellion was also the result of ill-treatment of the Bantu by a Boer farmer , Bezuidenhout, who said that however hard he hit a man nothing could be done to stop him because he was hitting his own slave . The Great Trek was the result of the emancipation of slaves in this country. Also , during the British regime how many people were kept on Robben Island ? Did we have the 90 day detention law that we have today? Did we have Proclamation R.400 as we have today? (Interjections) In 1960 our people suffered a great deal and died as a result of the Sharpeville riots . Even the Dutch people in Holland who are the forefathers of those in this country said they should not have done these things. We are under a dark cloud because we know our people were killed when they were trying to find food in 1960. I don't know what the hon. the Chief Minister did, but if I were to go to Sharpeville I would pray and say: Rest in peace . We wish the hon. member would not try to put the British Government against that of the Dutch and say both of them treat us in the same manner. We have not had such a hard and difficult time as we have under this present Nationalist Government. (Interjections)
the hon. Mr. Raziya we were given that information, and whatever is stated by the hon. Minister the people take to heart.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members, we must now get on to the amendments , and any speaker who wishes to make comments can make them during the discussion on the amendments. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment: "That Vote 4 be reduced by R3,200 in respect of the Minister's salary. " I put this amendment with a view to directing his attention to certain matters and I will ask him if he wil reply to 178.
him . His fellow labourers tried to intervene on his behalf to enable him to return home but this was refused and he died there . We ask the Government to negotiate with the Republican Government in this regard . After all , we are children of the Republican Government and should receive just treatment. I will now refer to beneficiaries who are returned from labour centres and who receive compensation either for pneumonicosis or some other disease . These people should be notified in time before the moneys due to them are exhausted. It is an unhappy situation where you go to get your money and are told the money is finished . We also have this request to make to the Department · that whenever there is an election in the Transkei or beyond the borders , that those who supervise the elections should be Transkei citizens. In Port Elizabeth there was quite a number of spoilt papers because the supervisors did not explain properly to the people how many people to vote for and so on, because they have no interest. I am sure if there were not so many spoilt papers the hon. Mr. Majija would not be in the House . (Laughter) Another matter raised was in regard to the six applicants for old age pensions who have to appear before the tribal authorities . It is quite true - it happens in my district as well. Under my tribal authority there are nine administrative areas , but only twenty pensioners . We are not prepared to lay the blame at the door of the department, but we request the department to issue instructions as to how many applicants should be allowed because sometimes the magistrates tell us that they will only allocate one pension in the administrative area in one year, the idea being that the people do not age much in one year, whereas there are many aged people . We are pleased to see that in all but two of the regions there are social welfare officers . We know they have a very important job to see to the welfare of our children and to prevent them from becoming delinquents . With those few remarks I say the Minister's salary should remain undisturbed .
the points I have raised . Firstly, in regard to the salaries under A, there is senior welfare officers and two typists , male and female. We know that the salaries paid to these officers are very low, whereas the female officers carry the same responsibilities as the men and they have the same qualifications. Our leader made reference to this and I will therefore not go into detail about it. In your reply we would ask you to deal with this matter of salary scales . Also , under A, there is assistant surveyor and tracer. We regard both these officers as having very high qualifications and the office they hold requires people of great ability. We would like the hon. Minister to take special note of the scales payable to such officers . MR. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to withdraw my amendment in favour of this one which I second. I support the hon. member of the Democratic Party in his amendment to the effect that the Minister's salary should be reduced . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I just don't know where we are . I see speaker after speaker coming from the Opposition. What was suggested by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition the other day was most equitable . We had a speaker on this side . When is she getting a chance ? OPPOSITION MEMBER : agreed.
The
Minister
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , it is not the Minister who regulates proceedings in this House . It is the Chair. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Chieftainess Nozizwe .
I shall call on
CHIEFTAINESS N.A. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to say that the salary of the hon. the Minister of the Interior should remain undisturbed. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has told us he appreciates the services of this department. After all, he works hand in glove with us regardless of his followers . The criticisms of the hon. member from Qumbu are not convincing enough to persuade us to reduce the Minister's salary. Mr. Chairman, I have certain recommendations which I would like the Department of the Interior to consider. In the scheme whereby people leave the Transkei under contract for the labour centres those who are over 45 are not accepted. Our request is that they should be accepted because they are not too old to work. When they are returned we are at a loss to know what to do with them because the only way they can go is on contract. Another matter which we wish to put forward is that the Department of the Interior should negotiate with the Republican Government to ensure that these people are treated justly. I have in mind people who were employed on building a dam. A close neighbour of mine died as a result of the treatment he received at that place. His fellow men said he was not well but they were told to work. The employers said they had paid the R1 fee for
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Inotice there are members who were not here when we resumed this afternoon. It has been arranged that speakers curtail their speeches to five minutes and that at 3 o'clock the hon. Minister would be ready to reply. This was in co -operation with the hon. the Leader of the Opposition in order to expedite the business of the House .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman, the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition was not seconded.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I was going to refer to the very short speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior . This is a department which is of great importance to the people of the Transkei because , as regards such departments as have not been passed over to this Government, it is the Department of the Interior which supervises those matters. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Minister's department. 179 .
No, it is the Chief
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Did she support the Democratic Party?
CHIEF NDAMASE : I notice that labour is under his department and not under the Chief Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER : of his department . CHIEF NDAMASE : his department.
She has sympathy for CHIEF NDAMASE : the people. We would that she were on this side of the House which sympathizes with the people. Indeed, the people are suffering a great deal of hardship under the labour contract system. Some report to us that in the labour bureaux they are told they will get a certain wage but when they get to the labour centre they find it is lower.
That is a section
Welfare is also under
THE CHIEF MINISTER : section of his department.
That is also a
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now are you aware that our jurisdiction in that respect is confined to the Transkei?
He should have given CHIEF NDAMASE : us very full and explicit information in regard Under the Department of to those matters. the Interior there are these officers : Assistant surveyor and tracer . In his policy speech the hon. Minister has given us no information as to whether there are any surveyors being trained, and surveying is a matter which affects the land which is always giving difficulty. We have constant difficulties in regard to our land because the lands have not been surveyed properly. On page 18 of the Report of the Public Service Commission it is stated that we have no surveyors ' course in the Transkei. I think this department would have been wise to award scholarships to youths who could be sent to centres where they could be trained as surveyors. My hon. friends stated that we have no White universities which will accept Bantu students , but I thought you could follow the same policy as you are following in connection with students studying engineering at Wits University. The fact is that we have no such opportunities because of your following this separate development policy . THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
CHIEF NDAMASE : We have no Wage Determination Board but we have a government which should look into the contracts elsewhere . It is the duty of the Republic to see that the people who are working in the Republic are properly (Interjections) We are always looked after. criticizing the Government because we see no effort made to do something for the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: tiating .
But we are nego-
CHIEF NDAMASE : I note that the hon. the Chief Minister is not at all at ease because of the irresponsibility of his Government. I don't know if it is because they have sold the labour of the people for the R1 fee they are getting. Here is another point in connection with recruited labour on the Orange River scheme . People are employed as tractor drivers and if they are injured no compensation is paid. I wish the Government would look into that.
We must have
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am also saying there should be no reduction in the Minister's salary. He has delivered a very good policy speech, if you read it well. It is not many words that speak but it is something which contains substance . The reason you say it is a brief statement is because you don't really understand. You members of the Opposition have taken members from the back benches and made them front-benchers and they are no good. I don't know why they don't give up and cross the floor. They are making a laughing- stock of the chiefs , saying the chiefs are illiterate . How do matters now stand? We have six graduates on this side of the House and how many on the Opposition side ? (Laughter) We have no fear whatsoever. You must listen to what we say. Voting was carried on very fairly. I travelled to fifteen places in Lusikisiki district to see whether the voting was being carried out well. I asked the people about that. At one place I met the wife of a certain member across the floor and she was telling the people who to vote for and that was very bad. I made no comment because I knew it would serve no purpose. Hon. members , the voting was carried out well and it was secret. You must remember that it was raining that day and if it had not been for that there would have been a much bigger percentage poll . That you must realise. We also are happy to hear that
suitable people to apply for this training. CHIEF NDAMASE : Now, referring to the section on the electoral arrangements , the hon. the Chief Minister remarked that the Government party had the biggest number of votes . The policy speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior states that only 53 per cent of the registered voters went to the polls. Of that 53 per cent a portion came to the Democratic Party and therefore this makes it very clear that the governing party, although they boast of a bigger number of successful candidates , have polled less than 50 per cent of the votes. The fact that only 53 per cent of the total number of voters took part in the elections is clear proof that the people of the Transkei are not satisfied with what is going on. I think you agree with me in that statement. If that percentage which you did not..... THE CHIEF MINISTER : What do you say about Butterworth and St. Mark's districts where That is you did not contest the elections? 100 per cent voting there . CHIEF NDAMASE : I would like you to look at the report and see what was said about those two places . I rose at a very favourable time , immediately after the hon. Chieftainess Nozizwe who, in her address , made it quite clear that she really is a parent to the people.
money paid for old age pensions is to be increased . That means that our poor people are
180.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think the purpose of requesting the Minister to reply is that the member may withdraw his amendment if he gets a satisfactory reply, so to shorten matters I think the hon. Minister can reply to the amendment and, in fact , there may be no discussion at all .
being looked after well. It is a fact there is Godliness in our country. How can we look after our old people if there is no Godliness in our hearts ? I am sure that God will look after us because we are looking well after the old women. I am not going to be lengthy but there is something very funny, because you say all the people are fools . You say all these Ministers You are fools and that is very surprising. say all their salaries should be reduced. Why do you say the salaries of all six Ministers should reduced? At least your attitude could be you only picked upon if understood be In the foreMinisters. three or two noon you said this side was composed of
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I will only refer to the amendment which deals with fencing. The Government is responsible for half a share in the cost of fences where they refer to boundaries . The cost per mile is R500 or more . You will remember, of course , that this deals with the boundaries between the Transkei and the Republic.
fools, but that side is in fact composed of fools. We have been in this particular House of Assembly for nearly six years now. Let us be The cultured and not lower the standard . reason why we had that rubbish in the House at the beginning was because we were at the start of things . Now let us lift things up and stop insulting each other. When you go on saying we are fools you are persisting in what used to be said long ago . We have a position to uphold here , and you must not laugh when any man has an injury. All the chiefs here are educated. On that side you have chiefs who have only gone as far as Std . 6. (Laughter) You must maintain a good standard when you speak and not just talk for the sake of talking. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , in amplification of the explanation given by the hon. Minister , where there are private farmers within the Transkei or the municipal areas, or any private land , and the Transkei Government has got to fence the administrative area under its jurisdiction then we regard that as a boundary fence. Are you satisfied? CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, in seconding the amendment I would like to put a question in regard to E.9. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is outside the amendment.
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:- "That Vote 4 be reduced by R5 in respect of Sub -head E , Item 8. " I shall not make a long speech on this amendment. All I want to state is that I do not like to pass over an item unless I know the aim and purpose of that item . This item refers to the contribution towards the cost of erecting or repairing boundary fences and I would like the hon. Minister to give a clear motivation under this heading . To go on to another matter I would also like an explanation of Sub-head F.5 , or possibly he will give the explanation under F.3. I would like a full explanation as regards this miner's phthisis fund. What is the position in regard to that fund? People are placed in great difficulty as regards this fund in rural areas. There was a request to the effect that the money due to them should be paid in a lump sum and this Assembly agreed with the request but we note that this is not being carried out. We would like the hon. Minister to clarify this point.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: ment are you seconding?
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am seconding the hon. Mr. Jafta but I would like an explanation on this other matter.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I should like to get to the next amendment by the hon. Mr. Jafta . J MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that Vote 4 be reduced by R5 in respect of Sub -head G , Item 2. Under this head I note that reference is made to the Cape teachers ' pension fund. I would like it noted that in former times the teachers had their pensions sent direct to them through the post, but lately they are required to go to the post office to receive these cheques. If this is as I have stated , we would like it explained as to why there has been this change when formerly they received their money quite safely. Let it be further noted that these people are quite old and have not much income and they use what little they have in transport to and from these post offices , thereby increasing their hardships. I would like also to refer to Sub-head J repatriation and re - settlement of Transkei citizens. Where are these people ? Where is this settlement referred to? We would like motivation on this point. (Interjections) This is not an amendment. These are the sub- heads under this heading, and we have a right to talk on this because we want motivation on these points .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: By the way , does the hon. member include both amendments now? MR. JAFTA: No , only one.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : amendment, Mr. Chairman.
I second the
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: the next amendment.
Let us come to
OPPOSITION MEMBER : reply first.
Which amend-
The Minister must
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He can reply after the next amendment.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Chairman,
181 .
I second, Mr.
am inclined to think, since you are a man who can use rosy and often inviting phrases , you still believe in the terse style and therefore in brevity. Mr. Chairman, I will have to deal in detail with the remarks and observations in particular of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, but before I do so quite a lot of things came from the other hon. members whose attitude was very commendable indeed , without exception, and I can only say that if they can afford me that indulgence , some of these things are the concern of the department and they are matters of irregularity which could easily have been reported to the offices or to the magistrate or, if you could get no satisfaction from the magistrate's office , to the Department of the Interior and all this could have been avoided. There has been a lot of reference and allusion in connection with money due to people who are injured or who have died and the significant thing as far as this is concerned is that for some time it has been worrying the Government. I know it is even on record that my predecessor worried about it and the present Minister has to worry about it, but this is the position. I think the member from Qumbu in particular will be satisfied and know that nobody is responsible
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I must honestly admit I could not have expected this desire to reduce the vote on this item from that hon. member . MR. JAFTA: you could explain.
It was just nominal so that
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: All pensions were increased as from 1st October, 1968. For the information of every member of the House, in fact, our contribution here is higher than any and it has been very much appreciated by the teachers concerned , but the most important item as far as this is concerned is the question of paying them through the post offices. For the information of the House , this is the ruling of the Cape Provincial Administration and the Republic and we have no control over that. Mr. Chairman, I must from the onset pay tribute to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition for the manner in which he handled the debate on this Vote. He even went further than the deliberate , easy decorum which was characteristic of him when he handled the debate of no confidence and he put me in an unenviable position because he made no criticisms , but made discerning observations which would have been a credit to anyone on the Government side, if he had the brains to join us . I must also give credit to him in particular , and to other members generally. He made observations which are a common concern of the Government at present . The next point I would like to explain is this · and, by the way, offering no apologies whatsoever . Fortunately, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition understands it very well . He happens to be a man who has been using the chopper for so long, and in addition to that he is a lawyer. The essence in any man who wants to say anything is that he must abide by the adage that brevity is the soul ofwit and you must not allow words to fall like leaves , for , more often than not, where they abound there is little sense to be found. Usually where they fall there is a lot of decayed vegetable matter which becomes humus and you can plant anything, even rubbish , there. It is for that reason we decided to say only what we wanted to say and not one more unnecessary word in that policy statement. I go further to say there was yet another reason why we decided to be as brief. If you were to allow me this department which can only be feferred to as an omnibus department, meaning an all-embracing department, we hardly used three words before we found we had already got into the Department of the Chief Minister. We deal with allowances , but before we know where we are we are interfering with the Department of Justice . We deal with labour problems , but before we know where we are , we are dealing with VMBs , the Provincial Administration and the Republican Government. We deal with social welfare services , but before we know where we are we are interfering with the Department of Education. We have to be extremely careful because if we use too many words here we may become ambiguous and embarrass the other departments . With more experience , Mr. Chairman, I can assure you the next policy speech may be even more brief. I
but, in fact, he is one ofthose responsible because he passed this Act. On page 71 , Part B of the Transkei Constitution Act , it says : "Matters falling within the classes of subjects in respect of which the Transkeian Legislative Assembly shall have power to make laws and referred to in section 37 of this Act" and these matters are then tabled. Now, turn to page 72, paragraph The Legislative Assembly will deal with 13: labour matters in the Transkei but excluding all matters dealt with in the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1941 (Act No. 30 of 1941 ) , or the Unemployment Insurance Act , 1946 (Act No. 53 of 1946). All I want to say at present, hon. gentlemen, is that it is a matter that is giving concern to the Chief Minister and the Minister, but at present we can say nothing more than to tell you that we are thinking about it. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to the statistics given on the male population and he underlined the fact that if the position is as it is given in the report it is something for concern to all thinking people of the Transkei , and when I comment on that I would also connect it to another remark he made about the social welfare services given to some people . All I can say , with all earnestness , is that this is a matter on which we must think, for the simple reason that it is not uncommon to move about certain areas and to see men with fine bodies and strong indeed , but covered in their blankets and sitting next to their kraals watching the sun rise and the sun set and we are happy therefore that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was not prepared at all to secure any political advantage as far as that truth is concerned . The truth is this- no nation can ever hope to go ahead when people do not know, or do not accept, the fact that they can only live and continue to live if they work. In fact, it is considered as something very disastrous for people who are healthy and strong to expect people to dole out for them like Father Christmas , and therefore we are more than happy that the hon. leader is with us in this - that although the Government will
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of sex. You referred, Sir , to conditions of work in certain places which conditions , perhaps , may To use your be responsible for desertions. words , when the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of the Interior had had enough of a jolly holiday they did go as a matter of concern to visit the places of work to look at conditions there, and what was interesting was that in many places we visited we found that the conditions had improved tremendously , and food and diet I must admit was very commendable , but I would be the last person to say there are no places which should give cause for concern. However, you will agree , Sir, that here we are handling a very delicate matter . People leave the Transkei under abject circumstances , they go to look for work in the Republic , and if we help them we can only do it by negotiations with the employer and point out that such- and - such ought to be improved since it is a matter dealing with human beings . I referred to it as something delicate because , as you know, under present conditions and circumstances the people who go to work in these places do not only come from the Transkei, but from all over the Republic and Malawi , Lesotho , Botswana , and ifwe become too choosy and too demanding it is easy for those employers to give preference to people from other areas. All I can assure you of is that the matter, wherever possible , was handled , and very amicably too, but we were satisfied and we can only say that we must negotiate with the employers and the Republican Government. The same thing applies to the question of wages . I can remember as vividly as if it were this morning, whenever we got to a factory the first question the hon. the Chief Minister asked was : How much do you pay these people ? But, Sir , you will agree with us again that it is something of concern to everybody. We have certain hurdles and we can only negotiate. There are certain Acts which deal with this and as far as those Acts are concerned we have no control over them, but can only negotiate.
go out of its way to do everything possible for the people , this is the truth and this must not be allowed to continue . Sir, there was also reference to the establishment of a training centre for midwives at the Umtata Hospital. To continue the style I have adopted from you, Sir, here again you were not attacking anybody, but were making the observation of any thinking man. This is a matter again which is occupying the minds of the Cabinet at present, especially as of late you will have heard there are certain large hospitals being built in the country and the fact that nothing has been said about the Transkei is something we are concerned about. However , I can go no further at present. We were also happy to hear the reference you made to the establishment of clinics. You will agree with us that it is a matter that is also worrying us but there are these hurdles before us , especially as far as the establishment of hospitals is concerned. Every aspect of that matter has to be handled with the Republican Government and the Provincial Administration and at times also with the missionary bodies. It is the intention of the Government through my department to build as many clinics as possible and your remarks were very favourable, especially if one takes consideration of the social and health conditions in the Transkei . All you do is to cross one river and get to another , and you will find people getting water from where the pigs have been doing whatever they want to do and the cattle have been standing, and what have you. Health amenities are very scarce and it is something that must give concern to all thinking people. Sir , I may as well tell you I was travelling once with a man from Bechuanaland and he said to me : "I have been travelling around but I have seen no toilet facilities in your area. Where do people help themselves ?" You know the consequences of that - the little kids who die whilst they are infants, cases of enteric , gastric enteritis and what have you, and the army of tapeworms which attacks the kids and people right up to grey- heads ; but some people have had those things for so long that they think it is the correct thing. So your remarks have been noted and these matters will be investigated . You referred to the matter of salary scales and, in particular, the discrimination which is unfortunately on the people of fair sex. You know that some of the members of the Cabinet (in fact, almost all) have come out to agree with you on a personal note , so I want to assure you that that is something which will be considered by the Cabinet, but it involves other departments as well . In fact, the last word would not come from my dpeartment but from another department. There is this point, Sir , which is perfectly well taken too · if we do not want discrimination on the ground of colour , we do not want discrimination on the ground of religion; we do not want discrimination on the ground of race. How dare we agree with discrimination on the ground of sex then? We agree with you and perhaps we will have a chance to put our house in order . As a young State we need not follow other states , especially if they are wrong. It is on record that one of the reasons for the greatness of America is that they decided from the days of the Pilgrim Fathers that there would be no discrimination whatsoever on the grounds
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Is the Government not placed at a disadvantage by reason of the fact that it has to pay this R1 attestation fee ? Is there not a reaction by the employer to this attestation fee ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Not to our knowledge . Here is more information as far as these desertions are concerned . It must be admitted (I don't think it admits of any debate) that there are people who run away as a result of bad conditions where they are working, but it was also surprising to find that the people who usually desert are the people who are the white - collar fellows. It was also discovered that they also disappear in the locations . There are statistics to show that. So it is also another problem that we discovered that people who have got fine jobs get to these urban areas but, perhaps as a result of the bright lights of the city, they just disappear into the crowd . We have had cases of that. Gentlemen, I think in fairness to you, let me propose the tea adjournement.
MR. GUZANA : No, Mr. Chairman, we are going to oppose that. We have already missed 183.
We shall adjourn now to come back our tea. at 4.30 and then adjourn again at 4.45. Let the hon. Minister rather finish his address and then we can adjourn.
know. I am making bold to say that on the whole my department is satisfied that the best has been achieved, and it could have been a surprise to anybody if there were mishaps here and there. You have referred to the likelihood of some bye-elections as a result of potential contents of some coffins . Whether that happens or not, the Government through the department will have done everything to see to it that the contesting That is all I can say at parties are satisfied. this stage. At any rate we must be satisfied with one thing - the general election was held , the parties went to the people , the people gave the verdict and I am not going to accept the inference that perhaps , although we say the voice of the people is the voice of God , there was the other man speaking somewhere . To conclude, Mr. Chairman, let me say that I consider there has been a little bit of confusion, although it was said in a different manner to what I am going to say . Mr. Chairman, I made reference to this in the no confidence debate and I would like to repeat it. I sometimes put myself in the position of an ordinary, unsuspecting citizen of the Transkei and if somebody comes to canvass me and says I must vote for him because he stands four-square for multi- racialism , I think what my reaction would be . In the meantime it is common knowledge that almost every day some people are going back into the Republic and there are certain laws which put those people above me , and it is inthe Constitution which is sacrosanct that I will not enjoy the same privileges as they do. At the same time, even if they were to remain in this infant state which is only one-ninth of the Cape (not even of South Africa) , if they remained they would be in a privileged position. At the same time , whenever I leave the Transkei and meet a Zulu or a Venda or someone from the other side of Rustenberg or from the Ciskei , they envy me the position I hold in the Transkei. They say to me : These people whose position is privileged - stay with them in the future . The irony of the whole situation, gentlemen, is that the position of the Transkei is envied by everyone in the other lands , but the sons of the Transkei are fighting it. (Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, Mr. Chairman, that is not according to the rules . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: adjourn until 4.15 p.m.
We shall now
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I remember when I was making reference to some of the other departments which have to be honoured by whatever action may be taken by my department, I should have mentioned the tribal and regional authorities. It is common knowledge that whenever we handle matters in the Department of the Interior we have to be careful that we do not deal with a matter that may be brought , for instance , to the tribal authority and, in fact, even indirectly at times. Although it is the wish and the conviction of any government that health facilities must be given, the manner in which it is done is laid down in certain directions. I would like to make it clear , in case somebody may perhaps make a mistake , that the question of clinics is in fact the responsibility of the tribal authorities . It does appear that that was considered , but you did say as a result of that manner of dealing with the matter it has become a little cumbersome. Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer , before I conclude my speech, to the question of the general election held last year . The matter should, herhaps , have been left to the hands of one or two or three, and no others. You know that sometimes people will handle something that they do not understand and the same applies even in this House . Keep quiet and people will remain doubtful , but open your mouth and talk rubbish and people remove doubts about you. This Government, like any other government, will do everything and we will leave no stones unturned to see to it that whenever there is a general election there must be general satisfaction that everything was done well. Comparatively speaking, it is surprising to find that on the whole , with the first general election organised locally by the Transkei people, the Transkei is far ahead of nations in Central Africa , South America and , in fact, even in Europe. There is usually a lot of chaos , bloodletting, murder and what have you in some of those countries. That was not true of the Transkei and, Sir, your suggestion of symbols, let me say, is far behind our times . Just to illustrate what I mean, you will find that if you put a certain animal as a symbol it may have an anthropological aversion as far as a certain tribe is concerned. Let us say you put a crocodile for some Bakwenas somewhere as a symbol I wonder what would happen to you? That is a bad symbol as far as the Bakwenas are concerned. If you put a snake , I don't know what would happen with the Mpondomisi. In so saying I am trying to say it is something that has been left behind and it cannot be tried, especially as I say the Transkei people are far ahead of many nations whose.election systems I happen to
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The position is simply this , with all due respect, gentlemen: I repeat that what confuses an ordinary citizen of the Transkei is the way we talk to him when he is being told that whatever the circumstances and difficulties , at least here is a place where he can breathe . The last word is this · with all the persuasion and the sweet words which can be given to a man you respect and love , in fact I am always inclined to think we cannot really disagree politically. We can never disagree fundamentally. If we do , somebody is a fool. This is what I want to say in conclusion. These departments will move smoothly and freely. The Government will go ahead and what a day if at least, even if we differ on thirty matters , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would agree with us on one thing - that the Transkei shall be under the sun. I can assure you, Sir, posterity will give you an epitaph and on the stone shall be written
184.
year. Those who do not repay 50% of their loans by that date will be required to repay the full amounts they owe together with the interest that will accrue from the set date . It is therefore of the utmost importance that farmers should repay their 50 % share as soon as possible . Those farmers who have already repaid more than 50% of their loans will be credited with the amount in excess of the 50%, so that they will not be at a disadvantage to those who have only paid 50%.
"Knowledge" and then at the end " Guzana " and in between "Wisdom". A lot of things can be done and that is where I should like to end to invite you to stop playing with marbles and come to your senses. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the amendment is that Vote 4 be reduced by R3,200 in respect of the Minister's salary. MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , if I may make a suggestion, would it not be wiser if we start with the smaller reductions and end with the greater ? I am anticipating something which may be to the advantage of this House.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , honourable paramount chiefs and honourable members , I wish to advise the members of the Assembly that during my recent tour in the Transvaal with the hon. the Minister of the Interior, the following manufacturing firms in the Transvaal have , as a gesture of goodwill , made gifts to the Transkei Government - namely:-
MR. N. JAFTA: I second.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree?
bra dooW
THE MEMBERS : No.
Iscor, Van der Bijl Park, is sending us a ton of roofing iron;
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Then let us take the amendments one by one. I shall put the first one.
The Jupiter Wire Rope Company in Johannesburg has sent us approximately one hundred rolls of plain fencing wire ;
The first amendment was lost. Steward & Lloyds in Vereeniging has donated to us a small electric engine .
The second amendment was lost. The third amendment was lost..
It is intended to use these gifts as follows :The roofing iron to be used for roofing a secondary school in the Tsolo or Qumbu district where a large number of Iscor workers hail from . The fencing wire will be donated to the Qumanco Secondary School for fencing the school grounds . The small engine will be donated to a tribal authority where it can be beneficially used . I wish, Mr. Chairman, to express my appreciation publicly for these tokens of goodwill and move that a letter expressing the appreciation of the Transkei Government be written to the firms in question.
The sum of R5,018,000 in respect of Vote 4, Department of the Interior was passed to stand part of the Schedule . House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 14th May, 1969. WEDNESDAY, 14th MAY , 1969
TABLING OF DOCUMENTS
Prayers were read. THE CHIEF hon. members , to Motions Nos . session of the sembly.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and I lay upon the table the replies 1 , 5 and 6 adopted at the seventh first Transkei Legislative As-
ال THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY:- Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have this announcement to make :-
TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES ACT AMENDMENT BILL FIRST READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the first reading of the bill to amend the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 (Act No. 4 of 1965 ) I wish to request the Assembly to give permission in terms of the proviso to rule 98 (b) for the first and second readings of the bill to be proceeded with in only one official language . By the time we come to the committee stage of the bill we shall have had the other two official language copies from the printers .
Ploughing Scheme , 1968 - In my policy speech I will also refer to the hardship which resulted from last season's drought, and the fact that, although farmers accepted credit for the ploughing of their lands , hardly any crops were reaped at all . I am concerned about the position of these farmers and, considering that by the end of this year still larger stock losses will have been suffered , it has been decided in consultation with the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance to provide further relief to them. Farmers who last year received 100% credit to have their lands ploughed by tractor will now be required to repay only 50 % of their loans , provided they do so before the 31st July of this
Agreed to . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of a bill to amend 185.
development schemes . In this connection I have in mind especially the investigation of a big irrigation scheme in the St. Marks district.
the Transkei Authorities Act , 1965 (Act No. 4 of 1965) and I move that it be read a first time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman .
Also under sub-head B. the estimated expenditure is higher than in previous years . This sub-head deals with transport and the payment of subsistence allowances to officers .
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time .
The expansion of my department's establishment as pointed out under the previous sub- head brings about the increased expenditure under this sub-head. With more staff more work is being done, more material has to be transported by rail , and more officials require transport to carry out their duties . As a result of increased production by the Forestry branch alone an increased amount of R11,000 had to be provided . Every endeavour is made to keep the expenditure on this sub-head as low as possible but it stands to reason that increased work and increased productivity must bring about increased transport costs and under the circumstances the amount estimated for is reasonable and essential .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the bill will be read a second time on Monday, the 19th day of May, 1969 , or so soon thereafter. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House sit in committee of supply.
GOT THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to . House in Committee
The increased amount of R6,400 under subhead C. is mainly as a result of postage now being payable by the department where previously it was not the case. The amount is further increased for the same reasons as mentioned under sub-heads A and B, viz . increased activity requiring more telephones .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before delivering my policy speech to the House I wish first to refer briefly to my predecessor in office . In taking over the Department of Agriculture and Forestry from the hon. Mr. Madikizela of Bizana, I am in a position more than anybody else to judge his qualities as Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and to determine the value of the services he rendered to the Transkei. I wish to pay tribute to him for the loyal and devoted manner in which he devoted himself to the task. His wisdom and sound judgement, his sense of duty and responsibility towards the people ofthe Transkei will always stand to his credit. During his term of office he was either responsible for or associated with important developments in the Transkei . He fulfilled his task with dignity and honour. He was held in high esteem by all who came into contact with him , from Republican dignitaries , officials , overseas visitors , to the He most junior official in his department.
Printing, Advertisements and Publications provided under sub-head D. remains unchanged as it is not so directly influenced by the increased volume of work. A relatively small increase is shown under sub-head E. Although it is difficult to estimate accurately for item 1. it has been found that the amount provided for in the past was inadequate . The increase of item 1. to provide for medical and hospital expenses constitutes the only noteworthy change under this sub - head. The increased provision under sub- head Fis relatively small . Of the total amount estimated , R211,900 is required for additional equipment and R106,600 is intended to buy replacements for items that have become unserviceable .
enjoyed the goodwill and loyalty of his whole department and he laid under difficult circumstances the sound foundations on which I am now able to build . He is a true and worthy son of the Transkei . The Transkei Government and I, in particular , offer him our appreciation for a task well done . Building on his good work I now wish to deal with Vote 5 of the estimates before you .
Additional equipment is required by the forestry branch amongst others to provide a kiln at Mount Ayliff where a logmill will be erected soon, to complete the installation of pressure cylinders at the creosote treating plant, to purchase a logmill resaw for the bandsawmill in order to increase its capacity; a motor grader in order to cope with the increased work on road maintenance in plantations , additional fire -fighting equipment and the purchase of a tractor for the creosoting plant in order to handle the increased tempo of production.
POLICY STATEMENT BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY You will notice that Sub- head A provides for a substantially bigger sum than last year. About half of the estimated increase represents normal salary increments , the payment of vacation saving bonuses , promotion of officials and the replacement of seconded officials .
The Agricultural branch requires R30,000 for the purchase of tractors and other equipment to cope with the cultivation of land under the Qamata irrigation scheme , R7,200 to purchase standby tractors to overcome the serious losses as a result of equipment sometimes being out of
The other fifty percent is earmarked for expenditure in connection with the investigation of 186 .
This is Item 3 shows a marked increase. hoped developmen encouraging it is and a very t that farmers will make full use of this service . In this connection I again wish to refer to the valuable assistance rendered by the South African Wool Board who this year has allocated R2,500 to the department for the purchase of rams.
commission for long periods and R10,000 for overhead irrigation at the Lambasi tea project. The Engineering branch requires various items the most important being caravans to house workmen, a dewatering pump, tractor trailers for transporting materials on the Qamata irrigation scheme, a stone crusher and machinery and equipment for the development of smaller irrigation schemes.
The eradication of noxious weeds is gradually taking on bigger proportions . More attention is being given to the eradication of jointed cactus and the increased provision under item 4 will further be required for the combating of termites which are causing severe damage in certain areas.
Sub-head G. provides for the expenditure at Tsolo Agricultural College, and extension material for the Agricultural and Veterinary branches . In this regard provision has been made for a film unit that will be used in the administrative areas in an effort to improve agricultural methods.
More provision is also made under item 5 in anticipation of an acceleration in the tempo of planning. The importance of this work cannot be over-emphasised. The serious droughts we experienced have clearly indicated the value of planning. In the past it has repeatedly been explained that this work is basic to agricultural development and provides the best defence against drought.
Under this sub-head falls the expenditure in connection with special training courses which are conducted every year in order to equip officials better for their tasks . During this year refresher courses and special short courses will again be conducted for forestry and agricultural officials. With the assistance of the Wool Board a very thorough course will be conducted in wool production and as from July this year my department will undertake the training of stock inspectors which previously took place at Fort Cox in the Ciskei. I wish to place on record the appreciation of my department to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development for the good services they have rendered in this regard in the past. I have satisfied myself that the course which will be conducted at Tsolo Agricultural College is of a high standard and will prepare the students for greater responsibilities and more advanced work.
I wish to repeat it to this house that this work must always receive high priority and every member of the assembly should use his influence to persuade the people to have their areas planned as soon as possible. The bigger amount provided for under item 6 is directly as a result of the increased expenditure under item 5 . Item 7 is slightly reduced because it was over-estimated for in the past. Item 8 is new. This expenditure has become necessary because of the disastrous summer season we have just experienced . Last year a big feeding scheme was organised on account of the Annual Husbandry Improvement account. The scheme was a success and thousands of animals were saved as a result. This year the position is still worse than last year . The late rains have to some extent alleviated the position but they came too late to prevent abnormal losses again during the winter which is on hand . To reduce stock losses as far as possible a quarter of a million rand will be spent on the purchase It is of course realized of feed for cattle . that a limited number of cattle can be fed.
I consider sub-head H which deals with Agricultural planning and development of very special importance . Adequate provision was made in the past for the improvement and maintenance of livestock. I foresee however that this item will increase in future as the people become more aware of the importance of the improved quality in livestock. Under item 2 the expenditure shows a marked increase . This can be largely attributed to the fact that the work on the projects , such as the tea project at Lambasi , has been accelerated as a result of an improved staff position. The work on the coffee and tea projects is progres-
We know that some cattle will still perish form poverty. We can only attempt to save as many as is practically possible.
sing very favourably and there is every reason to be optimistic about the outcome of it. If no unforeseen problems are encountered the processing of tea should be well in hand by this time next year. A new area for tea is also being developed at Majola inthe Port St. Johns district. It is anticipated that in the near future the Xhosa Development Corporation will start also with the decortication of Phormium tenax in the Lusikisiki district. Valuable work is also done with the development of nuts in the Port St. Johns district and this may add a new valuable product which farmers may plant to improve their income.
My department can only undertake a limited organisation. The people will therefore have to understand that they should not worry us about their personal interests . A scheme has been organised and if we were to divert from it to meet numerous representations then it will not be possible to derive the maximum benefits from the scheme for the whole territory . In this regard I wish to bring to your notice certain aspects of the consequences of the drought. One disturbing factor is the imbalance between large stock and small stock which has
187 .
resulted. The number of small stock has increased whilst the number of large stock has decreased. This is already having a discernible influence on the natural grazing. This phenomenon is most marked in the unplanned areas . Because the veld can no more support the original numbers of cattle , the short and dry condiThe sheep numbers are tions favour sheep . increasing and their damaging effect is noticeable everywhere in the unplanned areas. The veld is recovering more slowly and the quality is fast deteriorating. In some areas there are more weeds than grass . The position will have to be watched carefully and it may become necessary to take steps to rectify the state of affairs . The normal way of counteracting this dangerous tendency would be for every administrative area to be planned and then to practise proper grazing control.
if those which have just recently been formed prove that the members are not prepared to accept the responsibilities which go with them . I wish it to be clearly understood that the department is only too willing to support and assist the farmers but at some time there should be an indication at least that the people are prepared to contribute some effort of their own. These special efforts to alleviate the effects of the drought, together with the part my department plays in the employment scheme for drought relief conducted by the Department of the Interior, have of course a very serious effect on the work of my department. It is virtually impossible for the department to maintain its normal functions and this will of necessity retard progress . I am for example concerned about the fact that planning is not progressing as fast as it should.
I also wish to refer briefly to the ploughing scheme which was conducted by the department last year . It is a great pity that the drought lasted for such a long period. Great benefit would have resulted if only the rains had come earlier. Unfortunately the benefits were limited because the rains came too late. This coming season it is the intention to assist farmers again by providing credit for tractor ploughing. The credit will be provided by the Transkei Reserve and Development Fund which also provided the necessary credit last year . Again it will not be possible to assist all the farmers in the Transkei . The credit is really intended for those farmers who have lost so many cattle that it will be impossible for them to do any any ploughing on their own. For this reason the areas in which credit will be provided
Partly this is because my officials are too occupied with duties like relief schemes . However, the best way to avert the need for relief schemes is to plan as fast as possible and to improve the standards of farming. I regret to have to admit that over the last number of years planning shows a declining tendency and if this cannot be reversed the future of agriculture in the territory will be seriously endangered. You will notice a very sharp increase in the estimated expenditure under sub-head J. This is mainly because of the policy now being applied to provide much better water supplies in planned areas. For this purpose alone R250,000 is set aside , and I feel confident that it will be welcomed by all .
for tractor ploughing will be determined by the losses of cattle as a result of the drought in the different areas .
Under Sub-head K. the position remains much the same as last year. This branch of the department has rendered valuable service during the past year and I would like to invite farmers who experience health problems with their stock and where serious outbreaks of diseases occur to consult my department in order to have their problems solved.
It should be remembered that we can only do as much as is possible . People who wish to plough for cash are of course at liberty to make their own arrangements . These ploughing schemes are of course relief measures and will not be provided departmentally once conditions have returned to normal .
The increased provision under sub-head Lis relatively small and the greater portion of the increased expenditure is brought about by increased wages for labourers . The expenditure is further increased by the gradual expansion of the plantations according to the planting programme.
Reference must also be made to the cooperative movement. It is most unfortunate that the societies had to contend with such unfavourable seasons right from the start. On the other hand they were very fortunate to obtain credit facilities from the Transkei Reserve and Development Fund. It has come to my notice that many members of the co-operative societies regard their responsibilities towards these bodies in an irresponsible light. It should be remembered that these bodies are private bodies and not government institutions . If members do not pay their dues and if they do not support their own organisations nobody else will do it for them . In their own interest it is essential that they should understand that these societies belong to them, they are responsible for their progress and only loyal support by the members can prevent their failure . People clamour every day for the registration of new co-operative societies but this cannot be lightly agreed to
Under sub-head M. the position is very similar to that under sub-head L. Apart from increased wages the greater expenditure is in accordance with the higher production. More creosote will be required this year as last year only a little was required because large surpluses were carried forward from the previous year. This partly explains why this year The preservation more funds are required. plant has now been modernised and will have a 50% higher capacity. The forestry industry is developing very satisfactorily and it can be stated that our plantations compare well with the standards found 188.
themselves to find out whether there are no ways of inviting agricultural experts from outside the bounds of the Transkei in order to bring their knowledge to improve conditions inthe Transkei. (Interjections ) We can invite these experts from Canada, from Australia and all over to give this assistance to the Transkei. It has been mentioned that there will be an effort to provide an irrigation scheme and because of the drought we are experiencing this is a very important measure on the part of the Government. Fortunately , our land is among those which do not experience the drying up of the rivers . In this connection we ought to learn from other countries. I refer to a trip one might take to
elsewhere. It is a profitable undertaking for the Transkei and above all it is an important source of employment. Under sub-head N. I wish to reiterate that it is of great importance that we preserve our natural life and for this reason it is necessary to fence in some of the forest reserves . In time to come these areas may be of value also as a source of income from tourism . As for the extermination of vermin the department has again had a successful year and I am confident that the electorate will welcome the expenditure for this purpose.
Cape Town, going through the Karroo areas where you will find extensive cultivation of land under lucerne. This is one of the things often overlooked by the Bantu farmer - that his stock cannot survive when no feed has been provided over the lean periods of the year. Also on the way to Cape Town you will find there are extensive lands planted with fruit trees of all descriptions , with the express purpose offeeding their people in the manner that we note in a number of our cafés which are selling the produce from these areas . This is one of the things which should be specially noted. Ifwe go through the areas mentioned you will find there is a railway line running through in order to enable the producers to collect their fruit and transport it to the areas where it is sold . I have this in mind when I say we must not regard every African as a potential farmer. I wish immediate steps could be taken to enable those who are potential farmers to have more land and to produce more for the benefit of the people of the Transkei . (Interjections) I am aware that there are difficulties in the way of such projects, but these things can be achieved when people discuss them . The people who have no special interest in agricultural projects must be provided with other means of earning a livelihood. While I am on this head , it will be neces-
Mr. Chairman and Honourable members this should leave no doubt in your minds that the funds asked for by my department are in the interests of everybody in the Transkei and for services that must be provided , and I move that vote 5 be approved by this Committee. MR. E.G. SIHELE : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to reply to the speech by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . For the last few years we have had these policy speeches read to us and there has always been a request that when we review the policy speech of the Department of Agriculture we must leave out political issues because these speeches are related to the present needs of the people. I can say clearly that the Transkei is one of the poorest countries and there are many reasons for this poverty. One of them is the small portion of land given to each individual in the rural areas , which I think is on the average three morgen per person. Further , these arable allotments given to the people are already exhausted and because of the limited area given it is difficult for them to practise crop rotation. The general habit of allowing stock to run free on these plots makes it impossible to practise modern farming methods.
sary to have large industries set up within the country, if only you would find entrepreneurs from outside to provide these factories so that the people can find work. The loss of stock through drought and hunger is something we are acquainted with, but we know it is increasing. We regard our large stock as our bank, and this means we are gradually becoming poorer and poorer . Taking the year 1968 , it will be noted that the people of the Transkei suffered a loss to the extent of R7,616,712. This is a normal thing , year in, year out, but during the year 1969 in a period of only six months we have suffered a loss of R8,609,040 . If one were to take special note of the difficulties we often have to face , with winter approaching it is possible that this figure may be doubled , which means a loss of approximately R17 million.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who is responsible for the stock running on the lands ? Is it the Department of Agriculture ? The people refuse to fence - that is the reason. MR. JAFTA: The people who ought to provide labour on these plots are usually away at work centres in the Republic. They leave their maimed and sick and the womenfolk to look after the There are people , however, who will lands. not apply themselves to these agricultural projects, even though they are healthy enough to do so. The difficulty in the Transkei is that every person is regarded as a potential farmer and this is not found in other countries and among other peoples. Sometimes we take an individual to be a farmer when he has never shown any interest in agriculture. It is therefore necessary that ways and means be investigated as to how we can cure this state of affairs . We are constantly faced with famine , year in and year out in the Transkei, whereas it is often maintained that the country is very fertile. I would put it to the hon. the Chief Minister and the Cabinet to discuss the matter amongst
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the hon. member cannot get the same indulgence as was granted to other members who assumed the position of being deputy leaders of the Opposition, by giving him more time. I move accordingly. 189.
THE second.
MINISTER
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with hard times , times of drought, and we must pay tribute to the Department of Agriculture for giving the required assistance during these times of hardship so that the people on the whole should be able to live - except perhaps those people who remain at the railway station at Ndabakazi. ( Laughter ) This means that difficulties have been overcome in the Transkei through the assistance of the Agricultural Department. This department should not be blamed for the recurrence of the drought and yet we are still able to reap some mealies , except those who stay at Ndabakazi who have not seen that happening. If you only took the trouble to go through the Transkei to see where these tractors are ploughing you would realise how they have assisted the people . We have been told this morning that we will only pay 50 per cent of the cost. I am sorry that the hon. member omitted to pay tribute in connection with that matter of assistance , and the information given to us in connection with the repayment. It is our desire that this should be placed on record , that this House is thankful to the Government for making such an allowance in cash. I think all those who are interested in agriculture will be most grateful . I wish to make reference to what the last speaker said. The hon. member stated that people have very small arable allotments . I concur , but he omitted to tell the House where extra land will be obtained . He also stated that those people who have no interest in farming should not be given lands , but the hon. member has failed to indicate the demarcation between those who can plough their lands and those who cannot make use of their land . The people whom he has come to represent, however , have no other means of livelihood but their arable allotments , so that when we get back home we should be able to tell the people that So-and- So says they should not be given lands to plough. I know the last speaker would dispute that . He further suggested that the Government should plant maize , fruit and vegetables extensively . Does he know how the crops would be distributed to the people - whether they will be sold or whether they will be made available gratis ? I would personally refuse to allow such crops to be sown because the land would be my own property. I know what alternative measures the Government would take against those people who would refuse to sell crops. The Government would immediately force such people to go to labour centres . Does the last speaker think the Government should force people to go to labour centres? I can see by looking at the clock that most of the members of the House are not listening to what I say. (Laughter) There is nothing else we can say , except to be thankful to the Department of Agriculture for what it has done for us. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. MR. JAFTA : I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Even the Europeans in this country experience difficulties and hardships in regard to agriculture , so much so that quite a number of European farmers are beginning to give up farming, with the exception of a few who remain. Despite what I have said , however , we realise that farming is a most important industry and we cannot leave it out altogether. Reference has been made to tea and coffee-growing and we were informed these are improving; similarly, our plantations and forests and the phor mium tenax project are progressing. I would like to put it forward, however, that efforts should be made to improve the growing of mealies in certain suitable areas within the Transkei where it can be shown that within a specified area it is possible to produce a certain quantity of maize. As regards wheat-growing , too , we would like to see certain projects undertaken , also fruit-growing and horticultural experiments , because these are the requirements ofthe people even more than tea and coffee. You will not hear a person crying for tea , but we are constantly hearing of people wanting maize and other Our grazing such food for their children. areas are not sufficient to support our stock because they are not well looked after , therefore their carrying capacity is very small. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : should be done ? Stock limitation?
What
MR . JAFTA: There are people who set these grazing areas on fire because they do not care enough about them . We would like the hon. Minister to pay special attention to such things . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : members must also talk to the people.
And the
MR. JAFTA: We would also ask the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to pay special attention to the noxious weeds which are becoming quite common. These things cause great destruction to our grazing areas and they have a bad effect on the wool of our sheep. It is for that reason, therefore , that I maintain that this Department of Agriculture should not be mixed up with political issues , because it is concerned with the very life of the people . MR . E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy statement by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . Some people do not know anything about agriculture . We have been dealing with agriculture in the Transkeian Territories over a very long period. We were assisted by the Tsolo School of Agriculture where many of us obtained We know how agriculture was pertraining . formed about 40 years ago in the manner described by the hon. Mr. Mnyani . He still maintains that we should broadcast our mealies when planting, as though we are feeding poultry. We have come to the present day and we now meet
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I should like to bring this to the notice of members during the lunch break. I wonder if it would not be economical on time if we get the hon. Mr. Kutu to withdraw his amendment in favour of the amendment by the hon. Mr. Jafta on the reduction of the Minister's salary, because the hon. Mr. Jafta's amendment is an umbrella amendment which would cover the 190.
but they do not do so as they maintain the ranger is employed by the agricultural officers . If we were not so fortunate as to have the Secretary we have in this department , I am sure the department would have collapsed by now. In some areas the people are removed a distance of four miles from their arable plots , and when I inquired into this I was told that they would have special places for their houses and oxen , and that is not the general custom in the life of the people. I shall now refer to co- operative Unfortunately, the people who join societies. these co-operative societies now find themselves liable to certain fees , although they were not previously informed about these fees . If these people suffer a setback in their crops either from hail or drought, they should be given an extension of time to pay their dues. As a result of bringing the villages together, sanitation is very much lacking and people suffer from diseases on that account. We cannot stop it because it is according to Government policy that the people should come together in villages.
whole Vote , and then the debate would centre round that amendment. MR . JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, I withdraw my amendment in favour of the hon. Mr. Kutu's , with the permission of the House.
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture , was resumed. MR. W.C. SINGATA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the hon. Mr. Jafta. This scheme was wrong from the very beginning because originally we had demonstration plots instead of these contour strips , and that means that the scheme was wrong from the very outset. I would also like to state that the remuneration of third-grade employees is very low and it would be advisable to have no third-grade employees in this department. The promotion of officers to take the posts now occupied by European officers is not being carried out fully and consistently, and it makes it impossible for the people carrying out the spadework to be trustworthy. It would be better if they were paid four-fifths of the salaries paid to senior officers . A person whose wage is low cannot be trusted to do the work very satisfactorily. It also happens that the people employed as rangers usually come ffrom a different area from the area where they are employed, and they are in danger of being molested by the local people , especially as they have no way of protecting their own lives against such molestation. In Tsolo area some of the rangers at St. Cuthbert's have already been assaulted and have been admitted to hospital. On that account it cannot be expected that we will encourage people to accept this rehabilitation when there are no protective measures taken in regard to these employees . The people who do not accept the suggestions and demonstrations of agricultural officers are usually sent to the magistrate to be threatened for not carrying out these things . We would like this scheme to be carried out on the same lines as when people were first taught modern agricultural methods of sowing in rows , without any compulsion. People are removed from suitable rehabilitated areas which are well watered , and they are forced to leave these areas against their will. As regards rehabilitation there is a great deal of wastage . In areas such as Port St. John's , which is a very stony area, instead of the fence standard being put in about three feet deep they cut the standard at the top and put it in just about a foot deep , with the consequence that the whole fence usually collapses , especially in the stony areas. The rangers now employed by the Government, instead of by the people , are subordinate to the authority of the agricultural officers , consequently there is misunderstanding and hatred between the headmen and the rangers . The ranger employed as such ought to receive the co-operation and assistance of the local people,
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Hon. member , do you say the Government must build your kraals now? MR. SINGATA : Some people are licensed to sell and buy stock, and if they are stopped by the stock inspectors , what steps does the Government intend taking to come to their assistance ? CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to be able to speak after that old man who has been speaking. He succeeded in saying nothing . We were together right from the time of the Bunga, but I do not know what has gone wrong with him now. I want to make one request - that we should treat these agricultural matters in a similar way to the way we treated education, because in education we feed the brain and in agriculture we feed the stomach in order to prevent house -breaking and theft, because a starving person is compelled to steal . Before my time is up I would like to deal with rehabilitation. In the district of Umzimkulu three - quarters of the district has been rehabilitated and only a quarter has not as yet been rehabilitated . Even the remaining quarter will be rehabilitated next year. We started rehabilitation , particularly myself, when we went to Paramount Chief Victor Poto's place and were shown the rehabilitated area there . I was one of the chiefs who objected to rehabilitation and on my return home I preached rehabilitation to the people , telling them what I had seen . We in Umzimkulu are now progressive because of rehabilitation. These very idiots , when canvassing for votes , tel the people that they do not like rehabilitation. They tell the people that if their land is rehabilitated their That is how they get stock will be reduced. their seats in the Legislative Assembly. They do not know that that other year we stopped castrating bulls and now the Government has allowed farmers to breed stock as they like . What can we do with backward people ? They are not only backward but so poor they cannot even afford to buy a goat. ( Interjections )
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 191 .
Order , please .
CHIEF JOZANA : I must make some remarks about my hon. friend who has said some funny things , because I know something about agriculture . He said we must broadcast out seed in the lands. How can anyone who is a reasonable man revert to that old system of sowing by broadcasting the seed ? I want to tell him, in order to enlighten him, that he should practise contouring the land . You will only expect those people who buy samp and mealie- meal from the stores to speak about agriculture as these people have done , because they know nothing about agriculture . It is a most disgraceful thing to see a huge man riding a very thin horse and the shambok this man uses to drive this poor horse is as thick as my body. I have witnessed this in Umtata and such people should be charged with cruelty to animals . A time will come when Umzimkulu wil refuse to accept the scrub animals you send there for grazing. (Laughter) As you refuse to have your locations rehabilitated you will not be allowed to take your scrub animals to graze in our area. (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 19th May, 1969 .
MONDAY, 19th MAY, 1969 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in accordance with the proviso to section 12 (4) of Proclamation R.334 of 1963, I lay upon the table a return reflecting the particulars of all persons appointed to posts higher than the entry grades of the Government Service since the commencement of the preceding ordinary session of the Legislative Assembly. NOTICE OF BILLS THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 20th May, 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the establishment of Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' courts in regional authority areas and for the appointment of additional Bantu Affairs Commissioners in such areas.
Order, please .
CHIEF JOZANA: It is these very people who come from unrehabilitated areas who own these scrub animals , cattle and horses . If you would like to know, an ox at Umzimkulu is valued at R140 and R200 , whereas an ox from Engcobo area is valued at only R6 . We should come to an agreement and not criticize rehabilitation. The people must be told the truth. It is useless to take a beast which is as big as a goat to a stock sale . I own tractors and I am a farmer. No sensible man who owns a tractor would be prepared to plough for a man who lives in an unrehabilitated area because these people will ask a man who owns such a tractor to go and plough lands which are full of dongas and as a result the tractor gets broken and the landowner will not be worried at all because he knows nothing about tractors . I encourage the use of tractors in rehabilitated areas . How long must we have patience and endurance in connection with these people who refuse to have their areas rehabilitated? (Interjections) It means that the hon. the Minister of Finance will find himself in debt if he interests himself in helping people who do not know anything about agriculture . How I wish that those people who stay in urban areas would stop howling , because they know nothing about farming or ploughing . These people who own buses know nothing about ploughing, so they must keep quiet. One hon. member raised a question as to where they will get their toilets when they have fenced their area. This man is senseless because he can put up his own toilet. In our area one of the instructions was that each headman in a rehabilitated area should see that a toilet is put up for each home . You can imagine the pigs from which they eat pork are not in enclosed areas and they move freely over the country.
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I move that we go into committee of supply on this item. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee
we
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , shall first ask the hon. the Minister of
Agriculture to move his amendment, please. MR. K.M. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am advised that the House when it adjourned on Wednesday was still discussing the policy statement by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and I notice now that the Chair is requesting the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to move his amendment before we have settled with the principles embodied in his policy statement . Mr. Chairman , I think, if you will agree with me , you will grant the members of this House the indulgence to discuss this policy speech because it relates to a fundamental department in the Transkei , dealing with the management of the soil and its potential productivity. This side of the House is aware of the fact that it seeks to have this stage finished on or before Wednesday, and we are mindful of that.
The debate was adjourned . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, may I point out that this amendment really does not affect the policy. It only helps to change one item to another item, owing to
House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress . 192.
certain circumstances which developed after the bill was tabled.
department, including cartage even by the railways. As a result of the complete crop failure in some areas , the matter of subsidization of ploughing services has become inevitable . For those reasons it was therefore decided to reduce the feeding scheme and to transfer part of the funds to sub- head H , item 3, to provide for assistance to farmers who have suffered so much from the drought and who would find it extremely difficult to repay their debt to the Government. I believe that by providing this relief it will be possible for them to produce a better crop in the coming season, hence I move accordingly.
MR. GUZANA : Is it correct to move an amendment to increase an item in a financial bill? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You don't increase overall. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this does not change the total amount. It only changes from one sub-head to another sub-head. It decreases one way and increases by the same amount in another sub-head.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I refer to rule 142. "An amendment to increase a Vote whether in respect of any sub-item , item , sub-head or of the Vote itself shall be ruled out of order by the Chairman or Deputy Chairman. " THE CHIEF MINISTER : increased.
I second ,
Mr. Chairman , may the MR. GUZANA : House deliberate on that amendment?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am considering it, hon. member .
The Vote is not
MR. H. MAFUKULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall not deviate from the remarks of the hon. Mr. Jafta , who said in his speech that the Government still has a long way to cover, especially as regards the fact that the hon. Minister has just taken up office . It is certainly true that we are referring this to a person who has not faced the same difficulties that we have faced during the past years . It would perhaps have been more profitable to have referred this to the hon. Mr. Madikizela. Let me mention these few facts which affect the people in the outside world. Referring to the rehabilitation programme , especially as regards our area of Ngqeleni where we experience some painful things, when the rehabilitation scheme was first preached to the people the officers of the time said if we accepted rehabilitation our children would be able to attend school properly . The parents would also be able to go to work centres without difficulty because it is the stock which keeps children away from school and the parents likewise , who are interested in the welfare and education of their children, are therefore compelled to herd their own stock. Mr. Chairman, may I therefore mention to you what is happening in our area. The scheme has been put into effect since the people have acceptedit. They have put up six - stranded wire and there are no water dams inside these fenced areas. This proves to us that the scheme is not quite complete. Stock is able to go through these fences , the gates are broken and they are not repaired. This shows that the scheme has not been very helpful because the parents , as well as the children, still have to look after the stock. We think this is a very important matter which affects the people. The reason why we have lost so much stock is due to the fact that we have no dams. We agree that there has been a drought but we have not had any water . We appeal to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , therefore , to pay special attention to this aspect. I will go on to another matter. The present times are times of progress and civilization but we feel that agriculture is lagging behind. Formerly we had farmers ' associations in these areas , although they were never very strong organisations . Instead of
MR. GUZANA : The rule says whether in respect of any sub-item , item, sub- head or of the Vote itself. THE CHIEF MINISTER : But it says " an amendment to increase a Vote ..." THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What about rule 139? MR. GUZANA : I am doubtful about the interpretation of that, Mr. Chairman. However, the matter is in your hands . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. Minister should include his amendment in the bill by reading his amendment, because it is part of the bill. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, with hour leave I move: "That Vote 5, Sub-head H, Item 8, be reduced by R250,000 and that Item 3 under the same sub-head be increased by R250,000 ; and that the words ' including subsidisation of ploughing ' be inserted in brackets after the word 'farmers ' under Item 3." As the additional words imply, Mr. Chairman, the object is to provide funds to subsidize farmers for the ploughing of their lands . At the time of drawing up the estimates , it was still expected that a reasonable crop would be reaped by the farmers and the necessity of subsidization was at the time not yet an established fact. It was clear then, however, that the grazing during winter would not be able to support the livestock population in the areas It most seriously affected by the drought. was also desirable to supply additional feeding in any event, in order to ensure that natural increase be stimulated to compensate for heavy losses during 1968. Subsequently it has become clear that it will not be possible to procure the quantities of fodder required for such a big feeding scheme. The organisation of such a vast feeding scheme would also place an almost impossible burden on the organisation of the
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extended to other similar areas , because they have voluntarily accepted this scheme . If this is done , those areas which have not accepted rehabilitation will be attracted to accept the scheme when they realise what is being done in the areas which have accepted rehabilitation. Further , the officers who go round preaching rehabilitation must agree with the chiefs and headmen because the chiefs are often regarded as selling the rights of people , and if an agricultural officer wants to have a public meeting it is proper that he should first communicate with the head of the area so that the chiefs will be able to present the whole scheme in a proper light to their people. If the officer arrives at a meeting and addresses it , then the people feel the chief should not say anything at that meeting, seeing there is no compulsion in the acceptance of this scheme , and we would therefore like the heads of authorities to be made acquainted with it before public meetings are held. I come now to the point that we still require agricultural officers in the reserves to teach people about agriculture , because just at a time when the people were taking an interest in agriculture , the officers were told to discontinue . By this I mean that an agricultural officer should have certain areas which he himself should plough and in that way demonstrate to the people. To go further, in the Lusikisiki area we have portions of land under natural forest and bush and the people are not very happy as regards the employees who look after these forests . We have the government plantations in a certain area and next door there is a grazing area, and should stock trespass on to the forest area it is impounded . The appeal from this House is that the agricultural officers , especially those in charge of the forests , should not be so hard on the people . Anyone found in the forest area with his dogs is immediately charged and if he cuts off a single twig or a stick the forest guards arrest him . We are appealing to you to speak to the forest guards and to ask them to be more considerate . In regard to the Lambasi area, we would ask that the wages of the labourers should be looked into . I would like now to refer to what the Opposition member said. I know we are two different parties in this House and whatever the appeal is from the electorate it should be referred to the Government side . I would like you to remember that when we bring complaints we are not attacking the Government. That makes us think that you regard us as fools. In these words then, Mr. Chairman, I support very strongly the policy speech of the hon. Minister and I appeal to the Opposition members also to support it.
these making the progress they should have done , they are gradually becoming poorer and poorer, whereas in these agricultural organisations people are afforded the opportunity to learn about agriculture . Can we not say, therefore, that agriculture is still lagging behind in these Territories , seeing we have no organisations to bring the people together? Further , Mr. Chairman, now that rehabilitation has been accepted , the people have been grouped together in villages and in these congregations of homesteads water is very scarce . The officers responsible for the rehabilitation scheme promised that wells would be sunk very quickly. Is it not possible , therefore , that we might have epidemics because of the lack of water? We put these matters forward for his consideration. Further , Mr. Chairman , the dipping tanks in the reserves are far apart and the stock is driven sometimes for a distance of three miles to a tank. Anyone with any knowledge of stockrearing will realise this is a bad thing. If you own milk cows you will find that the day following dipping day your cows do not produce much milk. If you are encouraging people to rear thorough-bred stock you would be wise to know first what such stock requires. I shall go on to another point. Seeing that we have had this drought since last year , and famine as well , people have been assisted in their ploughing operations in certain areas by tractors , but we did not have that assistance in our area. We certainly appreciate the help extended to the areas which received that help, but, Mr. Chairman, all the agricultural farmers in the Transkei are poor people. The fees demanded of them for the use of these tractors is very high. In times such as these we have just experienced, we should be asked to pay R1.25 per acre for the use of these tractors. We note further that the price of maize is still very high. We realise that you are not responsible for the mealie production but we feel you ought to help us too as regards the price of the maize. People should only pay half the price and maize should not be exported to places like Lesotho. In regard to the fertilizers , too, people who accepted rehabilitation were assisted. Even there the price is very high.. If you buy your own fertilizer from the factory you buy a large quantity and get a reduction in price. If you buy your fertilizer from the wholesale dealer you also get a reduction in price , but we have paid the same price as we pay in retail shops to the Government. If you buy fertilizer between January and June you will find that the price is still low at that time . We are surprised that we have to pay such a high price for fertilizer from the Government , because the 3-2-3 fertilizer costs R1.50 and we find that that is exactly the same price as that charged by retail dealers. We would like the Government to reduce this price if it wants to assist us .
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I thought the hon. the Minister of Agriculture was going to follow a different strain of thought and not merely copy what was formerly done by others . I note , however, that he is following in the tracks of his predecessors . I thought he knew just how small the Transkei is, but he comments on what the population of the Transkei is and what its carrying capacity is. I wish he would refrain from telling us all these things that do not matter to us. However, a person who accepts the policy of separate development wil continue on the lines of that
CHIEF S. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Even though I will refer to matters affecting Lusikisiki area, which has not yet accepted rehabilitation, I would appeal on behlaf of those areas which have accepted rehabilitation that they should be remembered when privileges are being
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carry out their duties efficiently in order to avoid disharmony among the people . The officers think that whatever is governmental is a right and privilege for them to do as they please. There does not seem to be any reason why a person should travel from one end of his area to the other merely to have his stock card attended to, either to have his stock reduced or to have a cow included on the card . After the people have taken all that trouble and cannot return home for the night , they are very badly treated by these officers . As regards the rehabilitation scheme I advise the hon. Minister to attend to the one area which has accepted this scheme and to do everything that is necessary for it before moving on to another area. The process of going from one area to another without completing any of the processes is responsible for the people not accepting this scheme.
policy. He will not worry about anything else because he does not want to see the other side of the question . When I reached home last week I found a pigstye had been put up. There were six pigs in the stye and one of these was a very large pig and as I looked at it I found it reminded me of somebody. (Laughter) These pigs are quite content to live in that stye as long as they are given a little food and water to drink. All the pigs do is to dig with their noses in the ground before them and they don't worry Let us now come to to look anywhere else . matters affecting the life of the people. How does the hon. the Minister of Agriculture hope that the Transkei will be able to support its population adequately , seeing that a large portion of the population of the Transkei depends on the productivity of the land? We certainly do not accept that they can exist on the very little produced in the Transkei. Indeed, the hon. Minister said he approved of this planning scheme and I noted at once that he did not understand what he was looking for. If you look through the whole of the Transkei , I estimate that only about 25 per cent of the territory is suitable for agricultural purposes . The remaining 75 per cent will be available for the settlement and habitation of the population, and I would like the hon. Minister to note this fact. The people who are being repatriated from the labour centres will come and settle in the Transkei under the conditions just mentioned on the remaining portion of the land, apart from arable allotments , forestry and roads , and even though I personally approve of this rehabilitation process I think he will agree that there is not much land which can be fenced and rehabilitated. I can tell you of areas that Ipersonally know of where , for a period of over then years , people were moved from the one area to another to live and that inhabited areas was completely crowded. The young men of the area married and asked for homesteads and they were taken back to the area in which the people were formerly settled . I would like to ask the hon. Minister if the Transkei is growing larger or whether it is getting smaller and smaller. However , I can answer him myself that the Transkei is getting smaller every day . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
MR. R.E. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to associate myself with the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and to congratulate him on the work done during the course of last year. I have never seen such work since I was born. He saw that he should do something for agriculture during the drought and he provided tractors to assist us in ploughing. It should be clear to all of us that we get such privileges because we have accepted separate development , because such privileges were never obtainable before separate development. Those people who do not understand this are not able to understand simply because some of them have got European names such as James and John. The name makes no difference . You wil always be known as James or John. I have heard one hon. member saying that the dipping tanks should be situated close to one another in order that the stock should not have to travel long distances . I believe that hon. member will one day ask that he should get his own dipping tank.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Yes , separate development. (Laughter) MR. MAPASSA: My advice to him is that he should consult the demonstrators in order that they should advise him what kind of stock to keep . I am grateful to the hon. Minister because during this time of hardship he made it possible for us to have the use of these tractors. In the area from which I come there is a good crop of mealies. This department gave assistance to those people who have accepted rehabilitation and also to those who have not as yet accepted it. What I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to is in connection with the gates where fencing has been carried out. The people complain that the gates are too far from where they draw water . Another point I want to mention is that during the ploughing season the hon. Minister should send tractors out to all the districts at the same time so that all the districts will be in a position to use them, because all farmers know that ploughing season commences during October and we get our last rains during November . During December when there is no rain, we use the moisture which results from the November
How?
CHIEF MAJEKE : Our small area and the constant erosion as a result of heavy rains , and the loss of fertile soil is responsible for this . The population is increasing and the land is gradually becoming smaller and its carrying capacity reduced . This Government and the new Minister of Agriculture are not putting a new proposition before this House . The hon. Minister is merely following the line of his predecessors. We want to live on this land , we don't want merely to be told what is written in these papers. We would also like the hon. Minister to note that the agricultural officers in the offices do not treat the people as they should. You will find, especially in the office of Agriculture and Forestry, a whole crowd of people who have gone there either to have their stock cards attended to or to have them cancelled for marriage purposes . I would appeal to the hon. Minister to instruct his officers how to 195 .
rains . If the hon. Minister would note that, there would be a very big crop. The charge for tractors is not too high, and sufficient time has been given to pay for the services rendered . (Interjections ) I wish the dogs would keep quiet when I am talking because I do not talk when the dogs are barking. We appreciate the fact that because of the drought farmers will now only have to pay half the price . I would further request the hon. Minister that windmills and dams should not only be provided to those areas which are rehabilitated but to those which have not been rehabilitated as well. I would suggest that this should first be introduced in the rehabilitated areas so that those areas are given the first chance . That would bring peace amongst the people because there are complaints that there is not enough water in the locations. In my area we suffer quite a lot because of lack of water and we have to go quite a number of miles to fetch water . I would request the hon. Minister to note this because his area has suffered a similar drought this year. As far as the increasing numbers of the population of the Transkei is concerned, that cannot be helped by anyone . I would suggest to the hon. members that no marriages should be contracted and that would save the situation. (Laughter)
is the 31st July. I take it that the department or the co-operative societies have the names of those people who took advantage of this ploughing assistance which was extended to them. May I also suggest that enterprising farmers who would like to start ploughing as early as July or August should not be put back to wait till the ploughing season, but rather have the assistance available as required by the enterprising farmer. You see, we would like more mealies produced in the Transkei than at present; we would like more kaffir- corn grown in the Transkei, but not for the purpose of brewing Jabulani, against which I think you did express My main point is this , Sir: It is an opinion. quite obvious that in an under-developed country agriculture may well possibly be the initial step to be taken by that country towards development and I want to stress the importance of your department to the people of the Transkei more than any other department of the government. In our preoccupation with agriculture , however , we must bear in mind the fact that we have a limited area of land available for agricultural enterprises and further consider the fact that it is not only an agricultural economy to which we look, but we look forward also to an industrial economy in the Transkei and the exploitation of the land and the exploitation of the vegetation of the Transkei (I refer to the forests) should be related to possible future economic development by way of industrialization. In other words , agriculture is merely a stepping-stone towards a commercialized and industrialized economy for the Transkei . Are we therefore planning our agriculture with a view to removing most of the people from the land and putting them in the factories and in the industries? When an area accepts a soil conservation scheme , do we plan that conservation scheme with the knowledge that sooner or later most of the people in that area will move away and become workers , or the manpower in industry? Have we accepted the fact that a man will either have to live on the land or live by his earnings at a factory , but not both? Do we therefore at the present moment cut up our agricultural land into economic units that can support a family without the need for a supplementary wage to make ends meet? If we do not do that it means that the planned area will in other words, again have to be replanned the morgen of land which was subdivided amongst the four families will have to be given now to one family and three families will have to move out, as it were , to a township in order to depend on earned wages and salaries for their mainDo we bear in mind the fact that tenance. probably the area that is rehabilitated is placed in such a position that it will not be far from an industrial complex contemplated in the future? - because so long as the breadwinner has to leave his family for a week in order to be at work, we are still condoning migrant labour. My view, Sir, therefore , is that we look at our agricultural effort and planning with an eye on future industrial development when men shall live either on the land , or live by the earnings from factory employment and from office employment. My time is limited, but may I just I think you will mention one other matter. agree with me that there is not even one single
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if anyone asks me what I know about famine I will say, firstly, that I lived on a farm and I worked on a farm. Secondly, I will invite you to come and see my garden at Ncambedlana . (Laughter) Not only flowers grow there, but something to fill your stomach as well, instead of filling it with Jabulani . (Laughter) Mr. Chairman , I rise to take part in this discussion. I will mention one or two points , but I have my main subject about which I would like to address myself to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Although it has been suggested that you were the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry for the whole of the preceding year, may I remind you of the fact that your predecessor did indicate that an irrigation scheme was contemplated in the Umgazana area and Umgazi , and I would like to know if these schemes are still before you. I wish to commend the department for considering a film unit and I hope that colour films will be used, because I think these colour films have a greater appeal psychologically than the black and white film. I notice that you have indicated that tractor ploughing will be limited to those areas where the ploughing stock has been killed by the drought. If I have to put that correctly, you said that ploughing will be determined by the losses of cattle as a result of the drought. May I point out that although there may not be a great loss , the condition of the stock may be such that it is incapable of undertaking ploughing operations . I would rather that you took the wider view that where there is difficulty experienced by the farmer with regard to ploughing, then the department will offer its assistance . May I also suggest that this 50 per cent subsidy which is retrogressively applying to farmers who took advantage of tractor ploughing should be brought to the notice of those who are going to benefit thereby by letter , particularly because some of them may not know that the deadline 196.
citizen of the Transkei who can say a soil conservation scheme involves this , that and the other amongst the citizens of the Transkei. I think it would be to the credit of the department if the department were to take the public into A soil conservation its confidence and say: scheme means these restrictions , these amenities, these provisions for you; that there will be a water scheme, there will be sanitation and services like that. Now you see, the hon. Minister is already shaking his head.
these co- operative societies we are able ourselves to get these vaccines , to get seeds , to get all sorts of things which are of assistance That is why I am very , very in agriculture . thankful that the Government has given loans to these co-operative societies. Some people go as far as to say that the XDC is not a good organisation.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : tation is only private.
MR. VIKA: At least as far as these credit All along we facilities are concerned , then. have been crying that we do not have credit facilities as the Europeans have , but now when we get one we find fault with it. I think what we want now in the Transkei as far as agriculture is concerned is to impress on all the citizens of the Transkei to adopt the "help yourself" attitude. A few years back I was on the Rand looking for work. I had my certificate for Matric and I was qualified for lot of clerical jobs . I went to the pass office but to my surprise the European gentleman who was dealing with me asked me if I was married . I said I was in the hope that I was going to get a good job. He asked if I had a land. I said I had , and the next things was " Escort ! " (Laughter) "You have left your small farm in He said: the Transkei and have come here to find a Go back to your small farm . " This exjob.
MR. GUZANA: being criticized.
Sani-
MR. GUZANA : Well, in any event, tell us what it involves , because if you are going to put people together in one place you are going to have the sanitation problem, water problem , and you must plan it if you are going to recommend the scheme to the public . I am still smoking my pipe of peace but I have not quite finished. MR. G.T. VIKA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I whole-heartedly agree with the policy speech of the hon. Minister, especially in regard to rehabilitation. For five years I have been entertaining the hope that only a few of us would remain in the reserves and that a lot of others would have gone to the towns , and the industrial areas , but I have since changed my mind. I can assure my hon. friend that the African is dearly attached to his land and I do not think it will take two or three generations before you can clear people away to the industrial areas . Whilst you can in theory think of planning with a view that one day people will live there, but I do not think it will be too easy. What we want to look at now is that people are living on their lands and they must improve their conditions of living now. What I would add is that we must not look to the Government alone and wait for the rehabilitation scheme. We must accept that here in the Transkei agriculture is really one of the things that will come to our salvation. It has been said that agriculture should advance in the same way as education, but in fact it is more difficult with agriculture . You see, with education you can force your children to go to school , but with agriculture you are dealing with old people who have already adopted their own methods offarming and you must convince them . That is why I feel for the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when I realise that he really means it when he speaks of planning locations and I do believe that agriculture is our sole salvation for the Transkei . I am supporting this Vote forthe hon. the Minister of Agriculture and would like to point to one or two items. A few years back I was at Maclear and I wanted to buy stock vaccine . I went to a shop but just as I was about to be given this vaccine , someone asked Are you a my name. The next thing was : member? I said: Of what? - and he pointed to the door. It was written " Agricultural Co-operative Society". You see , I wanted to get this vaccine but I was not a member of the co -operative and there was no co-op home. Just as I was thinking of this , the Government introduced co-operative societies . Through
Who said that? It was only
perience created the impression in my mind that first, whether you like it or not you are not wanted in the city if you are from the reserves . Somehow I managed not to return home immediately, but eventually got a job somewhere . OPPOSITION MEMBER : means ?
By
underhand
Yes. (Laughter) On my way MR. VIKA: from work to the location I saw small plots of land belonging to Europeans . When I was not working on Saturdays I used to visit these small plots , seeing these people owning a cow or two, a tractor and one or two other farming I realised why this man said I implements. was leaving my small plot, because they were making use of these small lands of theirs . In my travels I could tell you more about small plots like those , but my main point is that we are not going to increase the size of the Transkei. We are living in the Transkei and we are not the only people who are complaining about the increase in the population but fortunately in other lands the people do try to devise means of making their own land productive . One hon. member said the plots of land we have are too small. I accept that, but we should exploit the Another member said small lands we have. a lot of the men go away for work. I accept It is true , but is it not a fact that that, too. sometimes these lands of ours are more productive when we are away, when our own (Laughter) I think womenfolk are working? we must be agreed on this. We are not using our own lands in the way we should be doing and I think we must all go out , irrespective of which side we sit in this House , to support the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he is going around planning our lands . The trouble
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is over there will be human limitation of the African. ( Laughter)
is that when an area has been rehabilitated , the people who had their areas fenced some ten years ago are now complaining. If you have fences they are broken and the gates are broken. I think what we need is to convince these people These days our people are and show them. notorious for being law-breakers. The reason why they are law-breakers is because they do not feel these regulations which govern them as far as rehabilitation is concerned are their own. I think the agricultural officers must consult these people , teach them and convince them that rehabilitation is a good thing.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are not discussing this Vote. Come to the bill. MR. MAJJA: We require more land so that when our children grow to manhood they will find sufficient land on which to live . What our hon. friend across the floor does not realise is that we were tricked as far as the allocation of land is concerned.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , on a point of order , I do not think it is right for the hon. members across the floor to attack the Republic when we are discussing a specific bill. We are in committee of supply to discuss ways and means. It is not for any member to go and attack the land policy of South Africa.
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture , was resumed . CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to associate myslef with the policy speech made by the hon. Minister. So far as the fencing in of rehabilitated areas is concerned, all the inhabitants of those areas Know the regulations perfectly well and there is no cause for any complaint against rehabilitation committees . They have their own rehabilitation committees to whom they lay their complaints . If a matter is already working there is no need for it to be brought to this House. I thank the Government for taking the necessary steps during this time of drought. When the Government noticed that stock was perishing through drought, they made arrangements to take this stock to better grazing elsewhere. I thank the Government for this action and more particularly the former Minister of Agriculture , because the present one has just assumed his portfolio, for assisting the citizens of the Transkei by lending tractors for ploughing purposes . This is a very delicate matter and does not require any political discussion. We are quite in agreement with the Opposition that agriculture should be made more effective and productive . We also request the demonstrators to demonstrate to people . It should not be the people who show the demonstrators what to do. Usually the demonstrators tell the people that they are only advisers in regard to what has already been done by the people. A blind man can never lead a man who cannot see. We
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And in amplification of what the hon. the Chief Minister says , the hon. member should be directed to rule 35. He is introducing irrelevant matters about land - land which they said they did not want last year . MR. MAJIJA: acquisition of land.
We are dealing with the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are not dealing with acquisition of land. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, will you please confine yourself to the bill. MR. MAJIJA : We are dealing with scarcity of land which is not sufficient for us.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are dealing with a Vote here , not land. MR. MAJIJA: Seeing that land is so scarce , whatever effort and agricultural knowledge we may put into it, that land cannot produce more than its capacity. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please.
All I maintain is that we MR. MAJIJA: require much more land than the land available The European farmers who are for our use. able to produce thousands and thousands of bags of grain do so because of the extensive lands In the reserves we have many they plough. people who have not even a plot of arable land, and there is the repatriation of people from the labour centres who know nothing about working This reminds me of the industrial the land. revolution in England, where people who were sent out to this country to practise agriculture put their picks four feet deep into the soil and because they were used to urban life they found they could not subsist in South Africa and therefore returned overseas. This is just what is being done by repatriating people from the industrial centres to come to the homeland. There is no land for them because even those who are here have not sufficient land for themselves . I would like now to refer to this rehaYou are not trying to help in this bilitation.
would also request the Government to supply us with fertilizer during the ploughing season. I am very pleased to have this opportunity of addressing the Assembly and I thank you , Sir. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the Transkei we are quarrelling over a dry bone, because , firstly, the Transkei is in itself a very small area and experts who know anything about the soil and its nature maintain that the Transkei is very poor, apart from the grass - and I am not aware that the people feed on grass . What the African requires is land, because the land has been taken over totally by the White man and only a small portion is left for us . We were placed in these Bantustan "pondokkies " , it being well known that we will multiply and increase in numbers. I am quite aware that now that stock limitation
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want land, but it was only yesterday when we on this side applied for more land and they objected. If we unanimously make a request God will come Now they go about and say this to our aid. Government is only concerned with fencing. This proves that these people are not quite normal. (Interjections) I am standing for your people . A traitor cannot say I am cheating because I am standing for the chiefs. I have been called by the people . My father died fighting for this country. He was wounded and he died, and now I say I thank this hon. Minister for the work he has accomplished. I am thankful for this opportunity to address the Assembly.
matter of restoring the soil or stopping erosion. If you, as a Government, were interested in helping the people agriculturally you should be giving trucks to people to transport kraal manure to their lands . While we were under the Republican Government we were given such help . I do not know why this Government is not doing likewise. You are expecting good results from the people who are ploughing these lands without being agriculturists . Further, the improvement of stock will not progress at all in the manner in which it is being done . At one time when I wanted to improve my herd I wanted to buy a special breed of ram. I was informed that in areas which have accepted rehabilitation one could buy a ram for R10, but in the unrehabilitated areas one had to pay R20. I am talking of what takes place now where one is required to pay R20 for a ram in an unrehabilitated area, whereas in a rehabilitated area they are required to pay only R10. Is your aim not to improve stock? Do you worry more about fencing? Further, no steps are taken by the Government to destroy the jackals in these forests . In our area we destroyed four jackals which had come from the forest to the villages . It was quite true what was said by the hon. member on the Government side , that whoever moves about with his dog is arrested immediately. Seeing that you cannot destroy these jackals we would like you to leave them to us and we will destroy them. You have African stock inspectors and as far as I know there is no place where they can live in any of these towns. We would ask the Government to provide living quarters for these African stock inspectors in the same way as is done for European stock inspectors , because the Transkei is their homeland where they should be privileged to have all the rights .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to associate myself with the side that is criticizing the policy of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . I would advise the hon. Minister to follow the example of the other Ministers by giving us a report next year as the other Ministers have done. Last year they gave us estimates of what they proposed to do in their departments this year, instead of telling us what they propose to do the following year. As representatives of the people we would like to know what has been achieved. We note that there is a huge sum of money which is to be used for an irrigation scheme in the St. Mark's area . As expected , this was something the people were looking forward to. Over and above this increased sum of money that will be expended in that region , it is also stated that tractors will be made available for that same region . One wonders whether St. Mark's is the only area which suffers from drought in the whole of the Transkei . The people who have been speaking in support of this policy would be doing well if they were really working their arable allotments profitably , or if they had arable plots allotted to them. It is a very good thing to speak on what one is actually doing. I shall not single out such hon. members as merely come to speak here about matters they know nothing of. The hon. member from Tsolo advised that the people should go back to the land and practise agriculture . He even gave us an example of himself having to go and look for employment on the Rand . I would like to tell him that in the progressive areas today the tendency is for the people to go to work centres , rather than to come back to the land. The European farmers are faced with the difficulty of persuading their young people who are now used to life in the urban areas to come back to the land. That does not mean to say that people who have a keen interest in agricultural activities do not want to come back to the land , but people who are not interested in these operations do not want to come back to the reserves . What we want in the reserves is an improvement in these agricultural operations so that they are attractive . Soil reclamation is a very good thing but the fault is with the officers carrying out these operations, because they fail to make them attractive to the people . One hon. member said that the people should go back to the agricultural life but I maintain that the plots of land cannot produce more than they are capable of. Some people even advocate the fencing of small plots so that whoever is keen may work his land as he pleases . Here is a surprising thing
MR . A. XELO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , and to thank him for his report. I will not mention points which have already been mentioned by other speakers . Your department is the essence of the life of the people . When our people were overpowered by the White races it was because they had no land. We fought nine wars with the White people and we were conquered. We were fighting for our land. Adam committed a breach of the law when he was on the land and he was driven out. I am very thankful to the Deity for sending the White people to our country and again he has made We are very them sympathetic towards us . thankful to the seconded officials in all these departments . We thank the Republican Government for the six Ministers and also the seconded officers . , It is our wish that you do more in your department. We believe that nothing can be accomplished without this separate development government. They have asked for all the things we need. They have asked for more land on behalf of our people , and as they have made a request to you, the Minister of Agriculture , you should not cease giving assistance to the people. When ploughing has been done there will be fewer criminals in gaol. We trust that the Government will give us what we have requested - the Government which is sympathetic towards us . These people today say they
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now that we have fenced these areas the stock is dying in great numbers . What causes this loss of stock now that they have fenced these areas ? As the people see what is happening they often ask whether the stock should not be allowed to graze freely in all the camps so that they will find sufficient water , because in some of the camps there are no dams to water the beasts. The agricultural officers agree with this idea and one would like to ask now that stock is dying in such numbers whether it would not be better for grazing areas to be marked out for grazing purposes , and only arable allotments fenced in. It is mentioned here that you wish to decrease the Vote for woodlots in the rehabilitated areas. I think differently. I wish the Vote could be increased because in the wooded areas the drought is not as bad as, say , in the Qamata area or in the Tabankulu area. The trees have the effect of drawing rain and if we were to increase the bush and forest we would not have these severe droughts . In the rehabilitated areas we have portions of what are called "waste lands " . It would be better if plantations and forests could be raised in these areas, rather than in areas which can be put under the plough , particularly because these waste lands are in exposed areas , and these are the portions of land which usually have natural forests . Referring to animal husbandry, last year the hon. Minister spoke a great deal about artificial insemination and the people who desired this artificial insemination to be used for their flocks did not get the approval of the Government.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall allow one more speaker from the Government side and thereafter I shall ask the hon. Mr. Kutu to move his amendment.
taking the trouble of fertilizing one could raise about ten bags per acre. However , we agree on one point and that is that the product most suitable for a certain type of soil must be raised in that area. Similarly, as regards fertilizers it should be noted that some soils require certain types of fertilizer which will not be suitable for other soils. I think we are agreed on this as far as the soil is concerned. A certain agricultural officer in the Matatiele district, Mr. Ngcobo, had a small patch of ground and he merely ran poultry on that plot. If we were to follow his example and the people in the Ramahlokoana area, say, were to become poultry farmers they would be able to raise enough money to buy whatever is required for other farming. In connection with co-operative societies , let us not refer this solely to the Government, because if you look at the policy speech you will notice that the hon. Minister says in their own interest it is essential that they should understand that these societies belong to them. They are responsible for their progress and only loyal support by the members can prevent their failure . It is only in that direction that help will be available from the Government in assisting these societies when they are a going concern. I would refer now to what was said by my hon. friend over there when he spoke of growing trees. When you plant these trees you must have in mind what return you will have when you plant them . Take, for example , an oak tree , because from the acorns that fall from the oak tree you can take them , prepare them and use them as feed for your pigs . Let me refer to what I experienced in the Matatiele area where people can rear up to eight pigs which can be sold at the age of about eight to twelve months , and when you sell them you will not get anything less than R400 for the eight pigs. The person who has reared these pigs and has made that profit will use that profit to buy milk-cows from the farmer next door to him . I would like to refer to what was said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he said he has a plot at Ncambedlana on which he raises all types of vegetables . I advise him to use his produce to feed his milk-cows and sell the milk and I would like him to take note of the return he will get.
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , while listening to the debate I find we are concentrating on the ploughing of the soil only. I think we should use the word "farming" to describe all the activities . I would like to refer to what the hon. Mr. Jafta said, when he advised that we should ask for the help of experts from outside the bounds of the Transkei. I wonder whether he will explain to us whether he followed the advice of the agricultural experts whom we have inthe Transkei , and how far he followed their advice and where he found they failed. I wish the hon. member to note that the Transkei has not got Different the same type of soil throughout. areas have different types of soil. Let it be noted that the type of soil in the Transkei is similar in certain areas to soil found in the Transvaal, where you can only produce a certain maximum number of bags of maize , whereas in some areas the soil is so fertile that without
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, I would like you to give me the privilege of extending my time about five minutes , if you can. I move an amendment : "That Vote 5 , Sub-head A, Item 1 in respect of the Minister's salary be reduced by R2,000. " The reason for this amendment is that if someone leaves another person in his place he leaves him with either a pair of shoes or an overcoat to wear. If the shoes left are old and tattered they will make the person walk clumsily. If it be a torn coat then the person will suffer from cold. I would like to say to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that if the shoes he is stepping into now are old and tattered he should not wear them, because if he wears them he will kill the Transkei. I would like to say that he and his predecessor are not like one another facially , as the former Minister had a pointed nose and the present Minister has a flat nose . (Laughter) Because of his facial description we will be able to point him out to the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Had the bill been enacted? CHIEF NDAMASE : There is an Act in respect of the Republican Government , even if your Government has not put the bill into effect. You spoke about artificial insemination and encouraged the people to make use of the scheme and we wanted to do so.
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CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to say a few words in this debate for , as regards the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , I do not see any deviation from rectitude . Again, I understand that this Minister has been newly elected and newly initiated and he cannot at all be compared with the old one . In regard to the example he set....( Interjections)
children and say " That is he" . I would like the hon. Minister to know that what we need are the things we are telling him about directly. We hope you will be a truthful Minister and not one who tells untruths. The hon. member into whose shoes you have stepped failed us when we asked him to put a windmill in our area and because of lack of water there five children died. We asked him to come to that area to show him where we needed a windmill erected, but he did not turn up. We still need it. Put it up and save the lives of our children. We have a difficulty as far as agricultural officers are concerned. At the present moment there is no agricultural officer in our area. The agricultural officer who was there left after he had destroyed the land. I would be happy if you would listen to me because at the time when people wanted his services agriculturally he went round the area concerning himself with political affairs. He used also to go around preaching rehabilitation. As proof of what I say I have a list of approximately 86 names of people....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Please speak up, hon. member, the stenographer cannot hear you. CHIEF SIGCAU: They are just buzzing like bees , Mr. Chairman. When I say this Minister , newly elected, is a Minister who is well educated in regard to agriculture I say so because of his experience . He is not a Minister who never went to school in regard to the learning of agriculture, and so I say he is well versed in agriculture . (Interjections) Some people are just If the mongrels are barking, leave jealous. them to bark and go your own way. Don't worry about them. In regard to this present Minister, he can achieve anything. I don't see what he cannot do. His salary should not be reduced , and whoever said that is a barbarian or a pagan.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , I should like you to dwell on the Vote in question and not go into the effects of what happened last year under the previous Minister.
(Laughter) reduced.
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, I would be sorry if the Chairman stopped me because I am on this amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary. I am advising him about his predecessor and asking him not to follow his methods. I was saying that the agricultral operations in that area seem to have been in the hands of people who did not know what they were about, but I just mentioned here the names of approximately 86 people who have been asked to pay a fee for the ploughing of each of their plots of land and they have not been ploughed. On that account I maintain his salary should be reduced so that the poor widowed mothers and the poor people who cannot pay for this agricultural operation may recive part of his stipend. We, as representatives of the people , would like the people not to be charged anything , seeing they will have no harvest from their plots this year. I would advise that whatever taxes were paid by our forefathers to the Republican Government must be claimed to help pay for these tractors now, so that at this time of hardship and famine the people will not suffer. As Minister of Agriculture we have no desire to see you in the rural areas talking about political issues , instead of discussing agricultural matters. In one location in our area , the working class people are usually taken by the headman to the magistrate's office , but the headman in that area was a candidate for these elections. He failed to get in, and he was told by the people " We want Kutu" . When people are required to be employed in the digging of dams in that area he chooses only those whom he favours and he tells the poor widowed mothers and the poor people to go to Kutu whom they elected as their representative. We appeal to the hon. Minister to take note of this. Please put this matter right. We would like the amount by which your salary is reduced to go to these poor people.
The Minister's salary should not be
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The next speaker will be the last one before the Minister replies . MR. N.P. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise in support of the amendment by the hon. Mr. Kutu to the effect that the salary of the Minister should be reduced because he has failed to carry out his duties as Minister. In this rehabilitation scheme he is only interested in saving stock and he does not care for the welfare of the people. He removes people from one area and places them in a different area. Instead of putting up a habitation for those people first, he starts by moving them and sending them to a barren area without habitation, whereas he should start by putting up lavatories in the area to which he is moving them. In moving people from a certain area he should fence in the cemetery instead of giving people arable plots over those graves . Here is another point: In Mqanduli we have natural forests and instead of more plantations being put up people are stopped from gathering firewood . In the Kwaaiman area the natural forests were closed to use by the people and they have no place to gather firewood. Now your agricultural officers and rangers move from village to village trying to find out if one green twig has been cut. What are they guarding in these forests if they will come down looking in our homesteads ? We would like you to advise them to stop guarding our homesteads and the firewood that has been collected and, instead, to guard the forests and They come and arrest any poor plantations. dweller who may not even have cut his twigs from the plantations . At Xora plantation a person was bitten the week before last by a snake because you do not do your work properly. There should be first-aid equipment in these forest stations so that if a person is bitten by a snake , first- aid can be administered at once. If a person is stung they sometimes die from
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : I second the amendment. 201 .
small allotments of about three morgen which they said had already become exhausted in some cases . We should remember in the first place that we have to cut our suit according to the cloth. You have all said that the Transkei is small. How then can we begin cutting it in big allotments , especially because the people themselves want all their sons to be settled on the same small lands ? The planners try
that sting. How much more from a snake -bite ? The foresters should have equipment to treat people for these stings and snake -bites. There are gates in these forests through which people have to go to collect firewood , but all these gates are locked because the guards are too lazy and want people to use one gate only. You should employ more guards so that the people can use all these gates , instead of being compelled to go through one gate . In our area we had numbers of monkeys which were very destructive to our crops in the land. The European official there introduced these monkeys and they have increased, but he has now left. It is for those reasons that we say the Minister's salary should be reduced, because he does not know how to carry out his duties . The people are starving . We though that like a reasonable Minister he would see to it that the price of maize is reduced from R5, because the people are poor and they have had no harvest from their plots. We appeal to the hon. Minister to approach the Government to subsidize this so that the people can get their maize at a lower price. Here is athird point : We were given the tractors, but we cannot thank you for that because the tractors do not do the work properly. In the Mqanduli area they were used to plough plots for two or three areas only, and many people who wanted them did not get them. When the people wanted these tractors they were told they had been withdrawn. Then we had this drought and the crops failed. We were promised we could pay for these tractors at the end of August. We appeal to you to extend the period for paying, because so many people in the Mqanduli area are unemployed . They want an extension of time to pay for the use of these tractors and for fertilizer. The people cannot get contract labour. For these reasons we appeal to you to extend the period of payment because some of the people who use these tractors are very poor and they get help from nowhere . Many people will not be able to pay because they are unemployed and several of them are old- age pensioners and some of them are applicants for pensions. The applicants , though they may be old, are often told to go and re -marry. It is not the chiefs who are responsible for this. The chiefs recommend that the people be given these pensions but the magistrate disapproves . It is for that reason that we advocate this reduction in the salary of the Minister .
to balance the arable allotments to the pasture lands , but time and again the people themselves say they want their sons , all their sons , to have allotments which , if allowed , would only cut down the pasture lands even further , making the whole less economic still. But much can be done with the three morgen if only we would follow the proper methods of cultivation. For instance , the fertility of the soil can be improved by such methods as crop rotation , stubble cultivation, cutting out altogether this "buqisa " custom , and all stubble ploughed back into the If that were done a great deal would soil. result in the improvement of the ground . Sometimes we come across huge mounds of kraal manure carted into the kraals instead of into the land, and that could be increased by compostmaking too. The use of such fertilizers as what we call " complete " fertilizers , such as 3-2-3 , have brought about great improvement in crop I have mentioned this "buqisa" production . custom which the people themselves alone can stop, and if all we as members of this august body were to undertake to teach the people these things , then a great step forward would be made in improvement . Winter cropping even for stock fodder alone would be a great improvement for the animals as well as for the land. Take these animals - they get into the lands to "buqisa" for only about three or four weeks at the most and the rest of the time they are as a rule , powdering the soil and you see great dust coulds rising up at times and all the fertile soil being carried away to the sea. How can you expect the land to be fertile ? If people could adopt just these methods which have been preached time and again and show that they make full use of their land, then the question of small allotments could be gone into by the Government to see further how we can help those people who have successfully used their lands to get more and bigger lands . It has been mentioned that we should find out the true farmers and sift away those who are not true farmers . These matters have been discussed by commissions like the Tomlinson Commission and I am glad to find out from the remarks of the hon. members across the floor that they must be readers of this report. It is the aim of the department to see that the people get economic units . It is the hope of this Government that it will not be many years before we can get the people to realise that they cannot all live on the land . We must teach the people ; we must come together on all sides of this House , go to the people and teach them again and again . Somebody mentioned , for instance , about the yellow weed that is infesting some of the pasture lands around Umtata and Idutywa , as you will see when travelling down that way. This is the Senecio species and you will find that this weed which only comes up where the grazing has not been controlled properly is also dangerous to animals .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the hon. Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to express my gratitude at the way the debate has been carried on. It is most commendable and, by the way, I see as the new Minister of Agriculture and Forestry I have even to see I will (Laughter) to snakes and monkeys . touch on a few points here and there, but before I do so allow me to mention that I am glad indeed for the way the shadow Minister of Agriculture and Forestry introduced and set the standard of debate . We need not mention 'much about the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because his criticisms are always very constructive . The hon. members mentioned about
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across the floor , the shadow Minister of Agriculture. He expects everything to be done by the Government. For instance , he mentioned various projects what is the Government doing about the mealie project, the horticultural project, vegetables , fruit, wheat. Well , need we tell him we have had School of Agriculture demonstrators , extension officers and all those people have been helping out with demonstration plots for many years . (Interjections ) We have the Tsolo School of Agriculture with the projects of a complete home that can be run by an ordinary farmer with his wife and , say, a family of five altogether. (Interjections) We have mealie experiments in acid soils like Umzimkulu, where formerly hardly any crop would grow. We have had mealie and sorghum experiments in St. Mark's , which is the dryest in the Transkei , fruit and vegetables in Port St. John's . My hon. friend went so far as to tell us a story I did not very well believe , when he said I should travel with my officials down to the Western Cape and see lucerne lands there and fruit gardens which are propagated by the Government.
It is poisonous , but it can be controlled very readily as shown by all parts where fencing and rehabilitation has been undertaken, by that means. I am glad to find out that most of the members from the Opposition have expressed that they do go with rehabilitation. I only wish they would go out and say this to the people very loudly . Shall I tell you our MR. K.M. GUZANA : trouble ? When we recommend soil conservation the members of the Cabinet, with an eye to the vote , will say: You will never fence. here so long as we live. What do we do? How can we shout louder than the Cabinet itself ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : that is news to me.
Well ,
MR. GUZANA: It is just like that. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You have mentioned much about water - water for stock and water for people. This is one of the problems exercising the minds of the department and the Government. In fact, even in the Republican Government people have declared that 1970 should be considered as "water year" , so that we should all be water conscious and do all we can to help in improving the water condition of the veld and for the people . It has already been mentioned that there has been an increase in the allocation of the Vote for this purpose, so you can see the Government will do all it can to see that we help the people as well as the stock. Similarly, when I mentioned in my speech about irrigation I did say there were several other schemes that are in contemplation, including the Umgazi and Umgazana scheme. It is still before us and we shall see as time allows and other means what we can do about it.
MR. N. JAFTA: I never said the Government was doing it. I said irrigation schemes were done by the Government and the people are producing the crops . They are assisted by the Government. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The irrigation scheme we are already trying to institute . The hon. member went further and I hope he will correct me here , too , when he said that we should go overseas and invite experts to come and teach us agriculture in South Africa. Am I mistaken there too? MR . JAFTA: That I said. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You remember the story of Lazarus and Dives , when the old man got into the wrong place and he said: Please send someone to teach my brothers Then Abraham told him they had on earth. Moses and the other prophets to teach them . We have excellent agricultural officers in South Africa and in the Transkei , in particular, too. In fact, those people overseas would probably not appreciate our conditions and therefore let us use our Moses across there .
MR. GUZANA: I am worried by the fact that you say in your speech in this connection that you are setting aside funds for equipment for the St. Mark's irrigation scheme when this Umgazi and Umgazana scheme was contemplated long before . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Investigations have already been made in those areas . Let us talk about the tractor ploughing. I have already mentioned in this House that the tractors belong to the XDC and somebody has rightfully asked that we should not wait for the tractors to come late in October. The XDC will be only too glad if you can contact them and arrange for the ploughing of your land. In fact, the hon. the Chief Minister and the Qamata people have already had the services of the tractors for putting in their winter crops , making their contracts directly with the XDC who also, I learn, are prepared to provide advances or loans. May I mention, if you will allow me, that they will be starting on some lands in our area on Thursday, without any contract being negotiated through the Government, so there is no reason why we should be always saying the Government should do this , that and the other thing. In fact, that is one of the points on which we somewhat disagree with my hon. friend
MR. H.H. ZIBI : You haven't replied about the XDC .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Ithought we had gone beyond the XDC and were dealing with another matter now. Again, the shadow Minister over there mentioned noxious weeds and referred it once again to the Government. Ordinary noxious weeds are under the direct control of the headman and the people , which is the right thing, but if you would come and work together with us, all of you in the Opposition, we could apply the laws already there to force people to deal with these noxious weeds . (Interjections) CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : to support your policy? 203.
Do you want us
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We want you to destroy the noxious weeds . There are types which are very difficult for amateurs to deal with, such as the jointed cactus and a few others, the lantanas and so forth. If you look at the Estimates you will find there is provision for such noxious weeds . Again, go to the people and tell them to deal with their noxious weeds . We are dealing with those which are too much for the people . There was mention by at least two members, including the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, about closed settlements and sanitation. The Department of Agriculture , as well as the Government as a whole , is alive to the great need of sanitary measures to be taken. You know very well how we try hard to get the people to stop using the pigs as their sanitary agents because those pigs are dangerous to the people as well as the fact that when sold they almost invariably lose their value . But again, it is the question of approach. We believe that the people themselves should first be taught the need for providing sanitary facilities by all of us here , as the leaders of the people , and they can very cheaply provide such sanitary arrangements. It is a matter of digging a hole and putting some sticks round.
can be dealt with in the proper manner even where they have to be sent forward to the governmental bodies, by being initiated in the farmers ' associations. I rather fear that we are being left by our good ladies with their Zenzele associations and we praise them for it because they are giving us an example to move on. Co-operative societies have also been established in many places , some voluntarily, some through the aid and influence of the Government, and if only the members from all sides could take a direct interest in such associations then you would find that our agricultural problems could be dealt with. It is not my intention, Mr. Chairman, to directly be political or partypolitical in this matter where we deal with agriculture, and I still repeat that whatever political party you belong to, let us come and reason together. A later mention was made of Qamata area being so catered for with tractors and irrigation and all that. The hon. members should remember that that big scheme has been inherited by us from the Republican Government. They did not complete the work and there is still a lot to be done in levelling the lands , making beds for irrigation and so on, and this work has to be done . We were therefore obliged to buy these tractors and to carry on this work until it reaches its end.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : My point is that where you have the people concentrated in one place your department should insist that these provisions become part and parcel of the planning.
MR. B.S. MNYANI: cattle ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I am glad you mentioned that. If you read the announcement made early in my capacity as Minister of Agriculture you would have seen that great relaxation has been made to allow people to get stock in. This brings me to another point mentioned by the hon. member about artificial insemination. As far as I can gather from the officials in charge of the Veterinary Department, I find that no applications have ever come to them . One other point to which I should refer, mentioned by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , is in connection with woodlots . The reason for the reduction of that Vote is just that it has been found that formerly it was over-estimated. I think I have dealt with all the points raised and so I repeat that the Vote should now be passed.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We will be very glad if you will support us. MR. GUZANA : We do. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :
What about permits for
We
could even put it into the law. MR. GUZANA : It is a matter of health services more than anything else , protecting the people in case of infectious diseases breaking out. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well , there are quite a number of points raised here and there in connection with dipping tanks being few and far between, but the trouble there is that we find quite a number of dipping tanks do not pay their way. These dipping tanks in the first place are run, say, by the tribal authorities and if we were to take them over we would be forced to increase the stock rate. That is another point which should be debated and we should sit down and have a look at it. In fact, I think it was the shadow Minister again who said we should talk about everything in order to come to a settlement. Perhaps that is the most important declaration made in this House , at least as far as this Vote is concerned . We need greatly to establish farmers ' associations. Every administrative area , as well as every district, ought to have their farmers ' association. It is where all these things should be initiated , rather than in this House. People should learn to come together in small groups and in bigger groups and discuss all these problems , and probably they will find a way out. You will find I speak from experience on this point, that matters actually can be settled, can be righted,
MR . R. MSENGANA: man.
I second, Mr. Chair-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the hon. Minister wishes to withdraw his amendment? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, on further investigation and on consulting those people who know the law, and being thankful to the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition, I wish to withdraw the amendment I proposed earlier. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall now put the amendment by the hon. Mr. Kutu that Vote 5 be reduced by R2,000 in respect of the Minister's salary.
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The amendment was lost.
acting on behalf of the hon. the Minister of Justice. The date of the second reading will be on Friday, 23rd May , or so soon thereafter .
The sum of R5,665,000 under Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was passed to stand part of the schedule.
TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
House Resumed
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House go into committe of supply .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 20th May, 1969 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
The
TUESDAY, 20th MAY, 1969
Agreed to. House in Committee
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
POLICY SPEECH : MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS
QUESTIONS
Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly.
QUESTION NO. 15. Mr. Jafta asked the Chief Minister:In view of the fact that this House resolved that this Government should negotiate with the Republican Government for the construction of a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad, will the Chief Minister state why he has in his reply to Question No. 9 on the 6th May, 1969 , refused to make a statement on the negotiations ?
Although it is a new experience for me to be acting in the capacity of a Minister of State , I find this task considerably eased by the fact that my predecessor , the Honourable Z.M. Mabandla has , during his term of office , done a great deal of pioneering work in giving direction and purpose to my department. I therefore wish to devote these , my opening remarks, to a sincere expression of appreciation for his unstinting efforts in blazing the trail in what was still largely uncharged territory. He laid down the basic policies for the department which I intend to follow, broadening the trail as we proceed and introducing such innovations to the policy as may be dictated by our continued advance into self-government.
REPLY: I wish to refer the honourable member to my reply to Question No. 59 during the 1968 session of this Assembly in which I indicated that the resolution had been referred to the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development for sympathetic consideration. There is therefore no purpose in making further statements in this regard and it is for the Cabinet to decide what further approach, if any, to the South African Government will be made .
In pursuit of the above principle , I should like to state that the department is once more embarking upon an extensive programme of road reconstruction, re-gravelling and maintenance , and major and minor works , consisting of offices, schools, additional classrooms , saw mills and other auxiliary buildings , all of which should, barring accidents , staff problems and circumstances beyond the control of the department and its contractors , be well nigh completed or completed to the extent planned by the end of the financial year .
REGIONAL AUTHORITY COURTS BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that this bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, I table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) that the hon. the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly. I also move that the bill to provide for the establishment of Bantu Affairs Commissioners' Courts in regional authority areas and for the appointment of additional Bantu Affairs Commissioners in such areas be read a first time .
Funds available to the department have been distributed as fairly as possible , having regard to the urgency of the requirements of the six departments served and, as always , with a keen eye to the development of the Transkei and its Little expansion is envisaged , but it people . has been found that an additional major regravelling unit is vitally necessary for the large Dalindyebo region to cope with this region's extensive main road system .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second.
Agreed to. My department' vote 6 provides for the expenditure of R4,910,000 during the financial year 1969/70 which is R232,000 more than the previous financial year. Expenditures which have caused this increase , in spite of every effort to effect economies , are for commitments which cannot be deferred.
The bill was read a first time. THE CHAIRMAN : reading?
What date for the second
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, Iam 205.
It has, that the present staff can handle. therefore , not been deemed advisable to establish and equip additional construction and major regravelling units for the present.
I now propose to proceed with a discussion of the individual subheads of the vote, passing comment on and underlining such items as touch on policy , problems experienced , progress made and things yet to come.
Although roads in the Transkei have improved considerably since 1963, this has only been achieved through strenuous efforts by the department. The policy of raising the road standards will continue but the House must take serious cognisance of the fact that road traffic in the Transkei , especially heavy traffic , has increased considerably. This is very exacting on the roads and this department is finding it difficult to cope with the heavy maintenance required.
Subhead A which provides funds for the payment of salaries reflects an increase of R31,800. This can be attributed primarily to the recent increase in salaries approved by the Government, various salary increments and the filling of certain vacant posts . As this subhead deals with personnel , I wish to advise the House that the department is still experiencing a shortage of thoroughly qualified workmen for certain specific trades and senior skilled road staff.
It may be of interest to note that the department's "Project Unit" , which was created to carry out specialised operations , has , during the past year, been engaged among other things in the provision of streets in the Ibisi township, the funds for which were provided by the Chief Minister's department . The unit is shortly to move to the Ramahlokoana township where it will be engaged for the greater part of the year, again under funds provided by the Chief Minister's department, in the provision of the main streets in order that the building of the Maluti High and Training College and other works , including private building operations , may be undertaken as soon as circumstances permit.
I am happy to say that the three engineering students whom the Government sent to the Witwatersrand University managed to pass the second year course , albeit with supplementary examinations , whilst its one engineering technician at Tutamaphelo School also succeeded in completing his first year after writing a supplementary examination. A further three engineering technicians of the department commenced this course at the beginning of the year. Whilst the Roads division, except for Principal and Senior Roads Foremen, is adequately staffed for the present requirements , the Works division still labours under a shortage of qualified workmen for building trades which hampers the activities of this division. The workshop staff position as far as motor mechanics are concerned, is critical. However , three probationer apprentices have been appointed.
To provide good roads and buildings all sorts of machines , plant, tools and equipment are required and for this purpose funds are provided under Subhead H. The cost of the new major regravelling unit will be approximately R91,200 , but the rest of the funds are mainly required for the replacement of old and worn-out machinery, plant, tools , etc.
I would be ungrateful if I did not pay tribute to my staff for their prodigious efforts, in spite of staff difficulties , to render the services required of them by the six Government Departments. Productivity and efficiency , although still not what they should be , have increased in all spheres of activities.
During 1968/69 many items of vehicles , machinery and plant should have been replaced but the replacement was delayed in order to effect economies in the estimates. This placed an inordinate burden on the central workshop and increased the costs of maintenance and repairs to plant. However, the department cannot delay replacement any further without risking a complete breakdown of the units and the Roads organisation. Consequently a moderate amount of replacement has had to be provided for in the 1969/70 Estimates. Nevertheless , the actual increase in the subhead only amounts to R24,800.
I now come to Subheads B to F. These subheads provide funds required for the ordinary day to day administration . There is a very slight increase spread over these five subheads . Subhead G deals with one of the major activities of the department, namely the construction and maintenance of Government roads. Owing to the importance of roads in the communication system of the Transkei and the ever- increasing demand for more and better roads as a result of the development of the Transkei which has brought in its train an increase in the volume and weight of traffic , the department is hard The pressed to meet these requirements . situation is aggravated by the lack of qualified and experienced senior manpower, both in the field and at the important auxiliary thereto, the workshop. The total amount of money required is R1,075,000 . This represents an increase of R81,000 . The amount is largely made up by the operational costs of a new unit and the increase in the wages of personnel .
Subhead J, Building Services ; Major Works, reflects another vital activity of the department as buildings of all types and sizes are required by the six departments. This should be regarded as the natural outflow of Transkei development. The department is experiencing great difficulty in keeping the demand within the practical and financial limits of the department. To cope with the demand 24 additional workman posts were acquired during the last financial year. Every effort has been made to reflect only such funds as are actually required to carry out the work in the financial year concerned , but it must be stressed that the planning and execution of services by the department and its Works staff as well as by architects , other
The present number of road units are all
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consultants and building contractors is subject to a number of imponderable and unpredictable factors beyond their control . These factors may assume proportions leading to the total dislocation of the programme. Foremost among these factors in the Transkei are problems of supply, transportation and man-power in all fields of activity. The main contractor is often in the hands of specialist sub- contractors who themselves are subject to the above problems . Add to this the vagaries of climate and the elements , and the odds against a service going exactly as planned and estimated become rather heavy. In times of drought a project may suffer delay as much from the lack of water as it can in times of flood suffer from the surfeit of it! The policy of giving out large projects on contract must continue and is being steadily extended into the the field of smaller and medium sized projects as well , numerous Bantu contractors becoming more firmly established as we go along. This process , however, involves the department in more extensive administrative and technical work.
Department of Agriculture and Forestry stinted no efforts in providing and processing the timber required for the work and it deserves all credit for having made it possible to provide the Courts with the atmosphere and dignity they now possess. Members are also now in a position to observe the progress made on the Technical College . The Blythswood school is complete and the hostels almost ready to be taken over. The first phase would be complete at that stage, The second phase as can be seen from the Estimates , should be half completed by the end of the current financial year.
Subhead K. Apart from the major building works to be carried out during the current financial year, there are numerous minor essentials building projects of a great variety required by the six departments and provision for this work has been made under this subhead . Under this subhead funds are also provided for the Primary School classroom scheme with which honourable members are familiar. The
It is noteworthy that Educational projects alone require R986,100 of the total amount of R1,408,100. This means that it is intended to
response to the scheme during the past year has again been disappointing, despite the fact that the Government has raised its contribution form R1,350 to R1,600 per classroom as was announced in this House during the first Session held last year, and despite the fact that widespread publicity through the medium ofthe press and educational officers was given to the matter. Recently a new publicity campaign was launched but no immediate reaction is discernible. It seems that tribal authorities are keen enough to ask for classrooms but when it comes to the rest of their obligations such as the negotiations for a favourable price with a contractor and the making good of any financial shortfall between the allocation and the builder's price , there is considerable delay, reluctance and apathy. This not only retards the scheme as a whole but also "freezes" money which could have been made available to some other tribal authority, able and willing to meet its obligations. I would appeal to members to activate the tribal authorities - or the school committees in their areas to participate more robustly in the scheme. I would also reiterate what has been said before , namely that discussions by representatives of a tribal authority or a school committee with the officials of my department, responsible for the administration of the scheme , would always be very welcome in order to clarify matters relating to the scheme .
devote 70 % of the money earmarked for building works to post primary and higher education. I doubt whether a similar emphasis on higher education exists anywhere else in the world . This emphasis is, of course , nothing new in the Transkei Government. Since its inception by far the greater percentage of the monies voted for building funds were utilised in providing school buildings. This year will see the commencement of the building of the Maluti High and Training School , the Butterworth Traning School and the first stage of the rebuilding of St. John's College . Numerous secondary schools will be enlarged whilst a few new ones will also be commenced. Three depots of my department as well as the Government Garage will also be completed. The largest project which will be commenced is undoubtedly the new administrative building. It will only be completed in about 3% years. During April of this year the new Justice Block was occupied . The Transkei can be justly proud of such a building, incorporating as it does many modern building features , modern building materials and modern services. One of these is the central heating system which, however, will become operative only after the main administrative block , the next phase of the complex, has advanced far enough for the boiler plant to be put into commission. Each of the Courts has its own separate heating system connected to the main plant but arranged in such a way that it will also provide ventilation during summer months . Another feature which has been mentioned on other occasions is the extensive use in the building of indigenous timber. In fact, the Courts are panelled, floored and furnished entirely in indigenous timber consiting of locally grown and processed stinkwood , yellow wood, blackwood, saligna and pine . The
All Government installations and buildings require to be repaired and renovated and Subhead L, General Maintenance , places the department in financial standing to do this work. The overall provision under this subhead is slightly less than last year's figure . Although both the costs of maintaining electrical and water installations and the number of such installations are slowly increasing, every effort is made to keep repair cost down to the minimum and hence no increase to funds for this sub-item has been found to be necessary.
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the Minister of Roads and Works. Someone whispered in my ear that I would rise to support the policy speech , but I shall not support it even though the hon. Minister is my close relative. (Laughter) I will start by saying that she is holding a very important and very difficult department among these government departments , because this is very closely allied to roads and transport, and both those developments are essential in the advancement of any country. I will add to the words of congratulation extended to the former Minister of this department. He was very patient and considerate in regard to some of the difficult problems found in this department. One would find it difficult to say which is the most difficult branch of this department. We are not directly in the department as such, but the workers in the department report that various matters are great problems. This is the department which usually dismisses a great number of its workers , even more than any other department. However , we do not maintain that if employees are not doing their work satisfactorily they should not be replaced, but it cannot be denied that an employer who is constantly dismissing his employees will eventually find it difficult to obtain labourers . An employer who is popular with the people is one who is patient and considerate and is not hasty in dismissing employees. Here is a matter I would like to place my finger on, even though it is not characteristic of this department alone that we have no report placed at our disposal even in the library about the activities of this department . I shall not direct this to the hon. Minister in charge , however , as this is her first year of assumption of duty. Even though she is my sister , if she does not carry out her duties properly next year I shall not hesitate to criticize her severely . (Laughter) I note in the Estimates that most of the officials in this department are European seconded officials from the Republic . Although that is the case with all the departments to a certain extent, the number is greatest in this department. There are more than 60 senior officials in this department and we would that these posts were filled by African employees . It is noteworthy that efforts are being made to see that a number of African apprentices are being enrolled in the government garages , but when we look into the numbers we find there are still only a few of these apprentices. It would be better if we had at least fifteen instead of the three we have at the present moment who have been appointed, especially as on page 20 of the policy speech there is a cry about the shortage of mechanics in the department . Yes, the department is aware of this shortage but we hope it will be made good by the employment of African officials . We are happy to note that there are learner engineering technicians who will soon take up duties, but we still have very few of these and we do not know what the cause of this is.
Having regard to the nature , extent and diversity of repairs and renovations that have to be made to buildings of all sorts and sizes , the funds required for the purpose continue to be difficult to estimate as so many unforeseen repair problems arise when a job is tackled. This year a larger number of schools requiring repairs and renovations has been included in addition to the usual number of Magistrates ' Courts , the Bunga building and certain buildings of St. John's College. Funds are also provided for the upkeep , cleaning and the general good order of Government and hired buildings . The increase under this sub- item is mainly the result of additional Government buildings . Subhead M covers rent , rates , water , electicity and other municipal charges. These costs continue to increase owing to the greater usage of water and electricity , the rates of which have also been increased . Charges for rented buildings have also increased slightly.
The maintenance and repair of the large number of machinery, plant, equipment and tools in use by the department is inherent in the operation of such mechanical items and consequently adequate provision must be made for this purpose . Subhead N provides the funds which have had to be increased by some R41,000 . The intensity and severity of repairs to be carried out by the mechanical workshop on road vehicles , plant, machinery, etc. , as well as machinery used by the building section and other departments has increased considerably. The amounts required include the cost of materials and labour. The shortage of mechanics has forced the department to utilise the more costly services of the contractors to the State in order to cope with all the maintenance and repairs. The third major function performed by the department is provision of transport to keep the wheels of the Government moving, without which transport the Government cannot function. Subhead O reflects an increase of R123,000 arising mainly from the large number of vehicles to be replaced as well as the financing of operational costs. To some extent this also reflects the continued development of the Transkei. The amount provided under the subhead also includes running costs which are steadily rising in keeping with the general rise of transport costs throughout the Republic of South Africa. It is estimated that some 5,351,000 miles will be travelled during the year. This represents an increase of 575,000 miles and is attributable mainly to greater activity and development in some of the departments. Mr. Chairman, with these remarks I now move the adoption of Vote 6 of the Estimates .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How can we force them to apply? Are you going to hunt for these people all over the country? You must do your duty there .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond , Mr. Chairman.
CHIEF NDAMASE : The Government should go out and look for people . That is the Government's work, to find suitable people.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a few comments relative to the policy speech of the hon.
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road. Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you to grant me a little more time on this.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you are discouraging them. You say the Whites must You cannot have it remain in these posts . both ways .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We have a long list of sepakers from the Opposition side. There are nine of them.
CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Chief Minister says I maintain we should retain the European employees here. I still hold that opinion but I further maintain there should be African employees side by side with them. (Interjections) I have already remarked that this is a very important department, seeing that it is in charge of roads and transport in the Transkei , but you will find as you move round the reserves that the people are complaining about the bad state of their roads. Some of the roads which were formerly scheduled under the Territorial Authority have not been included in the schedule of this department, especially those leading to the residences of the paramount chiefs and to other important administrative areas . Yes , the roads have been gravelled, but we still have a number of these roads which have not been gravelled. The roads are merely graded over and when the rains come they become muddy and our cars cannot travel easily. Even on the gravelled roads it is often found that the stones are not crushed sufficiently and it is left to the cars to do the work. One of the things most needed on our roads is signposts indicating the direction of the road and the dangers . Attempts have been made , especially as regards direction of the road, but as far as danger signs are concerned nothing has been done . As regards these danger signs , one should remember that with the gravelled roads the surface becomes very slippery in wet seasons . Even in dry weather one can have dry skids on the roads . There are roads scheduled under the tribal authorities which are maintained by those authorities . There was a circular from the Government to the effect that any tribal authorities desiring to use graders could hire them from the Government. The
CHIEF NDAMASE : Could you not grant me the same indulgence in regard to time as you did other speakers on these Votes ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , seeing that the hon. member represents the Leader of the Opposition I move that the rule be suspended in order to give him a little more time , but not more than 15 minutes . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. the Chief Minister for his sympathy and hope he will continue to have the same sympathy in future . (Laughter ) The Vote for Roads and Works should have more money allocated to it. This Vote was usually subsidized by the Republican Government. We would like the Government to make representations to the Republican Government to subsidize this Vote for the following reasons : In the Transkei the roads are used by tourists to a large extent. The tourists visit the seaside resorts on the coast in large numbers and the buses belonging to the Republican Government use these roads too. Further, the factories making the equipment used for the maintenance of these roads will be taxed, which means that the cost of equipment will rise. Let us come to building services now. In this connection there is something which puzzles me . In the Umtata municipal area most of the money is expended in the building of secondary schools and the technical college. I thought there was a regulation to the effect that each employer must pay a fee of 20 Where does this money go to? or 30 cents . In other municipal areas improvements are paid for out of this money and we would like to know what happens to the money in Umtata because there are no grants from the Municipality of Umtata to the Transkei Government. Apart from the Village Management Board in Umtata there are no facilities for such other boards outside Umtata . A statement was made to the effect that the tribal authorities are slow in taking up the grants from the Government for the carrying out of different works . This is due to lack of knowledge , especially on the part of the heads of the authorities. They ought to invite tenders for different works , but they do not know exactly how to go about this . I would advise the Government to invite tenders for these jobs , then advise the authorities of the tenders received and ask them to apply for any of them . That, I think, would hasten the advancement of the building projects. Referring to the erection of schools in the outside areas by the Government, perhaps the Government has indicated how the work should be carried out. Sometimes we have this difficulty · that the Government states how much money they have on hand for a particular job and they ask the
graders referred to are those drawn by oxen or tractors. We have had a drought and the drought is still continuing. What shall we use to draw these graders , as the oxen have died? We appeal to the Government to lend these graders to tribal authorities . In fact, the roads scheduled for tribal authorities are not long or many and it is not likely that the graders will be occupied for long on those roads . We would like this department to take a general survey of the whole of the Transkei and find out if there are any parts which require roads built through them. I will mention just one of the areas which I know does require roads through it, although I do not know about the whole of the Transkei. There is an unfortunate area between Libode and Lusikisiki , especially from Lusikisiki along the Umzimvubu River to the north. THE CHIEF MINISTER : road.
That is a national
CHIEF NDAMASE : There is one good bridge that I know of in that area and that is near Port St. John's , but there should be a road between Libode and Lusikisiki through Zibungu connecting directly with the Libode/Umtata 209.
local authority to increase that by a certain amount, with a statement to the effect that if the authority does not add a subsidy to that amount they will withdraw the grant. Then you get statements , especially during the electioneering campaigns, that the Government will put up schools for the people and the people need not make any contribution . As a result the people do not make contributions . · There are places where the Government undertakes the erection of the complete building, especially where the Government has a candidate , and then they say to the candidates : Go to the Government and say you will join the governing party and a school will be built for you. (Laughter) We realise this is a short cut towards getting a school for any area, but it is not a good thing because there is deceit in it. The amount of the subsidy for erecting classrooms has been increased from R1,350 to R1,600 and we hope the Government will increase this amount further because of the present sales tax imposed by the Republican Government. We would like the amount to be increased to R2,000 per classroom because a contractor may raise the figure to R1,900 per classroom and say he cannot help it on account of the cost of building materials being increased . We appeal to the hon. Minister to take special note of these matters in the Transkei .
about these platannas. At the time when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt there were platannas whose minds were turned backwards all the time and they started doubting and criticizing and they did not reach the proEven now in mised land but died en route. the previous Assembly the Opposition members were more numerous but they are gradually becoming fewer and fewer. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member referred to the dismissal of employees in this department. The people must be made aware that they are employed and if they fail to carry out their duties properly they must be dismissed. If the hon. member had a herdboy who did not look after his flock properly he would dismiss him and he knows that. However, I would make this appeal to the hon. Minister . In Umzimkulu area we have a road leading through large reserves and villages. We would like the hon. Minister to send a unit to put that road in good order because during rainy seasons that road cannot be used for three days or more by people who go to the government offices . Here is another appeal I would place before the hon. Minister. The clerks in these offices complain that they suffer from cold as a result of the poor structure of their offices . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , speaking with profound grief and deep indignation, I am glad that I am speaking on this policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works because that is a department in which I worked for about three years when I was demoted from the Department of Justice . (Laughter) Imagine a teacher being transferred to Roads ! I see in front of me here a document. (Laughter) It has got 21 pages , or divide 21 by 3 and it has seven pages. What can one call such a document?
MR. S.L. BALENI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand to support the policy speech of the hon. Minister. First of all , I will appeal to the members of the Opposition not to waste time, seeing that we have a lot of work to do. Time wasted never returns . I will come to the modern method of erecting schools. The Department of Roads and Works has done amazing work in a very short time in such a manner that the platannas in our area of Umzimkulu who were opposed to the government policy lost their deposits because the people have seen beautiful method of erecting public schools by this Government for their children. Let me come now to the roads . Our roads are amazingly good now in the Transkei . Formerly we travelled on horseback , riding for 48 hours to visit the town. We are now using cars and the very modern cars are used in the Transkei . We are very proud of our Transkei and the way it is carrying out its administrative work. I also want to inform the members of the Opposition that we on the Government side are able to see all the jackal tricks they are using to try to ruin our good work. And why? - Because we are the chosen of God . ( Laughter) I am
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: "cobwebby". (Laughter)
Call it
MR. MGUDLWA : First I would like to say I will go very thoroughly into this department's work. Seeing I have paid an admission of guilt for these five days that I was sent out of the House (Laughter) I would like you to give me a new deal or an extension of time. I will begin by referring to the administrative side of the department. I note that the hon. Minister does not appear to be ready to carry out this work and as I look at the former Minister I note he was doing the work when I was in that department. You can see this by looking at the facial expression of the person when he looks sideways as I say this . (Laughter ) Let me now refer to the administrative side . Other than the chief Secretary I note there is a Secretary who is in charge of this department and I note there are various departments under him . There are also two chief clerks and numerous other clerks in the administrative services and as I look closely into this I find there are still quite a number of European officials in the top management bloc . If you were sincere in your policy we wonder why that is so , because we have a number of African officials who should have been promoted to fill these posts . Why is that so? We wish the hon. Minister to take special note
not saying anything about these platannas who will be told when they get to Heaven: Go thou in that direction. (Laughter) The speaker on the Opposition side referred to the employment of Africans in the posts now held by European officials . We know that very well without being advised by him. What we want is that the people must have training for the jobs they do. We do not want to mess things up. Formerly we had cars without hooters that made a noise like "Karooga " . We no longer (Laughter) have such cars today because we have modern vehicles . We ask the hon. members not to be critical when there is no cause to be so. As I said, we would save much time. Don't worry 210.
and pregnant as his utterances would have been , it is most unfortunate that all his utterances and philosophy....
of these matters. If you look at the employment side of the department you will find the salary paid to the senior clerk in that department is just half that paid to the senior clerk in the Republican Government. I wish the hon. Minister would not bring to us a short speech such as she has done because we don't want to listen
MR. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, are we in order? I would like to know, please . MR. NDZUMO: ...are based on very baseless grounds.
to such short speeches . We have not come to play marbles here . Referring to the roads I shall start with Engcobo area where I had a mandate from the electorate . It is necessary that you should send the Government official in that area to inspect the road from Engcobo to Sundwana through Qebe area. Again, from Idutywa to Engcobo through Mbekeni, Egoso and Xonye. He will find huge rocks on that road. They are just at the side of the road but we are being told the road is being gravelled. This small policy speech says so. There is another road passing close to the hon. Mr. Kutu's place which is in very bad repair . Iwish your department would take note of these things , especially with reference to the roads . There is this question which I will reiterate : What are the qualifications of the senior roads foremen? You find some driver/operators have only a J.C. qualification and you get to a clerk in one of these offices who has a matric qualification. You will find the senior officer there being a man who is perhaps not qualified beyond Std. 4 (Laughter) just because he is a European. We would like you to take note of these matters because this procedure leads to disobedience and a cheeky attitude because a better qualified person usually feels he cannot be ruled by an unqualified one. We would like people's qualifications to be taken into account and not the colour of his skin in these appointments. Let me now refer to the erection of school buildings. I was actually employed in the department dealing directly with the construction of these school buildings . There are several committees in this department and we would like to know whether there are any African members in these committees who are being trained to take over the work of these committees . Who is the African in these committees , if there is one at all ? I was in the employ of that department for nearly three years and whatever knowledge I had when I was employed there , when I left I did not know anything. (Laughter)
MR. ZIBI : your ruling.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am under the impression that your question would have been proper if it was the Opposition that was addressing the House.
MR . ZIBI:
Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
MR. NDZUMO: To continue , Mr. Chairman, apart from that he should have referred to the rules , if there is any rule about that. The irony of all his leadership in his policy is that he is confusing his followers. I had a disagreeable surprise from the last speaker onthe Opposition side. He was criticizing the faces of members and his speech was based solely on the facial features of the hon. Minister and the ex-Minister. He is of the opinion that this hon. Minister, because of her facial features (I take it, her handsome facial features) will not be able to lead the department. That was diametrically opposed to the hon. member for Ngqeleni who eulogized the hon. Minister . All this criticism is sheer The work that is fuss and a waste of time. done for Roads and Works is a necessary work and it is said by the Opposition that the Roads and Works Department is ill-managed. This came particularly from the hon. member for Engcobo. He talked of half- salaries ofthe clerks in the Transkei compared with the salaries in the Republican Government. Be that as it be , hé should know that the Republican Government is elderly and we are mere financial toddlers . He should not imagine that we shall compare ourselves with the father while we are still He also referred to bad financial toddlers . roads , I suppose in his area of Engcobo. He did not take cognizance of the fact that because of the heavy-duty vehicles that are running more and more in the Transkei there cannot be any perfect roads , especially trivial roads like the Engcobo roads . In saying this I am trying to adumbrate the degree of foolishness as far as the Opposition Party is concerned . In the first instance , before we took over all these departNow ments were run by the White people . they seem to regret that this duty is being taken over by the African people . It is strange to find that our end is the same , but the means are the only difference. In their heart of hearts they know that the ideal is independence , with the governing party as much as it is with them. The graders used to be operated and driven by European people and now are being managed and driven by African people and the drivers of all these vehicles in the Transkei are mostly, if not all , Bantu people. (Interjections)
The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 6 of the Appropriation Bill was resumed. MR. S.K. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is always interesting to listen to the criticisms of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He is a very typically constructive man and his speeches and his sophisticated utterances.... MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, are we qualified to carry on with the debate when the hon. Minister is not in the House?
MR. NDZUMO:
Mr. Chairman, please , I crave
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is a limit to tolerance.
But sophisticated as he is 211 .
Order, please .
MR. NDZUMO: They are shifting away the White people so that their places may be taken by Africans , and directly we arrive we shall supervise all these positions , but our progress all the time is being retarded by the Opposition Where we preach light they preach party. darkness ; where we want to enlighten our people they sow confusion in their areas . They have stabilized their areas and they wish.to stabilize their areas , but because they have so stabilized their areas they do not want other people to stabilize their administrative areas because they want, as they say, that we should be multi- racial. Multi-racialism will not lead us to independence . Very extensive works have been carried out by the Department of Roads and Works during Look at Umtata -- the the past five years. extension of mechanical shops , additional office accommodation for Agriculture and Forestry , new agricultural offices in Bizana , new office blocks at Cofimvaba , at Butterworth extension to the factory , and at Blythswood , improvements , technical school at Umtata , vocational school at Lusikisiki, beautiful ministerial residences and other offices and projects even at Willowvale . Unless all these people come together and embody the spirit of nationalism among the people we shall retard very slowly. When we make requests to the Government we should know that it should be for the purpose of progress and labourers are the people we should cater for in these departments. We should come together and assist the Government and we should try the best we can to cater for all in the best interests of progress . Requests should be made , for instance , that labourers should be put to work as closely as possible to their residential areas , that married people working on these roads be adequately conveyed to and from their places of residence .
post? He possesses the correct certificate for the post, he carries out his duties proficiently, but it is stated that he is employed out of adjustment, an expression that I do not understand the meaning of. Now we come to transport services, which is a branch of the department. We would like the hon. Minister to take special note of these things which we are placing before her. An owl which has very sharp eyes is able to survive but an owl which has no vision will die as a result of its lack of vision. (Laughter) On one occasion at Engcobo the driver of an XG vehicle almost rode over me. He turned in front of the bakery and loaded loaves of bread in company with his own wife. He did not know who I was and when I pointed out to him this accident which nearly took place his wife said : "What is wrong with this Native male ?" (Laughter) I asked whether she had an indemnity certificate as she had referred to me in the manner she had and the husband asked me to excuse him when I told him I belonged to the Mgudlwa family at Qumanco and I told him I was a member ofthe TLA in addition. (Laughter) His wife kept quiet. We do not like to see these XG vehicles used for fishing trips to the sea. We see these things because we have sharp eyes. We are not Special Branch people but whatever has beenpurchased from African public funds we are watching very closely. We have several committees in this department - housing committees , works committees and so on - but in all of them there is not a single African member . If the purpose is to train the people we would like the hon . Minister to take special note that there are African people in these departments and we would like them to be taught those things about which they know nothing, not that when a person has knowledge of what he is doing trouble should be taken to see that he loses that knowledge . (Laughter) Iknowthis specially, that nobody will milk into the pail belonging to a different family . We know that the reason why these seconded officials do not take the trouble to educate and train the African is because of this special allowance given to them . We say this special allowance should be stopped. I am thinking of the rental I used to pay when I was in this department . I think it was very nearly the same as that paid by the highest seconded officials . With those words I would like the hon. Minister to take special note of the remarks I have made .
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is gratifying to listen to a person speaking nonsense , (Laughter) but it is a painful thing for nonsense to waste time instead of time throwing out nonsense. Before I forget , in connection with the roads at Engcobo there is a road from Engcobo to Sigqumeni going through Mnyolo over Zabazi Hill and I would like attention to be given to that road. That road is especially bad. It carries a lot of traffic , especially of government vehicles , and I am sure the hon. Minister will agree with me because she knows we have several schools in that area. To come back to the Department of Roads and Works , I note it is mentioned that we have not got fully qualified architects . In her policy speechthe hon. Minister said the department is still experiencing a shortage of thoroughly qualified workmen for certain specific trades and senior skilled road staff. My experience in that department is that people who possess certificates for skilled work are employed as semi- skilled labourers. What is actually required in order to be classed as a skilled labourer except the certificate you possess ? We know from the accounts here that there are posts for senior workmen and we are further informed that there are no qualified applicants for these posts , and it is maintained that you can only be employed on a temporary basis. He is employed against a post of senior workman out of adjustment. What does it mean when it refers to a person employed in that
CHIEF B. HOLOMISA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am not standing up to talk nonsense. I am very sorry that the hon. members have said something against what has been stated in this policy speech. I stand up to support the statement by the hon. Minister. I believe most of the members in the House did not expect the hon. Minister to give such a statement because they do not think a woman could rise up to such a standard. (Interjections) If you say it was I who did not expect it, I agree with you. I did not visit the place you allege I went to. What I say to you is that you should be proud that a woman should be able to rise up to that standard. I am not in a tribal meeting but in the Legislative Assembly. You will accept the fact that we attend the Legislative Assembly to relieve people of their difficulties. We have 212 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members must please discuss the Vote in question. Confine your remarks to that and nothing else .
experienced certain difficulties in the administrative areas which cannot be solved by any man. Everything has been explained to you in connection with good living and bad living. I was pleased when the hon. Chief Ndamase said that the hon. Minister was his sister but they would come to some disagreement in this House. I know he did not expect the hon. Minister to give such a grand statement. The hon. chief from Butterworth wants to interrupt all the time. I wish he would go outside . I withdraw from the statement I made which was directed to what he said. The reason why I stood up here now is that we also have requests to place before the hon. Minister. There are certain things you have mentioned which we should not object to . We also have roads which require attention, roads similar to those you have mentioned. We are not concerned with your question when you ask what we are talking about. The hon. member on the Opposition side spoke about roads leading to the chiefs' places . We only hope we shall also be granted roads leading to the chief's place when opportunity allows. The hon. Minister has shown that she is going to make some progress . You desire that we should not speak the truth. Allow the people of the country to make progress . You believe that we are fighting against the people. You must not think that you are representing the people and on this side we are fighting the people. We also represent the interests of the people. You will note that there are many places which also require some attention. In Elliotdale district there are certain localities which need assistance from the Minister. I have just forgotten the name of that locality. Sometimes when we say something that should be followed by the people they will not follow but just forget about it, but you did not expect that this hon. Minister could make such a very good delivery of a policy speech . You Transkei citizens must admit that even a woman is able to give a good thing. I have nothing more to say.
MR. ZIBI: A federation of Bantustans in African nationalism . Coming to the debate , Mr. Chairman, the trouble with the Government side is that they anticipate criticism, so that even if there is no criticism they still think we are criticizing. I am happy that at least the hon. Minister has sufficient education to see through that folly , and no amount of praise for our leader this side , that he is constructive and so on, will make us not to criticize when we ought to, nor is it going to create a rift between us and himself. I am only hoping that the hon. the Minister of this department will at least have done maths at matric level so that she will not play the role of a cypher in her department as was the case with some of her predecessors . When we discuss policy we are discussing on general terms but it is surprising to hear members of the Government side coming to say: You people are saying this , that and the other about the Minister's speech - when we have not done so, except that they anticipate what we are going to say and they start attacking us on what we have not said. I am hoping the hon. Minister will look around the 26 districts of the Transkei and see that things are proportionately done in all the districts , because the feeling of the ordinary man today in the Transkei is that there is the Tembuland region and the Qaukeni region and they are priority with the Transkei Government. We believe the hon. Minister as has already been indicated here is planning a scheme in the Dalindyebo region and we hope she will do likewise in all the regional areas that need attention. We want to see that every district has its works . We have always worried about the clerical side but now we have also got to worry about the ordinary worker on the roads. Let the hon . Minister remember that these people digging our roads today are making a'living at that and therefore they should be paid to be able to support their families. Of course we have time and again harped on the note of considering the clerical staff because we are aware that at times it does happen that a clerk is promoted to a higher grade, kept there and is not paid the wages of that higher grade. There is the question of putting up schools in different regions or districts and I assume you have sent out the directive (or perhaps it is the Department of Education) that the job must be completely done , and without sufficient water supplies it is difficult to get the job finished when it should be . I wish to refer to the Lehana Secondary School in the Matatiele In that school there is , of course , the area. addition of tanks to meet the need for water, but they are rain supplied so that when the season is dry it means there is no feeding of the tanks. You should open a borehole to feed the scheme. These departments are so interwoven that when we discuss the policy of one department we are bound to make reference I wish to refer for example to to another. speed- cops now. They arrest us on the road. It would appear that they concentrate mostly on Africans . I am aware of cases )they may not be in the Transkei because I have travelled all
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , let me dismiss something that has been repeatedly harped on by members of the Government side . They speak of African nationalism and have been telling us time and again about this thing. African nationalism seeks to say "Africa for the Africans " exclusively. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Nonsense ! Where have you come from ? That is PAC .
MR. ZIBI : Now, ifyou want to mistake African nationalism for " apartheid" then you are mistaking an opinion for a truth. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: interpretation.
That is the wrong
That is the interpretation you MR. ZIBI: gave us here. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please.
MR. ZIBI : In any event, don't for a moment think that African nationalism is "apartheid". Definitely not ! (Interjections )
213.
Government and I would ask the members of the Opposition to cross the floor and join our ranks because from 1963 this Government has worked consistently. You know that your numbers have dropped lower and lower and your arguments have weakened. You are just making a noise.
around) when your car is stopped , you are told to start your car and then apply the handbrake. There is also the question ofpeople being stopped for overloading. You find an African who ought to have six passengers in the car and he has seven and at the same time a European car passes with about ten people in it → the same kind of car.
MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is a happy occurrence that the hon. Minister will be responsible for this department for the next five years. You have taken note of the remarks made by your brother, by your fathers and by your uncles. (Laughter) I would like you to take a special and last word from the senior member that I am. If you look at Vote 6.A of the Estimates you will see that there is a salary payable to yourself and likewise the salaries of the staff of your department. I would like you to note specially that there is nothing here about the wages paid to unskilled labourers in your department. You have totally forgotten them, whereas the importance of your department rests entirely on the services of those unskilled labourers and when you do consider them you unfortunately pay them a very low wage for their services . I wish you to note that their rate of pay is 2 cents an hour , which works out at 25 cents a day, whereas those are the people who are looking after the safety of all the people in the Transkei , especially of your department. They build the roads on which the car you use runs. They start their work at 7 o'clock in the morning, no matter what the weather, and work until 5 o'clock however cold the weather may be, but I note you have entirely forgotten them in the salary scales of your department.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: That is the result of multi -racialism , for which you stand. MR. ZIBI : In fact, there is no such thing as overloading a car as long as they are not hanging outside. (Interjections) We are therefore appealing to you to see to some of these things . There are certain cases with cars (let me canvass this further) when your car is scratched and it is stopped and you are taken off the road while a worse -off car driven by a European person is allowed to go through. Of late, too, members of the police force are also allowed to arrest people. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Where is all this? MR. ZIBI : In the Transkei. Further, Madam, when it comes to the question of schools , the Department of Education circulates the districts that they are responsible for putting up a certain type of school and at the time the circular is out one tribe has a levy on in an effort to put up a certain school. Naturally that demoralizes the people when they are told the Government is going to put up a school. CHIEF M.E. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. I realise that though we are talking quite a lot, much has been accomplished even by the previous Minister. You must not forget that these roads cannot be made in one day. There is a request for a road leading from Luthubeni and we request that the Government should assist in connection with that road. The action taken by the Government is praiseworthy. We should be thankful for the work that has been done by the Government. Similarly, we have a request from people in our area for a road from Luthubeni to Zithulele Hospital. We are thankful for the statement made by the hon. Minister in connection with the Dalindyebo region and we know the Government has an eye on some other places which have not yet been attended to. We have a sensible Government which has the interests of the people at heart. Eventhe Opposition appreciates the work they has been performed by the Government though they will still criticize . I have already stated that the Government is worthy of praise . As far as the schools are concerned this Government has done quite a lot of work. A number of secondary schools have been established and this is further proof that the Government knows its duty. Another request which we would place before the department is in connection with buildings. The Government should put up buildings which are high up. There is another request in connection with the road leading from Elliotdale to Mncwasa. I have already stated that we have a sensible
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , the hon. member is misleading the House when he says they are paid 25 cents a day. They are paid 55 cents a day . MR. MNYILA: Perhaps your labourers at Qaukeni are paid 55 cents . I would like to refer to you again, my darling child.... (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have already asked the hon. members to refer to each other as "hon. member". MR. MNYILA : I would like to refer to you, hon. Minister, but you are also my child and I must also speak to you as a loving father. CHIEF P. JOZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, we have for a long time been putting up with this. We should not allow an hon. Minister to be referred to as "my child" or "my darling".
MR. MNYILA: These parents who have no love and no sympathy are interfering too much. We who have children cannot help ourselves . You must have sympathy with us. We are being persuaded by our sympathetic feelings. I would like to say to the hon. Minister that the people who are speaking very favourably about your predecessor are misleading you because what they say is not true to the facts. In the previous debates in this House I constantly referred to 214 .
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move an amendment that the salary of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works be reduced by R2,000 , although I note that what remains, namely R2,200 is still quite a substantial amount. When one notes the number of unemployed people in the Transkei because of the low Vote of this department , it compels us to move a reduction in the Minister's salary . The hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni says the wage level is 55 cents a day and he maintains that is a very good wage . Inote that his fatherly feelings are affecting him. I will only be satisfied that the labourers on the roads are receiving a good wage when they reach R20 a month, because I think of the people who work in places like Core Town where they earn up to R75 and R80 a month. Those are the unskilled labourers in those places. It is for that reason that so many people want to go to Cape Town, because of the wage level in that area. In his speech the hon. the Chief Minister said that defaulting tax-payers would now be forced to pay their arrears . I would like to know how the people whose wages are 55 cents a day can manage to pay their taxes . It will always appear as though the people do not want to pay their taxes , whereas they want to meet their commitments to the Government. The unskilled labourers on these roads ought to be well fed because they work hard. It is for that reason that so many of these labourers fail to do their work properly, because they are said then to have either phthisis or some other disability. Let us stop paying the huge salary to the six Ministers of the Transkei , when all the other people are dying. Some of the hon. Ministers receive a salary that even exceeds that of the paramount chiefs ' because of certain special allowances. The hon. member here mentioned that some of the Ministers ' cars are used on fishing expeditions.
the Ministers to think of the unskilled labourers in this department. It would be a very good thing if you could speak to your senior officials to consider the wages paid to the unskilled labourers so that they are paid at least 10 cents an hour as that would help them. These people would like to educate their children but they cannot because their living wage is so low that they can only afford to fill their empty stomachs. We appeal to you to consider these people. If you paid them at the rate of 10 cents an hour it means they would be earning R1 per day. We appeal to you in this respect. If you were a man I would not be saying what I am saying. I say this repeatedly because I know that, like a mother , you will have sympathy with your labourers . Here is another fact I would like to tell you : You must not be controlled by your Secretary. It must be you who must give instructions and directions . Like a new officer, that is what you must do. You have a lot of White secretaries behind you. Mix them up with African officials in pursuance of your separate development policy. You will achieve the end of that policy if you gradually raise the African to the senior posts in this department . There are very many educated Africans outside here. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the House will agree with me that we have canvassed this Vote sufficiently. I shall now close the debate and call upon the hon. Mr. Majija to move his amendment. Mr. Chairman, I move MR. G.G. KUTU: the amendment in the name of the hon. Mr. Majija who is not well . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the handling of a motion or an amendment by somebody else is only permissible in the case of absent persons. The hon. member for Engcobo , Mr. Majija , is present in this House , although during the last second or two he has been feigning illness. In any event, there is no provision in the rules whereby a present member can be represented by another person in moving an amendment.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : the Ministers ' cars .
MR. MAJIJA : I mean the XG cars. On a certain night when I had taken a sick person for medical attention I found one XG car attending a beauty cometition at All Saints ' . (Laughter) When I inquired where the Minister was the person from whom I made the inquiry merely pointed into the building. I waited there until 10 o'clock for the medical practitioner to attend to the patient. I asked one person when the car left the contest and he said it was early in the morning . (Laughter)
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , because of my ill -health I asked the hon. Mr. Kutu to move this amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Under what rule? MR . L.L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, I think according to the rules any member can authorize any other member to move his motion.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: be outside the Vote.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Under what rule?
That seems to
The roads are in very bad MR. MAJIJA : repair. There are stones thrown along these roads and the stones hit the cars to such an extent that you think they are being thrown at you. Reference has been made to low causeways over the streams . I shall not say much about these causeways because at one time I visited the Department of Roads and Works but I was satisfied with the reply I received from them. My reason for bringing this amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary
MR. MGUDLWA : In writing. Is the hon. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: member withdrawing his amendment ? MR. MAJIJA: No , Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : then ?
He never said
Will you move,
215.
ว
is because of the failure of the former Minister who did not do his work well. (Laughter) We want to punish the present Minister because of the failings of her predecessor . (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, please make them allow me to speak.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
OPPOSITION MEMBER: The motion was not seconded. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It was seconded. I shall now ask the Minister to reply. I wish to appeal to the hon. members to maintain the dignity of the House by their silence. To the spectators in the gallery I think they take it that this is just a royal time we have here , and it is not something serious enough. These interruptions are really uncalled for.
Order , please.
MR. MAJIJA: We are making a request that in all the areas which have accepted rehabilitation a jackal -proof netting should be attached on these fences to protect small stock in particular. MR. G.G. KUTU : the amendment.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this is one time when I say that the fact that I am wearing skirts has put me in a favourable position. Apparently, among members on both sides I have aunts , brothers, uncles , grandpas and so There was even an endearment, which forth .
Mr. Chairman, I second
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ishall allow only one more speaker and then hon. Minister may reply .
I say is under question. ( Laughter) Well, in replying to you I will just deal with what I First of all I regard as outstanding points . will deal with the question of expulsions . The Department of Roads and Works has the largest number of employees. From this simple fact there should be more dismissals - that is, Further, there is a comparatively speaking. tendency on the part of employees to assume that since the Government is Black the usual standard of work need not be high. The department tries to exercise patience in the question of dismissals and it is only when gross inefficiency, dereliction of duty , misconduct or conviction on a criminal offence that one gets dismissals . Many dismissals result from theft. The department takes a serious view and will canvass no political advantage by relaxing its efforts to stamp out the cancer of theft. Coming now to the question of shortage of mechanics , the department is always prepared to accept those people who come forward as apprentices. The hon. members can be of great help by informing the department about the state of affairs as I am sure you are all keen to see the department on its feet, having as many applicants as possible , so you should also play your part in persuading people to tackle these avenues of employment. Mention was also made by one of the hon. members in connection with labour registration fees. Labourers ' registration fees are utilized for local purposes in the residential areas of the Africans. The building of schools is not a municipal funcition but a State function, as is the case everywhere . The allegation that qualified men are used as semiskilled labourers is true in the sense that when all the posts were filled there were people looking for work, pleading hunger. They should have been turned away but we offered work in vacant posts of semi- skilled labourer. This employment they accepted voluntarily, rather The allegation that labourers than starve . receive 25 cents a day is not true. After a year's continuous service the labourers who start at about 55 to 60 cents receive an increment of 5 cents a day and may rise up to R1 a day, but at times you will find there is no continuous service . You find a man working for three months and then he breaks off and then he comes There should be continuous to work again. Then there was also a point that service. labourers ' wages are not shown on the Esti-
MR . MAJIJA : Excuse me , Mr. Chairman, what about my seconder ? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: He has seconded you. That is enough. Mr. Chairman MRS. Z.A. MZOZOYANA : and hon. members , I associate myself with the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Roads. It is a ridiculous thing when a person moves an amendment and before he even starts speaking he finds he has nothing to say. I think today time has been wasted because the policy statement made by the hon. Minister was acceptable to everyone. If a man is being overpowered by another man he should surrender. I have heard the hon. member say that people who work on the roads should be given an increase in their wages up to R10. I would tell him that some of the labourers already earn as much as Don't turn the clock backwards. The R26. hon. member for Maluti spoke about speed- cops and said they do this , that and the other . I think he is making a mistake because the speedcops are not part and parcel of the Roads I would advise him to make his Department. report to the office of the traffic department. The request I would refer to the hon. Minister is that all the roads which are directly under the local authorities should be taken over by her department so that the roads leading to the schools should be attended to in order to make it easy for the school inspectors and other officers to visit the schools , as well as the roads leading to the chiefs ' residences . There are many things which have to go before the chiefs. What else should I say? If I had wings I would fly, because I see one of the Ministers is a woman . I except at some future date we shall also have a Chief Minister who is a woman. (Laughter) Lastly, but not least, she has great responsibilities to carry and her salary should not be reduced but instead should be increased. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : hon. members ....
Mr. Chairman and
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall ask the hon. Minister to reply now. There will be no more speakers . 216.
WEDNESDAY , 21st MAY , 1969
mates. It is simply because they occupy nonpensionable posts , which are not included in the Estimates . There was a series of people who made requests in connection with various roads and I think the best thing for them to do is to approach the department. Finally, I will mention something in connection with speed- cops. At the present time we have no traffic police. These functions are observed by the South African Police and, in the case of Umtata Municipality, by the municipal traffic police . We expect to introduce Transkei control officers some time in the future . Finally, I would like to generalize - there is a tendency (and this is something which has been apparent throughout the debate on the various debates) and it looks as though the hon. members are of the feeling that things should be done for the people all the time. I wonder what kind of people you would that our nation should become , if all the time you expect them to fold their hands and raise up their heads looking for manna from Heaven? The Government is prepared at all times to offer help to the people . However, I feel that the people would be playing a major part , too , if those who are able -bodied would try and do things for themselves.
Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I now wish to appeal to you on behalf of this House that if the freezing of this House continues we shall all go home with terrible colds. I am doing it because you will notice that for most of the day yesterday I was absent. It was on account of this cold air which comes at my back here. Look at the hon. Minister next to me , with an overcoat on. That is a very bad sign, for hon. members to come to the Chamber with overcoats on. We would rather that you warm up this House so that when we come here we find it warm . It is now winter, it is not summer . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to report that the hon. member for Umzimkulu , Chief Morris Msingapantsi , is indisposed and is not able to attend the session today. We are all suffering from this cold. I will suggest that we adjourn.
THE MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
THE CHAIRMAN: The attention of those who are responsible for warming up this room will be drawn to the fact.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : Someone whispered that they want amenities from their taxes . Well, he must just fold his arms and do nothing for his family, and we shall see what will happen . Finally, Mr. Chairman , I move the adoption of Vote 6 .
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman , I rise to draw the attention of the House to what happened yesterday evening. The Chairman warned the House yesterday to behave in a manner appropriate and in keeping with the standard of the House. However, we were disappointed at the behaviour of one hon. member of this House acting in a manner which was not in keeping with the principles of this House . We appeal to you , therefore , that such behaviour may not occur again.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. The amendment that Vote 6 be reduced by R2,000 in respect of the Minister's salary was put and lost. The sum of R4,890,000 in respect of Vote 6, Roads and Works , was passed to stand part of the schedule .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , with reference to the remarks made by the last speaker , at the time the House had already been adjourned .
Cluases 1 to 4 of the Appropriation Bill were passed to stand part of the Bill.
NOTICE OF MOTION
The long title and the whole Bill put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice of motion to amend the Transkei Regional Authority Courts Bill by the deletion in Clause 2 ( 1 ) (b ) of the following words in the proviso:
House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Appropriation Bill has been accepted by the committee without amendment. THE CHAIRMAN: reading?
(a) in the Xhosa version : "unobhala nokokuba " ; (b) in the English version : " secretary or" ; and (c) in the Afrikaans version: " sekretaris of 'n " .
What day for the third
NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the third reading of this bill will be on Wednesday, 21st May, 1969 , or so soon thereafter . I propose that the House now adjourn until 11 a.m. tomorrow.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Thursday, the 22nd day of May, 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the payment of increased benefits to old age, blind and disabled pensioners in the Transkei.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday , 21st May, 1969 . 217.
TRANSKEI
APPROPRIATION BILL : READING
those members who may think this is high, let me reduce this figure to a percentage of the total of all taxes paid by all races . Eleven million Bantu persons paid approximately 3% of all taxes while Whites, Coloureds and Asiatics totalling 5,000,000 people paid the other 97%.
THIRD
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Appropriation Bill be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
On a per capita basis this means that the Bantu population of South Africa paid a fraction less than R3.50 in taxation per annum i.e. in all forms of direct and indirect taxation.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time .
From the same source of information it is apparent that spending by the government sector on services for the Bantu population throughout South Africa has increased faster, much faster , than the rate at which revenue from Bantu taxes has climbed. In 1964/65, according to the Bulletin, the total spending on services for the Bantu population of South Africa by the open sector including the Transkei Government was R215.2 million as against R4.3 million in 1929/ 30. According to the Bulletin spending in 1929/ 30 on the Bantu population was less than the amount obtained from taxation while in 1964/65 spending was nearly six times greater than the taxes received . I don't think that any of our citizens can, in the circumstances , have any reason for dissatisfaction if the proposed rates as tabled in this Assembly are put into operation next year, especially if regard is had to the fact that the new tax rates will yield even less in total than the present ones and will therefore leave more in the pockets of the tax-payer even if the new Republican sales tax which will affect the Transkei consumer to the extent of an estimated R1,000,000 per annum , is taken into reckoning .
COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House now goes into committee of ways and means. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, we shall now consider the taxation proposals by the hon. the Minister of Finance . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : man and honourable members
Mr. Chair-
In my budget statement I spoke at length on the changes proposed for the Taxation of Transkeian citizens , taxation.which, in this early stage of our development, must for very sound and practical reasons be on parallel lines to the taxation proposed for the citizens of the other homelands . I explained that there had been consultation with Republican authorities; I explained the circumstances which led to the proposed Pay-as-you-earn system for collecting the additional general tax ; I intimated that as from the 1st March, 1970 , no Bantu person would be liable for Income and Provincial Income Tax and that our citizens , especially the poorer section , could expect not inconsiderable tax relief.
Let me now return to the detail of the tax proposals . A.
Basic General Tax.
As I said before, the basic tax will be reduced from R3.50 to R2.50 per annum with effect from 1st March, 1970 , for every male between the ages of 18 and 65 who has not been exempted for one or other of the existing reasons . The tax will be in respect of a tax year instead of a calendar year as at present and will become due on the 1st March and payable before the 1st day of June each year.
The proposed new rates for general and additional general tax have been tabled and have , no doubt, been carefully studied by members . It is not difficult to see that they provide for a far more equitable distribution of the tax burden than do those which apply under the present laws , viz. the Income Tax Act, 1962 , and the Bantu Taxation and Development Act, 1925 , not only in that in most cases the taxpayers's liability will be less than at present but because the main tax burden will fall on the more well - to-do citizen while the poorer masses will not escape entirely their responsibility to the Government.
B.
Additional General Tax.
The rates for this tax based on income have been revised so as to abolish the present differentiation between males and females the incomes of man and wife will be taxed separately and not thrown together as is done when determining taxable income for purposes of calculating Income Tax. Thirdly, unlike the scales for Income Tax where separate scales apply for married and unmarried persons , there will be only one scale for additional general tax .
Allow me , Mr. Chairman, at this stage to quote a few figures from a recent issue of the monthly bulletin of the Africa Institute . For the 1964/65 fiscal year the Bantu population of South Africa, including the Transkei , paid a total of R38 million rand in direct and indirect taxes , including customs and excise duty, motor licences, road taxes , etc. Now, for the benefit of
Cognisance was taken of the new sales tax and the fact that Income Tax is to be abolished, when the scales were decided upon for the new additional general tax. These compare very favourably with those which apply to
218.
The abolition of income and provincial income tax was decided upon mainly because at present under the Bantu Taxation and Development Act of 1925 all additional general tax assessments are reduced by the amount of the assessed Income Tax due by a taxpayer. Besides this it was felt that to have two separate taxes , both based on income but quite differently caculable caused unnecessary confusion amongst taxpayers and would make P.A.Y.E. tables unduly complicated for employers.
Income Tax which will still be payable by the other race groups . Payers of Income Tax are of course also liable for (a) Provincial Income Tax which adds from 32 to 37% % to normal tax depending on the Province in which the taxpayer lives , (b) personal tax which can be as much as R36 p.a. and (c) a loan levy which for the 1968 assessment was 15% and , generally speaking Mr. Chairman , I believe that our citizens will be better off than their White , Coloured and Asiatic counterparts. I say this also because administrative difficulties will make it impracticable to include income received in natura in This is an important the taxable income . concession because , for example , citizens in domestic service will not be taxed on the value of accommodation, meals , etc. provided by an employer, neither will farmers be taxed on the value of livestock and farm produce not realised. This concession has never been made to payers of normal income tax.
P.A.Y.E. I propose that the additional general tax should become due and payable concurrently with accrual of income so that deductions can be made from salaries or wages by employers at source and paid over to the Government. In other words , a P.A.Y.E. system will operate and tax deductions by employers in respect of additional general tax will become obligatory . The system of compulsory deductions by employers should not , however , cover the collection of the basic tax of R2.50 per annum , as administrative costs would be prohibitive and out of all proportion to the amounts involved . Too many employers would become involved and over . 40 million transactions would have to be recorded annually in respect of all Bantu taxpayers in South Africa. Besides this it should be remembered that the basic tax is a tax based on the ability to earn rather than on income. Provision will be made , however, for the compulsory deduction from wages of arrears where possible .
On the other hand , Mr. Chairman, because determining accurately and confirming the number of children and the marital status of each employee would create further administrative encumbrances the present basis , whereby no rebates are made for children , will be retained. I say retained , because rebates have never been a feature of the additional general tax and I can only assume that the Republican authorities were confronted with the same difficulties as we have encountered when they saw fit not to provide for child rebates in the Bantu Taxation Development Act of 1925 which I propose we should repeal.
Deductions from salaries and wages will have to be made in accordance with tables to be published from time to time . Businessmen and other persons who derive by way of income any amount which does not constitute remuneration will become provisional taxpayers who will make provisional tax payments at six- monthly intervals .
Transkeian citizens will , as I said before , be exempted from normal and provincial income tax. They have never paid personal tax . Allow me in the circumstances to make a few comparisons of what the Transkei citizen will have to pay in additional general tax against what persons to whom the Income Tax Act will continue to apply, will be required to pay in taxation in terms of the new tariffs announced by Dr. the Honourable N. Diedericks in his budget speech in March .
I am prompted to say that the proposed tax changes will certainly assist in reducing arrests , prosecutions and attachments resulting from tax evasion. Furthermore it is essential that the Transkei should have its own taxation legislation which should be as simple as possible to administer and which WE will be able to amend here in this Assembly to suit our own particular circumstances as they may change from time to time . Mr. Chairman, we are at present not in a position to administer properly such a very complicated and sophisticated Act as the Income Tax Act and I think it would be wise for us to strive after simplification in our tax laws . We cannot expect the Republican Department of Inland Revenue to continue indefinitely to do our tax assessments and the concomitant administrative work resulting from the administration of intricate tax laws which are not suited to our present circumstances .
On a taxable income of R1,500 p.a. , for example, a Transkei citizen will have to pay R19.92 per annum in additional general tax while the Income Tax payer will have to find R113 if he is not a married person and R54 if he is married and his wife has no income of her own. On a taxable income of say R2,000 per annum the corresponding figures will be R34 as against R186 and R104; on a R3,000 income they are R84 as against R313 and R212 ; on an income of R5,000 they are R270 as against R637 and R456 and on R8,000 they are R699 as against R1,380 and R971 . Admittedly the person who pays income tax is allowed a child rebate but in the case of say the two lastmentioned examples i.e. the R5,000 and R8,000 income groups where the additional general tax will amount to R270 and R699 per annum , a married man, who is not a Bantu person and who has say three children, will have to find R291 and R806 respectively to satisfy his year's tax liabilities.
Local Tax. No changes are proposed in respect of Local Tax and because the Bantu Tax and Development Act is to be repealed certain re-enactments will be necessary in this regard. 219.
I think I have said enough, Mr. Chairman, to enable this Committee to debate my proposals for revised taxation and for the introduction of a P.A.Y.E. system and I move that this Committee report my proposals without amendment and that I be granted leave by this Assembly forthwith to bring up a Bill to give effect thereto . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : cond, Mr. Chairman.
considerate form of taxation ought to have rebates for the number of children, rebates for insurance policies , rebates for other things. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I will ask you Would you prefer this as it was? something . CHIEF NDAMASE : In the hon. Minister's speech there is nothing to show that he has taken that into consideration , and all this is based on the wages earned by the people. He says that we shall pay a lower tax than that paid Yes, by Coloureds , Indians and Europeans . that ought to be so and he has not even mentioned that it is because the Bantu people earn the lowest wage of any people in this country. In his proposals he goes on to say that a person pays approximately 3 per cent.
I se-
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Chief Minister who is also Minister of Finance is bringing before this House new proposals in regard to taxation. Of a truth, this taxation will fall upon the shoulders of the public. It is regrettable that a person should feel he can bring a bill of this nature to the public merely because his side has the larger number in the House . Nobody denies that the Government should tax the people in order to be able to undertake duties which it has to perform, but such taxation should not be heavy upon the people. There are proposals from the hon. Minister regarding additional general tax. If one takes a thorough look into these proposals it is evident that the tax to be paid according to his proposals will be higher than the one we were liable for in previous years. It has not only increased slightly - it has increased tremendously. One might even estimate that it has increased up to 90 per cent compared with what was paid formerly.
CHIEF NDAMASE : He says he has read this out of the Bulletin and he did not think of it himself. (Laughter) We maintain, however, that in South Africa there should be equal pay for equal work for Black and White , but that is not the case and that is why he argues we should pay a lower tax when he himself is not asking us to pay a low tax. (Interjections) He mentions sales tax and he says that increases the tax paid, but he is not aware of that fact. These tax proposals should have been given to us before now so that we could have been given opportunity to study and to pass it over to the people to find if they approve .
ས་
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : cent increase ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I was quoting you what was said in the African Bulletin.
A 90 per
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Where have you ever seen that?
CHIEF NDAMASE : It is almost 90 per cent. I still maintain that. The hon. Minister stated that the general tax which the people were liable for has been decreased , but although it has decreased the person liable for additional tax is still liable for that general tax. He will have to pay two taxes .
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Alternatively , you should have appointed a commission to study the question of taxation before you came forward with these proposals . The additional general tax has not been reduced. It would have been better if the Bantu people were asked to pay income tax rather than these proposals which are very suppressive . (Interjections ) It is maintained that the African people will not pay provincial tax. It is surprising that he should have even referred to this because he should not even have mentioned it. The African people who live in municipal areas and in the labour centres pay rates and these rates should meet the demands of the people , apart from their being asked to pay extra taxation. Further, our Government already pays some money to people who live These moneys that the in municipal areas. Government pays to municipalities are derived from public taxation but they are used to help the areas which ought to be helped by the provincial taxation. There is also a tax paid by each employer, which tax ought to meet the demands and needs of the people who live in these areas. It should not make him feel proud that the people are not liable for payment of this provincial tax. I think income tax was a much better form of taxation than this oppression of the people. (Interjections) Income tax was based on the income of the individual during the previous year. Let me now refer to the general tax which is said to have been decreased. The Republican
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , it is only one tax, with additions because of your income. CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. Minister says this is only one tax, but in his tax proposals he has separated them. Although he says there will be exemptions , exceptions , conditions and so on, there is nothing to show here that these things will be as he states.... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are confused. You don't know what you are talking about. CHIEF NDAMASE : ....whereas as far as income tax is concerned there are reductions and rebates. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You don't know what you are talking about. CHIEF NDAMASE : They say we don't know what we are saying, but I maintain they do not know anything about this. They have just been given a paper and asked to pass on this information because they are in favour of this supA pressive policy for the African people. 220.
local tax first and then you imposed the general tax.
Government stated that this tax would be reduced and, just like a parrot, you are repeating the You did not think of it yourself. statement. The Republican Government is aware that a flat rate system of taxation cannot be applied to all the people as is applied here within the Republic , especially with reference to African people , with the express purpose that all the African people should feel the heavy weight of this taxation and would therefore be compelled to accept any employment even if they did not approve of it. It is regrettable to discover that the African Government should also assist in this process.
CHIEF NDAMASE : My hon. friend says we imposed a general levy on the people over and above the local tax.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : you reduce it?
He is trying to cover CHIEF NDAMASE : this wicked act that they are bringing in, over and above the heavy slavery imposed on the people. I wish you would consider the condition of the people. You are oppressing the people; you are killing them .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What would you do if you were in the Government ? CHIEF NDAMASE : Put an end to the flat rate system in the Transkei and tell the Republican Government to pay back all the money that accrues from sales tax or other indirect taxation. (Interjections ) Let me state that my hon. friend thinks the Republican Government would not be willing to do this, whereas I am sure they would do it. In South-West Africa the customs and excise duty are calculated and sent back to South-West Africa.
MR. SEKAKE MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of the statement made by the hon. the Chief Minister. I also regret what has been said by the last speaker because the hon. member is aware that the Transkei must be administered on its taxes . I am even more surprised that he should make the statement he has made , because he has always been paid out of the funds accruing from taxes . He has never been employed by any European, but has received whatever stipend he receives from the African people . Because he is aware that this money supports him he ought to be very grateful and thankful. I am quite aware why he takes this attitude . He mentioned that the PAYE system is not good , whereas it is the best form of taxation. As a chief over his people he ought to be very grateful for this system of taxation because it will stop them being arrested for failure to pay their taxes. If you were to note the extent to which our youths avoid paying taxes you would be surprised. They live like birds. You mentioned that the Transkei Government pays a certain amount of money to assist the people living in municipal areas . You must not forget that those people are liable for taxes exactly as we pay them in the reserves . You must further be aware that whatever tax is paid by the employer it is to enable employees to find places of residence . It is from that tax that the municipalities are enabled to put up municipal buildings in the locations . The municipalities get their income from the employers and the municipality is no different from the Transkei Government. The municipality, just like all of us , is under the Transkei and it is for that reason
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : How much is
it? CHIEF NDAMASE : What would be the difficulty in following the same process here in the Transkei? The hon. Minister asks how much would accrue from that. It is to be regretted that only yesterday you were saying you would ask for these moneys when you do not understand anything about it. Make room , so that we can take over this Government and we will show you. (Laughter) With reference to local tax, the Government is quite blind in this connecIndeed, this tax is paid even by people tion. who ought not to pay it , because this is taxation on land. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What about the 1955 tax which you introduced in the Bunga? CHIEF NDAMASE : Let me repeat that this is the tax on land and it ought to be paid by people who hold a certificate of occupation similar to quitrent, but as soon as a person gets married he is liable to this tax even when there is not a plot of land available for him . My hon. friend says I introduced this tax, but when I joined the Bunga the tax was already in existence.
that the Transkei Government is paying a certain amount of money to the municipality. All this shows that this Government is very considerate . They think of the condition of their people and of ways and means of making their living easier. The form of taxation that you imposed
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What about the 1955 tax which you imposed on widows ?
on the people is the cause of the unpleasantness and the cry that we are experiencing today, because the people are not aware up to now what the purpose of that tax is. It would have been better if you were speaking to the people , explaining to them what this general levy was for and what its purpose is . This form of taxation which is proposed will be used to pay you and to pay me. We work for the people we are representing. Evidently you would like the people to be served and the Government to work for them so that you and I will not be paid .
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am not talking about that . This is the general levy I am talking about. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : admit you imposed the general levy?
CHIEF NDAMASE : about this general tax.
Why didn't
Do you
Yes, but I am talking
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : There was a 221 .
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: tion)
MR. JAFTA: Reference has been made to additional tax and that men and women would be separated and each person will have to pay relative to the income he makes . Also, there will be no rebate as far as children are concerned. Because of certain complications you said that as time goes on there will probably be further consideration as to what is to be done. We look forward to all those matters because they wil be assisting the people . I have already stated that we are placed in a difficulty because we did not have previous knowledge of your statement and we are therefore not in a position to comment as we would have done . The African finds himself in difficulty because of taxation, because though he is a poor man he has to pay taxes and has to go to work in order to pay his taxes. Whilst he is away at work he leaves his children at home with nothing to eat. Most people think that is only an imaginary hardship. It is not only a thought - it is fact, and it should be considered further.
(Afrikaans interjec-
MR. MOSHESH : Iwould like you to remember that I am not a Dutchman. If you want me to appreciate what you say, speak a language better than the one you are speaking. You will understand that I am speaking only of the Bantu people. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to say a few words in connection with this statement, though I wish to point out that we are placed in a difficulty because we have not been advised about what was taking place . Even in the order paper it was only stated that it was the committee of ways and means , but it was not said that the tax proposals were going to be discussed . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : liamentary language .
That is par-
MR. JAFTA: We therefore find ourselves in difficulties and we are not able to decide what is important. On studying this statement I find that preparations are being made for the purpose of taxing the people. Matters appertaining to taxation are of great importance to the people of the Transkei because , as they have no money, they suffer. Quite obviously the tax is going to be reduced from R3.50 to R2.50 and I am sure most Transkei citizens will be thankful in that regard.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I would like to take part in this debate on the statement by the hon. the Chief Minister relating to taxation proposals in the Transkei . I am quite happy to state that I have discovered from his speech that a person who has income will pay tax and I would be happier if a person who cannot find employment as a result of the regulations and laws of this country were not made to pay any tax. Unfortunately, this has been brought to us before we have had an opportunity to think about it. I will say what I think. In order that the African people should achieve progress it should not depend upon the assistance of the White people .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear.
MR. JAFTA: But there is something else which the Transkei Government should consider: That most of the people , even though this tax has been decreased, are not yet in a position to pay because they are poor and others are invalids .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.
MR. MNYANI : The people who have been fortunate enough to be given education by their parents should be able to pay more than the unfortunate. The White people will never enable us to earn sufficient because they are aware that if we were able to educate our children we would finally have this land as ours , because it is quite clear that even those who say they accept the Transkei as it is are merely making this a spring-board to acquire the whole of South Africa later on. On that only we agree. (Laughter) We want the whole of the Republic and we have the feeling that whoever agrees with us should be on our side . The reference which was made to a publication of the Africa Institute shows that we pay only 3 per cent of the income of the land, but I would like to contradict that statement because I maintain that whatever money has been collected from the African people towards the consolidated revenue fund is more than that, no matter how it was collected.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Are you aware that the present taxation has been decreased in so far as the lower income group is concerned? MR. JAFTA : I would further say with regard to this that the Government should take consideration of the fact that those people who have to pay are poor. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is just what the Government is doing. MR. JAFTA: In this regard the Government should co-operate with the chiefs so that those people who avoid paying taxes should be brought to light. There are many people who can afford to pay taxes , but who do not do so, and as a result those people who are unable to do so are being oppressed. A great deal could be accomplished if those in authority would consult the leaders. We find in this new set-up that the African people are going to pay 3 per cent.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : How much is it? Give us the figures . MR. MNYANI : The very fact that I am paid a lower wage than that paid to the European enables the European to pay a higher tax than I can. The foreman who is in charge of the factory in which I work, who earns far more than I do , pays more because he also pays the
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , you are wrong . It is nothing of the sort. I was just quoting what the African Institute said was paid in direct taxes by the Africans in the whole of the Republic . 222.
tion because they know the people will be annoyed and they are themselves afraid of what the Government is doing. The hon. the Minister of Finance has given us statistics based on the earning capacity of an individual . He stated that a person earning R2,000 a year will pay a tax of R34. He did not mention that this indicated R1.20 for each completed sum of R30 in income , which means that a person earning R2,760 will pay a tax of more than R34 . The people who will pay this tax are the people who have been given an increase recently in their wages , which means that the increase means nothing at all because the Government turns round and takes the tax away from them immediately. In the paper given to us showing the table , there is a note which says " subject to such definitions , conditions , exceptions , limitations and exemptions as may be provided" . We understood this to mean that there would be a rebate on the family taxpayer , depending upon the number of children he has , but the hon. Minister says there is no certainty as regards this rebate on the family. I do not think that anybody who has two children would give information to the effect that he has twelve children. I think the hon. Minister should accept the information given by the parent as regards the number of children. I now come to the matter of PAYE . This does not indicate that the person who pays as he earns will be exempt from paying the tax that is deducted from his wages. Inthe PAYE scheme , which I had experience of when I was a teacher , there are some strange features because some of the women paid a higher tax than some of their male counterparts in the teaching profession.
tax I am paying. Now it is maintained that we are paying a lower tax. It is because, according to the law, there are certain jobs we are not allowed to take . As we know these facts , let us not say that the Europeans should not be permitted to open up industries in the Transkei. No European will come and spend money in the Transkei to open up industries when he is aware that he cannot have a right to buy land and own property within the Transkei. If we were to have industries within the Transkei there would be a great number of people who would be liable for income tax. Further , Mr. Chairman, the people who know much about the sales tax have indicated that the people who will be hardest hit by this are the African people whose wage level is low. One Mr. Skinner , an expert, said in the Sunday Times that the African people buy more shoes and use more leather than any other people in the Republic. That means , therefore , that money accruing from the Africans into the coffers of the sales tax fund will be greater than from any other source . As my last point I appeal to the Government side that all the White people be allowed to open up industries in the Transkei. Let us not act like the Republic by forbidding people owning landed property within the Republic when they want to start businesses. Let them be given the right to open businesses in the Transkei and to own property. It is the desire of everyone that whenever you want to start anything you would like to leave it as an inheritance for your children. No European will therefore come and open up industries in the Transkei when he is aware that after a certain period his children will not be allowed to own those industries. What are
That was THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : income tax. Income tax has been abolished .
MR. MNYANI : I say this because you keep saying you want White capital to come into the Transkei but at the same time you say you will not allow Europeans to own property in the Transkei .
MR. DUMALISILE : It is the PAYE system I know it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : you talking about?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That was part of the income tax system.
MR. DUMALISILE : part of income tax.
The debate was adjourned .
You mean PAYE is not
AFTERNOON SESSION THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This we are talking about is the additional general tax. You are mixing things up.
The debate on the taxation proposals was resumed . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The next speaker shall be the last speaker .
The PAYE system is MR. DUMALISILE : this: The tax deductions must be claimed by you if you are not liable and when someone claims the money due to him then he is made to pay interest on it.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a fact that these laws and the speech as regards taxation are not quite understood by this House.
you
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is the income tax system . This has nothing to do with it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But I told about it in my second reading speech.
MR. DUMALISILE : to make a noise.
MR. DUMALISILE : I say that because not one member of the Government side has stood up to say the Government has taken a wise step in this direction. (Interjections ) Usually, every member on that side says "Hear , hear" when they approve of anything, but the fact is they are afraid to say they approve of this taxa-
Well , I shall allow you
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , I am not making a noise , I am trying to explain to you. MR. DUMALISILE : If it is written here as PAYE , it is the same scheme that we had
223.
before, where the tax was deducted from the wages of the money-earner . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : confused, that is all.
pressed , especially as regards provincial tax. I appreciate what the hon. Minister said because I know of people who pay R1,000 as provincial tax and I would like to state there is nothing There is something which is altogether evil. good in everything . The reason why I do not support the Government side is because I was never a member of Poqo or the ANC and I have never had any individual pressing me hard for anything. (Laughter) All we must do is work in and for the Transkei. We must make this Government grow.
You are
MR. DUMALISILE : You have confused us with this page, so it seems you yourself do not understand this. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: You don't understand what I was saying, that is why.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : MR. DUMALISILE : We are talking of this heavy taxation on the public. It is that which has made even your Government side say you have not done well , because they are quiet. (Interjections) Formerly they used to speak with one voice and say the Government has done well. What I would like the hon. Minister to note is that if a person says he has so many children, then a rebate will be allowed on all those children.
MR. RAZIYA: We must oppose the Government if we see anything wrong and we do not want the Special Branch to be marking us and think, because we are on the Opposition side, we are working against the Government. We are a free people. We do things for ourselves ; we think of things before they are done for us , not like the people on the other side. Now they are beginning to think as I speak. We want you to stop this attitude because we have come here to speak on behalf of the electorate. The Government side speaks the truth, let us accept that.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is income tax, not additional general tax.
MR. DUMALISILE : The day you produced this paper and we asked what this tax was , you said you were going to bring it for us to consider. Now you are bringing a bill. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : know what you are talking about.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Hear, hear.
MR. RAZIYA: If the Opposition speaks the truth, let us accept the truth inthe same manner because we are representing an illiterate electorate. Let the Government understand what we are saying. I say what is right, as far as I am concerned. I will not just say what is being stated by the Government side because what they say are things which are unpleasant and which are suppressive to the Bantu people . That is why I keep one straight course and do not turn from side to side . If I speak with someone on the Government side I accept him warm - heartedly and I associate with him in many respects . (Laughter) I will not just accept what another person approves of, and that is why I am on this side . If the people say we do not want such-and- such , then I will stand for them . Let our chiefs understand that if our people do not approve of anything they must not just accept it. Likewise , we appeal to the Government not to do anything that the people do not approve of. As regards taxation, nobody in the Transkei must be arrested for failing to pay taxes. If a person fails to pay tax he must be allowed to go to the mines or to the factories in Cape Town. (Interjections ) If he is working thenthe employer must be made to pay his tax.
You don't
MR. DUMALISILE : If we are talking nonsense it is because you have caused us to lose our trend of thought and your side has also lost the trend. In the old days those who had a large family got a rebate on their tax. It does not matter how you have come , that child would vote for you, being a citizen ofthe Transkei. We would like the hon. Minister to take note of this and consider it. We are surprised that the Government side does not say the Government has done well , because this will be taken back to the people. MR. A. RAZIYA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to put a question to the hon. Minister. In all the statements he has made as regards the payment of this tax there is something I do not quite grasp - namely, an unmarried woman who has children. You have said nothing about this in your statement. Secondly , I would like to know what happens in the case of companies . Is a company not Iliable to this tax ? I want to understand this because it is a matter that affects the Transkei . How will a company pay this tax ? Even though much has already been said, I will accept that in this statement there is something that is good for the people . GOVERNMENT MEMBERS:
Hear, hear.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: the whole idea of PAYE.
That is
MR. RAZIYA : The people must not be compelled to accept things they do not approve of. I advise that you must not hate one another.
Hear, hear. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about Doubt?
MR . RAZIYA : Let us not consider the people Let us also whose wage level is very low. consider those who are earning a very high I think of teachers and graduates and wage. of the people who belong to certain companies and are paid salaries. Those people are hard-
MR. RAZIYA: Even the Doubt you are referring to was brought into this territory on purpose. People are driven like sheep to do a wrong thing. 224.
R480 and R600 is , under the present taxation laws, paying R5-50 , but when this bill which I am going to table before you is passed that person will pay R5-26 . I am dealing with people who earn money , to refute what the hon. member and his satellites say, to prove that they are talking nonsense and are very irresponsible . A person earning R600 per annum rising to R720 at present is paying R7 per annum , but under the new tax proposals he will pay R6-82 . A person earning R870 per annum today pays R10-50 , but under the new proposals he will pay R9-82 . Now what are you talking about , saying the Government is increasing the taxes of the poor classes ? The functions of the State have got to be performed and how is the Government going to do it without taxes ? This is the new taxation system I am telling you about and the ordinary people of the country will feel very appreciative of what the Government is doing, although you do not appreciate it. But I challenge you to go and tell them the Government has done a bad thing by reducing this tax and see what they will do to you. The hon. member for Gcaleka says they have not been given a chance - that they have been taken by surprise , but I referred to this in my budget speech . I told them I was going to ask this House to allow me to move a bill. There is nothing that has taken you by surprise . Then the hon. member for Ngqeleni who is always very evasive (he has run away from this House because he knows he was talking nonsense ) - he says the reduction in the general tax is an innovation of the Republican Government, but I made it clear in my speech that the Transkei had to make tax proposals which are the same as those of the Republic . There was nothing wrong so far as that is concerned and all the tax proposals put before you are the tax proposals which will operate in the Republic. Now, you talk about rebates but if you listened carefully I told you what the effect of rebates would be in the income tax which is now being abolished in this bill.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in closing this debate I feel that after the speech of the hon. member who has just spoken..... CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , this is a very important matter and I will not be heated over it. The reason why I make this request is that when there is an important matter like this one.... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
That is not
CHIEF MABANDLA : If a policy speech has been given, let it not be rushed over. We have come here to represent the people and we must be given full time to discuss everything that is brought to us so that we may accept it. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : that is not a point of order.
Hon. member,
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in closing this debate I feel that after the speech of the hon. member for Umtata district, there is really nothing much for me to say. I wish to appreciate the attitude which both the members for Umtata district (I refer to the hon. Mr. B. Mnyani and the hon. Mr. A. Raziya) have shown and for the remarks they have made so seriously. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I appreciate the manner in which you have handled this debate in giving so many of the Opposition speakers an opportunity to participate in this debate , (Interjections) although some of them had just nothing to say . I appreciate very much what the hon. Mr. Bangani Mnyani said, that the people who earn salaries should be taxed and that the people who do not earn salaries should not be taxed. I wish to assure this House and the country as a whole that my Government is moving towards that direction but it cannot be done overnight. It must be remembered that the services of the State have got to be performed and they cannot be performed without taxation, but I hope the Government members will take note of the objections from the members of the Opposition even to the concession which has been made to the people who earn very little money that of reducing what is known as the "poll tax" of 1925 , and that the Government members will go out to the electorate and tell them what the attitude of the Opposition members was to this reduction. For example , the hon. member for Ngqeleni speaks very wildly - a man of his standing ! He says this Government is taxing the people when, in fact, all people who earn up to R360 per annum will only pay R2-50 per year, and the taxable income starts from R360 per annum . For your information, at present a lady teacher or a male teacher or any worker who has been taxed on the general tax of 1962 and earns an amount of between R360 and R480 pays R4 additional tax , in addition to the R3-50 , whereas under these tax proposals he or she will pay R3-70. Now a person earning between
What is going to be the MR. H.H. ZIBI : position with a member of this Assembly? What is he now going to pay? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : allowance is not tax-free.
Your
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I gave you examples on what people would pay on certain scales in regard to the new tax regulations . I said that on a taxable income of, say , R2,000 per annum a person would pay R34, whereas in spite of deductions for children a married person would pay R104 under the old system . In other words , under the old tax, in spite of rebate for the children you would still have to pay more than you are paying under this bill. I told you that a single man would pay about R186 on an income of R2,000 . I don't know what you are squealing about because these tax proposals are to the advantage of the low - earning group. The people who are really going to suffer in these tax laws are the Ministers and the paramount chiefs . Those are the people who will pay more , in terms of what the hon. Mr. Mnyani said . He said the people who should be taxed are those who earn more and because
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you are such a collection of sheep you cannot understand even what is said by your own member. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: I put the question that the tax proposals before the House be adopted.
Agreed to. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please. TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I thought you would listen better when your own member was trying to explain to you, but I want to assure the hon. Mr. Mnyani that the Government is not unsympathetic towards the people who have no earnings, and to assure him that we will move towards the direction when the people who have no earnings will not pay tax at all. But it must be clear that the men who are earning an income will always pay. In reply to the hon. Mr. Raziya, who has been the most reasonable man on that side , (in fact, I always wondered why he was amongst you, because I have known him to be a man with wonderful sense).... (Laughter) MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: going to divide and rule us.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , you will recall that when moving the first reading of this bill I not only tabled a copy of the bill but also an explanatory memorandum which set out in detail exactly why I sought to amend the bill. Although the bill has operated very successfully for more than three years , it has been found that certain comparatively minor amendments can considerably ease the task ofmy department in administering the territory. The compilation and distribution ofthe explanatory memorandum, as I think you will agree, actually rendered unnecessary a lenghty second reading speech by me. There is, however, one aspect of the matter which can perhaps be conveniently enlarged on. I refer here to Clause 6 which confers powers on the Minister to depose a headman. The present machinery for the deposal of headmen is very cumbersome and in some cases there is just no way of deposing a headman. I have here in mind a headman who has lost the confidence of the people of the administrative area but who otherwise has not committed an offence. At present he cannot be deposed but causes endless friction because the people and the tribal authority do not want him. The proposed amendment, if adopted , will permit me , after consultation with the paramount chief, the tribal authority, the chief concerned to depose the headman. As you will see , there are ample safeguards to ensure that such powers are not used capriciously. In addition to these safeguards there is, of course, the final one which members can exercise in this Chamber and a Minister who should misuse his powers will find himself having to answer to the highest forum of our land. Mr. Chairman , I therefore move that the bill be read a second time.
You think you are
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I am not dividing you, I am telling you you are a collection of fools. For the information of the hon. member, companies will not be taxed but you, as an individual , will be taxed on your earnings from the company to which you belong. We shall go through your books thoroughly and you will be taxed on your profits . Now, under the income tax regulations this was not so. The Department of Inland Revenue did not care whether you did not have the profits. They taxed you on their own estimations. For example , the hon. member for Nyandeni · in his shop they saw his goods on the shelves and they did not care whether he was making any profit, but they estimated his profits and taxed him. The same applied to farmers · they did not care whether there was a drought or anything, but in spite of that you cannot appreciate a position that has come to alleviate all the burdens of your poor people. With regard to unmarried women with children, if they have an income of over R360 they will pay this amount which is taxable . You take a teacher who is teaching in a school , unmarried but with children. She is obliged to pay this taxation, but if she has no earnings she will pay nothing. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have already moved that this committee reports my proposals without amendment and that I be granted leave by this House later on to bring up a bill to give effect thereto.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, may I call for an explanation from the hon. Minister before we proceed? Mr. Chairman, Clause 6 (2) - the hon. the Chief Minister seems to suggest that people of the administrative area are now going to have the right to vote for a headman and vote him out at will. Is that correct?
Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I wish to make it clear to the House that these explanations will be made at the committee stage of the bill. At present we just have to discuss the general principles. I have the explanation to give, but I think these questions will come up at the committee stage. I would like , with all due respect, Sir, to reserve a reply to that question for that time.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I shall move the introduction of this bill at a later date . We are still dealing with translations . I move that the Deputy Chairman reports progress . House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the proposals considered by the Committee of Ways and Means have been accepted by the committee without amendment.
THE CHAIRMAN: debate. 226.
The bill is now open for
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this bill will be an amendment to the Bantu Authorities Act, even though I did not approve of that Act altogether because there are many clauses in it that deprive the chiefs and the paramount chiefs of their rights , and it further deprives people of their right to deal conclusively with land which belongs to them according to their customs. The amendment to the very first clause is to include sub- chiefs in the definition, and I do not see the need for a sub-chief. Let there be a paramount chief and under him the chiefs , and instead of having
THE CHIEF MINISTER : commend?
Who should re-
MR. MNYANI : The paramount chief should recommend to the Chief Minister. That he should be given power to interfere in a matter before the paramount chief and his advisers have decided on it means he is making himself a paramount chief of all the regions . It was stated clearly here that the Chief Minister would not have powers over and above a paramount chief in the paramount chief's area. The reason why I say he is trying to make himself a paramount chief senior to all the other paramount chiefs is because it appears also here that he will be paid a stipend of R600 over and above all the others . Under Clause 7 there is a point which states that if a chief does not go to the tribal authority meeting three times in succession he will be deposed . Suppose he has no interest in whatever is being discussed there , why should he not be deprived of his stipend rather than being deposed ? (Interjections ) Who is going to depose him? His tribal authority? If he does not attend a tribal meeting because he does not approve of what is being discussed , and perhaps because of the manner in which he is treated by the head of the authority ....
what you call a " sub- chief" let us decide to give up the term "headman" and call the present headmen "sub- chiefs " . The reason for the insertion of this sub- chief is because in certain areas there are often small troubles here and there which may result in a chief who should rightly be a member of this Assembly not being able to come because of those troubles and difficulties . Further, as regards Clause 6 which provides that when the people do not agree with their chief then the people must be allowed to make representations , I approve of this. I know of a certain chief who at one time, in one day, shot about three people and those people died and were buried , and the people do not approve of that chief. They always complain about him but have no way of deposing him. It appears from this that the people will have an opportunity to say something and possibly have a chief deposed if it is necessary to do so. Further, in that same clause , sub- section ( 3) , there is a term I do not like · the term "consultation" . It is a term
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are heads of the authorities . They are not all heads of MR. MNYANI : authorities. At Ncise there is one who is not. There are chiefs who are being threatened with They have a bad habit death by the people. of going to tribal meetings armed and while speaking they always handle their guns . (Laughter)
whose interpretarion is not quite clear because , according to this it allows a chief, for example , who may also happen to be a Minister to have a finger in the pie in a matter of deposing a chief like himself. (Interjections ) This may mean that the Minister is merely informed as to what he should do. By this term "consultation" you may just mean that the Minister or the paramount chief, if he happens to be a Minister, may push his own opinion against that of the chief and the people. Instead of the paramount chief and the chiefs in his area consulting among themselves beforehand, the powers are then given to the Chief Minister. At Mpunzana in the Dalindyebo region the hon. the Chief Minister installed the younger brother of the chief before the people had accepted and before the paramount chief had approved of this . For four years the paramount chief and the chiefs in that area have constantly come to these offices to discuss this question, and also with the Secretary. I have always been present as an adviser to the paramount chief. (Interjections)
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to give my whole support to the proposed amendments to the Bantu Authorities Act. I am happy to note that the powers which were enjoyed by our chiefs and which were taken away by colonial governments are being gradually restored to the chiefs . This House has today listened to remarks of a man whose mind has been poisoned merely because he has decided to follow the policy .of the English. I do not blame him, however , because, he was born atthe time of Cecil Rhodes , after the English had destroyed the powers of chiefs. That is because he is a man who knows nothing about chieftainship and is a mere rag of a townsman. He has got into favour with the royal family by going along, or agreeing with the chiefs when in actual fact he wants to destroy chieftainship . I liken him to a pumpkin which appears fat on the outside , but which in fact is rotten inside . (Laughter) He wants to destroy the policy which aims at respecting royalty because he is detribalized. He knows that the lower houses should have respect for the higher houses . For instance , there is the Great House and the Right-hand House. The
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . MR. MNYANI : As yet no conclusion has been arrived at in this matter even though we can now say we are approaching finality. I would that the term "recommend" should be used to replace this other term "consultation" in the same manner as used to be the case when the State President came to install.
Great House has its " qadi " house , while the Right-hand House also has its " qadi " house , and the sons of the chiefs give respect to one another whenever, according to tradition , a question of rights arises . I think the hon. member would be embarrassed if I asked him to what
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What more weight has "recommend" than "consult"?
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I am not talking about a chief who is only in charge of one location and who got his appointment as a chief in Parliament, (Laughter) when he has no sub-chiefs under him. I am talking now about a law which will see to it that the chiefs will not be treated with contempt by the sub- chiefs or headmen under them. If there is a law that is good, it is the law that is going to bring about a situation where the senior chiefs will know and respect their positions . Another thing I dispute is the allegation that the hon. the Chief Minister acts arbitrarily. The Chief Minister from his office consults with all the chiefs in the district in connection with matters affecting them . If it is true that the hon. the Chief Minister does things arbitrarily why do the paramount chiefs go out and attend installations of headmen, if the Chief Minister does things as he likes ? Let us try to put the Transkei right and not be like some of the members across the floor who are sowing dissension and setting chief against chief. There is another remark which will mislead hon. members of the Assembly, to the effect that the hon. the Chief Minister receives R600....
house Chief Bambilanga belongs and to what house Chief Dalibunga belongs . (Interjections) Now, is the hon. member quarrelling with what Chief Sabata has done in giving Chief Dalibunga rights in the Right-hand House? Is he now happy with the decision of Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo? According to this law and to tradition, matters have been so arranged that the sub-chiefs will respect the chief in the authority. There are so- called counsellors who have just sprung up like mushrooms and now, with the inception of the Transkei Government, want to cause trouble . When tribal authorities are established and sub-chiefs are appointed as heads of these tribal authorities , that is done in accordance with custom . Even in the old days of Dalindyebo a chief in the Mqanduli district could try a case , but if he found it necessary to do so he conveyed that same case to the Great Place at Bumbane . The aim of this amendment is to see to it that administration is facilitated, because the areas are now wide . In the explanatory memorandum in connection with Clause 2 you will see that it is desired to amend the said section to provide for a chief to be head of more than one tribal authority and also to safeguard a chief's position so that someone other than a chief cannot be appointed as head of a tribal authority in the area of jurisdiction of a chief unless the chief agrees thereto. My advice to the Opposition is to see to it that troublemakers who have just sprung up from nowhere should not come and cause enmity between chiefs , because chiefs know their own positions according to tradition and when they give younger chiefs a share it enhances the nation. There is a little fool who does not realise that this amendment aims at facilitating administration. I am not surprised , however , because that is the way of a man who sees himself in a high position without working for it. I reminded the House that his father was picked up.... (Interjections ) MR. G.G. KUTU: of order ....
THE CHAIRMAN : that. He withdrew it.
I asked him to withdraw
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Give me indulgence , please, Mr. Chairman. THE
CHAIRMAN:
No, I cannot do that.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: To pass on, then, finally I want to say that the Transkei people with the chiefs must accept the fact that the policy of separate development has come to assist the position of all the chiefs in these territories and the Transkei people must also be happy today that the progeny of the various houses will now enjoy rights . There is something which I want to make clear which is not well understood by the people . It is necessary, more particularly with the children of chiefs , to be thankful to the Government for this action. I wish also to say something about sub- chiefs. To give an example , I will quote my area of Emigrant Tembuland . The chiefs ' line in our area comes from the Halas , the Right-hand House of Mtirara. There is the Right-hand House of Matanzima , the house of Sabata . Sabata is the son of Matanzima in his Right- hand House - not the Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo . Through agreement in Rode area he has been given the right of being sub- chief over seven administrative areas . Now it gives a chance to participate in administration to the son of Matanzima in his right hand. To take the head of the amaHala house, Chief Mtet'uvumile , the son of Sabata is the younger brother to the right-hand house of Daliwonga. According to custom, when any member of the right-hand house visits the righthand house he is given a seat. According to custom in the house of the sub-chief, if people are dissatisfied with the ruling of this sub- chief then these members of the lower house are now able to appeal to the Great House . When the chief of the Great House rises up he rises up with the minor house. The aim in this Act is to so arrange that these different houses have a say. The hon. the ChiefMinister has reminded
Mr. Chairman, on a point
THE CHAIRMAN: I think you must withdraw that. MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I withdraw. The people must look at their former status and consider what they were formerly. The hon. member for Dalindyebo wants to encourage headmen not to attend meetings of the tribal authorities. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please , hon. member for Butterworth. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: He is for discouraging headmen from attending meetings of the authorities. I want to ask him why a headman who has accepted an appointment should not resign if he does not want to carry out the duties of the government . A man must not accept appointment as a headman if, when meetings of the tribe are held, he does not attend. . Some headmen were formerly in the habit of not bothering about the authority of the chiefs because no provision existed for their punishment. Today we are going to put that right.
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was born a constable and has never been a chief, but today he claims chieftainship .
me of what happened in Qaukeni where there are 23 chiefs , 15 of whom are in this House, leaving 8 without seats. That means that chieftainship in Qaukeni will always remain in strength. That makes the younger brothers of the chief not to have any complaint against the chief. People who are detribalized and who have no respect for their background or for chieftainship will always squeal , especially people who have admired the policy of the Bunga system which aimed at the complete abolition of chieftainship. We who are patriots are very happy about the introduction of such a bill (Interjections)
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I did not intend to make any speech but the last speaker has persuaded me to stand and make these remarks this afternoon. I think the person who hates the chiefs more than anybody else is the hon. member who has just sat down, and I would like the chiefs to note that. I am on the subject being discussed . He went to Qumbu to go and cause disturbance and trouble for the rightful chief in the Qumbu area. GOVERNMENT MEMBER :
That is gossip .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. There he took a young CHIEF MAJEKE : woman to the area outside , contrary to the customs of the people.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : I have been chosen to speak because this is actually the very call of the very African nationalism we want to revive , but a lost and detribalized people has never been proud of the maintenance of its national identity. We are very happy because in Clause 2 ( 2) the status and the dignity of the senior chief is by no means minimized , but there are infilitrators in the system of our chieftainship who are trying to induce an extreme form of confusion to mislead the people. We were never happy about what happened to the Xhosa nation when King Hintsa's head was chopped off by the British regime and was taken to Cape Town as a war trophy. In fact, there was jubilation in England because they said: Today the power of the Xhosas is finished. In this House we are very proud to find that history is in the making and the next generation will not suffer as we have suffered, because they will have the rightful protectors , the traditional heads and leaders of the people. (Interjections)
THE please.
CHAIRMAN :
Come to the subject ,
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, if ever there was a law contemplated by this Government which is going to bring misunderstanding between the chiefs and their subjects , it is this bill. The purpose of this bill is to administer accor ding to dictatorship . That the people should follow democratic principles of government is totally opposed by this Government. The hon. the Chief Minister, in terms that were very clear and outspoken stipulated this afternoon in this hall that the purpose of this bill was to empower him to depose a headman or chief who did not agree with people , although he had committed no legal crime . If the tribal authority did not work harmoniously with the chief, then this bill gives powers to the Chief Minister to communicate with the chiefs in that area to depose the chief concerned . If the aim is to have justice , I would like to know where justice has ever been maintained in a case where somebody from outside the area will be empowered to go into the area and depose a headman there. If our Government were aware of the Bantu authorities that we have in the Transkei it would be advisable for them to go slowly over this as it will upset the whole government of the To give an example , suppose you Transkei. have eleven locations in an area and you take two members from each area to form the tribal authority for that whole area. Should there be an occasion when it is found necessary to depose a headman, it may very well happen that nobody from the area of that headman will be present in the tribal authority on that occasion and therefore he will have nobody to support him , or possibly there may be one member who will be outvoted by the rest of the members from other localities . Perhaps the reason why this headman is not wanted by his own people may be made public and the chief agent behind all this procedure may well be these powers which are being given to the Chief Minister to have the right to depose a headman according to this bill , because the Chief Minister does not remain in the office here. He goes out of the Transkei and expresses it occasionaly that if they don't go according to what he wants they will be deposed. I wish the Transkei Government would be satisfied with the power
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Referring to Clause 7, what paramount chief or what chief in authority would ever be happy with a magistrate who found a certain headman not guilty and discharged him, after a headman had deliberately not attended the meetings of the tribal authority for three times in succession? It is exactly that type of headman who will conveniently and intentionally flout the authority of their chiefs and paramount chiefs that we want to deal with. (Interjections) The aim of this bill is to see that there is order, there is discipline and there is respect for authority. Lastly, Mr. Chairman, let me say if the hon. chiefs who are sitting on the other side will allow those people who have no respect to be their subjects , I warn them - woe to them , because those people who call themselves subjects of the chiefs but will not be prepared to make suitable arrangements for the chiefs , their intention is that they should take over chieftainship. In the Transkei we do not like , nor shall we ever relish the idea that is happening in Bechuanaland where Sir Seretse Khama, the traditional leader of the Bechuana tribe , because of a multi- racial matrimonial contract , decided to flout and despise his birthright. (Interjections) I want to warn you now, if the sons of the chiefs in Bechuanaland respect and take pride in their birthright, the days of Sir Seretse Khama are numbered. (Interjections) I hate a person who 229.
they have here and with the majority ofmembers they have in this House - the majority which they achieved by hook or by crook. (Laughter) Now that they are introducing such bills I know that the aim and purpose of this bill is to use the chiefs and headmen as agents to carry out the desires of the Government, as was the case in this recent election. I am happy to belong to this side of the House . I am not even disturbed , even though my hon. friend referred to one area - our hon. friend, Mr. Tshunungwa . We are happy on this side of the House, we have an easy sleep and we are not worried as you are in trying to find means to win again in the next election. (Interjections ) My hon. friend referred to the hon. chief from Butterworth and he referred to him in an unmannerly way, but that is his habit. Why should a chief who has full jurisdiction over his area now have someone else with powers in that area of jurisdiction? Is he not able to carry out his duties of chieftainship? We see exactly what is behind what you want. If a chief has full jurisdiction over his area, why should there be somebody else who can go into that area and exercise powers greater than the powers of the chief in that area? (Interjections) Why should the hon. Chief Zulu be an overseer under someone else? Why can't he be an overseer in his own area as he wishes? (Interjections)
jurisdiction must be left to carry out the duties.... (Interjections ) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Quote the section where it says " chief". It is the headman.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Why do you want to have consultation with the chiefs when the people are there for the location? Who should install these headmen? Now you tell us they must install a headman who is not approved of by the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER : nonsense .
CHIEF MAJEKE : But you said it. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . CHIEF MAJEKE : You said where a headman has committed no crime . You have said it and If the tribal authority you cannot deny that. does not want that headman.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : to me.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : must dismiss the headman. ment.
CHIEF MAJEKE : If the chiefs are not aware of what I am trying to make clear to them, here we have the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and over there the Paramount Chief Will these paramount of Eastern Pondoland . chiefs not be able to install their own subchiefs but must pass their own powers to the Chief Minister? KA- TSHUNUNGWA:
Then they come
CHIEF MAJEKE : Now you want them to come to you.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please .
MR.
You are talking
Yes , and tell me I I am the Govern-
CHIEF MAJEKE : Now they come and tell you to depose that headman. This is a wicked Act. We could not have anything more wicked. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please .
Read the bill.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you applied for chieftainship in Pretoria. Why did you do that?
CHIEF MAJEKE : We have a crowd of chiefs in Eastern Pondoland and we are continuing to install more of them. They were installed and designated by the regional authority, but now he wants to take all those powers and impose them upon himself.
CHIEF MAJEKE : It is wrong that the hon. the Chief Minister should be so forward in administrative matters because there will always be a tendency for him to say that the chiefs are under him.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : that? (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Chief Minister tomorrow?
Where do you get
CHIEF MAJEKE : No , I would never say that. This is what we want to state clearly , Mr. Chairman, that if a paramount chief or a chief belongs to one area, why should he be installed by a chief who comes from a totally different area? (General uproar)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , order .
CHIEF MAJEKE : If there is no such thing there is no reason for a bill like this. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: prehension.
And if you are
Read it with com-
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. members there must stop that duel. interfering with the speaker.
CHIEF MAJEKE : There is a provision, for example , in regard to the sub-chief of Qumbu. The chiefs are THE CHIEF MINISTER : appointed by the State President. The Chief Minister has nothing to do with the chiefs. There is nothing of the kind in that bill .
The hon. You are
CHIEF MAJEKE : The very fact that a chief who is a chief over the Pondo people should be installed and approved of by chiefs who belong to totally different tribes is out of the proper custom of the people . I would like you to take careful note of these things . Let us not place our Chief Minister in a difficulty
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, we maintain that the chief who has power in his area of
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Commissioner who goes to the area and desires to know the opinion of the people as regards the installation of the chief, and having ascertained the opinion of the people he notifies Pretoria. We have always had uniformity about this and we would not like it to be forgotten . Having received word from Pretoria the magistrate or the person in authority goes to install the chief. Now this Government wants to undertake that duty and I do not think there is any chief who will oppose that . Anyone who does not want that procedure had better go and live on the farm . I shall not be very lengthy on this point because I know all the people are in favour of it. I would like you to take note that before the advent of this Government we were under the White Government. You will remember that a headman received a stipend of R3 per quarter. After the increment it rose to R6 per quarter and there are still some who receive that R6 per quarter. With the coming into power of this Government we were paid monthly, and now that power is being given back to us who would oppose such a thing, when you are given what belongs to you? If a person has taken your beast, would you fight against him when he returns it to you ? I rise therefore to second that this bill be put into practice . Some people are frightening others that this is a trick so that this Government may remain in power. If you are not sure what is going to happen it rests with you to know that you are the guilty person. We advise you to come back. If you are not sure of yourself, give up the game . I do not wish to be lengthy as I was not prepared to speak on this .
seeing that he happens to be a chief as well as Chief Minister. It is quite proper that he is Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland and should administer affairs there , but I want to say to the chiefs they must be very careful because this is directed at them. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 22nd May, 1969. THURSDAY, 22nd MAY, 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just have to announce that the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works is indisposed and is not able to attend the session . NOTICES OF BILLS THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the fact that the bill I referred to yesterday has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) , I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) that the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly. TRANSKEI
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am now joining the debate on a very important issue. The bill placed before the Assembly by the hon. the Chief Minister is a very important one . It is only unfortunate that he did not give us time to study this bill beforehand and prepare ourselves for it because we consider that in everything we ought to be given an opportunity to study and to make amendments or deletions where necessary. We are
PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and I move that the bill be read a first time . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : cond .
I se-
the Xhosa people and we know the customs of the Xhosa people . (Interejections ) According to Xhosa custom if there is a paramount chief and under him chiefs and headmen and subchiefs , the authority in that area rests in the Similarly as hands of the paramount chief. regards the sub-headman. Whatever is discussed by the sub-headmen is passed on to the headman and from the headman to the chief, from the chief to the paramount chief. There is , however , one point that was not made clear by the sensible side , which is our side , the Opposition, where it is stated that if a headman has to be deposed the Chief Minister should come into the matter . Who knows , however, that if the people do not approve of their headman they will go to the chief, who will investigate the matter and if need be impose a punishment on the headman, or perhaps a fine . If it should be necessary
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING The debate was resumed. MR. M. DINWAYO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we are now approaching our custom a custom which was in practice before the White man came into this land. I am quite certain that even the Opposition members cannot oppose this. According to Bantu custom, when a chief was installed then all the tribesmen assembled and if there were any close clans they also went to the Great Place. When the Europeans arrived in this land they took the powers of the chiefs into their own hands and our procedure changed , but even though the procedure has changed the main issues of the custom have remained . Of late it is now the Bantu Affairs
to depose him he would be deposed by the chief and the chief will take the matter to the paramount chief, so that the paramount chief and the chief can make a report to the Chief Minister and not that the Chief Minister and the tribal
231 .
rights of chiefs . Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs, hon. chiefs , hon. members , we appeal to the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei to withdraw from becoming involved in such matThe right to install a chief is the right ters. of the paramount chief and he should have consultations with his chiefs as regards the installation of sub- chiefs or headmen in his authority. It is not the duty of the Chief Minister to install sub-chiefs in the rural areas . That is the duty The of the chief and the paramount chief. Chief Minister must remain in his office and merely wait for representations brought to him by the paramount chief and the chiefs. Here is one dreaming here, saying that this has been brought to him , whereas he has brought this before the House .
authority should discuss a matter which should be referred to the headman. THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
You
are lost.
On that account we feel that MR. KUTU : this is not handled as it should be . This is brought about the fact that there is no confidence in this Government. Yesterday he placed before the House an important matter about a reduction in the taxes and before we had studied it carefully he had it passed. We merely got into it unprepared because we had not studied it beforehand. There were points that we should have studied and put right because they were not correct.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are still coming to the bill .
MR. H.S. DUMANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am very lucky to have the opportunity of speaking now, following a speaker who did not know what he was talking about . The intention of this bill is to restore chieftainship and to put it in its correct form. Yesterday I noticed a statement made by the hon. Chief Majeke . One of the things he mentioned in his statement was that it was not necessary at the installation of a certain chief that other chiefs who are not related to such chief should be present at such installation. When he made such a statement I began to doubt whether he was a chief. When we come to custom in connection with chiefs, there is no difference between the chiefs. That was what I understood when I heard the statement made yesterday in this House . It is quite in order that when a chief is present here he should realise that he is a When he made differences amongst chief. people it meant, to my way of thinking, that he was not in this House. A statement was made that there are different houses in chieftainship. No-one in this House disputes that. What we
MR. KUTU : We know that the Government has never reduced the taxes .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you talking about? MR. KUTU : What the Government does is to increase taxation and if they decreased the taxes then there is something behind it. THE CHIEF MINISTER : bill .
Come back to the
We had something to say as MR . KUTU: regards this bill which has not been asked of him by the people , because what he should have done first was to abolish the tax on the people who come back from Johannesburg and when they are repatriated they should be made not to pay their taxes. THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I am surprised you allow an hon. member to discuss a matter which is not before the House .
are aiming at now is to secure the smaller houses . It is therefore clear that the smaller houses should not be thrown away but should be brought closer to the Great House . According to this bill all the work will go on smoothly because the number of people who will do the work is to be increased . I cannot understand any statement which objects to this particular concern. I do not even see any reason why I should speak at length. I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member come to discussion of the bill. MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, I think I am on the point under discussion because what has been placed in this House has not been brough according to the usual procedure . I ought therefore to refer to it even though we have passed it, because it was not according to procedure . I read here that the hon. the Chief Minister would meet the tribal authority as regards the position of the headmen, whereas we regarded him as a very important person - namely , the Chief Minister. We do not know of a Government that will lower itself to the lowest level in the outside areas. All we know is that the Chief Minister is taking to himself all the powers of the chiefs and paramount chiefs so that the paramount chiefs will find they have no power in their areas of jurisdiction because we on this side note that he has full control of their minds and thinking powers . (Interjections)
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak in the second reading of this bill just to make one or two comments. I want to say that , generally speaking , this side of the House is not going to oppose the bill but will be introducing several amendments to the bill. We are concerned over the use of the word "consultation" in some of these bills . We have found out that in the past the word " consultation" does not necessarily include seeking the views and taking those views into account in coming to a decision . What the word means in legislative language now is to tell the person what you are going to do and then the requirements under the word " consultation " are thought to have been met. Now, we feel that this meaning is a diminution of the exact meaning of the word "consultation" and therefore we are always worried whenever it is embodied in a bill . As
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. KUTU:
He is bringing to an end the 232 .
we understand the word "consultation" , we think that it means the people's views must be taken into account and, since they are going to be directly affected , any administrative act following upon that consultation should be based onthe views given at the consultation . I think that would ensure peaceful administration and will ensure the co- operation of the subjects , if they know that what they have asked for will weigh heavily in the mind of the Minister when he comes to a decision. Then again , this side of the House welcomes the assurance which is extended to chiefs as regards their jurisdiction and area of jurisdiction when heads are appointed to tribal authorities who are not necessarily chiefs . There is at the present moment a considerable reluctance on the part of a chief to have headmen appointed as heads of tribal authorities , the fear of the chief being that the head of tribal authority, because he can exercise criminal and civil jurisdiction thinks that he is on a par with the chief. The provision in the Act puts this beyond dispute and the chief's jurisdiction over the tribe is not necessarily reduced by the appointment of a headman as head of a tribal authority. There is this danger , however , that a headman appointed as head of a tribal authority will usurp unto himself the position of a chief and this head may well think that he has to have the same rights and privileges as are enjoyed by his own chief. Now , I think this has to be explained to all those who are made heads of tribal authorities who are not chiefs that they are still subject to the chief and that the chief's area of jurisdiction includes the area of the tribal authority over which there has been appointed a headman as head. Then, Sir , I am worried over the fact that there seems to be a provision in this bill for a short - cut method of disciplining a headman by way of deposing him . In terms of the principal Act the headman has to be charged , there has to be an inquiry , a report is made to the Minister , the Minister refers to the tribal authority , the tribal authority recommends a form of punishment which is approved by the Minister before the punishment becomes operative . One is not aware of any circumstances which should justify a different treatment being meted out to the headman. It may be considered that the manner in which the disciplinary machinery moves is a very cumbersome and slow one , but I think it ensures justice to the headman concerned . At the present moment, in terms of this bill, after consultation with the tribal authority, regional authority or the paramount chief the headman may be deposed and my fear is that the subjects of the headman who is summarily deposed may well feel aggrieved over the fact that they have not known what offence has been committed by the headman. Furthermore , there is a democratic right which is being denied the headman namely , that he should be heard. In this amendment there is no provision for the headman to appear , for instance , before the tribal authority or before the paramount chief to put his point of view before these people with whom the Minister has to consult before he deposes the headman. I will be happy if the hon. the Chief Minister would canvass this point to give us the assurance that the headman will be heard before he is deposed and to say why the procedure provided
for in the original Act should not be followed in the case of a headman. I am happy to note that chiefs will have to pull up their socks and attend meetings of their authority. ( Interjections) There is nothing so annoying to the public as to find that when they have attended before the authority, the head or the chief is absent elsewhere . MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR . GUZANA : This absenteeism is a matter which is costing the subjects a lot of time, money, and causes them hardship . Now, Sir , you have opened up a loophole in this provision. You have insisted on three consecutive meetings , but if I alternate these meetings you can do nothing about it. You see , I can attend a meeting, miss the second one , attend the third , miss the fourth and so on and you cannot do anything about it. After all, there is provision for the head or the chief to ask for leave and then he is lawfully absent. I think a degree of firmness should be shown on this score so that administration in the various tribal areas and regional areas becomes effective by the head of the authority being present regularly. Lastly, Mr. Chairman, I never knew that (to put it literally) the seat of a chief is so warm that people will refuse to vacate it when their time comes and that this House has to provide a section to kick them out - literally kick them out of office . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : pened, though .
It has hap-
MR. GUZANA : The Government has found it fit to do so and I find no quarrel with kicking out obstinate chiefs . THE CHIEF MINISTER :
Acting chiefs .
MR. GUZANA: Acting chiefs . I think it is time I put my claim in as chief and got into this warm , comfortable seat. ( Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder how the members feel about this discussion? Do you feel it has been sufficiently canvassed to pass on to the next stage ? MR. GUZANA : Agreed , Mr. Chairman. Let the hon. Minister reply. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have listened attentively and with interest to the remarks raised by the speakers on the Opposition benches , and it has struck me that for the first time since the inception of this debate , the House has listened to a constructive and reasonable , critical analysis from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. For that reason I feel constrained , therefore , not to reply to the nonsensical and unreasonable statements which have been made by the other speakers, but I wish to put the House in order with regard to the misdirections which have been given by the hon. member for Dalindyebo , Mr. B.S. Mnyani . I regret to say that this hon. member is so capable of making wild distortions that it becomes difficult to take him seriously at times . He has made this House believe that
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want to refer to the other matters that he mentioned here · that the Chief Minister was trying to be above the other paramount chiefs , but I want to assure him that the place which I have taken, together with my colleagues , the other Cabinet Ministers , in matters of this nature is the place which was occupied by the State President and now, in terms of the Constitution, when it comes to matters of headmanship and chieftainship I occupy the seat which was formerly occupied by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development in the Republic. The fact that I happen to be (Interjections) a member of the royal family should not worry you. Even you, hon. member suppose you were fortunate enough (which you will never be) to be Chief Minister of the Transkei one day, you would have the same powers which I have.
the Chief Minister is appointing chiefs and appointing headmen , tossing them around and so on. In trying to put his case he quoted a matter in his own region which came before the Chief Minister a matter which was brought by him. The hon. Mr. Mnyani will remember that on a certain occasion he , amongst others , was delegated by the paramount chief to come and request the Chief Minister to give Headman Matoti an authority, an authority in an area which had an authority head. (Interjections ) MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , I think in this House there is a tendency for people to make reference to people's disfigurements over which they have no control. This is a matter upon which everybody should feel very disgraced. How am I going to determine where my nose is going to be placed on my face ? (Laughter) This tendency to say in interjections that So- and- So has a crooked nose or is a hunchback or something is becoming prevalent amongst the members of this House. I think the privilege of this House does not extend to such personal remarks . The hon. member at the back here refers to the hon. Mr. Mnyani as a hunchback. What can Mr. Mnyani do about physical condition? I appeal , Mr. Chairman, through you to the House that these remarks as to the physical deformities of members of this Assembly should cease immediately.
OPPOSITION MEMBER : But you should use them as a servant of the people - not as a king. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You create the impression that I, as Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland , am trying to impose my authority on the other paramount chiefs. I am not a paramount chief here - I am a paramount chief in Emigrant Tembuland. What I am here is the position of a servant of the people and in bringing forward these bills I am trying by all means to put matters straight and simplify clauses which are complicated . Now, the hon. member for Emboland - another person who can make serious distortions in his attempt to be believed - made allegations that the Chief Minister was trying to appoint chiefs and headmen and dismiss them at his pleasure . I want to draw his attention to the principal Act, section 41 , sub- section (1) , which reads as follows : - "It shall be the function of a tribal authority, subject to the provisions of this section, to appoint a headman or, as circumstances may require , an acting headman over any residents of or land situated within or comprising an administrative area. "
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , coming back to the debate again, the hon. member made such serious distortions that I feel I must put the record straight. His delegation came to me that I should make Headman Matoti head of a location and he should establish an authority over a location which was under Chief Justice Mtirara , and I told him he was capable of causing a lot of friction among the chiefs , because Headman Matoti in status is senior to Chief Justice . How can a senior man have an area of jurisdiction in the area of his junior in rank ? I pointed out that there were several locations in the Dalindyebo region which were under ordinary headmen, then I suggested that Matoti should be given an authority in those locations and suggested that it should be the locations of Cacadu , Canti and Dumalisile's location which is called Mpunzana , where there is to be an authority of five locations under a headman who is junior in status to Matoti . I suggested that the other two locations should go to the Ebotwe tribal authority under the paramount chief. On that day they all acclaimed me as a man who knows custom in Tembuland and that they would refer the matter to the paramount chief. Later on the hon. paramount chief came to me and in the presence of one of the senior officials of my department it was decided that Headman Matoti should be made tribal head of these three locations I have mentioned. The fact that Matoti had a misunderstanding with the people of the location is not my "indaba". I was trying to carry out the wishes of the senior counsellors of the paramount chief and of the paramount chief. Now the hon. member comes forward and makes these serious allegations about the Chief Minister. I want to prove to this House that he is very irresponsible and is capable of misleading. Now, I do not
CHIEF MAJEKE : Now you want to dismiss one who has committed no offence. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now, listen. Subsection (5) of the same section reads : " Notwithstanding the provisions of sub- section ( 1 ) the Minister - (a) may after consultation with the tribal authority and any paramount chief concerned appoint a headman or an acting headman if in his opinion it is in the public interests to do so. " Now it is only this sub- section (5) which is being amended because of certain administrative difficulties.
CHIEF MAJEKE : So that you now appoint and dismiss headmen. You are talking THE CHIEF MINISTER : nonsense . I am still explaining this to your dull , thick skull. The question of dismissals of headmen is contained in section 46 of the principal Act and that section is not being amended, but in so far as this sub- section (5 ) of section 41 is concerned we found there are certain difficulties which usually confront the paramount chief, the tribal authorities and the people of the administrative area. 234.
statments. If you want information come to my department. You won't come because you always want to mislead the people . You are capable of making serious distortions · that is your living. (Laughter)
CHIEF MAJEKE : What has happened in the Qumbu district ? Tell us . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Just listen to me , man. What is wrong with you ? You have no headman in your location. You are the headman of your location so you don't have these difficulties in your area of jurisdiction. Now you must sympathize with the other chiefs.
MR. GUZANA:
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes . MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , has it ever occurred where a tribal authority has recommended a punishment which is regarded in excess of the offence and your department has substituted a lesser form of punishment?
CHIEF MAJEKE : But there is trouble in Qumbu with other chiefs because of this. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to tell you. You refer to a headman in Qumbu. It is the tribal authority which dealt with that headman and made recommendations to the Chief Minister. It is the tribal authority which deals with the headman - not the people . (Interjections)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No.
MR. GUZANA : If that has not happened , would not your department consider amending punishments by tribal authorities if they are out of proportion, either too lenient or too severe in relation to the offence ?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Have you got any instances to bring before the House to say that I ever sacked a headman?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I was still chastising the hon. member for Qumbu. I am still going to continue to do so , but I will reply to your question after dealing with him , Sir. This hon. member said that the bill was undemocratic. What do you know about democracy? You cannot even define the word "demoBut what is more interesting is that cracy" . he says the Bantu authorities will cause a lot of friction in the Transkei and he says that chiefs and sub - chiefs are being created by the Government.
CHIEF MAJEKE : We have. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The headmen are sacked by the tribal authority after confirmation. What does the word "confirmation" mean? It is after confirmation by the Minister .
MR. GUZANA:
May I put my question now?
May I put a question?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Wait, I want to put this fool straight. ( Laughter) The hon. member has been a headman for a long time before he became a chief. He knows perfectly well....
CHIEF MAJEKE : We have had trouble already in Eastern Pondoland . THE CHIEF MINISTER : What a wild and unconsidered statement by a man who is the creator of the Bantu Authorities Proclamation of: 1956. He says the Bantu authorities will cause friction in the Transkei. Why did you participate in the committee which drew up the proclamation which became the Bantu Authorities Proclamation of 1956 ? You are the creator of Bantu authorities and you come and say they cause friction in the Transkei. You see , this is precisely what you have done in regard to the establishment of this Government. The hon. member was in the committee which drew up the Constitution and, in fact, he was in the front bench of that committee . He was the chief
CHIEF MAJEKE : You were a headman , too. THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I was a chief with many headmen under me. I belong to the Mtirara royal family. Listen ! Your appointment was made by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development on the recommendations of the magistrate and the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei . You know that. In the past headmen were dismissed on the recommendation of the magistrate and the Chief Magistrate , but the dismissal was effected in Parliament. You know that. What is your objection to the confirmation being made by my Government ? Is it because it is a Black government? You cannot imagine yourself falling under a Black government because you don't want it. I have told you I am in the position now which was formerly occupied by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and in any event when headmen are being disciplined what my department does is to refer the matter to the tribal authority to be dealt with within eight weeks . The Chief Minister never passes any verdict on any headman. Now, all the heads ofthe tribal authorities who have headmen under them (except you, because you are the only headman of your authority) know the procedure very well. There is not a single head of an authority who can stand up and say the Chief Minister has ever dismissed a headman. Now, you must study the administrative machinery . Don't come and make wild
speaker, but the moment the Act came into being when he wanted to be a Cabinet Minister he somersaulted when he lost the seat. For your own information , Sir, you left Emboland and you went to Western Pondoland to beg the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland to take over the position of Chief Minister in order to put you in the Cabinet. (Interjections ) The Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland had never considered the idea of contesting the seat for Chief Minister but, as you usually do , you work against anything which you have created . Now, Mr. Chairman , I want to make it clear to the hon. member that the chiefs of the areas deal with the question of allocating powers to their junior brothers and they submit recommendations to my Government, to submit to the State President. This
235.
Government does not interfere with chieftainship because chieftainship falls directly under the State President. He says I go about attending installations . For your own information the Chief Minister is usually invited to attend install-, ations . No member of my Government attends an installation of a chief unless he is invited. If the hon. member had a capacity (unfortunately he is a non-entity) he would be invited too. He is probably envious of the position of a Minister because he wil never be a Minister. I come to the remarks made by the hon. member for Tembuland, Mr. G. Kutu. I do not think there is much to reply to him because he was really confused, but when he says he has not been given a chance to study the bill I think he is trying to put forward a very feeble excuse , because when the bill was tabled for the first time it was tabled with explanations and that was done some weeks back. He has given us a picture of administration that the sub- headman deals with the headman, and the headman with the chief, and the chief with the paramount chief. We know that very well. Then he says the Chief Minister deals with headmen. Where do you get that? No Chief Minister deals with any headman. This is what usually happens in these matters : My department refers matters to the magistrate of the district and then the magistrate of the district corresponds with the head of the tribal authority. It is the head of the tribal authority that gives instructions to the headman to hold a meeting and consult the people . Now, he refers to the question of Lahlangubo . I want to reply to that and tell him that the Authorities Act of 1965 confers the powers of appointment of headmen on the tribal authority and on nobody else. (Interjections) The head of Lahlangubo was appointed by the people of the Jumba tribal authority in the Engcobo district in terms of section 41 (1 ) and it is that authority that must consult the residents of Lahlangubo . Now do you expect the Chief Minister to act against the decisions of the tribal authority arbitrarily? MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Must the tribal authority act against the wishes of the people and the paramount chief concerned?
You must expect chaos.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Unfortunately, you don't fall under my jurisdiction because I know how to deal, with such a person as you. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order. THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am certain my elder brother has not quite understood what sort of person you are . Now, I have explained to the hon. member that the Chief Minister never dismisses any headman and I want to make it clear to the hon. member that no Chief Minister goes out to the locations to nose about in the headmen's affairs . (Interjections) These matters are brought to the department and it is the department that brings these matters to the Chief Minister. (Interjections ) I went to Mpeko in my capacity as Jonguhlanga's younger brother. I was invited by him. You don't know that at times I forget I am Chief Minister and become Jonguhlanga's younger brother . In that matter you are not even a Tembu - you are a location The hon. member alleges man. (Laughter) that the Chief Minister is trying to take away all the powers of the chiefs . That is a very wild statement. I have already told the House what the procedure is. Now, coming back to my hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition, I am very, very happy with the constructive remarks he has made and we shall look forward to any amendments which the Opposition will propose , but I cannot promise that they will receive the sympathetic attention of the Government because the Government went thoroughly into this bill. Now, coming to the word " consultation" which he has raised , the word "consultation" refers to the negotiations which take place between the department and the community concerned. This is what usually happens - the Department of the Chief Minister receives a report from a magistrate in connection with a certain headman, and naturally the department must respond to that communication. The magistrate of the district as an agent of the Department of the Chief Minister consults the tribal authority concerned and the paramount chief, who must also consult the tribal authority under him, if any. Now, the people are never consulted by the Department of the Chief Minister that is , the voters. They are consulted by the tribal authority and if the Chief Minister's Department are satisfied that there has been no consultation then we call upon the magistrate of the district to be present at that meeting where consultation is being made. I think this is clear in your mind , that consultation has to be done by the tribal authority with the people concerned , and if the tribal authority happens not to pay attention to the views of the people then my department has to find out the reason why, should the tribal authority not listen to the people concerned. For example, in the case of Lahlangubo and the headman there , the tribal authority advanced these reasons why the headman wanted by the people was not appointed: The father of this man , together with the man himself, had been arrested for Poqo activities and the father was convicted. The father was the headman and he was convicted and sentenced to gaol, but the son escaped
THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Act does not say that the tribal authority will act in accordance with the wishes of the people . It does not say so . MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : chaos.
MR. МАЛЈА:
That is why there is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It does not say so. It says the tribal authority will consult the registered voters . That is all it says. What the Chief Minister has to do is to consider the decision of the tribal authority . MR. MAJIJA: And chaos will ensue . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The members ofthe tribal authorities are chiefs from various areas who come together to consider matters. .Do you suggest that the powers of the chiefs should be minimized and that people should be listened to? (Interjections ) If I had my way I would rule over you with an iron rod. 236.
location go to the head of the tribal authority and make complaints against a headman, and the head of the tribal authority calls a meeting
conviction. Now, the tribal authority submitted that this man escaped on a technical , legal point. (Interjections ) He has got the same views as his father and they submitted that he did not care for the chief. He never even goes to the Great Place . How can he be appointed to look after the chief's people when he does not care for the chief? That was the submission put by the tribal authority, and we cannot take lightly the views of such an administrative body. MR. GUZANA :
of the tribal authority to discuss this matter with the people concerned. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I just Is this procedure assist, to cut it short? being provided for a case where there is no charge brought against the headman but where the people....
My submission was · would THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where there is no charge but where the people feel they are completely dissatisfied with the administration ofthis Sometimes man and they do not want him . my department has got to protect the headman, but there are times when, after investigation , we find that the people's complaints are genuine and should be considered. For example , in my district one headman just left for work without reporting to anyone.
the department accept the majority view of the people , all things being equal ? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Normally when there is a hitch between the tribal authority and the people the department usually sends the matter back to the tribal authority for further consideration. That is also the case with regard to inflicting punishment on a headman. Now I am replying to your question . Where the department finds that the punishment meted out to the headman is excessive the Government does not inflict punishment but sends the matter back to the authority for further consideration with observations and usually the tribal authority takes into consideration the views of the Government and inflicts a lesser punishment. We are agreed , Sir, with the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that the views of the people must be considered seriously. With regard to the matter of Headman Mgobozi of Qumbu. This headman was dismissed onthe recommendations of the tribal authority. In fact, I would say he was dismissed by the tribal authority, but the people of that location came forward to plead that this headman should be reinstated. The matter was sent back to the tribal authority who consider the matter and decided to reinstate the headman. The headman has been reinstated because of the decision of the tribal authority , so you can talk a lot of nonsense , you hon. members. (Interjections ) He does not come to my office to get these things , because he delights in speaking wildly.
MR. GUZANA : Now, if the complaints are genuine, why is he not charged? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Just wait a minute . In my area the headman just left the location and in terms of the old Act nothing could be done about that headman and he had to be charged before being dismissed. Of course , he was not available and the Minister could not depose him because he was absent. Now it is such matters that the Minister , after consultation with the paramount chief, the chief of the area and the tribal authority, should consider favourably. MR. GUZANA : I accept that explanation with this proviso - that normally they will be charged and there will be an inquiry in the ordinary way. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , section 46 rėmains untouched , you see. I think I have replied to every issue raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, and I thank him for the assurance that the second reading of the bill will not be opposed . I move that the bill be read a second time.
MR. GUZANA: May I just ask , Mr. Minister , how did the people in the area of jurisdiction of this headman make their views known to the department?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: What happened was that they sent a delegation to the Department of the Chief Minister direct and then the department wrote to the magistrate of the district that this matter should be gone into and that there should be a public meeting of that location where the people should voice their views, and the magistrate should ascertain what those views are. That is the position. The Chief
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the committee stage of this bill will be on Monday, 26th May, 1969. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , there is this one point I omitted . I do not remember asking the hon. the Minister of the Interior for the second reading of his bill.
Minister's Department goes into these matters very thoroughly, but you must appreciate that we have to act in accordance with the law. We never do anything which is outside the provisions of this Act. Now, Sir , coming to the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the summary deposition of headmen, he sought an example of a case where the Minister should take such a step . I want to assure him that no Minister summarily dismisses a headWhat happens is that the people of the man.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The bill will be read a second time tomorrow , Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter. MR. GUZANA: The
237 .
We haven't got it yet.
Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
law. " At present, however, regional authorities exercise no jurisdiction and have no powers of appeal . Appeals from tribal authority courts are made to Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' Courts. The purpose of this bill , Mr. Chairman, is to enable regional authorities to exercise jurisdiction and to hear civil appeals from tribal authority courts.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you to grant me the privilege of a word of explanation with regard to what was mentioned by the hon. the Chief Minister when he said I do not speak the truth and that I turn things around. I would like to make a full explanation regarding the matter he referred to-at Mpunzana in the Umtata area. The tribal authorities were not approved in the Transkei until in 1965 the Transkeian Authorities Act was passed where the members of this Legislative Assembly advised that the authorities be instituted, and not by the magistrate . When these tribal authorities were instituted, Chief Dalibunga Matoti Mtirara was made head of the tribal authority....
5. The Bill is designed to achieve its aim without disruption of the existing judicature. For that reason provision is made for the establishment of courts created by existing legislation. However , Mr. Chairman, these courts will not be established as Bantu Affairs Commissioners' Courts but as regional authority courts for the sole purpose of enabling regional authorities to administer justice and the judicial officers of these courts will normally be appointed from the ranks of the authorities .
CHIEF P. JOZANA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, we would like to ask the hon. member to put us right as to the rule....
6. The courts will be courts of the first instance with civil jurisdiction similar to that of tribal authority courts. They will also be courts of appeal in respect of civil appeals from tribal authority courts . They will exercise their jurisdiction concurrently with tribal authority courts , Magistrates ' Courts and Bantu Affairs Commissioners' Courts . A plaintiff in a civil action is therefore not deprived of his right to institute his action in the court of his choice. Likewise an appellant will still have the right to appeal to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's Court, should he prefer the latter court to hear his appeal. Another important aspect is that litigants will be entitled to legal representation in the regional authority courts .
THE CHAIRMAN : I was just on the point of asking him to come to his point and not get into a discussion. We shall proceed with our work now . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, surely if an hon. member wishes to make an explanation on a matter raised here he is entitled to make the explanation. If the matter happens to be involved, so will his explanation be involved, Sir. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon , member, I think I am empowered to use my discretion and I find that this matter is getting deeper and deeper into discussion. I think we must pass on. We shall proceed with our agenda.
Appeals from the Regional Authority Courts will be made to the Bantu Appeal Court and to the Transkeian High Court when such court has been established.
TRANSKEI REGIONAL AUTHORITY COURTS BILL SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :-
8. Mr. Chairman, I am certain that all the honourable Members of this Assembly will welcome this bill because it is a step forward in the development of the Transkeian judicature.
Chairman , 1. Mr. honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable Members , I rise to move the second reading of the Transkeian (Regional Authority) Courts Bill.
Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable Members , I now move that the bill be read a second time.
2. At the outset I want to explain to the Assembly the present position of tribal and regional authorities in regard tothe administration of justice.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I second .
3. In terms of Section 12 and 20 of the Bantu Administration Act , No. 38 of 1927 , the Minister of Justice may confer civil and criminal jurisdiction on any chief or headman and , at the request of any chief having jurisdiction, on such chief's deputy. In accordance with the provisions of Section 4(3) of the Transkeian Authorities Act , 1965 , the Minister confers such jurisdiction on the heads of tribal authorities at the request of such authorities . No distinction is made between chiefs and paramount chiefs in regard to the nature and extent of such jurisdiction.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we on this side of the House appreciate the fact that the establishment of regional authority courts will emanate from the region itself. We are happy that it will be the region that will request the establishment of the court, but it has always been a cause of concern to me and, no doubt, to many other I mean the tendency citizens of the Transkei to sidestep the paramount chief in matters of justice and judicial practice . At the moment the court of the paramount chief, if he has one, is on a par with the court of the tribal head and appeals from his court go to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court. If we consider the ordinary use of litigation in the Transkei , shall we say a dispute generally starts at family
4.
Section 12 (1) (c) of the said Transkeian Authorities Act provides for the exercise by regional authorities of " such civil or criminal jurisdiction, including any appellate functions, as may be conferred upon it by or under any 238 .
tended to be a court of first instance - that is , a man can sue through that court in the first instance and yet he can also appeal to this court from the tribal authority court. When I was saying just now that there are some cases which have been outstanding since 1960 I was particularly referring to appeal cases from the tribal authority. Now, these cases are based entirely on custom and therefore there would be nothing to stop the appointment of the head of the tribal authority even if he is not legally qualified, more especially as I take it that provision would be made for the appointment of civil officers in those regions. There would therefore be no difficulty at all in the appointment of a paramount chief because he will have beside him people who are legally qualified . It should be understood that these regional courts are not intended to deviate from custom . All the original Bantu courts had counsellors . I do not expect that the regional courts are not going to have counsellors as the bill states that even a counsellor could be appointed. I therefore do not see any difficulty in the bill at all .
level ; it passes on to the extended family and further to the headman; from the headman to the tribal authority. Would it not be a better idea if, from the tribal authority, it went to the paramount chief's court and that the regional court be based along those lines ? According to the bill the regional court has nothing to do with the paramount chief as such. The people who can take charge of the court are listed in the bill. It would be a pleasant idea if the people were made to feel they are now appealing to the paramount chief, even if he does not preside over the court, and if perhaps the fear is that the paramount chief may not be qualified legally the Bantu Affairs Commissioner can come as an assessor. A counsellor or two could be taken to serve as assessors , then the people would feel they are now appealing to the right man, the paramount chief, their father, and the idea of introducing the attorney and the advocate to the regional court will be a very foreign one indeed to a tribal court. Further , Sir , the bill provides that a regional authority court may hear civil causes and matters arising out of Bantu law and custom , particularly by any person resident within its area of jurisdiction. The line dividing the region of Nyand and Qauka is the Umzimvubu River ; the line dividing the Nyanda region from the Dalindyebo region is the Umtata River, and there are numerous instances where people from one region have to sue people in another region. A man from Nyanda region may sue a man in the Qauka region and the parties are not satisfied and the matter is taken up on appeal . The appeal has to go to the regional court at Qaukeni and the presiding officer is going to say: I have no jurisdiction over this because this man is not resident in this region. I feel such matters as these ought to be given consideration if the idea of a regional court is promoted. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Have you realised in your experience that there are more appeals coming from the tribal authority court to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court now than before? MR. DYARVANE :
MR . GUZANA : further ?
I am quite aware of it.
Why complicate a situation
MR. DYARVANE : But the intention of the bill is to improve even the tribal authority courts the courts of first instance . They will have to improve because they know the case will go on appeal to their regional authority court. That is, the tribal authority courts will have to improve their standard of judicature as far as their laws and customs are concerned.
MR. M.E. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I first saw this bill and its explanatory memorandum I could not find anything to criticize , but now from the first speaker on the Opposition side I discover he has something to criticize . Still I do not see his grounds for criticism because in the memorandum provision has been made for the appointment of the head of the regional authority. This appears in Clause 2 (b) , and therefore the argument that paramount chiefs have been left out does not hold water and this bill , so far as this House should be concerned should be a great relief to civil litigants . At the present moment criminal jurisdiction as well as civil matters all hang upon the single Bantu Affairs Commissioner. This appears to me to be intended to give relief to the present Bantu Affairs Commissioner as well as to the civil litigants themselves . You will see the intention that it is only civil jurisdiction that is being extended to these regional courts , and this will bring relief in many courts (I can almost say all) because there is such congestion of civil cases among our people that they are embarrassed by the lack of more courts . I know of some
MR. GUZANA : is the trouble .
They do not know it - that
MR. DYARVANE : I don't believe that the Bantu actually don't know their custom . MR. GUZANA: appeals?
Why are there so many
MR. CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, I will ask the hon. member , Chief Sigidi , to march out. Chief M.H. Sigidi left the Chamber . MR. DYARVANE : I believe the people are going to derive many benefits from these regional courts . When I spoke of relief to our people as a result of the introduction of these courts I had in my mind litigants who have to return from work from as far as Cape Town, Johannesburg and other places for their cases , only to find that the prosecutor is not ready and therefore these cases have to be postponed for a further period . That is an expense and an embarrassment to our people . Any member who opposes the creation of these courts would oppose additional courts being created even if
civil cases that have been standing since 1960 and yet if there were additional courts most of the cases could have been disposed of more expeditiously . You will realise that it is in239.
they were only Bantu Affairs Commissioners' courts. This is going to create more work for I have already said the public our people. are going to benefit from the creation of these that is, in general · because these courts courts are going to be manned by Bantu so there is no question of these courts being denied the right to create further avenues of employment.
other men who have no judicial training whatWe know that most the Native law soever ? and custom, or Bantu law and custom, has now become case law. Are these regional authority courts going to have that case law before them? Even if they have it, are they going to underAren't they going to be subject to stand it? the prejudice which has always characterized trials by tribal authority courts ? The position at the present moment is that people go to the tribal court, but in 90 cases out of a hundred they appeal to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court...
MR. GUZANA: Is that the bill's justification? MR. DYARVANE : That is why it will be necessary for our young men to be educated and for them to be encouraged in the study of law. I do not think the lawyers will suffer any loss because they are allowed to represent their clients in these regional authority courts. I believe they will have more work to do and their work will be work that is going forward instead of being stagnant, because as the position is their clients are dissatisfied with the attorTheir civil clients claim that they pay neys . the attorneys money but the cases are not heard, and the attorneys reply that they cannot create Bantu Affairs Commissioners to adjudicate so I do not see anything to oppose in this bill. I am a born positivist, I never like to take the view that a thing cannot be done before I do it. When you see a signpost you never deny that this is the direction it is pointing to. You try that direction and you take the direction to which it is pointing. Let us embark onthese experiments and see what is going to happen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: every area.
Not in
MR. GUZANA: ...and the Bantu Affairs Commissioner is faced with accumulating appeals from the tribal courts . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Those appeals will go to the regional authority courts . I would understand if the MR . GUZANA : hon. the Minister of Justice had decided to establish a regional court as distinct from a regional authority court, where you are going to have legally qualified men appointed to this court.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: intention.
That is not the
....to which court people MR. GUZANA : will be entitled to appeal fromthe tribal authority court, that right of appeal to that regional court being alternative to the right of appeal to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court. We are
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it appears that I have been hookwinked over the intentions of this bill, or probably I thought something else was sought to be realised by the provisions of this bill. I have been shaken, however, by the comments of the hon. the Minister of Justice in introducing this bill when he has stressed that this is a regional authority court that he seeks to have established . The impression I had was that this was going to be a regional court, as distinct from a regional authority court - something similar to the type of court at one time established in the Transkei where a magistrate became the judicial officer of a regional court to try cases not so serious that they should appear before a judge at circuit. Now I see that the intention is to give civil jurisdiction to regional authorities so that they become courts even of first instance , and courts of appeal from tribal courts . Now I want to ask the question: Why are regional authorities being given civil jurisdiction? What is the justification? The record of tribal authority courts up to now is not one that we can say we are proud of. Now we want to introduce a regional
going to have , as things are, a complication and a multiplication of litigation which is going to delay final judgement in an action. And of these regional authority courts , when an appeal is launched to them do they receive any record from the tribal authority court, since these tribal authority courts are not courts of record? At the present moment.... MR. DYARVANE : courts of record. MR. GUZANA: courts .
They are going to be
No, in the tribal authority
MR. DYARVANE : courts will be .
The regional authority
MR. GUZANA: I am not speaking of regional authority courts , I am talking of tribal authority courts , and these courts are not courts of record. This is what is going to happen: A man is going to sue in the tribal authority court, appeal to the regional authority court and then appeal to the Southern Bantu Appeal Court. What is the purpose in creating another court of concurrent jurisdiction with the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court? Then again, you have a region with many different tribes and these people may well begin the case at this regional authority court and this regional authority court may not know the customs of the particular tribe which is involved in the litigation .
authority court which is not going to have a personnel necessarily superior to the personnel There is that we have in our tribal court. provision that a person with judicial qualifications might be appointed as head of that regional authority court; there is provision for a counsellor who is a member of the regional authority . Now I still ask the question: To what extent are we going to derive efficiency and correctness in the trial of cases in this regional authority court when you are going to have the man with judicial training handicapped by a number of
240.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If he is an African he knows it, if he is White he looks it up. That is what will happen. MR. GUZANA : capacity. THE
CHIEF
is subject to the provisions mutatis mutandis of sections 10 , 11 , 12 , 14, 15 , 16 , 18 and 19 of the principal Act and you will find provision for assessors there .
Some of them haven't the
MINISTER :
MR. GUZANA : provided for here ?
Why is it not specifically
Look at Rode . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is subject to those provisions.
MR. GUZANA : We don't all live at Rode. There is still a bigger area excluding Rode and we are not going to start our cases in Rode - we live in Dalindyebo region. The regional authority court may have to consider a case concerning a different tribe in the region. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : read section 2 (b)?
MR. GUZANA : It is my criticism of this system that it is merely a duplication of services . THE CHIEF MINISTER : No.
Did you
MR. GUZANA : Now, why don't you specifically legislate and say the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court shall come to an end or be disestablished? ( Interjections )
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about the magistrate? How does he know the customs ?
THE CHIARMAN : Order , please . MR. GUZANA : Section 2 (b) says the Minister may appoint to preside at the sittings of a regional authority court as many additional Bantu Affairs Commissioners as he may deem necessary . That is not answering my question. It goes on: "Provided that the Minister shall not appoint any person under this paragraph unless he is the head or a councillor , or the duly appointed secretary or employee of the regional authority..." THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : giving them a chance .
We are
MR. GUZANA : Now we know why you are doing this and we will not connive at it. (Interjections ) I think this is an effort to destroy well - established courts which have been meting out justice as between litigants in civil matters . At the present moment, I do not care what anybody says , these tribal courts are just a caricature of justice .
And?
MR. GUZANA: " ... and unless he has passed the examinations referred to... "
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You can't say that.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Then what more do you want?
MR. GUZANA : And here you are setting up another inefficent body, another court, giving regional authorities civil jurisdiction . What could ever justify that? I accept the creation of regional courts , but certainly not of regional authority courts . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR . GUZANA: You are seeking to have these courts deal with these matters according to the custom of the tribe. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
That's right.
CHIEF W. LUDIDI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will be brief in my remarks about what we have heard from the last speaker. He spoke of matters dealing with cases. We deal with cases in our tribal authority and we work together with these educated people who will not just let things go loosely , because they will be doing harm to the citizens . Your intention is to pull down the small number of chiefs who are uneducated , though we have a large number of educated chiefs . I will not deal with the region, but will speak about the appeals . People appeal , as you have stated. Other people will not even go to see the magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner but instead will go and consult attorneys . Then the attorney will advise the client to appeal and the client will then go back to him. I then write to the attorney telling him that I do not know anything about this and that that person has done something wrong. The procedure we know is that when a person is dissatisfied with the authority hethen goes to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner and does not proceed any further, particularly when they come to an agreement. That is howyou mislead people, but now I realise that people no longer trust you . Even about the old-age pensions ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER : How do the White magistrates know the custom?
MR. GUZANA : I am not speaking about White, Black or yellow magistrates . I am speaking of regional authority courts and there is no provision here for an assessor to be present.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is . MR. GUZANA: ....where a man from that particular tribe may be drawn in to.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : section 3 (1 ).
That is an insult.
Look at
MR. GUZANA: A regional authority court may hear civil causes and matters arising out of Bantu law and custom brought before such court by Bantu persons resident within its area of jurisdiction. I am speaking of an assessor, for instance , coming from that particular tribe . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This clause 241 .
MR. GUZANA : pensions .
against such a system but they will just carry on speaking. They also see that there will be no difficulty in the way these matters are being As it has already been suggested , arranged. there will be an assessor to help the paramount chief and I believe the members of the Opposition are are also happy about the introduction of this bill. I will be surprised if any members , even the hon. members of Dalindyebo region, object to cases being taken to the regional authority court. Even at the tribal authority courts the cases are recorded and are then forwarded to the office of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner . This bill does not prevent a person bringing his case to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court, so it is clear there is no difficulty . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I never discussed old- age
CHIEF LUDIDI : I was in the House when you spoke about old-age pensions and I heard you clearly. You said when this Government initiates something it is something which originated from you. People travel quite a lot when there is a question of money, but today their positions are better as far as the people are concerned.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member must please stick to the subject. CHIEF LUDIDI: This is what I want to refer to the Opposition: We have confidence in this good Government and in so saying I want to come to an end of my speech and associate myself with the hon. the Minister of Justice .
Hon. members , in my THE CHAIRMAN : opinion I feel the members are not very keen to continue with this debate.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make comments relative to the bill that contemplates the creation of regional authority courts . The first thing I do not understand in the bill is that when you institute these courts you will also have a The regional counsellor. Am I mistaken?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, we thought that some more of the Opposition members would try to speak on this measure . If there are none I would like to speak on the matter. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the judicial system of South Africa dates as far back as the days of Tembu and Xhosa.
authority has no funds of its own. They are given whatever funds they have by the Government. What surprises me is that there will be money coming from the regional authority to the office here , instead of that money being used by the region for their needs. I say this because the paramount chiefs who decide these cases receive the fees paid. Let us suppose the Minister authorizes the paramount chief to preside over a case. As I see things , whatever fee has been paid to the regional authority, that authority will be able to pay the paramount chief for presiding over the case. If it should be a counsellor presiding over the case he will be paid direct by the regional authority from their funds . However, if the fees paid to the regional authority will be passed to the office here it means therefore that the office will have to return them to defray the expenses in the regional authority courts. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : difference?
OPPOSITION MEMBER: And Mpondo. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And Mpondo and Baca and Hlubi, so it is nothing new in so far as our people are concerned. Before the White man arrived in South Africa in 1652 we had our own courts of law. The case started before the sub-headman and then to the headman; from the headman to the chief, from the chief to the paramount chief, but after the annexation of these Territories by the British colonial government Native law was not recognized until the Native Administration Act of 1927 (Act No. 38 of 1927) was promulgated, when these courts were established. In terms of that piece of legislation the chiefs ' or headmen's courts can be established. I think the intention of that legislation was to retain the customary procedures and the legal intricacies of our own people....
What is the
Now you are talking with MR. GUZANA: your tongue in your cheek.
CHIEF NDAMASE :
The difference is that the money leaves the regional office , comes to this office here and then is returned. (Interjections ) In addition the funds earmarked to help the regional authorities are still very low. Here is another point: You mentioned that the regional authority will preside over civil cases only. It is gratifying to note that we have found you out and that we are agreed that there are certain things that need to be put right.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: ....because in any nation the laws and customs of that nation have to be preserved if it is to survive . A system of law in South Africa was evolved , known as the common law of South Africa, which is sometimes known as the Roman- Dutch law or South African law. Now, this system of law was foreign to our people and the procedure under that law was completely foreign. The African people were never satisfied with the taking of the judicial powers from their traditional courts and I want to make it clear to the hon. members across the floor that this is the beginning of a system of law that will be satisfactory to our people in the future . We are giving concurrent jurisidction to the paramount chiefs or regional authority courts with the Bantu Affairs Commissioners' courts or, as you may call them , the
CHIEF M.E. MTIRARA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to associate myself with the bill introduced by the hon. the Minister of Justice. I also realise that the members on the other side have nothing to say against it, because the hon. the Minister of Justice has made it clear beyond all doubt that these cases will be taken forward to the regional court. I believe that even the members have no objection
242.
magistrates. But I want to make it clear here and now that in future those courts of the Bantu Affairs Commissioner and magistrate will come to an end and the courts that the people like, that are understood by them , will take their place.
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when the House rose I was still dealing with the principles of this bill . In terms of the Transkei Constitution Act we have no Bantu Affairs Commissioners in our civil service. We only have magistrates . Now, it is intended under this measure to confer the powers which were formerly exercised by the Bantu Affairs Commissioners on regional authorities and we have no doubt that, with experience and learning, these authorities courts will prove successful in administering Native law and custom. They will learn the procedure which applied to the Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' courts and in future might take over even some of the work which is a burden to the magistrate . I refer to minor criminal cases.
MR. GUZANA: Why did you appoint Mr. Mbuli and Mr. Stofile?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We appointed them as magistrates. In future we will appoint them as judges, if you allow it.
MR. GUZANA: You are confused. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We are not confused. The position in this bill is clear and there is nothing that is hazy. MR. GUZANA : is clear as mud .
You are hazy yourself.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Where do you get this , that there are only magistrates ' courts recognized in the Transkei Constituion Act?
It
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , in terms of our civil service we only have magistrates and no Bantu Affairs Commissioners and I am trying to show that the intention is to abolish Bantu Affairs Commissioners as such....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, the hon. member said he did not understand that this bill was creating regional authority courts , but the heading of this bill says "Transkei Regional Authority Courts " .
MR. GUZANA: Why? We don't want authority MR. GUZANA: courts , we want regional courts. THE CHIEF MINISTER: ....and to have their powers transferred to the regional authorities .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is alone in his view that these regional authority courts should not be established. (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA : Why.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: If you ask the question "Why?" I will not be able to tell you why the Bantu Authorities Act was passed in 1951 , because I was not in Cape Town, but I can only say to you that the whole system of administration and judicature follows the same pattern of separate development.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The first speaker on the Opposition benches welcomed the bill. He made only one observation – that these courts should have jurisdiction not only over people resident in the area of jurisdiction of that particular authority and I have no doubt the hon. Minister introducing the bill has taken note of that observation. In any event, the paramount chiefs are the leaders of their people judicially and administratively. They are recognized by their people as judicial officers as well, and the people are always satisfied when they come before the paramount chief's court. As a nation, however, we cannot be static and we have got to move with the times .
MR. GUZANA : Wouldn't the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court be in line with that ? Have Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court as distinct from magistrate's court? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think it will be the Bantu authorities . The regional authority courts will be Bantu Affairs Commissioner's courts . MR. GUZANA: Why don't you call them that now?
MR. GUZANA: Make sure you move forward and not backward.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not necessary . THE CHIEF MINISTER: So under this bill an improvement in these courts is being made in that there must be a judicially qualified officer sitting side by side with the paramount chief and his authority, so there will be no difference between the regional authority courts and the Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' courts or the magistrates ' courts. Mr. Chairman, I have not finished my speech but I move that the House adjourn until 4.15 p.m.
MR. GUZANA : Are you going to have one regional authority court taking over the work of three or four Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' courts ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, that is not the intention. We shall establish regional authority courts in every district. How will they be regional MR. GUZANA: authority courts then?
The debate was adjourned. 243.
MR. GUZANA: mistake .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : They will be falling under the regional authority in that area of jurisdiction. You see, the regional authority that has many districts , in order to see to the interests of the people in those districts where people live far away from the seat of the regional authority, must be met by having a court in that district.
MR.
GUZANA:
What will you
No , don't make such a wild
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am surprised the hon. member for Umtata should say the appeals to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner are , in the district of Mqanduli, 90 per cent, but I think the hon. member for Mqanduli , Chief M. Mtirara has already replied to that.
call it? MR. GUZANA: What did he say?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It will still be the regional authority court, but there is nothing wrong with that. You have periodical courts all over your district and there is nothing wrong with that. You have two courts in one district in the seat of the magistrate's court - there is nothing wrong with that.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He said their courts in Mqanduli are quite efficient and these tribal authority courts are capable of giving good reasons for judgement. As the hon. Chief Ludidi has said , they are courts of record although when it comes to appeal the records of those courts are not considered. Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I am certain that with the exception of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition everybody in this House will support the second reading of this measure.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: What is to prevent you from creating regional authority courts.... ? (Remainder inaudible) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you want to appoint the hon. Mr. Mnyani as magistrate of Umtata? They will be under the regional authority and the head of the regional authority is the paramount chief. MR. GUZANA : down.
MR. GUZANA : You must remember that the Leader is the leader of a party. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : I say so because the Government side has had support from the first speaker, the hon. Mr. R. Madikizela, and the third speaker , the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. I am certain that the paramount chiefs will be happy today that their status is going to be maintained and the regional authority chiefs will also be happy to find they are going to have some work to do. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
If I were you I would sit
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I will not. Now, Mr. Chairman, I come to the criticisms of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition against our tribal courts . I am sorry that such criticisms should come from a man of his standing - a man who should be sympathetic towards his own chiefs .
THE CHAIRMAN : Minister to reply.
MR . GUZANA : You don't know how sympathetic I have been. I have offered the Mqanduli chiefs help and they have never taken advantage of it. ( Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the second reading of this bill I promise hon. members that I shall endeavour to explain the provisions of this bill fully when we deal with the committee stage .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: These tribal courts are just at the stage where we can say they are beginning to understand the procedures of Roman law and South African law. (Laughter)
MR. R. MADIKIZE LA : dealing with civil law?
I shall call on the hon.
MR. GUZANA : the principles now.
We want you to deal with
I thought you were THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : To my mind the hon. the Chief Minister has covered all the necessary points. At the same time the hon. the Deputy Minister of Justice , Mr. R. Madikizela, has also explained. I move that the bill be read a second time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am dealing with civil law and Roman-Dutch law and South African law. It is interesting to note that the chiefs ' sons are now studying and many of them are qualifying in Native law andministration. That means that the Jacobites are going to find themselves in difficulties because the sons of the chiefs are now studying . You are fond of saying you are going to rule over the chiefs , but now the position is reversed. The chiefs are going to rule over you and they are going to try these cases because they are studying and will know the law. You Jacobites are going to feel the sting. (Interjections ) You take the example in my district where there are very few appeals to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court in civil cases heard before the tribal authority court and I am made to understand that is the case all over the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
Agreed to .
The bill was read a second time.
THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The 27th day of this month, Mr. Chairman , Tuesday of next week.
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is constant reference to this outside the House. People are wondering why the number of chiefs who are not elected members should be higher than that of elected members . This motion , therefore , is an effort to try to balance things for this is an unknown feature in all parliaments of the world. Our parliament is inconsistent and we are trying to bring it into line .
INCREASE IN ELECTED REPRESENTATION OF LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY The debate was resumed. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it pleases me to say a few words in connection with the motion by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I am very sorry that a man of his standing has moved such a motion. Firstly, we should consider how we have come to be in this House. We came here, having been given the right to use our custom. We are therefore going to deal with Native custom . We come from different places under different paramount chiefs. We have come to make laws for the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I move that this debate be adjourned until tomorrow. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You have no right. MR. GUZANA : Under rule 75. In effect, I suggest that the motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta stands in terms of that rule.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , my attention has just been drawn to the fact that a member of the Government side moved an amendment to the motion by the hon. Mr. Guzana , and I don't know if there was a member who spoke after that from the Opposition side . I would like that to be put straight in case there was no amendment moved.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You can move the adjournment of the debate , not the House. MR. GUZANA: We will move the adjournment of the debate and the House will adjourn.
GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Then we will pass on to the next motion.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, it would appear that there was an amendment moved, now that we are reminded of it. It was moved by the hon. Mr. Columbus Madikizela and the reason why we have forgotten the fact that he spoke is that he did not speak to the point and merely waffled all over the show. (Laughter) But he did move an amendment and spoke to it in his own way, so if that is the position then we have to reply. I am sorry I made the error of thinking only I had spoken, so the hon. representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland had better sit down. He should not bother himself about these matters because he can never come to this House as an elected member . (Laughter)
to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We shall move the next motion if this is adjourned , which I doubt because we are going to refuse that adjournment . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I have to use my own discretion now. In fact, as the time has almost expired I shall now adjourn the House until 11 a.m. tomorrow.
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 23rd May, 1969 .
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the Secretary read it again to remind ourselves of it.
FRIDAY , 23rd MAY, 1969
Prayers were read.
The Secretary read the original motion and the amendment.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, it looks as though time is nearly up. Would it not be better for the Assembly to adjourn and continue tomorrow?
ANNOUNCEMENTS THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have an announcement to make : -
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He has no right, Mr. Chairman.
PLOUGHING SCHEME 1969 .
MR. JAFTA: I am appealing to the Minister .
Earlier on in the session I made an announcement in the house regarding the 1968 ploughing scheme. In pursuance of that announcement I now wish to inform you that after a careful study of the situation and in consultation with the department of the Chief Minister and Finance I have satisfied myself that it will again be necessary during the coming season to assist farmers to have their lands ploughed in order to ensure a reasonable crop. As a result of stock losses during the drought and further
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , we are not moving. MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the motion that the elected members in this House be increased to place them on a fifty/fifty basis with the nominated members. The present composition of the membership of the Assembly is 64 chiefs and 45 elected members. This appears to be altogether unsatisfactory representation. There 245.
Transkei and finally interested persons from outside the Transkei. People who wish to undertake contract ploughing must apply before the 30th June on the prescribed forms obtainable from the Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry, Private Bag, Umtata. The contract tariff will be R5 per morgen ploughed.
severe losses to be expected this winter many farmers will find it difficult to plough their lands. The Chief Minister and Minister of Finance has agreed to the following conditions for a new ploughing scheme during 1969. (a) All farmers who were given credit to have their lands ploughed during 1968 will again be allowed credit for the new season on condition that they first of all repay half of their loans for the 1968 season before the 31st July and that they also pay 50% of the cost they will incur during the 1969 season. Those farmers who have repaid more than 50% of their 1968 loans will be credited with the amount they have paid over than 50% and will be required to pay the balance only to make up the 50% advance payment for the new scheme. Those who have not repaid 50% of their present loan will not qualify for credit under the new scheme.
(g) The scheme will be financed with funds obtained form repayments of previous loans and an additional sum of R1000,000 which is being made available by the Transkei Reserve and Development Fund. It is anticipated that if the people repay the full 50% of the previous , and 50% of the cost of the new scheme, approximately 100,000 morgen will be ploughed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do feel that this is an important statement affecting the livelihood of every Transkei citizen who is in the rural areas. One might say it is relating to a matter of national importance. May I know from the hon. Minister whether we may be given an opportunity to comment on this statement which is going to affect almost everybody in the Transkei at some time? I think a member of the House should make his comments about a statement of this nature in this House, rather than in the newspapers or anything like that, and such discussion would be constructive or give opportunity to correct any erroneous impressions that might have been gained . One would not like to comment on that statement and undermine its help to the public. That is my appeal to the hon. Minister.
(b) Farmers who wish to avail themselves of the credit facilities for ploughing for the first time must also make an advance payment of 50% of the cost they will incur for ploughing . (c) This means that for the new ploughing scheme only 50% credit will be allowed. Details of the scheme will further be made known by the field staff of my and all magistrates and Department Tribal authorities will aslo be informed. (d ) It must be pointed out that the extent of the scheme must of necessity be limited because the available funds are limited. It is further more not the intention of the department to provide ploughing facilities for all and sundry. The object of the scheme is to assist the needy ones only, those who have lost so many cattle that they cannot plough at all . There are areas in the Transkei that did not lose an abnormally high number of cattle , where the people should be able to plough for themselves as in the past.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, that will all depend on the Chairman and the Chairman of the Business Committee. REQUEST FOR LEAVE TO INTRODUCE NOTICE OF MOTION MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the Assembly is aware the time for notices of motion is passed , and I crave the indulgence of the House to allow me to put in a notice of motion. Although the time for that is over, some important matters do arise and I request accordingly .
(e) In order to establish the precise areas to be provided with credit the percentage of cattle losses in the particular areas will be used as a basis. According to figures different areas will be allowed It may thus be quotas for ploughing. that even in the worst affected areas some people may have to forego credit, because all the worst affected areas will
THE CHAIRMAN : I would ask the hon. member to give in brief the circumstances surrounding his request.
MR. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman , if I have to go into the circumstances surrounding this request I will be obliged to put in a motion.
be allowed a proportionate share of the facilities and there are insufficient funds to assist everybody even in the worst affected areas .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, the hon. Mr. Msengana is asking for As you are leave to give notice of motion. aware , it was announced earlier this session that the last date for notices of motion was the 28th April , and no motion thereafter would be allowed except with the consent of this House. I shall now ask the leaders to decide on this.
( f) I have decided to give preference to Transkei Citizens to undertake contract Second ploughing under the scheme. priority will be given to the Xhosa Development Corporation, thereafter other prospective contractors in the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : 246.
Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , before a motion of this type can be moved I think it is essential that the circumstances leading to the moving of a motion at this stage should be explained, in order that the House may consider whether the motion should be moved or not. If we don't do that it means we will leave the door open for motions just to be moved and then the House asked if they allow the motion to be moved. MR. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman, the reason why the notice of motion was late in this case was because I had first to consult certain members of the Government side and I could not very well give notice of this motion without doing so. Even after consulting these members it happened that the debate on the motion was prolonged and they could not come to a decision in time. I still make my request , Mr. Chairman . My motion is going to be a reasonable one.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall draw the attention of the House to section 128 ( a ) of the rules of this House : "The Assembly shall not originate or pass any motion , bill or incidental provision in any bill for the appropriation of any funds from the Transkeian Revenue Fund or for the imposition of any tax or impost without the recommendation of the Transkeian Minister of Finance in accordance with the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963. (b) Every such recommendation shall be communicated to the Assembly by written message substantially in the following form:... " Therefore the request , Mr. Chairman, falls away. MR. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this rule reads : " The hon. the Minister of Finance , having been informed of the subject matter of the proposed motion... " and then goes on " ...recommends it for consideration of the Assembly. "
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think, Mr. Chairman, we still want to know what the motion is about.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I would like to assist my hon. friend , the member for Cala, in this quagmire in which he finds himself. I do not think the matter ends here , if it ends today. He and his colleagues and the people whom he approached can approach the Minister of Finance and then come to this
MR. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman, I feel the hon. the Chief Minister is now asking me to cover a lot of ground unnecessarily , because I cannot say what the motion is about without giving notice to move .
House with a proper motion, together with the proper consent from the hon. the Minister of Finance.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member is leaving the House in the dark. Suppose you move that the House should close now, or that all the members should be fired at and killed , and we only find that out after you have given notice ? Just what is this motion in connection with?
Mr. Chairman, CHIEF M. MATANZIMA : as far as I am concerned this provision does not state where the recommendation must be made . I don't know whether Mr. Msengana's request is not sufficient recommendation in this matter.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, usually when things are hidden they result in suspicion . I do not see the fear of the hon.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, it would seem that the request should be made to the hon. the Minister of Finance before coming to this House because the message must be in writing. The recommendation of the Minister must be in writing . I suppose the hon . Chief Matanzima means that the hon. the Minister of Finance can still make the necessary recom-
member in just saying he is asking for the leave of the House to introduce such-and- such a motion, without discussing it. That is the usual way in which the permission of the House is sought. We do not just say we ask the leave of the House to introduce a motion. I mean, this thing is very simple . Just say you are seeking the permission of the House to introduce such-and- such a motion and sit down. Surely when the members hear about the nature of the motion they will be all the more anxious to give their consent or to refuse .
mendation here . My recommendation to the hon. member for Xalanga is meant to simplify matters that is, the request be made and then come with a recommendation as it is usually done in the bills that have financial implications . I think this is an opportune moment for the hon. member for Xalanga to follow the hon. the Minister of Finance as he has just left the House . (Laughter)
MR. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman, my notice of motion is in connection with a rise in the salaries of the Legislative Assembly members. THE CHAIRMAN: I shall ask the two leaders of the parties to say whether they are agreed that leave be granted .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , according to this rule 128 the matter so far is out of order.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , surely I don't think any members of the Opposition will refuse such permission. We are , however, faced with this position where this motion has probably what might be called , in governmental language , financial implications . Fortunately, the Leader of the Opposition (I am speaking of the Government side) ( Laughter) is the Minister of Finance and it is over to him now.
NOTICES OF BILLS
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Monday , the 26th day of May , 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for financial assistance to civil pensioners and to amend Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 .
247 .
TRANSKEI
REGIONAL AUTHORITY COURTS BILL, 1969
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have this amendment to move in the Regional Authority Courts Bill. This is to meet the observation raised by the shadow Minister of Justice yesterday : -
R32-40 as against the suggested new minimum of R35-40 per annum. The maximum benefit will therefore be R47-40 per annum - that is, R12 pension plus an allowance of R35-40 . Mr. Chairman, I have no doubt that hon. members on the other side will also support this amendment and I now move that this bill be read a second time.
"That the following sub- clause be substituted sub- clause (1 ) of clause 3 of the Bill :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I second.
'(1) Subject mutatis mutandis to such provisions of sections 10 , 11 , 12 , 14, 15 , 16 , 18 and 19 of the principal Act as are not repugant to or inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, a regional authority court may -
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we shall never oppose anything which is meant for the good of the people , because the express purpose of this bill is that even if the Assembly has not met, provision can be made that whenever necessary steps can be taken to assist the people. When this bill has been passed it enables this department to meet contingencies which may arise, say, in August when the Assembly is not sitting. There is only one thing which does not satisfy us and that is that you just give us a taste on our lips and nothing to swallow into our stomachs. It is proper that when you give us the gravy there should be with it some meat to chew. (Laughter) We support this amendment to the Pensions Act as we would like you to pay attention to the needs of the Transkeian citizens. Think of the people who are in the big labour centres getting this small increase. They have many amenities to assist them in their daily lives, but the poor and indigent people in the reserves here have no other source of livelihood except the benefits they get from your Government. That is why we say you must not be pulled by the nose by the Republican Government. We would like you to study the needs of your own people and if the Republican Government gives a little to their people you should give much more to the Transkeian people , as their needs require . Without saying more we only repeat that we support this amending bill and trust you will take the requirements of the people into consideration.
for
(a) hear civil cases and matters arising out of Bantu law and custom between Bantu persons; and (b) hear appeals made to such court under section 12 (4) of the principal Act. ' " What it really means is just that in (a) the words "resident within the area of jurisdiction" are deleted, and the proviso to the clause still stands. TRANSKEI
PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: 1. Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members, it is with pleasure that I rise to explain the one and only provision of the Transkei Pensions Amendment Bill.
2. You will recall the Honourable the Chief Minister's pronouncement in his budget speech that social pensions payable to the aged , the blind and the disabled are to be increased with effect from the 1st April , 1969 and that I also broached the subject in my policy speech some time ago .
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall put the question that the bill be read a second time.
3. Whilst the social benefits of individuals have already been increased by R3 per annum in the Republic , the Transkeian Government had to await the present session of the Legislative Assembly in order to pilot an enabling Bill through the House for a likewise increase in the benefits payable to Transkeian pensioners.
Agreed to . The bill was read a second time. THE CHAIRMAN: What day for the committee stage ?
4. It is felt, however , that in order to facilitate further adjustments in social benefits it would be advisable , as is the case in the Republic , to provide for the necessary administrative powers to deal with such matters.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Monday, 26th May , Mr. Chairman. INCREASE IN ELECTED REPRESENTATION OF LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
The Bill therefore provides for myself, in consultation with the Honourable the Minister of Finance , to adjust social pensions payable in the Transkei as and when necessary . Re-
The debate was resumed. Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA: members , I rise to speak on this motion which states that the number of elected members should be equal to that of the nominated members. As I rose to speak yesterday the time was up. I mentioned that this was one of the most important motions and that this is a matter
current legislation in this respect will therefore become unnecessary . Hon. members will also note that an increase of R3 per annum for each social pensioner is The old allowance was being provided for. 248.
which the electorate is constantly speaking about They keep asking why the in the reserves. elected members are fewer than the number of It is our request, chiefs in the Assembly. therefore , that the numbers of elected members and the numbers of chiefs be equal. It is our request that this parliament be like other parliaments , even though we are aware that our conditions are not similar to conditions existing elsewhere because in other Houses of Parliament there are no chiefs . Our humble request therefore is merely that the numbers of chiefs and those of elected members should be the same. You will further remember that at one time we moved a motion in this House that the chiefs should be members of an upper house , and the elected members in the lower house . In that way we were making an appeal that the chiefs should not be in this House so that we might not point a finger at them in our discussions . That proposal would be in accordance with the practice and custom of the people because the chiefs would then have the opportunity to review what was discussed by a lower house of parliaSeeing that that proposition was not ment. successful we are now making an appeal that the numbers of elected members and those of chiefs be made equal . One might say we are following the rules and regulations of a particular Though that may be , it must be constitution. remembered that that constitution was drawn up by the people and it is the people who should amend it. A constitution is not unchangeable , that we should have it and keep it as it is without Seeing it was drawn up by any amendment. the people it is the people who must amend it in order that it may suit their conditions. By this motion, therefore , we are making an effort to approach the democratic principles of government · a democracy which is among the steps of a forward march by the western people and the people in whose steps we are following. One might say that this move might cost much money, as it well may today, but when we are trying to correct something which should be corrected money should be made available for that purpose . In this Assembly we speak much about democracy and we are keen that our democracy may not be only in theory but our actions should show we want to follow democratic principles . (Interjections) It is on that account that we make an appeal for something to be done in this regard. Recently we have had visitors from America who came to see this building. They came into this hall and looked through it and they looked up at the galleries and spoke commendably about this building, saying it was very similar to buildings housing parliaments of progressive nations elsewhere. (Interjections ) When they asked as to the numbers of members in this Assembly and we gave it as 64 chiefs and 45 elected members they said this was strange . (Interjections)
visitors here I am trying to show that what we are doing here is a wonder to all other people. It is on that account that I say this motion is quite clear. It is straight-forward and there is nothing concealed in it. Let us make an effort to approach the principles of democracy in this Assembly so that all we do may be in order. I move accordingly , Mr. Chairman . MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I spoke yesterday I was stopped whilst saying I regarded this House as a Bantu court where different paramount chiefs meet in connection with legislation. When legislation is being decided upon, people who know law should be consulted. In this connection I will touch on what was said by the hon . the Leader of the Opposition as well as by the last speaker . The hon. member stated that it is their desire that the chiefs should occupy an upper house and that they should not be present inthis House whilst deliberations are being carried on. They compare our Assembly with the Houses of Parliament in Cape Town and wish to place the chiefs in a higher position comparable with the Senate . There was a question which they never answered when they said they wanted the chiefs to occupy an upper house . This is the question I asked them : What guarantee shall we have when they are left alone to discuss matters in the absence of the chiefs that they would not bring about something injurious to the chiefs who would be occupying the upper house ? (Interjections) We have experience of what we say, as you know what the Senate has done . We recall that when the Senate refused to pass a decision of the House of Assembly in regard to the Coloured vote the Senate made further arrangements in order to enforce their decision. This is what I contend - that when the elected members are left alone to discuss matters here , even though the upper house occupied by the chiefs turned down their decision they would still find means of having their own way. This was attempted in Lesotho. At present the Paramount Chief of Lesotho is just a dummy. Chief Jonathan has the say. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. SIHELE : I am very sorry that when I am holding the floor the mongrels howl at me. We know it is the custom of mongrels to chase even motor- cars , though they know they can never catch them. At one time they caught the hon. member in Cala and they made him cry. (Laughter) This is a serious matter we are now considering and I request the hon. member not to play. As I have stated , Chief Jonathan is playing the fool with the Paramount Chief of Lesotho and that is what would happen here. I think it was wisdom on the part of these people to see to it that the number of chiefs exceeded the number of elected members of this Legislative Assembly. Today we have six chiefs from Lesotho who are in this House . There is a lesser number of their counsellors because it was arranged that the chiefs ' number should be 64 and the elected members should This was done purposely be less than that. to entrench chieftainship. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : I will ask the hon. Chief Makosonke Sigcau to march out , please . Chief M. Sigcau left the Chamber. MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, all parliaments have a great number of elected members and by making reference to what was said by the
249.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
these desperadoes to bring knives to cut the throats of other people when they have not even taken part in regaining the land. (Interjections) The hon. member says I am not keeping to the subject. He has brought this motion yet when he came here he took an oath. The Jacobites cannot put right these matters . Do you remember that when we were being granted self-government many people did not believe that this could be established? I can never forget a wise man who said these words when he was arrested.
MR. SIHELE : In fact, one wonders what is I will reply to the hon. the aim of all this . member who stated that he wanted chiefs and their counsellors to compose this House . He must bear in mind that amongst the 64 chiefs here some of the chiefs come from the same area in line with their genealogical tree and it is likely that though in some sections there could be five or more chiefs from one area, in others there can be only one chief. That shows that if he seriously means that the chiefs should each bring a counsellor some of the chiefs would have no counsellors. (Interjections)
He was speaking about the paramountcy of the Transkei and those who had established it. (Interjections) He wants to know where this happened. I will show him an article written by him and show him also his photograph. When he was in Qamata he stated it was his desire that we should live separately in this country. "Separate development is the only road that can be followed by the people. " He made this statement after eight years and he made it when he saw he was being arrested . At one time he was in Qamata and in 1962 he published that article in the paper of which he was editor . He only remembered when he was being arrested that Matanzima had told them that and that they would all be gaoled if they did not follow separate development and that they were only kicking against the pricks. How can we now set out to destroy something which stops Communism? If people are just elected to come into this House , people of no standing, they will be injurious to the cause of the chiefs. Lastly, supposing you were allowed this membership of 64 and the chiefs were also 64, and then three of the chiefs get sick? Even now some of them are sick. In the House there would be 64 elected members and 61 chiefs. (Interjections) You want your numbers to exceed the number of chiefs , but that we will never accept. You are insulting the chiefs but you have forgotten that Mtirara was born of a daughter of my place.
Order, please. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, if you want to put a question you must stand up, please . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. SIHELE : Let me come back to the point. These people who would persist in this question know nothing about chieftainship and they have never even become counsellors of chiefs and they therefore I am a know nothing about tribal matters . counsellor and I will always remain a counsellor. I am very sorry that the mover of this motion is out now. I know him personally and I know he is a member and a steward in the Church. At one time he did something which I will never forget. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, is that in connection with the motion? I wish you would abide by the motion. MR. SIHELE : I have still half-way to go and I will continue to speak. THE CHAIRMAN: this motion.
It has no connection with
· THE CHAIRMAN: Come to the motion, please , hon. member.
MR. SIHELE : The counsellors should realise they can never rule the chiefs. This House belongs to the chiefs. All these elected members have come just because they have been elected by subjects of the chiefs . Even the fact that they have been elected to come into this House . is because in the Great Places it has been decided upon that those people should be elected to come and represent the people. Those arrangements were made for them bythe chiefs . Now they turn round and say the chiefs must leave this House . Let me refer to the hon. Mr. Mnyani of Dalindyebo region. The Tembus decided that the son of Mnyani should be elected and this was a decision of the Tembu people . Now he is in this House he says he should be treated equally with the chiefs . Why must he now turn round after having been elected by the people and say he does not want the chiefs? The chiefs are owners of this country. I know why some people act in this manner. It is because their fathers have never fought for this country. Hon. Mr. Mnyani , my father died fighting for this country and I therefore cannot allow the chiefs to be taken lightly. The English were taking away this country. Now we want chieftainship to remain since it has been restored, but you say desperadoes should be allowed to take away this country. It is customary for
MR. SIHELE : When people start talking nonsense it is essential that one should attack them. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret to say that the last speaker has completely lost sight of the motion. This is what the motion states that the number of elected members and the number of chiefs within the Assembly should be the same. The last speaker said that those people who advocate that the number of elected members should be equal to the number of chiefs are irresponsible members. I compare him , however , with a Coloured man who does not understand the customs of the Bantu people . I think the hon. member belongs to the Great Place and whenever a public gathering is called at the Great Place the chief does not go there unless he has with him his "mbizo". (Interjections ) The chief over there says this is not a public gathering. The "mbizo" to which I am referring is the "mbizo" called by the chief to discuss matters affecting the people and we have come here to discuss matters affecting the lives of the people. I will be very surprised if the Government side oppose this motion. They ought to 250.
take pride in this because in the last general elections the chiefs said they had a larger number of people who agreed with them. Why should they be afraid now of a large number of people in this Assembly? Seeing they maintain that the Transkei approves of their policy, why do they oppose this as they will have more members in the Assembly? What is required here is that a chief coming to the Assembly must have one of his people so that the number of people will be equal . I realise that the chiefs are now deviating from their custom and practice , because they do not want to have their followers with them. When this self-government was first instituted in Pretoria, the late Dr. Verwoerd said that he would like the number of elected members to be greater than that of the chiefs in the Assembly. He also said in Cape Town, when speaking about the representation ofpeople in the Republican Government, that they would not accept the African people because they would come with their chiefs according to the example in the Transkei . This representation in the House of chiefs who are not elected by the people is unknown anywhere in the civilized world, neither in the Western countries nor in the East. Nowhere is there a parliament similar to the Transkei parliament. One might perhaps say that the purpose of this motion is to increase the number of elected members and that therefore the money payable to them would also increase . All that we require is that the number of chiefs should be equal to the number of elected members. There is not one of the speakers on this side of the House who said he disapproved of the presence of chiefs in this Assembly. The mover of the motion only requires that we follow the custom of the people. We ask the chiefs not to oppose this because we would like to follow what is done by civilized people . It is a truth that cannot be denied that the world belongs to the people . The chief likewise belongs to the people. The future of chieftainship is looked after by the subjects of the chief. In all sociological literature there is nothing like traditional leadership . (Interjections) An hon. member asks who wrote that. An expert in sociological literature is an American by the name of Bocards and in his literature there is nothing like what you maintain should be the position in this Assembly. The leaders must be approved of by the people , especially those who represent them in the Houses of Parliament. The chiefs who love their country should love their own people and they should be above political issues and must be the leaders who are not affected by political divisions. They must be looked after by their own tribesmen as a symbol of the tribe . They should not be guarded because the people perhaps do not approve of their methods of administration, as happens here .
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I am disappointed to see so few members in the House. I shall request the Secretary to read the roll call, but before doing so I shall ask him to ring the bell a second time. 251 .
Mr. Chairman, I MR. M.E. DYARVANE : suggest that we can proceed now because the quorum is sufficient.
THE CHAIRMAN: I was not concerned with the quorum but with the attendance as a whole. Will the members answer to their names when the Secretary reads them out. The roll was called. The debate on the increase in the elected representation of the Legislative Assembly was resumed. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the amendment to the effect that the numbers of chiefs in the Assembly and the number of elected members should remain undisturbed. The hon. members of the Opposition know what they decided upon some years ago. At one time Dr. Bala confessed to the decision you had arrived at. He told the House that you had decided to do away with chieftainship . He went on to say he had broken away from you because you did not abide by your decisions . It is true , and that is just what is painful. You want to follow the example of Ghana and Malawi . You want bloodshed in this country and we do not In regard to your want any bloodshed here . desire that the chiefs hould occupy an upper house, there is nothing in tradition or custom which suggests that chiefs should be separated from their subjects . No such step could be taken in the Transkei before it has become a State . As matters stand your aim is to overthrow this Government, because the very fact that you want to be given a larger number means no administration will be carried out because the voting will not be in order. Above all, the land belongs to the chiefs and the people are possessions of the chiefs. Some people talk of democracy when they actually do not even know what democracy is . They cannot translate "democracy" . We are here representing the people in a government of the people. ( Interjections ) Another matter is this: A subject or commoner is never placed in a higher position than that of a chief. A commoner never occupies the same seat as his better. I thank you , Mr. Chairman. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am ad idem with the last speakers on this side of the House. It reminds me of the actions of an octopus. The hon. member from St. Mark's who spoke before we broke for dinner reminded me of those acts of an octopus . An octopus will emit a fluid, a black fluid , in order to elude detection by the enemy. Now, this constitutional hybridism is not merely useless , but it is positively harmful. We have got to dig back into history and into the constitutional development of our country. Without history citizenship has no fruit, and without citizenship history has no fruit. If you refer back from crude Crown Colony government to representative government and finally to responsible government in 1872 (that is when it was attained) we find those three phases , and the number of elected members in all of those three phases was more than that
work. You say you have been sent by the people to move this . That is not correct. If that were so, you would be in the majority. You have no mandate from the people . Where is it to come from , because as it is you are finished already? Your numbers have been decreased. If this were allowed you would be finished . We have seen You want to form a through what you want. government and you want to be ministers - that is why you are changing about from day to day. We are looking at you. Hon. Mr. Jafta, we will not allow what you want. We know what it is You want to be the government leading to. because you want all the power. (Interjections ) We see what your aim is. I have already told you. I am going to resume my seat, but there is something I do not like which was said by the hon. member for Ngqeleni . Every year he He talks of chiefs harps on the same note. being guarded, although he did not say so in actual terms today. We must stop saying this. I do not know why the hon. Chief Majeke does not stop him because he was also guarded . (Laughter ) He is an envious person and wants to be a minister. He appreciates what I say - I know he does. I repeat that if necessary the chiefs should be guarded. You also want guards but you want to put them on your mealie - lands. I only rose to say that we see through you. This is not necessary . The numbers are correct as We are chiefs and we are going to they are. look after the interests of the people better than you. We know the people better than you do. I am surprised that there are still chiefs in They should cross the floor. the Opposition . Come over and leave those people alone.
of nominated members. South African history is a three- stranded rope . We get the land wars - the so-called Frontier Policy . Those were fought to decide as to who was to possess the land of the country. We get now the attempts at federation, both peaceful and war- like . We get the peaceful attempts (that is , Sir George Grey's federation scheme ) and the war- like one (that is , the coup de grâce) which was the AngloBoer War. Those were to decide as to who was to govern the country, and then the third phase now is the mineral discoveries · gold and diamonds . They introduced yet another phase as to who was to possess the wealth of the country . As I said before this constitutional hybridism is not merely useless , but positively harmful. I was reading the other day the Daily Dispatch of Thursday, the 8th May, 1969 , headed "Constituencies revealed for Coloured Council". I quote : " The report of the Delimitation Commission tabled in Parliament yesterday gives 8 constituencies to the Cape Province , 6 to the Transvaal , 3 to the Free State and 3 to Natal. The Council will consist of 60 members , 40 of whom will be elected and 20 nominated . " Now, really, this constitutional hybridism is at variance with the principles of democracy because I see nothing in it but the rape of one of the most fundamental principles of democracy. (Laughter) Democracy envisages the rule ofthe people , by the people , and for the people . It is a disposition of vulgar minds to villify what they cannot comprehend. (Laughter) Now, in fact, I see a complete reversal of the laws of Mendel , laws of inheritance . There is the law of free assortment promulgated by Mendel and the ratio is : One is to three as three is to six; and three is to six as six is to nine . Now tell me there are 109 members , 45 only elected. Isn't that bottling up the aspirations of the electorate? On this side of the House we are interested in democracy and nothing else but democracy, so help me God . (Laughter ) There is nothing to say it will be the rule of the people by the chiefs , or the chiefs for the chiefs . It is the rule of the people by the people for the people . There seems to be this hallucinatory drug, L.S.D. , and people are afraid of their shadows , in fact. Now, if you run away from your shadow but it keeps on following you , where do you land? (Laughter ) Really, I think that side of the House must see eye to eye with us in this motion. I implore you, and in fact, respectfully request you : Come , come , come to your senses and join us . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA :
Am I not your son- in-law?
PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: You are no son- in- law of mine because you have never given me a cup of tea. (Laughter) We were at school together and when you come to Qaukeni you want me to slaughter a beast, but why should I, because you do nothing for me ? This side of the House is not at all interested in this motion. We are all right as we are. MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am not going to be lengthy. I will deal only with three points . Firstly, the motion states that there should be equal numbers of elected members and nominated members. This motion does not state that a chief cannot be elected. It states that as there are 64 chiefs in this House who are not elected, there should be 64 members elected by the electorate . That does not mean to say that a chief who desires to be elected cannot go and canvass for votes and be elected by the electorate . Even today we have chiefs who are not in this House , but who would like to come here to represent the people . Now an opportunity is being offered even to them so that if they so wish they can present themselves for election. Listen to what I am going to tell you . The chiefs here are also people and they can also come to this House as ordinary members , not as chiefs . I can see that it is the desire that the chiefs should fill up this House. Those chiefs who are not in this House can canvass for votes and be elected so that the 64 members to which it is desired to
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to oppose the motion. There is no need whatsoever for it. You people talk of a Senate and two houses. Long, long ago we told you it was something that would not do at all. MR. K.M. GUZANA: That is not what we are asking for. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU: You mention fifty/fifty. That won't do either. We are.not going to break our own Constitution. You know that would not work at all , but still you want it. Hon. members across the floor, that would not 252.
was not in accordance with the Constitution. In this way you want to destroy chieftainship in the Transkei because you want to be the real rulers . This would be a better motion if it said the number of chiefs in this Assembly should be increased . Before the chiefs become chiefs they are appointed by the people . The appointment of chiefs occurs when family members come together and decide who is to be chief, and then they go to the people . This might be all right if, from the outset, there would have been no Opposition . An Opposition is all right, but not yours . An Opposition is all right if it carried out the policy of the Government. (Interjections)
increase the membership can be composed of chiefs . I am pleased to be able to say this to the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni . He was present in Pretoria when the Constitution of this parliament was discussed. I found in the May, 1963 , Hansard, the honourable Dr. Verwoerd told Parliament that he had met people from the Transkei who wanted to form a parliament and he said he had told these people to go and draw up a constitution and to take it to him so that he could see if it was a suitable one . They had returned to him and told him that the people who should form the membership of this parliament would be the chiefs and headmen. He suggested that would not be correct because they should not put into parliament the servants of the Government only. They should go back and consult again and thereafter they returned and gave a report that the membership , as far as the chiefs were concerned , should be 64 and the elected members 45. He further stated that that arrangement was not satisfactory , but he would let it go through with the hope that they would soon find out their mistake . (Interjections) Order, please. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members must please stop these interruptions .
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . CHIEFTAINESS SIGCAU: Your Opposition is to the people . I don't know why you say the number of elected members should be increased, because suppose only 31 members could be elected - you would not have been here . We are all right with 64 chiefs here . We have been sent by the people . Perhaps in future when you come to your senses and join us this might be all right, (Interjections ) but it will not come right with the present members across the floor. Perhaps it will be all right when I am an old woman of 82. ( Laughter) I say the membership is all right as it is .
MR. MNYILA: The hon. member was present when this Constitution was drawn up. Today when the mover of the motion introduced this I thought he was going to put this matter right. We should not expect angels from above to come down and put right our matters. We must put right our own affairs . You have already passed the no- confidence motion. You must not worry about it now, but you must decide what is right and wrong . I cannot forget those people who are dull and foolish and who, after things have been put right for them, cannot understand. A chief is important to his people because he If represents God on earth to his people .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think we should consider this as mature people . According to Bantu custom we are not used to discuss matters with women when we are talking of matters of May be we are (Laughter) public interest. trying to follow the Western way which we have not yet reached in our standard of culture . We should therefore carry on in our own way. The ladies who are in this House should not take me amiss , but they should realise that I am just dealing with pure Native custom . According to custom even when we have attended a beer drink the old grey-headed men have their own place and the middle-aged men have theirs . Where chiefs are concerned, the chiefs stay by themselves , with the exception of privileged counsellors , and other counsellors stay away at the gateway in order to give a report to the chiefs of any visitors. Even when I am asleep I think, when I am dealing with matters of the people at large , about those matters , and that makes me worried . We say we are following the culture of the White man though we are In their Parliament the White people Black. have got the younger lot who discuss matters , after which they will bring it to the elder members. Were it in accordance with my way of thought, the paramount chiefs , including myself, would not be in this House and we would not even be in the upper house. What kind of paramount chiefs are we who come and discuss matters and people jeer at us?
the chief directs that something be done by his subjects it will be done . Today you are blocking the way of chiefs who are not in this House . Now we are going back to the electorate to say they should be elected. On that day when this House shall be composed of chiefs , we shall be in a position to put the blame on the chiefs and when people cry and blame the legislature we will say to the people : Don't worry us , it is the chiefs who have legislated in this manner . Why should you choose sides , seeing that this matter is quite clear ? Is it because this motion originates from the Opposition? If you return to your home and you have no wife , who will welcome you? If there is any opposition in this House, that opposition is similar to your wives who, when you are preparing to do a certain thing, say : That is not right, it should be done this way. (Laughter) You will find no-one else to tell you what course to take . You will see it yourself. CHIEFTAINESS A. N. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the amendment. The foundation of the Transkei Government rests on chieftainship, that is why we do not want the number of chiefs to be the same as the number of elected members. Things went wrong after the inception of this Government when you people decided to establish an Opposition, to which we wrongly agreed because it
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear , hear. PARAMOUNT CHIEF DALINDYEBO : What we should do is put our signatures to things that have been thoroughly discussed . If we were uplifting the standard of our people we should
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after we have consulted together we should put matters straight. It is unknown that a father and his son who has not been circumcized should sit together in a beer drink.
do things differently. Even the interpreter speaks of us as " paramount chief" instead of referring to us as " K-I- N- G " . Am I making a mistake my fellow colleagues on that side ( Laughter) Why must we stay together with the sub- chiefs , instead of allowing them to deal with these matters and bring them to us for signature ? Are we paramount chiefs or kings ? Paramount Chief Jongilizwe , there is something I must say . You are not educated but your daughter, I believe , comes from the University of Fort Hare . How did she go there if you were uneducated ? I am not educated but my younger brothers are educated. I even went to the installation of the son of my younger brother . If I am unable to
PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : On a point of order, the Paramount Chief should withdraw the word "dummy parliament" , because he himself went to Pretoria. PARAMOUNT CHIEF DALINDYEBO : If I explained to you about our government , the Government was trying to steamroll matters . I just went to Pretoria, not with the intention of asking for this . I am sorry that my younger brother who was sitting together with me made me sign, because I did not want to sign when Mr. Mills and others desired us to do so. Mr. Chairman, there is something we can never help and that is , people who have not been properly brought up. You cannot correct their behaviour here . Fancy them shouting at me , though I am their king! You must remember you are in Tembuland here and I am the King of the Tembus . You must pay due respect to me. (Laughter) I am going to speak to the kings on the other side and tell them we should leave these people so that they should not insult us. We are the kings . If an upper house is
write , what difficulty will I have , because he will show me how to write ? (Laughter) PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the lower house will say they are not going to listen to us if we object to any legislation which comes from their hands , because they will say we are only illiterates. That is what the lower house will say. PARAMOUNT CHIEF DALINDYEBO: Let us give this chance to those educated men such as the hon. Mr. Guzana - doctors , lawyers and other similarly educated people , to come and make matters right in this House . Here in Tembuland these chiefs Mtirara and Ngangelizwe were not educated but they did their work well . Even now the White people had their chance of infiltrating into this country through our fathers , Dalindyebo, Jongilizwe and the rest because these people were taken to school. You should therefore nurse no fears , Chief, because anything that will be dealt with by those members of the lower house we will sign, but something that we do not agree with we will not sign.
created you shall be improving this dummy parliament. At the present stage we are still a disgrace to the whole world . We are taken as mere dummies . Mr. Chairman, I hope that I have persuaded the King and the Queen who are sitting on that other side , and I expect to see them cross the floor tomorrow morning and join my ranks . (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wonder if you feel the same as I do? In my opinion this motion has been thoroughly discussed and I would like now to bring it to a close .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : You are a witness to the insults we suffered at the hands
MR. M. DINWAYO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to say something on this . I am thankful for the opportunity to speak after mongrels have been howling. I speak as the son of a chief. You will remember on Tuesday I said we can foresee what a jackal intends to do. The mover of the motion, the hon. Mr. Guzana, said chiefs are useless . As the son of a chief I kept that in mind and I came to this conclusion: If at all he follows history he will find that chiefs have always done a great deal for the people . Chiefs are natural leaders of the people . It is not commoners who must lead the chiefs . The hon. Paramount Chief who has just sat down suggests that chiefs should occupy an upper house . We heard this last year from the Press and as sons of the chiefs we told our followers that the Leader of the Opposition says the chiefs should be removed from this House . Our people said : We do not want him himself in that Assembly. To come to his motion, he suggested that the number of elected members should be the same as those of nominated members who come here by virtue of right. What I want to say to him today, and to his followers, is that he must first accept separate development and wait, then he must come to the chiefs and then we will tell him what to do. In my capacity as son of a chief I will tell him
of Rajuili and others . They were abusing us and calling us illiterates. How can we trust such people ? PARAMOUNT CHIEF DALINDYEBO: Ithank you very much, Paramount Chief, for reminding me about that. It is for the same reason I say we should remove ourselves from this House so that we are not insulted by these lower-rank people. OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear.
We PARAMOUNT CHIEF DALINDYEBO : must leave them alone to do the work and when they have done it they must bring it to us so that we may put it right. I do not know how the affairs happen in your area , but I should tell you that in Tembuland the Tembus do not know anything about parties. They only know something about their paramount chief and king, and they respect what has been said by their paramount chief as well as the paramount chief respects them . On your side you say something that has not been said by your followers , your own subjects . Hon. members , it was not my intention whatsoever to speak, as I was not prepared to speak in a dummy parliament such as this , but I should make this request so that 254.
the chief may claim that he is a representative of the people (and this I doubt very much) he cannot claim that he has been sent here by the cast votes of the voters in the Transkei .
he can have this increase which he wants , as long as he has a mandate from the people , but he will have no mandate as long as he remains on that side . We must first get full independence and thereafter he must ask the chiefs what must be done . He must agree to self-development , then come to us and ask us what to do. You must form a labour party if you want to lead the people.
MR. R.E. MAPASSA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman. I am a Gcaleka and I am not even going to introduce myself as a chief, because everybody can see I am a chief. I would like to know from the hon. member in what way....
PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the speaker who is standing is just the sort of person who should sit down because that is just what we have been saying here. We say the chiefs should occupy an upper house and that is what he is saying.
But you are asking a THE CHAIRMAN : That is not a point question, hon. member. This is what I want to understand of order. from you: Is the hon. Mr. Guzana out of order , and if so in what way?
MR. DINWAYO: I say, Mr. Chairman, as long as they are what they are it is not the time for this, and as long as they hold the position they do they will never have the numbers . They must enter through the door , not through the roof or windows. It is not only we in the Assembly who are looking at them. The entire Transkei has fixed its gaze on them. If this House will agree to this motion then the people will kill us. I think Ihave already said they should go to the people . We in this Assembly cannot change this Constitution which was drawn up in Pretoria. It will only be changed by the people. We will tell the people that we are not making the number of elected members the same as the chief. (Interjections) It is futile to suggest that we should have the same number as they - they being commoners. They will not listen when we say they must do away with this supposed Opposition which is not really an Opposition. (Interjections)
MR. MAPASSA: I want to ask him a question , Mr. Chairman. In what way will he get assistance from his suggested equal numbers ? That is question No. 1. The next one is : Are nominated members obliged to be on the Government side? Can't they join the Opposition if they so desire? THE CHAIRMAN : I have already closed the discussion on this motion. I would like the answer MR. MAPASSA: to those two questions , then I will sit down. Mr. Chairman, thus the MR. GUZANA : number of elected members will then be equal to the number of nominated chiefs. Here there is no personal gain sought to be achieved and anybody in this House should cease to argue on a personal note and on a selfish note . The hon, member for Gcaleka wants to know what I shall gain . There is no need to put " I " first the people . I would rather affecting matters in you put the people first and put yourself last . We do not seek to gain anything as an Opposition from this increased elected membership . What we would like to see is an increased elective representation in the House so that the people have a greater say through their elected members on matters that are going to be the subject of legislation here . If the pronoun " I" is the operative word in these matters , are you not laying yourself open to the accusation as a chief that you support the Government because it suits your purse to support the Government? Are you supporting the Government because your misdemeanours will be condoned by the Government because you are placing "I" first? If you have misappropriated funds aren't you going to get the alternative of a fine because you support Isn't this ego destroying the Government? true representation of the views of the people , because you are thinking of self all the time ? You see, it is good for you to support the Government because you know that you have done quite a number of things which would come out if you did not support the Government. Now, I have replied to your question No. 1 , which is self-centred and egotistical. I think it is time you learnt that when you come to this House you are not looking after your own skin but after the interests of your people. The question is asked: Are nominated members obliged to support the Government and not come over to
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. DINWAYO: Mr. Chairman, I see they are feeling my attack because they are asking me to sit down. I thank you. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think most of the debate from the Government side has been off the rails altogether, but as a grandfather I would not mind my grandchildren messing up my trousers with their fatty hands . (Laughter) My only trouble is that they are creeping to the fire and I want to bring them back to a proper understanding of what the motion seeks. In this motion there is no suggestion that a Senate be established. Whilst that is part of our objective it is not embodied in this partiIcular motion which is before the House . Furthermore , I want to point out that there is nothing which suggests that the number of chiefs in this House should be diminished. We have allowed the number 64 to remain as it is , but that the number of elected members should be raised so that it is equal to the number of chiefs in this House . That is the purpose of this motion. PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: trick.
It is a
MR. GUZANA: What is the object? To give the people greater representation in this House through the ballot box. However much
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substance of this motion and I feel that this House , in honour to itself and in honour to democracy , should vote for this motion as it stands. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
the Opposition? I think the hon. Mr. Ntola has given the reply to that question. He said this administration will fail if there is a fifty-fifty representation in this House, so that in order to make possible administration you must have a majority of nominated members who have no obligation to the public. Therefore there is a created majority because there is a nominated majority in this House , and you see, that is an admission by the hon. Mr. Ntola that the policy of "apartheid" can never be said to have been accepted by the people because the Constitution is so conditioned that it gives the Government a majority willy- nilly. We have at the present moment elected members inthis House and some support the governing party and others support the Opposition. We do not quarrel with that sort of division. That is as it should be if people are convinced that "apartheid" is their saving grace , and we say that an elective Assembly is not the graveyard of an Opposition. There will always be an Opposition - I don't care where you go - but the Opposition must be created and the government must be based on democracy. The suggestion by the Government has always been that we want to do away with the chiefs. There is no suggestion of that in this motion at all, but even to prove that we do not want to do away with chiefs we nominated a candidate for election to this House who is a chief so that it is really deceiving the chiefs in this House to suggest that when we bring this motion to the House we are trying to destroy either the institution of chieftainship or the presence of chiefs in this House . (Interjections) If we have political parties in the Transkei we shall of necessity nominate a candidate who supports our policy, and nothing stops the Government side from nominating chiefs as candidates for election to this House. Let us accept the fact that if this government is based on a majority of nominated members we must move forward rather than backwards , and the progression of a governing institution is towards democracy rather than restricted representation. The more you have safety valves in your boiler, the less are the chances of the boiler bursting open. The guarantee of a good and solid government is that it should have the elected members serving as safety valves for the venting of the views of the people through them . The reaction of the electorate at the present moment is this : That their views are not adequately expressed in this House and they use the chief as the scapegoat for that. Is that not going to discredit the chiefs in the eyes of their subjects ? Is it not better that in order to obviate such a reaction there should be increased elected representation in this House? Now, there is an amendment by the hon. exMinister of Agriculture and Forestry to the effect that the numbers as at present are in order. Now, that is a mule-like attitude , refusing to move forward. They will not see that there should be progression; there should be development; there should be advancement. If you are going to have meat factories , furniture factories , tea factories which were not here before, why can't you amend your Constitution progressively towards a democratic body? Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I do feel that there is no argument that holds water against the
THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Mr. Guzana, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. C. Madikizela. I shall put the question that the words sought to be deleted in the amendment should stand part of the original motion. The words were deleted. The words sought to be substituted were substituted. The motion as amended was carried. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 26th May, 1969. MONDAY, 26th MAY, 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table of this House : (a) a photostatic copy in black and white of a proposed Coat of Arms for the Transkei ;
(b) the heraldic description of the proposed Coat of Arms ; (c) a memorandum explaining in greater detail the composition and symbolical meaning of the symbols and figure -heads embodied in the proposed Coat of Arms, and I request leave of this House to move a motion that the registration of a Coat of Arms for the Transkei in terms of the Heraldry Act, 1962 (Act No. 18 of 1962) be approved in principle by this Legislative Assembly, and that the proposed Coat of Arms be referred to a select committee of this House consisting of the Chief Minister , Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima, the Minister of the Interior, Mr. M.C. Ndamse and Messrs . M.H. Canca, N.V. Reve, K.M.N. Guzana and J.M. Dumalisile for further consideration and report during the present session of this Legislative Assembly. The original colours of this coat of arms are available for inspection in the Secretary's office and he may have this on the table for members to inspect. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister seeks to have the permission of the House to move a motion. Is that seconded? 256.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to.
Agreed to. VEDT IC THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So will the hon. Minister move his motion tomorrow morning? THE CHIEF MINISTER: motion tomorrow morning.
House Resumed
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I have to report that the bill to amend the Pensions Act has been passed without amendment. What date for the third reading?
I will move the
TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Chairman, tomorrow, the 27th May.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and I move that it be read a first time . In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 , (Act No. 48 of 1963) I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) that the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly.
TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
Mr.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second. On Clause 1 Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving Clause 1 of this bill I would like to explain that the original Act (that is , Act No. 4 of 1965) does not provide for sub-chiefs . The Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 was, however, recently amended by the Republican Government to make provision for sub- chiefs and it is proposed to effect a similar amendment in the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965. This section only seeks a definition of chief and I hope the House will pass it without any argument. I move the adoption of Clause 1 .
The bill was read a first time . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The second reading will take place tomorrow, the 27th May, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter. TRANSKEI PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House goes into committee .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I second. MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I would like an explanation from the hon. Minister as to whether in an area which has a chief and a sub-chief it be possible for a sub- chief to become a member of this Assembly when the chief is not a member.
Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, if I remember correctly the hon. the Minister ofthe Interior indicated at the second reading that the basic grant is R12 and that there is in addition an allowance of R35-40 . May I know how the basic R12 is determined? Can you say what factors are taken into account in determining the R12 basic, if it is possible to do at short notice?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is out of order .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I rule the question out of order. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Clause 2 ....
Before moving
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, it is laid down in the original Act.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ?
MR. GUZANA: Yes , but what were the factors originally determining the basic allowance.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : agreed.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I will be in a position to reply to that later.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Don't be in such a hurry. Let the Chairman put it.
Yes, the House
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree?
Clause put and agreed to.
Clause 2 put and agreed to .
Agreed to. 257.
that the amendment seeks to take away the consultative recommendation from the paramount chief. In a tribal authority area there may be three headmen and one of them may be recommended as head of the tribal authority and it may well be that the people are dissatisfied with two of the three headmen who are candidates for the position of headman of their tribal authority.
On Clause 2 THE CHIEF MINISTER: I would like to go on with my explanation and disregard these unnecessary interjections . Section 3 (2 ) of the Transkei Authorities Act, No. 4 of 1965 , provides that the head of a tribal authority shall , in areas where there resides only one chief or if there is no chief only one headman, be such chief or, if there is no chief, the headman or person designated as head by the Minister after consultation with any paramount chief concerned . The difficulty experienced with the section is that should a chief agree to establish more than one tribal authority in his area of jurisdiction as chief, he can only be head of the tribal authority embracing the area in which he resides. In the other tribal authorities either a sub-chief or headman would be the head. This is considered by some chiefs to be a diminution of their powers , with the result that they hesitate to divide unwieldy authorities into smaller authorities , and in this clause it is desired to amend the said section to provide for a chief to be head of more than one tribal authority, and also to safeguard a chief's position so that someone other than a chief cannot be appointed as head of a tribal authority in the area of jurisdiction of a chief unless the chief agrees thereto. I move the adoption of this clause.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: to their paramount chief.
Therefore the paramount MR. GUZANA : chief, it is sought by this amendment, should go to the people and get their recommendation. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is what he does. MR. GUZANA: Now the amendment seeks to make a categorical provision for that consultation to take place . It may be presumed that the paramount chief or the chief will consult the people, but he need not necessarily do so. We want it to be obligatory upon him to have consultation with the tribe , so that he may know the reaction of the tribesmen who fall under the authority of the tribal authority as to who of the two or three headmen they would like to be head of the tribal authority.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Engcobo made an allegation about the ambiguity of the word "consultation". In the course of his attempt to cure this ambiguity he has sought to plunge the Government into a greater ambiguity. In his amending proviso he does not say who must effect the consultation and obtain the approval. The hon. the Chief Minister has in no uncertain terms described the intention of the section, and that is , that it is left to the paramount chief to consult with his tribe . The strict interpretation of this proviso would seem to lay the door open to the department to consult with the tribe and even to neglect the paramount chief. It says "Provided that the approval of the tribe affected is first obtained. " By whom must it be obtained?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment that after the word "concerned" in section 3 (2) at the said paragraph the following words be added : "Provided that the approval of the tribe affected is first obtained. " In fact, the whole thing revolves around the word "consultation" . I see some vagueness in the word. THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is nothing vague about the word "consultation" . MR. MGUDLWA: That is why the approval of the tribe concerned must first be obtained. MR. K.M. GUZANA : ment.
They will say that
I second the amend-
MR. GUZANA: chief.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I stand up to oppose this amendment very, very strongly. When these heads of authorities are appointed by the Minister he first seeks the recommendation of the paramount chief. In other words, in an authority that consists of several headmen the paramount chief consults his own tribe and then makes a recommendation to the Minister . Now, this amendment seeks to take away that right of the paramount chief to make recommendations to the Minister and says that the ordinary commoners should make recommendations. We cannot agree to that at all . The spirit of Bantu authorities is that the paramount chiefs must rule their tribes and that they must make consultation with their tribes and then make recommendations to the Government.
By the chief or paramount
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It does not say so .
MR. GUZANA: The previous reading of the Act says who is to make the recommendation. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The amendment is very ambiguous . That proviso could point to the department, to the paramount chief, to anybody. I therefore feel that this side of the House cannot agree to that amendment. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, there is nothing ambiguous about that proviso. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Vote ! MR. GUZANA: with....
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, first of all I must refute the allegation
258.
When the proviso is read
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You must know proper English and you don't know it when it is used in legal terms.
the approval of the tribe has been obtained. It does not say who is to get the approval .
The Minister does not go MR. GUZANA : to the tribe , he goes to the paramount chief, and it is the paramount chief or the chief who will obtain the approval of the tribe . The hon. the Chief Minister has said that the paramount chief need not consult the people and that is our fear · that the people will not be consulted .
MR . GUZANA : When the proviso is read into the proper section there is no ambiguity at all. It would read "after consultation with any paramount chief concerned provided the approval of the tribe is first obtained. " The Minister will consult with the paramount chief, the paramount chief will consult with...
THE CHIEF MINISTER : And even if he does not consult them ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It does not say so here.
MR. GUZANA : We want to ensure that no arbitrary powers are exercised by the paramount chief or the chief over his subjects . (Interjections ) Therefore the people must be consulted and thus we require this proviso .
MR. GUZANA : It says he may, after consultation with the paramount chief concerned... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: According to this he may consult the tribe direct, too. MR. GUZANA : It does not say so, but it says "after consultation with any paramount chief concerned ... "
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Chairman. Let us vote.
The amendment was lost by 18 votes to 63 after a division as follows :-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , after
NOES .
YESES.
Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Mditshwa Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Percy Ntibane Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo
TELLERS: 1. 2.
No reply, Mr.
L.L. Mgudlwa S.K. Ndzumo
259.
Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H.Z. Zulu
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is in no doubt about the interpretation of this section. He is quite aware that in these cases the magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner has concurrent jurisdiction with the chiefs and headmen, and the Bantu Affairs Commissioner has never gone out of his way to oust a chief who has concurrent jurisdiction with him , or a headman. When cases are brought before the headman they are brought before the headman and his tribal authority , and it is inconceivable that a chief would leave his seat and go and oust a headman and his authority from trying cases. By concurrent jurisdiction we mean that the people falling under the area of jurisdiction of the chief, whether they are in the area of the tribal authority of the headman , are free to go and institute proceedings before the chief having jurisdiction over the area, but, before this amendment which is sought, the chief having jurisdiction over the whole area could not try cases of people coming from the other tribal authorities . Now we want to put the matter beyond doubt, that the chief who has many tribal authorities under him will have concurrent jurisdiction with those tribal authorities , even if there should be a sub- chief under him .
Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the adoption of clause 3 I just want to make a short explanation. In terms of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 , (Act No. 38 of 1927) a headman could only try cases in his area of jurisdiction and even where he was head of a tribal authority, therefore , his jurisdiction would be limited to the administrative area over which he had jurisdiction. Section 4 (3) of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965 , was then formulated to increase the area of jurisdiction of a headman who is head of a tribal authority, for the purposes of conferring civil and criminal jurisdiction upon him. Unfortunately, the section was so worded that it could be interpreted to have the opposite effect to what was intended in respect of chiefs , as a chief's area of jurisdiction could be regarded as reduced in cases where he has more than one tribal authority in his area of jurisdiction as chief. It is intended to amend the said section to place the matter beyond any doubt that such chief retains concurrent jurisdiction with the head of a tribal authority in his area, whether such head be a headman or sub- chief. I move the adoption of this clause , Mr. Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are on your feet, I thought originally the idea was to ensure that the chief does not feel his area of jurisdiction has been reduced by the creation of tribal authorities under him .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I ask for further explanation in regard to this point: Where the chief has a headman who is head of a tribal authority, the chief can oust the head and try cases brought to the tribal authority under that head who is a headman - is that the position? And where litigants falling within the area of jurisdiction of a head who is in effect a headman, are they free to institute their civil action at the tribal authority of the chief, in view of the fact that the chief is chief of the tribe as a whole, although you may have the tribe
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You used the wrong word , "oust " . MR. GUZANA : What should it be? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : he could sit.
Whether
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , he could request the chief to come and sit. MR. GUZANA :
divided up into three or four tribal authorities ?
260 .
I am thinking of a chief
THE CHIEF MINISTER : with the Chairman.
coming to the tribal authority and saying : I am the chief of the whole tribe and I want to take this case. Can he do that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: nothing to stop allows him to.
him
CHIEF NDAMASE : tion.
He can. There is
I just want an explana-
if the tribal authority THE CHIEF MINISTER :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : not dictators.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are not going to argue with the Chairman. You are going to argue with us. Now I want to draw the attention of the hon. member to regulation 114 : " Where an amending bill is introduced to amend a specific section or sections of the principal Act or to enact a new section thereof, an amendment in committee shall be confined to the subject matter of the clauses of the bill as read a second time, and to any amendment consequential thereon. "
No, the chiefs are
Supposing he will do that.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You imply that the chiefs are dictators and they can go around ousting people?
MR. GUZANA : No, if the chief goes to the tribal authority and says : I am the chief, I am going to take the case . THE CHIEF MINISTER: answer that.
Mr. Chairman....
CHIEF NDAMASE : You are not the Chairman.
MR. GUZANA: Not as of right?
MR. GUZANA :
You cannot argue
CHIEF NDAMASE : sequential.
I am not going to
My amendment is con-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Ifthe tribe says it is all right.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not. So , Mr. Chairman, the amendment is out of order and I pray you rule it out of order finally .
MR. GUZANA : Your amendment seems to exclude chiefs ' jurisdiction in a tribal court.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have ruled and I abide by that ruling.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, it says he can sit on a case but not act foolishly. The chiefs are reasonable people , you see. They are not idiots. I move the adoption of the section.
Clause 4 put and agreed to . On Clause 5 THE
CHIEF
MINISTER :
Mr. Chairman , before moving the adoption of Clause 5 I want to make a short explanation. Provision is made in section 32 (2 ) of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965, for the appointment of substitutes for heads of tribal and regional authorities where such heads are unable to attend and preside at any specific meeting of such authorities. Heads of authorities are , however , often required to be absent from their areas for long periods such as, for instance , when they attend sessions of the Transkei Legislative Assembly, with the result that tribal authorities are without heads for long periods . The fact that at such times the authorities are without heads hampers administration seriously and provision should be made in the Act for the appointment of a person to act as head in the absence of the head. I move the adoption of this section , Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond. Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 THE CHIEF MINISTER : The amendment of section 31 of the original Act renders this proviso to section 10 (3) superfluous . I move the adoption of clause 4. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Under this clause there are two amendments , one by the hon. Chief Ndamase and the other by the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi . I rule both these amendments out of order under rule 111 and 114 because they seek to introduce a new matter not embodied in They affect the the bill before the House. composition of the original Act, whereas the bill before the House only deals with the proviso.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I put a question? You maintain that my amendment is out of order. I thought it was in order because the definitions have been altered and the amendment arose out of that.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 6 Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : before moving this section I want to make a short explanation. No provision exists in the Act for the deposal of a headman except that laid down by section 46 of the said Act. The said section, however, requires that an inquiry should be held before a headman can be deposed but does not provide for all exigencies and is also somewhat cumbersome and lengthy in its application. For example , although it may be
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The definitions don't give you scope to go outside the bill. CHIEF NDAMASE : It became clear that we must put section 10 right. I would like an explanation on this.
261 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, but they will make representations through the correct channels to the Minister. If you cannot understand English, you see , I cannot help you . (Interjections) The Minister is the Cabinet and representations are made to him through these bodies concerned.
quite clear that a headman has lost the confidence of the residents of his administrative area, no steps can be taken against him under existing legislation. Similarly, when a headman becomes incapable , for example by reasons of old age or ill-health , no provision exists under which steps can be taken against him. It is therefore desired to amend section 41 (5 ) of the principal Act to include provision for the deposal of a headman or acting headman by the Minister , after consultation with a paramount chief, chief having jurisdiction and the tribal authority. Now, I wish the members would turn to section 41 (5) of the original Act where they will find the grounds on which the Minister may appoint a headman, but we would like that section amended so as to have these grounds of deposition. Section 46 remains as it is . I will only come to it in Clause 7.
MR. GUZANA: You cannot argue in contrary ways. You argue one way in section 2 and now directly the opposte in this section. THE CHIEF MINISTER: in the opposite way.
MR. GUZANA : You are. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am telling you that the chief always consults with the people. You are trying to mislead the House .
MR . GUZANA : Will the headman dealt with under this amendment seek to be dealt with under section 46 ? If, for instance , he is deposed after consultation with his paramount chief and he feels the deposition is unjustified can he request that he be dealt with under section 46 of the principal Act?
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, in section 2 the argument was that the Minister does the act and the amendment "provided that the approval of the tribe affected is first obtained" would suggest that it is the Minister of the Department who should obtain the approval. Now the hon. the Chief Minister wants to argue in the opposite direction. We say if this section is read within the context of the meaning he sought to give us in the previous section then he is doing the act, so that he is going to consult with the tribal authority; he is going to consult with the paramount chief or any other It says "the Minister may, after conchief. Who consults ? It is the Minister sulting..." who consults the tribal authority and yet in motivating this section he says he waits until the people make representations .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no provision for that in this section. The section is clear and unambiguous that the Minister will consult with the paramount chief. It means that the paramount chief or the tribal authority or the chief exercising jurisdiction shall submit representations to the Minister that this headman should be deposed . It is not the Minister who will initiate . It will come from below. MR. GUZANA: No , it says "by the Minister after consultation with the paramount chief………. " etc. In other words , it is the Minister who deposes .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : consult..
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the whole thing would seem to depend as to who initiates the action. (Interjections ) Just listen, please , don't howl before I start talking. Now, at times the tribe might come to the office of the magistrate , perhaps , to complain against a headman...
MR. GUZANA: In other words the Minister initiates the action because he consults.... No, the Minister
CHIEF Minister.
MR. GUZANA: Yes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : you he never does.
Yes, and then
: MR. GUZANA: No, you cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time. Let us have this clarified , please.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , it is the people who are affected , or the paramount chief or the chief. They write to the Minister through the magistrate of the district and it is the Minister who effects the deposition after having consulted these bodies who are feeling the pinch.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : never does it.
I am not arguing
S.S.
MAJEKE :
Or to the Chief
No, I am telling
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ...or even to the chief or even to the Chief Minister, if you like it that way. What must the office of the Chief Minister do? He must consult with the paramount chief or with the chief or with the tribal authority. Sometimes the paramount chief himself might report to the magistrate about a certain headman. The magistrate sends a report to the office of the Chief Minister . (Interjections) Do you want an explanation or not? We will put the matter to a vote if you want it that way . You don't want to reason. (Interjections)
MR. GUZANA: That is what you provide for in this . THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Minister deposes , that is why you start with the word "Minister". You cannot say that the paramount chief or chief or tribal authority will depose the chief after consultation with the Minister . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : You say the people will make representations. 262.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please. Hon. members must listen to the explanation .
was trying to explain the reaction ofthe Government in these matters , and probably the hon. member for Qumbu is so obsessed about this matter that he does not even want to listen to the explanation from me. Before the coming into power of the Transkei Government in 1964, the position was as follows with regard to headmen: The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development deposed a headman on the recommendation of the magistrate which was submitted through the Chief Magistrate . Now, the Act (that is , the Native Administration Act of 1927) said that the Minister may depose the headman on satisfying himself that he should be deposed . No Minister ever came down from Pretoria to come and consult the magistrate in the Transkei about the conduct of headmen. It is the same with the Chief Minister. He deposes the headman when he has received representations which go through the magistrate from the local people - that is , the chief, headman, paramount chief or the tribal authority. (Interjections) Why do you want it said another way? You want to put it your own way. I am telling you what the position is according to this . The Minister may, after consultation with these
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is this · that the Minister cannot depose that headman without consultation with the paramount chief, chief or tribal authority. That is what it means . MR. GUZANA: the point .
Don't try to run away from
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: not running away.
That is
MR. GUZANA : The operative word is "the Minister" who may depose or appoint. Now, why doesn't it say that it must be initiated by the people themselves ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: what I am explaining to you . MR. GUZANA: provisions.
That is
That is not included in the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is not the Chief Minister who is going to initiate that. The people must report and then the Chief Minister cannot depose that headman without consultation with the paramount chief, chief or tribal authority. (Interjections)
people, depose a headman. (Interjections) Why This is usually the should I write it down? terminology that you find in statutes and we are following what took place even before the Transkei Government came into power , but this time it is different in that the Minister has to consult the paramount chief, which was never done before . He consulted the chief of the area in other words , where or the tribal authority the people complain against the headman they go to a magistrate . The Minister cannot act on the recommendations of the magistrate . He has got to consult the tribal authority , the chief of the area and the paramount chief and how are these consultations made ? By correspondence.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I know my hon. friend , the attorney across the floor , can only try to confuse .
MR. GUZANA :
I am not trying to confuse .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: The language of the statute is clear and it is the language of those who are expert in legal terminology. (Interjections) CHIEF MAJEKE : Chairman....
The tribal authority has got to write a letter to the Magistrate or the chief or the paramount chief. It shows the stupidity of the hon. members of the Opposition to think that a Minister can stoop down so low as to go and initiate the disciplinary measures against a headman. That is common sense , after all. No Chief Minister can go to Ngqeleni and probe about the conduct of headmen and, in any event, those chiefs who are concerned about these matters know what the procedure is. ( Interjections) They know very well that the Chief Minister usually returns a matter to the tribal authority for deposition to dispose of the matter. No Chief Minister has arbitrarily acted against a headman. You are just trying to confuse the issue because the men on the Opposition benches do not like these clauses . You want the chiefs and headmen to be ruled by the people . That is what you want, and if you were in power any day you would make a law to abolish chieftainship. (Interjections) I think I have made sufficient explanation about this matter , Mr. Chairman , and I cannot explain it any further.
On a point of order , Mr.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : no point of order.
Sit down, you have
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order , please .
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, we ought to follow procedure in this House and when a member across the floor has spoken one from this side should speak. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is not a point of order. Anyway, I am trying to explain this section.
The debate was adjourned. The
Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on Clause 6 of the Transkei Authorities Amendment Bill was resumed.
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , here is a bill being enacted by which we are going to depose a headman when he has done nothing wrong .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , at the time of adjournment I
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: telling lies in this House . 263 .
You are
CHIEF MAJEKE : If it is maintained that a headman is not wanted by the people , what is it that he has done? (Interjections) How will
and if the headman is not a member of the TNIP , then the chief can say the headman is unpopular.
you determine the views of the people?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And what if he is a member of the Democratic Party?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Consultation with the paramount chief, chief and the tribal authority .
CHIEF MAJEKE : Yes, it cuts the same. Then the chief will write to the Minister to say that the headman is unpopular , then you will come against the difficulty created by this bill .
CHIEF MAJEKE : How will you find out exactly why the headman is not wanted by the people?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It comes to my department, not to me personally.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I have just told you .
CHIEF MAJEKE : Then you will bring about these difficulties between the headmen and the chiefs , and the people and the headmen. I appeal to you chiefs , if you will turn yourselves into rubber stamps like this it will cause difficulties .
CHIEF MAJEKE : You are making bills which will turn up against you and very soon a bill like this will act against you. We have never heard of an experience of anyone being unpopular and being deposed because of that. (Interjections) I would, Mr. Chairman , the members would listen carefully. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: We have explained this. There is nothing more to say.
Order, please .
MR. GUZANA : House .
CHIEF MAJEKE : The headman we are talking about and playing the fool with today are the people who are working very well with the people under them, and even the chiefs . THE CHIEF MINISTER: the chiefs .
MR. MADIKIZELA : Won't the hon. the Chief Minister give us a few instances contemplated in the phrase "loss of confidence in the headman"?
You are insulting
THE CHIEF MINISTER : instances.
CHIEF MAJEKE : The headman is in charge of his own area. You can count the number of headmen here and also the number of chiefs , and these chiefs only come into contact with the heads of authorities. THE CHIEF MINISTER : also heads of authorities.
We will be heard in this
I have given you
MR. MADIKIZELA : Supposing a headman is a man of adulterous ways , is that sufficient to dismiss him?
The headmen are
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No.
(Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Let me give this example a chief is deposed because of some wrong he has committed and he is deposed because of that. ( Interjections ) When he is reinstated he may find that there are headmen who have since been given authority as headmen in his absence. Such a chief, now that he is reinstated , would like all the headmen in that area to be inaugurated by himself. By this Act now you will bring a dispute between the headmen and the people because anybody can influence the people in any area against their headman, (Interjections) because the headmen are not remunerated sufficiently for their services. There are things which bring about misunderstanding between the headmen and the people , especially in regard There are certain things to money matters . that the headmen get from the people . You speak about that because you know it is true.
MR. MADIKIZELA: Surely a man of serious appointment like headmanship should be made to feel a little more secure . I am thinking of a teacher who loses the confidence of people; or a clerk who loses the confidence of people . What would happen to him? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think I will reply to the only reasonable question from the hon. member for Ngqeleni . He wants instances of this nature. Where a headman left his location and went away to a place unknown and he remained there , he could not be deposed because a charge must be brought against him ; but we are making this law in order that that headman should be deposed when the people of the location , the tribal authority, a paramount chief, have reported his conduct that he has left his location and been away for about a year and the location had no administrator . That is No. 1 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you talking about? CHIEF MAJEKE : Now you want the chiefs to be responsible for deposing a headman without infringing any law. It should never be put into law that if a person is unpopular he can be deposed. In other words , a headman who has above him a chief who is a member of the TNIP ,
MR. GUZANA: In such a situation you appoint an acting headman. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You want to tell us what to do. Come and be Chief Minister if you 264.
want to do that. Now, another case : A headman is guilty of maladministration because in his allocation of lands he gives one land to diverse people . Now the people go and complain to the chief or the paramount chief about his conduct and he refuses to attend the inquiry at the paramount chief's place . Nothing can be done about him unless there is an inquiry into his conduct. Now, I have a case ofthat nature under the Qamata tribal authority where a headman just left the headmanship and took up a teaching post and nothing could be done about it. ( Interjections)
incapable of performing his duties altogether; he is very old and sickly and the location is suffering as a result. The paramount chief calls this man now and again to his place and he cannot attend. Have we got to wait until an inquiry has to be made about that man?
Order , please.
MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman, the honourable child of Matanzima will have his head cracked. What the hon. member for Cofimvaba has said about chiefs is well understood by me. The hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa said a chief is not installed because he is not a dog; nor is a paramount chief installed because he is also not a dog. Today we have a bill before us that a paramount chief and his tribal authority will look into the matter as people who were not installed, but were born into their positions and they will die in their positions as chiefs and paramount chiefs, but this is what brings a problem to a dog. We are throwing What does he want? a White man • into this . There is no Minister among the Bantu people. (Laughter) What does a Minister want among chiefs ? It may possibly be that we have a different Minister next year . You will be wise if you leave the Chief Minister or Minister out and let the people carry on with this as they have always done , because the Chief Minister is installed he is not in his position by right of birth. I will not say any more about this .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
MR. GUZANA: But you know the man has spent the rest of his lifetime serving his people and just because he is old you throw him out. THE CHIEF MINISTER : We give him a pension, for your information.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Nothing could be done unless an inquiry was conducted into his conduct, and he never even attended that inquiry. That is one instance . I want to assure you that the headmen are always protected by the Department of the Chief Minister. No headman in my department is just arbitrarily dismissed without the matter being thoroughly considered. The heads of authorities know that very well.
MR. GUZANA: Isn't an inquiry the best way in terms of the Act? THE CHIEF MINISTER : How canyou inquire about a man who is missing? (Interjections) How can you hold an inquiry when the man is That is a matter which can be not there ? considered by the Department of the Chief They can reply that the headman Minister. The must be charged under this section. section remains - it is not repealed. MR. GUZANA : That is why I want to know when you are going to decide when an inquiry is to be held.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I believe this has been sufficiently canvassed. Will the hon. Mr. Majija move his amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I have told you we must be given powers when the headman is away.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move as recorded : "That section 41 (5) (a) of Act No. 4 of 1965 be amended by substituting for the word consultation with' after the word ' after ' the following words : 'obtaining the recommendation of' . " The reason why I have brought this amendment is because we rush through these things from the top without our first meeting and discussing with the public. There are instances of the people in an area, without their having had previous information, being told that now they will have So-and-So as their headman.
MR. GUZANA: You do not say that.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is not necessary. So you want to use it for MR. GUZANA : any other purpose than that for which it is intended ?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Suppose the paramount chief, chief or the headman who is the head of a tribal authority and the people decide that the conduct of a headman is unbearable?
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are dealing with the deposition of headmen, not with the appointment of headmen.
MR. GUZANA: Let us take the case of the hon. Minister going to a meeting and you don't like the conduct of the headman? Will you not take action against him under this clause ?
MR. GUZANA: There is "appoint a headman" here . You don't even know your bill. MR. MAJIJA: Just give him a shake , please. Things went wrong in the Transkei the day the Bantu authorities were brought into existence . (Interjections ) From that moment understanding in the Transkei came to an end. I remember a time when the Chief Minister was Chairman of the T.T.A. which was the head of the tribal and regional authorities , and the T.T.A. which
THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is not necessary for me .. In fact, I never even pay attention to such matters . I am very big to worry about the conduct of a headman. ( Laughter) What I do is just address a meeting and never go into the behaviour of men. Now, if you are stupid and I cannot convince you , then I cannot help it. Another example is when a headman is 265.
was then the head came to an end and self-rule for the Transkei came into being.
according to what the tribal authority and the chiefs have reported to him. With those few words I move this amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who appointed the Answer the question. headmen before that?
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : I second .
MR. MAJIJA : Put your question in writing. (Laughter) It became evident that now this living head was being placed on the dead body of the Bantu Authorities Act. Perhaps it would have been better ifthis were now named "regional council" or " Bantu council " instead of "authorities" .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I cannot agree to this amendment. The phraseology is synonymous . "Consultation" and "recommendation" are the same thing, so I think there is no necessity for the amendment whatsoever.
The amendment put and lost. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come to your amendment. Clause 6 put and agreed to. MR . MAJIJA: This is like a man whose wife has died going to look for a head to put on that dead body. (Laughter) This is what has placed us into this difficulty. The head is now alive and we still have the body of the dead woman - the Bantu authorities. (Laughter) The Midgley Commission stated that one of the things responsible for the misunderstanding in the Transkei was due to the Bantu authorities being instituted apart from the knowledge or approval of the people . I realise now that the Tembus, by not accepting these Bantu authorities , were quite wise . It was said in the papers : "The Tembus reject Bantu Authorities. "
On Clause 7 Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER: before moving Clause 7 I wish to point out that during a recent inquiry a headman was acquitted on a charge of having been negligent in the discharge of his duties in that he had failed to attend a series of tribal authority meetings. The magistrate conducting the inquiry held that "This court could not find any authority in the Act for the proposition that it is the duty of an ex-officio member to attend meetings of the tribal authority, and for this reason respondent was found not guilty of this charge . " To avoid a recurrence of the above position and to make the matter quite clear , it is proposed to amend section 46 (1) by the addition of a provision making it a ground for misconduct by a chief or headman to fail or neglect to attend three consecutive tribal authority meetings without prior permission. I move the adoption of this section.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman………. MR. MAJIJA: They were aware that there would come a position when the Chief Minister would act in place of their chief.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , we are not going to have members waffling all over the show. The hon. member for Engcobo has an amendment and he has hardly said a word on it. He is collecting all sorts of things . We know he is opposed to Bantu authorities, but he must come to the point at issue - that is, his amendment. We have heard nothing about his amendment so far. He is talking a lot of nonsense.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment : "That paragraph 46 of the principal Act be amended by the insertion at the end of each paragraph 'and/or' except after paragraph (1 ) sought to be inserted under the present bill. "
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, I am not waffling about as I shall not refer to any miniskirts in my addres. (Laughter and interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What do you mean by "and/or"? Expatiate on the difference .
CHIEF MAJEKE : It may happen that a person infringes the regulation under (a) and again under (b). In that case the word "and" comes in very fittingly when he has infringed both (a) and (b).
Order , please.
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, to have consultation with the people does not mean that the people's word will be the last word.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have been wrongly instructed.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : What does "consultation" mean? What do you think it means ?
CHIEF MAJEKE : This is the method followed in law. I do not think there is any reason for me to expatiate more on this. If you are thick and do not understand you will have to remain as you are . We should insert these words "and/or" in all the paragraphs referred to . I move accordingly.
MR. MAJIJA: What we want is that it shall not be the Chief Minister who will consult with the paramount chief and the chiefs. We want the report to go from the tribal authorities , the regional authorities , the paramount chief to the Chief Minister, recommending that such-andsuch a headman for these reasons should be installed, and then the Chief Minister would go
MR. GUZANA: I second.
266 .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : This section was drafted in correct legal terminology and practice by the Transkeian legal adviser. I do not know the legal qualifications of the mover of the amendment but, as a matter of fact, he has failed dismally to tell us where he gets his own legal terminology , therefore , Mr. Chairman, I regret I cannot accept an amendment to this clause from an amateur (Laughter) - a man who knows nothing about legal technicalities. As a legal man I have tried to listen but I do not know what he is driving at.
ment ipso facto falls away. This may be so , but to place the matter beyond all doubt a provision to that effect is considered desirable . I move the adoption of this section. Clause put and agreed to. Clause 9 put and agreed to . The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed
MR. GUZANA : I think the mover has made it quite clear what he means by "and". He has indicated to this House that a man may infringe one, two, three and four of these regulations as laid down in section 46 , but one might contemplate a situation where only one of the clauses is breached. Say, perhaps , he breaches section 46 (1 ) (a). Now, the feeling is that without the "or" after each ofthose sub-paragraphs a person may well find that without the "and" he has only breached one out of the four- or , rather , let me put it this way: He may argue he has to breach all before he is charged . That is why it is suggested that there should be an "or" also.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wish to report to the House that the bill to amend the Transkei Authorities Act , 1965 , has been passed by the House in committee without amendment. What date for the third reading ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the printers are not through yet with the printing of the bill in all the languages , but I will put it down to be read a third time on the 27th May , 1969, or so soon thereafter. If the printing is not ready I will have to request that the bill be deferred till another date. PROPOSED CHANGE IN METHOD OF APPOINTMENT OF CABINET MEMBERS
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Has it not the opposite effect?
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have the greatest pleasure to have to speak on a motion that is intended to bring the Transkei in line with what is happening all over the world . My motion is :
MR. GUZANA : If you say " this or that or that" , it means he need break only one. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , but now you want him to be charged when he has broken all? MR. GUZANA : even one .
"That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to amend sections 12 , 13 and 14 read with sections 9 and 10 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963, and provide that the Leader of the Party that has the majority inthe Legislative Assembly shall constitute a Cabinet by appointing members of his cabinet."
When he has broken all or
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What is the danger in his being charged for only breaking one?
MR. GUZANA : I say that is all right, but as it stands he must break all of them before he is charged.
Mr. Chairman, I want to start from this stand : From the very beginning of the Legislative Assembly in 1963 the system of party politics came into being and in my own opinion I do not think that it was ever envisaged that in the Transkei there would be party politics . We immediately had the TNIP and we had this group of irresponsible political acrobats. (Laughter) I am not going to attack you today, I am going to be very sweet because I am definitely coming up with a motion that is for the good of everybody in this House. Later on, whilst we had these two parties opposing one another we had splinter groups like the Sinba group and later on the Independent group. Nobody, Mr. Chairman and hon. members , would ever guarantee that there is no possibility of other splinter groups .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The position is that one "or" standing alone is safeguarding a man. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I move the adoption of section 7. The amendment put and lost.
Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER: before I move this clause I want to inform the House that there is no provision in the Act for the removal of an acting paramount chief, acting chief or acting headman who refuses or declines to vacate the post in favour of a permanent incumbent. It has been suggested that such a provision is not necessary because when a permanent appointment is made any acting appoint-
OPPOSITION MEMBER :
Communist Party.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: The Communist Party is banned in South Africa. My motion, as I have already said , is to bring the Transkei into line with the world over. The leader of 267.
amending the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, to alter the appellation " Chief Minister" to "Prime Minister of the Transkei" and "Chairman" to "The Speaker" .
the party that has the majority in the Legislative Assembly should constitute his Cabinet by appointing men of his own choice . The leader of that party that has the majority should be the accepted Prime Minister of the Transkei . As the practice is at the moment, Mr. Chairman, it is an anomaly to find that when there has been a general election both parties come into this House to elect the Chief Minister; or , let us assume now there are five opposing parties , those parties must come together to elect the That is an anomaly . Chief Minister. The
In my reading of history I have no knowledge of any man in this position being called " Chief Minister ". They are always called " Prime Minister" . I think all the members of the Assembly will approve of their leader being called by the name they themselves approve of, rather than by a name they do not approve of. There is no work carried out by this official which is in any way unlike that of officials in similar positions in other countries. I hope all the House will support me when I state that this word is used only with reference to younger people. In all other countries the head of the Assembly is not referred to as a "chairman". We note him to be referred to as the Speaker of the House. Likewise , therefore , I appeal to this whole House that we come to an agreement that he must not be referred to as Chairman, but as the Speaker of this House . Without being lengthy on this matter and without going into the ins and outs of this motion, I appeal to the House to give full support to the motion I have placed before it.
present system has opened a number of peculiarities whereby we could have a cabinet that is composed of people coming from the various parties which are of a diversity of opinion. Then you will have a cabinet that has people of different political ideologies and that cabinet can never function well. Just to give an example , Mr. Chairman - let us assume that the Chief Minister of the Transkei, as tall as he is , he is the Cabinet and we know his ideas . Then we have a short man · let us say the hon. Mr. Mnyani - in the Cabinet. One man this side (the Chief Minister) stands for complete territorial " apartheid", complete separate development and we have this short man, Mr. Mnyani , who is for a multi - racial society. Their ideas politically are as different as their statures are, but according to the present system of election of a Prime Minister or Cabinet Minister , the hon. Mr. Mnyani could easily be in the Cabinet, because the whole Legislative Assembly has to vote . With very few remarks , Mr. Chairman, I look at the Cabinet as the heart of a body and there must be good, pure blood in this heart. In the heart of politics , imme-
MR. R.E. MAPASSA : man.
I second, Mr. Chair-
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with reference to the motion put before the House by the last speaker, we have this amendment to move : - That between the words " of" and "amending" in the second line the word "not " be inserted.
diately you bring an ideology that is not commensurate with other men's ideas , that is regarded as impure blood. With those very few but, I presume , very factual remarks , Mr. Chairman, I feel that the time has come that the Transkei should be brought into line with what is happening throughout the world and that the leader of the party that has the majority Thank you. should constitute his Cabinet.
MR. Chairman, it is quite clear that it is not possible that we should refer to the Chief Minister as the Prime Minister. The Transkei has not acquired independence as yet. The Transkei is still under the Republican Government, which government ought to have the Prime Minister . It has never happened that in one State we should have two Prime Ministers . Mr. Chairman, I appeal to you because at present it appears as though we are in a beer drink in this Assembly.
MR. A.N. XELO : I second. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a pleasure for us to note that the Government side is tending to support Democratic Party principles . It is becoming quite clear that what we have constantly maintained is now being understood. Indeed, there is no- one who can oppose his own ideas . Seeing that this side does not oppose the motion I move that the question be put.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please . Hon. members must please pay attention. CHIEF NDAMASE : With reference to changing the appellation " Chairman" to "Speaker" as it refers to you , Mr. Chairman, the Chairman who is referred to as Mr. Speaker is the Chairman of the House of Parliament. This is not yet a House of Parliament. (Interjections ) This Assembly is but a "bunga".
The motion was carried unanimously. ALTERATION OF TITLES : " CHIEF MINISTER" AND " CHAIRMAN"
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , should like to know which motion you are discussing. You have moved an amendment which has not been seconded. I don't know which you are discussing.
MR. J.M. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is a great pleasure to me to rise and move this motion which I think will be approved by all the members of this House . The motion is :-
PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO: second the amendment.
I
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Now I don'tknow which motion you are discussing.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of 268.
that we have grown and we want to walk. It is for that reason, therefore , that we wish our Chief Minister to be referred to as " Prime Minister" and the Chairman as "Speaker of the I will go on to another point. The House".
CHIEF NDAMASE : I am discussing the motion you read to us . I was just saying that this thing in which we are is not a parliament - this is a "bunga" given authority to be able to make bills only on certain particular subjects . We have several "bunga " councils , such as the provincial council, but we do not refer to the Chairman of those councils as "Mr. Speaker" . What sort of "bunga" will this be which will be given the status of a parliament? (Laughter) Let us first acquire the status of a parliament before we call for the rights of parliamentary appellations. Indeed , in your deliberations you have said it will never be possible for us to reach Cape Town but you like to have the appellations such as refer to the hon. Members of Parliament in Cape Town. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
government of South Africa for many years was under the rule of the British Government. I wish an hon. member from the other side would perhaps tell me how the Prime Minister of South Africa was referred to before the time when he was termed " Prime Minister" . In Rhodesia , which is not yet independent, Mr. Smith is referred to as the Prime Minister . ( Interjections ) As a proper Xhosa I am used to people being quiet when a member speaks and being able to speak when their turn comes, instead of us making all this noise at one time .
Order, please.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, this will not be a proper thing at all. I think we are
MR. MAPASSA : However , that is a common practice by people who cannot put their facts clearly before people , to interrupt and interfere with the speaker. I will now sit down and give opportunity to those who have been disturbing me to say something .
jumping into something else instead of beginning by asking for and acquiring independence , after which we shall then call for other things. MR. R.E. MAPASSA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to associate myself with the motion as put before the House by the mover, to the effect that our Chief Minister be now referred to as " Prime Minister " and the Chairman as " Speaker " of the House. The first speaker on the Opposition side has disappointed me . I am afraid to refer to him because he is a descendant of the royal house and whatever I may say he must not think I am referring to him . It appears to me that we liken ourselves to monkeys which are chained up and which jump on to a tree, sit on a plank and put out their hands begging for bread. When one day the monkey is unchained it does not realise it has been let loose but keeps on moving around the tree to which it was chained. I will now remind hon. members that the time has come for us to take into our own hands matters affecting our people . What makes it difficult to speak is the fact that people are mumbling all the time we are speaking.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment to the effect that we should continue to call the Chief Minister and Chairman as we have always called them . As the last speaker has already stated, this House is just like the Bunga. The real parliament meets in Cape Town. (Interjections) This is what I would like to say: In this parliament we have only six departments and the Government of the Republic is fully aware that the people responsible for these departments are not yet acquainted with the requirements for running a government, and that is why they are not willing to give you more departments in your Government. Before you make a request to have the appellation of Prime Minister réferred to you, you should first ask for the departments you do not yet have, (Interjections) such as the Health Department, Labour , Posts and Telegraphs , Defence and so on. An hon. member has referred to the Foreign Affairs Department but that I think is too far advanced and I will not even mention it therefore , because the Foreign Affairs Department in so far as the Transkei is concerned would only affect the area not beyond the bounds of Cape Town. Very unfortunately, the hon. member who introduced this motion is a new member of this Assembly and he is not aware of what we are trying to drive at. Finding himself a member of this Government he thought himself a very important person. (Laughter) During the discussions in this House the hon. the Chief Minister himself stated that he does not want independence yet for the Transkei. How can he therefore be given so important a name when he himself is aware that he is not qualified to be called "Prime Minister"? As you are fully aware , the Government side does not want any help extended to them by the Republican Government. The side of the Chief Minister, which is the Government side , and its component parts who are some of them fools and imbeciles , right up to idiots....
Order , please .
MR. MAPASSA : I will give an illustration which will be understood by all as it comes from our Xhosa tribal life. If you have a son who has grown up to manhood you will not refer to him as a boy . If your son should have a child , that child will say " Father" to him , not anything else because you , as the father , are still alive . For that reason I do not see any reason why my hon. friend thinks we cannot liken ourselves to the Republican Government. How do you regard this , that we are not even going to be like bees which, after they have multiplied in their hive , fly off and start a hive somewhere else on their own. Now is the time to show the Republican Government that without doubt we are a living child. If a child is alive you see that child crawling first and when the time arrives he is able to rise and stand; and if the child does not do any of those things the child is considered an imbecile. It is now time for us to show the Republican Government 269.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder if the hon. member will withdraw that remark? CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : I am sorry, Mr. Chairman. I will put it this way, his followers .... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You have not withdrawn the words. You are just making additions . CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the names and will just say they are stupid. (Laughter) As they have constantly stated, they have nothing to do with our African people in the Republic . They have no respect for our brothers and our children who are buried in the mines in an effort to work for this country. They have no respect for our children and relatives who fell from those high skyscrapers in Cape Town when they were working for this country. Others have been drowned while trying to fish in order to make a living for the children of this country . How can a person who is encouraging this type of thing be given the respect to be called a Prime Minister? If Dr. Verwoerd were alive , as soon as he received a recommendation to this effect he would reply: "Don't be silly, my son" . I am quite certin that the present Prime Minister of South Africa, in getting this recommendation, will reply: " Now, now , don't be in a hurry, young man. " The word that you are referring to will make you a laughingstock throughout the world, that a person who is at the head of a country which is so poor and in such difficulties should be referred to as "Prime Minister". The few mealies we are able to get here are imported from areas such as the Free State . You don't even want industries in the Transkei because you say that is European capital ; and this is said in the Transkei , which is in the throes of famine , where we cannot even mine coal and there is no zinc. Silver , gold and copper are not even mentioned. How can we import such an important name into a country suffering from famine and starvation, such as the Transkei ? What we are doing here, seeing we are a "bunga" , is merely to make requests such as the TTA always did to the Government. (Interjections) The status of a " bunga" is even below that of the Coloured Council which is not yet in being, and if this appellation were to be granted the Coloured people would make a laughing- stock of us . The title " Chief Minister" is a very good and appropriate name to refer to the leader of this Government. We have just been trying to move an amendment that the elected members of this parliament should be equal to the number of chiefs . If you had approved and supported that motion we would have come out of this foolish status. I do not know why you were afraid of
turn him away from the point, whereas in a proper parliament when the Speaker is addressing the House there are no interruptions. Even now, as I am addressing the House , I regard him as a Chairman and not as the Speaker. I wish the hon. members on the Government side would withdraw this motion, as I am aware it was put in by a newcomer who does not understand the matter. (Laughter) I want to appeal to the hon. Ministers and the members of the Government side to take the trouble to improve the lot て of the commoner in the Transkei and thereafter it is the people who will try and improve your lot by giving the correct appellations to you. Allow the people to seek employment anywhere without any hindrances and difficulties in their way. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member keep to the motion under discussion, please. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, in making these references I am trying to make it clear to the House when and where we should apply the appellation of "Speaker" or " Prime Minister" to a Government such as we have. I was just saying the workers on the roads.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order , that is precisely why he says he sees in front of him a Chairman and not a Speaker. It is because he cannot bow down to your ruling. You have ruled that he should stick to the amendment and he is still continuing on the discussion he was putting before this House. I would that he bows down to your ruling that he should stick to the amendment, and that you stick to your ruling. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order , please.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister has wasted part of my time.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I will put another point of order and use up more of your time if you continue like that.
CHIEF NDAMASE : I was just on the point of saying that the present appellations we use are quite in order and proper , because we have not reached a status where we can refer to our parliament as a parliament responsible for handling departments of State which are very important. On that account therefore , Mr. Chairman, I do not see any reason why we should change from calling the Chairman a Chairman. We say he should remain Chairman until the status of this House reaches a suitable status . In those terms I support the amendment, and I am fully aware that when all the people who partook of Jabulani shall leave the premises of this Assembly then the status of this parliament will be raised. (Laughter)
this motion, because even the people who have been elected now are all chiefs . I shall leave this point and go on to the matter of the Chairman. It is suggested that he be referred to as the "Speaker" . We do not know of any Speaker in parliament except in a kitchen dance . The status of this House has not yet reached the status of a true parliament where we would refer to the Chairman as " Speaker of the House " ; where , when the Chairman is addressing the House , a member gets up and attempts to
CHIEF M. TANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am also a chief and I do not like the habit that is practised in this House that I am stopped each time I want to speak. (Laughter) 270.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
(b) None . The community will have to bear the cost of providing wooden floors and ceilings .
Order , please .
CHIEF TANTSI : I am now speaking. Look, we are now old and we have to show the children. This is the truth that has been spoken by the chiefs , the children on my side. (Laughter) We say that the laws should be carried out in the manner in which they have been laid down, which is being objected to by the other side. The Opposition says there should be no Prime Minister but a Chief Minister, but on our side we say there should be no Chief Minister, but a Prime Minister. A man should speak out his opinion about the law and must stick to one law. The Chairman should be called the Speaker. Don't just dream about certain members , dreams which occur when you are asleep . I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
(c) Falls away. I may add that there are several such school buildings and the Department of Roads and Works and my department are having a backlog with regard to the building scheme which they have at the present moment. There are schools with buildings which are just about falling down, and those have got to be seen to.
QUESTION NO. 17. Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :(a) Is it correct that the Department has no intention of pursuing further the phormium tenax project at Lujizweni Administrative Area, Ngqeleni ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the next speaker will not have the complement of 30 minutes and therefore I move that we adjourn.
(b) If so, what are the reasons for giving up the project?
The debate was adjourned.
(c). What are the future plans of the Department in respect of the land presently under phormium tenax?
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 27th May, 1969. TUESDAY, 27th MAY , 1969
REPLY : (a) Yes .
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and, after correction, confirmed .
(b) The Department prefers to concentrate Phormium tenax development at present at Butterworth and at Lusikisiki where large scale development is possible and
NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I beg to give notice that tomorrow , the 28th May , 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the protection of indigenous forests , the establishment and management of plantations and the marketing of forest produce.
(c) Decortication of Phormium leaves is at present duly undertaken by the Xhosa Development Corporation and the leaves from Lujizweni plantation will be supplied to that Corporation on their request.
MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply of the hon. Minister , my question is as to what are the department's future plans in regard to the land , not in regard to the plants .
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 16. Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Education :-
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman , I will reply to that later.
(a) Is the Minister aware that both the pupils and teachers run the risk of ill-health as a result of the floor being cement and the roof being iron and without ceiling in a building constructed by the government at Buntingville Primary School ?
Mr.
QUESTION NO. 18. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Finance :Does the Transkei Government get any share from the profits made by the Xhosa Development Corporation in the various business undertakings they have launched in the Transkei , if not, why not?
(b) If aware , what steps is the Department taking to remedy the situation? (c) If such steps are contemplated, when?
REPLY :
REPLY: (a) I am aware of the fact that this school building has cement floors and no ceilings under an iron roof. The building was, however, not erected departmentally but by the community under the Rand-forRand scheme in 1964/65 prior to the abolition of school boards.
The reply to the first part of the question is No. In reply to the second part, the Honourable Member is referred to the Promotion of Economic Development of Bantu Homelands Act, 1968 (Act No. 46 of 1968) which provides inter alia
271 .
for the continued existence of the Xhosa Development Corporation so as to promote and carry out, under the control of the Trustee of the South African Bantu Trust, the economic development of, inter alia , the Transkei . The South African Bantu Trust is the only shareholder in , but may receive no dividends from, the Xhosa Development Corporation. Section 19 of the said Act, therefore , quite reasonably, provides that all income and property and all profits of the Xhosa Development Corporation, from whatever source the same may be acquired , shall be applied exclusively to the promotion of the objects of that body.
(e) How many primary schools are there in Engcobo?
REPLY : (a) 1 High School , Clarkebury; 2 Secondary Schools , Manzana and Nyanga. (b) 1 day school , Manzana. (c) 1 Training school , Clarkebury. (d) Clarkebury High, Mr. U.C. Mayekiso. Manzana Secondary, Mr. L.S. Matiwane. Nyanga Secondary, Mr. S.B.S. Mahlati. Clarkebury Training, Mr. P. Msengi. (e) 91. I hope the hon. member is not confusing the number of schools I gave you the other day, which was up to Std. 6. I am giving you the numbers of schools in Engcobo, which is 91.
MR. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, I am motivated to ask this question because I note that your whole tribe is dying and being destroyed by Jabulani. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : asking another question?
Are you
QUESTION NO. 21. Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of the Interior :(a) What is the total population of the Transkei ? (b) What is the total area of the Transkei ?
MR. ZIBI : If there were a way out, please, I would advocate that we give up Jabulani because it is killing the tribe .
REPLY :
QUESTION NO. 19. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
(a) The 1961 population census figures for the Transkei are as follows : : 1,386,376 (i) Bantu : (ii) Coloured 11,099 14,092 (iii) White
Would the honourable Minister place before this House a detailed plan for any administrative area which is to be put under soil conservation scheme for the information of its honourable members ?
TOTAL
1,411,567
I may mention that arrangements are being made at present for the taking of a population census throughout the Republic (including the Transkei) during 1970.
REPLY :
No. It is not considered of any particular interest for the Assembly to see any particular plan as each and every member has access to the plan concerning his own administrative area or every administrative area falling under his tribal authority .
(b) The total area ofthe Magisterial Districts in the Transkei is 15,512 square miles.
, MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister , in the number of Europeans given here is this inclusive of the loaned officials and their families and of the European clerks employed in the Transkei?
MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I was referring to a plan not necessarily of an area or location which has already been put under soil conservation.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Those THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: plans do not have to be placed in this House .
Yes.
QUESTION NO. 22. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education:-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Go to the magistrate's office in your area and you will see a plan for your area.
(a) Could the honourable the Minister of Education make a statement on whatever steps , if any, he or his Department took in respect of the last upheaval at Fort Hare as there were many students from the Transkei at the time?
MR . ZIBI: The hon. Minister should have said that. The light is beginning to shine through. QUESTION NO. 20. Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Education:-
(b) How many students from the Transkei were affected and how many were refused re-admission ultimately?
(a ) How many high and secondary schools are there in Engcobo? Give names . (b) of those high and secondary schools in (a) how many are day schools? (c) How many training schools are there in Engcobo? If any, give names. (d) What are the names of the principals in (a) and (c)?
REPLY : (a) The Department took no steps at all as Fort Hare is not under the jurisdiction of this Department .
272.
(b) Unable to state as the Fort Hare authorities did not advise the Department .
1966 but will not be ready for promulgation and tabling during this session.
QUESTION NO. 23. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Minister of Agriculture promised to reply to my question later on. I do not know quite what he meant by that .
If a work foreman leases a hut out in an administrative area while on duty, does the Department pay this rent? If not, why not? Or does this man get an allowance?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Next week. REGISTRATION OF COAT OF ARMS FOR THE TRANSKEI
REPLY : THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , honourable paramount chiefs and honourable members , in moving that this House should accept the principle of a coat of arms for the Transkei and that the design of the proposed coat of arms be referred to a select committee representative of both political parties in this Assembly, the Government is following the same course as was done when the Transkei decided to adopt its own flag. In other words , Mr. Chairman, our approach in this matter is to avoid a political debate and to create such national symbols without strife and turmoil. Mr. Chairman, I do not think hon. members will expect a lengthy motivation from me as to why the Transkei should have its own coat of arms . It must be obvious to all the members that a coat of arms is one of the necessary symbols of a separate administration and government. In this connection, Sir , I also wish to inform members that the Transkei Cabinet already approached the Republican Government in 1967 with the request that approval be granted in principle for the Transkei to design and adopt a coat of arms for itself to be used in connection with all administrative matters entrusted to its care. This approval was duly granted by the Republican Government and thereafter we negotiated with the Board of Heraldry in order to find a suitable design depicting, as it were , the character and sentiments of the Transkei . Hon. members will appreciate that the design of a suitable coat of arms is a very intricate matter where one should be guided to a large extent by experts in heraldry . However , I do not now wish to discuss the particular design which was eventually arrived at because it is a matter that could be best left to the select committee for consideration. Needless to say , if a coat of arms is finally adopted by this Assembly, we will take the necessary steps to have it duly registered , after which we shall start using it in all official documents of the Transkei Government, courts of law, buttons on the police uniforms , etc. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move :-
The question is not clear. However , should it refer to sleeping accommodation the reply is (a) No. (b) Officers who are required to sleep away from their Headquarters are paid allowances . Should it refer to office accommodation the answer is · (a) No. (b) Office accommodation is supplied by the Government.
QUESTION NO. 24. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice: In view of the fact that a request was put in this House that Transkei police families be given free medical services , will the Minister indicate whether this is being done? If not, why not? REPLY : As indicated in the reply to a similar question which was put by the honourable Member on the 2nd May, 1967 , the regulations under which the Transkeian Police serve make no provision for free medical treatment of the families of members. It is for various administrative reasons not possible at this stage to make such provision . QUESTION NO. 25. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education: (a) What are the regulations governing the teachers in accordance with the Education Act No. 9 of 1966 ? (b) Will the Minister table those regulations before the end of this session? If not, why not?
REPLY: (a) No regulations have as yet been promulgated specifically under the Education Act No. 9 of 1966. In terms of Section 33 (3) of the Education Act of 1966 any regulations in force at the time of the promulgation of the Act shall remain in force until new regulations are promulgated. The regulations consequently still in force are those promulgated under Government Notice No. 841 dated 22nd April, 1966 , in terms of the Bantu Education Act.
"That the registration of a Coat of Arms for the Transkei in terms of the Heraldry Act, 1962 (Act No. 18 of 1962) be approved in principle by this Legislative Assembly, and that the proposed Coat of Arms be referred to a select committee of this House consisting of the Chief Minister , Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima , the Minister of the Interior , Mr. C.M.C. Ndamse, and Messrs . M.H. Canca , N.V. Reve , K.M.N. Guzana and J.M. Dumalisile for further consideration and report during the present session of this Legislative Assembly. "
(b) New regulations have been framed in terms of the Education Act No. 9 of 273.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
of the Transkei. (Interjections ) I would appeal to the hon. members to adopt a more responsible attitude than they are adopting, even though they are so insignificant and so meagre in numbers that we cannot even count on them as representing any community.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to reply briefly to the remarks placed before the House by the hon. the Chief Minister , bringing before us this picture of power referring to the Transkei. The purpose is that we should accept this as a coat of arms for the Transkei. I would like to state that we on this side of the House feel that this coat of arms is absolutely unnecessary for the Transkei because we have the Republican coat of arms. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: can be ridiculous.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Many are called but few are chosen. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: As a matter of fact the Opposition benches are filled by members of the Government party. We do not even see them . (Interjections )
And the flag? You
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You can never be taken seriously. You are a big joke.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in his remarks the hon. the Chief Minister says that they and the Republic have consulted on this matter. One would have expected that a matter such as a coat of arms would have been indicated in the Constitution of the Transkei , just as the flag which is provided for in the Constitution.
MR. JAFTA: Even though we may be defeated in the voting, we feel we must put forward our point of view.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: You expect the Constitution of the Transkei to provide for a coat of arms?
You represent no-
The hon. the Chief CHIEF NDAMASE : Minister does not report to us whether the State President has granted us permission to have a coat of arms in the Transkei , because according to the law this should be granted first by the State President, as was done also in regard Further, the nature and to the provinces. purpose of the provincial councils are not similar to those of the Transkei. All the mem-
MR. JAFTA: Further, we in the Transkei are part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa. Even the flag to which you refer was not necessary at all because we are one with the Republic of South Africa.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : body.
MR. JAFTA: There is nothing we can say beyond stating that we are part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa and that all our efforts must be united under one flag. (Interjections) I have not got much to say beyond stating clearly that this is our only opinion as regards this coat of arms.
bers of the provincial council are elected by the people . Here the majority ofmembers come here by reason of their right of birth.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I am just going to make a short reply to what the hon. member has said and to express the surprise and consternation not only of this House but of the whole nation of the Transkei at the attitude of these irresponsible so- called representatives. (Laughter ) A few years ago they accepted a very important matter a flag...
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Including you. CHIEF NDAMASE : Just as I, too, have come in that way .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Resign! CHIEF NDAMASE : Further, if I were not born a chief I would still be a member of the Assembly. Our hon. chief here went further and wanted registration of this coat of arms, but whether authority has been granted or not he does not report to us. A coat of arms is significant of the pride of a people above their own land and country. Even the governing party cannot state that the people of the Transkei are very proud about them as a Government. (Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBER : Never ! THE CHIEF MINISTER: Aflag forthe Transkei. A committee for that flag was appointed and that committee made a unanimous decision and presented the flag to the House. (Interjections) There was never any voting on that flag. Now, to show they are so inconsistent and confused in mind, they say they do not subscribe to this coat of arms for the Republic . We know that, but they are so ignorant that they do not even know that even the provinces of the Republic have their own coats of arms. (Interjections) Yes , Well, if the provinces you don't know that. of the Republic have their own coat of arms as opposed to the coat of arms of the Republic, why are you opposed to one for the Transkei which has its own government? The Transkei is not a province - it is a self-governing state and you cannot get away from that. It shows that you are so ignorant about constitutional issues you just come here and do things to suit your own ends . Nobody sent you to come and object to a coat of arms for the Government
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : why your front bench was wiped out.
That is
CHIEF NDAMASE : The people of the Transkei are still divided according to their tribal I want to know whether the people of units . the Transkei have approved of this leopard . Indeed, the hon. the Chief Minister sent out a circular to the regional authorities asking them to indicate if they approved of the leopard - skin
274.
which is used in the installation of chiefs and people of importance in the country. Can he report to us whether the regional authorities approved of this leopard- skin? Iam particularly referring to the regional authorities , because these authorities are of a tribal nature in the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER : approved of it.
a suggestion to the committee that has been named. As far as the picture of the two animals is concerned, according to our Xhosa custom our strength lies entirely in the skins of a tiger and a lion. We have no custom connected with a leopard. According to our custom men are sent out to the forest to catch a living tiger and bring the skin of that tiger , and that skin is joined to the skin of a lion, both animals which form our pride . Without saying much , when I make this suggestion I do not intend that we should be upset by it but are mainly drawing the attention of those who may not know or understand our custom. Some of us have spent our lives in urban areas and have only returned home when they have been repatriated . Some of us have never been counsellors at the Great Place. That is the reason I am making this request, so that the committee should consider this on those lines and include a tiger and a lion. We desire to make progress and not to remain stationary. I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
The Pondos have
An hon. member says CHIEF NDAMASE : the tribal customs of the Pondo people emanate from Qaukeni . He says that from his own opinion, but we at Nyandeni are evolving our own tribal custom. (Interjections) It may be true that at Qaukeni they are seniors by right of birth but they do not control their own affairs. (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
CHIEF NDAMASE : The motto of the coat of arms proposed here is "Unity is Strength". Unity is strength - can you even have that under a policy of separate development, where you indicate that different peoples must follow different lines of development? (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment to the effect that we require no coat of arms for the Transkei. For the last five years the Transkei has survived quite well without a coat of arms . Let us examine this coat of arms placed before us. This is the first time I have seen this surprising thing , when a beast is put into a kraal ....
Order , please .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Even now they have just made a law dividing the regional authorities . They are pointing to the mace and saying that there it indicates " Unity is strength". You will realise if you look at a person holding this mace how very heavy it is , which is indicated by the manner in which he draws his strength together . (Laughter) A mace should be light enough to be held in one hand, not so heavy a thing as this is. THE CHIEF MINISTER : this House .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is for the committee . What we are discussing is the principle .
MR. MADIKIZELA: ... and when you have put this ox into the kraal you bring two leopards into the same kraal . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , it would appear that we are anticipating the discussions that will take place when the committee meets on this matter. We are canvassing the whole matter at present. Irrespective of (Interjections) certain feelings I beg that we may hold back until the committee has dealt with this .
You are insulting
CHIEF NDAMASE : Now my hon. friend says we shall now have two coats of arms , just as we have two flags . It is not possible to have our own coat of arms, seeing we are still under the Republican Government. First seek your independence and thereafter your coat of arms . THE CHIEF MINISTER: dependence ?
MR. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman, we are concerned with a motion tabled in this House and therefore we are entitled to discuss it.
Do you want in-
GOVERNMENT MEMBER: ciple .
CHIEF NDAMASE : I still maintain that we should not have any coat of arms.
Only the prin-
MR. MADIKIZELA : Seeing two leopards have been brought into the same kraal as an ox, (Interjections ) and the ox appears to have no legs or body....
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you want independence? Answer the question. CHIEF NDAMASE : I was of the opinion that I should put an amendment to this motion, to the effect that the word "not" should be inserted between the words "be " and " approved " in the second line and that all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted. Imove accordingly.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the motion refers this matter to a select committee and the details can be gone into when the select committee reports back to the House. At present we are concerned with the principle only.
MR . R.E. MAPASSA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support this motion in connection with the . coat of arms. Chief, let us come to a common understanding. I wish to make
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member keep his discussion within the principle and not the details of the coat of arms.
275.
an indulgence and I was allowed. You know that with some minds it is their disposition to ridicule and deride what they cannot comprehend - so let it be with the hon. member . The badge of the Clarkebury Institution....
Mr. Chairman, I am MR. MADIKIZELA : doing precisely that. I prefaced my statement with the words that there was no need whatsoever for this coat of arms. I am now removing the inner parts , the ox is already partially removed ... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : order.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : hon. members....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, the matter before the House is a motion and you seem to be taking too long in coming to analyse it.
That is out of
Mr. Chairman and
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: canvassed this sufficiently.
MR. MGUDLWA : A coat of arms should be something that is part and parcel of your bloodstream . The motto on the badge belonging to Healdtown reads . " Alice Velut Aquilerum Surgent" and when I was intending perhaps to do something that the motto did not approve of, when I looked at the badge I used to turn back. I see before me here things similar to vessels used by drunkards to drink their beer.
I think we have
MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, hon. members...
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just a moment, does the House not feel that we should get to the next stage of this motion ? Shall we continue the discussion?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman, I stand up to plead with you , Mr. Chairman. I am now lost. I think the hon. the Chief Minister made it clear that there was a committee . If that is so, if this House were to take my own way of thinking I would suggest this . As a matter of fact, I do not see the significance of this House even putting heed to the minutest minority of people in the Transkei who call themselves representatives when they are not. (Interjections) Some of them, when heckling, actually say they want to sabotage the very formation of this committee . If they don't want this committee we are the people who are in the majority. Only 16 of those members were elected to represent the people.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No , Mr. Chairman, I don't think there is any need for discussion We will have ample time to discuss on this . it when the committee reports back to the House . Mr. Chairman, I think MR. MGUDLWA: we want to unveil certain things in connection with the principle of this before the committee reports . I crave the indulgence of the House.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : All right. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : on a point of order?
MR. MGUDLWA: I thank you , Mr. Chairman, and likewise tomorrow. I see before me here this picture and it reminds me of a badge which I usually have on my pocket. The first badge I had belonged to Clarkebury Institution; the second was Fort Hare . MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : point, man.
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: political jitterbugs accepted ...
MR. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman...
Get to the
I MR. MGUDLWA : I am getting there . won't cross the bridge before I come to it. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Continue with your address.
I am .
These
On a point of order ,
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Sit down. There cannot be two points of order. These people accepted the flag of the Transkei and today they are political jitterbugs and jellyfish. Why do they argue about this?
Order, please .
MR. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member of the Opposition side was speaking and this gentleman got up on a point of order and he has taken up all the other hon. member's time .
MR. MGUDLWA : The third badge belongs to the University of South Africa. (Laughter) I am a student... MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this motion has been referred to a select committee . If the motion is being discussed in this House what is the committee supposed to deal with? This House can only make its comments when the committee has made its report and if they find that such comments are warranted. This motion should be referred to the committee and the House should only make its observations thereafter. MR. MGUDLWA :
Are you speaking
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I now close the debate . The question before the House is a motion by the hon. the Chief Minister, to which an amendment was moved by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . I shall put the question for the deletion of the words proposed to be deleted and the insertion of the word "not" . The amendment was lost by 21 votes to 56 after a division as follows :-
Mr. Chairman, I craved 276.
YESES .
NOES.
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Mditshwa Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enock ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Siphiwa Lenford Baleni Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
TELLERS: 1. 2.
L.L. Mgudlwa S.K. Ndzumo
TOTAL 21
TELLERS : 1. 2. The motion was put and carried .
The
Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
TOTAL 56
Chairman, hon. members , Imove that the Transkei Pensions Amendment Bill be read a third time.
AFTERNOON SESSION THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second. TRANSKEI
PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL THIRD READING
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR:
Agreed to.
Mr.
The bill was read a third time. 277.
TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Authorities Amendment Bill, 1969, be read a third time.
increase in the cost of living, a temporary allowance of R15 per month in respect ofmarried pensioners (or pensioners who are unmarried , widowers or widows with dependant children) and R10 per month in respect of single pensioners , are also at present payable over and above the amounts of the pensions plus bonuses .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I- second.
The bonus and temporary allowance rates must of necessity be adjusted from time to time in keeping with the cost of living index and it is obvious that administrative action is preferable to legislative action particularly in view of the fact that the Legislative Assembly is not in continuous session throughout the year.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING
Section 1 (2 ) of the Bill merely serves to give statutory backing to all payments of bonuses and temporary allowances since the 11th December, 1963.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and Honourable Members , in moving the second reading of the Transkeian Government Service Pensions Amendment Bill, I wish to state that the Bill deals with two distinct aspects , namely -
Coming now to Section 2 of the Bill, Mr. Chairman, I wish to inform the House that a rather remarkable provision in the procalamtion governing the Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund - section 16 of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 - came pertinently to attention when over 1500 female teachers were admitted to the Fund over the past two years .
(a) the provision of the necessary administrative powers to effect adjustments in the bonuses and temporary allowances payable to Civil Pensioners ; and
(b) the provision of a new basis for the payment of gratuities to female members of the Transkeian Government EmploPension and Gratuity Fund, yees ' appointed on or after the 1st May , 1969, who are discharged on account of marriage or who retire voluntarily in contemplation of marriage .
The said section of the proclamation provides for the payment of a gratuity to a female member of the fund who is discharged on account of her marriage or who retires in contemplation of marriage , of twice the amount of her contributions irrespective of the duration of her service. Honourable Members will realise that such a state of affairs can be likened to the proverbial land of milk and honey. I know of no other pension fund or any other financial institution who will provide for a doubling of contributions/ investments overnight and it can only be surmised that the architects of the proclamation in question could never have visualised as far back as 1921 that such a vast number of females would be admitted to membership of the Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund.
As far as the payment of bonuses and temporary allowances to civil pensioners is concerned, I wish to inform Honourable Members that it has been the practice in the past, both before and after the 11th December, 1963 , for the Transkeian authorities to apply the Republican bonus and temporary allowance rates to Transkeian civil pensioners purely on an administrative basis . It is, however, deemed necessary that statutory provision for such administrative action be made by the Transkeian Legislative Assembly and Section 1 (1 ) of the Bill therefore provides that the rates of such bonuses and temporary allowances shall be determined by the Minister of the Interior in consultation with the Minister of Finance .
Realising that a development of this nature could seriously affect the financial stability of the Fund, the Actuaries ofthe Fund were approached for their views in the matter. In their reply, the Actuaries suggested that a five -year pensionable service limitation be imposed in keeping with a similar provision in the legislation governing Republican Government pension funds .
I may mention, for the edification of the House, that the pension of a pensioner who retired prior to the 1st October, 1953 is at present enhanced by a bonus of 30% of the amount of such pension and that the percentage bonus payable to pensioners who retired on or after the said date are calculated on a sliding scale , e.g. 25% bonus payable to those who retired during the period 1st October, 1953 to 30th September , 1958 and 10 % bonus payable to those who retired during the period 1st October , 1965 to 30th September , 1968.
Section 2 (b) of the Bill gives effect to this suggestion and females appointed on or after the 1st May , 1969 will therefore have to remain in the service of the Government for a period of more than five years if they wish to receive enhanced benefits from the Pension Fund.
The Government was of the opinion, however, that the pension rights of females appointed
To compensate pensioners further for the
278.
before the 1st May, 1969 i.e. a date preceding the month in which amending legislation is tabled in the House, should be entrenched.
spoke from this side of the House. It shows we have a white brain in our heads and not something coloured . (Laughter ) Here is something I would like explained. There may be a case of a lady teacher who wants to take up nursing or perhaps become a doctor or something like that.
Section 2 (a) of the Bill therefore provides that a female appointed prior to the first day of May, 1969, will receive double her own contributions to the fund if she is discharged on account of her marriage or retires voluntarily in contemplation of marriage. In the latter instance she will have to produce proof of marriage within a period of three months after such retirement.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: She will resign, you see . MR. MGUDLWA: I would like to see an amendment of that nature so that we will take it to heart that this is the land of milk and honey that the teachers are entering .
Honourable Members , I have elaborated fully on the few provisions of the Bill and it is trusted that the House will be unanimous in its acceptance thereof.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: The hon. member can rest assured that they are all protected. The principle is the same, otherwise some of them will be retiring and therefore they are protected here .
Mr. Chairman, I now move that the Bill be read a second time.
MR. MGUDLWA : studying?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to allay any fears that the hon. Minister might have.... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : you at all.
We don't fear
If she wants to go on
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Then she resigns and she is protected here. We don't have to find out why she is retiring.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , in view of the fact that the House appears to be in favour of the bill I shall put the question. Agreed to .
MR. MADIKIZELA: ....fears that he is probably going to come under fire from this side of the House. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who is capable of putting us under fire on that side? MR. MADIKIZELA: I wish to assure him that the measure meets with favourable comment from this side of the House. It is of considerable interest to notice that as many as 1,500 lady teachers have been recruited in this scheme. I take it it is on account of the hon. the Minister of Education. (Laughter) I am not going to flood the Government benches with eulogies . They seldom know the distinction between praise and blame.
The bill was read a second time . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : the committee stage ?
What date for
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It is proposed that the committee stage should be on Wednesday, May 28, or So soon thereafter. TRANSKEI REGIONAL AUTHORITY COURTS BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that this House converts itself into committee. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , even though the hon. Mr. Madikizela has explained what the attitude of this side is there are , however, a few things which we would like the hon. Minister to explain and perhaps after the explanation we will be able to shake his hand. We hope the explanation will clarify the fact that he really has done a very good job. If I understood him properly it is only a question of marriage - or perhaps the marriage of the teacher is only a small matter. The young men who haven't enough money to pay " lobola" usually hurry to buy a special licence.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, the spirit has been so pleasant this afternoon and this morning... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It was not pleasant this morning. MR. MADIKIZELA : Well , we have made up for it this afternoon. I wonder if the hon. Minister will not consider postponing the committee stage of this bill? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Because your legal adviser is not here?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No, it is production of proof after three months ' marriage.
Why?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , spirit or no spirit , the fact is that I gave them ample time from last week until today. As a matter of fact, this committee stage should have come yesterday. I was sympathetic enough to give them up till today. Once
MR. DUMALISILE : I see, thank you. MR. L.L. MGUḍLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I also support the members who
279.
more, Mr. Chairman, I move that the House sits in committee.
and the same time? section by section....
Why don't you read it
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is what we have done.
Agreed to. House in Committee
CHIEF MAJEKE : ...and put them one by one? I would like you to explain these regional authority courts .
Clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, it appears as if we are playing. We made an appeal and we are waiting for your reply to this appeal. We asked you because we are intending to put in amendments and if the House is not ready we should appeal to the members on the other side. Let us hear from the Chairman whether he approves or disapproves . We have amendments and we would like to put them in.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is it in Clause
4?
CHIEF MAJEKE : This is what I want the hon. Minister to explain: As regards these regional authority courts that are now being instituted it appears there is only one person qualifying to head these regional authority courts. We would like an explanation on this.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Under what rule , please , of the rules governing this House?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the hon. member for Qumbu merely wanted to put across his views , because the regional authority and the region are all defined in the definitions in section 1. There is nothing to explain because we have passed it and you should have asked for it under section 1.
CHIEF MAJEKE : We are asking the indulgence of the Chairman who is empowered by the regulations to use his discretion. This is a law which affects the life of the people and we would like to go carefully through it. I appeal therefore to you , Mr. Chairman. I also appeal to the hon. Minister to consider the request we are putting .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Actually, I wished the amendment to be read with the section to which it referred , so I think that should be done before we can say we have passed it. This is the jurisdiction and procedure of regional authority courts and powers of judicial officers , and then there is this amendment in relation to the principal clause.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman,
no. MR. L.Z. MANINJWA: Mr. Chairman, it is not right that we should be given a bill to deal with and before we can study it we are being rushed through it.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the amendment is to Clause 3 and is as follows :-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : To my mind, Mr. Chairman, we are on clause 3. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , ample time has been given for you and I am not prepared to allow any further time. So we get to Clause 3.
for
'(1) Subject mutatis mutandis to such provisions of sections 10 , 11 , 12 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 18 and 19 of the principal Act as are not repugnant to or inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, a regional authority court may -
On Clause 3 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, before moving the adoption of this clause , there is an amendment appearing against my name . Actually, I was meeting the hon. the shadow Minister of Justice on the other side, so they will understand what the amendment is all about. It was not to confine the jurisdiction to the one person in that authority. I move accordingly.
(a) hear civil cases and matters arising out of Bantu law and custom between Bantu persons; and (b) hear appeals made to such court under section 12 (4) of the principal Act. ' "
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Clause
put
and
agreed to,
Before this amendment, Mr. Chairman , the clause read as follows , just after the word "persons" in (a ) : - " ... resident within the area of jurisdiction; " By this amendment now those words are deleted , once more I will say to meet the hon. members ' request. (b) remains the same , and the proviso remains the same . Once more I move the adoption.
as amended.
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, as we are being rushed through this bill I appeal to the hon. Minister to explain to us about this regional authority court. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : passed clause 3.
"That the following sub- clause be substituted sub-clause (1 ) of clause 3 of the Bill :
We have
Clause 3, as amended , put and agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 6 put and agreed to. Mr. Chairman, are you discussing all these sections of the bill at one CHIEF MAJEKE :
House Resumed
280 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I now report to the House that the bill has been passed with one amendment. What date for the third reading ?
people . It does appear that in future we shall not make any reference to the leader in this , because you will immediately rush to the rules and regulations governing the Assembly. It is necessary that the character of a person who is regarded as a leader must be without blemish . Mr. MacMillan gave up the Prime Ministership of England because a member of his Cabinet got into trouble by taking into his company....
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Tomorrow, the 28th May, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter . ALTERATION OF TITLES : " CHIEF MINISTER " AND " CHAIRMAN"
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, will you please discuss the motion .
The debate was resumed. MR. MNYANI : I am speaking on this motion, Mr. Chairman, because the Prime Minister is a leader and I am discussing leadership at the moment. Further, Mr. Holyoake , the Prime Minister of New Zealand, was questioned because he followed a young girl. (Interjections)
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment moved by the hon. Chief Douglas Ndamase to the effect that we should retain for as long as we can the terminology of "Chief Minister " and "Chairman" of the Assembly. Mr. Chairman, it is an unacceptable thing that was done by the governing party that when they want anything disagreeable they should ask a new member to move it in this House . (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
MR . S. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman, will you please call this hon. member to order. He is out of order altogether. MR. MNYANI : I am discussing leadership . Mr. Chairman , I have said that the standard of our Assembly is not such that we can refer to our leader here as "Prime Minister" . I am dealing with the motion. Recently we had....
Order, please .
MR. MNYANI: The hon. member who moved this motion has been cheated outright because they are afraid to put it in themselves. First the hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa was afraid to introduce this motion, seeing that it is understood that he has brought in this particular attitude on the Government side . I stated at one time in this Assembly that there is a section on the Government side who wanted to attain independence by force - that is UDI. (Laughter) All the motions they have introduced here , especially this particular one , is crawling sideways to the UDI attitude . I am afraid that even the side which supports the hon. the Chief Minister is extending a hand of friendship to this other side . Perhaps he has realised that there are few who might support him in this and he might lose his position as Chief Minister . Even though he is taking these precautions it is made clear that in the end things will turn out as they ought to be. That region which has the majority of the members on that side must take up the reins and be answerable for whatever force is applied, for our descendants will ask them what they have done with the African people of the Transkei . I said that the Government side was afraid of these motions because even previous to this there were several motions which they had put in which were inclined towards independence . The reply to these motions has recently been put before this House and I have studied the reply carefully. It is stipulated that if this Government constantly asks for these particular areas there will be misunderstanding between them and the Republican Government. (Laughter) That is one reason why they have given this motion to a new member of the party, because if it were not so the steps of the Special Branch would follow closely on this member. (Laughter) The hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa says he has not said anything, seeing that he has not said anything about what he knows. My hon. friend, we have not reached a stage when our leader may be referred to as the " Prime Minister" for as a rule we lower the prestige of our Bantu
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The motion refers to the terms " Prime Minister" and "Speaker" . Now I do not understand the discussion on a Minister . MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, it is not proper to refer to the Chief Minister of this House as "Prime Minister" , whether he is on the Government or the Opposition side . Although I am being rushed over this matter it is quite clear that we have no leader , especially now that this hon. member is being pushed to put in this motion. He is being forced to do this by the people who were the leaders of the defiance campaign in East London. (Interjections ) They should not bring in this thing, whereas they themselves left the people here in difficulties and they went up to share a meal with a European. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, it is quite clear that we have not reached a stage where we can refer to our Chief Minister as "Prime Minister " , and I think the terminology used now is quite proper because he is referred to as " Chief Minister " , and if we interpret that according to modern language we would say he is the "boss -boy" of the Ministers. (Laughter) I have already said that the hon. member for Kentani , Mr. Mapassa, speaking on this motion said that Mr. Smith of Rhodesia called himself the Prime Minister although he had taken his powers by force . It is quite clear that one day the Government side will declare UDI in the Transkei . I am quite afraid because as a result of starvation in just one year , they have been forced to go and beg and they brought back roofing iron and wire fencing. (Laughter) But they brought no food back with them. They held meetings in the municipal locations when they could not bring any relief for the Transkei and they were insulted. Mr. Chairman, I want to refer now to the Chairman - not necessarily referring this to you, but speaking generally because in this 281 .
House when a Chairman tries to put us in order he is not able to choose between two sides . We know of Mr. Speaker in Cape Town as someone who takes no sides in politics . He is impartial and does not just cut off a member from one side . This year the standard has definitely lowered, where a member given an opportunity to speak is stopped before the 30 minutes is up , whereas the Speaker should give a member full time to say what he wants to say, without choosing between two sides. He should not be thinking of what was said inthe caucus . In fact, a Speaker should not attend any caucus meetings. (Interjections) I maintain we must continue calling him " Chairman " , just as we would call someone "chairman" of any beer-drink. (Laughter) I would we should keep the terminology we use at present. Lastly, I would like to say that a member who maintains he has been in certain organisations should keep the dirt of those organisations to himself and not throw it on to anyone else. Kwentshe and Lengisi who belonged to that organisation were banned but he was not banned because he kept on becoming a witness . He makes himself a goat in a slaghterhouse , leading the sheep to slaughter .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
CHIEF JOZANA : I must tell you I will not be a chairman again, but I will be the Speaker of the House ( Laughter) I mean to say that when we are handling such a delicate affair it is not necessary that we should be of conflicting opinions , because at present we are onthe forward march. If a baby cannot develop and walk , what can you do about it except have it confined to a clinic? You should respect us and we will put matters right for you. What you referred to will be achieved by us. This is the beginning now, that we want the Chief Minister to be known as "Prime Minister" . As far as this motion is concerned I say that we should come together. My hon. friend need not make these remarks because we were together in Pretoria. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : member address the Chair.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order , please .
CHIEF JOZANA : Mr. Chairman, I don't think I should waste your time because we want this motion carried out. We will not say anything about these babies who know nothing. We requested the Republican Government to grant us the government we now have and that was accepted. We will again appeal to the Republican Government and even on this occasion they will grant us our request. (Interjections ) You see , you newcommers are getting spoilt and we will have to cut off your tails.
Hon. member , MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to oppose this motion by the hon. member - namely that the Chief Minister should be known as the "Prime Minister" and that the Chairman should be known as the "Speaker of the House". I notice these people have been very greedy because they have seen some people who have been given independence by the British and these people have Prime Ministers . They have not been freed in a tricky manner as the Boers have done . Look at Swaziland - Dlamini is the Prime Minister of Swaziland and he has been given complete freedom by the British. He is absolutely independent. In Lesotho Chief Leboea Jonathan is the Prime Minister and he is independent . He is not the Chief Minister . Even in Bechuanaland , where our Chief Minister visited and when he came back he became so greedy, Sir Seretse Khama is Prime Minister and he is not Chief Minister. (Interjections )
CHIEF JOZANA : I thought I was dealing with the motion in question, but I was explaining this to the people who do not know. The hon. Mr. Maninjwa was asked to move a certain motion. Our aim was independence . When we now ask for the alteration of the appellation "Chief Minister" to "Prime Minister" and " Chairman" to " Speaker of the House " it is because we are moving towards our original intention -namely, independence. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : dependence .
Will the hon.
CHIEF JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, now this is the time to reveal those secrets that were not known, because then when we walked we sang the same tune. It was for that reason that I said when I stood up that I was making a special appeal to the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , because we were together in Pretoria . We could not have been sent by you at that time because You live at a railway you were not born. station. (Interjections)
CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it was not my intention to speak on this motion, but the reason I speak is because of the hon. Chief Douglas Ndamase . I will not allude to the rubbish that has been said in the House this afternoon. I want to point out that even the new members of the House are just like the hon. Mr. B.S. Mnyani. When a newcomer was silly we used to use the bush knife and cut off his tail. (Laughter) Similarly with this newcomer here, who has just wasted the time of the House . I am one of the founders of this Assembly and when it was being constituted at the beginning, things similar to what I have heard today were said, and when a motion was introduced to constitute this Assembly we were told that we were just speaking like babies , and though we were of royal blood we met with the commoners in this House. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: discuss the motion, please .
Order, please.
You will never get in-
CHIEF JOZANA : Even now the hon. Chief Ndamase supports me when I say we are aiming at independence. (Interjections ) We were told we would not be granted this Legislative Assembly and now you say we will not get independence . Even now we are bringing about this alteration in the appellations because we represent the Government and no ordinary commoner can stand in our way. (Interjections)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: MR. KUTU:
282 .
Order, please.
If the Chief Minister of the
Transkei wanted to be raised up to that standard he should first have made arrangements so that those chiefs are not in this House , but should occupy an upper house, and then this would be a real parliament and not just a dummy. Mr. Chairman, the appellation " Prime Minister " is not yet suitable in our case because the Chief Minister is now riding a dead horse which he has been given by the people who have control over him , because anything we suggest to him he will listen to his Secretaries who will tell him what to say. We members of the House on this side cannot agree that he should be made a Prime Minister. We are not such foolish idiots. When he is in fact tying us hand and foot he tells us he is freeing us , and then we become so foolish as not to understand that we are being tied instead of being freed. What we notice about him is that he is tying down all the people in the Transkei. What these people should have done first of all was to fight for the rights of the people who have been driven out of the labour centres . Before he comes to this House and requests to be known as the Prime Minister even the people outside the borders of the Transkei should be able to say he is now ripe to be called "Prime Minister" . When we dealt with the motion of no confidence I mentioned the names of certain people who were arrested on the Reef and repatriated home and because he is such a cruel ruler who prevented this from being printed in the Press, for fear that if it was published the people at large would get to know about him....
are aware that in his five years as Chief Minister he has done much and it is proper that he should be called by a different name. According to our custom , when we want to test whether a pumpkin is ripe we put a nail into it and we realise fully that the hon. the Chief Minister is ready to be called Prime Minister. I appreciate what the hon. member says , that he should not grow. To refer to the term " Chairman" I agree that it should now be changed to "Speaker " . We are quite satisfied that we ought to abandon the term "Chairman" and refer to him as the Speaker of the House . The achievements and ability of that Chairman have indicated to us now that we ought to claim the Speaker. I can understand those members who say he is not partisan. We note that too, and are quite happy under his direction. Whatever the Speaker does we appreciate it. MR. K.M. GUZANA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I am not aware that in discussing this motion the personality of the Chairman or the Chief Minister should be drawn into the discussion. This will open vast vistas of criticism levelled against the Chairman as an individual , and the Chief Minister as an individual. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : of order....
On a point
You cannot have a point MR. GUZANA: of order to a point of order. Point of order to whom , now?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Just a minute , hon. member. I want to draw your attention to the motion, which reads as follows :- (Read motion) Now that is the motion you should discuss. I do not understand the other things you are talking about.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I am thankful the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has said this . This is actually what we opposed when the hon. member was speaking on the other side . OPPOSITION MEMBER: You are out of order. Sit down.
MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, I am dealing precisely with that matter.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I would like respectfully to thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the remarks he has just made , because I realise he has put his side properly under the reins . It is not the Chief Minister who says he should be called "Prime Minister" . It is we who maintain he should be called that because of his achievements .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: You see, this does not refer to the present Chief Minister or Chairman. It just deals with the principle. It does not refer to any particular holders of the position, so you must not discuss persons. MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, this motion deals with the Chief Minister who should now be known as "Prime Minister". In the whole of this Transkei we have only one such Chief Minister . I say I object to the motion and I am giving my reasons for my objections . Let me pass on to the Chairman. It is suggested that he should be called the " Speaker of the House" . We also object to that. I will not refer to something said by one on the other hon. members on this side, but the appellation should remain until this House has been constituted as a parliament. We should see to the extension of this building so that the chiefs should occupy an upper house. It should not be this watermelon mixed up with some beans. (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The motion does not refer to any particular individual , so you cannot speak of the services rendered by the present Chief Minister or Chairman.
MR. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman, this Government has progressed and taken such steps forward that we ought to use the appellation " Prime Minister" now with reference to people who hold that particular position. It is the people who are driving the wagon who may, we feel , have succeeded in getting it to its destination . We would like the House to be unanimous that we use the appellations " Prime Minister" and "Speaker" in place of " Chief Minister" and "Chairman".
MR. M. MASIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the hon. the mover of the motion, to the effect that the Chief Minister be now called "Prime Minister" . We
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon.
283.
members , if we are going to limit ourselves to the circumscribed ambit of this motion we shall merely deal with it from the constitutional aspect. It is known by this House that this is a partially self-governing state. We are not even a self-governing state , let alone an independent state . The Government of the Transkei has only six departments , as against many more departments which are stiH under the control of the Republican Government, and it is surprising to think that at that stage of constitutional development this Assembly could seek to call the Chief Minister a Prime Minister or to call the Chairman a Speaker. Even in its legislative functions this Government still has to submit its bills to the State President for approval• and that approval is not automatic, because the State President has the right and the power to veto legislation and send it back as it is, or with recommendations . Now, that is again indicative of the limited legislative functions of this Assembly, and these limitations restrict this Government in so far as it may seek to use nomenclature that is used in respect of governments which are fully autonomous; and my remarks on the appellation " Chief Minister" and " Prime Minister" are also opposite to the appellations " Chairman" and " Speaker" . Then again, it surprises me that the governing party should contemplate a change in these names when they have accepted a Constitution which is primarily tribal , as against being democratic. You see, the Government has committed itself to the policy of separate development which lays down that the African will develop along his own lines , and in spelling out this phrase "along their own lines" the Government has indicated that we must go tribal; we must go traditional ; we must go back; hence its preoccupation with tribal authorities , regional authorities , etc. Now, how can the same Government seek to run awayfrom the term "Chief" , which is tribal in essence ? (Laughter) Why seek to have the Chief Minister called a Prime Minister - a name which is foreign to the traditions and customs of the African? It seems to me that the Government is not thinking correctly on this issue , or are they betraying a conviction that nobody can go tribal and nobody can go traditional ; nobody is willing to move backwards and that we are moving forwards towards democracy , towards Western civilization ? And what is the relationship between the Prime Minister and a paramount chief, or a chief, or a sub- chief for that matter , or a deputy chief? Otherwise the Government must concede that it has realised that it is nothing like developing along the Africans ' own traditional lines and that we must develop as democracy dictates in the present-day world. Who determines the bills that are introduced into this House, Is it not a fact that before these bills are introduced into this House there must be an approval from the Department of Bantu Administration and Development? When we had the Traffic Act before this House , the Minister in charge of it constantly said : We cannot finalize this matter until the Republican Government has enacted this legislation, otherwise we will have to amend it. The Taxation Bill which is due to come before this House has been held back because the Republican Government has first to legislate so that we echoe what they
have legislated upon. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : necessarily. It is for different reasons .
Not
MR. GUZANA: The other reason is that this Government seeks uniformity of the provisions in this bill with the provisions of the bill which goes through the Republican Parliament. Now, how can you call the head of such a Government a Prime Minister? In my view I think this is a betrayal of egotism and self-assertiveness. It would be so nice for us to have a Prime Minister. Call him a Prime Minister - he still remains a Chief Minister for Africans who are moving backwards. And if you call the Chief Minister a "Prime Minister" of the Transkei , what are you going to call the Prime Minister of the Republic? You see, the Transkei is still constitutionally part of the Republic and you can only have one Prime Minister of a single state like that. We must not mislead ourselves as to what the Transkei is at the present moment, because, as the preamble shows, it envisages the gradual development of selfgoverning Bantu national units (not states ) inthe traditional Bantu homelands . How can we have the Speaker of a House , the Prime Minister of a House which is controlling a national unit? (Laughter) And never at any time was it contemplated by the Republican Government that this little baby would grow into a state , as the Republican Government's intentions are enshrined in the preamble. In my view, to delude ourselves into thinking this Transkei will ever become a state and qualify in its governing body for the appellations " Prime Minister" and "Speaker" is to be deceiving ourselves , and whatever amendments we may seek to have in this Constitution there will be no change in the main concept of establishing national units and not states . Here is my last point on this matter : Not so long ago this House rejected a motion to give increased elected representation. What was sought in that motion was to realise a more democratic representation in this House than at the present moment. The Government side rejected that motion and yet it had in its own mind the conception that the Chief Minister should be called "Prime Minister " , the Chairman should be called a "Speaker" . I get the impression that the governing side is thinking backwards and forwards and therefore when we say that the Constitution is creating a " pondokkie" for the African you cannot complain against that name , for a person living in confinement can only move backwards and forwards without making any progress whatsoever. The thinking you have displayed by rejecting the motion to increase representation and then bringing this motion is indicative of a mind that is moving backwards and forwards in its thinking. Now a bit of advice to the governing side. Why don't you ask for independence , then you might probably call your Chief Minister and your Chairman " Prime Minister" and Speaker"? MR. Z.M. MABANDLA: that?
MR. GUZANA :
284.
Would you support
We would never support you
MR. J.M. DINIZULU: Mr. Chairman, I feel that we should close and consider this tomorrow.
on that thought because it will again be a mental aberration of your part, but if you were thinking methodically that is what you should aim for. Of course , you can never get there because you have already stated you have no policy at all , (Interjections) because , as you have said, your policy is a springboard. (Laughter) Now a springboard stands over a lake or a swimmingpool and you must be propelled through air or space in order to land in the water. In other words, your metaphor indicates there is no policy to get you from the springboard to the surface of the lake, which is independence , and therefore I advise the governing side first of all to look for a policy . Ask for independence and create a Prime Minister and a Speaker after that. But, of course , you know that your Constitution will never give you that . (Interjections ) Now you are quarrelling with your own Constitution, you are seeking to amend your own Constitution which you accepted , and yet not so long ago you were referring to this Constitution as a sacrosanct document. You regard it as the Holy of Holies and that it cannot be touched . Now I ask you: Why do you want to amend it?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Actually , Mr. Chairman , the hon. member should know he has no right to apply for an adjournment. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : He is the mover. He can . Now, THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: listen, he can move the adjournment of the debate but not of the House. CHIEF NDAMASE :
That is what he said.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that there will be no time to go on with further business and in view of the application by the mover of the motion to have the discussion adjourned I move the adjournment of the House . MR. GUZANA : I second .
Agreed to. MR. MABANDLA: We are growing. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday , 28th May , 1969.
MR. GUZANA : Yes, we are growing but I see the lady who is employed by Mrs. Mostert is old, but she has not grown in stature . You cannot grow unless you have the nourishment and every time we seek to give you nourishment you refuse it. We want industries and you say: No, no, no . We want White capital investment and you say: Oh, no. We want our people to go to the Transvaal and Cape Town, to Kimberley and Durban and you say : Oh, no ; oh, no. All that satisfies you is a gift by way of a ton of iron from one industrialist and a length of barbed wire from another. (Laughter) That is all , and you want the head of that Government to be called "Prime Minister " , and the man who sits over the Assembly to be called a " Speaker" ! PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : being personal?
WEDNESDAY, 28th MAY , 1969
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I wish to announce that the Business Committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 3.45 this afternoon. I also wish to announce that Chief Zwelibanzi Ndarala is indisposed and as soon as he has recovered he will join us .
Who is
MR. GUZANA : I am not being personal . How is he going to exercise ' the functions of a Speaker in an Assembly overloaded with nominated members? How is he going to become Prime Minister when most of his members are nominated? Let him be Chief Minister because he has a majority of chiefs in this House .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to draw your attention to the rules of procedure , page 63. There is one item which was ommitted when this book was printed. It will be at the bottom of that page , following item 4. Printed stickers will be distributed in due course by the messengers to be pasted in the books .
(Laughter) Once we have a majority of elected members we might consider such a thought, but we still have this constitutional barrier which makes this Government wholly subservient to the Republican Government. Will the Government side please think again on this issue ? We make a laughing- stock of ourselves by this sort of thing, like a year-old baby crying for steak when it has not got the teeth to eat steak, anu unless you have strong teeth with which to chew even your mothers will not give you " inqwabu" . Mr. Chairman, I have spoken to the amendment and I think the Government will come to its senses after this. (Laughter)
Secondly, I wish to draw the attention of members to the late arrival of some of the members. The prayer is intended not for a few, but for all the members of the Assembly . I hope members will take particular not of this . TRANSKEI FOREST BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Forest Bill. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , (Act No. 48 of 1963) I now table a
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the mover wish to reply?
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here to attend a session of the Assembly. We have not come to Umtata to attend a kitchen dance. Our hon. Chief Minister should be designated " Prime Minister " and the Chairman the "Speaker " . He went on to say that the Transkei is suffering from famine and that the leader of the Government in the Transkei does not deserve to be designated " Prime Minister" on that account. Another hon. member on the Opposition side said that the Prime Ministers who are leaders in Lesotho, Botswana and other places are rightly designated as such, yet only recently they complained against the importation of maize from South Africa to those states , which shows that these states themselves suffer from famine in the same way as does the Transkei. I will return once more to what the hon. member from Libode , Chief Ndamase , said. He is one of those who went to Pretoria to seek self- rule for the Transkei. Now, after he has been disillusioned because he failed to get the seat of Chief Minister , he turns against his own decision. I have terminology which I could use in regard to a person who turns against his own decision, but because I belong to the Government side which is civilized , I will not resort to that. Again, they say the Republic will not support this motion. If that does happen it will be due to them , because the Republic will then understand that there are still people who come here thinking it is a dance. I will not bother to say anything in regard to the speech by the hon. member for Umtata , Mr. Mnyani , because his speech indicated that he has nothing to say. Let it be clear to the Opposition members that these designations which are sought are not going to be used only by the present Minister , but for any Prime Minister who deserves to be designated as such, just as they spend sleepless nights in trying to put their policy. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition tried to make a point that here in the Transkei we want independence , because he said before we could launch the request contained in the motion we should first seek independence . We know he is not interested in independence . We know that what he wants for the Transkei is provincial status . Again , it is quite obvious that his objections to the motion now before the House are based on the failure of these motions which sought an increase inthe number ofelected members in this Assembly. In my view the Opposition is not opposed to this motion because only on Monday there was a motion before the House to the effect that the leader of the majority party should form his own Cabinet. We were unanimous on that motion. That alone shows that we are a parliament in the Transkei and as soon as they admit that then the Chief Minister of the Transkei should have the same powers as other Prime Ministers elsewhere . Why should a man not enjoy the right to be designated Prime Minister ? Another hon. member told the Assembly that this is only a "bunga" . I wonder whether or not he is able to tell us whether there was an Opposition in the days of the old Bunga, before the general elections? I think we are unanimous in this respect and I do not wish you to oppose this merely to suit your own ends. I wonder whether the Opposition are aware that the word " iNkuluMbuso" means " Prime Minister" ? Why should
message in terms of rule 128 (b) of the rules of procedure that the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly. I now move that the bill be read a first time . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, the second reading will be tomorrow, 29th May, or so soon thereafter. TRANSKEI
REGIONAL AUTHORITY COURTS BILL : THIRD READING
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the Transkei Regional Authority Courts Bill , 1969 , be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second .
Agreed to . The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House resolves itself into committee . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE :
I second .
Agreed to . House in committee Clauses 1 to 3 of the bill put and agreed to. Long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the bill to provide financial assistance to civil pensioners and to amend Proclamation No 143 of 1941 has been passed in this House by the committee without amendment. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will be given tomorrow, 29th May, or So soon thereafter. ALTERATION OF TITLES : " CHIEF MINISTER" AND "CHAIRMAN" MR. J.M. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will endeavour to make a few remarks in reply to the debate on the motion before the House . In the first place I want to say I am greatly surprised at the speech of the hon. Chief T.N. Ndamase of Libode , which speech acually lowered his own dignity. In that speech he told this Assembly that he is here in Umtata to attend a kitchen dance , whereas we have come
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they object to the English version of the word? I wonder whether the Opposition is aware that before Union this country was divided into separate states? Even in those days the head of the state was never designated " Chief Minister " , but "Prime Minister". I refer to such people as Cecil John Rhodes and others who held these positions . With those few remarks , I move that the motion be adopted by the House.
requesting to use an existing dam in the Xolobe River. If I am not mistaken that dam was constructed in 1933 or 1934 by a farmer by the name of Mr. Acton, who lived in the Transkei when there was a drought at the time and the Kei River dried up . The Xolobe River had water running into the Kei River and that gentleman made a request to the two headmen who were in the area on either side of the Xolobe River, Headman Ngcongolo and Heaman Mnyila , and they consented to his request . What they did not know, however , was whether he had been granted this authority by the Tsomo council. However , he constrcted this dam across the Xolobe River and he made a tunnel under the Kei from Xolobe River. He constructed this dam in order to be able to irrigate his farm stretching up to the Kei River. Within two years of having done this the Transkei Bunga laid a charge against him . The magistrate of Cofimvaba , Mr. McLoughlin, brought this to the Bunga and unanimously the Bunga decided that no water from the Transkei should be led to irrigate land in the Ciskei . But the person who had undertaken this work did not take note of the decision of the Bunga and maintained he had spent a great deal of money (namely, R1,000) on the construction of the dam . He sent a petition to the Union Parliament claiming that he was not guilty on that account and claiming the use of the water in the dam , but he failed in his petition and left the dam alone . To this day the dam still stands as it was . We have arable lands in that area beside the Xolobe River which are in the vicinity of a hundred morgen in extent. I think it is proper , therefore , that the people who plough the lands should be able to use the water from this dam . You will note that there is a privilege practised by the Bushmen, that the meat cannot be left to rot. One day, perhaps , you will aslo reside in the Xolobe area and you will be keen to have this privilege . It is for that reason that we have brought this motion before the House . You will note further that this Kei region is plagued much by drought. If rains fall as early as January then the people have a good harvest, and if rain continues they usually have a very good return from their lands . (Interjections ) My personal land is very far from the area to which I am referring. It is nine miles from my home and my garden is right in front of my house (Laughter) My appeal , therefore , is that we be permitted to use the water from this dam for irrigation purposes and that an irrigation furrow be built leading to the arable lands. I would also like to refer to what will be an advantage to the side which is under my chieftainship . This water furrow has great potential as regards the lands in that area . I hope you have quite understood me in this connection and I have every hope that you are very sympathetic with this idea because if a traveller passes by road , you shout to him that there is something for him to eat in that area . I shall now pass on to the second point contained in this motion, appealing to the Government to use the Tsomo River water which is running to the sea without it being harnessed for use by the people of Tsomo. The Tsomo is a long river arising from the Nkonkobe Mountains and running through the Xalanga , Cofimvaba and Tsomo areas. You will remember that last
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall put the question that the words sought to be deleted should be deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment. The amendment was lost.
The original motion put and carried. CHIEFTAINESS A.N. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, honourable kings of the Transkei , hon. members , in view of the statements given by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry on the 14th and 23rd May, I wish to withdraw my motion. THE CHAIRMAN :
Does the House agree ?
Agreed to. MR .
B.S.
MNYANI :
THE CHAIRMAN : on Motion 28?
No , Mr. Chairman.
Are you going to speak
MR. MNYANI: Yes. THE CHAIRMAN :
It has been withdrawn.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: agreed. THE CHAIRMAN: agreed .
The House has not
Sit down. The House has
CONSTRUCTION OF DAM IN TSOMO AREA MR . C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move as is recorded on the order paper :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of reconstructing the dam once started by a farmer in the Xolobe River in order to assist the surrounding areas in the irrigation of their garden lots and further make ways and means of harnessing the water of the Tsomo River to irrigate all the Bantu garden lots lying flat alongside the eastern bank of the Tsomo location to Mfula location. " Mr. Chairman, I think we will be unanimous on this motion because it refers.... THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , may I ask for a seconder to this motion? CHIEF H. ZULU: I second. MR. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman, this motion has two important points . First of all it is
year a question was raised in this House asking 287 .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the following amendment to motion No. 21 : -
the Government whether they had taken a survey of the Tsomo area to find out whether that water could not be harnessed to irrigate the land in that particular area. If that was taken note of, they would like to know if there is any area in that particular place which is benefitting from the irrigation. The reply came, saying that the lower portions of Nququ, Mtshanyane , Ncora Flats and Qumanco in the Cofimvaba region had benefitted . This is the request we are placing before you today: We say we have arable lands in the Tsomo area.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: they don't want any water.
That all the words after "that" be deleted and the following substituted :- " This Assembly approves the stated policy of the Government to investigate minor irrigation schemes wherever such possibilities exist and which inter alia , embraces the harnessing of the Tsomo River for irrigation purposes. "
MR. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman, now that the hon. Minister has enlightened me I would like to say if I am hungry I shall not stop to ask for what I require . I shall not close my mouth when I am hungry and he is going to give me something to eat, and seeing that he has made everything clear to me I therefore withdraw my motion and I second the motion he has put up.
They have told me
MR. MNYILA: They drink that water daily and no person can say he does not want water. THE CHIEF MINISTER : they don't want irrigation .
They have told me
THE CHAIRMAN : Does the seconder agree? MR. MNYILA: No- one can live without drinking, hon. chief. Who does not like to irrigate his plot of land will not do so , but those who wish to can harness the water. Nobody will be compelled to lead water on to his land if he does not want to. There are plots of arable land on the Tsomo River where people could use irrigation to great advantage , such as Tsojana location , Zulu's ward , Nconcolora, Tshwili's ward, Gcibala , Mkehle's ward , Mfula , Ndema's ward and right down to Qwiliqwili area. There are many arable plots there within the region of 400 morgen which would benefit by the use of this water for irrigation purposes . (Interjections )
CHIEF H. ZULU : I agree . Agreed to. Motion 21 on the order paper was withdrawn. MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the fact that this matter is being handled by our Government and the Republican Government, I beg to withdraw Motion No 25.
Agreed. Motion 25 withdrawn. REPEAL OF PROCLAMATION R.400
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to move : - " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to repeal Proclamation R.400 . "
MR. MNYILA: You will find arable plots there which are very productive , especially during the rainy season, and all these regions I have referred to have accepted rehabilitation. There may be only one area which is not rehabilitated, and the people are constantly shouting because the Government had promised to do something for them if they accepted rehabilitation. (Interjections ) If you refer to the Xolobe area they have said they do not want rehabilitation. I am not many people , I am an individual but it is often said the people must ask for this rehabilitation scheme. You merely take a portion of the Xolobe area instead of looking at the whole region. I have four arable plots in that area and they have all be contoured . I have a family and I will not neglect my family. The first plot belongs to me personally.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wish to object in limine to the introduction of this motion in that it is out of order. I will refer the House to rule 37 of the rules of procedure : "It shall be out of order to attempt to reconsider a specified question on which the Assembly has taken a decision during any previous session, except on a substantive motion to rescind that decision, made with the permission of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman. " The same motion was discussed in 1966, see your Blue Books on page 330 and 445 OPPOSITION MEMBER: then.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Who is interested in your lands?
We were not here
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I don't care where you were , if the hon. members wanted to have this motion reintroduced they have a remedy. They should first of all have moved a substantive motion for the rescission of that decision. I move , Mr. Chairman , that it be ruled out of order.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , come back to the motion. MR. MNYILA: Allow me to explain this thing to you . With due respect , hon. members , I do not think there is anybody who will refuse to give food to a person who is hungry. It is said: Knock and it will be opened unto you. I would like to leave this House with a feeling that I am grateful to you all.
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House , this point was gone into in our business meeting and I was there as Chairman. We came 288.
REPEAL OF PROCLAMATION R.400
to the conclusion that as this is a new session therefore the motion could be dealt with as a fresh motion.
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR . N. JAFTA: members, I move this motion as it appears on the order paper :-
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am sorry to interrupt you . Even if the Business Committee came to that decision it does not mean they were correct in their interpretation of the law. You see, it does not say " during the current Assembly" , it says "which has been decided by the Assembly at any previous session" . We have got to define the word " Assembly" in order to arrive at a decision as to what is meant. (Interjections) It was not a ruling · it is the opinion of the committee and the opinion of the committee cannot be a legal interpretation of the law. If you turn to page 69, the definition of the word "Assembly" or " Legislative Assembly" is: "the Legislative Assembly established in terms ofthis Act". It does not refer to the life of an Assembly, to the current session. In other words, if you look at ( 2) of the same section, that is specific that no motion or amendment shall be proposed which is the same in substance as any motion which has been resolved during the current session. Now, that is specific , but the issue before the House is a specified question on what is " Assembly" as defined on page 69 of the Act. The decision of the Business Committee cannot therefore bind the legal interpretation of the statute . OPPOSITION MEMBER : Chairman's ruling?
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to repeal Proclamation R.400 . " CHIEF D.D.P. Chairman.
I second, Mr.
This proclamation was put MR. JAFTA : into effect in the Transkei as a result of troubles which took place in Qaukeni area . The trouble in Qaukeni came to an end and thereafter the proclamation remained in force. You will remember that since 1964 when this parliament came into being this call was repeated constantly. That alone is proof that there is something which disturbs the people of the Transkei as regards the enforcement of this proclamation, and as we move among the people whether as members of the TNIP or the DP we are constantly faced with this question by the people : What are you doing about Proclamation R.400 ? This was referred to the hon. the Chief Minister in the different areas of the Transkei . The people plainly state that this is an unacceptable proclamation in view of the opinions expressed by both people in the Transkei and by visitors from outside that there is peace in the Transkei . This statement, however, seems to be contradicted by the continuance of this proclamation because although people say there is peace in the Transkei , yet this proclamation hangs over the people. This causes the people to be constrained in their lives as a result of this
What about the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : He has not ruled. He simply stated what happened. This is for attorneys - it is highly technical. The ordinary layman cannot understand the issues . Only the Leader of the Opposition could understand what we are talking about, so you keep quiet.
THE CHAIRMAN:
NDAMASE :
proclamation which is dangling over their heads all the time. It further gives power to chiefs to do things which are not proper among the people. For example , when there is a slight disturbance or misunderstanding between him and an individual he uses this proclamation to deport the individual from his area. These are painful experiences among the people , and we appeal to the Transkei Government to consult with the Government of the Republic to withdraw this proclamation. It is a known fact that we have courts of law where any culprit or lawbreaker can be brought to book. As we see it, this Proclamation R.400 gives power to the Government Party to do things as they would like to do them themselves.
Hon. members , I think...
Excuse me , Mr. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Chairman , if you are in any doubt we can adjourn so that the Chairman can get the opinion of the legal adviser to this House . THE CHAIRMAN : Yes , I am on that point. We shall adjourn now until 2.15 p.m. The Assembly adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : ticularly to the Government Party?
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House, I promised the House when we adjourned that I would give my ruling when we returned. With reference to the debate just before the adjournment today in connection with the interpretation of rule No. 37 , I rule that the Assembly referred to must be interpreted as meaning the Assembly as constituted anew after a general election and that every Assembly must consequently have the right to reconsider decisions of a previous Assembly as then constituted . Consequently I find that motion No. 6 as it appears on the order paper is in order. I shall therefore call upon the hon. member to proceed with his motion.
Why par-
MR. JAFTA: The existence of this proclamation keeps the people under constant fear. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . MR. JAFTA : If we want to hold a public meeting this proclamation makes it very difficult for us whereas any member of this Assembly should feel free to speak freely to any group of people anywhere without having to go and seek authority to address a meeting. At marriage
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feasts , or at any other type of feast that is held, we meet people who are keen to hear something of what is going on and we have found the existence of this proclamation in the way. What sort of representative will our people have in parliament, if such representative is not given authority to meet and discuss with the electorate ? This places us in a difficulty and under fear all the time. If we have race-horses and they are going to run a mile race , they all go to start at a distance of a mile away from the starting point, and if one horse wins the race that horse will be awarded the trophy. According to this it appears that the member who belongs to the Government side will always have an advantage in the end by finding he will have privileges which other members may not have . We appeal to the Government to consult with the Republican Government to remove this proclamation. It is not proper that we should be repeating the same thing over and over again, whereas you know very well the people disapprove of the existence of this proclamation. Now, my last word - there is peace over the whole of the Transkei . Why should we then still have these emergency regulations in a peaceful country?
lengthy over a matter which is clear to everyone namely, that this proclamation should be retained. Even as it is , if there is some difficulty in the Republic then recourse is had to this proclamation. No law is just applied for the sake of applying it. A law is only applied when necessary . We say we should retain whatever protects our country and we should retain it as long as there is Communism . CHIEF P. JOZANA : Isecond the amendment. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to second the motion. Indeed this proclamation brings difficulties to the people of the Transkei. I am not even sure whether the governing party is indeed intent on retaining this proclamation because in his address the hon. the Chief Minister stated that the Transkei is experiencing peace . That meant that whatever regulation is brought about as a result of the state of emergency in any country should be withdrawn when peace reigns . As far as internal security is concerned , the Transkei still remains under the protection of the Republican Government. Who doubts that the Republican Government is taking every measure to ensure internal security for the Transkei? If there be no such emergency then it means this proclamation is only for the Transkei , and why must we retain it? If it is maintained that the Transkei people are still so uncivilized, are they so uncivilized that they are unlike any other people in the Republic? In the Ciskei we have people very much like ourselves . We have chiefs , just as we have chiefs here in the Transkei but there is no regulation which applies only to the Ciskei. Sir , this proclamation gives power to the chiefs so that in case of disturbances peace will be maintained. Seeing that there is peace in the Transkei , is there any chief who doubts that so that he feels this proclamation should be put into force ? Whilst I will not say that any particular chief applied this proclamation unlawfully, there are chiefs who have used it in a manner that is not proper . Before the promulgation of this proclamation there were chiefs who did some very irregular things outside the Transkei . (Interjections) According to Bantu custom, when anybody has disobeyed a chief then all the members of the family are fined , rather than that the individual be deported. Some chiefs also use this proclamation to stop individuals moving among the people to preach their policy. (Interjections )
MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to oppose the motion introduced by the hon. member for Emboland , and in doing so I wish to move this amendment : -
That all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : "Proclamation No. R.400 safeguards the internal security and the peaceful administration of the Transkei and should be retained . " Mr. Chairman, this is not a promising motion and even last year it was opposed. I was one of those who opposed it because there is only one aim in the retention of this proclamation and that is to safeguard the security and peace of the Transkei. If you ask a thief if he approves of the law he will tell you he does not like it, yet if a thief had a sheep stolen from him he would be the first to run to the law. I have had one coming to me to ask me to request the Chief Minister for protection. I cannot see why they should ask for the repeal of a law which Some people protects them. (Interjections) have lost their lives through these thieves who come at night and kill people. Decent people are never to be found at meetings held at night. Where are people like Matyila , against whom people plotted and whom they killed ? Where are people like Mtambeka , against whom people plotted and went and killed at night? It is your aim to kill some more of the chiefs . I hear one hon. member saying it is Communists , but he forgets that Communists are people who work by night. All those people do their work by night and never by day. The object of this proclamation is to see to it that nobody will just go and hold meetings at their pleasure without obtaining the permission of the chiefs whom you so dislike . The hon. member who has just sat down told the House they find difficulty in holding meetings. I dispute that. They are allowed to hold meetings. There is
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Number 1 in that respect .
You are
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF NDAM ASE : As a result of this proclamation the Transkei is being reduced to a police state - a thing which is not approved of. A police state is brought about if the Government represents the policy of only the minority of its subjects . In the Transkei the Government party claims that they have a larger number among the elected members of the Assembly and on that account they should not keep the Transkei as a police state . I would like to make this clear - as the Government increases
legal provision to hold meetings . Why should they not hold meetings ? I do not intend to be
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legislation it also increases the number ofpeople who break the laws of the country. To illustrate , if you were to instruct small children to move only in a certain direction, you invite their curiosity to make them go in the opposite direction just to find out what you do not want them to know. There is no difficulty in a law, which the law makers themselves do not see the necessity for , being withdrawn from the statute book.
it will be wrong to repeal this law. You must leave this law in existence . In some places when a sentence is to be passed against a man, all his relatives and his in- laws are called, and then the person who is to be sentenced is shot and he struggles in his death throes while his family is watching. Those things are done far away. They should not be done here. The Government is well armed and they will protect you, but if anyone likes the Chinese and Russians they should go and make their home there . You should not have those things here. You are unarmed and are being cheated by the Russians who promised you arms . In
CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will make a small contribution to the debate on this motion. During 1960 there were disturbances in Eastern Pondoland, but these people never saw what happened there . I want to enlarge on that. The members should not be laughing at what I am now saying. I am going to say that all these people who are speaking never saw what happened in Eastern There is a certain attorney in Pondoland. Durban known as Ahrenstein. He is the very man who instigated this evil amongst the people in Eastern Pondoland. Then the people started setting homesteads on fire and killing people. Some of the chiefs died as a result. He came to my place but when he came to my home he found they could not come near me . I assaulted them so much that they ran. (Laughter) I fired at them with my gun and they went to Chief Gangata and killed someone. As this law was not in existence a long time ago it was only brought in during those disturbances. Should
turn those people will kill you, just as happened in Ovambo where children and Whites were killed. Communists are very tricky , I must tell you. They will seem to be (Laughter ) friendly but they will turn against you . You must all agree with the chiefs in this House and the chief who is going to become Prime I do not say you must not object Minister . where you think it is right and fitting to object . If those Communists come here we will give them a sound thrashing . We are expecting them . You want to form friendship with these Communists . Even if these Communists come here they The law which was promulgated in will die . 1960 , you were cheated by the Communists to accept such a law . You are to blame . Anybody who says this law should be repealed should go and join the ranks of the Communists . The Communists will serve you right if you keep company with them . They kill everyone , even children .
this law be repealed the people could do as they like with people's property. Those people who say this law should be repealed are merely dreaming. You have also heard it said that the Communists are coming to our country. Some were even killed along the Zambezi River . Their aim was to come to South Africa . This law was promulgated in order to protect all the people. You members of the DP are also protected under this regulation. Communists do not choose. They will even go to the extent of killing their own relatives . They kill women and children and everything . You must not think a Communist is your friend. He will also attack you. (Laughter) You must read the papers and if you don't buy the papers you must listen to FM radio and listen to the news of the world. You don't know what happened in Bizana . The Government spent a lot of money there . Both White and Black soldiers and constables were sent there . The Government must not just spend money foolishly. Some of these people will not fight but will just run and hide . The Government should only incur expense when a man is prepared to fight. What help is there if you do all you want to do and then you run away without standing to fight? (Laughter) You do not even make an attempt to fight. At Bizana, Flagstaff and Lusikisiki you ran and left This law protects men, your wives behind. women and children. Mr. Vigne was there in Bizana . I am referring to men who went to Bizana and to men who ran to the forests to hide and left their wives . All these people ran away . We know there were certain instigators. I can point out some of them . (Laughter)
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the side which maintains that this proclamation be withdrawn. It has been mentioned that the Transkei is very peaceful. It is very true that where the country makes several laws which disturb the peace of mind of the people then the people are inclined to break those laws - not that they are lawbreakers , but because there are so many laws they cannot move. I sometimes even hold that if there were no law even in the Garden of Eden the people there would not have broken any law. We have many police to maintain peace . There was no need to have this sword of Damocles hanging over the people - namely, Proclamation R.400. What the people are seeking is to be free from certain laws . You will remember that within the Republic we had an emergency law at the time of Sharpeville . The law came into force when there was cause , but when peace was restored it was withdrawn. In America President John Kennedy was assassinated , and Senator Robert Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King were also assassinated . We have not heard of any emergency regulation being introduced there. In India Mahatma Ghandi was assassinated and no emergency regulation was promulgated. In Nigeria.... THE CHIEF MINISTER :
And in Engcobo ?
MR. MAJIJA : We are not aware that any emergency regulation was put into effect in Nigeria. (Interjections)
People from Port St. Johns went over to Lusikisiki to be caught when the Government came in time. You should listen to what I say. I say
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please .
291 .
MR. MAJIJA: If death walks at the side of Some people die as a a person he will die. result of being struck by lightning, others as a result of illness , others as a result of violence. In Johannesburg, Cape Town and these other centres about ten people die every day, but we are not aware of the existence of any emergency regulations in those places . The chiefs think that this regulation was put into effect by the Republican Government to protect the chiefs , whereas the Republican Government merely wanted this policy of separate development to be carried out, knowing very well that the African people are friendly with any other people of any We still maintain that in this country tribe. we should live in harmony with all other peoples and enjoy the fruits of our labours together. When we have very cruel chiefs , as a result of this regulation then we experience great cruelty and in those areas the people's homesteads are set on fire. The people are called merely to be thrashed and taken from their residential areas to other places . No care is taken as to how that person will live in the area to which he is sent. All that matters is that he be removed because he is troublesome and hinders what we want to do. This regulation gives authority to some chiefs not to be contradicted in any public gathering. This practice is not according to the custom of the people. The Nationalists say the chiefs are the traditional leaders , whereas we know that leaders must emerge from among the people , and the chief must merely sit amongst the tribesmen. In making it possible for the number of chiefs in this Assembly to be greater than that of the elected members , the Government wanted to have its policy carried out. THE CHAIRMAN: You are out of the motion now.
MR. MAJIJA: As a result of this regulation the Government must have these homeguards and pay them .
clear beyond any doubt that the protagonists of the motion which seeks to have Proclamation R.400 withdrawn are doing so because they know that that proclamation militates against their nefarious , diabolical, iniquitous , subversive activities. I am glad that as I am saying that, I am looking at the ex-Minister of Justice , Mr. B.B. Mdledle , who once told them this. He gave a story of certain crows which were complaining against a windmill. They said the windmill would hurt them , or cause damage to them, or injury to them if they went to perch on it. One of the crows , a wise one , said : Does that windmill ever come to you or do you go and perch on the windmill ? Now, the effect of this proclamation is precisely the same. It never comes to anybody, but it is the persons who go against that proclamation. This proclamation came into being because of the communistic activities which spread throughout the Transkei, which came with men like Vigne , Duncan and the like . Now, those men know today , together with their associates , that they cannot come to the Transkei at will and cause an uprising against the Government. We know that the Democratic Party of the Transkei is working hand in glove with the communistic elements in the country. The other time I quoted to this House , while other members were not here , of course , a statement by Mr. Ahrenstein (a great Communist) where he said that the Democratic Party of the Transkei is doing a great amount of work for the Communist Party. One cannot imagine , one cannot believe, any people who are interested in seeing peace, order and quiet in the Transkei , working so much, perspiring and attacking so much against Proclamation R.400. Of course , we know that most of the hon. members across the floor are against chieftainship and they know perfectly well that some of the sections in this proclamation are there to protect and preserve the dignity of the institution of chieftainship. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: institution?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There are no homeguards in the proclamation.
Isn't it a belated
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , Ihear an hon. member saying that the institution of chieftainship is belated. I am glad he is supporting my very contention that most ofthe members across the floor are against the institution of chieftainship .
MR. МАЛЈА : This year we have R9,000 which has been set aside to pay these homeguards. Before the promulgation of this proclamation we had no homeguards whatsoever.
MR. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Before you started killing the people there was no such law. Put it that way .
MGUDLWA :
That was a question.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Iwill read to you some of the relevant sections . Section 11 reads as follows :- " Any person who (any person, including Ahrenstein, Vigne and Duncan – they are all included) – (a ) makes any statement verbally or in writing or does any act which is intended or is likely to have the effect of subverting or interfering with the authority of the State , the Chief Native Commissioner, a Native Commissioner of any other officer in the employ of the State , or of any chief or headman; (b) makes any statement verbally or in writing or does any act which consists of or contains any threat that any person will be subjected to any boycott or will suffer any violence , loss , disadvantage or inconvenience in his person or property or in the person or
MR. MAJIJA: Before you killed those people who were sent to the hospital at All Saints ' , because in the All Saints ' Hospital there were patients who had been injured in your area. I shall not be lengthy, but I maintain and support the motion that this proclamation be withdrawn altogether . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I wish to associate myself with the amendment that has been moved by the hon. the representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland. In so doing I would like to point out to the hon. members that it is
.292.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please .
property of any member of his family or household; " Are you against that provision? " (c) organises or takes part in any organised boycott of any meeting convened by an officer of the State or a chief or headman. " Are you against that? (Interjections ) I am showing you the provisions of this proclamation which you say must be repealed . I want to know if you are against these provisions. "(d) organises or takes part in any organised boycott against any person with the object of causing him loss, disadvantage or inconvenience in his person or property. " Are you against that? " (e ) being a Native refuses or neglects to obey any lawful order, including an order in accordance with Native law and custom issued by a chief or headman to whose authority he is subject; " But, of course , the people who are against chieftainship will be against chieftainship will be against this. Are you against that? " (f) being a Native treats the chief or headman to whose authority he is subject with disrespect, contempt or ridicule or fails or neglects to show that respect and obedience and to render such services to such chief or headman as should be shown or rendered in accordance with Native law and custom . " Of course, as I have said, the people who are against the institution of chieftainship will be against these provisions . (Interjections ) Now, are you against that? You are another deserter . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: struck off the roll.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When during 1960 the disturbances came about in Eastern Pondoland , while chiefs were killed and murdered, while arson was the order of the day, nothing could be done because there was no law whereby these gatherings could be controlled. It took months and months before the negotiations went through between the Transkei and the Republican Government and in the meantime people were dying. Now, you want the same state of affairs to happen. (Interjections ) You want Proclamation R400 to be repealed so that when you start your nefarious schemes we will have no instrument whereby we can curb such While this proclamation also is in schemes . existence we have seen the fangs of these would-be murderers. They planned with Doubt and some of the members of this House were involved in those plans. How much more if this proclamation is repealed ? I do not want to belabour this point any longer , but I just wanted to show you that we see through the bluff that you are trying to give to the people . The hon. member for Qumbu first spoke the truth when he said that this militates against both the Government party and the Opposition party, but then he turns somersault and says that when horses are being put to a race there are some horses which are ahead of others who are at the back. During the electioneering in the last general election this law never militated against anybody. (Interjections) You had to ask for permits . (General uproar)
I have not been
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now , as I have said, anybody who is against this proclamation is not pleased that there is peace , order and quiet in the Transkei, and you would like to see confusion, violence , chaos , turmoil and pandemonium . (Laughter) Now, there is no running away from the fact that although this proclamation is still in existence we still have subversive elements in this Transkei and , incidentally, these subversive elements always come from the ranks of your party. I am very sorry to have to quote the name of a relative of mine , because I am not happy that he is in prison. Recently there has been a case (a terrorist case ) in Pietermaritzburg . Some men from the Transkei were involved in that case and one of them, a strong supporter and protagonist of your party, was involved and was found guilty and sentenced. MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: nungwa? (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You were given permits. We also asked for permits and ve were given permits . We all canvassed for votes, but most unfortunately the people had seen through the bluff of your policy. ( Interjections ) You failed in a well organized election. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : did you say at Fort Malan?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not excusing anyone . Now, the position is this - that , please, gentlemen , co-operate with us in keeping peace and quiet in the Transkei . We know that there is a saying that if you cannot get something by fair means you may resort to foul means . That is precisely why one of the members of the Opposition side , who is not a member of this House now, even went to the extent of thinking that a leaf of a tree buried in Mount Frere would kill a man in Umtata. (Laughter) It was precisely because he was so desperate , he had to resort to foul methods . He organized , and even organized one of the hon. chiefs who is in front of me here . He is asleep, of course , (Laughter) but he was mentioned in the very famous case of Nkosiyane , Nogcantsi and others, that he had been approached by these would- be killers. (Interjections) They approached people whom they knew would likely join them in the scheme but, unfortunately, although they always pretend to be bold, they turned tail when the matter came to the hilt and started giving evidence for the State. Some of them came running to the Government of the Transkei to give them
What about Tshu-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That man is a relative of mine and his name is Joyi. MR. MGUDLWA :
Excuse me, what
Is he in this House?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Whether he is or not, he is a member of the Democratic Party. That shows you that while we may say that ex facie there is peace in the Transkei , there are still subversive elements prowling around. It may be so throughout the world, but we have got to see that we have an instrument for protecting the Transkei. (Interjections) 293.
protection because they said that their lives were at stake. (Laughter) They wanted homeguards, actually wanted homeguards , whom they say they do not want, and some of them wanted to be armed and when they come to this House they always speak against these things . Why should the chiefs be armed, and why should the They chiefs be protected by homeguards? actually want these things themselves when they find themselves in a quagmire of trouble. I am sure when they find themselves in trouble they will run for the assistance of Proclamation R.400. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : At Cala when you were threatened with assault you asked for the protection of the police. (Laughter) Yes, you speak against the police and, in fact, when you were at Cala you tried to run to the police but you couldn't run because you are so short. (Laughter ) That is the trouble with the hon. members across the floor. By day and inside this House they always pretend to stand for certain principles, but by night and outside this House they come running to us for assistance . Mr. Chairman, I feel that we have discussed this matter sufficiently. I have said what I wanted to say to the hon. members and have shown them just what they are . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to speak, associating myself with the speakers on this side of the House, to the effect that this unbearable and unpleasant law should be withdrawn from over the heads of the people of the Transkei. Why is it that during a peaceful time such as we have had there should always be dangling over the heads of the people something that does not please them . CHIEF M. MATANZIMA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question. I want to know if members of the Opposition are unanimous in this motion.
THE CHAIRMAN: speaker ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, he must withdraw that because even the House and the Chairman know I am an elected member.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He is not withdrawing if he says "I have said it" . He must make an unconditional withdrawal . MR. MGUDLWA: it pleases you. THE CHAIRMAN:
I will withdraw then, as
With no qualifications .
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. MR. MGUDLWA: We would that this proclamation should be withdrawn. What is it that always makes you afraid, whereas the Republic has withdrawn this? Even when Tsafendas assassinated the Prime Minister in Parliament this proclamation was not brought into effect. You keep on referring to matters in Engcobo area , whereas the courts of this country realise there was nothing in this. It is not necessary that we should be living in this constant fear. Fear is bred of a guilty conscience , when a person knows there is something wrong with himself. When I was a clerk at Cofimvaba there were troubles there during the 1963 elections resulting in the demolition of homesteads in different areas . You are making an effort to put me off the trend of my thoughts , but you will not be successful. Proclamation R400 has this evil effect, that it binds a person hand and foot and he is unable to express himself as he would like to. I would the hon. member for Nqamakwe would say I am Tsafendas .
I am on the floor. Is he THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The hon. member must please address the Chair. Are
you
asking the
CHIEF MATANZIMA: Yes , because I know of some cases where this proclamation has been used by hon. members of the Opposition side. MR. MGUDLWA: I am not perturbed by the buzzing of insignificant mosquitoes . May this proclamation be withdrawn from over the Transkei. For a long time we have spoken about this. Why is it that a person who fears his own shadow does not just run into an abyss ? The hon. member who last spoke, who is not an elected member of Cofimyaba... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order ... MR. MGUDLWA: came a member....
MR. MGUDLWA: I was still going to enlarge on what I was saying.
MR. MGUDLWA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman, with pleasure , but I have said it, though.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
MR. MGUDLWA: asking from me?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think the hon. member knows he is telling an untruth because I am a duly elected member for Cofimvaba.
....because he merely be-
MR. MGUDLWA: I have heard the names of people referred to in this debate, such as Vigne , who are unknown to me, (Laughter) and several others whose names were read by the hon. member, such as Ahrenstein. He himself does not know these people personally. He only sawtheir names in the papers . Evidently he was told that these people were of such and such a character and he does not know that they are of such character. If we want to live happily and peacefully in this land let us leave all hearsay stories out. We have chiefs on this side of the House and there is not one of them who has a guard around him. Why? - because all of them are at peace with their consciences and automatically their subjects are ad idem with them . Why do we have this sword hanging over us? Whether we like it or not we are the children of the Republican Government and we take our example from them. We live at peave with the 294.
has been said by the hon. Mr. Majija because we have been informed that people have been killed in his area . He even went further, to tell us about things that occurred in other countries such as America, which he has never visited . I heard one speaker say that when a man begins to develop grey hair there is also deterioration in his grey matter. I am making this reference in regard to the Opposition . (Laughter) It is not our wish that Proclamation R.400 be repealed . If one of the hon. members opposite should go out to the people he would not be able to make these announcements to the people. It is not true that they have not been allowed to hold meetings in areas under headmen and chiefs . Their leader was in our area and he was allowed to speak to people . He never produced any document as a result of this proclamation. I think there are certain matters which we should discuss , but there are certain matters appertaining to other countries which need not be discussed so far as this country is concerned . If this law is withdrawn from the area in which I live , these people would not stand, besides the axes and other things . Before people were killed and murdered in Engcobo and other districts , this law was already in existence . I know about these members who are determined that this law should be repealed . I know them to be thieves . (Laughter)
Republic. Even now I see three Europeans on the other side of the House . They keep on whispering and we know that they were instrumental in seeing that this motion was put down, as an effort was made to keep it out. If democracy is raped in this manner, what will happen to us? Indeed, where shall we be? One might reply if one wished. It is a good thing if a man finds himself in difficulty to call out to his God. Let me tell you in very plain terms, without concealing anything , speaking out my mind fully : Come over to our side , please . Be of one mind with us and help us to have Proclamation R400 withdrawn, as it is a disgrace to the Transkei. You are not only disgracing the Transkei but you are disgracing the Republic which is the mother of the Transkei Government, and you are bringing disgrace to the whole of South Africa How is public opinion and the whole world. That is the question, to react against that? and I put it and I specially put that question. Please help. I repeat : Brothers , please help . During the 1963 election under a clause found in this proclamation , in the Qumanco area of St. Mark's district, my brother , S.K. Mgudlwa, a candidate for the Democratic Party , was persecuted. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. MGUDLWA: He was persecuted , and the Special Branch was constantly on his trail by night and day because he wanted to speak the truth, just to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, and finally he said : Help me God that I may speak the truth. (Laughter) If a man is leaning against a feeble stick, why doesn't he just say : I am being swept away by the river and in this connection I abandon this idea? For a long time this House asked that Proclamation 400 be withdrawn. Why is it not being withdrawn? What is the fear ? It is not a disgrace for a person to walk across to the Opposition side , and I say to him and you say to him and one says to the other, and then we say one to the other: No , brother , the road that you are following is leading to destruction. (Laughter ) We want to go to a land of safety. In these few words I nail the last nail into the coffin of this Proclamation R400 that it may be buried , and buried for ever and ever, from the land ofthe Transkei · a land that I love very much.
MR . K.M. GUZANA : must withdraw that.
The hon . member
THE CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member withdraw . MR. DOKOLOWANA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. Another point I wish to raise is this : If anything is going to be brought before people a man who moves such a matter should be a man of integrity. Sometimes it happens that one man only thinks of a particular individual when he is going to raise a motion, and then decides that something should be done away with. I heard one of the hon. members say that this law was made only for certain people and not for others . That was a mistake , because this law is intended for everyone. Even as we are inthis Assembly, if something should happen we would call upon the police. The police cannot come in except under the authority of this proclamation. Another thing which I have seen happening is that whenever anyone stands up the Opposition can never keep their mouths closed . There is only one reason for that. It is because they have been staying with chiefs who have been under the protection of this law and at the same time they have also been under the protection of this law. I appeal to you all , my elders , to come to our side and leave this proclamation to remain as it is. The hon. Mr. Mgudlwa , I know, will concur with what I have said. I appeal that no-one should come between me and the hon. Mr. Mgudlwa because we know one another well . I know that he has now accepted what I have stated. (Laughter) I thought when the hon. Mr. Jafta, the mover of this motion, had thought over this matter when we came back this afternoon he would know what to do about it. I would now ask you to be silent - a Bomvana has
MR . S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I want to associate myself with the members who say that Proclamation R.400 should not be repealed. When the mover of the motion moved I thought he was going to say something of value . It is quite clear to my mind that the people who are going to lead the small territory of the Transkei into destruction are the members of the Opposition, because on all occasions when a law is made for the people , they only desire that that law should come from their side . They would only assume that the law is theirs without consultation with the people. We on this side understand that there are certain places where this particular regulation is required, and the hon. Chief Ndamase did not make it clear to us when he said that this law does not work in certain areas . It is not necessary for me to say much about what
spoken. (Laughter) 295.
TRANSKEI FOREST BILL : SECOND READING
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is maintained that we are a free people in the Transkei , but in the Transkei we live in fear fear of the Government that we have, the Government of the Transkei. As a result of this Proclamation R.400 a person who does not support this Government will never know what may happen to him even to-night. The hon. members onthe opposite side know very well that the time for this proclamation has expired. They keep on counting people who have been murdered at different times . Murder has been in existence for a very long time. Even in Bible history there were murderers who were sentenced. This proclamation was not promulgated because of the murderers whom we are constantly meeting every day. It only came into being to protect Qaukeni and Rode areas , (Laughter) where, as a result of the failure of the paramount chiefs there not being able to administer properly, the people rose against them .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable members , I rise to move the Second reading of the Transkei Forest Bill, 1969. Forestry is, after agriculture , the next most important undertaking in the Transkei. The forest estate at present comprises some 216,000 acres of indigenous forests and approximately 125,000 acres of plantations . Most ofthe plantations are still young and have not yet reached the production stage . Nevertheless there are at present five sawmills in production which are sawing some two million cubic feet of sawlogs annually and this volume will increase rapidly during the next few years as the younger plantations come into production.
The present estimated value of the forest estate is approximately twenty-five million rand and this value is increasing rapidly. If the present programme of development is completed as proposed it may confidently be expected that the capital value of the forest estate will by the end of the century increase to about eighty million rand .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is an insult now. You cannot talk like this . You are attacking our persons now.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Then the Republican Government took some measures , and by having a large police force the Republican Government put an end to the disturbances there . They also had helicopters .... THE CHIEF MINISTER: murders?
The present forest revenue is about R750,000 per annum but with the rapid increase in exploitation it is expected that the annual revenue will increase to over three million rand during the next ten years. In addition the forests , plantations and sawmills provide a valuable source of employment and at present employ 604 permanent staff and over five thousand labourers .
And the Bashee
CHIEF NDAMASE : People were being murdered in Rode area and the trouble came to an end as is evidenced by the peace reigning now in those areas . It is for that reason that we maintain that this proclamation should be repealed.
It will therefore be realised that forestry in the Transkei is a very valuable asset and an important and rapidly developing industry. It is therefore essential that we should have our own Transkei Forest Act in order to provide for the proper protection, control and administration of this valuable asset and to ensure the proper development of the rapidly expanding forest industry .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn until tomorrow morning.
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 29th May, 1969.
Since the introduction of self-government in 1963 the forests and plantations in the Transkei have all been administered as Transkeian Government forests and plantations . Practically all the forests and plantations were withdrawn from demarcation under the Forest Act in 1957 and transferred to the Trust. Since then they have been administered in terms of the Trust Forest Regulations published in Government Notice No 494 of 1937. These regulations were withdrawn in the Republic in 1967 and replaced by new Trust Forest Regulations which however are not applicable in the Transkei.
THURSDAY, 29th MAY, 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and conformed. TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE PENSIONS AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I now move that the Transkei Government Service Amendment Bill be read a third time.
The few remaining forests and plantations situated on commonage ground which were not withdrawn from demarcation in 1957 are still being administered under the Forest Act No. This Act has also recently been 13 of 1941. withdrawn in the Republic and replaced by a new Republican Forest Act (No. 72 of 1968 ) which is also not applicable in the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I second . Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. 296.
ture ". There is also another aspect of this matter of preserving the forests of the Transkei and increasing them. I think the hon. Minister will agree that in certain parts of the Transkei there are not adequate plantations to supply fuel , and it is pathetic to find people roaming the veld to collect dry cow-dung in order to make a fire . I think this is a matter which should deserve the attention of your department, Sir, and ways and means should be found of spreading your forests and plantations , particularly in those areas, so that this hardship is alleviated . This is the more important because we have no coal mined in the Transkei and our source of fuel is from the trees that grow in the forest. With the restrictions which will flow from this Act, we are going to find that people are going to be put to a great deal of hardship in finding fuel , and I would ask that in the administration of this Act the structures embodied in it should be related to the supply available to provide fuel in the home . May I point out, Sir , that there is a general complaint to the effect that no-one may touch a tree, but has infringed the law these days . There is a big cry in the rural areas over this which they regard as a restrictive measure and many people have found themselves prosecuted even when they have cut these even within their Now, when I look at the garden allotments . Government benches I see long faces because now that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry has brought this bill before this ! House, the members of the governing side will not be able to get any help from these herbalists . (Laughter ) I cannot see a herbalist going into a forest to peel off bark, and dig up roots in order to prepare concoctions for incisions which I can smell among the Government members . (Laughter) Now, Sir , I am the last person to suggest that herbs and barks are not medicinal and I think science has conceded that some of the roots are of great medicinal value . Here I am not including the witchcraft practices which we always relegate to the fair sex. I am speaking of what is helpful to the individual by way of administration of brews prepared from these herbs. I hope , Sir , that administratively you will take into account the fact that there herbalists are will want who genuine area of the forests to the into go to draw the raw material to prepare their medicinal Let me point out also that the concoctions. greater is the area of afforestation , the bigger is the population of monkeys and baboons in these forests , and these become a menace to the farmers who grow mealies , pumpkins , etc. Whilst we would like these animals protected , I think your department should consider a limitation on the monkey and baboon population in the forests. I am happy that you have protected the "theza" method of collecting fuel and I hope that you will consider also protecting the "zingela" practice , because hunting is quite a thrilling and a fascinating pastime . We are , ' however, not suggesting that everybody should go into the forest any time of the year to hunt, but that these matters should be borne in mind. I welcome the idea of establishing camping sites inside forests , and I hope that when you do establish these camping sites they will be provided with facilities in order to make them comfortable as these may well provide revenue for
The forests and plantations in the Transkei are therefore at present being controlled and administered by laws and regulations which have been withdrawn in the Republic and replaced by new laws and regulations. For this reason too it is necessary to introduce our own Transkei Forest Act, in order to consolidate the existing forest laws and regulations and to bring them up to date and into line with the new forest legislation in the Republic, due to the need to work in close liaison with the Republican Government in connection with the marketing of timber .
The Transkei Forest Bill is not a contentious bill. The provisions for the reservation offorest land, the demarcation of forest reserves , the protection of forests and plantations , the control of cutting and the sale of forest produce are all based on the existing laws and regulations , whilst the existing right to " theza " has been preserved and protected . It is, hownecessary ever, to introduce new legislation in Section 19 to control the quality and grading of forest produce due to the introduction of compulsory grading of structural timber in the Republic from 1st April , 1969, since a large proportion of the timber produced in the Transkei is sold in the Republic . It is also necessary to amend Proclamation No. 3 of 1949 to provide for more effective control of camping in forest reserves along the coast. Otherwise the Bill merely seeks to consolidate the existing laws and regulations and to bring them up to date in order to safeguard this valuable asset, to provide for efficient control and administration of the forests and plantations and to ensure the future development of the forest industry. Mr. Chairman I now move that the Bill be read a second time.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry has correctly stated that this is not a contentious piece of legislation and I believe there is nothing political about preserving forests and things of that nature . I think also it is sound policy to relate our Forest Act to the Forest Acts ofthe Republican Government because the rest of the Republic is going to provide a market for our forest produce and one cannot recommend too strongly the policy of increasing our timber productivity in the Transkei. I would like this awareness to be coupled with an idea to develop furniture factories in the Transkei. I think we have a very big furniture market in the Transkei and , as people become more and more Westernized as against the government policy to become tribalized, we need dining-room suites , sitting- room suites , bedroom suites , made of quality timber. I have myself had some pieces of furniture made for my house by Vulindlela Factory and I must say it has been of a very high quality of workmanship . We hope that one day we shall be able to follow the slogan " Buy home-produced furni297 .
this Government. Those are my comments on the bill, Sir , thank you.
If a number of people go out with their dogs to hunt this animal , your employees in the forest will think they have gone out to hunt jackals.
MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has made my task very light and in seconding my hon. friend on the bill he has brought forward before the House , I feel that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has very much lightened my task. Even though there may perhaps be some points we may discuss further, I think the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition have covered everything and we need not lengthen the discussion. Let us however thank the Department of Forestry, seeing they have such a great number of employees in their department. We should thank the department further as they are proposing to increase the area of afforestation where there are as yet no forests. We thank the department also for having the type of timber in their department which can be used to make the very beautiful furniture which has just been referred to by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . This means , therefore , that we in the Transkei have a department which is providing for employment and finding work for a number of our people who are unemployed and cannot find employment anywhere . We therefore encourage the department to take further steps to increase its work so that our children will find employment more and more easily and so that more people will be employed. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition mentioned a number of facts which I would like to mention, but I will just say I agree with him in all respects , especially as regards the medicine men who have to go to the forests to dig the medicinal roots which will help the people. It is a matter that cannot be contradicted that there are some trees and herbs with such medicinal value as to be of use to the people. It is on that account that we feel such people who use and know these roots must be permitted to collect them. Further, he is right in what he says about the pastime of hunting, especially the hunting of jackals . I agree with him that such hunting expeditions must be controlled and people should not just be allowed to go freely at any time to hunt for these animals. With these words , therefore I would like to thank the department for the progressive steps they have taken in this direction. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon.
MR. M. MASIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to sing the praises on this bill from the Department of Agriculture and In our area of Nqamakwe we are Forestry. very keen to have more plantations and forests, especially since we have accepted the rehabilitation scheme. The difficulty imposed on our womenfolk was very evident, especially during the recent rainy season, and because of that every person from the area has asked us to bring forward the idea of having a belt of trees to We thank the department protect the stock. also for allowing the chiefs free access to and use of the natural forests outside the boundaries of demarcated forests. It is just there that if a headman requires to be granted a privilege the chief allows him to cut trees . As we have more of these the chief gives the opportunity not only to his headmen but to all the people to have access to these trees. When the wattle tree has been planted , the seeds and roots spread to the arable allotments and as a result these lands become useless for agriculture. It is for that reason that we praise the hon. Minister for allowing the chiefs a free hand with these so that they can root out these wattle trees . Further, he has given us a list of the trees which are protected. I think the whole of the Transkei will appreciate and support this bill which will do so much good. I would be happy, Sir, if you could give some of the areas free permission to hunt in some of these forests. There are quite a number of wild animals living in these plantations and forests , and in our area a young man went into one of these plantations in broad daylight and the chief next to this forest called the people and told them someone had gone into the forest. When the hon. member spoke here he said there was an animal called " ingqawa" , but I would like to say there are others which have only two legs . By allowing the people to have these small hunting expeditions you will stop such animals from attacking people of my age. If you stop these hunting expeditions these " ingqawas" will take away a number of old men such as I am. One person referring to this young man who went into the forest, said he would not be killed but they would use him as a playing . Can you think of an old man such as I am being played with in such a manner? We appeal, therefore , to the hon. (Laughter) Minister to allow people to have free hunting expeditions into these forests . We also appeal on behalf of a few people who want to grow trees behind their homesteads . We would like them to be given a little ground for that purpose. These trees grown close to the homestead are useful in a number of ways. Lightning and thunder are also prevented from harming the people by the presence of these trees. It is on that account that I appeal to you to allow the people a little ground to be able to grow trees next to their homesteads . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
members , I would like to make a request to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. Seeing that he is keen on destroying jackals , could he not grant permission to the people living in the neighbourhood of the forests to hunt and destroy these animals ? During the drought our animals grazed very close to the forests and plantations , and the jackal had the opportunity to do much harm. The jackal can breed very profusely and in a short time there are quite a number of them. I can assure you that we have trained dogs which will not hunt for any other animal but the jackal. There is another animal which lives in the forests which kills the young calves and that is the " ingqawa" and this animal , as soon as the cow has.calved , jumps on to the calf, sucks out the blood and If a person is nearby it attacks him kills it. and tries to kill him. That necessitates a number of people going out to hunt and kill the animal.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am happy also to have a word to say on the bill before the House . We accept this bill whole-heartedly but there are a few
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should be granted freedom to hunt for these animals . Another matter I would like to mention is that in the areas next to the sea there are forests which are not fenced in. The area along the coastline from Mpame to the Bashee is not fenced and we would be happy if all that area could be fenced in. If stock strays into these forests the people are charged and fined up to R50 .
points I should like to comment on. The Transkei is a land of many hills and mountains and these areas cannot be used for the cultivation of maize and other foodstuffs . We are happy to note , however , that in such areas plantations are being increased and we approve of that because these plantations are profitable and very useful in those areas . Further , as we have more of these plantations the landscape is beautified , but, apart from improving the appearance of the land , these plantations encourage the rain and the rainfall is thereby improved . Further , we would like children to be instructed in regard to some of these matters inthe schools , because the future population of the Transkei is in the schools . We would like the importance of these trees to be taught to the children even at an early age . I say this because the people do not worry about setting fire to the grass close to the plantations and this does a great deal of damage to the trees. If this instruction is given to school children as they grow they will disseminate this information among the people in the reserves and they also will be conscious of the importance of these trees. Very many elderly people think that what belongs to the Government does not belong to them and if it is damaged it has nothing to do with them , whereas if we were to be instructed properly and made aware that these trees and forests are part of our life , then such an attitude will disappear. One other thing we would appeal to the department to do is to have strips of plantations in grazing areas so that the stock will be protected from the cold, biting winds in those parts. Mr. Chairman, very many things have been said by other speakers and there is no need for me to repeat them .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , I think the Chair should draw the attention of hon. members to the fact that we are merely dealing with the principles of the bill. What is being said can be said during the committee stage. MR. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman, I would like to say just one word. I note that the hon. the Minister of Education says I am out of order. However , I am making a request regarding this point because it affects people very much. We would ask the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to think very closely about matters he places before us here . In order that he may know clearly the demands of the people he should allow us to keep visiting him in his office about these things.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is just one thing I would like clarified by the hon. Minister. In the 26 districts of the Transkei there are many which have not accepted rehabilitation. The tendency ofyour Government is to give first preference to the areas which have accepted rehabilitation , whereas the people who are in unrehabilitated areas also require these plantations , and they are also residents of the Transkei. It sometimes is clear that even in an area which is found to be suitable for these plantations , the plantations are not established there because the people have not accepted rehabilitation. It has come to my notice from the point of view of this Department of Agriculture....
MR. S. DOKOLWANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , most of the important things have been mentioned already by other members of the House but I will just say the last word . I shall not say much, especially because some good points have been raised . However , I would like to make this request to the hon. Minister. As I come from an area next to the sea which has a number of natural forests , there is something which I would like noted , especially in regard to the forests which have been handed over to the chiefs , because we have trees there which have been given to the government plantations although they are in the area allocated to the chief. The headmen sometimes grant permission to anyone to cut down trees without stipulating that there are trees which they must not cut. This brings the police on the scene and places the people in a difficulty as the police would like to prosecute and the headman says he granted permission for the trees to be cut. Would it not be possible to have a note which would protect these trees handed over to the people who go into the plantations to cut the trees ? I will direct you to page 35 which contains all I have been saying . I would like to say a little about the wild animals in these forests. In our area we have a kind of animal , the top part of which is an animal and the bottom part like a crocodile . In addition we have other animals which are a danger to our poultry. There is another one , the duiker (mpunzi) which destroys the bean crop, and we also have the monkey. By all this I mean to say that people
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, we are dealing here with the Forest Bill. First preference or no first preference , does it matter inthe principles. The bill will apply to all areas of this bill? equally when it is approved . thing as first preference .
There is no such
MR. ZIBI : Unless the hon. the Minister of Education wishes to suggest to this House that our Chairman is unitelligent, because he knows when we are out of order... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am telling you you are highly unintelligent not to know when you are out of order. MR. ZIBI : As an hon. member has mentioned in this House , we feel they should choose an area which can be planted profitably by this department.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, these things can come into the committee stage, not during this second reading MR. ZIBI : ...and sometimes they choose an area which is flat in which to establish plantations. That is all I wish to say, Mr. Chairman. 299 .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , Ifeel much has been said on this bill and I would like to ask the hon. Minister concerned to reply if he has anything to say.
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, the committee stage should come on Tuesday, 3rd June , or So soon thereafter.
THE MINISTER OF AGIRUCULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I greatly welcome the remarks which have been made by everybody in this Chamber. They were all very constructive suggestions. Perhaps the most important would be the one mentioned by the hon. Mr. Jafta with reference to tree-planting education being instilled into school children. I happen to know that some of our agricultural officers are already doing that work, and I can only hope that all will undertake it. It is the policy of my department. With reference to hunters and herbalists , I am afraid they will have to come under strict control as they may cause destruction to very valuable trees and other forest produce. However, Ithink the people who would like to help in the control of jackals and the "ingqawas" would do well to do what is done by other people , by forming themselves into hunting clubs and these reported to us so that we can see how we can allow them at certain times to arrange hunts , and to watch them as well .
REPEAL OF PROCLAMATION R.400 The debate was resumed.
THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder if we cannot at this juncture ask the mover to reply, or do the members wish to give still more time to the debate ? MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I think we would like some more time on this , Sir, and we crave your indulgence accordingly. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , yesterday I had a couple of minutes granted me and I would like the Chairman to advise me how much longer to speak as I thought I had about 20 or 25 minutes . Mr. Chairman and Hon. members , I would like to begin by pulling asunder all that was said by the hon. the Minister of Education. The hon. Minister took all the acts of murderers as being in line with the policy of the Opposition. I would like to say that not one of those murderers ever said that what he did was in the name of the Democratic Party.
MR. GUZANA: I want to register my hunting club - membership, one. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Well, it will not be so easy to control a membership of one. It will be too costly. In regard to furnituremaking we produce the timber for the time being and the XDC are the people who produce the In the planned areas woodlots are furniture. fuel as well as shelter to stock. give to provided It is, however, difficult when we come to unplanned areas to plan only the woodlots. One hon. member mentioned certain trees growing outside demarcated areas of the forest in the unfenced areas where these have been demarcated. Wattle trees and gum trees should be cut down freely in such areas under the control , of course, of the headmen. In fact, in my area we treat them as noxious weeds, as decided by the headmen and the people . Shelter trees around the homesteads would be rather awkward to allow in some places. It would be far better if people could put these trees inside their building sites. However, the question of wind trees established by the officers of the Government will be considered. It should be remembered that the question of woodlots , as established in the planned areas mostly, falls outside the department. They belong directly to the people themselves and therefore would be a very good advantage and encouragement for their proper establishment. The question of wild animals , to which our attention has been brought by several members , we are not yet very definite about the law in regard to the control of wild animals as well as flora, but this is under consideration so that before many months, perhaps , you will learn more about it from my department. With those few words , Mr. Chairman, I think I have dealt with all the main points and the rest we will come to when we deal with the committee stage. I move the second reading.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF NDAM ASE: If any murderer carried out his schemes even though he is a member of this party, he did that on his own and not on behalf of the party. Likewise a relative of the Minister's who was involved in the case in Pietermaritzburg committed a crime not because he was a relative of his , but on his own. To come back to the motion, ifthe hon. members on the other side are not thick-headed they will appreciate what I want to say. If they are not tar babies then they will understand. All the hon. members on the other side of the House have said they want independence for the Transkel . They have been saying this for a long time and they have discovered that the Republican Government is not prepared to give us that independence. I would like to make it clear to you.... THE CHAIRMAN : Keep to the motion before the House , please. CHIEF NDAMASE : I will tell you why the Republican Government will not grant you independence. Please do not mention THE CHAIRMAN: independence . That has nothing to do with Proclamation R.400 .
CHIEF NDAMASE : The reason is.... THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, please speak about Proclamation 400.
MR. M. MASIKO: I second. 300.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I maintain it is this proclamation which is in the way of all these things , even the one I have just mentioned. (Laughter) The Republican Government....
ment of the Republic because the Government does not feel free to allow the people of the Transkei to have this freedom when they have all the time been under suppressive regulations . We have recently had a general election and in that election the governing party had the majority of representatives , but I am quite certain they are not quite happy and they will not say it is because the people support their policy. There are very many people who voted for the Government party because they feared what would happen if they voted for the Democratic Party.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , will you continue debating outside the motion? If you do you had better sit down. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I am trying to discuss Proclamation R.400 and I am going into that. Because of the number of regulations abutting on Proclamation R.400 it appears that when people want to have a meeting they cannot have it. If we did not have this proclamation, if a member of the Assembly wanted to report back to his people he would go straight to the headman and ask the headman to call a meeting for him, but because of the existence of this proclamation we cannot take such steps until we have had the permission of the paramount chief, if there is one for the area, and the resident magistrate . It is on that account that we support the motion that this proclamation be repealed. These suppressive regulations usually have very bad results such as we have seen in other lands . At one time I boarded an aeroplane at Kano in Nigeria in the company of a European attorney who came from Ghana, a country which had recently attained independence . This attorney had gone to defend people who were in trouble as a result of repressive legislation in that country and he told me he could not speak in court as a result of this
THE CHIEF MINISTER: of you in your constituency?
CHIEF NDAMASE : They were afraid of what the Government might do because of the existence of Proclamation R.400.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Answer my question. Were they afraid of you? CHIEF NDAM ASE: With those words I support whole-heartedly the motion to the effect that Proclamation R.400 should be removed for the statute book in a country which maintains it is peaceful. MR. E.A. PINYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am very sorry that this motion has been moved by an hon. member like Mr. Jafta. Many people in this House have never experienced that state of affairs where terrorism has occurred. Some people say that this happened in Eastern Pondoland and yet it is not so, as we of Qaukeni are on the border of Natal and the young men of the Transkei are at work in Durban. This was a strategy on the part of the Communists. It was then said that those who were in Durban, Johannesburg, Cape Town and East London , the young men ofthe Transkei , should attack all the people from the chiefs to ordinary commoners . That was the aim of this movement. They wanted to kill all the chiefs and leaders in this country. In Bizana where it started there were many great meetings held in the mountains . A lot of money was paid to those men who remained in the mountains . In those mountains all the meetings were preceded by prayers (Laughter) and because people noted that prayers were said there they thought this movement had something in it. You will not believe me when I tell you that all these people were steamrolled into going to the mountain and they were told that if they did not attend the meetings they would in turn be killed. Young men used to be sent to the people who owned shops and told they should collect amounts varying from R10 upwards. They had to tell the people that this money was required in the mountains . (Laughter) In their meetings it was stated that the headmen were not wanted, chiefs were not wanted , as well as the leaders. Even if one of their friends greeted a chief with the usual salute " Bayete " , that man met his death. You see, on the mountain-top new chiefs were elected who were just chiefs for a day, with instructions that So- and- so who had been appointed a chief would control that area and , similarly, instructions were issued in connection with arable allotments. (Laughter) In fact, that
legislation because it was mentioned he was White. He said: "The fact that I am White does not affect my presence here. I have come here because everywhere in the streets and on the doors is written ' Freedom and Independence ' , but that freedom and independence refers only to the African people and not to the Whites. " When we were conversing with my European friend behind us I joined a member of the Opposition Party in Ghana and he spoke with reference to these suppressive regulations. In his remarks he said he did not think the end of Nkrumah's life would be a happy one, because you cannot say a nation is independent when at the same time they are under repressive laws and regulations. Mr. Chairman, you all know what happened to Nkrumah and we would not like a similar thing to happen in the Transkei . If you retain these suppressive regulations all the time there will come a time when the people will do something very unpleasant. We appeal to both the royal members of the Matanzima family to look into this matter and try to put it right.
THE CHAIRMAN: referring to persons?
Were they afraid
Hon member, are you
CHIEF NDAMASE : I was referring to the people who are responsible and at the head of the Government. THE CHAIRMAN: Don't be personal . CHIEF NDAMASE : As is evident, you are aware that even as a Government there are certain things you cannot get from the Govern-
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actually was done - this allocation which emanated from the meetings on top of the mountain. ·4 Wonderfully enough , even the government se vants now crawled up the mountains to occupy positions as clerks . ( Laughter) In fine , Mr. Chairman , I say this regulation should be left as it is . It is of great use . I am sure if this procalamation is repealed you will see what you wanted. Our sons who are in the great labour centres do not even want this parliament. They know nothing . When we went to Pretoria in connection with this Constitution, there was a spirit amongst our sons in the labour centres that the chiefs who had gathered in Pretoria should be killed - so much so that the Government took a force of police to serve as guards. (Laughter) The reason why there was this objection is because your sons did not want us to go to Pretoria , because they wanted to take this country to themselves and create their own parliament. In Bizana even the demonstrators ran away to their own homesteads . The reason I go to the extent of explaining all these matters is because if this proclamation is repealed you will all die. All these members , even those of the Government, and you as well , will all die. (Laughter ) Remember that this present generation belongs to other people . You may think that those are your sons who are at the labour centres , but they want to kill you. I therefore say this proclamation should remain as it is because it is a good proclamation.
party that they were all threatened with sequestration proceedings , because one of them had an action against him for sequestration of his estate ? I think we would be guilty of misrepresentation if we were to do so and I think the Government party should bear that in mind whenever it makes its comments on a motion such as we have before this House today . In fact , I think we have been given an insight to the Government's resistance to the repeal of this proclamation by the hon. representative of the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni . In no uncertain terms he said to this House in his simple way: "This thing is not wanted. " He said our sons (and I suppose when he mentions our sons he would include the son of the hon. the Chief Minister ) do not want this sort of thing. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about your son?
MR. GUZANA: My son is too young to have an opinion on these matters at the present moment. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : daughters?
MR. GUZANA: He spoke about sons and not daughters . This Proclamation R.400 seeks to bolster the present constitutional situation in the Transkei . That is what he said. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He qualified it. He said these young fellows want to take over chieftainship and rule .
The debate was adjourned. The
Assembly
adjourned
Your
until 2.15 p.m.
MR. GUZANA : No , he never said so . Now if that is the position, are we going to say that the representation here is democratic, if this institution has to be bolstered up by Proclamation R.400 which reduces the rights and liberties of the individual ? Can we say that a party which enjoys a majority (and I am saying this whether it would be the governing party ofthe Opposition) can we say that party is really enjoying a majority based on the will of the electorate if we have this proclamation standing over the people and influencing their thinking and action?
AFTERTOON SESSION
The debate adjourned until 2.15 p.m. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to make a contribution to the debate on this motion. The motion seeks to request the Transkei Government to request the Republican Government to repeal Proclamation R400 . Now , Sir , Whenever this motion comes bore this House there is usually a big flutter in the Government benches , and I have always wondered whether or not the reason is that it cannot justify the continued applica ….on of Proclamation R400 in the Transkei , or is it probably because if you want to cast doubt upon the Opposition you must throw in a lot of words and a lot of steam and accuse the Opposition of a lot of things so that the attention of the people is drawn away from you? If the Government seeks to accuse the Opposition of communistic intentions or subversive intentions I say I throw this allegation back at the Government with the contempt it deserves . The argument that supporters of the Democratic Party have been charged under the Terrorism Act and that therefore the Democratic Party is prone to subversive activities is very empty and fallacious . Are we going to say that a supporter of the United Party who is convicted of murder therefore dubs the United Party as a pack of murderers ? If a supporter of the Nationalist Party is convicted of stock theft, are we going to saythe Nationalist Party is made up of stock theves ? Would we be justified in alleging against the Government
THE CHIEF MINISTER: But this proclamation has nothing to do with this House. MR. GUZANA. Anybody who comes to this House because of the votes of the people of the Transkei has to present himself to the electorate by first complying with the provisions of Proclamation R.400 , and therefore Proclamation R.400 is relevant even to the composition of this House . And if the hon. representative of the non. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni has told this House that we must bolster this institution by continuing to have Proclamation R.400 , who can say in his sound and sober mind that this is a democratic institution? If those who were concerned with the drafting and preparation and acceptance of this Constitutio.. had to be protected from the people for whom they were making the Constitution, can we say the Constitution is an embodiment of the thoughts of the people who... THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are out oforder, you are not discussing the motion.
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to another and the provision says he can do so without notice to the person concerned , and the poor subject has to comply within thirty days after service of that notice if he has not noted an appeal. Proclamation R.400 goes on further to say if he has not removed, the chief can order that his house, hut, kraal site and everything be demolished; further, thatthe chief is not liable to the individual for any damages sustained by that individual by reason of the action of the chief in demolishing that house. There shall be no interdict issued by a court of law against such order. Now, isn't that a diminution of the rights of the individual in what you allege is a democracy when there is no democracy? Is it not quite obvious that any subject of a chief who may possibly fall foul of these regulations will tend to please the chief, rather than satisfy his own conscience as far as his political convictions are concerned? Then there is a further amendment to Proclamation R.400 vesting the power of detention in the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. A person may be detained on what are known as "reasonable grounds " for believing he has done this , that and the other thing, and there is no recourse to the law courts . Is that the liberty of the individual in the Transkei ? We are not asking for licence ; we are asking for liberty even to exercise the political rights for which provision is made even in the present Constitution. Sir, the security of the State is in the hands of the Republican Government and let me say that members of the Security Branch have been very indulgent in applying the provisions of this proclamation, and they have been considerate and they have realised that there is a political climate which allow for political criticism even should though it is curtailed in the letter of the law If they themselves under this proclamation. realise that this has to be done in order to give a semblance of reality to what is existing politically in the Transkei , what Government has a right to continue the existence of the proclamation itself? The Republican Government has legislated on Communism, legislated on subversive activities , legislated on terrorism , and these enactments are all-embracive to deal with any emergency or situation which may arise .
MR. GUZANA: That is what your member said. I think the cat is out of the bag and I think we had better take it from the Government supporters.... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please . MR. GUZANA: ....that the Government says this proclamation is not wanted by the people of the Transkei, and its continued existence will only be guaranteed by continuing Proclamation R.400. Now the hon. the Minister of Education quoted some portions of the proclamation and asked the Opposition whether they were opposed to them. What he read related to the protective barbed-wire fence which is being drawn round chiefs and paramount chiefs and headmen. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And you. MR. GUZANA: I am speaking specifically on the part of this proclamation to which he made reference , and out of which he quoted . He said to the Opposition: "Do you want this? because it protects the chief, the headman and the paramount chief. " I want to know what is the matter with these paramount chiefs, these chiels, these headmen, that they should have this protective legislation to keep them in their tribal positions. Are their positions questioned by lawabiding citizens of the Transkei ? Or is it because they have been put in these positions by constitutional machinery and they do not belong where they are placed? Is it that therefore they are being opposed by their subjects and hence we have got to protect them in terms of Part 6 of Proclamation R.400 ? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Have you read (d)? MR. GUZANA: Now, let us look at the chapters and verses which were quoted by the hon. the Minister of Education : You shall not speak against the chief or the headman; you shall not criticize him; you shall not do anything which may be interpreted as undermining his position or character. You may not do , in effect, anything that he does not like , and all these "Don'ts " negate the right of the citizen in a democratic state. If you say you must not criticize a chief who is a political figure otherwise you fall foul of this provision, then you are negating or reducing the rights of an individual in a democratic state . And these chiefs have become involved in the politics ofthe Transkei. They must therefore be the object of political criticism . They should be prepared to receive it as well as give it, but because they are doubting their political positions they have got to hide behind the provisions of Proclamation R.400 in order to dominate and domineer their subjects into submission. And how often do they command their subjects in an authoritarian voice to vote one way or the other , and there is submission just because a man fears to fall foul of the provisions of this proclamation? This is just the type of legislation that entrenches a man against the wishes of his own subjects . Let us turn to the other side of the coin and see if there is anything good. Proclamation R.400 gives powers. to a chief to remove a subject from one place
THE CHIEF MINISTER: They have not legislated on terrorism in the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA: And the Republican Government has found no difficulty in dealing with persons of that character in spite of the fact that Proclamation R.400 does not apply in the rest of the Republic . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Transkei penal code?
What about the
MR. GUZANA: What difficulty would the Republican Government, would the Security Branch, would the police of the Republic have in maintaining law and order and in picking up subversive elements if this proclamation were removed? THE CHIEF MINISTER: We were in difficulties in 1960 , that is why this proclamation was applied.
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MR. GUZANA : Since 1960 several enactments have gone through the Republican Parliament dealing with situations for which Proclamation R.400 was primarily promulgated and those enactments are of legal force and effect in the Transkei also . Can we say that in effect we know what we are doing when we are divided on an issue which seeks to extend the true essence of democracy to the people of the Transkei?
THE CHAIRMAN: Are there any members on the Government side who wish to speak? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in his few remarks the hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to liberty and, fortunately, he happens to be the man who knows or ought to know all references in all the history of nations to liberty. He will agree with me that during the French Revolution Madame Corday stabbed Marat in the bath and the following day the wife was weeping and saying: Liberty, oh Liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name! It is for that reason you will appreciate my remarks when I say indeed quite a lot of crimes have been committed in the guise and in the name of liberty. The next point I would like to refer to is that, fortunately, he and many hon. members , especially on this side of the House , are very serious about the scheme on which we have embarked in the Transkei, and if it needs any further emphasis We are embarked on this let me repeat it. scheme and we shall have a government in the Transkei no matter what happens . The essential element of any government is the security ofthe State, irrespective of political inclinations . It is only recent experience that it did appear that security in the Transkei was defective and it had to be entrenched. Indeed , the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will get the commendation from this side of the House that Proclamation R.400 came under certain conditions and circumstances which may be abating. That we shall grant. In the meantime he also referred to the liberty of an individual. He will aslo agree with us that the liberty of the individual must never interfere with the liberty as a whole , and therefore some security valve somewhere has to be maintained , as would be true of any responsible government.
What is wrong THE CHIEF MINISTER : We want to preserve democracy with this? by having this proclamation. MR. GUZANA: I was interested in a broadcas by " Current Affairs " on Tuesday, dealing with Kaunda's territory , Zambia, wherein the commentator indicated that as soon as democracy was given to Zambia the ruling party began to make its political slogan: As long as you go with the ruling party, so long will you be happy. If you do otherwise, woe betide you. Members of the Opposition in Zambia are finding that they are losing their trading licences because they are opposed to the government policy. Their strongholds are being strangled by the Government which seeks to coerce them into supporting the government policy . Aren't we seeing the first indications of that tendency in the Transkei when we have men and women in the Government party seeking to perpetuate this proclamation? I can give specific examples of what has happened to members of the Demo-` cratic Party and supporters of the Democratic Party which are indicative of the tendency of this Government to usurp unto itself all powers and authority, to use them to crush them under such a proclamation as we have in Proclamation R.400. Now, I have not indulged in any villification of Government policy or members ofthe Government party. I have kept to a discussion of the motion as it stands and I have tried to show the Government party that they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by supporting the motion. How happy this Government would be if it knew that it could sleep the sleep of the dead overnight, instead of being worried by its shadows and having Proclamation R.400 encasing them all time time . Wouldn't you like to be an Opposition in this House , if it is the will of the people that you should be the Opposition, rather than continue to be the Government because you have Proclamation R.400 backing you? (Laughter)
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: So Vorster was justified in banning you? (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am sure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition would never be happy about such a remark. I shall not refer to it, but it is a little bit brash. He will agree with me that quite a lot of people did abuse the liberty that could have been given to them and sometimes it would be interesting to find out how much more restrictive this proclamation is or could be in comparison with the Suppression of Communism Act; how much more restrictive if it is compared with the Riotous Assemblies Act; how much more restrictive it would be to the Bantu Laws Amendment Act. But it became clear that in spite of the provisions in these Acts nothing could be done to save a situation which was terrible in the Transkei , and something had to be done in order to save souls, irrespective of political inclination. Mr. Chairman, I would like to remind the hon, the Leader of the Opposition of something very, very serious as far as this side of the House is concerned. In fairness to him and to some of his members , it is quite clear he is taking the Transkei situation very seriously and that he leads an alternative government in the He also takes that very seriously , Transkei. but it should be of interest to him that there are people who have declared very clearly in
THE CHIEF MINISTER: How does this proclamation back us? MR. GUZANA : I leave the matter in the hands of reasonable men and women in this House. (Laughter ) Kindly disabuse yourselves of the terror of Proclamation R.400 . Come to your senses and remove the fear of Proclamation R.400 from this territory.
THE CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jafta to reply.
I shall call upon the hon.
MR. GUZANA: Are there no more speakers? It should be one from the Government side ?
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this House that they are not taking the scheme on which we have embarked in the Transkei seriously. A serious Government must watch such . There are some members in this very group composed of some respectable men who clearly declare that as far as they are concerned the Constitution of the Transkei is not sacrosanct but it is just a piece of paper, which is a very serious statement. In no democratic state anywhere in the world could you ever say that - that you don't respect the Constitution of a land. (Interjections )
of Damocles which is hanging over the heads of the people of the Transkei. Think of the painful things which happen to the people of the Think of what the electorate says Transkei. about this proclamation. The question they are putting is : Why is this proclamation always dangling above our heads? It is a truth that cannot be denied by any member in this Assembly that that is the view of the electorate . (Interjections ) The last speaker referred to the French Revolution in France , which took place in years gone by, referring to a certain lady who murdered a man in his bath. Murder of individuals has always been and will always continue to be, but this proclamation only came into existence to meet a certain exigency . Important people and the hon. the Chief Minister among them always say there is peace reigning in the Transkei.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Let me make it clear, without any apology whatsoever and with due respect to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, that such shall be watched and will have to be. Mr. Chairman, on the other side are members who declare in the very House that as far as they are concerned the flag which ought to express the throb of the heart of any nation is a piece of paper which should be torn at any time.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Proclamation R.400.
MR. JAFTA : People who come from outside the Republic say there is peace in this country. Our radios constantly keep reporting that there is peace in our land. Has it ever occurred that in a land which is reported to be so peaceful there should also be suppression and laws ofthis nature ? The two things are inconsistent. It is like trying to mix fat and water. It is for that reason that we are appealing to you as a Government to consult the Republican authorities and request that this Proclamation R.400 should be removed. (Interjections)
OPPOSITION MEMBER: You are out oforder. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: If a man can refer to the flag of a nation in such derogatory and derisive terms , such must be watched. He has no sentimental attachment to that country and, in fact , he thinks of no good for it whatsoever. Mr. Chairman, the trouble always in any infant state is that it is always possible to have an irresponsible Opposition or to have some irresponsible members in the Opposition, and whenever a situation like that arises you will always find it is always easy for such to be instruments of a foreign power. If, therefore , we shall have men who have no respect for the consitution of that land , who have no respect for the flag of that land , who in fact will declare that as far as they are concerned they only come to the Chamber of that Government only to collect money , who will be possible instruments of some foreign nations , let us make it clear once more that such will have to be watched; and we offer no apology whatsoever. Let me assure the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that in fact the onus is on him and his henchmen. A more responsible approach to our problems in the Transkei , respectable references and allusions to our work will quicken the day when, in fact, we might have a substitute for Proclamation R.400. (Interjections) If, Sir, there is any delay it will be because of some irresponsible elements , not only in your side but anywhere in the Transkei. Those are the few comments I wanted to make , thank you, Mr. Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : reply.
That is because of
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please.
MR. JAFTA: We are making an appeal that Proclamation R.400 be removed from over our heads. You are the mouthpiece of the Transkei and you should take to the Republican Government what we say in the Transkei . This is what the people are advocating. Further, it is not right to oppress a large number of people merely to sustain the peace of a few individuals . The great majority of the people are suppressed because so much power and authority has been vested in the hands of the chiefs - the authority which will make the people to be driven out of their homes merely because so much power has been given to these few individuals . Let it be plainly understood that so long as you have this Proclamation R.400 over the Transkei whenever there is an election , if you succeed in the election it will be because of the existence of this proclamation. A motion so clear and so reasonable which has been placed before the House · is it possible it can be opposed by anyone? On that account I appeal to the Government to request the Government of the Republic to withdraw this proclamation as an appeal from the electorate of the Transkei . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I shall ask the mover to
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to reply to the debate on the motion which I have put before the House . All the members who have spoken have clearly stated their views on this matter. I merely rise to
The question was put and the words sought to be deleted in the original motion were deleted by 66 votes to 24 after a division as follows :-
appeal to the House to think calmly on this issue. Give serious consideration to this sword 305 .
NOES.
YESES .
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell . Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Siphiwa Lenford Baleni Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana TELLERS : 1. 2.
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu 306.
L.L. Mgudlwa S.K. Ndzumo
THE CHAIRMAN: I now put the question that the words "Proclamation R.400 of 1960 safeguards the internal security and peaceful administration of the Transkei and should be retained" should be substituted .
who speaks on behalf of his people must be followed by the father of the bride . It is for that reason we feel we want to put this request directly to the Republican Government that they must repeal these influx control regulations altogether . The fact of the presence of this influx control is a very painful thing , especially
The words were substituted .
to the young people who are seeking employment. We in the Tsomo area surveyed the land and the surveyed area was sufficient for the people who resided there at that time, but we forgot entirely the progeny that would follow in the years to come. However, the person who has his own allotment cannot cry too loudly because he has his land , but our children and grandchildren also want allotments and they are keen to get them, but they find it very difficult and do not know what to do in these times of famine. If nothing can be done about this , in the end people will be turned into cannibals whilst the Republican Government still has the door closed against the people who seek employment. Seeing that all the members in this Assembly know exactly what is taking place outside I shall not go into detail about this. They know of people who come up and down, seeking employment , and some who have found employment but are told to go back home and get a permit. The work- seeker is therefore compelled to go back empty-handed, knowing very well that he will go home to an empty and hungry home . It is your own children and people like yourselves who have asked me to bring the motion to this House . They are neither members of the TNIP nor the Democratic Party, but their hungry stomachs have compelled them to ask for this motion to We will see today be brought to the House. whether you are such people as give birth to your own children and then turn round to destroy them, but I have every hope that you are sympathetic parents to your own children. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The motion as amended was carried. REPEAL OF INFLUX CONTROL REGULATIONS MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, before moving I will make this request to you personally, Mr. Chairman, that I may withdraw a word in the motion and replace it with another. Instead of the word "relax" I would like to substitute "repeal " in the second line . When you have granted that request, Mr. Chairman, I can carry on with the motion. THE CHAIRMAN : Very well . MR. MNYILA : move :-
Mr. Chairman, I therefore
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to repeal the influx control regulations to enable Transkei citizens to seek work anywhere in the Republic. " Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this motion comes to you from your own sons outside the bounds of the Transkei , as well as in the reserves . This is their outcry. They are not permitted to seek employment in Johannesburg, Cape Town, Port Elizabeth or anywhere outside the Transkei . The only privilege extended to them is for them to go to the magistrate's office in their own areas and find out from there whether there is any industry or avenue of employment open to them in the Republic. In all the 26 districts comprising the Transkei you will find numbers of people who have gone to seek employment under contract coming back disappointed, whereas when they left home in the morning they were going out to find employment, trying to get away from the difficulties within their own homes and the conditions of hardship and famine . You will find workseekers going from one office to another trying to find out where they can obtain employment , because in their opinion they often think that the people responsible are the clerks in these offices who tell them that only a certain number is required at a time. Those who are unfortunate enough not to be included in the required number go back home disillusioned and dissatisfied. Some of them go back saying the clerk would not give them employment because they did not give him something in return. Whether their report is true or not, it is due to the difficulties they have to face in seeking this employment. I was very happy to discover from the address of the hon. the Chief Minister that he was taking every possible step to see that the people obtain employment. We African people know that the Chief Minister is our leader in everything
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairmán, in view of the fact that the time is rather far spent I move an adjournment until tomorrow. THE CHAIRMAN: Before that is done I will ask for a seconder to the motion. MR. H. MAFUKULA : man.
I second , Mr. Chair-
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 30th May , 1969 . FRIDAY, 30th MAY , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as it is a holiday tomorrow that is , 31st May , 1969, I have been approached by the members of this House on both sides , requesting that we adjourn at 1 p.m. today. I
concerning our life in the Transkei. He is the link between this Government and that of the Republic. According to our custom the person 307.
just want to announce that we shall adjourn at 1. p.m. and we hope that by that time the sessional allowances will be ready to be paid to members . TABLING OF DOCUMENTS THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy in English only of a bill to impose taxes on citizens of the Transkei , to provide for the deduction by employers of amounts from the remuneration of employees in respect of certain tax liabilities , to provide for the making of provisional tax payments and to provide for incidental matters . In terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963, I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the taxation proposals contemplated in the Transkei Taxation Bill, 1969 . TRANSKEI TAXATION BILL : FIRST READING THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the bill is at present only available in the English Language , the permission of the Assembly is sought in terms of the proviso to rule 98 (b) that the first and second readings be proceeded with.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE CHAIRMAN: reading?
What date for the second
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the second reading will be on Monday, 2nd day of June, 1969, or so soon thereafter.
very clear and, if possible , for the comfort of all the hon. members that we shall negotiate as far as it is possible for the early and considerable measure of relieving this situation. But, since, hon. members , these are measures over which we have no control , and they can only be relieved if we make negotiations , we must see that we negotiate properly. After all , it is common cause , I believe , that what we are after is the salvation of the work- seeker in the Republic who comes from the Transkei. We have no desire whatsoever for any political advantage as far as this issue is concerned, and when I say "we" I mean everybody as a member of this House. The labour bureau system can be described as an organized method to achieve a sound balance between available employment on the one hand and the quantity of labour on the other hand. In the prevailing circumstances and conditions it has in a way proved a success in many ways. Last year , for example , over 50,000 more workers were placed in employment than in the previous year . The Government is of opinion, however, that the system can be improved by adding to the existing facilities made available by the labour bureaux , and that to any work- seeker who wishes to proceed to a labour centre the opportunity of doing so without fear of being prosecuted as an idle or undesirable person should be made available. It is as a result of these considerations , Mr. Chairman that we feel , although we feel very strongly about this , we have to do the best we can to put the situation squarely but as properly as we can, with the express view and hope that some modicum of success will come . Thus, Mr. Chairman, with all humility we propose this amendment : That the words after the word "should" be deleted and substituted by the words "request the Republican Government to allow registered Transkeian work- seekers to proceed to any labour centre within the Republic for the purpose of seeking employment and if employed, should be granted a permit by the local authority forthwith . "
REPEAL OF INFLUX CONTROL REGULATIONS The debate was resumed. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we would like to make it clear to every member of the House that as far as this issue is concerned we are one . We would also like to go on record as having said that the influx control measures are burdensome on the African people admits of no debate whatsoever. But, Mr. Chairman, we would like to make it clear again that this is a matter that has been exercising all the authorities The influx control measures are concerned. determined by certain Acts which have been passed and are being administered by the Republican Government. The position, therefore , is clearly this - that we have no authority whatsoever to repeal such measures , neither would it be wise to say to them they must repeal these measures. It is, however , incumbent upon us that we must make such representations as will make the position to the authorities concerned as clear as ever about how we think and feel about such measures. These measures are not intended for the inhabitants of the
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. H. MAFUKULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the motion placed before the House yesterday to the effect that influx control regulations should be repealed . These words are clear and understandable. This regulation is like all other suppressive regulations against the people . Even though the Government side say they are in agreement with us on this motion, as they do not say the regulations should be repealed they are therefore not one with us. I would like to mention a few examples to show how oppressive this regulation is. When a work- seeker goes to find work in the labour centres he takes a labour contract and when he gets to the labour centre he starts work under his employer. Should there be any misunderstanding between the employer and the employee the employer is forced by law to send the employee back home. Should the employee find work elsewhere he is compelled to remain with his employer until his contract expires .
Transkei only. They are intended for all people who come from all the various territories that surround the Republic of South Africa. It is, however, clear and we would like to make it 308.
concerns both our Transkeian masses and the African population in the Republic as a whole. When Jesus Christ addressed his disciples on the Mount, He said unto them : You are the salt of the earth and if the salt loses its salinity you will be trampled upon. I can assure the hon. members of this House that they have not lost their salinity in their combined effort against this influx control regulation. It is most significant that we most prominent members of this House have joined forces with you in our appeal and cry to the Republican Government, requesting the Government to allow our citizens to seek work freely anywhere in the Republic. That in itself exposes their hollow accusation that the governing party is responsible for the implementation of these regulations . We have sufficient evidence to the effect that people have had to come home from the Republic before they wanted to come back home, because they are limited. The firms themselves have expressed a desire to have these people back because of the experience they have earned during the period of their service , but because of the application of these influx control regulations these people are not able to return to the firm. The Western Province particularly is an attraction to our men because of the
That is a result of this regulation. All these things cause misunderstanding between the employer and employee and hatred follows this misunderstanding . We would like to stress that it is our feeling that this regulation should be repealed as it is very oppressive to the people. One other reason why we feel as we do is that in the labour centres there are large buses which collect all the people in these centres who have gone there without a permit. These buses run from early in the morning until late evening searching for such people in the towns. Should anyone unfortunately forget his reference book at home , such a person is immediately arrested and locked up. The same bus will go to the places where the labourers sleep and the police kick upon the door and walk into the sleeping quarters of the labourers demanding their reference books . The police who do this do not mind whether you have your wife with you in the room and the people feel this is like being cast out into the desert. This all results from the influx control regulations . Should you be found in the street without your reference book, according to law you are given time to produce it, failing which they may ring your employer. The police don't do that and this is another result of influx control regulations. There are women whose husbands are employed in the labour centres and as a result of these regulations the women cannot visit their husbands. The Republican Government does not make regulations governing such womenfolk. As we know, a man must live with his own wife . A man and his wife must bring up their children in the manner they think fit , but this is impossible under these regulations . Should it happen that a wife is permitted to visit her husband she is given a limited time only to be with him. Even if the husband and wife do not wish the wife to return home, she is compelled to do so after a certain period . It is for that reason that we feel this law should be repealed , as it is not in the interests of the African people. Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of the Interior says they are not responsible for the promulgation of this Act but that it is the Republican Government. He also says this law affects all the people in and outside the Republic. However, we in the Transkei feel we are one with the Republic and we cannot be treated on the same basis as those outside the Republic. The Republic is our home and the regulations should be made to suit us as members of the Republic. Today we feel we should not be compared with the people from Portuguese East Africa. We would like the hon. the Minister of the Interior to consult with the Republican Government and place before them the fact that the Transkei is suffering from famine. Because of this famine the number of "tsotsis" has increased, because this law prevents the young men from seeking work where they may find it. If a person is hungry he has no shame and all the African people have lost all sense of shame and self- respect. With these words , Mr. Chairman, I stand to support the motion as it stands .
relatively high wages that are paid there . However, the application of the influx control regulations results in our people suffering despicable and indescribable humiliations such as being mauled by police dogs which are let loose on them . Some employers correspond direct with their previous employees , expressing the wish to accept them, but the necessary permit has not been issued by the labour bureau. In the past a worker in a company used to have his reference book endorsed - I quote: " On leave for a stipulated number of weeks " and at the expiration of that period he would be allowed to go back to any centre and work for the same employers. Today the position has been changed. It is evident that there are more jobs available in the Republic than we are made to believe . While employers are prepared to employ more men in the labour centres the Government limits the numbers employed by each employer. Anybody will appreciate that no man will work for only nine months and be able to meet the needs of his family. How are these people expected to educate their children, clothe themselves and their wives ? Coming to you members of the Opposition, I told you that you are telling a lie. I just want to appeal to you to stop telling the people that the Government party is implementing these regulations. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MATANZIMA: It is needless to tell you that these regulations were passed long before the Transkei Government was implemented. You must write letters to employers like we do in the Cofimvaba district. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise in support of this motion . I am particularly pleased that I should speak after the hon. Chief Mtet'uvumile Matanzima . The hardships resulting from influx control are many.
Mr. Chairman CHIEF M. MATANZIMA : and hon. members , the matter at issue is one of grave concern and a major problem that
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A person leaves home and has a number of difficulties facing him. He takes a contract and goes to Johannesburg. Having arrived and started working in the firm with which he signed a contract, because these factories or firms have different wage levels he discovers that there is employment where there are other employees from the area from which he came and where
one purpose only and that is to kill the African people. At the time when we were seeking employment, there was no shortage of work. Whoever wished to went to work under contract. Others went solely on their own. Others would go under contract to the NRC to look for employment, and people found work and would come back home when they wished to. This influx
he will get a better wage than where he is presently employed . He finds employment, with the help of friends , which is better paid and he communicates with the second firm and they agree to take him into service. He is compelled then to return from his first firm to the Transkei as he cannot get a permit direct from the first employer to the second unless he comes home. Then, having come back home , he finds when he tries to get a permit at the office that the labour bureau comes into it. Should there be two work- seekers and No. 2 pays a higher fee than No. 1, then No. 2 is preferred to No. 1. When the work- seeker finally gets to his new employment, he finds the employer could not wait so long and has taken someone else . Mr. Chairman, I can say that this is a very important motion which affects the whole of the African population of the Transkei . Think of a single young man whose parents are both old and cannot work any more . He takes a contract and has to pay a bribe.
control is a bad thing and has a bad effect on family life, because when you are under contract there is no permit for your wife to go and visit you . This results in the fact that when a husnad is away and cannot have his wife with him, It would be illegitimate children are born. different if the wives could visit their husbands when they go to work. So the difficulty placed on a husband seeking employment is also placed on the wife because in some places a man may get only one month's leave to come back home. What husband would be satisfied with living only one month with his wife when he has been away for six to nine months? Why does the Transkei Government not consult with the Republican Government about these things , especially as the Republican Government does not do these things A White workto the White work- seekers . seeker, whether in Pretoria, Johannesburg or Cape Town, can easily go there with his wife . Why must we allow the Republican Government to make regulations which bring about illegitimate children? ( Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : know all that.
We
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please.
When he gets to the labour MR. KUTU: centre he is employed under contract for, say, six months and after six months you will find you have not made even the slightest financial gain and have not solved any of the problems that are facing you at home , such as finding food for the family, clothing them and paying for their education . There is another painful
MR. KUTU : Why does it separate husband and wife so that the wives cannot visit their husbands? Why do you agree to such a thing? (Interjections) If you don't agree to such a measure , let us agree to ask for these regulations to be repealed by the Republican Government. Let us unanimously agree if we do not want any illegitimate children in our families. (Interjections)
aspect under this regulation. Say I am forced to leave home as a result of severe famine I go to the work centre on and difficulties. my own to seek employment and meet employers who are looking for labourers and they employ The police squads go round the labour me. centres and arrest me while in employment, and perhaps I am sentenced to three or four After that term of months ' imprisonment. imprisonment I am taken straight to the railway station and accompanied back home by an escort, leaving all my clothes , all the money I had earned and all my property and am driven back home to the Transkei . Whatever wages I had earned are left behind and I get back home without a penny in my hand, and a prisoner. In this Assembly I had a list of names of people who were arrested in the manner I have described. (Interjections ) I find that the Government has done nothing about those people to enable them to go back to the labour centre . All the people I mentioned were arrested while in employment. While they were locked up they were so beaten that one of them actually had a broken arm. I wonder how people who have children of their own regard an experience like that I have just explained. I would like to know what you would feel if among such prisoners there was a son of your own. How painful it would be to you. Mr. Chairman, hon. members , influx control has
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . Hon. member, I think you have exhausted yourself now. I think you should sit down. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. Influx control was introduced to enable the people to go to the mines as well as to seek employment on the farms and also to support the people who live in municipal locations , such as the hon. Mr. Mnyani and Mr. Raziya, because the mines and the farms pay very low wages . The industrial firms pay a higher wage . On that account the people leave the mines and farms and go to the factories in the towns as it is proper for a person to sell his labour to the best advantage . The people who live in the municipal areas therefore are responsible for the promulgation of this regulation , through their Advisory Board . Their children, however, are lazy and do not want to work. It follows then that the people from the rural areas come to seek employment and find it in these municipal areas . It is discovered that these people are hard workers and the children born in municipal areas work intermittently only for a short time and then they leave , but their fathers pre-
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control regulations here. It is on that account that I appeal to everybody to support the amendby the hon. Minister as this will help. This leads to a great deal of theft by these people who take bribes from our children who promise they will find employment for them, which they never find. When a person is in difficulties he accepts anything. I appeal to you , therefore, to support this amendment, but if you follow the motion as it stands you will not succeed.
tend to be blind to this fact and they say their children are not being offered employment. As a result, therefore , the Advisory Board asked the Government to promulgate this influx control regulation because they maintain that they are permanent residents of these areas and they do not have to go back like the people from the reserves . Why should they employ outside labour and leave us who live with you in the municipal areas? I am sorry the Opposition members do not support the amendment. The Government is not like a knife which is sharp only on one side of the blade. The Government is like a sword, sharp on both sides. This law, therefore, is not made only for the Transkei people, but for everybody throughout the Republic. You must understand that the people who asked for this law stand together. They are not like ourselves who are divided into different camps. As we are now, we shall not achieve anything . I would like to say to you that you should note that the Transkei is a labour pool. You know how long we have lived in the Transkei under the hardship of famine such as we have now. In the sugar plantations and in the mines you find only Transkei labourers, and also on the farms , and you will find there are very few in the work centres because they go to work under labour contracts. Even those who follow this method of finding employment are misled by you, the Opposition members such as the hon. Mr. Kutu, who encourages people to go and seek employment in Johannesburg without obtaining a permit. That leads to people being arrested under this regulation. He did not attend to what the hon. the Minister of the Interior said when he said that whoever goes to seek employment must leave here with a permit from his tribal authority. That makes it possible for any labourseeker to avoid being arrested anywhere , but if you think the Government will follow the lines you suggest, I tell you you will not succeed . To repeal a law is not a small matter. A man who has been employed for ten to fifteen years is entitled to live in a municipal area, and such a person is permitted to live with his wife, but a person who has been in these areas for a shorter period is not permitted. This is a regulation affecting all urban areas. Very many people of the Transkei break the law intentionally because they break the law by not getting a permit from anybody. Even though the hon. the Minister of the Interior mentions that he will communicate with the Republican Government I know they will break the regulations and not have permits . There are no people more cruel than the people who live in urban areas because they have no chief. They are just like wild jackals or like dogs which, when they have found something, say it belongs to them and not to their master. Because of that they are responsible for all these hardships onthe people . They even go to the extent of saying: "Why bring your wife here when we have our daughters here to live with you? If you want a room to live in, or a house , we will give you one of our daughters. " They are responsible for all these influx control regulations and it surprises me that hon. members such as Mr. Mnyani and Mr. Raziya should be supporting such a motion as this before the Even at the location the people are House. asked if they have a permit. We have influx
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I associate myself withthe mover of the motion. Much has been said in connection with this matter and they have been repeating what has already been said. I will therefore We are discussing not be lengthy on this. influx control regulations which enslave the Black man so that he becomes a slave to all nations. Even an Indian and a Coloured are of a higher standing than a Black man. They are people who came to this country to look for work and this land did not belong to them. When influx control is exercised upon women you will find it has brought down the standard of a Black person. When an African woman goes up to Johannesburg and goes to Soweto....
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, I think you should stress other points. That point has already been mentioned by other speakers. Bring in some new ideas . MR. NKOSIYANE : myself. THE CHAIRMAN: same thing.
I am going to explain
No, we cannot repeat the
MR. NKOSIYANE : The woman who is going to stay in the location....
THE CHAIRMAN: No, Ithink you have nothing to say. You may sit down. MR. NKOSIYANE :
Please allow me to end.
I say you have nothing THE CHAIRMAN : new to say. Please sit down. CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand in support of the motion and I object to the amendment. These regulations exist in the Republic and I will explain that the application of influx control was not used in terms of the law since the establishment of the Transkei Government. (Interjections) Whenthe members of the Government went through the location they enforced the application of this influx control. In fact, when the hon. the Chief Minister was in Butterworth he encouraged influx control. He said at a meeting that in the Transkei we are trying means to get employment for the people in the Republic. I convened that meeting on his behalf and there was a great number of women in attendance . He then expressed the opinion that the husbands of the women would return from those labour centres whether it be Cape Town, Johannesburg, and so on, and leave the concubines who stayed with them in those centres and go back to their wives . This made the wives happy. As a result of 311 .
these regulations the people in Fingoland flock to the divorce courts and the children cannot now be controlled. That has also increased the number of house -breakers . One hon. member said people should not say that this law has been introduced by the people of the Transkei. A few days ago someone came in through this door looking for work, because if anybody produces his reference book in those labour centres , he is just told to go back to the Transkei. Mr. Chairman, we appeal to the hon. members on that side to ask the Government to repeal these regulations . They should not go round these factories asking for work for these people, but should approach the Republican Government. Even in the Transkei, particularly in the municipal location , passes are being demanded from people. I do not know where these Transkei citizens will be able to go.
asthma . Asthma is incurable and you can only get medicine to relieve it. I say we must get rid of this disease and ask the Republican Government to repeal these regulations . I am not going to go further, Mr. Chairman, because I will be wasting your time. I think that this disease will be got rid of in order to cure people . I put my motion and I hope it will be supported. THE CHAIRMAN : The question before the House is whether the words after the word "should" be deleted , as proposed in the amendment. The words were deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment. The motion as amended was carried . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 2nd June , 1969.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I do not know whether it is only my own feeling that this matter has been thrashed out , or whether you wish to go on?
MONDAY, 2nd JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall therefore call upon the mover to reply.
OBITUARY MR . C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I was happy to learn that all the members are much concerned about this motion and on that account I will not be lengthy. Firstly, before I speak at length, I must find out why the Republican Government introduced influx control. I think it is on account of a complaint made by the Chamber of Mines and by the farmers. The Chamber of Mines asked that all the people who were lying down next to their stock kraals should go to work. Since the introduction of influx control the NRC never went round the locations slaughtering cattle and feasting the people and there has been no demand from Nevertheless , the farmers for employees . influx control was introduced and the Republican Government accepted it and put it into effect. Today we are making a request that the Republican Government finds it difficult to grant, because the Government gets an advantage out of this because the contractor pays a fee of R1 for each labourer . When you take into account the multitudes who go to the mines , how much should be paid to the Government by the Chamber of Mines ? Take into account the large number of employees who have been taken into employment by the farms . Now the Government finds it difficult to repeal this law after making such gains . Would you do so ? You would not , even if somebody begged you to do it, and yet there is a certain Biblical phrase which says : Ask and it shall be given to you. As we see eye to eye on this motion, I wish to say that some years ago a lot of cattle died and those cattle stopped dying when they were inoculated . We received injections a few days ago against Hong Kong 'flu so that we should not die. Because of this starvation some sort of injection should be introduced against influx control . That is our request to the Government and that is what this motion seeks . The amendment merely says we should just rub this sore place . This is not
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is with deep sorrow that I have to confirm a report which was made over the air and in the paper this morning, about the death of the illustrious son of South Africa, Senator Tom Naude , the President of the Senate of the Republic of South Africa , who died in Cape Town at Groote Schuur Hospital on Saturday, 31st May, 1969 , at the age of 80. A veteran politician and statesman , a man who has lived to see South Africa attain the highest political state of maturity from the days of colonialism , has left his fatherland with a heritage of intellectual stability in the pages of history. At one time the Acting State President, he assumed a position of great respect amongst the Bantu people of South Africa . Although not personally known to us, the history of his political career brings him closer and closer to our hearts and a picture of him remains vividly in our minds . The saying that " Man proposes but God disposes" can be fittingly repeated in the case of this honourable gentleman. The whole of South Africa , including the Transkei , will mourn the death of this man of highest integrity in the political life of our country. I wish to move an unopposed motion that this House sends a telegram of sympathy and condolence to the family of the Thank you, Mr. late Senator Tom Naude . Chairman . MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate this side of the House with the words expressed by the hon. the Chief Minister as regards this sad occurrence which has taken place . Senator Naude had, during the time of the Anglo- Boer War , I have no doubt already formed an opinion . When the Union of South Africa came into existence he had a hand in that. During his lifetime we have had two important world wars , during which 312.
he no doubt played his part. In the growth of the country of South Africa which has givenbirth to this child, the Transkei , he also extended helping hand. As we have been told, he was a man held in high esteem both in the political and general life of South Africa. In associating ourselves with the expressions of the hon. the Chief Minister, we would like to say how much we sympathize with his family inthis said occurrence .
(a) The incomes of man and wife are not thrown together. The reason is obvious. Customary unions do not have to be registered and tax evasion would be difficult to control. We must keep our system as uncomplicated as possible or else administration could become too involved and costly.
(b) Unsold livestock and agricultural produce are not taxable. Again the deciding factor was administrative problems. The term "remuneration" has been defined so as to allow that in natura benefits can be excluded from income.
The Assembly stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Senator Naude. NOTICE OF BILL THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that tomorrow, 3rd June , 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkei Agriculture Development Act, 1966 , (Act No. 10 of 1966) in order to provide , inter alia, for -
Clauses 2 to 4 provide for the administration and require no elucidation. Clause 5 provides for the levying of general and local tax. Clause 6. This clause lays down the tariffs for general tax. It will be observed that there is no longer any differentiation between males and females . There is little that can be said in defence of retaining different tariffs for the two sexes which would in any case complicate the operation of a P.A.Y.E. system.
(a) the proper control of fires in the case of veld burning; and (b) improved facilities for assistance to farmers in the breeding of livestock. SECOND
Clause 7. Local Tax is being retained on an unchanged basis but because the Bantu Taxation and Development Act of 1925 is being repealed it is necessary to re-enact the provisions relating to this tax in our own legislation.
READING : TRANSKEI TAXATION BILL, 1969
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and honourable members ,
Clause 8. A taxpayer who does not settle his tax liability by means of employees tax or provisional tax payments will, in terms of this Clause , have to furnish returns of income.
I have on two occasions provided this Assembly with information regarding the aims and effects of this Bill, viz. in my budget statement when the new taxation system was announced and in my subsequent speech, during the Committee of Ways and Means , when I amplified my earlier remarks.
Clause 9 will enable a receiver or assessing officer to obtain information from employers, agents , landowners , etc. regarding earnings and other income received by or accruing to an employee , occupier of land, etc. This represents a re-enactment of existing provisions.
The Bill has been available to members long enough now for a detailed study to have been made of its contents and implications and Itrust that after I have given a seriatum exposition of the various clauses there will not be any unnecessary debating especially not of those aspects which were fully debated before in Committee of the whole Assembly.
Clause 10 provides for assessments on the existing basis . Clause 11 states where and when taxes shall be paid.
Clause 12.
Extension of time can be granted.
The Bill merely gives effect to what has already been approved in principle . The legal phraseology is not always easily understood and for the benefit of those who are not conversant in this regard allow me now to deal with each Clause separately .
Clause 13. Existing provisions for the granting of exemptions viz.
Clause 1. Generally the definitions in this clause are repetitions of provisions in the existing Act with suitable additions in respect of P.A.Y.E. The P.A.Y.E. system is basically the same as for Income Tax and the same terms have been used .
(b) indigency coupled with the inability to earn;
The term " taxable income" is as defined in section 2 bis of the Bantu Taxation and Development Act of 1925 which means that it is almost the same as for the Income Tax Act of 1962 with two notable exceptions , viz.
Repetition of existing provision Clause 14. authorising certain officers to request proof of payment, extension or exemption in respect of the basic tax. It provides also for arrests and releases in certain circumstances .
(a) permanent exemption from paying the basic R2.50 for those attaining the age of 65;
(c) regular study coupled with lack of income .
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ment fall away . As from the 1st March , 1970 the new taxes will become effective . The basic tax of R2.50 will become due at the beginning of March, and payable before the 1st June each year . The additional general tax will also be payable with effect from the 1st March , 1970 , and be collected either monthly in terms of the P.A.Y.E. system or six monthly in the form of provisional payments .
Clause 15 makes possible the deduction from wages of arrears in basic tax. Clause 16. Provision for refunds of overpayments subject to certain conditions . No refunds will be made of employees ' tax correctly calculated at the time the deduction and payment is made or of provisional tax, unless the Secretary is satisfied that the circumstances of the case warrant a refund.
The effect of this clause will be inter alia that no additional general tax will be payable on income which was received or accrued during the period 1st March, 1970 , the Income Tax Act will no longer apply to Bantu persons including Transkei citizens .
Clause 17. Taxes and penalties payable in terms of the Act are debts owing to the Government and by making section 91 of the Income Tax Act apply mutatis mutandis such debt may be collected as if a civil judgement had been given in favour of the Secretary for the amount involved. The existing provision whereby warrant of execution or writ may be given for recovery of arrear tax have been retained.
Schedule. This provides for the repeal of the Bantu Taxation and Development Act, 1925 , and all the provisions embodied in various subsequent Acts amending or amplifying that Act in so far as matters are concerned which now fall away or are consolidated in the Bill before the Assembly.
Clauses 18 to 39. Chapter III has been drafted on the lines of Schedule 4 of the Income Tax Act, 1962 , and provides (a ) for deductions by employers from remuneration in respect of employees ' tax and for paying over such amounts to the Government and (b) for the payment of provisional tax by persons who derive , by way of income, any amount which is not remuneration and (c ) for other incidental matters .
Mr. Chairman, the system of taxation as envisaged in the Bill will probably not provide the answer to every problem which may arise and the Act will no doubt have to be amended later in the light of experience gained. My purpose, as I said before , was to keep the administration as simple as possible especially in view of illiteracy which still exists amongst our citizens and the time and cost which would be involved if complicated returns have to be furnished by taxpayers and employers. Costs of administration could rise out of all proportion to the tax yield . It should be borne in mind that the additional general tax , even under the present Act , represents approximately 1/12th of the total general tax collected and that as incomes increase and more people become liable for additional general tax the paper work will increase . I repeat, we cannot yet cope with more sophisticated tax laws . Returns , asessments and the P.A.Y.E. procedure must be as uncomplicated as possible .
Clause 40. Offences in connection with the use of receipts and certificates and the refusal to provide information for purposes of the Act, are set forth and penalties provided . Clause 41. Certain presumptions are provided for as these are essential , especially in legislation on taxation. Clause 42. The matters in connection with which the Minister may make regulations are set out in this clause . Clause 43. This clause re-enacts , with some amendments , the existing provisions of the Bantu Taxation and Development Act, 1925 , which can be used for recovery of rent and other moneys due to the Government in respect of the occupation of land. I should explain here that the Republican Parliament will legislate in order to extend the application of the P.A.Y.E. system in the rest of the Republic to cover also taxes due to the Transkeian Revenue Fund. This was one reason why it was found advisable to align our tax tariffs with those of the Republican Government - there is thus no necessity for employers to distinguish between Transkei citizens and other Bantu persons when making P.A.Y.E. deductions .
I wish to express in advance my thanks to the thousands of employers who will be involved in applying the new P.A.Y.E. system thoughout the Republic. I am sure there will be problems cropping up from time to time but I am equally sure that with the co-operation of the public and the Republican authorities solutions will always be found.
I move, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Chairman, I second.
Clause 44. Existing taxation laws are repealed . More details will be provided when the Schedule is dealt with.
Mr.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman , while I cannot say I stand in opposition to this bill , I yet wish to make a few observations in this connection. I am particularly attracted by the sentence read by the hon. Minister to the effect that the system of taxation as envisaged in the bill will probably not provide the answer to every problem which may arise and the Act will no doubt have to be amended later in the light of experience gained. The hon. the Chief
Clause 45. The existing Act is being repealed with effect from 1st January, 1970 , with the result that the taxes which would normally have become due and payable on the 1st January, 1970 i.e. the basic general tax for the 1970 calendar year and the additional general tax based on income for the 1968/69 year of assess314.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where have
Minister at one stage referred us to a report which had been tabled by certain commission to investigate the question of Native taxation in South Africa. Unfortunately, I was not able to lay my hands on that report, not from want of trying but I was told it was unfortunately confidential. I was appalled by that. I wonder if the hon. the Chief Minister has seen the report? I wonder if the Cabinet have seen that report, one and all, individually and severally? Before embarking on a system like this I should have been happier if the hon. Minister had tabled that report .
MR. MADIKIZELA: In any state where have you seen a government appointing a commission to....
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I tell you the commission was not appointed by us.
It is not a
MR. MADIKIZELA: It is very unfortunate that we have not seen that report, because I am expecting to pay taxes and the people I represent have to pay taxes as well.
It concerns this House .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They are paying anyway .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : report of this House. MR. MADIKIZELA:
you seen that in any country, where tax proposals are taken back to the country?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But the report belongs to the Republican Government.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I do not wish to reply to the remarks that have been made by the hon. member for Ngqeleni , because he owned up from the very onset that he was speaking from downright ignorance of the whole position. He told us that there was a report which he mentioned, and he said he wondered if the hon. the Chief Minister knows about the report, the hon. members of the Cabinet know about the report, the hon. members of the House know about the report. I would only advise him that if he is ignorant of things he must not surmise that other people are also ignorant. In any event, this bill has been mentioned on several occasions by the hon. the Minister of Finance and it was a duty incumbent upon the hon. members of the House to have made a thorough study ofthe whole situation and the whole position.
MR. MADIKIZELA: The hon. Minister should have made it possible for us to have an idea of the findings and recommendations of this commission. It is as if we are buying a pig in a poke now. The figure of R2-50 basic tax how has it been come by? There is a sliding scale portrayed in the bill - how has that been arrived at? We are having the opportunity to legislate on our own taxation and when we do so we should not take a leap in the dark. I am the last man to suggest any Government could go on with its services without a system of taxation, but I feel such a system must be an equitable one. The history of Native taxation in South Africa is along these lines · you are a Native , you are 18 years old, you are fit and able-bodied, therefore you are taxable. You are a Native , you are married, therefore you are You are a Native , you are lazy, taxable . therefore you must be induced to go to work. It is as simple as that, and the word writ in large letters in history is: Inequitable . The hon. the Minister of Finance has repeatedly addressed himself to us to the effect that there is a great deal of tax evasion in the Transkei. He went so far as to say that the average citizen of the Transkei is owing taxes for a period of five years. That is a serious state of affairs really, and the tax evasion is it tax evasion or is it inability to pay the taxes? Thank goodness it I believe the Transkei is not tax aversion. citizen has shown himself willing to pay his taxes . Voluntarily he has taxed himself in order to put up a school in his area; voluntarily he has taxed himself in order to put up a church building, and he has done that out of poor earnings . That is why I feel that in the five years of the government of the Transkei they should at least have appointed a commission to go into the question of Native taxation and into the whole effect of economic affairs in South Africa . The impression I have is that the hon. the Minister of Finance is himself not satisfied with the state of affairs as they are , hence the sentence I It is, shall I say, quoted from his speech. unfortunate that we have among us as members of this Assembly aslo the chiefs , because were it not so I would be appealing to the hon. Minister to allow us to take this matter back to our people .
MR. MADIKIZELA: I made an effort and was told the report was confidential . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The hon. the Minister of Finance has mentioned that nothing was ever perfected in one day. MR.
MADIKIZELA:
I agree
with that.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I did not say you did not agree - and that as we go on we see difficulties and as we see difficulties we come up with amendments to correct and to try to perfect. I, however , feel that this whole House, if at all we are interested in the welfare of our people, will appreciate the fact that on the ordinary lowest- income people a relief has been made as far as taxation is concerned. The ordinary man has been paying up to 1970 R3-50 per year, and from next year that will be reduced to R2-50 . I wonder if anybody will stand up and want to know what considerations were taken into cognizance when that reduction was made? (Interejections) We are interested in the reduction, not in the consideration of anything. I say the taxation of the lowest income group as from next year will be reduced from R3-50 to R2-50 . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Yes, but who did it? 315.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Never mind who did it, you nincompoop. You always tell me a lot of nonsense.
Seeing that a large number of our womenfolk are unemployed and not income -earning , how will the tax be determined? Further , you referred to the fact that African marriages are customary unions and are therefore not recorded , and that therefore it is not possible to decide how to tax those people. Following that argument, I would like it to be noted that there are among the African people those who have contracted marriages in community of property and ANC . How will they be taxed ? I would like clarification on that point. I would like further clarification on how an employer who will make deductions from the earnings of his employee will carry out this procedure . We mention these points particularly because we are not too clear about the whole procedure . Under Clause 8 it is stated that a person who has not paid his tax will have to say how much he earns. We would like all these things to be made very clear to us . The fact that the general tax has been reduced from R3-50 to R2-50 fills us all with satisfaction and we are very grateful for that. What we would like the Government officials and Cabinet Ministers to take note of and investigate properly is the fact that the people who do not pay their taxes are not paying it not because they do not want to, but because they are not able to meet the tax demands . It is nevertheless true that there are people who avoid paying taxes even though they are able to meet their tax requirements .
CHIEF NDAMASE: The Republican Government has done it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Never mind that. The Transkei Government was entitled to ask the people to pay more taxes. OPPOSITION MEMBER: are doing.
That is what they
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is less from R3-50 to R2-50 . (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Iknow you would be very interested to see people not paying any taxes . MR. B.S. MNYANI: What about those who are not working ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes, and because you are not working you would fall under that lot. Now, Mr. Chairman, in the past the income-earning people were required to pay either additional tax or income tax, and in doing so the amount to be paid by every individual was the highest amount of the two, and I think we should be thankful that in drawing up this bill a flat rate has been prepared. In fact, we people who have been paying income tax feel that according to this we shall pay much less than we paid before and that will be found by anybody who has been paying income tax . It will be found that that person will pay according to this much less than he has been paying. Now, if you find yourself paying less than you have been paying I cannot understand how a person can start saying what factors have been taken cognizance of to make him pay less than he was paying before. (Interjections) Now, as the speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance has rightly stated, while we are proceeding towards assisting to alleviate the burden upon our people , we must have something on which to start and on which to work. I don't know whether the hon. member from Ngqeleni meant that a commission should be appointed and that in the meantime no relief be made upon the people ? Now, the position as I see it in this bill is something that will be interim, and as we see certain difficulties we shall continually improve on the difficulties and I feel that this House should support the principle of this bill.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They are in the majority. MR. JAFTA: I am very doubtful , however , to believe that those people are in the majority. To my knowledge there are invalids and sick people who are still expected to pay their taxes, though they are unable to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But they can apply for exemption. MR. JAFTA: As regards the fact that they must make application, we know that they apply to be relieved of the taxes , but these applications pile up in the offices and in the meantime the tax due by them mounts up. It is on that account that I am asking that a thorough investigation be made and people who are unable to pay their taxes must not be made taxable . These are the few points I wished to place before the House . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , with all due respect I am inclined to say to a certain extent some of the members would just like to contribute to the debate even though things appear as clear as crystal . It was as if the hon. the Minister of Finance knew from the very onset the likely queries and questions that might be put as far as this bill is concerned, and he therefore
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA: members , I rise to say a few words on this taxation bill. It is clear that the bill has been put before us before it has been cleared of certain intricacies which have not been solved. Even though that is so, it is being explained to us that later steps will be taken to put these I would like to refer to this taxation right. in connection with the mention that the income of the husband and wife will be taxed separately.
adopted the rare skill of putting the questions and answers as far as this bill was concerned , perhaps to make it clear or apparent that it was a technical subject which cannot be understood by everybody. Now, as I say, to our surprise there are certain queries to which answers There are certain have already been given. basic principles as far as taxation is concerned.
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OPPOSITION MEMBER : chiefs ?
One is that the people taxing the others and those who are being taxed are, in fact, citizens of that particular land and must be responsible enough to know the necessity to tax and the necessity to be taxed. (Interjections ) And the Government of the day must see that the taxation that is imposed at that particular time is fair and equitable in the circumstances .
What about the
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Infact, perhaps you are perfectly correct and I should include the hon. chiefs , although I did say members of Parliament, but to make it clearer I am including them. The last point I would like to put is this: After all , I am inclined to think that the talk that has been going on from members on the other side was intended as in interim period so that, in their utter confusion as far as I am concerned, they could go on until the hon. the Leader of the Opposition turned up . (Laughter) I want to assure you that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and some of the hon. members on your side have actually understood this as it should be understood, but not the man who stood up for him while he was out, so much that he had to say the recommendations on taxation must be taken to tribal meetings . The last point is this –- that we might have to take people like the hon. member for Umtata very seriously , especially when it comes to this question. Just imagine what confusion there could be if we did not follow or work hand in hand as far as the taxation in the Republic and the Transkei were.concerned . With due respect, Mr. Chairman, I am inclined to believe and to take him very seriously that if there is a thing that would please him it is the utter financial confusion that would ensue, and what a heyday it would be for him ! Whenever there is co-operation, whenever there is mutual understanding between the Transkei Government and the Republican Government, the hon. member for Umtata always says we are toeing the line and being bullied because he would like to see a bit of confusion. We will wait for it....
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Is it fair and equitable to tax a person who is not working? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: That has been done. Mr. Chairman, let me go to the next point. It counts as an interesting surprise and I am inclined to think at times that the queries that are being put are more superficial and intended to be a little more dramatic than accurate. For your information, Mr. Chairman, I was addressing the biggest gathering you could ever think of this Saturday and I got such an ovation you would have been drowned in your ears if you had heard it. I am saying this is interesting because one of these items where we must remain an integral part of the Republic of South Africa is where it comes to financial implications of running the Republic and the Transkei. The whole economy we have to follow is not only part and parcel of the economy of South Africa, it is the economy of South Africa. The whole currency is not part and parcel of it, it is the currency of South Africa. The greater percentage of work we can give to the Transkei people has to be found in the Republic of South Africa. (Interjections) Now, the complications I have referred to are such that we have to be part of the Republic of South Africa as far as the financial complications are concerned. The whole matter, as the hon. member for Ngqeleni has said, has been gone into by financial experts and whilst we are studying it (and, by the way, we have been given the chance to study it) it would be stupid on the part of anybody to refuse it when the experts have decided it should be imposed . I do not know for what good purpose it should be refused as far as the Transkei is concerned, but I will give you the chance to tell me that. The Transkei Government, a responsible Government, had no alternative but it was only too thankful to deal with the situation as it has Idealt with it and we shall continue to do so for the good order of the Transkei . (Interjections)
MEMBER: Is he a "verkrampte" ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The people usually refer to "verkramptes " and "verligtes " because they don't know what they are talking about, but if anyone thinks that the differences between the "verkramptes " and "verligtes " are to the benefit of the DP, you will have to go back to school . In conclusion we would like to assure the hon. members on the other side who are serious and understanding that the best has been done in the circumstances , and whatever recommendations have been made they have been made for the benefit of the ordinary man in the Transkei , and let us agree that the best has been done. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Now, there was a suggestion that this matter might have been taken to the people first. I am sure I have the greatest respect for the hon. member for Ngqeleni and I think what has been suggested is what we shall remember and will be referred to as a capital joke of the House , and as he has a wonderful sense of humour I think I had better leave that as it is. Perhaps to educate the hon. member for Qumbu, we want to assure him that, to the surprise of everybody , the people who have been paying their taxes very well and readily, comparatively speaking, are the people who are supposed to be having no money, and the clerks , members of the teaching profession, members of Parliament, what do you think? They are the ones who are in arrears . (Laughter)
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is a pity that we must talk on a subject such as this one before us . It is true that the system of taxation being followed now is the correct system - namely, to tax people according to their incomes. We must also praise them for reducing the general tax by R1. This was a system which is unacceptable to civilized countries , taxing a person not according to his income but at a flat rate , especially in relation to the African people who are known generally to be the poorest in the world. We were of opinion that as regards this general levy they were going to make a
317 .
However, we do not wish it to be oppressive In this regard the people's on the people. money will be deducted even when they have not refused to pay their taxes .
reduction, but we do not see any reduction in that respect and we appeal that a reduction be made. There is a point made to the effect that seeing the African marriages are not registered like the European marriages are, it is difficult for them to impose taxes on Bantu in the same manner as Europeans. To my mind that does not present any difficulty because any married person is known in all the government offices to be married. How can they hide it, because even in the reference books married or unmarried status is indicated? We cannot regard these customary unions as making it difficult to impose taxes on Africans in the same way as on Europeans . If we look at page 6 of the Taxation Bill it is clear that in certain cases people pay up to about 20 per cent of their income. To make this clear , look at the end, where it shows the tax on R20,000 to be R5,022 - 72. Further, there will be a rise of R18 for each completed amount of R30 by which the taxable income increases , which means that over and above the 20 per cent which an individual has to pay, for every R30 he will have to pay a certain amount which may even go up as far as 50 per cent or even more , whereas in this country the European pays a tax which does not exceed 5 per cent by very much. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : paying more.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: don't understand what you are saying.
We
CHIEF NDAMASE: My hon. friend says he does not understand what I am saying. I think I am just like him, because one day he said something he did not follow himself. All we ask is that whatever bill you bring before the House you are making laws for your own descendants. (Interjections) There is only one thing I would say in praise of the Government, namely, as regards local tax the person will only pay provided he has a homestead and an arable plot. Even though our hon. Chief Minister has not been a proper person for the post in this regard, however he has done something that is quite right. MR. S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the Taxation Bill before the House. There is not a bill that is better than this one in the whole of the Transkei . If you take note of things you will find that the people who pay taxes are people who are at home and who are poor. I shall not be long
They are
on this point because the hon. the Minister of the Interior has explained and shown what people fail to pay their taxes, even though they are of the higher income group. We know that it is the widows who pay their taxes regularly, even better than the men do , because by so doing they are protecting their arable allotments from being taken away from them. This PAYE system has been in vogue in the Republic for some time and this has saved a number of people who have always failed to pay their taxes because it was often clear that a person who had failed to pay the tax found in the end he had to pay interest and also late fees which he could not easily meet. This saves the people from plenty of trouble. The hon. member for Ngqeleni states that the European people pay less than we Bantu people pay in taxes. We pay equally because they earn more than we earn and we pay according to our ability to pay . If we were not employed it would not have been possible to make the advances we have made. The people who are opposing this bill are not keen to see their country make the advances it should make. In a certain issue of the Daily Dispatch in March last, it came out that a number of teachers in the Transkei do not pay their taxes and it was mentioned that if they did not pay by the 15th April then they would cease to be employed as teachers. I would like to know what you think of that when it refers to your own country and is being made known in other parts of the world. Do you think your country is being regarded by other people as being a good country? According to this bill we are going to be free so that even the chiefs will be able to get their bonuses . What is surprising about the hon. members of the Opposition is that they pretend not to know why the people have to pay taxes . I noted that the hon. Mr. Jafta said he did not know the difference
CHIEF NDAMASE : That 5 per cent is more or less the same tax as is paid by people of other countries . There is a form of income tax paid by each African in this country which is, however, not too well known. In South Africa both White and Black are the pillars which support the economy of the country, but because of the low level of the wages in South Africa it is clear that the African pays an income tax that is higher than that paid by the European. Even though I am not too well acquainted with the taxation laws I am aware, however, that there are people amongst the Europeans and Coloureds who have a tax-free portion of their income, where it is stated that there will be a certain rebate on the amount of taxable income. As an example, the councillors of the Coloured people enjoy that privilege . We have Ministers who are income-earning, but we are not sure whether they enjoy that privilege. It is not provided for in this bill. As regards the White people I don't think the Ministers pay rental for their government houses and the servants are paid for by the State.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They do pay. CHIEF NDAMASE : Also , Members of Parliament enjoy a certain portion of their salaries which is tax-free . We do not see any rebates allowed for in this scheme . All we see is that an employer may deduct a certain amount of money from the wages of his employees. Seeing we have a law that anybody who evades paying taxes should be arrested, why isn't this law applied? If I remember correctly, whatever deduction is made from the employees ' wages there is no way by which he can reclaim that. All we note here is that this law is according to the proper methods of taxing the people.
between general and local tax, but these have 318.
to the number of children that he has in the family and the bigger the family is, the more rebates are extended to the head of the family. I do not know whether this Government is embarking indirectly on a scheme of reducing the family sizes amongst Africans. In my view the more children you have , the merrier you are . (Laughter) You take this man with five children who has to send them to boardingschool, to university. The financial commitment is high and in spite of that there is no rebate extended to him in terms of this bill. I am given the impression that parents will find it hard to send their children to high schools and training schools because they are being taxed so heavily and are not getting any rebates for these children. Then you know, Sir , the old African custom of taking over responsibility when a family head dies, so that to my family of five or six persons I may find myself responsible for the livelihood and maintenance of five or six other people , because I happen to be in the position of head of the family. These become my dependants and I notice that in terms of this bill there are no rebates which will be extended to me by reason of the fact that I have these dependants . How are we going to meet such a situation? Are we going to throw these people back on the Government for the Government to give them grants to keep them out of poverty? How often have applicants for Do you have a son? Do grants been asked: you have a nephew? He will support you - you will not get a grant. You see , this system of not giving rebates for children and dependants is going to undermine that graciousness and kindness which is extended to dependants who would otherwise be destitute but for the grace of the African head of a family who is largehearted and generous .
been in existence throughout his whole life and he knows what benefits accrue from each of these taxes . There is a lot of taxation due to the Transkei from our sons who are employed in the Republic. These young men are employed in the schools and in the police force and so on and according to this bill they will be compelled to pay their taxes from now on. Government revenue will now be increased and we shall be able to meet our commitments in the Transkei. I liken you to people who are being swept away by the river, trying to grasp at any straw to save yourselves.
D AM
The debate was adjourned . The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on the second reading of the taxation bill was resumed. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in considering the principles of this bill relating to taxation I shall try to use as simple a language as possible so that we all understand what we are talking about. I think the Government has been patted on the back over the reduction of the general tax and I need say nothing on that score, but I think what the Government is losing on the swings it is getting out of the roundabouts . That is, concessions given to the ordinary taxpayer are received again by what I regard as a very arbitrary method of taxing the higher income group of people. Firstly, I cannot see whythe Government should not continue with the principle of combining incomes of married people and taxing that income as one income for the family, because I feel that when those incomes are combined there will accrue to the family certain rebates which are now not extended by reason of the fact that the husband and the wife are taxed separately. Then again, if females are going to be taxed on the same basis as males , then this , if the Government is going to do so, underlines my previous utterance that there should be no difference in the wages and salaries of males and females . Sir, there is this strange principle embodied in this bill , that the married and unmarried persons are going to be taxed on the same scale . I think one ofthe main purposes of a government is to have a citizenry which has a high moral standard which stems from a family, and it is for this reason that all governments tend to be lenient on the married man because he is establishing a unit which is the basis of the community. From the taxation point of view, what inducement is there for a young man to get married? He will be paying on his income just as much as an unmarried young man, and therefore he is not going to involve himself in bringing up a family when he knows there will be no tax rebates coming to him. I think if this principle is embodied in this bill as it is , young men will be more inclined to get children growing in the veld, rather than at home, because there is no benefit accruing to the family man by way of tax concessions. In terms of the Income Tax Act, rebates are extended to a wage-earner according
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But are you aware that the additional tax is far lower than the income tax, even where rebates were received?
bea MR. GUZANA : I am not so sure that that is so because, looking at the examples you have given me, I have not been able to find that there is any material reduction or that the man paying tax in terms of this bill will be better off than he would under income tax. O THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : In other words, you don't believe the examples I gave ? TO MR. GUZANA:
I believe my experience , rather than your examples . (Laughter) Then in terms of income tax there are certain rebates in respect of premiums paid for insurance policies , where a proportion of the premiums paid is exempt from income tax. We have no provision for that in this bill and yet I think it is the duty of the Government to encourage its citizens to provide for themselves by way of insurance policies to meet and help them out in their old age . BAW THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But the employer will give the amount that you earn after the deductions of these insurance premiums.
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THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Whatever else happens anyway, you have got the statement now and can refer to it later.
MR. GUZANA: Is that what you mean by I shall ask the hon. the "taxable income" ? Minister of Finance then to define clearly what he means by "taxable income" .
Assuming that it is so, MR. GUZANA : may I get the assurance from the Government that the regulations which are going to be drawn under this bill are going to embody these provisions which gave concessions to a wageearner?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is defined in the Act. Look at the definition. MR. GUZANA: I have read the definition but I want it spelt out in examples .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The definition is there.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : " Taxable income" is the income that actually accrues to that particular individual.
MR. GUZANA: We would like that clearly stated, coming from the hon. the Minister of Finance.
MR. GUZANA: That's right, nowthe accrued income may well be gross income or it may be nett income, but your definition of taxable income does not make that distinction. That is , I may earn R3,000 and pay out in wages R500 and according to this definition the taxable income will still be R3,000 , so that I feel there must be some clear indication that the taxable income is the nett income after these deductions to which I have made reference , after expenditure in respect of a business has been deducted. Thus , a general dealer may have a gross income of R10,000; overheads may well amount to R3,000 and his nett income is then R7,000. I ask : Does taxable income mean the gross income of R10,000 or the nett income of R7,000 ? That is what I would like explained, and it may well happen that in the R3,000 that he has expended on his business are included wages paid to his employees and it means that he, as the employer, is taxed on the R10,000 and the employees are also taxed on the amount which is paid to them , which was calculated in determining the tax of the employer. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : the definition.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: We have told you that the calculations will be the same as under the Income Tax Act. MR. GUZANA: We have had that sort of thing before, (Laughter) when the Government has given us interpretations here which have varied from what they have done afterwards . Then again, you have concessions extended to tax-payers under the Income Tax Act who pay a contribution to an annuity fund up to the amount of R1,200 . THE MINISTER covered.
OF
FINANCE :
That is
MR. GUZANA: I would like an assurance from the hon. the Minister of Finance ; in clear words that there will be a rebate under that head. Then, Sir, I am surprised that the Government has not made provision for what is known as a "loan levy". One gets the impression that this Government does not want money to be lent to it. You see, the Republican Government, as you have said, has imposed a loan levy which is about 15 per cent of the assessment. This makes funds available to the Government for certain industrial developments , a percentage interest is guaranteed to the taxpayer, but the Government in the meantime has the capital, invests it, earns more interest and the loan levy is redeemed, say, after four or five years . I believe this would give a boost to the finances of the Transkei if this Government had thought of including such a clause in this bill. After all, it is anticipated that the African is going into commerce in a big way and these large sums of money which are accumulated by businessmen, professional men and otherwise should be made available to the Government by way of a loan levy. Now, the hon. the Minister of Finance has run away from this debate. (Laughter)
But look at
MR. GUZANA : "Taxable income" means an amount which shall, save as may otherwise be provided in the regulations , be calculated in the manner in which the taxable income of any person other than a company is to be calculated for the purposes of the Income Tax Act. " THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That's right, the Income Tax Act. That is clear, and that is how the calculation will be made. The taxable income would be caluclated in the same manner as it was in terms of the Income Tax Act.
MR. GUZANA : If I remember correctly , I thought you suggested that the Income Tax Act would be repealed. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: How can you repeal an Act over which we have no say?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point or order, Mr. Chairman , the hon. the Minister of Finance has not run away from the debate , but he has gone to answer a very urgent 'phone call .
MR. GUZANA: I think I am correct in this, although I cannot lay my hands on it, but it was stated here . I shall refer you to your statement later on.
MR. GUZANA : I would have told the man who is 'phoning to wait until I had listened to the criticism of the Opposition. (Laughter) After all, we are making a responsible contri-
MR. GUZANA : Ithink you made that statement in this House .
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bution to this discussion and we would like to hear his comments. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am taking down notes for him . He will see what you are talking about when he comes back. MR. GUZANA : I see. I hope you take them down correctly. There is another point on which I wish to comment favourably, and it is this · that the Government has conceded that taxation legislation is complicated and that not all enventualities can be provided for in one piece of legislation. It is hoped that the Government will, after March, 1970, look critically , into the implementation of this taxation scheme and objectively criticize it so that amending legislation is brought in to alleviate any hardships which are not contemplated at the present moment. Those are my remarks on this matter , Sir. THE CHAIRMAN: If the members feel there has been sufficient discussion on this I shall ask the hon. Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, from the onset I would like to express my appreciation for the attitude which the Opposition has adopted towards this measure . The criticisms , which were very constructive , are highly appreciated , particularly when they come from people who appear to be ignorant about the provisions of this bill. You cannot blame a man when he is talking on a matter he does not know anything about. You can only excuse him for his ignorance. First of all, I would like to reply to the hon. member for Ngqeleni , Mr. Ramsay Madikizela, and to inform him that the report of the committee he referred to is in my office and he does not expect me to table the report of another Government before this House. In any event, I want to assure him that all the intricate problems involving the taxation laws of the Bantu of the Republic were gone into thoroughly by experts on financial matters and the decision that was made to tax the Bantu of the Republic....
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I think my department is preparing one. Now, coming to the question of whether this tax is equitable or not, as the hon. Mr. Madikizela said taxation on the Bantu is only based on the ability to pay and not on the actual earnings of that particular person , I would like to say that every able-bodied man is expected to work. There are exemptions , of course , for people who are not in a position to go to work. Now, coming to the hon. Mr. Jafta, he wants to find out how people married in community of property will be taxed. They will not be taxed on their properties but on their earnings , separately. In any event, even if their earnings were joined together the taxation would be on the joint earnings . It does not mean to say that if they are taxed separately they would pay more than ifthey were taxed jointly. Hon. members , I think this will also be a reply to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I gave examples of what would be paid by way ofadditional general tax as compared to what would be paid under the income tax laws of the Republic . If you turn to page 10 of my speech during the committee of ways and means on this bill , you will find these examples . On a total income of R1,500, if your wife earns R1,500 and you also get R1,500 each one of you will pay R19-92 per annum. Now, if you add that tax to R3,000 you will pay twice times R19-92 . In the Republic you would have to pay on that income of R1,500 R54 instead of R19-92 . MR. GUZANA: May I just refer you to the You say the person will taxation proposals. pay twice times R19-92 on an income of R3,000 . Now in the taxation proposals the income tax on an income of between R2,760 and R3,780 is given as R65-52 plus R2-40 for each completed amount of R30 by which the taxable income exceeds R2,760 . What does that amount to? On R2,760 the basic tax is R65-52 and then you pay R2-40 for every R30 in excess , so it goes up high in the taxation proposals as against your statement here. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : On a R3,000 income you pay R84 as against R212 if you are married. I am giving you now the figure for It is R84 as against R212 if you are R3,000 . married. Now, I come to a point where there are deductions for children and your income is R5,000 .
MR. GUZANA : Say " African" . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I will say "Bantu" , because you are a Bantu. I was saying that all the problems which surround the taxation laws of the Bantu of South Africa were gone into by financial experts and the sliding scale which you have in this bill was arrived at in order to make things easy for the Government to find money which otherwise would not have been found.
MR.
MGUDLWA:
And dependants ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, but if you have three children, instead of paying R270 as you are paying now you would pay R291 even with deductions for your three children.
MR. GUZANA: Whilst you are speaking , may I ask whether you could indicate what would be the form of return to be submitted by a taxpayer? I do not see a schedule of a return.
MR. GUZANA : way round?
Haven't you got it the other
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I say in spite of the rebate for the children you would still have to pay R291 , and if you are on R8,000 you would pay, with your three children, R860 per annum instead of R699 . Now, the definition of taxable income is clear , that you are taxed on the income after it has been calculated in terms of the Republican Income Tax
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Those schedules will be submitted to the employers. Those are the people who will send those forms. MR . GUZANA : form ?
L.L.
Do you have a specimen
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Act. In other words , you pay your tax on the income you actually receive as income.
MR. S.K. NDZUMO : Mr. Chairman , Ihereby stand to apprise the House that I withdraw this motion.
MR. GUZANA: After deductions ?
Agreed to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : After deductions have been made.
The motion was withdrawn.
PROHIBITION OF DESIGNATION OF PARAMOUNT CHIEFS IN REGIONS COMPRISING DIFFERENT TRIBES
MR. GUZANA: Well, having said that you have answered all my queries .
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move as appears on the order paper:-
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Thank you very much. I think I have answered even with regard to annuities . I don't think there is anything more for me to say because this is all clear to the members and, in any event, as I said in my speech we are going to go into this matter in the future if we find any problems . But what I would like the hon. members to bear in mind is that it is the duty of every citizen of the country to pay his or her taxes towards the revenue of the country. It is the person who is in a position to pay who must pay. As much as possible we would like to alleviate the burden which falls on the poor people and I hope you will go home and tell the people that this Parliament has not been advised by the hon. Mr. Lingham Maninjwa, Chief Douglas Ndamase , Chief Sandy Majeke , that they should do away with the general tax. Those are the people who imposed this tax on the people of the Transkei. In any event, they will have to make it clear to the Government that it is now necessary to abolish this levy which they imposed on the people , but I am advised that this general levy was imposed by the Transkeian Territories General Council by these hon. gentlemen, with all due respect to the aging Paramount Chief, instead of health rate .
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of recommending an amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act to prohibit the designation of paramount chiefs in regions where there are many different tribes within a regional authority area." MR. H.H. ZIBI : I second the motion. CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, the paramount chief should be paramount over his own If a certain paramount chief is made tribes. paramount over a number of different tribes it is quite obvious that such paramount chief would not be happy and enjoy privileges of being a paramount chief over his own tribe only. To give an example , the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland is rightfully placed as such because the whole tribe under him is composed of Pondos; and similarly in Western Pondoland and in Tembuland and Emigrant Tembuland . Those are the examples . Those paramount chiefs are paramount over their own people and those people Take a place similar to are their subjects . Emboland, where I come from. Even the name is self-explanatory, because "Embo " means a different tribe - tribes who came from Tugela
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Who was Chairman then?
to occupy a land which was not occupied . It is the same with Umzimkulu . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I think the Chairman was a certain Chief Magistrate . I don't know who he was during the year 1954.
THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member, the members are making too much noise. Please keep quiet.
CHIEF NDAMASE : Not the Paramount Chief He was also in the Council. of Qaukeni ?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The committee stage will be on Wednesday, 4th June, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Circumstances such as this may happen as the people comprising regional authorities are chiefs and heads of authorities . Let us take Emboland for example , where you find Bacas , Mpondomises, Hlubis , Beles , Sothos , Tembus and others . Those are separate , independent tribes and say now a regional authority meeting has been convened and the members form a quorum and one of them desires to be made a paramount chief. This matter is put to the vote · a vote which is not dealt with by the people but by the chiefs who have attended. One of them gets the majority and say a Mpondomise had asked to be paramount chief over this region. How is he going to rule the Bacas , the Beles , the Hlubis , the Sothos , the Tembus , etc. ? That would be the beginning of troubles and disturbances. Similarly, at Maluti you find the Hlubis , Sothos , Bahlokoana , Hlangwinis , Xhosas , Mpondomises , etc.
THE CHAIRMAN: Motion No. 46 .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : racialism , in fact.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , there was the dog tax and all the other taxes , but these wise gentlemen felt the Transkei citizens should pay a general levy and this Government would have to get very sound reasons in order to abolish such a sound levy. Mr. Chairman, I have already moved that the bill be read a second time . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Isecond. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time.
We shall proceed with 322.
Multi-
because he has tabulated here a number of tribes living in the Emboland region. If we are only to agree, we could just take my amendment because the amendment covers everything. His motion would be redundant because before we can come to a paramount chief we have what we call a family of clans . Then from the clans we have a tribe , then when we have a tribe we have a chief over that tribe . Now, to illustrate it better I will refer to my own area that is, Now in Tembuland I may refer Tembuland. to the Tembus as a big nation. We have the various clans and then we have tribes which are a section of the big Tembu nation. These tribes have chiefs over them from the very families up to the tribes . You will find that an ordinary person from a clan will say: My paramount chief is So-and - so. In Tembuland we have many chiefs but you will find a person right in Xalanga and a person in Mqanduli saying: I vow by the great chief, Ngubencuka or Mtirara. You see now, this ordinary Tembu, be he in Cape Town or anywhere , will say: I vow by the great chief. That is now the clans , the tribes and the chiefs paying allegiance to one unique overseer who is the paramount chief of Now, referring to section 45 , it the tribe . is needless for me to read it, Mr.. Chairman, but I will just refer to a portion which speaks of the region according to Bantu law and custom , and the designation of paramount chiefs shall "subject to the provisions of sub- section (2) vest in the regional authority concerned , subject to confirmation by the State President who may in his discretion confirm any such designation or refer it back to the regional authority conWith the cerned for further consideration. " acceptance of the system of Bantu authorities we have a perfect machinery because these tribal heads of the various tribal authorities come up now to a higher organ of administration, the regional authority. Every matter or any claim from an aspiring young chief who wants to come up to the level of paramount chief cannot go through the tribal authorities without being checked up as to whether he has a legitimate claim to paramountcy or not, and the regional authority as well scrutinizes every claim. My hon. friend from Qumbu has made a good example about Fingoland . We have three tribes in Fingoland; we have the amaBele in Tsomo, amaZizi in Nqamakwe and the Hlubis in ButterNow, it is only very clear that these worth. three chiefs are of equal status , but they conNone of them would ever stitute a region. Before claim paramountcy over the others . anybody can claim or anybody can aspire to paramountcy there are a number of things that are very important in order to substantiate the claim . The first and foremost is the country, the land . Is he the owner of this land? Once you trace that right back genealogically you can be sure he has a claim . Let me refer to Emigrant Tembuland again. Ngubencuka is the owner of the whole of Emigrant Tembuland and as such nobody could have any claim if he is not a descendant of Ngubencuka. Now, as you are aware, we have the Great House and the Right-hand House , so in my area we have the amaQwati and the Jumba but they all pay allegiance to one paramountcy. They are all Tembus, so nobody would claim paramountcy in an area
Who would then say he CHIEF MAJEKE : desired to be a paramount chief over such an area? If there should be such a chief he would bring trouble upon himself. There are certain rumours about chiefs with such desires . ( Laughter) In fact, some of them have been promised to be made paramount chiefs and they joined the ranks of the TNIP because they were promised. I am not fighting against the TNIP, but what I want to place on record is that if ever such a step is taken it would mean the beginning of trouble. Over and above that it should be noted that creating paramount chiefs should not be taken as a simple matter. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The Constitution allows the designation of people who are known to be paramount chiefs. CHIEF MAJEKE : As the Constitution allows this a paramount chief could be created in Emboland. Further, to have a great number of paramount chiefs would drain the finances ofthis territory. You will remember thatthe Republican Government did not encourage the appointment of a number of paramount chiefs . If a regulation could be made to stop the designation of these paramount chiefs who drain the finances of our Government, this motion does not interfere with present paramount chiefs. At Umzimkulu you will find there are Bacas , Hlangwinis , Pondos , Fingoes , etc. Even there it would not be correct to create paramount chiefs . I am aiming particularly at these three regional authorities. do not want to make any reference to Fingoland because they are all Fingoes there , and one day they may come to some mutual understanding. Mr. Chairman, this motion is self-explanatory. The appointment of these paramount chiefs would create trouble . I want the chiefs to rest in peace and not worry that in some future time I may become a paramount chief. (Laughter) I thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to move an amendment to this motion. My amendment is that all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : "the procedure to be followed in the designation of paramount chiefs as laid down in section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) , has adequate safeguards to ensure that no paramount chief can be foisted on a tribe or the tribes residing in any regional authority area. " MR. E.A. MAPASSA: I second. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman, I want to put the heart of the hon. member , the mover of the motion, at ease. I think the provisions in Clause 45 are quite sufficient. The safeguards there are for the interests of anybody who is a chief in an area where various tribes reside . My short discussion on this point can only be based on the understanding of the word Once a proper definition "paramount chief" . of "paramount chief" is given, nobody would ever succeed even if he is very ambitious to attain that position. In fact, the hon. member for Qumbu understands the position very well
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regions and they are different entities . I take it that a paramount chief is a paramount chief over other chiefs with their respective tribes . As has been said , both the Paramount Chiefs of Pondoland , Tembuland and the Xhosas rightly ruled their respective subjects because the subjects, for example in Pondoland are all Pondos and in Tembuland they are all Tembus.
like that. Now let us refer to Emboland . He has given us an analysis of the various tribes that reside in that region. From the very onset we would have to go deep into history and find out whether Qumbu or Tsolo.... THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member, the members are making too much noise. Carry on with the debate.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : Xhosa ?
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Now, Mr. Chairman, with reference to Emboland we would have to go deep into history to find out whether the owner of the country of Emboland was Paramount Chief So-and- so , and once that basis has been established it goes back to the clans in Emboland. I started with a family of clans and then above these clans we have the tribes , and now if those clans and those tribes and chiefs all gather at a tribal authority or regional authority meeting they say that So-and- so is their legitimate paramount chief. (Interjections ) As I have said, we have often said in politics that the voice of the people is the voice of God, where the opinion of the people will have to be taken consensus of and once the people say So- and- so is their paramount chief then the whole procedure will go through these provisions in the law. I am not going to waste more time about a useless claim from the next- door family because a matter that affects the whole people is the people's concern. There is, however, a fear from a person who, knowing perfectly well he is not on his land , is afraid of being thrown out. However , that is not my concern. I belong to Tembuland (Interjections ) and to the proper Tembu tribe . Finally, I plead with the hon. the mover of the motion to accept my amendment that the safeguards in section 45 are sufficient.
And is a Tembu not
THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , a Tembu is not a Xhosa .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I think the intention is that MR. ZIBI: in this House we must stop manufacturing paraParamount chiefs are born. mount chiefs. If, for example , we follow history, take part of the Emboland region and you will find it was land that belonged to the Pondos . Are we now going to say the Pondos must claim that land? You get to the Maluti region - we have chiefs who got there historically. You know one was there before the other. I suppose that is why the mover of the motion seeks to say there should be an amendment to this law to safeguard the position of such regions . The designation by this House may not necessarily be of a man who by birth ought to have been.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : designation by this House.
No,
it is not
MR. ZIBI : What is it? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This House makes a recommendation.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , though we live today in the space era and hoping to place a man on the moon only next month, we are finding ourselves faced with the primitive problem of discussing tribal matters which, by the way, is in keeping with the practice of this Government. Today you see a beautiful beauty queen or a university graduate on the front page of a periodical and then the next month you find a group of boys in an initiation ceremony. However , getting to the debate I rather regret that my hon. friend who spoke before me just missed the point in the Tembu region, because in the Emboland region or the Maluti region the set-up is not the same. It has been repeatedly submitted in this House that there are chiefs who are today chiefs because of the notorious service rendered in former days , given perhaps as policemen. There are those, of course, who may lay claim as of birth right and with others it is history. Now, with those regions mentioned by the hon. the mover of the motion - the Maluti region, for example , the Embo region, even perhaps the Fingo region ·he says we should follow history. That is one of his points . If then we follow history would there be a Fingo region, really? Would it not be encouraging the Gcalekas , perhaps , to claim what is known as the Fingo region today? Now both in Embo and Maluti regions there are ethnic groups , the Sotho ethnic group , the Hlubi ethnic group and so on. They are represented in those
MR. ZIBI: So that even if the regional authority brings forth a man who perhaps should not be paramount chief in that particular region it is O.K. so far as this House is concerned? GOVERNMENT MEMBER : vetoed.
No, it may be
MR. ZIBI: In any case , there are ways of coercing these people to submission. In any case , we are trying to explain that if you allow this it will cause great strife among the people. The Hlubis , the Xhosas , the Gcalekas would claim certain areas which they say formerly belonged to them according to history. (Interjections) There was not this Constitution at the time . This is what I want to know: What would be the attitude of this House if the Fingoes come to an agreement about a paramount chief? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : We would have to listen if they bring a case and say they have taken certain steps , but it does not necessarily mean we would have to accept it.
MR. ZIBI: A paramount chief is not a paramount chief of a region , but of a tribe. The motion intends to ensure peace so that if anyone wants something there should be no quarrel over it. The conditions existing among the Pondos , the Xhosas and the Tembus are not
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the same as those existing in Maluti and Emboland regions . In any event, the motion does not seek to do out anybody who otherwise would become a paramount chief.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : multi-racial, are they?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What about the chief in Emboland? Aren't you doing him out?
anything to bring about strife and trouble amongst us. There are people who have an eye to trouble and are therefore trying to bring feuds and divisions into this Assembly. We know one another here and we would advise you to go to your region and put it right. Chieftainship was created by God, so too this Government , and there is nothing that can stand the test of time except that which is ordained by God. I would appeal to the hon. chiefs on the other side because I know they are all of sound mind. Let us come together on this point and have one opinion . The opinion of the Republican Government is that we should live as one people and have no troubles among ourselves. We should have one aim . As my
They are becoming
MR. XELO: We in the Transkei are of one mind. We are one people and we do not want
MR. ZIBI : It aims at creating peace and not strife amongst the tribes. With the regional authorities referred to , judging from the standards here in this House of some ofthe members of those regions , you feel you cannot have respect for some of those regions . It cannot be said, therefore , that the fate of a people can depend on a regional authority, considering some of their members . TO THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Even before it gets to the regional authority it has had to be discussed somewhere . If you are not satisfied with that particular family then the clan, then the tribal authority, right up to the regional authority have a say.
lost word I say this as an example , that whatever has been ordained by God cannot be stopped. All we should do is to come together as one people. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, in view of the general rule that each member is allotted thirty minutes to his speech, I move that this House adjourn until tomorrow .
And yet it is possible it could MR. ZIBI : start from the regional authority level without In any event, being discussed by the clans. that is what the motion seeks - to safeguard the interests of the people .
The debate was adjourned.
MR. A. XELO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, throughout all my life I have never had to listen to accusations about thieves and theft . Have you withdrawn that? I will leave you alone , because I think what you have said is not your own opinion but you have merely been told by other people . Mr. Chairman , I rise to support the amendment by the hon. Mr. ka-Tshunungwa . I stand to support just that amendment within the period allowed me because what he has said is exactly what I would have said, because of the section in the regulations of this Assembly to which he referred. I am
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 3rd June , 1969. TUESDAY , 3rd JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , Mr. Kramer of the Xhosa Development Corporation is very anxious to address the members of this Assembly on the activities of the XDC . I think the members will be pleased to get clarification about some of the things they don't know. The Secretary of my department has arranged that this lecture be given at Abrahams ' Kraal on Thursday morning this week at 9 o'clock. I am appealing to all the hon. members to try and attend this meeting, particularly those who have had so muchto say against the Xhosa Development Corporation. Any members who have no transport to attend this meeting can hand in their names to the Secretary of the House so that free transport can be arranged , but I personally appeal to all those members who have transport to place the use of their private transport. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
aware that my hon. friend is merely perturbed by something which he should have put right in his own region, instead of bringing it . here . Perhaps he is trying to bring about peace whereas some people would regard his motion as creating trouble where there is none. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members must please You must listen to the speaker . keep quiet. Carry on, hon. member. The people of Great Britain MR. XELO : are divided into four different tribes , but they came together as one nation. They belonged at the time to different chiefs and there were feuds and wars amongst them. On that account we would that the Constitution as it is enacted here should remain and whatever is done in this connection should follow the rules and regulations set out in that Constitution . My one request to the Transkei Government is that we should try to be one in this Assembly, not that because we are in different camps the people should be putting in a cause for more trouble and difficulty. All happy nations , including the people of the Republic , are stretching forth a friendly hand to us to ensure peace.
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 26. Mr. W.C. Singata Justice:-
asked the Minister of
(a) Is the Minister aware of the numerous complaints of the public against the ill325 .
treatment they receive from some staff members in the district offices of the Transkei ?
instances seconded personnel are allowed to go on the bench when they have no legal qualifications whatsoever?
(b) Will he take steps to see that members of the public are protected against such ill-treatment and that they receive the respect and courtesy they deserve ?
(c) What is the reason for this practice ?
(c) What are the rights and redress of the public in this regard?
REPLY: (a) The required particulars are as follows : -
(d) Will he take steps to see that the people are educated through quarterly meetings etc. on their rights in this regard?
(i ) Officers with Civil Service Higher Law or Public Service Senior Law:
(d) Will he give an assurance that this practice will be stopped forthwith?
A.R.A. Smith , A.N.M. Marsberg, P.S. Botha , D.C.U. Havemann , D.B. Muir.
REPLY : (a) No. (b) In the training of staff due attention is given to human relations. In cases of misconduct by officers disciplinary action is taken.
(ii) Officers with Civil Service Lower Law or Public Service Law: J.F.W. Schultz , W.C. Slier , G.J. van Vuuren , D.J.M. Jordaan, M.N. Beukes , L.J. Snyman, H.D. Hooper , A.L.S. Luwes , N.L. Webb , P.J.L. Botha, J.A. Dracatos , J.L. Kloppers . C.E.C. Weber , A.E. Gaffen , A.K. Hutchison , H.F. Hannan . H.A. Dreyer, H.C.C. Scholtz , P.C. Vercuiel , E.L. Gregory , B.J. du Randt, W.B. Matthews , J. Chatterton , C.F. Erasmus , D.J. F. Hitge .
(c) A complaint may be lodged with the head of the office concerned; or, if the complaint concerns the head of an office, with the Secretary for my department. (d) No, it is not considered necessary. The people are well aware of their rights . QUESTION NO. 27. Mr. W.C. Singata Justice :-
asked the Minister of (iii) Officers with Attorney's Admission : A. L. Wilkens .
(a) Is the Minister aware that some Coloureds in the Transkei are in possession of identity cards as well as reference books , thus enabling them to enjoy rights and privileges in both rural and urban areas ?
(iv) Officers who are not legally qualified : G.S. Maritz , H.J. Meyer , P.S.J. Labuschagne , P.S. du Preez , C.F. Pretorius , H.K. Hare , D. Reineke , G.J. de Bruyn, A.C.J. van der Schyff , S.J. Swanepoel , R. Stander , W.F.E. Rex, D.W. Bouwer , W.J. Hills.
(b) Does he intend to take action to stop this irregularity?
(c) If so , what action?
(b) Yes.
(d) If not. why not? REPLY :(a) No. If the honourable Member is aware of such instances , he should bring them to the notice of the magistrates concerned .
(c) Because of the shortage of legally qualified officers and the volume of court work, I am unfortunately compelled to appoint also officers who are not fully qualified as judicial officers . For that reason 14 out of 15 seconded judicial officers and 13 out of 19 Transkeian judicial officers are not fully legally qualified. Unfortunately the Department of Bantu Administration and Development is also experiencing a shortage of legally qualified officers and is therefore unable to make only fully qualified officers available to the Transkeian Government Service . In any event , these officers usually dispose of minor cases only except where they have almost completed their law studies and have extensive experience .
(b) The magistrates concerned will in such instances take such steps as may be required by law.
(c) and (d) Fall away. QUESTION NO. 28. Mr. W.C. Singata Justice :-
I have furnished their names .
asked the Minister of
(a) What are the names and what are the legal qualifications of those officers of the Republic seconded to his Department and who do bench work in the district offices in the Transkei ?
(d) Legally qualified officers will be appointed as soon as they become available . As regards the efforts of my department
(b) Is the Minister aware that in certain
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chief to give him a building site for , say, one or two dwelling huts. Does this mean that the people who are not yet convinced of the advantages of this rehabilitation scheme must on that account die a natural death?
to train and qualify officers for judicial duties , I refer the honourable Member to my policy speech which was delivered on the 7th May, 1969 and in which I mentioned the various bursary and training schemes introduced for that purpose .
QUESTION NO. 29. Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Agriculture and Forestry:-
Minister
of
(a) What is the area of arable land in the Transkei?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, a specific question was put by the hon. member and an answer has been given to that. What the hon. member is asking now is something quite different from the question he originally put and therefore , if he is so interested, he may as well table it.
(b) What is the area of farms owned by the Africans in the Transkei?
MR. C.S. MNYILA : Mr. Chairman………. THE CHAIRMAN : We have gone past that question, hon. member. We must stick to the question tabled .
(c) What is the area of pasture land and woodlots in the Transkei?
MR. MNYILA : I will stick to the question , Mr. Chairman. As I listened to the hon. the Minister of the Interior replying, in the area from which I come, Tsomo , where an area was set aside for residences and markers were placed it is possible that a person may build outside those markers . I would appeal to the hon. the Minister of Justice not to be making signs because I require the answer immediately. (Laughter) When the planning committee arrives at this place they will find an area set aside by the magistrate and markers placed , and the people are told to build inside those areas and not outside. I have already been told by the Chairman to stick to the substance of the question. I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister of the Interior has informed the magistrate now that this is the method which must be followed namely, that people must accept rehabilitation before they can ask for home sites. That is my question and I place it before you . Here is the last point of this question, Mr. Chairman.
REPLY :
(a) 751,300 morgen. (b) 98,075 morgen. (c) (i ) Pasture : 3,245,000 morgen. (ii) Woodlots: 4,000 morgen (approx. ). QUESTION NO. 30. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education:-
What promotions are open to female teachers in the Department? REPLY : The following promotion posts exist for female teachers :(a ) Principal of Lower Primary Schools . (b) Supervisor of Education for Special Subjects. (c) Organiser of Special Subjects . QUESTION NO. 31 . Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of the Interior:-
THE CHAIRMAN : You are asking another question now. Sit down , hon. member. Has the hon. Minister anything to reply to that?
Why do Bantu Affairs Commissioners refuse to allocate kraal sites in non- rehabilitated areas ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : As a result of the fact that the hon. member went a little bit too far , now I have the honour to say he must table his question.
REPLY : In order to maintain the ratio between arable and residential allotments and grazing land it is policy not to allocate new sites on virgin land in areas which have not been planned .
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, why has this question been referred to the Department of the Interior instead of the Department of Agriculture ? I just want to be educated on that.
When administrative areas are planned and the residents are concentrated in the most suitable area, provision is normally made for the allocation of residential sites to all those residents who qualify for occupation of such sites. This leads to the proper utilization on an economic basis of available land, having regard to the fact that agricultural activities by Transkei citizens are mostly limited to crop farming and animal husbandry.
THE CHAIRMAN : It is the department which can answer that question. I cannot answer it.
QUESTION NO. 32. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of the Interior:-
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply of the hon. Minister I would like this point clarified now. As regards the people in non-rehabilitated areas , those people who have no building sites , how will they finally be enabled to have these building sites as there is no provision for anybody to ask either his headman or
Is the Minister aware that pensioned teachers are at a disadvantage by having to travel long distances to the post office to get their money? That sometimes the postmaster tells them to go home and come back the following day, adding more expense and inconvenience to those old
327 .
people? If so, what steps are being taken to remedy this situation? If not, why not?
they provide the remedy which is readily available.
REPLY :
QUESTION NO. 35. Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
Teachers who draw their pensions at Post Offices are not members of the Pension Fund administered by my Department and I therefore have no control over the methods of payment.
Why is the Department not paying travelling subsistence to those stock inspectors who use their vehicles on official duties as is being done by other Departments?
QUESTION NO. 33. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : -
REPLY:
In a rehabilitated residential area the streets are left impassable because of old furrows , aloes and stones . Will the Minister explain why this is not attended to by officers on the work? REPLY :
All Stock Inspectors who require vehicular transport for the execution of their official duties are issued with government vehicles . All other officers receive subsistence and travelling allowances for animal transport where applicable.
Because it is not the function of the department to make streets or to ensure that every homestead is served by a proper road.
QUESTION NO. 36. Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister , it is this Minister or his department which encourages rehabilitation of these villages and he says that it is not the duty of his department, whereas he has collected all the residents in the locality to this one particular area. Why are these villages being rehabilitated, therefore?
(a) Will the Minister make a statement as to whether there are any officers who have been appointed to the rank of Senior Road Foreman since the establishment of the Transkei Government? (b) If so, how many?
(c) If not, why not? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : different question altogether.
That is a
REPLY:
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this very clear . It appears as though the hon. Minister does not grasp exactly what I want. When the planners went round it was made clear that the homesteads would be given and streets made . I want to know whether he is now contradicting that.
(a) No Transkei citizens have as yet been appointed to the post of Senior Road Foreman. (b) A recommendation is shortly to be made to the Public Service Commission for the appointment of a Bantu Senior Road Foreman against a vacancy which has occurred.
THE CHAIRMAN: Has the hon. Minister any reply?
(c) Falls away. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No. Mr. Chairman.
MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman , seeing that no Transkeian citizens have been promoted to these positions , does it mean there are none who are competent enough to be appointed?
QUESTION NO. 34. Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: -
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : That is a different question. Put it in writing.
Is the Minister aware of the cattle disease now prevalent in the districts along the coast? If so , what steps has the Minister taken to remedy this blow to cattle owners ? If not, why not?
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Agriculture would like to amplify his reply to Question No. 17 (c) replied to on Tuesday , 27th May, 1969. I now call upon the hon. Minister.
REPLY : It is assumed that the disease referred to is red water which has not now become prevalent but has occurred for many years. The owners of stock have been and are constantly advised how to combat and treat the affected animals.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, hon. members will recall that I promised last week to amplify my answer to question No. 17 (c) put by the hon. Mr. R.S. Madikizela. I now wish to reply to his question as follows :-
The Department has made its field staff available to assist in the treatment of sick animals on request of the owners and when
"(c) When the Department has finally decided to withdraw from the Phormium Tenax
328.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, that is the meaning we give to it in the Forest Bill.
project in Lujizweni Administrative Area the land will in all probability revert to the Tribal Authority. " TRANSKEI
Cluase put and agreed to.
AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT BILL FIRST READING
On Clause 2 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Agricultural Development Amendment Bil .. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) I now table a message in terms of rule 128 (b) of the rules of procedure that the Minister of Finance recommends that the bill be considered by the Assembly. I now move that the bill be read a first time .
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , we would like motivation here in regard to (n) , "to provide such accommodation and other facilities for officers ...." ...." etc. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What is not Say what you want to know. clear there ? MR. JAFTA: Motivation. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, it is the function of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry to decide what accommodation and other facilities are required for officers and employees on forest reserves and to provide for such accommodation. That is the motivation.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE CHAIRMAN : reading ?
What date for the second MR. JAFTA: Have you any provision already in these cases ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, 4th June , or so soon thereafter.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : there are already buildings provided. MR. H.H. ZIBI : (h) ?
TRANSKEI FOREST BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House now go into committee .
Agreed to . House in Committee
On Clause 1
What do you mean CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : by "regulate"? Who will regulate ?
MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, item (viii) , would the hon. Minister give us the Xhosa translation of all these words , please . They are
MR . ZIBI : In Sesotho , then. Sesotho- speaking people here .
There are
Will you please explain
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this clause is so straight-forward that I do not see there is any need to motivate. It says " to regulate and control , subject to the laws relating to the entry of persons into the Transkei and the protection of game , fish or birds , the entry of persons into and the use of Government forests for the purposes of hunting, fishing, picnicking, camping or recreation generally. "
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : given in the Xhosa version.
Yes ,
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Forestry Department will regulate .
The
MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, when we put a question we require a reply. We are not merely playing here because when we get back to the electorate we shall have to explain these things . Here is my question: What does this mean, to make one as happy as one can desire in these forests ? (Laughter )
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall proceed to clause 2. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : No , Mr. Chairman, I would just like to put a point of clarification. Clause 1 , item (xxii) , in the interpretation of "theza " do you "theza " thatching grass ? We know that as a rule with "theza" it is only firewood, but as far as the grass is concerned we use the word " cut" .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I wonder if the hon. member is really serious about his question , because the people who are camping or having a holiday are at liberty to enjoy themselves in whatever way they wish as long as they do not damage the forests .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , it is only for convenience ' sake .
MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , I am asking this question very seriously .
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : The Minister must reply.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: answered now. 329.
That has been
MR. KUTU: Which one?
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, we have two types of forests in these areas . There are forests belonging to the Government department and those given over to the headman or chief in the area. Must we get a permit to enter both of these forests , or is the case different when you come to the forest given to the chiefs and headmen?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have answered your question.
MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, here is my question: I am not referring this to the site, but I want to know because we have two different types of forests. There are artificial plantations and natural forests. Of these two , which is this particular one in which we shall make ourselves as happy as we would like ? ( Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I think my hon. friend over there will not think we are getting impatient. If you stop on the public road going through the forest there is no need to ask for a permit, but if you have to go into the forest area then you must get the permit. In fact, I think I should call it the permission from the forester in charge . I think I have answered you - even if he is a paramount chief. There was another point raised. With reference to what is called the "headman's forest" there is no need to get any permission as there is no forester stationed there.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I wish , Mr. Chairman, that the hon. members would be serious about this bill. We are not here to play. The hon. member understands the paragraph very well. I will request him to stop fooling. MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I quite understand that in regard to picnicking, camping, hunting and fishing one would have to get a permit for those, but recreation generally - suppose I live in Umtata and I am on my way to Butterworth and near a forest I stop my car and perhaps have a rest under any of those trees , perhaps with my legitimate wife . Do I need a permit for that or can I rest without a permit?
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, I understand the reply given by the hon. Minister. Now, could you help me with this point : The paramount chief may be living four miles away from this particular forest. The man who is in charge of this forest is living, say, two or three miles away . I go into this forest and find a shady place where I would like to pause and rest. Where will I be able to get this permit, so that my horse can graze and I also can pause to rest in the forest?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, if you go into the forest, actually within the boundaries of the forest, you must have a permit.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I said you get the permission from the forester who is in charge .
MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, we would ask the hon. Minister to be patient. I note that he is not controlling himself and I note the way they are speeding through things in this Assembly. Here is a point, Mr. Chairman. Do you mean that seeing I am headman of the area I must go and get a permit to be able to walk into this plantation or forest, seeing that I am a guard and am looking after the Forestry Department in my area? Must I also go and get a permit even though I am in charge of the forests themselves ? We would like this to be made clear. He must be very patient because I will ask him further questions on something which we have already gone over.
MR. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, could the hon. Minister explain (j ) , please? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Again it seems to be very straighforward . This is to regulate and control the collection of honey , the catching of bees or bee -farming in Government forests. What is your difficulty? MR. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, does the hon. Minister mean that we cannot collect honey now in these forests any more ? Do you mean the forests which have been demarcated with stone markers , or do you also include the forests given over to the headmen? If we do not have to collect honey in these forests , what benefit does the Government draw from the bees living there, or does the Government intend to go and collect the honey themselves and even sell it to raise funds ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member be picnicking, camping, or enjoying recreation? MR. MNYILA : No. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Those are the things for which he requires a permit. The hon. Minister has already mentioned that.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. member has been answered by the section itself. "To regulate " does not mean to refuse , so you can get the meaning from the text. I shall now put the question.
MR. MNYILA: Where will he get this permit? From which office ? Just to add to this question , MR. KUTU : here is another point: I am on horseback going through this forest. If my horse is tired , or I myself feel tired of riding, can I not stop and rest under a tree ? There may be a shady part just over the fence and my horse may be grazing here. Must I go back to the office to get a permit to rest on my way?
Clause 2 put and agreed to.
On Clause 3 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This clause says the Minister may from time to time divide the Transkei into forest divisions , dis330 .
This refers to the forests already existing and any others that may from time to time be added on for easy administration as well as for fixing the tariffs to be charged . For instance , we have what we call the Southern Division Forest; there may be an Eastern Division and the Northern Division . Each of those divisions is under one man , so that the several forests there are under the charge of one man with several foresters in each forest . Also , the tariffs which are applied for the sale , for instance , of forest produce , may be made different for the different divisions . I think that is quite clear, Mr. Chairman. tricts or areas .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Now we are on clause 5. Hon. members are requested to consider these clauses so that when we have passed the clause they may have no complaint that they have been rushed through.
On Clause 5 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , this clause , as you see , deals with the reservation of land for forest purposes. Before any land can be used for forestry that land must first be reserved and set aside for forest purposes , after which it becomes a forest reserve in terms of clause 1 ( ix) - Definitions . In the Transkei it is the function of the Cabinet to decide on the use ofthe land . The Cabinet must therefore approve of the use of the land for forest purposes and reserve it, setting it aside for the purpose of forestry. Now, there is another point - the Department of the Interior , as the department of Lands , will then note the reservation on the title deeds and hand the land over to the Department of Forestry and Agriculture for administration as a forest reserve .
MR. G.G. KUTU : Does this mean that you will have another Minister on that side , or will you have any demarcations ? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: question of that. MR. KUTU : replied to.
There is no
Mr. Chairman, I have not been
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: question.
That was no MR. G.G. KUTU : Where will you get this area that you will set aside specially for forestry in the Transkei ?
Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is decided by the Cabinet.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, somebody is asking about sub- clause (1) and bearing in mind what we mentioned in regard to clause 3, it is necessary to designate the posts for these divisions so that we might name one the Chief Forester , the Assistant Forester and so on, because in terms of clause 20 certain special powers are granted to forest officers with regard to forest offences , e.g. the powers vested by law in police officers , including the power of arrest. Hence it is necessary to give the designation and therefore the authority for these forest officers.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: When this area is being demarcated , will the people resident in that area be informed, as we have had this experience that as soon as the residents see the forest workmen marking out a certain area they will immediately take exception . I ask whether the people will be informed of this previously, before it is undertaken. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, there is a tendency with some of us to belittle the intelligence of the paramount chiefs and regional authorities . Section 5 (2 ) of the bill is quite clear , that there shall be consultation with the regional authority. I see there is an intended amendment (I don't know whether it has been moved or not) which seeks to introduce consultation with the tribal authority . I do not know whether this is sort of passing a vote of no confidence in the regional authority because the Government consults the regional authority and it is the duty of the regional authority to consult with the tribal authorities under its jurisdiction.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : I thought you would go further to cover the bribes , in ( 2 ) (a ) and (b) . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, no forest officer or employee of the department shall solicit or recive or agree to It receive these bribes , as you call them . seems to be quite clear . MR. ZIBI : Yes , what will the punishment be ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Offences are given later on.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I should like the hon. Mr. Zibi to move his amendment.
Clause put and agreed to. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, the intention of the amendment is to include the tribal authorities to avoid the position where the regional authority may take a decision without the knowledge of the tribal authority....
MR. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, in paragraph (3) the question of headmen is appearing for the first time and we would like an explanation. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We have gone past clause 4 already, so we get to clause 5 now.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , that is passing a vote of no confidence in the regional authorities .
MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, we are still asking for motivation on clause 4 (3) . We were hurried over this thing and we did not read it carefully.
MR. ZIBI:
331 .
....because some of the tribal
authorities are not represented in the regional authorities because , as the set-up is now, there are quite a lot of nominated members by the Government with the result that some of the tribal authorities are not even represented on the regional authority. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Where is that? MR. ZIBI: I concede that chiefs do attend the regional authority meeting, but you findfrom experience that he would sooner respect the tribal authority than consult the regional authority. I am trying to say, therefore , what is wrong in putting the tribal authority in, because after all said and done the area to be set aside may belong to a tribal authority which in turn is part, of course , of the regional authority. That is my submission, Mr. Chairman. MR. C.S. MNYILA: I second , Mr. Chairman. MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman, I don't quite understand this amendment. It appears that the hon. member is not well acquainted with the administration. Firstly, when an area is being picked out as a suitable area for this purpose, such area will be mentioned to the magistrate and to the chief. I want to make this clear, especially about the regional authority to which he has referred, so that the people who reside in the area will be consulted in this matter by the chief and by the tribal authority concerned. Thereafter the matter will be taken to the regional authority. Here onlythe regional authority is mentioned. We have not mentioned the tribal authority, the magistrate and other people through whom these things will have to pass, because the regional authority will be the final body which will consult with the Cabinet in the matter. I don't see any difficulty in this . MR. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, I rise to give assistance to the hon. Minister in regard to the area which he mentions will be set aside for forestry. I would like to know whether it will not be advisable to have these areas marked in the regions where there were forests formerly, or where there was plentiful water , because those areas are not beginning to dry up. Forget about people who have accepted or not accepted rehabilitation, but merely carry out a scheme which will be helpful generally to the people , because these forests are under his department and likewise the availability of natural water, and the people are looking to his department.
whether the part singled out can be given over to the Forestry Department. Whatever is done as regards this forest must go through the chief and thereafter consultation with the tribal authority must be held so that all may be carried out harmoniously. In some of these forests you find the fencing erected and people put up fences without having had previous consultations . MR. M. DINWAYO: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I want to make this clear . Each tribal authority has a member in the regional authority and therefore the tribal authority will be informed by its members in the regional authority. These gentlemen do not understand. OPPOSITION MEMBER: of order.
That is not a point
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I think we are going to mislead the House if we do not stick to the bill. We seem to be talking and concentrating on what has been happening before this bill , when this bill is intended to eliminate the irregularies that have been taking place in the past. If people were not consulted before when the areas were to be set aside for forestry, this sub-section (2) is intended for that. Now, I cannot understand the question of belittling and, in fact, the members ' suggestion that the regional authority can be circumvented . Some of the members who form the tribal authorities are members of the regional authority. Now my hon. friend from Mqanduli says the chiefs must be consulted. Now , all tribal authority heads are ex officio members of the regional authority. That is, apart from the fact that before the hon. Minister can take the recommendation of the regional authority he will satisfy himself that the people or the tribal authorities have been consulted by the regional authority. Surely the hon. members across the floor who have some legal knowledge will understand that the drafting of a bill is not an easy thing. It cannot be made unwieldly. The intention here is that the people should be consulted and my hon. friend , Mr. Mgudlwa , who has some knowledge of the law will know that in the interpretation of a statute , if the statute is ambiguous then recourse is had to the intention of the legislature . MR . ZIBI :
What is wrong in including it?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is very wrong because it may lead to a lot of confusion. You don't say how the tribal authorities are to be consulted, for instance . Your amendment might give the department the right to go and consult the tribal authority without consulting the regional authority. (Interjections ) Listen, you don't know legal language . Your amendment does not say this must be consulted at the same time, it says "after consultation with the regional authority and tribal authority" , which means that the department can go and consult the regional authority alone and then... (Interjections )
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the last speaker , especially because as regards the tribal or regional authority these forests are not under the regional but under the tribal authority. It is therefore proper that the department shall first consult with the tribal authority before these tribal authorities can take this matter to the regional authority, for it may well be that the officers or employees in this department may interfere with the villages and dwellings of the people, especially as regards the areas they may require for this purpose. It is proper therefore that the chief and the tribal authority agree
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, the position is that the tribal authority can be
332.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The amendment by the hon. Mr. H.H. Zibi is that section 5 (2) be amended by inserting after the word "authority " the following words : " and the tribal authority". Those in favour?
consulted at its own place and in its own time . With this amendment the department may go to the tribal authority without consulting the regional authority and that might result in a lot of confusion because the tribal authority might say they want it and the regional authority may say No. Then the department might act on the work of the tribal authority and disregard the recommendation of the regional authority and say they have been consulted , whereas if the matter is left to the regional authority to consult with the tribal authorities then the regional authority will come with a uniform recommendation from the tribal authorities and the regional authority.
The amendment was lost .
Clause 5 put and agreed to . On Clause 6 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I think this clause is fairly clear . After the Cabinet has reserved the forest then it is handed over to the Minister who then demarcates it. I move accordingly.
The debate was adjourned.
AFTERNOON SESSION
MR . C.S. MNYILA: Would the hon . Minister explain whether people will be able to colect firewood in these forests ?
The debate on clause 5 of the Forest Bill was resumed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is a provision of "theza " .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not believe that any responsible department would cause the kind of confusion referred to by the hon. the Minister of Education when he spoke on this amendment.
MR. MNYILA : Will the hon. Minister motivate this point fully.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, can we be made clear on the fact that the mover of the amendment is now replying?
MR. H.H. please .
The
Assembly adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In clause 14 we deal with the matter of "theza " . ZIBI :
Motivation on 6 (3 ) (b) ,
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think this is just what the hon. Minister has been saying now. Will you please repeat it ?
MR. ZIBI : No , I am discussing .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, after the Minister has demarcated the forest he may still change those boundaries . That is all it means .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You cannot discuss twice .
MR. ZIBI : It is the committee stage . Here is a man who is an ex officio member and head of a tribal authority and he is the sole representative of that tribal authority to the regional authority. He leaves home to get to the meeting. He leaves home , but does not get to the meeting. He is just a man around town and meanwhile a decision is made by the regional authority on a matter affecting the tribal authority in his absence .
MR . G.G. KUTU : By changing these boundaries you may be increasing or decreasing the area concerned and in the case where you wish to increase the area who will you consult, seeing the area outside the boundaries was not demarcated originally for the forest? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the Minister can only define or re - define an area which is reserved under the provisions of section 6, and no further than that.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Whose fault is that?
That is what we are trying to MR. ZIBI : safeguard - that people may not of necessity suffer as a result of irresponsibility on the part of their tribal head. Please don't make us call a spade a spade , because you can well see the conduct of some of us who are members of the regional authority right in this House. We believe the hon. Minister will bear with us and look at this thing intelligently. These are laws affecting people we represent.
Clause 6 put and agreed to . On Clause 7
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What you say is contained here.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , this , as you see , refers mainly to the protection of trees as well as forest produce as defined earlier in clause 1. You have seen the Schedule of trees that are specially mentioned for protection . That is what this clause refers to, so I think it is also fairly clear , but if there is anything I shall always be willing to explain .
MR. ZIBI : I don't see why the hon. Minister What is wrong cannot insert it in his bill . with it?
MR. G.G. KUTU : Suppose , after you have demarcated an area, you get trees growing outside the demarcated area of the same kind as 333.
the trees within the demarcated area, perhaps growing in a grazing area or in a plot of arable land, growing from the roots of trees in a demarcated area. Will you include those saplings in the forest area? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You cannot take land that is not demarcated under the previous section. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I was going to say that the hon. the Minister of Education explained that. The Minister cannot go outside the boundaries. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, if I understand the hon. Minister in his explanation of forest produce , where he referred to the honey and other wild food that may be found in these forest areas .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: When we speak of forests , Mr. Chairman, and forest produce , forest produce is defined in section 1 (viii) , where bees, birds , branchwood , bulbs , charcoal, creepers , earth, essential oils and everything else is defined as forest produce . MR. DUMALISILE: And roots ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : "roots" is defined as forest produce .
will explain whether we should not be allowed to have any sticks for self-protection? MR . E.A. MAPASSA: Mr. Chairman , I rise to speak on a small point in this clause. We In our Bantu people are very busy people . population we have people like witch-doctors , doctors and medicine -men who use roots for medicine . I want to know if it is not possible to make provision whereby such people will be able to remove these roots for medicine purposes. We are here representing that section of the people as well . We also should make provision for them because these roots are of beneficial effect to us. I do not attend any session of this Assembly without having washed myself with medicine. Clause 7 (1) (a) (ii) MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : mentions land which is not a Government forest. As regards such lands , would it not be advisable to leave the chiefs and headmen to consult with their own people as to how to use the trees? I could understand as regards the areas in Government forests , but in the land outside those areas why is it not left to the chiefs and people to have free access to those, either to cut the branches or to dig up the roots they need? I think these roots will also be useful to the hon. Ministers when they are indisposed.
And THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I think the hon. member for Umtata might be advised that the sooner he gets civilized the better. Usually there is no need for carrying sticks. In any case, these trees have always been protected even by former laws, so we are not making a new law about this . With reference to herbalists there is always provision for permission to be obtained from the man in charge to get special herbs , but not the particular trees that are protected in any case. In regard to land which is not a Government forest, there again comes the trouble where the people may steal the particular tree protected inside the forest and then he says he got it outside the forest. So the Government must be on the safe side with every tree concerned. Of course, again as we have said, there is the possibility of permission, as long as you get permission and we know you have got that certain tree at a particular place.
MR. DUMALISILE : I am thankful for the hon. Minister's explanation on this point. I have been specially referring to other things such as roots and honey and similar things , and I want to know if the people are not in a position to take such things. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is the same thing as if you see bees and then these bees lead you right to a beehive in my kraal . Now, you have no right to follow those bees and come and rob them. In fact, the word "phakula" has a strange expression in English, because it is known as "robbing the hive " . So you are not entitled to come and rob the bees in my kraal. Now, similarly, the bees that are in the forest you have no right to go and rob those bees in the forest because you will now be removing forest produce . The same with the roots of trees and other things - if you remove those roots from a tree in the forest you will be removing forest produce .
OPPOSITION MEMBER: from the Government?
From the chief or
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes. At one place you saw the word "headman" amongst the officers. You may ask the headman to exercise his authority as long as we do know who has done it.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I am taken aback to hear that even children and herdboys will not be privileged to take the edible roots found in these forests. It was from these roots that our children were able to get proteins to avoid TB . Here is a question I would like to ask: As regards protected trees , I see there the names of such trees from which we used to get sticks. I would like to know whether we will be able to get permits to buy or to cut the particular branch to make a stick, because we are not allowed to have firearms and we are not allowed to have spears and other weapons . We are not even allowed to have a knife . Now we are told we cannot have " kieries" and sticks. I wonder if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture
MR. C.S. MNYILA : Here is a question and I would be glad if the hon. Minister would reply. In the area from which I come we have arable plots within the forest areas and the people have title deeds to those arable plots. On arrival I found some people under arrest because I had given them authority to go and clear the area so that they could plough the land, and they were arrested by the person in charge of the forest area. The officer maintains that the people cut 334.
the trees from the forest area within the boundary and I was called to give evidence and I told the magistrate to go with me to the area concerned because the trees which grow naturally in the arable plots are exactly the same as the trees found in the demarcated area. How do we get over that, Mr. Minister ? It became clear that you being a person who comes from the surveyed areas have a title deed to your own arable plot. In passing judgement the magistrate said in this title deed it is only diamonds and gold and other minerals that you are not permitted to keep for your own property. Anything other than precious stones , but everything else belongs to the owner and he found him not guilty.
herbalist were to go to the forest at night and remove roots , it is just taking a risk with somebody else's life . You cannot be sure in the night that that herbalist will pick on the correct tree . In fact, that is precisely where we usually have people removed from erbalists in a deteriorated state of health , even worse that when they went to the herbalist . If he has got to dig up a bulb, for instance , in the night how does he know he is digging the correct bulb? So this is amply provided for , hon. members . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the hon. Minister have anything further to add? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Just a point raised by the hon. member for Tsomo. The best I can say about those people is that they were lucky not to be convicted . I think the prosecutor did not realise the whole law , so next time don't you tell people to remove trees which are protected anywhere , unless you get the proper authorization.
MR. M. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman, I have heard all that was said about the use of trees and such things , but I should like to be made clear about the people who make pipes . I note that the trees used for the making of these pipes are included among the protected trees . Are these people to be given authority to cut branches for the purpose of making these pipes? We will be happy if the hon. Minister would give authority for such trees as I will mention to be cut for the making of pipes . I appeal to the Government to allow such people to go into any forest within the Transkei for the purpose of making these pipes .
MR . B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , we have a list of these indigenous trees and protected trees and we would be happy if the hon. Minister would explain briefly.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : That question is out of order. I will ask the hon. Minister to move, as most of these things will be explained in later clauses .
CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to put people on the right lines . It appears we are debating these clauses and it is time for a debate but I think we are just worrying the hon. Minister concerned .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I would ask for motivation on (b) . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please. Will the hon. Minister move.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, if hon. members look at section 14 they will find that the granting of permission to cut and remove forest produce is provided for. Section 14 ( 1 ) says : "Except as provided in sections 7 (5) and 10 and in subsections (2) and (3) of this section, no person shall in any Government forest without authorization... " (Now , authorization is giving ofpermits . ) " ... cut, fell , remove , injure , destroy, collect or take any forest produce . " Now, that means that.... (Interjections) Hon. Mr. Mnyani , if you know all about this , which I doubt very much, you had better zip your mouth and let the other people who want to know, know. Now, this section provides that a person may go and apply for a permit and only under section 7 (5) and subsections (2) and ( 3) of this section may people remove or do certain things in the forest under certain conditions , and they are tabulated in those sub- sections . So the question which was asked by the hon. member for Kentani is well Those herbalists can go to people answered. in authority and apply for permits . So you may tell them when you get home that they must always go to the people in authority and ask for permits if they want to go into the forest and remove forest produce .
Clause 7 put and agreed to . On Clause 8 MR. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, seeing that this is the way, we are asking for motivation on every clause . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That has been done already. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I don't understand that hon. member speaking. I don't know that I gave him permission. We are on clause 8 now .
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : (Inaudible) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member, Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa, walk out , please . Mr. L.L. Mgudlwa left the Chamber. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I thought, and still think , that this should be the least of all the clauses to need motivation. It explains itself and , what is more , it safeguards the rights of private owners of land.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : And if the herbalist is approached in the evening because someone is taken suddenly ill ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION :
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is too much noise .
If that 335.
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ahead of us.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It provides for compensation or payment for any loss which the said owner may have suffered. So, Mr. Chairman, allow me to move that this clause be passed.
You are
Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9
CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make this request: I do not see why the hon. member has been turned out.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I may mention that as we develop it will become necessary to have these nature reserves. You will perhaps know that there are people who like such places and tourism is one of the paying propositions nowadays in our economy . So we are looking forward to that time when in the near future we should be able to provide such places . Now, with reference to protection of forests , I may mention that sometimes a certain forest may become valuable, for instance as a waterprotection area, and that is why we mention also that in addition to ordinary nature reserves we may have special places which are demarcated as protection forests.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : That is out of order. We are discussing clause 8. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know why he has been sent out. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Are you questioning the authority of the Chair? CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr. Chairman, I am referring to the whole House. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Are you questioning the authority of the Chair?
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I had a question here and I was told it was out of order. Can I not put that question now? As regards these indigenous trees , apart from the fact that they are beautiful to look at, would the hon. Minister make a statement as to their economic value?
CHIEF MABANDLA: No , Sir. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: with clause 8.
We will go on
MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, who determines the value of the compensation - the owner or the department?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, their beauty alone is of great economic value in fact, more than economic, it has aesthetic and spiritual value . Also , these trees are of scientific value and, of course, most of these named here are really useful in timber production.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member is so infuriated that he does not even read what is in front of him . Section 8 (b) ( i) is as follows : " ..shall be entitled to such compensation as may be agreed upon by such owner and the Minister (acting in consultation with the Minister of Finance ). " It merely means there will be consultation between the Minister and the owner of the land, in consultation with the Minister of Finance .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister made reference in his speech to our indigenous trees as taking a long time to reach maturity. We would like to know whether they have made efforts in these plantations to try to grow these indigenous trees . Have they made up their minds to grow any of these trees in the nature reserves?
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : I would appeal to the hon. Minister who is negotiating this bill to be sympathetic with us even if we are fools on this side of the House , or even if we are regarded as fools . He has carefully studied the bill he has brought forward....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: These questions you are putting are rather out of this clause we are dealing with. CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , under what clause would this come , so that I can put this question? I mention this under the clause dealing with nature reserves because in order to have these nature reserves beautified we should grow trees . I wanted to make it clear that the nature of our country and the indigenous trees that grow here go together. The tourists from overseas coming into this country should be made to see the indigenous trees of this country, rather than wattle and gum trees.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, honestly this hon. member is out of order, because we are trying to reply to all the questions they are asking. Just now I was replying to the hon. member for Mount Fletcher, so there is no need for all this lengthy pleading and admonition and what not. We are trying to co -operate as much as possible .
CHIEF MAJEKE : I was referring to the hon. Minister who is piloting this bill. We would like to know what cause there is for this strict protection of these particular trees , especially in the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I may help the hon. member. We are talking about natural scenery. Will it be natural now when
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does that appear under clause 8? CHIEF MAJEKE : 9 (2) .
you go about planting them? In any case , we have not yet made plans about planting, but only of preserving .
I am referring to clause MR. H.H. 336.
ZIBI :
Mr. Chairman, clause 9
MR. KUTU:
(2), with regard to this provision, let us say here is a herdboy moving along the protected forest and he sees a venomous snake climbing a tree in the indigenous forest. He walks in with the intention of destroying the snake . What would the position be then in terms of this section , because there will be disturbance and injury, perhaps , taking the snake away and destroying it, and perhaps it affects the trees.
Another small point - this is
not in clause 9 but it has just come to my mind. Some arable plots are in close proximity to these forests .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am not trying to stifle the question of the hon. member for Engcobo , but I will implore the hon. members to stick to the sections in order that we may be able to get through with this bill. We are now dealing with servitudes and there they are going for trees and other things growing on the outskirts of the forests . I thought the hon. members would dwell on this section and find out about servitudes and these things.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Where is the snake mentioned here ? MR. ZIBI : He sees a snake and climbs in to destroy the snake and destroys the tree in the process .
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman , the women collecting firewood in these forest areas are not permitted to carry axes .
Clause 9 put and agreed to . On Clause 10 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, in moving the adoption of this clause , allow me to explain a few things . This subclause (1 ) prevents the acquisition of servitudes and other permanent rights over a Government forest by prescription and provides that servitudes or other rights of a permanent nature may only be acquired or alienated with the approval of the Legislative Assembly. This is not a new provision as the same provision exists in both the Forest Act , No. 13 of 1941 , and the Trust Forest Regulations at present in force. Similar provisions have also been included in both the new Republican Forest Act (No. 72 of 1968) and the new Trust Forest Regulations . These provisions are very necessary as forestry is a very long-term undertaking involving a very large capital investment and it is therefore essential to protect the Government's interests and capital investment. Sub- clause (2) merely safeguards the rights of Government departments and other public bodies , permits the granting of temporary permission to occupy , and protects certain rights of the public , including the existing right to " theza" . Sub- clause 10 (3 ) permits the Minister in cases where rights exist to place certain restrictions on the use of these rights in order to preserve and regenerate the forests. Provisions 10 (3 ) (b) and (c ) permit the closure of forests to "theza" when necessary. This
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, the hon. member for Engcobo is doing exactly the same thing. He is now going for "theza" , which is provided in another section. MR. MAJIJA: Yes , I was just going to raise a point in connection with "theza " . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : be coming to it in section 14 .
We will
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : In the meantime you can read the definition in section 1 . What kind of servitudes MR. H.H. ZIBI : are referred to by the hon. Minister ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, in law there are certain rights which are acquired by persons after a certain period of time. For instance , the hon. member for Mount Fletcher might have grazed his stock on a certain land for a long period of time , until by law he has acquired a right to graze his cattle there . The hon. member might have driven his cattle on a certain path across a certain land for a number of years , until he acquired a right to use that path. He might have driven his cattle to go and drink in a certain portion of a stream over a number of years , until he acquired a right to drive his cattle to drink from that particular part of the stream. Those are the different types of servitude which are referred to here.
is not new, as provision for the closing of forests to " theza" already exists under the Trust Forest Regulations at present in force and this provision is necessary to prevent destruction of the forests and to facilitate regeneration. Sub- clause 10 (4) calls for no comment as it is self- explanatory.
Clause 10 put and agreed to . On Clause 11 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman, this is another clause ....
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , could the hon. Minister explain this ? We have always known that the collection of firewood refers to the dry wood found in the forest, but people are not permitted to carry axes with them to cut down the trees . We would like to know if any of this dry wood is also protected from being collected as firewood.
Mr.
Excuse me, THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : hon. member. Order , please . I wish the hon. members would listen when the hon. Minister is explaining because it saves a lot of questions . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I was just saying, Mr. Chairman, this is another of those clauses where I say it should be understood by hon. members , because it is directly It to the personal advantage of the people .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, "theza" for firewood as existing from early times , without the axe , is provided for here.
337 .
"
Clause put and agreed to.
provides for the issue of licences for the sale of forest produce , permits and other types of authorization where required in terms of this bill, and, as I said, normally it should call for no comment.
On Clause 13 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I may make a brief explanation on this clause . It prescribes the various ways in which forest produce may be sold or disposed of. It is necessary to provide for various methods of sale to suit the different types of produce , including sale out of hand or by private treaty, since the sale of timber and other forest produce is a complicated and highly specialized business . It would therefore be quite impractical to limit the sale to informal tender or public auction. It is also necessary to make provision in subsection 13 (3) for the furnishing of securities , as under long-term agreements the purchaser would be unable to pay the purchase price in full, and provision therefore has to be made for payment on monthly invoices . With that explanation I move the adoption of clause 13 .
MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether he realises how very profitable these indigenous forests are , because as I speak to him I know of trees which have grown to full maturity. The people would like to get to these trees and cut them down for use , but they are afraid because he has not given authority for these trees to be procured · to give his authority through the magistrate to the people that they can now or at some other time acquire the use of these trees . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: This is out of order because you are seeking what has been granted . Permission may be granted and we have gone through that section. The hon. Minister did not MR. MNYILA: refer to the magistrate to tell the people about these trees.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, there is something we would like clarified in regard to clause 13 (1 ) , the third paragraph where it says : "Provided further that the department may, with the approval of the Minister , make forest produce available free of charge for educational research , demonstration or advertising purposes . " I would like this clarified. It has always been the rule that when people want to fence in their school they should look for strong fence poles such as "Mthathi " and other similar trees that do not usually rot. Seeing that the ordinary wattle trees they usually use rot easily and quite often the school fences fall down, has the hon. Minister made provision that schools may obtain some of these strong trees for putting up fences ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the hon. member will be advised that as soon as we adjourn the session he will tell the people all about the provisions of this bill when it becomes the Act. He will be the person to say " Carry on" , in fact, because he will tell the people that they may be granted permission if they apply for it.
Under section 11 (1 ) we MR. H.H. ZIBI : would like the hon. Minister to motivate.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , I think you are asking for motivation by the Minister on clause 11 ( 1 ) and that is just what he has done .
MR. N. JAFTA: Before the hon. Minister answers the question, what is the position with regard to people who want to get saplings to grow in school premises or on their lands , but particularly in the schools , because that is where we need to grow trees ? I would like this point to be explained.
MR. ZIBI: I did not understand him well, Mr. Chairman. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : That is just what we were asking the members to do - to listen properly.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, in reply to the first question I think the hon. member should read that very carefully. It does not refer to fencing posts , but to educational purposes or, for instance , research, demonstration and advertising purposes . So for strong poles you have to apply to the rightful authorities to get fencing poles , because this refers to forest produce for educational purposes. Now, for transplants , hon. member for Qumbu, there the school will have to apply through the Education Department.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The position is that under sub- section (1 ) there are things which you may not do inthe forest without obtaining a permit. It says the department may issue licences , permits and other authorizations to enable you to do those things which you may not do without a permit or licence or authorization. That is all.
Clause 11 put and agreed to. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, perhaps the headman may cut down a tree to show the people that this particular tree is not to be cut down.
On Clause 12 MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, we would like to know whether this refers to sticks or to ordinary wood. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : the first line , (1 ) (a).
MR. ZIBI : What is the attitude to an applicant in the event that the educational , research , demonstration , advertising purposes may be geographically outside the Transkei ?
Read
338.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : would you like the attitude to be? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : not in this bill .
What
MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman , we would like to know from the hon. Minister if his presence in the portfolio he is holding now is going to change the order of things from what it was before.
That is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a personal reflection on the hon. Minister .
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : What is the position if a person wants to buy a pole and it is cut into a certain length and instead of allowing him to buy the full length he has to...
MR . ZIBI : Could we have an example of the kind of security referred to in this section?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I at one stage indicated that the hon. members across the floor had not much to say and that it would appear the whole purpose of some of them speaking is to try and apply brakes to the speedy proceeding of In any event, I would request the this bill. Chair to ask that hon. member to withdraw that remark because it is an imputation of imWhether it was a preamble proper motives .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is no security in section 13.
for anything to be said thereafter , it is nevertheless as an imputation of improper motives which we cannot allow.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is not in this section. MR. NKOSIYANE : It seems the Government is just trying to make money out of people.
MR. MNYILA : I withdraw the remark as he says I have made an unseemly remark.
MR. ZIBI : There is in (3) . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Any security money. You must satisfy the department that you will pay .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I had not even allowed you to speak . Now, will you withdraw that statement ?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Security to the satisfaction of the Secretary.
MR. MNYILA: Chairman.
I have already done so, Mr.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have not. You were not called upon to withdraw.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 14 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, again this clause deals with control and really there is nothing very new about it. It is the cutting and removal of forest produce without authorization in accordance with existing legislation. Sub- clause 14 (2 ) (a ) preserves the existing right to "theza " as laid down by Government Notice No. 987 of 1935 and as amended by Government Notice No. 1282 of 1942 , and prescribes the conditions under which the right to " theza " may be exercised . It should be noted that plantations , nature reserves and protection forests are excluded . This involves no change as these have always been excluded in the past. The conditions (i ) to (iv) are also the same as the existing conditions as laid down in Govern14 (2) (b) ment Notice No. 1282 of 1942. safeguards the existing right of a headman to authorize the cutting of unreserved trees in undemarcated forests or so- called " headmen's forests". 14 (3) permits travellers , campers and picnickers to gather dry firewood for their immediate requirements . This is the same as the existing legislation and requires no comment. Sub-clause (4) is the same as the existing legislation, except that the broad arrow mark has been substituted for the asterisk under the existing Trust Forest Regulations . Sub- clause (5) is similar to existing legislation except that the mark " XG " has been substituted for the mark " NT" under the existing Trust Regulations . 14 (6) - these provisions are the same as in the existing Forest and Trust Regulations in force at present . So you see, practically all is the same as in existing legislation and should require no further explanation.
MR. MNYILA : I have said I withdraw. I am referring to you, Mr. Chairman. Allow me therefore to continue . In 1967 a question arose in this Assembly as to whether in the forests which have been fenced in the people could collect firewood in the district of Tsomo. There were 32 such areas and it was said people could collect firewood except in eight of them , and they were mentioned specifically. If the hon. Minister wants me to mention those particular areas I will do so, but to save your time, Mr. Chairman, let me go on. In reply it was mentioned that people could collect firewood in all those forests except in eight of them . This was the motion that I am raising. There are slopes which have forests and trees where people collect their firewood. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , what clause are you discussing now? We are on clause 14.
MR. MNYILA: Yes , I am discussing 14 (a) , the right to "theza " . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Do you want the department to continue closing those other forests from " theza " ? In this section we are opening forests to "theza " . MR . MNYILA: If you listen you will find it is not as foolish as you think . After I have stated it you will find it is not so foolish. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What is it you want to know, because you are dealing with something that took place in 1947? 339.
MR. MNYILA: In 1967. In 1967 it was stated people could collect firewood .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, could we have 14 (b) explained?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It has already been said that this bill is being introduced to correct those irregularities .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You were at school. That is quite clear . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: The headman may be granted authority to grant permission.
MR. MNYILA : I would like you to give me a hearing, Mr. Chairman. When the people go to collect firewood in these forests you will find the officers in charge arresting them, even though they have no axes and have not broken any trees except to collect the fallen trees for making fires. They charge them and bring them before the court and they say the people have gone into the Government forests in which no-one is allowed, and then they are fined R4 a person. Why? I am referring this to you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. ZIBI : I will ask the Minister concerned to answer . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You know this. You are just delaying us . In fact, I know what you said outside . MR . B.S. MNYANI : We would like an explanation under 14 (2) (a) (ii) as regards the use of any vehicle , sledge or other conveyance. Seeing our children are no more used to carrying wood on their heads will the use of such vehicles be prohibited?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order....
MR. MNYILA : are doing this .
These are your officers who THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will give a brief explanation for his benefit. Inside the forest we do not want them at all , especially for "theza " , if it is true "theza" . Outside the forest area you may bring your sledges and you may load there and carry the stuff away, but not inside the forests .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We are dealing specifically with section 14 which provides for "theza" . In this bill we are not concerned with what has been happening in 1967 or 1968 , therefore let us stick to the section under consideration.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I believe we have sufficiently debated this clause. THE CHIEF MINISTER : People cannot be allowed to go to the forests as they please .
MR. ZIBI: I asked for motivation in regard to 14 (2) (b) "with the approval of the headman , etc. "
MR. MNYILA : I am on that point now. The hon. the Minister of Education may rise , making an attempt to teach me what I have already been told , but I would like to know from the hon. Minister why the people must be arrested when they "theza " , seeing that this clause that is put before the House still permits the people to collect firewood , whereas the people are arrested by people in his employ .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What do you want to know? The thing is self-explanatory . MR. ZIBI:
How does the headman come in?
: THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : authorized by the department.
He is
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The headman has never been excluded. There has always been provision for this.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : This is outside this bill. Those people have not been arrested under the provisions of this bill. MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman, under this section we are discussing there is reference to the forests under the chiefs and headmen. We note that such forests are gradually deteriorating. Isn't there a measure which can be taken to protect these , or to see that they remain in the state in which they were before? I appeal that this should be given attention so that whatever forests we have may be improved.
Clause 14 put and agreed to. On Clause 15 Mr. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Chairman, you will notice that this clause prescribes the measures of weight and volume to be used and the method of measurement to be used in relation to the sale of forest produce . The provisions of this clause are similar to those prescribed in the Forest Act , No. 13 of 1941. Normally, timber and most other forest produce are sold either by measurement or by weight, but it is necessary in sub- clause 15 (1) to insert these words "except as provided in any authorization" because certain forest produce, such as firewood, is also sold by head load or sledge load which do not conform to a standard measure of weight or volume. In 15 (2) (c ) it is also necessary to prescribe both actual and nominal measurements because in the timber trade certain timber is sold by
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Actually, although this is outside the scope of section 14 because we are talking about tribal or community forests now, but the communities or tribal authorities can employ their own rangers to look after the forests that belong to the chiefs and headmen. Those rangers will keep away trespassers who prowl about the forests with sharp, axes, felling every tree they come across , but nevertheless we are dealing with section 14 now which deals with Government forests , not forests belonging to headmen and chiefs.
340.
nominal measurement before planing or processing, e.g. shelving is sold as 1 " nominal thickness , but is actually planed to 7/8 " thickness . With that brief explanation, Mr. Chairman , I move the adoption. MR. H.H. ZIBI : on (4) .
undemarcated forests , as most of these are at present unfenced and adjoin grazing camps and it will therefore generally prove impractical to prevent stock from trespassing in these forests . With that brief explanation , Mr. Chairman , I move that this clause be adopted.
I would like an explanation MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : I would like some explanation on ( 1) (f) , where it is mentioned that an attempt will be made to prevent the destruction of game. I would like to mention that in some areas we have baboons which come out of the forest to destroy mealies and peaches . When these are chased from the lands they run into the forests where they live . Can a person chasing these animals not be allowed to enter the forest to destroy them and take away the mealies they have stolen from the lands ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is there anything for the Minister to explain? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Is it necessary, Mr. Chairman? It seems to be very direct, and what is more , it is taken from existing legislation. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, would I be wrong in saying you could only look at a tree and determine what the value is?
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I will just put in this question so that when you rise you answer my question also. I may well be camping near a forest and have with me a pet dog which is on a leash. Can I go into the forest without authorization if it is under such control? I may well be , again, the licensed possessor of a firearm which might be in my possession when I am out camping. I seek to pass through the forest or to saunter in the forest. Do I need authorization despite the fact that I have this licensed firearm ? Then, what is meant actually by saying "no person shall without authorization in or on any Government forest farm with bees"? Because when I look at (i ) , we are prohibited robbing or attempting to rob any beehive or disturb or remove any swarm of bees from a forest. Will the hon. Minister please explain?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Minister has moved and it has been seconded . Has he anything to say? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , Mr. Chairman.
Clause 15 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned . House Resumed
The
Deputy Chairman reported progress .
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 4th June , 1969.
TRANSKEI FOREST BILL - COMMITTEE STAGE
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You can chase your baboons outside the forest , but not into the forest. You are not allowed to go into the forest without authorization. Also , you cannot go into the forest without authorization with or without your dog or your firearms . You can only keep along the public road and not the road which particularly belongs to the forest.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House go into committee.
MR. GUZANA: Are you suggesting that even if I have the dog on a leash I cannot get into the forest?
WEDNESDAY , 4th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes . To farm with bees means you are not allowed to keep a beehive inside the forest.
THE MINISTER OF ROADS : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, the baboons are very much like human beings , because they have hands and whenthey have broken the mealiecobs from the stalks they make bundles and carry them away. They also carry smal ' pumpkins and if it happens to be a big one the baboon can carry it in one hand and run away with it.
The debate was resumed. On Clause 16 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this clause deals with the entry into, residence , camping , squatting , clearing and cultivation of land , grazing, etc. , in Government forests . Sub- clauses 1 , 3 and 4 are the same as in the existing regulations at present in force and therefore need no explanation. Subclause (2) deals with the control of grazing on forest reserves , Here it should be noted
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will you please get to the point and don't describe what the baboons do. MR. KUTU : When you are chasing this baboon it will be holding the pumpkin and will also have the mealies. Why must you turn back when it enters the forest ?
that an exception has been made in the case of
341 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am not going to allow the Minister to answer that because he has already answered it. Once you get to the forest it is finished . You cannot enter the forest.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I don't think the hon. member's question requires an answer from the hon. Minister at all. I believe there are no further comments on this clause so I shall put it to the House.
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman , on the same point raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , I would like the hon . Minister to make it clear to this side of the House as it is on the same question of baboons and monkeys stealing our maize . Usually we watch these baboons and monkeys because they come very early in the morning to rob our mealies . Say I have a licensed gun and I see the monkey in a tree , can I fire at it or will I be prevented from shooting it if it is in the forest?
Clause 16 put and agreed to.
On Clause 17 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This clause deals with the control of forestry roads and paths. It must be realised that forest roads are private departmental roads constructed for the administration and protection of the forests and plantations and for the extraction of timber and other forest produce and not for use by the public. Most of these forest roads are located on mountain slopes , are relatively narrow and therefore dangerous. Consequently it is very necessary to provide for the control and restricWith those tion of traffic on forest roads . explanations , I move that the clause be adopted.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Only your bullet enters the forest , not you. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If you will allow me to answer that, as the hon. the Minister of Education has said , as long as you do not enter the forest but only aim from outside the bounds....
Mr. Chairman , now MR. K.M. GUZANA: these roads which are constructed in forests for use by the department have also to be used by members of the public who go into the forest , for instance , to fetch timber or poles . Thus , having purchased wood from the department , for instance , I am legally entitled to use the departmental road to get to that stack of wood inside the forest. My contention is that I am lawfully using the road now to remove the stack of wood inside the forest when by reason of the surface of the road an accident occurs whilst I am moving along the road over to the stack , or from where the stack was , whilst still within the forest area. I hold that I am lawfully in the forest on a lawful purpose , having obtained authority to enter the forest and then an accident occurs as a result of the nature of the road...
MR. GUZANA : Are you suggesting I can kill a buck so long as I am outside the boundary? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : is another law.
That
MR. GUZANA : But I will not be infringing this law if I do that? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : be breaking (f).
You will
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Another point is , if any baboons trouble you you should draw the attention of the forester to it and he should surely be able to help you with reference to that menace .
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I just raise this point that, well and good , I have to get authorization to enter the forest with my dog or licensed firearm . What is the rank of the officer who should give me the authorization and if he is not there , what is the position? Am I to wait until he comes back? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : along the public road. MR. GUZANA : authorization?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: What section are you commenting on ? MR. GUZANA: I am commenting on section 17 , Sir, sub-paragraphs (a) and (b) . Hence , Sir, I want to know : Is the department not liable and if not, why not ? May I ask you to motivate sub- section (4) (b) in relation to the section quoted in the Transkei Constitution Act - that is , section 68?
Keep
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Section 68 says : " Nothing in this section contained shall affect any provision of any law which limits the liability of the Government of the Transkei or any department thereof in respect of any act or omission of its servants . " In using the private roads that is , the forest roads , apart from the public road going through to collect the wood that you have bought, you have a right to use the road but it is still a private road and the Government is not liable for any accidents which may take place there .
Which is the officer to give
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The officer in charge of the forest is the man to consult. He will give you the authorization. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: We would like information from the hon. Minister as to how we can reduce the number of these baboons , because in Our area we caught one, smeared it with red ochre and let it loose among the other baboons. Fearing this baboon which had red ochre , the rest of the baboons ran out of the forest and went to the Mbolompo forest. I want to know whether he has not any similar methods he could suggest for the driving away of these baboons.
MR . GUZANA : using the road?
Even though one is lawfully
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : 342.
Yes.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, some explanation may be necessary on some of the clauses here. Sub-clause (1 ) is a new provision which is worded practically verbatim as provided in section 12 (1 ) of the Republican Forest Act, No. 72 of 1968. In the existing Trust Forest Regulations , provision is made that no fire may be lighted within a quarter of a mile of a reserved forest or plantation, whilst provision is also made for the clearing and burning of firebelts . In this bill , however , these provisions have been omitted since provision for the clearing of firebelts and the lighting of fires outside Government forests under normal conditions are included in the Transkei Agricultural Development Act. Nevertheless conditions may at times become so dangerous that special precautions have to be taken in connection with the lighting of fires in the vicinity of Government forests , e.g. during periods of severe drought. This sub- clause is therefore necessary to grant the Minister powers to take special measures when such dangerous conditions occur. Sub-clause 18 (2) , provision is being made under section 29 (b) of the Agricultural Development Act for an officer of the Government to exercise these powers when a fire may become dangerous to life and property. This sub-clause therefore merely provides that when such a fire occurs within five miles of any Government forest, a forest officer may have the right to take charge . This is considered necessary because a forest officer will best be able to assess the potential danger to the forest or plantation and to take the necessary steps to combat such a fire . The provisions of subclause (3) are in accordance with existing legislation and therefore require no explanation. (4) provides that payment may be made for loss suffered by reason of any action taken by a forest officer under sub- clause 18 (2 ) and also that payment may be made for assistance rendered in protecting a Government forest from fire . In cases of a serious fire it is usually necessary to obtain assistance and in such cases it is accepted policy to pay such temporary labourers at current Government rates.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, in order to avoid that risk, is the department prepared to deliver produce bought by the public at the gate ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , if you pay for the transport. MR. GUZANA : You have not motivated (4) (b). You merely read me what I see in section 68. I want you to relate the two. You say in this paragraph (b) " subject to the provisions of section 68 of the Transkei Constitution Act" . The provisions of section 68 are (1 ) , (2) , (3) and (4). Now, you have only referred me to section 68 (4) (a) . How do sub- sections (1) , (2 ) , (3) and (4) relate to the provision in section 17 (4) (b) in the Forest Bill? I just want an explanation. I am not trying to put you in a corner.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I think the explanation in this matter is very simple , particularly to an attorney. MR . GUZANA :
We are not all attorneys .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Sub- section 68 ( 1 ) reads as follows : - "Any claim against the Government of the Transkei which would , if that claim had arisen against a person, be the ground of an action in any competent court, shall be cognizable by such court, whether the claim arises out of any contract , lawfully entered into on behalf of the Government of the Transkei or out of any wrong committed by any servant of that Government acting in his capacity and within the scope of his authority as such servant. " Now, under this section, subject to these provisions (and they are these provisions in this Constitution) then this section 17 says a person shall have no claim against the Government. MR. GUZANA : And yet you say any claim against the Government will be.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : Section 17 is subject to those provisions in the Constitution, section 68.
MR. GUZANA: THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It means you may have a claim on some of these in this section.
That will be 60 cents a day?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : will be fixed by the Secretary.
That
But the section THE CHIEF MINISTER : makes it specific that you shall have no claim in respect of " any injury , loss or damage sustained or suffered by him in the use by him or on his behalf of any such road or path" .
MR. GUZANA : You said " at current rates ". What are the current rates ?
MR. GUZANA : Right, a servant of the Government is working on this road , causes an obstruction which leads to an accident, what action can a person take?
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, sub- section (4) (a) , here is a forester faced with a serious fire and he enlists the assistance of certain men in that locality. Say, perhaps , the Government pays out through the forester those men and the money does not get to the men who assisted , but ends with the forester. What happens in a case like that?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : less than that at present.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Well, that is the case you would have to put up against the Government, but there must be a provision to protect the Government from any such claims.
It is
MR. GUZANA : May I just ask for some information under section 18? May I know from the hon. Minister what the minimum safety belt is between the boundary of a forest and the
Clause 17 put and agreed to. On Clause 18 343.
nearest kraal ? Please don't avoid this question by saying it depends on the topography of the (Laughter) ground or something like that.
Clause 18 put and agreed to. On Clause 19 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , this is a new provision which has been taken practically verbatim from section 10 of the Republican Forest Act ( Act No. 72 of 1968). This clause is necessary because the Republican Minister of Forestry has introduced compulsory grading of structural timber throughout the Republic with effect from 1st April , 1969 , and provision has been made for such timber to carry the Bureau of Standards mark. As a large proportion of the sawn timber produced by Government sawmills , and also private sawmills and sawyers in the Transkei , is marketed in the Republic, it is essential that the Transkei Government should introduce similar legislation to enable it to apply similar grading rules and to provide for inspection and control and the improvement of the quality of timber produced in the Transkei . I consequently move that this clause be adopted .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You know it depends on that. You are just anticipating the reply. MR. GUZANA : I know that is the sort of thing the hon. Minister does . Secondly, may I know your policy in regard to fire detection posts in forests ? One sometimes wonders whether or not there is sufficient protective activity on the part of the department to foresee the eventuality of a forest fire breaking out, and what fire-fighting equipment you usually have at a forest station in order that speedy action may be taken to control or reduce the loss that may result from a forest fire. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , I think the hon. member has already answered himself in regard to the first question. Normally, it should be a hundred yards . However , it will be necessary to study the topography of the country, ( Laughter) and any other specific conditions which may assist .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : I would like the hon. Minister to motivate (4). THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He has just motivated. He has told you what the clause implies . You don't know the meaning of motivation.
MR. GUZANA: Taking those into account, what is the widest you have had to lay down? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We are giving you the normal.
MR. ZIBI : Under this section there may be How do persons who will lodge objections . they make their objections to the office ?
MR . GUZANA: Yes , but what is the widest by reason of the topography, direction of wind, etc.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: your question?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Three hundred yards . Now, there are lookout posts in the forests and these are also provided with special equipment, even with wireless connection so that help can come in from other forests .
MR.
ZIBI:
What is
I am waiting for the Minister .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We don't know what your question is.
MR . GUZANA : You mean that all observation posts can link up with adjacent posts quickly for help ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We are not clear about your question.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , even with the central department here in Umtata.
MR. ZIBI : If it is not clear , Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister has not said anything.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman , it may happen in an effort to save the forest from fire that one of the people who has come to assist in fighting the fire falls and dies as a result of burns . Is it possible for the department to compensate such an individual?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Minister , by the way, must have permission to answer a question. He cannot just stand up and answer a question.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : is provision for compensation . MR. "may" .
MR. ZIBI : The position is , the Minister I am has not said he does not understand. putting the question to the hon . Minister through the Chairman.
There
The trouble is it is always ZIBI: When does the "may" become "must"?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Ihave not understood your question. What is your question? The Minister must have permission to answer a question.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Never.
MR. ZIBI : to drop it.
MR. ZIBI: If the department decides not to pay compensation how can that man's family survive ?
Mr. Chairman, I have decided
Clause 19 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : becomes "must " when you go to court.
It only On Clause 20 344.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This clause prescribes the special powers of forest officers and other officers in relation to forest offences . The special powers defined in the various sub- clauses are the same as the existing powers as laid down in the Trust Forest Regulations and in the Forest Act , No. 13 of 1941 , at present in force . The only addition is the power under sub- clause 20 (3 ) (e ) to destroy any dog found trespassing or hunting any game in a Government forest without authorization. This power exists under the provincial ordinance but it has been considered necessary to include this provision in the bill to prevent any doubt or misunderstanding. I therefore move that this clause be adopted .
provisions of this section for merely holding aloft her insignia of faith. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : what point you are driving? MR. MADIKIZELA :
At prosecutions under
(c). THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: regulation for permission.
But there is a
MR. K.M. GUZANA: On a point of order , I think the Chairman is taking upon himself the duties of the Minister . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, but I don't want to delay the proceedings . MR. GUZANA : But it is the Minister who must decide what reply to give . May I crave your indulgence on that, Sir.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman, you will bear with me , Sir, if my remarks sound a little awry . Under this section are included section 14 , 16 and 18 so that my remarks might reach far and wide , Sir.
20
May I know to
MR. MADIKIZELA: May I continue , Sir ? I think the hon. Minister, if he will take constructive advice from this side of the House , these possible prosecutions could be cut down by more than half if the hon. Minister were to embark on an extensive scale of building up 'woodlots all over the Transkei. I am thinking of the wattle tree , for instance , which in five years' time is sufficiently mature to be felled so that the problem of firewood is solved no possible prosecutions therefore there.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is that Clause · Special Powers of Various Officers ?
MR . MADIKIZELA : Yes, sub- section (3) (a) . I was relieved at one time when the hon. Minister said he was merely regularizing a position already obtaining in the Transkei by means of his bill , but now sub- section (3 ) ( c) seems to raise my alarms once more . It reads : " seize any forest produce in respect of which such officer has reason to believe that an offence under this Act has been committed" . If you travel to Kokstad through Qumbu; if you travel Queenstown; through Engcobo to if you Butterworth travel through Idutywa and to East London; if you travel through Libode to Port St. John's you will meet countless Africans each holding a stick in his hand and if you look closely at that stick you will find it belongs to a class of tree protected and reserved . Now, if the officers of the department were to take it upon themselves to apply the law assiduously how many people would be prosecuted under this ? If the hon. Minister were to walk across to the hon. representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland you will find that the hon. member will have a club , and if you will look at that club you will find it belongs to one or other ofthese protected trees . The same applies to the hon. representative of His Excellency the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland. He also selected a sturdy stick from the forest at Tabankulu to support his age with it . (Laughter) If you will look at that stick again you will find it also belongs to the class of illicit trees. If you were to walk into the bedroom of every single member of this Chamber you will find a stick or two , also of illicit trees . I have no doubt that the hon. member for Matatiele , Mrs. Mzozoyana, is a member of the Women's Guild and no doubt she has got her stick of salvation. (Laughter) I don't know if the hon. members , Chieftainess Nozizwe and Miss Sigcau , have seriously considered taking the stick of salvation yet. If they seriously consider doing so they are also potential offenders under this. (Laughter) I shudder to think of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition hard put to it to defend Mrs. Guzana upon a charge of infringing one or other of the
THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I just want to explain to the hon. member that this is not a new provision in the Forest Act. These prohibitions have been there before, but during the ages we have been carrying these sticks and we have been having them all along, and the law cannot be arbitrarily applied against law- abiding citizens . However , the State must have a provision to prohibit people who go running into the forests and cutting these trees without the permission of the forester . You will appreciate that some of these sticks are purchased by the owners in different centres . The sticks you have referred to... MR. MADIKIZELA: The one you keep under your bed? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , any stick - you usually get them from the men who come from the urban areas. It is very rare for a man to keep a stick. They are usually used by boys flogging each other in play, but I just want to make it clear that the law must make a provision of this nature to prohibit the indiscriminate cutting of forests by irresponsible people . There is nothing new in it. It is provision which has always been there. MR. MADIKIZELA: going to continue ?
And the old laxity is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I say the law is not applied unreasonably. You will appreciate that, but when the people have to enter a forest now and again to cut this wood if this provision is not there , where shall we end? MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I welcome this observation, save that I am not going to be
345.
bound to anything just because it has been in existence for many years or generations. In fact, I am half moved to challenge the Government side to a stick-fight outside here and see what will happen. (Laughter) That is by the by, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You should have said that in the absence of someone behind you . MR. GUZANA : Oh, no , she will cheer me all the way. I speak to section 20 (1 ) - that very dangerous , ill- defined phrase "at all reasonable times". I take it that that means during the day and not at midnight, but I want the hon. Minister to explain this phrase in relation to the time when the tree is cut and the time when the authorization is demanded from the person who cut the tree . I am raising this point because I know men who have said: "I have had this block of wood in my kraal site for three years and now I am being prosecuted. " He cannot be expected to still retain in his possession the original authorization for him to get that piece of wood from the forest. May I get some explanation on that score ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, it is the duty of the person to see that he retains his authorization for all time .
MR. GUZANA: But the onus is on the possessor . He says he obtained a permit to cut this tree down some three or four years back. What else can he say about it? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, what court is going to convict a man for having been in possession of a block of wood for so many years? MR. GUZANA : It is happening - that is why I am worried . You say we must protect forest produce otherwise you are going to convict us. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes, he says he had a permit but the permit is lost. I think the onus on the possessor is not an absolute onus. It shifts quickly back to the State. MR. GUZANA: But the court will not believe him because they are preoccupied with protecting the forests. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But the people who arrest him are merely arresting him on suspicion and once he says he got a permit for this what court is going to expect a man to keep a permit for seven years , as the Minister said? (Laughter)
MR. GUZANA : You see, Mr. Minister , I asked you to give a reasonable time . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : still substantiate it.
MR. GUZANA: That is unreasonable.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You see, as the man can give a reasonable exsoon as planation the onus shifts back to the State and it is the State that must rebut now that the man never had a permit.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is usually a reasonable time fixed in the law which you should know better than I do. MR. GUZANA: What is the reasonable time ? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : seven years .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : is responsible.
MR . GUZANA: The State merely says they have no record of such a permit having been issued and where is the possessor now ? He has no access to the documents .
Over
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think he is pulling our leg, surely. Mr. Minister , will you give us a responsible answer . That
MR. GUZANA : Is it possible for anyone to keep that permit for a period of seven years ? You see , this is worrying the people who draw forest produce under authority , and the authority is destroyed or lost or misplaced . Two or three years later a forest officer says : "How do you come by this pole ?" The poor fellow is prosecuted for possession without authority after all that time .
I can
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He must bring the forester to say they have no record of it. MR. GUZANA : that?
Now, how is he going to do
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : an attorney must call them for him.
You as
MR. GUZANA : These people who go into the forest to cut wood may not have the money to employ an attorney. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The forester will have to produce his records .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think this provision should be taken in line with any other substances which might be suspected of having been obtained illegally. All that is required is that the person should give a satisfactory explanation of his possession and, as my learned friend across the floor, the hon. member for Mqanduli , is aware , a satisfactory explanation is such as might reasonably be true. It need not be true, as long as it might reasonably be true .
MR. GUZANA: There are numerous prosecutions taking place just over this point. Many people are convicted and sentenced just under this. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , there are many prosecutions on produce which is fresh, not on a log of wood which was obtained about seven years ago. 346.
MR . GUZANA : I am not speaking of fresh produce . I am speaking of old timber that has been found at their kraals . They have been prosecuted and convicted on that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION:
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does that satisfy the hon. member ? MR.
ZIBI :
Thank you,
Mr.
Chairman.
Where ?
Clause 20 put and agreed to. MR. GUZANA : Transkei.
It is happening all over the
On Clause 21 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, in sub- clause (1) the offences mentioned are all in accordance with existing legislation and require no comment. The penalities provided are also in accordance with those prescribed in the Transkei Agricultural Development Act, No. 10 of 1966 , and other similar Acts. Sub-clause ( 2) , the Act No. 24 of 1886 mentioned is the Transkeian Territories Penal Code and this sub- clause merely provides that part of any fine can be awarded to an informer. This is in accordance with existing laws . ( 3) provides for the award of damages and is in accordance with existing legislation. (4) - This provision is necessary in order to empower the courts to order the removal of illegal structures or crops . A similar provision exists in section 23 of the Forest Act No. 13 of 1941 , and in the new Republican Forest Act, No. 72 of 1968 , and with that explanation I move that the section be adopted .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : During the time I was at Engcobo where there were many prosecutions on this very enactment, it was only on fresh produce, not on old wood . Nobody is expected to keep a permit over the years , least of all our people who will lose a permit within a matter of a month. CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman, I would like an explanation from the hon. Minister in regard to section 20 (3) (e ) . I am thinking of myself walking along with my dog, looking for my lost sheep ... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : forest?
In the
CHIEF ZULU: I may find the sheep having been killed by a jackal and eaten by the jackal, and the dog chases the jackal into the forest. Is there any provision to protect such a dog, seeing it does not know anything about the law when it chases a jackal into the forest in circumstances such as I have mentioned? A dog is an animal just like the jackal is .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Now , Mr. Chairman , my point becomes more prominent now that we look at section 21 (1) (g) and (h) , so that the man who has in his possession forest produce which is old is required to satisfy the court that he has a lawful right to possess and this may be required of him after five years' Under (g) they say if continued possession. he refuses or fails to produce the authorization then he shall be guilty of an offence , and if I may crave your indulgence , Sir , when I look at clause 22 (1 ) and (2 ) on evidence , it shall be deemed that a person has possession without authorization until he produces the same to the court.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Actually, no forest officer will go and destroy a dog found In fact, the foresters would chasing vermin. praise you instead if they found you chasing a jackal . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, sub- section (5) (a) and (b) - here is somebody accepted by society as being very decent and because of power which sometimes corrupts some of these officers he is stopped by the forester on suspicion. Say he is a man such as the hon. Minister himself. He tries to convince the forester that there is no ground for suspicion but the official becomes adamant. He remains on his point and will not budge and in the end, according to this , he can take no action. Mark you, he has been subjected to such indignity, why then must we not sue for damages?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Where is that? MR. GUZANA : Section 22 (2 ) . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. member propose to deal with both sections now?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I thought you mentioned (a ) and (b) ? That does not seem to be speaking about the arrest of anyone , but only of the detention of produce .
MR. GUZANA: I am merely mentioning that in order to explain the point I am canvassing under clause 21 (g) and (h) , because this seems to negative the explanation given to me previously, that if a man says he had a permit then the onus passes back to the State . It would appear now that the onus continues to be on the accused and he must produce authorization even after seven years as the hon. the Minister of Agriculture suggested . Can we have some explanation in relation to that sub- paragraph, bearing in mind the provisions of section 22 and also what was said when we were dealing with section 20?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He is on this point, that when an officer reasonably suspects produce to have been unlawfully obtained from the forest and the forest official takes possession of that produce and detains it, and thereafter it is proved that the person lawfully obtained the produce he wants to know why there can be no action against the official . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : If it is on reasonable grounds there is no reason why he should take any action against the official .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chair-
347 .
The debate was adjourned.
man and hon. members , we seem to be arguing from the premise that the person found in possession of what is suspected to be forest produce was at all times alone during the course of his transaction. In section 22 (2) any person charged with doing any act for which, by this Act, an authorization is required shall be deemed to be without such authorization unless he produces the same to the court, or gives other satisfactory proof of possessing the same. MR . GUZANA : It is destroyed.
The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave your indulgence and that of the House . On looking up the order paper this morning I noticed in the last page the second reading of the Transkei Agricultural Development Amendment Bill, 1969 , which I thought I had stated in the House here should be appearing on Wenesday, 4th June. In fact, I omitted mentioning it at the time because I did not see any other date , whereas now I learn from the Secretary that it is placed there because it is intended for Thursday. I wish to make the request to you, Mr. Chairman , and the House that we would like this second reading to come on immediately after the committee stage of the Forest Bill , with the hope that we are going to finish the Forest Bill today.
He no longer possesses it.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : possessing the produce.
No, of
MR. GUZANA: No, of the permit. It says "shall be deemed to be without such authorization unless he produces the same to the court" . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: " ...or gives other satisfactory proof of possessingthe same. " That is the produce . MR. GUZANA : authorization.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree?
No, it is possessing the
MR. K.M. GUZANA: No, that is not the business of this committee , surely.
Then THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : how can he bring some other proof of possessing the authorization which he does not possess?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the House is now in committee considering the committee stage of the Forest Bill and I think the hon. Minister can raise or make that request when the House is sitting ordinarily.
MR. GUZANA: That is why I say the accused is in a very awkward position. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Let us get You say this refers to the this straight . authorization, now how can he be required to give proof of possessing the authorization which he does not possess ?
TRANSKEI FOREST BILL-COMMITTEE STAGE The
debate
on
Clause
21 was resumed.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I wonder if we had finished our discussion on (g) and (h) so that we can go further?
MR. GUZANA : All right, he may bring friends who were present when the authorization was given to say they saw the officer giving the authorization to him.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , may I understand from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that here a great deal of reasonableness will be the criterion in determining whether or not a person is under an obligation to prove his possession of a piece of wood which might well be protected forest produce ? And that probably this matter may be governed by regulation which will be by way of an indication of how this section is to be interpreted so that no undue hardship is brought upon the public ? I accept that where a person is in possession of, shall I say, green or fresh produce then he may well be required to prove lawful possession by producing his authorization, but where that possession is explained and indicated the department should not be in too great a hurry to see that people are arrested and prosecuted. May I understand that to be the intention behind section 21 , although it is not specifically so provided that that will be the interpretation given to these provisions?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is just what I say when I say we are arguing on the premise that the possessor has always been alone at all times when he either went to get the authorization, or that nobody ever saw the authorization. MR. GUZANA: Do we agree then that "or other satisfactory proof of possessing the same " refers to possession of the authorization rather than to forest produce? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , that is the thing.
MR . GUZANA: It is a heavy onus.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , otherwise the department would never be able to control the unlawful removal of forest produce if at all the onus remained on the State at all times. (Interjections) No, we want to control the forests - we don't want to just arrest people.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, definitely it is not the intention of the department to run people unnecessarily into trouble, so that I agree entirely that reasonableness will be the criterion. Maybe some over348.
enthusiastic person here and there may try to get people into trouble , but wherever that can be avoided we will give instructions to that effect.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman, may I put a question on this particular section to the Under (i) as regards grass hon. Minister ? fires , if a person is seen going past and thereafter a fire is seen in the area when he was not actually seen setting the grass on fire , how will it come about that a person travelling along suddenly finds himself prosecuted? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, (i) (i) reads as follows : "in any Government forest - (i) leaves unattended, before it is thoroughly extinguished , a fire which he , with or without authorization , has lighted or assisted in lighting or used or rekindled or to which he has added fuel... " That is the fire he himself has kindled or rekindled or used.
Clause 21 put and agreed to . On Clause 22
the offence . The State , therefore , should prove that negligence because before it contemplates a prosecution it avers that there has been negligence and therefore the accused need rebut the allegations of fact which support the allegation of negligence , those allegations of fact by evidence having been made by the State . Fore instance , the State may say the fire spread from outside the forest into the forest and it says there is negligence . I contend that the State should then lead evidence to the effect that despite the fact that you were aware of a strong wind blowing in the direction of the forest from the fire which you had kindled , you neglected to put out this fire adequately. Then the accused has to disprove this fact which presupposes that there was negligence on his part. You see, the prosecution may take place two or three months after the act. How is this person going to remember that on a particular day the wind was blowing very hard and that he did this , that and the other thing to make assurance doubly sure that the fire had been properly put out if, indeed , the onus of disproving negligence rests upon his shoulders . I hold that the State cannot find difficulty in proving certain acts which will constitute negligence and then the accused can lead rebutting evidence . Can we have a comment on this?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, the provisions of this clause are in accordance with existing legislation both in the Forest Act No. 13 of 1941 and the Trust Forest Regulations . In cases of the theft of forest produce it is normally not possible to prove that the produce was obtained from a particular tree or forest, and it would therefore virtually be impossible to secure a conviction unless it is assumed that the produce is the property of the Government. In the case of forest fires it is necessary to presume negligence , since it is practically impossible to prove negligence after a fire as the evidence has generally been destroyed in the fire , so the onus is on the accused to prove his innocence . Hence I move that this section be adopted .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think with regard to section 22 ( 1 ) and (2) the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will in fact agree that this can be solved administratively by regulation, because if these sections are applied unreasonably they can cause a lot of hardship as far as the people are concerned , but at any rate they have got to be there to protect the forest. I am thinking, for instance , that under the definition of forest produce there are various things contained there like bees and beehives , for instance . If you are found in possession of a beehive it might be alleged that you got that hive from the forest. MR. GUZANA :
Or even a stone , you know.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes , even sand, and that is why I say these things can be solved administratively by regulation, but with regard to sub- section ( 3) , that is the question of negligence with regard to fires , I think surely anybody who goes and makes a fire close to or near a forest is running a big risk. A fire is a thing that spreads very easily
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , I have commented on the provisions of this section in anticipation when we were dealing with section 21. My greatest complaint is that the onus placed on the accused is very, very heavy indeed . I do appreciate the fact that difficulties may be met with if that onus is not placed on the accused . All the same, where you have the State making an averment it should itself discharge the onus that rests on it to prove the onus of the offence . I hope that your concurrence when dealing with my remarks on section 21 will apply also with section 22 (1 ) and (2 ) . Looking at section 22 (3) I am faced with a few problems. This subsection says that whenever in any proceedings under this Act the question of negligence in respect of forest fires arises , negligence shall be presumed unless the contrary is proved. In other words , before the State brings an action it presupposes that there has been negligence . In other words , there must be certain acts on the part of the accused or a failure to perform certain acts on the part of the accused which are within the knowledge of the prosecution before it brings an action where negligence is part of
and if a person makes such a fire he surely must take all precautions to see that the fire does not spread, and if that fire does spread as far as the forest surely negligence on his part must be presumed. Now, if at all the State is going to be expected to say that despite a strong wind the person failed to take precautions then the State will be making a case very easy for the person who might have been negligent, because after two months , for instance , the person might deny even the fact that there was wind on that particular day and it may be very difficult for the State to prove that there was wind on that day. MR. GUZANA : All right, but that is not the attitude of the courts. The courts are not seeking to convict, but to mete out justice .
349.
וה
that. My quarrel is that the officer to whom the powers were delegated , who is exercising those powers, may find that the Minister is simultaneously exercising the same powers .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: But the position is that you want to place the court in such a position that the court must make it very easy for the accused to conduct his own case . As I say, a person making a fire near the forest must take all necessary precautions to see that that fire does not spread and it is reasonable to place the onus on the accused to show he was not negligent .
THE CHIEF MINISTER : That cannot happen. MR. GUZANA:
THE CHIEF MINISTER : It gives what we call " concurrent jurisdiction" so that the Minister does not divest himself of the powers which he has delegated to the officials of his department, because there will be a time when these powers will have to be exercised by him although he has delegated them . For example , in a Government department the Minister can delegate powers of, say, dismissal , suspension and so on, to the Secretary or to the senior officials of the department apart from the Secretary but it does not mean that the Minister is divesting himself of those powers. This is just the usual procedure in administration.
MR. GUZANA : So you make it difficult for him to secure an acquittal. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I make it difficult for him to make a fire if he cannot control it. MR. GUZANA: No, to get an acquittal. am not satisfied with this .
I
Clause 22 put and agreed to . On Clause 23
Mr. Chairman, I do not MR. GUZANA : contend that the Minister who has delegated the powers has lost his right to exercise those powers . What I contend is that whilst the official is exercising those powers by delegation, before the Minister now exercises the very same powers ....
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the necessity for section 23 is self-evident and so it should be accepted .
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 24
THE CHIEF MINISTER: That does not arise in administration.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Again, Mr. Chairman, this is a clause which simply mentions delegation of powers by the Minister to certain officers and by the Secretary to other officers and I move that it be adopted .
MR. GUZANA : .... he should revoke his delegation to the lower official . THE CHIEF MINISTER: happen.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , section 24 (2) - the Minister may revoke such delegated functions but here we have a provision whereby, in spite of the fact that the delegation is still in full force and effect, the Minister can act in respect of that delegated function. In other words, you have the officer to whom certain functions have been delegated exercising his powers under those functions and at the same time the Minister exercising the same powers and functions . Shouldn't the provision rather insist that it is only on the cancellation of that delegated authority that the Minister then functions?
No , that does not
MR. GUZANA: Isn't it quite possible that there can be an exercise of these functions.... THE
CHIEF MINISTER :
Simultaneously?
MR. GUZANA : Simultaneously at cross purposes between the Minister and the official? No , it does not THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , happen. what is suggested by the hon. member never arises in administration, in that a Minister can never deal with any matter without having considered a recommendation from the Secretary who acts in consultation with the various branches of the department. So no Minister can deal with matters over which he has given powers to his officials simultaneously with those officials . I am speaking as an experienced administrator when I say that no Minister ever deals with anything in his department without his officials knowing about it.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I do not find anything to worry about in this section because when the Minister delegates powers it is the officers who exercise the delegated powers who will come to the Minister and say: We want you to see to this matter . The Minister does not just take steps to deal with matters when they are not brought to him by the officers of his department. In administration all matters originate from the junior officials · from the forester to the junior officials right up to the Secretary until they reach the Minister, and if any matter comes to the Minister direct he cannot act on that matter until he brings it to the notice of the Secretary who will make inquiries about it. You cannot exclude the Minister altogether .
MR. GUZANA :
Then why include it here?
MR. GUZANA : There are some obstinate Ministers , you know. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No, it never happens because every Minister works hand in hand with the Secretary of the department and the Secretary has got to do everything in consultation with the various senior officials of his department.
I am not quarrelling with 350.
ing on land which is lawfully occupied by any other person, since at present persons may camp on approved seaside resort sites leased by the Seasides Resorts Board. With that explanation, Mr. Chairman, I move the adoption of section 26.
Clause 24 put and agreed to .
On Clause 25 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this restriction is very necessary to protect the Government and the officials concerned. Besides, it is similar to section · 28 of the Forest Act, No. 72 of 1968 , and I therefore move that it should be adopted.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: I notice that Proclamation No. 3 of 1949 is not listed among the proclamation amended . That was probably an omission.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Now, you see , the department is really not fair to the public. It wants to have its own cake and eat it. On the one hand it presumes negligence on the part of the accused and now it protects its officers by saying they always act in good faith. What is the poor public whom you are governing going to do? What redress will they have against a negligent department and its officers ? THE CHIEF MINISTER : that they are negligent.
Clause 26 put and agreed to. On Clause 27 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, this clause provides for the repeal of existing laws and regulations , and safeguards authorizations and agreements issued under The clause is self-exexisting legislation . planatory and calls for no further comment, hence I move its adoption.
You have to prove
MR . GUZANA : That is the trouble , but in the other connection the accused is presumed to be negligent and I feel that here again the officers are unduly protected. I think both parties should walk into a civil action without having a handicap in favour of the officer of the department. All that the officer has to say is : I did this in good faith · and then the onus is on the plaintiff to prove negligence of the officer. Usually when a departmental inquiry is instituted and there is the possibility of the Government or the department paying damages , then the inquiry tends to find that the officer did act in good faith. That is what happens , and yet it is the public who must be protected from the negligence and inefficiency of the officers employed by a department which deals with the public . I feel there is a tendency to cushion the Government and it can get away with murder almost in these sections .
Clause put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, before passing on, as it has been accepted, I may mention that this proclamation (No. 3 of 1949) is not being repealed, but only amended. On Clause 28 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The object of this clause is to provide for the better protection of private forests . Although there are at present very few private forests in the Transkei this may not always be the case. It is therefore considered necessary to enable the Minister, if requested by the owners , to apply any of the provisions of this bill to private forests in order to ensure their better protection. Also, the wording of this clause is similar to that of section 2 of the Forest Act, No. 72 of 1968. I therefore move the adoption.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We make the laws , and not the public.
Clause put and agreed to. MR . GUZANA:
But they affect the public . Clause 29 and Schedules 1 and 2 put and agreed to.
Clause 25 put and agreed to. On Clause 26
The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, camping along the Transkei coast has greatly increased in popularity and it is becoming essential to restrict and control this camping . At present the Government's hands are tied because , according to Proclamation No. 3 of 1949 , persons may camp for up to four days anywhere within three miles of the coast, including forest reserves , without permission. This is therefore making the protection and administration of the forest reserves along the coast very difficult. This clause has therefore been included on the advice of the law adviser in order to prohibit unrestricted camping on forest reserves within three miles of the coast without permission . At the same time the law adviser has also taken the opportunity to amend Proclamation No. 3 of 1949 by prohibiting camp-
House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Transkei Forest Bill has been adopted by this committee without amendment . THE CHAIRMAN : reading?
What date for the third
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, tomorrow, the 5th June , I hope . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , there was a request that the second reading ofthe Transkei Agricultural Development Amendment Bill be taken today. Does the House agree ? 351 .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: No, Mr. Chairman. First of all , I do not think any request has been made to the Chairman about this matter. You might have heard about it whilst sitting in committee , but no request has been made to you, Sir. Secondly, Sir, the second reading of this bill was not intended to be part of the order paper for today. If it had been so intended it would have appeared in the list of items appearing in the order paper, and it is the business committee which actually should decide what items shall appear on the order paper for the day. This House cannot usurp that power at all. After all , there are certain hon. members of this House who are members of that business committee, among whom I can name the hon. the Chief Minister, and how dare you? (Laughter) So I am certainly opposed both to a request and to the granting of request, on purely constitutional lines.
the head of Chief Hintsa was taken to Cape Town and while it was still dripping blood some people went and settled in St. Mark's area. MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Nonsense ! MR. MNYANI : I am trying to show that if historical research is made as to the owners of the land then we may cause trouble and feuds. (Interjections ) Otherwise , we might be causing Congo trouble and such things as are taking place in Nigeria. (Interjections ) This motion by the hon. Chief Majeke is trying to make it very clear that those chiefs who desire to attain paramountcy cannot attain such a status . We on this side of the House wish that this habit of the Government side of giving promises to chiefs in return for support of their party should come to an end. (Interjections ) That is one of the reasons why we cannot make the advances in administration that we should be making. It causes the paramount chiefs who are already in power to be despised by the chiefs who are being given promises that they will be made chiefs . I can say without fear that an attitude of that kind was instilled amongst the Qwati people at Engcobo. Quite recently Chief Mayeza said they would not pay a beast to the Dalindyebo people because several of their beasts have been paid there without return . This attitude is gradually gaining ground and there is a tendency to despise paramount chiefs which is growing steadily. (Interjections) The Konjwayo tribe here also think they can have a paramount chief. To show that you are merely deceiving these chiefs by promising them paramountcy, when the Bomvanas wanted a paramount chief you told them to go to the Gcaleka area. If you are sincere , why don't you give them a paramount chief? Where there are chiefs of equal status in any area I think this idea of a chief trying to get paramountcy should come to an end altogether. Constant feuds and quarrelling among them in such an area may even result in the chieftainship they have coming to an end because they will be despised by their own subjects. Progress in different walks of life will be hindered by this attitude . There is a tendency to equate political affiliations with loyalty to the chiefs, since the chiefs were made part and parcel of the political set-up in this country. The contention that the chiefs should vote in a certain way and not separate from their people will bring in difficulties.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is no request, hon. member , so we go on to Motion 11. THE CHAIRMAN: We shall therefore resume our debate on Motion 11. PROHIBITION OF DESIGNATION OF PARAMOUNT CHIEFS IN REGIONS COMPRISING DIFFERENT TRIBES The debate was resumed. MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the motion by the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke to the effect that if a region is composed of different tribes there should not be any paramount chief. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What do you know about it? You live in the town.
MR . MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, the different tribes obtained possession ofthe land in different ways. Some obtained land by asking for it from the paramount chief of the area and, as we learned, the amaQwati by paying a beast became the members of the Tembu tribe. They did not fight for the land on which they are settled. Even at this time there is a tribe that came from Gqogqora which is now part of the land belonging to a tribe in Tsolo and they regard the Paramount Chief of the Tembus as their But there (Interjections ) paramount chief. are other tribes who obtained the use of a portion of the land by helping a certain nation in its wars . After they had shown bravery and courage in war a portion of the land was given to them, such as was given to the Zizi tribe at Dalindyebo region. There are other tribes who helped a nation which was fighting against another nation, such as the tribes which helped the English when the English were fighting against the different nations in this country. When those tribes were being thanked for the assistance they had rendered they were allowed the use of a portion of land, such as some tribes There are . other in Fingoland and Emboland. tribes who, when other tribes were waging war on each other, sat in wait until one tribe vacated a particular area and then went and settled there. An hon. member from Cofimvaba told us that
THE CHAIRMAN: That is out of the motion. MR. MNYANI: I am pointing out a difficulty and a handicap. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : is out of the motion.
Sit down, please.
That
MR. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman.... THE CHAIRMAN: to say. Sit down.
I said you had nothing
MR. E.A. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , let us try to be quiet because this is a delicate matter we are dealing with. I am going to stick to the truth and will not
352.
one time found someone in a tent and asked for shelter, and thereafter it kicked out the owner of the tent. ( Laughter)
take any sides . We are here to represent those who have complaints . The hon. Chief Majeke is complaining and in our Xhosa idiom we have a saying which says we should try to separate people who are struggling. Before I go any further I shall ask a few questions from the hon. Chief Majeke. This is my first question: I want to know if he had consulted the many tribes which he says reside in Qumbu area. Secondly, to find what generation he belongs to from his forebears. If this House will permit me I ask to be seated now so that the hon. Mr. Majeke can reply to those two questions. Well , nevertheless he can make his reply after I have finished speaking. I will refer him to the remarks made by the hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa when he said should you ask any Tembu man who is his chief he would say in reply that his chief is Ngubencuka. That is an indication that all the paramount chiefs from Tembuland are descendants of Ngubencuka . I wish to draw his attention to the fact that I do not know of any other clan so far as Qumbu is concerned , except that they are Majola clan. All the people from that area call themselves Majolas . They will never right away give you their correct clan until you make investigations . (Interjections)
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support this motion and in so doing would like to direct the attention of the Assembly to the fact that this motion does not affect any area which has a paramount chief, such as Qaukeni , Nyandeni , Dalindyebo , Gcaleka and Rode regions which have their paramount chiefs . This motion is an amendment which should be made as regards such areas as Qumbu, Mount Frere , Tsolo and Umzimkulu which have different chiefs according to their ranks. It is taking precautions that there may not be any trouble in such areas which might be caused by a person who may be promised paramountcy, because those areas are inhabited by different tribes such as Sothos , Hlubis , Bacas , Hlangwinis and Beles . There is not a tribe there which was born of the other tribes among them . They each arrived in those areas at different times. We are not desirous that after a time there may be a sixth paramount chief in the Transkei. The five we have are enough. If this provision is not made there may be someone in those different tribes who may wish to be the paramount over the other tribes , such as the Bomvana tribe among whom we heard there was a desire to have a paramount chief and wanting to break away for a second time , because they were originally under Dalindyebo and went to the Gcaleka region. (Interjections ) We have heard stories to the effect that they want to get away for second time from that area to a different area so that they may have their own chief, and should we have so many paramount chiefs where shall we find the money to pay their stipends ? We shall be compelled to pay them according to status as paramount chiefs , whereas we ought to use that money to support the poor and the maimed among our people. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. MAPASSA : This occurs in the area of Qumbu and Tsolo, so much so that I do not think there is any other clan which can be known as Dlaminis in those areas . What I know about Tsolo and Qumbu is that the whole area belonged to the Mpondomisis . It surprises me to hear today that in that area there are many tribes , so much so that a paramount chief can never be designated there. Will you then tell me that all those different clans or tribes in that area arrived there on the same day? When you return to your home you must say to your people that I advised you first to go and consult with the people in your area so that your people should tell you thoroughly about the history of your people , and if you are dissatisfied you should proceed to Qaukeni where I know the Mpondomisis came from . Although I am a Gcaleka I know that if a man from Qaukeni has any difficulties he will consult with Nyandeni . Mr. Chairman, I am going to be brief but I can say this hon. member is lucky because the Chairman is a sympathetic man. According to the Xhosa custom any tribe which joins another tribe becomes subject to that tribe . The reason why you are all called Xhosas is because when you arrived in these parts you found the Xhosas here . I do not know if you have any cause for complaint because you acted according to custom . When you found a beast being slaughtered you partook of the meat. You have had your sheep. I do not know whether you now want to get some more. (Laughter) If this had been a beast the brisket belongs to the man of the location and the hide to the owner of the beast. For example , if you employ a boy and he grows up at your kraal you are responsible for his circumcision and after that you pay "lobola" when he wants a wife . Thereafter this boy approaches the magistrate to say he has a claim at your kraal. You would not like that. I do not know whether you want to become a camel which at
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , I wish the hon. members would look carefully into this motion. The hon. Minister across the floor says I am confusing things , whereas we want to have a provision so that there may not be any of this confusion as regards the installation or the creation of paramount chiefs. Let us make provision that such tribes as live under their own tribal heads must remain as such tribes all the time , so that none of them may wish to be paramount over the other tribes . With those words , Mr. Chairman, I wish to smoke my pipe of peace . MR. E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman , I stand up to support the hon. member from Rode who says this motion has certain apparent defects , and on that account it must not be approved of by this House. First of all , I would like it to be noted that the Opposition side does not understand what we mean by a paramount chief. I would like therefore to explain the origin of paramountcy. By "paramount chief" we mean the head of a whole tribe . The paramount chiefs , I repeat, are the heads of their tribesmen. On that account nobody can claim paramountcy over a tribe to which he does not belong . That is not 353.
jections ) In order that we may have a tribe we must have a tribe which has a paramount chief whose genealogy is known and a tribe which has a land belonging to them. At one time I visited Chief Shadrack Zibi at Rustenberg. I asked him how it came about that he was settled there when his original home is in Middledrift. In reply he told me he left the area because the land there belonged to the Government and not to him and he wanted his own land because when the European drove away the original owners of the land, after the wars they gave the land to the Fingoes who helped them in the wars they waged against the owners of the land. Zibi therefore bought land in Rustenberg area and became chief over the land which belonged to him. I was in that area in 1938. I found there a man who was in one respect a chief and in other respects was the paramount chief. I asked how that came about. The area in the Transvall in which he is now he acquired as a subject of the European people who defeated him in battle , whereas in the other land , Bechuanaland , he got there as a subject ofthe British who were then in power. Up to this day we have among the Pilani in that area two chiefs, one on either side of the boundary. The land on the other side in the Protectorate was his land and he came with that land under the rule of the British. All the chiefs I have referred to came under the rule of the Government with their people and they were accepted as subjects . Who is it who can stand in the way of all of them , therefore, if they agree to become one and have a paramount chief. Makaula subjected himself to the Government and similarly the Mpondomisis , Faku, Ngangelizwe and all the other chiefs. What is the real reason that we should try to bring an end to chieftainship? Because we don't want anybody claiming to be the head of the other? (Interjections )
according to the custom of the people. (Interjections ) If I, a member of the Tembu tribe, go across to the Ciskei I know when I get there that I am going to a Rarabe area and that means , therefore , that the area in the Ciskei is known as the region of the Rarabe people. Order, THE CHAIRMAN: members are making a noise.
please .
The
MR. SIHELE : If I come back to the Transkei then I will know I am coming to the land of Sarili and whoever may be found in that land which belongs to Sarili is a member of the Gcaleka tribe . Likewise , if I proceed to the Tembu region of Ngubencuka , whoever is found in that region, myself included coming from an outside region, is a member of the Tembu tribe and therefore whoever becomes a paramount chief must be a rightful descendant of the head of that tribe who was himself the paramount chief. If I go to the region of Faku across the Umtata River, likewise all the people in that region, no matter to what tribe they belong, are the subjects of the paramount chief of that region namely, Faku. Likewise if I go to the region ofthe Mpondomisi everybody in that region owes allegiance to the head of the tribe in that region. (Interjections ) Also, if you go to the Mount Frere area you come to the area of the Baca people who came in during the war by reason of their bravery and courage. (Interjections)
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: On a point of correction, Mr. Chairman, Mpondomisi is the elder brother of Mpondo . I am referring now to the Baca tribe . If you follow the genealogy of the Baca tribe you will find they all come from the same source which cannot be denied by anybody. Those people live in their own area and nobody can claim that at any time in their history they were subject to the rule of a different nation. By this I have mentioned all the tribes which have come into this country who were not the subjects at any time of any tribe . (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please. MR. SIHELE : The motion stipulates that there should never be another paramount chief, whereas we know there are people who claim the right to paramountcy. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman....
THE CHAIRMAN : please.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order .
Sit down. Don't all talk ,
The debate was adjourned. THE CHAIRMAN: Before we adjourn I wish to announce that transport has been made available to members who desire to proceed to Abrahams ' Kraal and who have no transport.
MR. SIHELE :
The area known as No Man's Land was bought from Faku and was left bare for the different tribes that were roaming about to settle on because they had no area of their own. You are referring to such tribes as came in at different times which were under the rule of the White man and which therefore had no single head over them. Now this brings me to this point: The mover of this motion is an educated man who understands all this and I want to know what it is that worried him so that he brought this motion to the House , because he , living among the Baca people, is a Baca, and seeing that he served as a policeman he was finally made a chief. He was given an area of more than 4,000 morgen to live on. I would like to know what else he would like done for him that has not been done up to now. (Inter-
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 5th June, 1969. THURSDAY, 5th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just wish to make a short
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The Select Committee on the announcement. Transkei Coat of Arms will meet in the Chief Minister's office tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. I hope the Secretary will also be present to take the minutes of the proceedings .
not much manure is moved from one administrative area to another so that whatever movement takes place will not be of much consequence. I wish to make it clear, however , that the intention is by no means to encourage people to sell their manure . On the contrary , I want
TRANSKEI FOREST BILL
to impress upon the people that manure is extremely valuable and by making the best use of it, crop production can be stimulated appreciably.
: THIRD READING
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the third reading of the Transkei Forest Bill , 1969 .
It is also proposed to insert new sections in the Act. In drawing up the Forest Bill which was introduced a few days ago the question arose whether separate provision should be made in that Bill for the control of fires and veldburning. Previously provision was made in the Forest Act and in the South African Bantu Trust Regulations. After careful consideration I found it unnecessary to include provisions pertaining to fires, grass burning and fire- belts in different acts and decided to consolidate it in one act.
Agreed to . The bill was read a third time . TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the proposed amendments to the Transkei Agricultural Development Act have become necessary in the first place because a few shortcomings in the Act have become evident. It is the intention, inter alia, to rectify these matters with the amendment Act now brought before the Assembly. It constitutes minor alterations which will affect principles embodied in the existing Act.
As certain shortcomings which needed to be improved existed in the Agricultural Development Act, I decided to incorporate the different measures for the control of grass burning and fire-bels in the Agricultural Development Act where it belonged rather than in the Forest Act. Fires and fire -belts , also as far as the forests are concerned , will thus be governed by one Act.
Of some consequence is the amendment which seeks to enable my Department to purchase improved livestock, including both male and female animals , whereas previously only improved sires could be bought for resale to farmers.
In my speech for the Second Reading of the Forest Bill I made mention of the very great importance of our forestry industry. I pointed out to the Assembly what a big economic asset it is to the Transkei and that it is steadily It growing in value instead of diminishing. should therefore , be clear to all members how important it is that this asset should be careYet we find every year that fully protected. great losses are suffered by the Transkei as a result offorest fires , some started accidentally but some, I regret to say, started intentionally. My Department has no option but to protect these forests and plantations as best it can and for that purpose suitable legislation is necessary .
Mr. Chairman , may MR. K.M. GUZANA: I request a point of order. I do not know if the hon. the Minister of Agriculture expects us to reply to his speech. It has been the practice to supply members with a copy of the speeches so that we can reply to them . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, copies have been supplied to the staff and they are the people responsible for distributing them .
You are also all aware of the damage caused by indiscriminate veld fires . Veld burning must only be done very judiciously otherwise our veld suffers irreparable harm and erosion is accelerated . Also for these reasons it is neces-
I am confident that it will meet with unanimous approval. My intention with this amendment is to make it possible to buy female animals of a very high standard which can be sold to members of a farmers ' breeding society or some other body or bodies to be formed so that the Transkei farmers will be able to breed good bulls within the Transkei , for resale to other Transkei farmers. I wish to make it clear, however, that it is intended initially only for a very few carefully selected areas and on a limited scale. It is hoped, however, that in this way the Transkei may in due course be able to supply a substantial portion of the improved sires required annually.
sary to be able to effect proper control. For these reasons , Mr. Chairman, I bring before the Assembly these amendments . If I did not do it I would be forsaking my duty and I trust that the Honourable Members will enable me to protect not only our pastures , soils and plantations but also our crops , animals and human life because if fires get out of hand they can have very serious consequences for all these things .
There is also some deviation from the existing principle by allowing farmers to move manure from one administrative area to another without a permit. As the provision stands at present it may give rise to much administrative work. On the other hand, it is known that
Mr. Chairman, I now move that the Agricultural Development Amendment Bill be read a second time. MR. E.G. SIHELE : hon. members , I second. 355.
Mr.
Chairman and
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to make a few comments on the bill placed before the Assembly this morning . As it was read we noticed that an effort is being made to bring about progressive measures in agriculture . We are informed that steps will be taken to introduce thoroughbred bulls and heifers into the Transkei and that certain areas will be allocated for the carrying out of this scheme. We think that a very important measure . There is, however, a matter which we think this department must note specially in introducing these schemes. We would like the department to see that provision is made that these animals are provided with feed in the areas set aside for these schemes because they cannot be nourished only on the natural grass that these areas contain. I say this because from experience we know of people who buy thoroughbred animals and expect these to survive on the natural grazing only. You have made reference to the relaxation of the regulations as regards the removal of manure from the cattle kraals . We are happy to note that your department has realised that this was not altogether a necessary measure as we said previously. It is true, however, that the supply of this kraal manure is certainly not sufficient. I think the department should encourage the people to put into their cattle kraals cut grass , green weeds and similar things to help to supplement the kraal manure . You have referred to grass fires which are very destructive to forests and grazing areas, as well as to arable lands . All this means there must be co- operation between the department and the people and to enable such co- operation to take place it is necessary that the heads of these areas should be made aware of it. There is something which is regrettable , however, in the life of the people namely, that a person who claims that he has not been seen and will not therefore suffer the consquences of his action is not sufficiently careful. All this leads us to the feeling that people should be taught co-operative effort in regard to things generally which are of importance to them. I think I have said enough, especially because this is a very short bill and we feel its aims are commendable . I thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF N.S. JUMBA:
where it is a sweeter veld then you should consider whether to breed a Shorthorn or a dual purpose animal . If you consider the Maluti region and if those people are interested in the sale of whole milk, then they have the chance of selling whole milk, but in the Umtata area we should be able to separate our milk so as to sell the cream to the nearest creamery . We should also consider the transport and petrol expenses . Another speaker made reference to kraal manure . We should also realise that the kraal manure from cattle which are being artificially fed differs from that of cattle who feed in the commonage . There is a difference between manure obtained from fat animals such as dairy animals and from ordinary animals. Bacteriologically there is not the same quality and the manure from artificially fed cattle gives a higher yield in the agricultural allotments . There is also a difference between manure in the Karoo regions. Touching upon another point, where turf has been cut and stored at home as well as dry maize stalks , as the hon. member mentioned, I do not know whether or not he meant it but this should also be added to the kraal manure . There are many ways of feeding these animals from silage and other methods. When the cattle are fed on silage the manure differs from other manure . In fine , agriculture and forestry is the same as far as this feeding is concerned. The tribal heads should see to the maintenance of the forests . People must not think that the Government is oppressing them but they should realise that these forests are for their own benefit. The last speaker should tell us how people must be educated as far as the forests are concerned, and he must also teach us how we are affected by these forests , or is he going to send someone to go and teach those people who live in the forests apart from those who live in the locations ? He should tell us where the demarcation line is. If he can satisfy me on these points I will sit down and he may reply when he has an opportunity. (Interjections ) They are asking me what I am thinking of but at present I am not going to reply. I am expecting a reply from all the opposition members . MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if the last speaker was giving a lecture in the agricultural school at Tsolo we would say "Excellent". I will therefore advise him to
Mr. Chairman and
hon. members , from what I have gathered from the speaker who mentioned the introduction of thoroughbred cows into the Transkei , when we speak of cows in the Transkei which have to make provision for the people , they have to be mixed up with the bulls for the same purpose. I hope we will come to some agreement because we depend largely on bulls for the increase. We should take the areas of the Transkei separately. For example , when you take Matatiele and Mount Fletcher, there trees are scarce but there is plenty of grass . When we deal with Matatiele and Mount Fletcher along the Drakensberg Mountains we should consider what type of grass grows there because it would appear that that is sour veld and the type of breed I suggest is the Swiss . When you consider the area along the coast of Pondoland another type of animal is more suited to that area. When you come in the direction of Umtata
apply for a post at the agricultural school next year. We are thankful that the Government now realises what the Democratic Party has been saying about kraal manure , especially in the Engobo area where we have plenty of it. It was difficult to prevent people from taking kraal manure from one area to another as a result of this regulation , whereas the people had come to an agreement about it. We spoke very strongly about this to the Government, but the Government turned a deaf ear to it. We mentioned that the Government wanted to have power over everything. However , we have come to realise that the Government to enable the people to carry kraal manure at reduced prices and to provide them with means to cart it to their plots . If the previous Government extended this help to the people there is no reason why the present Government cannot continue that assistance . I
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two. However , for a long time we have concentrated on agricultural efforts and we forget We appeal to the this other pastoral effort. Department of Agriculture to take all steps in this regard and we assure them they will get the full assistance of the people of the To come back to the grass fires , Transkei . if there is a reduction in these grass fires it would be a great help in saving pasture for these animals. There are people who like to start fires in the boundaries between their agricultural plots and these fires may spread and destroy the whole grazing area. What should happen is that whatever grasses and weeds there may be in these agricultural allotments should be ploughed under. I shall not say much because it is our custom that when an announcement has been made everybody must go out and give help. I am certain that if you tell the people to help put out a grass fire they will come out in good As regards the spirit and give assistance . cattle-kraal manure we are all agreed . I thank you, Mr. Chairman .
would now like to refer to the bulls and heifers which will be made available . Already an hon. member has remarked that Engcobo will not be privileged in this regard because they have not accepted rehabilitation. I want to tell him that even though they have accepted rehabilitation in Qamata there will be no grass in that area . In Qamata there are just stones . We appeal to the hon. Minister so that when these animals are available they should be sold at a flat rate to all the people , whether their area is rehabilitated or not, if they are keen to improve their herds and flocks . This is what happened to me when I came to apply for a thoroughbred bull and ram. A certain European, Mr. Bosman, said they could not allow these to go to Engcobo because we had not accepted rehabilitation. I also wanted a thoroughbred ram and was told that because we have not accepted rehabilitation I would have to pay R20 for it, whereas in other places it was sold for R10 . I appeal to the hon. Minister that there should be a flat rate for all the taxpayers of the Transkei in the purchase of these beasts. There is also the feed for animals which we see in the rural areas . We are grateful that the Government has taken this step .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I wonder if you are still keen to carry on with this disI shall call on the hon. Minister to cussion? reply.
MR . E.G. SIHELE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members . I rise to thank the Government for the bill placed before the Assembly and I would like to say there are several things which make us feel that the Government is taking steps to provide for the people of the Transkei. We shall not forget that when they saw the people required implements for ploughing the land they supplied them. If it can be done by any means , we would like help to be extended to the whole of the Transkei and not only to certain areas. THE CHAIRMAN: dealing with this bill ?
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : things to say.
No, we still have
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman... THE CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member sit down. I think I called on the hon. Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, it is very gratifying to find the reception which has been given to this amendment bill. I am sure my department will take note of the advices given by a man like the hon. Mr. Jumba, as well as the budding Minister of Agriculture , Mr. Jafta. I will refer only to a few points with reference to the remarks just made. The reason for changing the system of getting permits for manure to be removed from one administrative area to another is different from what has been suggested by the hon. members across the floor. It was entirely the administrative difficulties which have moved this Government to change that order. We still stress the advisability of using the manure not only within the administrative area but for the owners ofthe manure themselves . Very much greater benefit will be derived by using the manure rather than selling it. Further , it will be easier, too , to cart it to one's own land rather than across to another administrative area. I mention this aspect in connection with the suggestion made that the Government should make vehicles available for cartage at a reduced cost. In the first place it would be impossible for the Government to provide the vehicles for this work and would be most costly. Taking it perhaps every year in reasonable quantities to your land will be the cheapest, but also the most paying method. With reference to the provision of feed to these animals, the first and most important way is to get rehabilitation introduced into the areas . In that case there
Hon. member, are you
MR. SIHELE : I am speaking on the question of the heifers mentioned in the speech, Mr. Chairman, because as we grow old our stomachs grow younger in years , desiring now to feed on baby-food, namely, milk. We are grateful therefore for the introduction of these heifers and we hope the Government will see that these heifers are kept in a healthy condition by the people. Though they may be able to provide sufficient food to feed the people they must also be fed properly. True enough, the people must take steps themselves to keep these animals alive , but we would also like the department to take measures to look after these beasts. It will not be much good getting these thoroughbred animals and be unable to find feed for them near enough. It is not everyone who is in a position to grow feed for these animals but some people have the money to buy feed to maintain these animals in a healthy condition. In the same manner as agricultural officers help to teach and educate the people in regard to agricultural processes , let them be likewise with these animals as they will help to maintain the people of the Transkei . The idea of bringing heifers into the Transkei is long overdue . We all by this time ought to be educated to know that it is possible . for a man to bring up his family by the milk of one good heifer , or perhaps
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will be provision definitely to help feed the animals. People can also then realise the wisdom of growing winter fodder , especially as their arable lands will have been fenced in. So, Mr. Chairman, with those few words I again move the second reading of this bill.
Now, you see, you should not anticipate the action of the Leader of the Opposition. (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN: The last speaker came from the Government side .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, we now have to issue an ultimatum that unless our health is being protected in this House we shall move the adjournment until this House is warm . We are told that it is the heaters which are being put on, but what we know is that in this type of heating arrangement when the heaters are being put on first of all cold air comes in. It is only after some time that hot air comes in. The hon. the Chief Minister the other day suggested that these heaters be put on at about 8 o'clock so that by the time we come in at 11 o'clock this House is warm. I think we will be better off under the atmosphere of the ordinary air than this human-made cold air .
PROHIBITION OF DESIGNATION OF PARAMOUNT CHIEFS IN REGIONS COMPRISING DIFFERENT TRIBES
THE CHAIRMAN :
Does the House agree?
Agreed to.
THE CHAIRMAN : As it would appear that the House is not keen to continue with the debate I shall call upon the mover to reply. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in reply to the debate I wish to reply to the amendment of the hon. member from Emigrant Tembuland who, unfortunately, is not in the Assembly now, the hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa. In moving the amendment he stated that the provision which is sought in this motion is already made in the Constitution , whereas the provision he mentioned is just the regulation which I wished to amend altogether. In his remarks he said he would not make any reference to the Embo region of which he knows nothing, and much of what he said was based on the Tembuland area which he knows . However , this motion does not refer at all to the Tembu area and I explained that at the outset. At the very outset I explained that Emigrant Tembuland and Dalindyebo , seeing they were of the same stock, would have no difficulty in finding a paramount chief in those areas. Likewise in Eastern and Western Pondoland. In speaking on this motion he mentioned that there would not be an instance of an independent chief being subjected to the rule of a different chief of a different tribe. He went on to say in a case of different tribes and different chiefs it would be proper to have those people first coming to an agreement. I mean that he used the word "all " - I even underline that word - and it became very plain that he was in full agreement with me on this motion. One other hon. member in the corner there who comes from the Gcaleka region mentioned yesterday that he knew the people from that area as being of the Majola clan and he said he had grown up in this area. I do not know which area it was he was referring to as he did not mention it specifically. I only thought he must have been referring to that corner where he sits . (Laughter) He was speaking of something he knows nothing about in Embo, Maluti and Umzimkulu regions . He went further to ask direct questions from me as to what I was crying over. I do not know where he came from because I did not cry over anything. I would like to tell him, as regards the remark he made about the opinion of the people I am representing here , that I am representing those people in the Assembly. All I say here is a mandate given to me by them. He mentioned that Qumbu and Tsolo areas are inhabited by the Majola clan only. I would like him to know that Emboland comprises Qumbu, Mount Frere and Tsolo areas . If he were here listening to me as I read out the different tribes he would
THE CHAIRMAN: I shall call upon the Secretary to read the bill a second time. The bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The Committee stage will be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I think there is an omission in the minutes , although they were passed. Yesterday when the House adjourned the House was dealing with Motion 11. I think after this second reading we shall have to go on with that motion. May I move that it be included in the order paper , as it was an omission? Yesterday there was a motion which was brought back on the order paper when it had been disposed of. I pointed that out and it was duly corrected . In any event, Mr. Chairman, if at all the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will.... MR. K.M. GUZANA: Don't anticipate me. Just put your point of view. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have indicated your line of action while sitting down. If he contends that that motion is not on the order paper there is Motion 45 on the order paper to which we can proceed .
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I shall now appeal to the members on both sides . You know that we left off with Motion 11 yesterday and we were just about to finish. Are you in agreement that we continue with it? MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, it would indeed be improper to leave a motion in mid-air without reaching finality and that is exactly what would happen to Motion 11 if we were strictly to interpret the rules. I therefore second the motion of the hon. the Minister of Education seeking to restore that motion tothe order paper for today , and that we continue our debate thereon. 358.
remember I said the whole of the Mount Frere area is inhabited by the Baca people. The
Vote for this measure which is in my favour and I will vote for one which is in your favour. Because these people have eaten so much of the sweets they just vote without thinking and in doing so sell the rights of the people . Which chief in that whole Emboland area can claim paramountcy unless the people have given full consent to his claim ? I noted that one of the hon. Ministers made a remark that such a thing will never take place but I have a suspicion that they have something at the back of their minds . I would like this to be clear , Mr. Chairman, that a paramount chief can only be a paramount chief of his own tribesmen and not over tribes that do not belong to him. I am happy that the hon. Minister tells me he would be a paramount chief on his own land. The areas have been demarcated. The Pondos in Qumbu have their own area and the travellers from this side talk to those people and say: This is your land - because they want the chiefs in that area to join the TNIP . I was elected by the Mpondomisis and they say they do not want any trouble in their area. They have had enough of these troubles. They do not want any more of these battles and feuds and they do not want to be cheated and told that the land does not belong to them . I would like the chiefs , in voting on this measure , to understand that it is not proper to try and bring misunderstanding between the people. If you are going to encourage this paramountcy as stated in the regulations then you are bringing divisions in these areas in smaller and smaller pieces. If paramountcy is granted to the Pondos in that area the Bacas will also claim paramountсу. The land is quite big and we have two Bele Chiefs here . Likewise the Halas and Basutos would claim their own paramount chief, but it is maintained that his father was only a policeman. I learn that he is also taking measures because he wants to be a paramount chief of that area . Being made chairmen of these re-
Mpondomisis only inhabit a portion of Qumbu and not a very big portion. A bigger portion of that area is inhabited by different independent tribes . There is an area under the hon. Chief Moshesh over there and the people in that area are of Basuto stock. His area covers a large portion and is very thickly populated. The population may be even seven times the population of some areas. We have areas inhabited by the Hlubi tribes and they are quite numerous. There are Beles, Hala tribes of Tembu stock and also Mangwanis. In Tsolo the position is similar. If we go to the Maluti region you will find these same tribes and also in the Umzimkulu area. The purpose . of the motion is to assist the Government and to assist the people of the Transkei to live in harmony and peace. If you have read about it you will know that the area from that side of Umtata extending to the boundaries of Lesotho was termed East Griqualand and we renamed this area not East Griqualnd, but Emboland. These are the areas of Tsolo, Qumbu, Matatiele , Mount Fletcher , Mount Frere , Mount Ayliff, Kokstad , Umzimkulu. All those regions comprise what was called East Griqualand . I shall not refer specifically to the Xesibes of Mount Ayliff district which chose to join Estern Pondoland . The very purpose of this motion was that the hon. Chief Sophonia Moshesh is also in a position to claim paramountcy of that area and any other chief in that area can likewise make a similar claim . One other matter raised by the mover of the amendment was to ask a question as to whom The whole of Emboland the land belonged . One of the region is an independent area.
speakers here tried to cheat the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni when he said the land belonged to Faku. If that land belonged to Faku how is it that it is now under other chiefs ? Faku ran away and others took over the land. This is another matter I would like to make clear to the chiefs who would like to possess more land and have more power. There is a belief that each and every tribe got to an area and settled there and the tribe asked for that land from the chief. In the Emboland region all the tribes which came there settled under the law which was then the law of the colonial Government. The people who are settled there did not go and ask for the land from any particular person. The Chieftainess over there is evidently worried, but her land is on this side and not in Qumbu She must not just worry (Laughter) area. about this . She was given an area in the Gcaleka region. I do not know whether the Mpondomisis have any claims to the land but it is the people getting to the Qumbu area which makes them claim . Seeing that all the people accepted it the land is now called Emboland. If the regulation stands as it is and any of the chiefs there (say, Chief Moshesh) should claim paramountcy there is no provision that all the chiefs must assemble together; there is no provision seeking the consent of the people in this regard . As our experience has taught us.some of the chiefs will be placed at a certain particular corner as has always been done and they are given the sweets that they like so much in that dark corner. You hear one saying to the other :
gional authorities makes the people desire to be appointed now as paramount chiefs . I am happy, however, that the chairman of Emboland region, Chief Dilizintaba , does not desire to be a paramount chief because we elected him to be chairman. (Laughter ) With these words , Mr. Chairman, I would like to state that we are taking measures to assist and help the Government. As my last word , Mr. Chairman, I know of three chiefs who were promised, and one of them was a member of the Democratic Party, poor chap . He was promised he would be made a paramount chief. He is on that side and looking miserable . ( Laughter) This side decided to say specifically he was chief of the Baca people and he would not be told by anyone that he is a paramount chief. There is another one who is being led by the nose , who is also as chief. I will sit down now, Mr. Chairman, but I think I have made this matter very clear.. THE CHAIRMAN: The question is a motion by the hon. Chief S.S. Majeke to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa. I shall put the question that the words sought to be deleted should be deleted . br The words sought to be deleted were deleted and substituted by the words poposed in the amendment.
359 .
The motion as amended : " That inthe opinion of this Assembly the procedure to be followed in the designation of paramount chiefs as laid down in section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963), (Act No. 48 of 1963) has adequate safeguards to ensure that no paramount chief can be foisted on a tribe or the tribes residing in any regional authority area" was carried. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15
firearms or taking part in fights should go out and stop them, accompanied by his followers . These people are supposed to go to stop these fights unarmed, because the law does not allow them to possess firearms . Because it is generally known that the leaders are not armed, disorder is increasing. Our leaders , the pillars of the nation , are unarmed and that is one reason why stock-theft is prevalent. Actually, what happens today is not only stock-theft but armed robbery, because during the night prowlers come and rob you of your property by force. Even in regard to our traders who are unarmed they are obliged to bury what money they have and when robbers come they ransack their stores because they know these traders are unarmed. In the case of our Bantu traders they receive visits from these "tsotsis " who order them to throw whatever treasure they have out of the window and they are obliged to do that because they know the traders are unarmed. The hardships suffered by people in Eastern Pondoland during the 1960 disturbances are indescribable . Chiefs of note lost their lives during those disturbances because the Communists knew that these people had no right to possess firearms. The only leader to stop this practice in Eastern Pondoland had a firearm and he used it. Even as we speak in the Assembly here terrorism is approaching South Africa. I was very happy to hear over the radio that a chief from the Qumbu district is going to organize these people to fight terrorism. There will be no threat of terrorism if it becomes known that the Bantu leaders have firearms. This is a mere request to our Government to appeal to the Republican Government to grant responsible leaders the right to possess firearms. Another point in this motion is in respect of what happens when the owner of a firearm who holds a licensed firearm dies, and then the Republican police march to his kraal and seize his firearm . A gun which was purchased lawfully and a gun which is an heirloom is thus taken for no good reason. This causes us to have a somewhat unpleasant feeling towards the White Government. My request to the Transkei Government is that it woos the Republican Government with a view to some relaxation in this respect. For the information of the hecklers opposite I would inform them that I was rescued during the Pondo riots by a Saracen , and that Communistic movement I now suspect, since I have been here, originated with some of the members of the Opposition.
p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION PERMITS FOR FIREARMS MR. S.K. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not think this motion is a contentious one. The precarious life we live.... MR. K.M. GUZANA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I read this motion and it does not seem to be complete at all . The motion seeks to request the Republican Government to supply or to grant permits. What are these permits for? MR. R. MSENGANA: For firearms. MR. GUZANA : I think it should say in the motion that there is a request for permit to possess firearms. I think we need to request the hon. member to amend it accordingly so that it makes some sense . MR. NDZUMO: MR. Chairman, I am of opinion that the phrase "to possess firearms" was inadvertently left out because it is clear in the second portion "and that the practice of confiscating lawfully held firearms after the death of the lawful holder is discontinued", so I don't think there is any need for me to make any amendment because it was just a mistake.
MR.
GUZANA :
Who made the mistake ?
MR. NDZUMO: The printers . MR. GUZANA: I don't think so , because we have the original motion here .
MR. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman, I move my motion as originally framed and that the words "to possess firearms " after the word "permits " be included. I accordingly move , as amended : "That in the opinion of this Assembly, the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to supply or to grant permits to possess firearms to proved law-abiding citizens as well as to all chiefs , headmen and traders , and that the practice of confiscating lawfully held firearms after the death of the lawful holder is discontinued . "
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA : members, I rise to support this motion wholeheartedly. This motion embraces the request that has constantly been raised in this Assembly by members of the Opposition. It is a happy occasion that today we realise we are all of one mind as regards this request. There is no need, therefore , for a person to speak at length when he is in agreement with the mover. In this motion I think the Government members realise that they, being the leaders , should be considered as far as this request is concerned. The fact that people are deprived of the weapons of their deceased parents has been explained and it is something that we cannot agree with. With these few words , I fully support this motion.
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. NDZUMO: I was saying that the hardships suffered by chiefs, traders and business people in this respect are very great. There are heads who are heads over large areas and they possess no firearms. The law requires that any chief or headman who sees people with 360.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just have one comment to make relating to the phrase "to proved law-abiding citizens ". Now, I do not know what tribunal will be established to determine whether or not a person is a law-abiding citizen who has been so proved. I would rather that the individual had the right to apply for a firearm , that he should have a right to possess a firearm , and if there should be any reason why he should not, then he will not be given a permit to obtain a firearm . It would appear now that the onus is on the applicant to prove that he is a law abiding citizen, rather than for the Minister who has the right to grant this permit to prove that the applicant is not a law-abiding citizen. That is my only comment, Sir , and I feel that that thought should be borne in mind when this recommendation goes through the Assembly and representations are made to the Republican Government . (Interjections) The hon. member for Emigrant Tembuland does not seem to understand the point I am canvassing. I presume he is merely pretending not to understand. I shall not take any notice of him.
ment. They further decided that an additional amount would be granted and this is shown in paragraph (d) of the same section, that depending upon the services assigned to the Transkei Government. The use of all the taxes and the grant put together would be decided upon by the Transkei Government. As the country is progressing, so are the expenses increasing. The amount of the budget this year amounts to R23 million. During the financial year 1964/ 1965 the budget was about R12 million. It should be noted that the present budget is nearly double that of the budget of that period , which shows that the amount given by the Republic should also grow as it created this self-governing territory. During 1963 the Republican Government decided to give a grant of R30 million and during this period of five years that amount has never been exceeded. The hon. the Minister of Finance controlled the moneys granted to such an extent that the surplus increased . In the Transkei there are many things needed . Even salaries have to be raised and the departments have to grow on account of the increase of work. In the Education Department it has been shown that the number of school -going children has increased, as well as the number of schools . Similarly, the number of teachers has increased though the number is not yet adequate to meet the demand owing to lack of funds . Anyone who wants to satisfy himself can turn to the Transkei Diary to see how the number of children has increased from 100,000 to 400,000 school-going children. This shows that the population of the Transkei is also increasing and expenditure is increasing correspondingly. Besides all that the sales tax has also to be considered, which means that all commodities bought or sold by the Transkei Government The buying power have increased in price . of the people has also grown and therefore the cost of living index has shown an increase . Those who are responsible for granting selfgovernment to a State should therefore be interésted enough to encourage its growth. It is surprising that the budget of the Transkei should be so small because it has been published in the papers that in South-West Africa the Black population will be given a budget of approximately R60 million, yet their population is smaller than that of the Transkei. I will refer you to page 2 of the Auditor- General's Report. The R60 million covered a period of four years as far as the expenditure of the Transkei is concerned and we should ask the Republican Government why it is that the Transkei has only been granted so little money . We beseech the Republican
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to assure the House that my Government supports this motion . As the hon. members know, the issue of firearms is not the function of the Transkei Government. All we can do here in the Transkei is just to make recommendations for the approval of such applications . However , should this motion be adopted by this House I wish to point out that there is a bill which is to be piloted in the Republican Parliament this year dealing with all aspects of firearms , therefore I think we shall first of all have to acquaint ourselves with the provisions of that bill after enactment, before anything can be done with regard to this motion. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, there is no need for us to be lengthy on this. The motion was carried unanimously. INCREASE OF FINANCIAL GRANT TO TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, with the permission of the House I would like to amend this motion so that the words "by 50%" be deleted and substituted by the words "in terms of section 52 ( 1) ( c) of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963" . The motion would therefore read:" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to increase its grants to the Transkei Government in terms of section 52 (1 ) (c) of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963. "
Government to increase its grant. Now I shall refer to what I stated in the House , that the 50 per cent should be amended . I think those who are paying heed now understand that the Transkei budget has increased even more than 50 per cent in the past five years , and whoever makes a request should not limit his request. I will not speak at length in connection with this matter because it is something that is badly needed. We request the Transkei Government
Mr. Chairman, when the Republican Government saw it was fitting to grant self-government to the Transkei they were anxious to prove the success of this self-government and to be proud of it. They decided that a grant amounting to the moneys spent by the Republican Government on the Transkei during the year 1963 should be handed over to the Transkei Govern-
to consult with the Republican Government. MR. R. MSENGANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not think there is one single fool who will oppose this motion. We have
361 .
of politics within the Transkei should be raised to a desired standard. That standard cannot be raised as long as the members ofthe Assembly are paid so little. I would like to show what I mean by saying that the standard of politics should be raised . When the Assembly rises , if we are truthful to the people whom we come to represent here , we ought to go to them and How will we do this, because those report. with cars have to buy petrol and those who do not have to hire taxis to take them round their constituencies ?
been granted self-government and we expect good fruits from that government. We should not only expect that only the members in this Assembly should see what progress has been made , but that the fruits of the Government No should be shared outside these walls . progress can be seen if a Government has no money. There is nothing therefore to prevent us from agreeing with this motion because provision has already been made in the section which has been quoted by the mover of the motion. Even if there are many things which indicate that we are drifting towards progress , if people are still starving and hungry we can never be satisfied. For example , to show that this Government has insufficient money the people had to pay half the cost of ploughing before any ploughing was done for them in the scheme to assist the people , as it was found that after that severe drought the people did not reap any crops during that season. I will not say anything as far as education is concerned because my hon. friend explained that clearly. In connection with health , it is obvious that from the reports you will find it is largely Africans who are victims of TB. This is because they are not sufficiently well paid and therefore because of poor diet they are easy victims to TB. They have not sufficient means to plough because of lack of money and they cannot buy Before self-government sufficient fertilizer . was granted the Transkei never had an opportunity to see that those matters which are of great importance should be investigated . It is for that reason that funds are required, to make such investigations and to see that improveMost of our labourers , ments are initiated. especially those engaged on the roads , are paid very low wages . They are exposed to all types They have children of weather conditions. and the money they make is just sufficient to cover the bodies of their children but not enough They are to provide them with good food. exposed to rain and cold and they are not well dressed because they have not the money. If you have R10 in your pocket it is very difficult to get a warm coat. If people are going to exist their health must be looked after. A man who lives on dry bread and boiled mealie- meal lives on that not because he likes it but because he cannot afford any better. When you compare people you find that the Black people compose the greater portion of the community. Now I want to make reference to the saying that we contribute very little money through indirect taxation. That I do not believe . We are very
MEMBERS: Hear , hear. MR. MSENGANA: When you are about to do so you open your purse and find you have very little money and therefore are unable to go round. During the election campaigns you find our people have yet to learn quite a lot, particularly those who are away at labour centres in Cape Town and Johannesburg, although they are Transkei citizens . It is only right that when we leave this House we should visit those people before we come back here. When you go to the railway station and are told what the fare is , again when you look in your pocket and find so little money you give up the idea of going to those places. In that regard the standard of politics is going to fall because we only see people when we are convassing for votes during election campaigns. These people are not even given time so that matters can be explained to them. I thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it gives me great pleasure that these opinions have been expressed. Indeed , the last speaker said just the right thing and we do not want to add to this very good speech. All we advise is that the people who are going to put this across must be very well informed, because in order to enable us to make the necessary strides we should be given liberally of the funds There is nothing wrong in of the country. asking, like Oliver Twist for more . We must not limit the Government in that regard but we must ask for more because we are hungry. Nothing grows unless you water it well , and we are like people who have been given the taste of good food and we would like to have more good things , therefore . We cannot turn back on the road to advancement.
many and we buy clothes; we are many and we buy tobacco; we are many and we consume liquor , and I believe that we pay quite a lot It can never of money through income tax. therefore be said that we pay very little . We are requesting the Republican Government to raise the standard of the Transkei Government so that all the servants of the Government obtain work right from the professional man to the labourer on the roads .
MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR. GUZANA: You must not be deceived , members of the Government side , and feel that we are praising you because , speaking as we do, we have always maintained that money should be allowed to flow freely into the Transkei . We are not going to give that up as it appeals to us. We have always maintained that in order to grow uniformly we must have nourishment for all parts of the body. The Transkei has always been regarded as a mere portion of the Republic and we want the Government, therefore , to dip deep into their funds to feed us , and the fat that is going to anoint our arms is the money. We do not mean thereby that if the arm grows
MEMBERS : Hear, hear . MR. MSENGANA: We further request the Republican Government that as it has granted self-government to the Transkei the standard 362.
"reference book" and not a " dompas " . A reference should be an identity card. As the last speaker mentioned with reference to the wages , we ought to be likened to other people who hold identity cards , instead of these reference books . We therefore appeal to the Government to take note of this as a general cry from the electorate and not from me as an individual . I am quite sure there are no people here who want to carry this about because even if the police come into the Assembly here they will find a number of us who do not carry our reference books with us . I appeal to the whole House, therefore , to support this motion because I feel it is a very suitable one and will be approved of by all. This reference book contains pages which are not liked by the people.
it must be cut from the rest of the body. (Laughter) It will grow well and strongly so long as it is part and parcel of the body. Mr. Chairman, I have not said anything against this but was merely adding to the good things that have been said. Indeed , when you eat good food you must not talk at the same time in case the food goes into the wrong channel. Without saying more , Mr. Chairman , I appeal to the House to agree unanimously on this.
The motion was carried unanimously. REPLACEMENT OF REFERENCE BOOKS WITH IDENTITY CARDS MR. W.C. SINGATA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I put the motion as recorded on the order paper :-
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to identify myself with the remarks expressed by the hon. member on the Opposition side. First and foremost we have to consider ourselves as a people coming from a State and we must be completely distinct from other people who are not in a selfgoverning State . These reference books were designed by the Republican Government and if we are mindful and proud of what we are as Transkeians , we must design our own identity cards. We must have our own design. When one opens the present reference books , from the very Go one sees it is a book that is precisely meant for slaves . When these books were given out under the Consolidated Act of 1945 we were told that a man could visit any urban area for 72 hours without prosecution, but invariably you find you have a policeman right in your inside pocket. What this policeman does with the reference book is this : Immediately you are arrested by a policeman there it is - a specific portion where they will stamp such nefarious words as " Not permitted to be in proclaimed area of such-and- such a town". Now, if we come from a self-governing State why should we subject ourselves to a position whereby we can be treated like underdogs ? In my remarks in support of the hon. member I wish to add this more so that we have had a bill in this House towards the PAYE system as far as taxation is concerned and none of the Transkeians as from next year will escape the payment of taxes, so we must bear in mind that a neat identity card is sufficient. What always happens is this : If you are in a town and you are stopped by a policeman the first thing he wants from you is your reference book. At times you have forgotten the "dompas" at home , then you are automatically faced by two charges - failure to produce a "dompas " on demand and, if you do produce it, you find you have not paid your tax for two or three years. So this policeman is
" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of giving Africans identity cards instead of reference books . " MR. G.G. KUTU: I second the motion. MR. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman, people do not even want to carry these little booklets referred to as a "dompas", because it tears one's pocket. It was never something which was approved by the members of the Council . The pages contained in it lower the dignity ofpeople . At one time a respectable member from Nyandeni area, an attorney, was arrested. He was handcuffed, put into a van and locked up, which means that one day possibly even our Chief Minister may be locked up. It not only lowers the dignity of people but it is also responsible for the low wages earned by the Bantu people because an employee cannot leave a job which he has and take another occupation elsewhere. At one time during the election campaign , at Langa and at Paarl near Cape Town in 1963, just before the first general election the people asked whether the Republican Government would not send them back to the Transkei if their reference books were marked with the Transkei stamp. That makes it even more apparent that instead of setting the people free this reference book ties the people down. My younger brother and I were once arrested in Durban North because we left our reference books behind, because of their weight and size , when we went to visit a friend in Durban. Although we tried to explain , the policeman said : "You came from the Transkei where you were given selfYou should not have left your government. reference books behind. " Even though the European officials tried very hard , the police Even though I was would not set me free. allowed to walk free , my younger brother was not allowed to leave the cells even though I had brought his reference book to him. I am
-
right inside your inside pocket , but as soon as we have this PAYE system all Transkeians will have paid their taxes . Without adding any more in support of this motion I plead with this House to unanimously support it.
trying to make it clear that people , educated or uneducated, cannot approve of this reference book and its size because in places like Port Elizabeth, if you go even to a toilet room without this reference book on you, you are liable to arrest. I do not think there is anyone here who can say he approves of this because even the name used is not approved of. It is called a
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , I am wondering if the last speaker had finished speaking . 363.
endorsed out of Cape Town. So in my very strong protestation the Transkei Government should consider the introduction of identity cards. This so-called Bible , after all , tears our pockets , but an identity card is something nice and neat. In reality you find that some of the Europeans do not move about carrying their identity cards all over, and they are never confronted by policemen asking for their identity cards , and if we are citizens of a self-governing State we must be given the dignity of citizens of our own State.
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman, I have just two more points whereby I wish to show that this reference book is more intended to humiliate us than help us. I remember what happened to me in January this year. I had taken my van for service in a Queenstown garage and because I was hurrying to be at the garage before 8 o'clock I forgot this reference book in another jacket. Just as I was coming out of the garage a young European constable stopped me. He demanded the reference book and I pleaded with him, telling him I had forgotten it at home. I tried to bring pressure to bear upon him that I was not an irresponsible citizen. He was not at all interested in all I was saying. He ordered me to go to the charge office. I was there charged with failure to produce a reference book. Just before I left the charge office I asked to see the station commander of Queenstown. I was granted that privilege . I put my case before the station commander telling him who I was and reminding him of what was once said by the former Minister of Justice of the Republic (I think it was the late Honourable Mr. Erasmus ) who said people should not be prosecuted on minor offences like forgetting a reference book. I said to the station commander that I am a citizen of South Africa, I am a person of dignity and I did not see how a young constable could humiliate me so much. I told him it was not that I hadn't a reference book, but that I had forgotten it at home. Well , the station commander listened to my pleading and the result was that the case was dropped. But now, assume that I was not capable of putting my case before the station commander , and assume that I was illiterate , how many thousands of African people have been subjected to sleeping in gaol because of failure to produce a reference book ? Now, if we come from a self-governing State we must be proud of it. There must be a positive line of demarcation which identifies the Transkei citizens with the Transkei and that if the Government of the Transkei could issue us with identity cards we will say " Hurray" to the Transkei Government. ! Lastly, Mr. Chairman, hon. members, if you go through the pages of the reference book, I referred earlier in my remarks that you are actually carrying a policeman in your inside pocket. Now, you are employed by a certain European employer and somehow or other you do not agree on a certain point and then he just discharges you. It is difficult for you to be employed by another man because this employer must endorse in your reference book the fact that you have been discharged. Furthermore , in terms of the Consolidated Urban Areas Act we know that if you have to remain in an urban area you must have worked for one European for about 12 to 15 years . I have paged through hundreds of these reference books and it is very difficult to find one single African who has worked continuously for one European employer for 15 years, which means , Mr. Chairman, that if a Mr. Kutu, for instance , has worked in Cape Town for 20 years and the reference books were introduced only about 1954 , it does not matter how much reasonableness Mr. Kutu brings before the authorities that he has been in Cape Town with the same employer for over 20 years , you will find that according to section 10 you are 364.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , judging from the consensus of opinion in the House I feel it is one of unanimity. Really, I think it is time. When sense talks , in fact, I become tongue-tied but I endorse firmly what the last speaker has said. In fact, without belabouring any point in the motion I thumbnail the fact that the abolition of passes and Act No. 67 of 1952 is a contradiction in terms , because it was said it was the abolition of passes and co-ordination of documents but now you find that neither the passes have been abolished , nor the documents co-ordinated. in (Laughter) You know a reference book fact , the very container does not only upset the aeasthetic sense but it hobnobs with indignity and disorder. (Laughter) In fact, I experienced the same experience as the hon. Mr. Tshunungwa for failure to produce a pass at Ngqeleni. I was charged the following day and, you know, I could not be released on my own recognizances simply for failure to produce this "dompas". This law is a very fallacious law. THE CHAIRMAN: mover to wind up.
I shall now call on the
MR. W.C. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am grateful for the opportunity offered me but I feel we should come to an end by taking a vote. The motion was carried unanimously. DISCONTINUANCE
OF
SALE OF JABULANI
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to put this motion before the House :"That in the opinion of this House the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of consulting the XDC with a view to discontinuing the sale of Jabulani. " First of all , Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. members to know that I have not brought this motion merely because I am a Christian, nor because I feel this is such a great sin. You will remember that in the last three or four years we were given free access to European liquor - liquor which is very harmful to a certain group of people and that is the more educated people . Now, there has come a time when Jabulani is also freely accessible to the people. This Jabulani as we see it now is even worse in its effects than European liquor. I do not know the ingredients for making this beer, but its effects show a very bad influence among
the people. Just as European liquor was very destructive to the standards of the higher class d of people, this Jabulani has come now to destroy q the people of the lower income group - the people who are hungry and poor. It is being retailed at 5 cents and 10 cents and the quantity sold does a great deal of harm. MR. S.K. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman, in a point of interjection, the hon. member should tell us why, when we were taken to Abrahams ' Kraal , he did not specifically ask this specific question from the XDC specialists · that is, the ingredients of Jabulani. I would like to know that. ed MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, I shall not reply to that question but I shall continue. The people who are victims of this Jabulani are the low income group. I would like to mention that in all the areas where Jabulani is sold it is sold at the entrance to the living quarters of the people. People who come from a distance, coming to the town hungry and thristy, come across these beerhalls first of all , and the workseekers are the real victims of this Jabulani. These are the people who have gone to towns to be attended to for TB...
the people to a very large extent. If a person has taken a drink of this liquor it has an effect on him for sometimes two days. (Laughter) Some people went to drink this and we asked them what it was like , and they told us of its effects. Although this makes us laugh, however among the people it is causing a great deal of misery . There are many mothers who have become widows as a result of this Jabulani . As I have mentioned, it has a very bad effect on working people for a long time . That very fact has some truth in it. It is on that account that we feel the Government of the Transkei must have immediate consultation with the XDC to bring this to an end. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. JAFTA : There are very many things which can be drunk by the people in place of Jabulani. There is something we cannot understand of the ingredients used in this Jabulani. People drink beer but the beer has not the same effect as Jabulani. It is for that reason that we appeal to the Government to look into this and find out what it is that has this effect on the people who have taken this drink. We have spoken about the dangers of this Jabulani and the people who have died as a result are very many. I would like you to note further the effect it has on the working power of the individual. Mr. Chairman, with these words I appeal to the Government to have consultations with the appropriate bodies to stop the brewing of Jabulani .
CA THE CHIEF MINISTER: Didn't you say you wanted to be free and have liberty in your country? MR. JAFTA: Even though that is so we do not want liberty which destroys us.
CHIEF H.Z.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: So you want to introduce restrictions ? juder MR. JAFTA: The people who come in with their last 10 cent piece on them go into the beerhall because they are hungry. (Interjections) The people of the low income group do not go to the bottle-stores because they haven't the means . (Interjections ) Even though they brew their own beer it is evident that something has been done to bring them to this situation. I said at the very outset that I did not bring this because I am a member of a religious denomination. As you will remember from what I said before, the main sufferers from TB are the aged, the maimed and the poor and it is clear that these people have two lions waiting to destroy them. The first is Jabulani and the second is TB and the people are being destroyed by these two threats . That makes us see the sorrow that is brought on the people . (Interjections)
ZULU :
I second the motion.
The debate was adjourned. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I just want to announce to the committee on the Transkei Coat of Arms that we have a Cabinet meeting tomorrow so the committee will meet on Tuesday morning. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 6th June, 1969. FRIDAY , 6th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, the Business Committee will meet in the Chief Minister's office at 1.45 p.m.
MR. JAFTA: Further , while the people are drinking the police are waiting at the door, knowing very well that as soon as they come out they will be drunk. I want you to remember that these people are among the poor section of the community. They are put into the van and taken to the cells where they will be required to pay a very heavy fine. Even though this is supposed to be an income- earning business, on the other hand it is bringing ruin on the people . Indeed, the people are complaining about this . It reduces the working power of
NOTICES OF BILLS THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I beg to give notice that on Monday, 9th June, 1969, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the amendment of Proclamation No. R.293 of 1962 , i.e. the regulations for the administration and control of townships in Bantu areas. 365.
of a man like the hon. member for Cofimvaba , he will not be able to explain himself out of the position.
I beg to give notice that on Monday, 9th June , 1969 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 in so far as it applies in the Transkei . TRANSKEI
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What are you talking about?
TAXATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
MR. MADIKIZELA : About taxation at the age of 18.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should now sit in committee on this bili.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Come to brass tacks .
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA : I second. MR. MADIKIZELA : You would expect the man to be taxed after he has earned some money, and I propose by this amendment to give the man three years before starting to pay taxes , particularly when it is borne in mind that the African is already committed to work for a wife and to push forward taxation and to try to earn for a family is a very difficult thing for him .
Agreed to. House in Committee THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving the sections of the bill I would like to make it clear to members that in my second reading speech I gave full motivation on each section and if I am to be called upon to give motivation again it will be just a mere recapitulation.
THE MINISTER childish.
OF
FINANCE :
That is
On Clause 1 MR. MADIKIZELA : The hon. the Minister of Finance asked whether , if the chap started work at 18 , he should not be liable for taxation. I think not, Mr. Chairman. Let him work for a few years and then start to be taxed.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we are fully aware of the pains the hon. the Minister of Finance took in explaining the details of the bill during the second reading stage , but when he tabled the bill the intention was that we should study it and contribute to the discussion on it. I am therefore pleading with him to exercise patience in this matter . This is a very important bill indeed.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I cannot agree to that amendment. As a matter of fact, I regard it as most unreasonable . Right through South Africa the Africans will be taxed at the age of 18 and he wants the Transkei to be exempted from that, even though these young men get circumcized at 17 and go to work. On the other hand he is pressing the Government for salaries , wages , etc. How is the Government going to meet the commitments required by the country?
I rise , Mr. Chairman, to speak to the amendment appearing under my name on the order paper that in section 1 (1 ) ( i) the word "eighteen" be deleted and substituted by the word "twentyone" . The accepted age for majority is 21 . Eighteen was the determination of the old colonial system and colonialism, as far as I know, has always been anathema to the hon. the Minister Indeed, I am surprised he has of Finance . chosen to retain this age which is a vestige of the past. The colonial authorities had established this age of 18 in order to induce the African people to move out to work. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE :
MR. MADIKIZELA: at 21.
He will be ready to pay
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I do not even want to waste my time on this and I will not even reply to any other member who makes such an unreasonable suggestion.
And should
they go to work at the age of 18, won't they pay taxes?
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, this amendment has not been seconded . 1
MR. MADIKIZELA: I will deal with that. I am coming to it stage by stage . The idea of that, to quote the hon. the Minister of the Interior , was that the Native had the best of times . He gloried in the sun as it rose and he gloried in the sun as it set, and taxation was imposed on him to keep him away from the pastime of hunting and the pursuit of warfare . Now, take a youth of 18 who is recruited for the mines . He is assessed for taxation and before he has earned his month's pay he is expected to pay his taxes. If, during the second week at the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Who says it cannot be replied to before it has been It can be replied to at any time . seconded? MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, I rise to second this amendment and I appeal to the hon. Minister to bridle his temper when we are discussing important matters affecting the people.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : My temper is normal. The only thing is I am seriousminded , not frivolous like you are .
mines he should choose to go and visit his friends at another compound , he may meet policeman. He demands his reference book. He satisfies himself that this chap has not paid his taxes and, not possessed with the intuition
The effect of his temper MR. MNYILA: considered in relation to our age is a bit of a handicap. (Interjections )
366.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : to the amendment. MR. MNYILA: the point at hand. have our customs want to maintain. a boy behaves like
Please speak
MR. J.M. DINIZULU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the bill before the House. We regret to note from the Opposition side that they want people who are already taxpayers to be relieved of paying taxes. I want to contradict a statement which maintains that the reason why the employers are made to deduct the taxes from the wages of their employees is because these people do not want to pay their taxes . The reason why the employers are asked to make this deduction is because the people go and find work within the Republic. We have found it proper , to prevent people being arrested for failure to pay taxes , to have a deduction made on their wages. The people are very grateful for this step because they did not know how to avoid arrest by the police of the Republic. I do not think there is anyone who can say that the Government was wrong in making this provision , and I think the people are even more grateful , especially as there has been a reduction in the tax they have to pay. Further, there have been many demands , especially by the Opposition in this Assembly, which require extra finance and that finance must come out of the taxes of the Transkei people . That proves, therefore , that they are not consistent in their arguments . What they said one day they cannot bring into line with what they are saying today.
I would like now to come to We are Black people and we and our traditions which we We have no custom where a man.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: why they kill people with "kieries".
That is
MR. MNYILA: As members of this Assembly we are aware that the Act to which the hon. the Chief Minister refers as having been brought about by the Republican Government was meant for European children. Because we, too , were under the Republican Government we accepted that law. Seeing that we have our own parliament which legislates for our people we feel that a child at 18 years should not pay the tax as he has not reached maturity. It is only a youth of 21 years of age who should pay taxes. (Interjections) Those are the people who were circumcized before they had reached the proper age. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : proper age ?
What is the
MR. MNYILA: 21 is the proper age. (Interjections ) We would that the hon. the Chief Minister should not make us abandon our customs. They are becoming Christians because you wish to make us leave our customs. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
MR. G.G. KUTU : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. member says we are stupid. This is an insult and we ask him to withdraw. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He says you are stupid, and you are.
Order, please .
MR. MNYILA: I will say what I wish to say. I would like to discuss fully this matter and if you keep on interrupting I will not be able to put my point fully. Allow me , therefore , to concentrate on this question. Here is the trouble as experienced among your people .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order , please .
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order I think the House should have some self-respect and no-one should insult other members. The hon. member insults us by calling us fools.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , will you please get to the point. We are not talking about circumcision, we are talking about taxation.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, you are confusing me. The other day hon. members of the governing side were called "isidenge" and from that it went to something worse .
MR. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, why do you step on my tongue as I speak? What I mean is that a person who is made to pay taxes at that age is a minor. (Interjections) Leave the question of circumcision. I have left that alone. I would like you to note that if you make a minor pay the tax you are taxing someone who has no responsibility whatsoever. Even now when I visit your area you will find quite a number of young men who have not been paying their taxes for the last three or four years. It is for that reason that the Republican Government decided that money must be taken from the wages of the employees . It was because the Government was troubled by this failure to pay taxes on the part of these young men. Is the hon. Minister's purpose in making these young people pay taxes that they should cause this trouble all the more ? You have refused me the privilege of speaking about these young boys and therefore I will sit without having expressed myself fully on it.
That was not proper, Mr. MR. KUTU : Chairman. Anyone making that statement should withdraw. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. members will have to polish their language. I cannot be calling on them all the time . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I am taking from the words of the Chairman when he said the Opposition insulted the Government side . It appears that the Chairman wants the two sides to insult one another. (Interjections) I thank you for the last words you said, but that we should insult one another I do not think is right. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I have asked the members to polish their language. Carry on.
367.
MR. DINIZULU : Would it be fair in clear English to say that when a man is talking he is talking like a stupid man? There is nothing wrong in that because . as a matter of fact , he may be talking like a stupid fool . All we are trying to say is , if anyone says you are stupid there is nothing wrong with that. ( Interjections ) If you say I am a fool when I am talking that is all right. If you say " isiyatha " there is nothing wrong with that.
poor family and it becomes necessary for him to support a mother who may be in debt and also has to support sisters who may also be in debt, because even for their clothes they will turn to the young man who has just gone out Further , this young man will only to work. be employed for a short period. He will only be in employment sufficiently to clothe himself and his mother and the rest of the family before his time is over.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman.……….
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are not serious .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Iam calling upon the hon. member who was on the floor . MR. DINIZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , there is something that we are forgetting, namely, that the people of the Transkei have come to regard taxes as a custom because they know that this tax money is used to maintain their lives and their land. I am speaking about something that I know of. Young people want to pay the tax at the age of 16 because they want to acquire the rights of a citizen. We appeal to those people not to speak about something they know nothing of. There are people on the other side who know about this , about the reduction of taxes and income tax. With those few words , Mr. Chairman , I would like to sit down.
MR. JAFTA: All his wages will go to pay for that, as well as the rail fare to and from work. It is because of these circumstances that we make an appeal that taxation should begin at the age of 21. The fear that the revenue fund will be lowered is without reason because it has been arranged that a deduction be made by the employers from the employees ' wages. On that account there will be no tax evaders and all the money expected from taxation will be collected as estimated . For those reasons we appeal that taxation should begin at the age of 21 , because we know in what difficulties our people live. We appeal therefore to the hon. Minister . MR. M. MASIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I will debate the customs relating to tax.
Mr. Chairman and hon. MR. N. JAFTA: members , I rise to support the request that the age of 18 be increased to 21 before a person The (Interjections) is asked to pay taxes . Bantu people are living in very difficult circumA young man going to work for the stances . first time has many responsibilities in the family.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, I think we are proceeding too slowly now. We are still dealing with the difinition "adult" . I do not think that matters very much because this applies to the citizens of the Transkei and they are recognized by our law as being 18 years of age . I should like to know those in favour of the amendment.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : A man working at 18 years of age , must he pay taxes or not?
MR. JAFTA: He does not even possess a blanket to put on. He comes out of a very
The amendment was lost by 18 votes to 63 after a division as follows : -
YESES .
NOES.
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu. Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana SAndy Majeke Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani TELLERS : 1. 2.
L.L. Mgudlwa L.I. Cemane
TOTAL 20
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana 368.
Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaiser Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo
Y
4991
F
(01 901
1
40490
TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
TOTAL 63
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This again explains itself. The hon. member knows that the messengers of the court are paid by the additional fees paid by taxpayers for failure to pay. This is a provision which allows the Minister to pay moneys appropriated by the Legislative Assembly for any purpose in connection with the collection of taxes.
Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clauses 2 and 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 MR . G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman , I would like the hon. Minister to motivate clause 4.
Clause put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This clause merely provides for administrative purposes and requires no elucidation.
Clause 5 put and agreed to. On Clause 6
THE DEPUTY member satisfied? MR. KUTU : man.
CHAIRMAN:
Is the hon. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move an amendment as is recorded: " That in Chapter II, section 6, subsection (a) :
I am not satisfied , Mr. Chair-
MR. C.S. MNYILA: The hon. Minister will excuse me . He said he has already explained this and in some respects I agree with him. He has mentioned he will have bodies which will carry out this work and I should like to know whether he includes here messengers of the court. You have gone so far as to say " any inferior administrative authority" . I would like to know what sort of inferior authority this is.
(i) delete R360.00 and substitute therefor R400.00 ; (ii) delete R480.00 where it appears and substitute therefor R500.00;
(iii) delete R30.00 and substitute therefor R50.00 where there is an amount in excess of the basic taxable income. " 369.
hand. With the introduction of a PAYE system it would, with so many of our taxpayers working outside the Transkei , be folly to deviate from the tax scales and tariffs which will apply in the rest of the Republic. It must be borne in mind that this Assembly's legislation cannot compel employers of Transkei citizens in the Republic to deduct general tax imposed on Transkei citizens , and the object of the proposed new taxation system will therefore largely be defeated if uniformity of scales and tariffs is not applied in the whole Republic . Moreover , as the amounts of R360 and R480 are multiples of R30 and R40 it would facilitate matters for employers when deductions are made from salaries. For example , an amount of 10 cents would be deducted monthly from the salary of a person whose income exceeds R30 per month, but does not exceed R40 per month. This means that the tax payable by persons in the R360 to R480 income group amount to only between .25% and .3% of their income and I am sure this House will agree that further concessions are not warranted. Now, the effect of the proposed amendment under item (iii) will be that a man earning, for example , R2,750 per annum would have to pay R47.72 per annum, whilst a man earning only R10 more is required to pay R65.52 or nearly R17 more in tax. Now that is the effect of the amendment. Your amendment seeks that a person pays far more than he would pay under these proposals . You have not studied these taxation tables . I just want to say generally that I am surprised at the attitude of the Opposition when they want the people of the Transkei to pay no taxes at all.
Mr. Chairman, my reason for moving this amendment is because , as far as the European is concerned, income tax is only paid at the R600 wage level for married and unmarried people. In this bill it commences at the R360 level for married and unmarried people. My reason for moving that it be rasied to R400 from R360 is , first of all , because it will be easy to calculate according to these additions which will be made . Secondly, the African people are paid a much lower wage than the European in this country and lower than any other races in the country , so much so that the Bantu people are regarded as being a race of poor people in comparison with other races. If they are taxed on as low a notch as is given here , does that not mean that their poverty is being increased? If you look carefully I have suggested that the figure be raised from R360 to R400 and from R480 to R500. Further , I raised the taxable figure from R500 to R600 . I do not think that the Government side can fail to notice that I have not increased all these amounts of taxable income. It will be noted that there are different classifications all based on a R30 increase . One wonders why this was not done on a percentage basis , but this R30 basis applies to married as well as to unmarried persons , and if you take note of the taxes payable by Europeans you will find that the unmarried person pays a higher percentage tax than the married. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This is not a White tax. The White people are taxed far more than the Africans . CHIEF NDAMASE : It is clear that as far as our Government is concerned a married person is not considered at all. He is treated like an unmarried person. (Interjections) The hon. member has asked why I say this . I am telling him that the point is, a married man should have no children. One might say that the income tax paid by the African is lower than that paid by the European. That is so, but the wages paid to Africans are lower than those paid to Europeans , but the African pays more for the goods bought in the shops , seeing that they pay exactly the same. I hope the Chairman will allow full discussion on this.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. Who said that? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now, they are the first people to claim for an increase in the salaries of members of this Legislative Assembly, but the rest of the Republic is going to pay these taxes and they say in the Transkei the Transkei people must be excluded and must have a different system from these outside . You ought to be ashamed of yourselves , because as responsible members of parliament you ought to know that the services of the State cannot be carried out without taxation.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : We are suggesting a lower taxation.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in the first place I want to make it clear that there are no White people who are Transkei citizens . It is a mistake to bring Whites into our discussions on matters which are within the ambit of our legislation .
CHIEF NDAMASE:
In your THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : motions you have such fantastic demands for the Transkei. It shows the electorate must be careful about sending stupid people to this House. You say the Government must do things how are we going to do things without taxation?
I was comparing them.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: a system of taxation.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : As regards the amendments referred to by the hon. member I would refer him to my budget speech, as well as to my speech in connection with the taxation proposals when the matter was dealt with in committee of ways and means . In both speeches I stressed the importance of avoiding dissatisfaction and confusion which might result from having, for example, different tax rates for determining taxable income of the Transkei on the one hand and the rest ofthe Republic on the other
We are suggesting
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You have just made fantastic demands about the Legislative Assembly members . You don't even think of the labourers . You think only about yourselves . CHIEF NDAMASE : But have you raised the wages of the labourers? 370.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You know we have twice made increases in their wages within the space of five years , but you want increases in your own salaries and yet you say taxes must not be paid.
ment has done nothing to raise the taxable income of the Transkei . They have been paying additional tax at this level.
MR. MADIKIZELA : No- one said that. are suggesting a system of taxation.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes , they have been paying additional tax from £180 (that is , R360 ) a year. This is nothing new.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No.
We
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I cannot agree to this amendment.
MR. MNYANI:
But this is going to raise it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I say they have been paying additional tax from · £180 . per annum . There is nothing new in this and I would request the hon. members not to bring in the White people of South African when we discuss this. They must deal solely with the Transkei citizens . We have no Europeans as Transkei citizens .
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , I rise to support the amendment moved by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , where he states that the lowest notch should be R400 and not R360 . This method of taxation that we are discussing is the method adopted by the Republican Government. As the hon. Minister has stated , this applies to all the Bantu people in the Republic because we cannot single out the Transkei as this would present a difficulty in collecting the taxes . However , we are fortunate in that we have something like a parliament. The other people are given what the hon. the Chief Minister referred to as a " dummy" . Possibly they will not have an opportunity to speak out as we are speaking out on this question. We are able to express ourselves and tell the Republican Government what the Bantu people require .
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : the scales.
We are comparing
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you speak on the amendment , hon. member.
MR. MNYANI : The hon. Minister says we must not speak of Europeans when we discuss this because the Europeans in the Transkei are not taxed by this Government. I agree with him , but I said at the outset that this tax was being imposed by the European Government and the person who is going to sign this bill and make it an Act is still a European . Why should we not include White people in this discussion seeing they have a finger in the whole matter ? It has been constantly mentioned in this Assembly that as regards finances we cannot be regarded as being entirely separate from the Republic.
MR. MNYANI: I am referring to the remarks made by the hon. the Chief Minister just now.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That has always been going on. It is nothing new.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You must speak on the amendment or sit down if you have nothing to say.
MR . MNYANI : Does that mean it cannot be changed? The hon. the Chief Minister wants me to understand we have plenty of money in this country. South Africa is about the richest country, with gold that is mined by the African people and we want a share of that money.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This is not a House for agitation. Don't attack the Republican Government.
MR. MNYANI : We are supporting this amendment because we wish this system to be followed throughout the Republic when the Bantu people are taxed. (Interjections ) The fact that you
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Transkei , not the Republic .
are constantly wanting the European and Bantu people to be treated differently from us does not appeal to us because we say they should be paid the same and the taxable income should be the same.
MR. MNYANI : This R360 notch hits hard at the children who have just left school . In making comparisons we will find that the European child....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I did not understand the mover of the amendment to say that. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : talking about Europeans here .
This is the
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I still insist that the hon. member must discuss the tax proposals for the Transkei. We have no European citizens in the Transkei . I am appealing to you to bring this hon. member to order .
We are not
MR. MNYANI : The mover said the lowest taxable income for us is R360 , but the European figure is R600 and he wants the taxable income for the Africans to be increased to R400. (Interjections ) I must say more because I am supporting him. Let us not agree that an income of R360 is sufficient for a man to support his family.
MR. MNYANI : We are making comparisons , Mr. Chairman , and are not merely talking. We cannot mention this R360 notch without making comparisons with the income of different people . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are misleading everybody.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This is completely out of our bill. The Transkei Govern-
MR. MNYANI: I was saying that the children 371 .
who leave school at 18 years of age leave school , some of them, because they have not got the money to continue their studies . A young man seeks employment when he wants to go back to The hon. the Chief continue his education. and raise the improve to try should Minister educational standard of his people rather than see them leave school at J.C. These children will be taxed immediately they leave school instead of helping to educate their younger brothers . (Interjections ) It is for that reason that I say the income tax notch must be the same as the Europeans , even if we must pay more so that we will be enabled to claim the same salary level as is paid to the Europeans . (Interjections) It is for that reason that we want our teachers , our clerks , our employees to be paid on the same level , because when we ask for a rise we are told we do not pay the same taxes as the Europeans . He has constantly been saying we shall pay less than the European and he has been speaking about the European, but he does not want us to make a comparative study of the wages . Let us pay even if the taxes are heavier on us than on the European, but our doctors and teachers should receive the same salaries .
because it will be purely administrative as against where the taxpayer is called upon to submit his books to a nominated bookkeeper or accountant to have the books audited for income tax purposes . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, there will be no difficulty in this matter because there are several members on the staff of the receiver of revenue or assessing officer. The tax defaulter may submit these books through his bookkeeper. I think it should be left in the discretion of the taxpayers . MR. GUZANA : I was thinking that probably it places the officer or receiver in an invidious position, where he has to write up the books or, rather , to determine the taxable income and then assess the tax.
so. are
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, under sub- section 8 (1 ) it says that in accordance with the provisions of Chapter III such citizen shall not later than two months after the end of that year of assessment, or within such further period as any receiver may allow, render to a receiver a return of his income during the said year of assessment in the form prescribed by regulation. Would you please explain this?
The debate was adjourned. The
Assembly adjourned
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I do not think We have these men on the staff and they quite sufficient to cope with the work.
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Taxation Bill was resumed .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Look at page 10 of the Xhosa translation. Mr. Chairman , I have already moved the adoption of clause 8.
Clause 6 put and agreed to. On Clause 7 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, this section merely retains the section contained in the Bantu Taxation and Development Act of 1965 and is being retained for purposes of collecting local tax. It is not contentious and therefore I move the adoption.
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I do not think we can get through these measures too soon. After all , the members have to go out and explain these provisions to the public and we want to assist the Government in this particular regard by explaining this as clearly as possible , but if we do not understand how can we explain?
Clause put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : If you don't understand the English, turn to the Xhosa version.
On Clause 8 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This section relates to taxpayers who do not settle their liabilities by means of employees ' tax or provincial tax payments. They have to furnish returns on income . I move the adoption.
You turn to that and you MR. GUZANA : find it is the most complicated business . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: If he does not understand I am not going to explain. I am not in a classroom. It is as simple as ABC . I cannot make it any clearer.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Here there is provision under section 8 (3) giving the receiver or assessing officer authority to demand books , accounts , documents or information in respect of the citizen who has failed to submit a return. I was wondering whether or not it would not be wiser to give the receiver or assessing officer the right to nominate somebody to look into this. I am bearing in mind a bookkeeper , for instance , or an accountant who will work on the books at the expense of the defaulting taxpayer so that he may then submit the relevant information to the assessor or receiver. I can well contemplate a situation where the receiver is loaded with defaulters and work may not be expedited
Clause 8 put and agreed to.
On Clause 9 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Under this clause a receiver or assessing officer will obtain information from employers , agents , land-owners , etc. , regarding earnings and other income received . This is merely a re- enactment of existing legislation.
Clause put and agreed to. 372.
radio rel bi On Clause 10dome do tot Jot 300 26 MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman , under subsection (4) a taxpayer who is not satisfied may appeal to the Secretary. I wanted to know whether this is the only person to whom an appeal may be made and, further , what the previous method of appeal was. OV 4AM , 30 ASTE THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That was the method before , to the Secretary. There is nothing new in this section. The section provides for assessment on the existing basis . 97014 MM 49149 Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 11 MOMS BY THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This section merely provides for the times of payment and where payment should be made. There is nothing new and I move the adoption. MEN DA Clause put and agreed to.
On Clause 12507 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I move the adoption of Clause 12 which merely provides that time ? of payment may be extended. That is in the discretion of the receiver.
The Government derives benefit from the savings in post offices as it can use that money in the interests of the country. Further , some people take shares in building societies and we would like people to be encouraged to adopt these methods of saving. I take it that sub- section (v), awards and benefits , refers to compensation paid to people who are possibly maimed or injured in the mines and the money paid to them should be wholly theirs . I maintain it should be so and so do all the people who are sympathetic with people who work in the mines and such other undertakings . I wonder if I can also go on to paragraph (d) ? Under paragraph (d) we would like married people to be exempt if they are earning less than R600 . Suppose such a person has three children in a secondary or high school . In the bill before the House there is no section which gives consideration to such a person, whereas there are other income tax regulations which allow rebates for each child in the family. A person whose income is less than R600 and who has dependants must depend entirely on his R600 . He is not in the same position as one whose income is R600 and who has no dependants . It is for that reason that we appeal to the Government to consider such people as I have just mentioned who are affected by these tax regulations . MR.N.JAFTA:
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, we can infer from the amendments of the hon. member across the floor that as far as he is concerned he would very much wish that no taxes are paid at all .
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 13
agnard
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This clause is merely a recapitulation of existing provisions for tax exemptions .
CHIEF NDAMASE : That is not so.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I To add move the amendment as recorded : new sub- section (c) to section (3) of section 13, reading as follows:-re
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Ample provision for his amendment is found in (a) of section 13(3) which reads as follows - that a person will bexexempted if he satisfies the receiver of revenue that he is indigent and is prevented by reason of age , chronic disease or other cause not within his control from earning sufficient to enable him to pay such tax. Now, he says that a civil pensioner , even if he has a shop or some other income , should not pay income tax at all because civil pensioners after being pensioned off do sometimes engage in some form of business or other. I refer to civil pensioners who apply for pensions before the age of 65. At 65 a pensioner is entitled to apply for an exemption. I do not know what you want. You are striving so hard to see that people do not pay taxes at all .
"That he receives
(i) (ii) (iii) (iv) (v)
I second the amendment .
civil pension retirement annuity war pension accruals from investments awards and benefits under any law relating to payment of compensation"
and a new sub- section (d) reading as follows :"That he is married and receives an income up to and including R600.00 per annum. 369 0 Mr. Chairman, sub- section (c) aims at the civil pensioners being exempted from paying tax. I take it that a person receiving a pension is aged and the pension he receives is merely for maintenance, as he is not expected to be an income-earning person any more . Similarly in regard to receivers of retirement annuities and war pensions . As regards accruals from investments , I am referring to interest derived from money invested. If the interest is going to be taxable then the people will be frightened of making any savings , whereas the Government should encourage the people to save money.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Minister, I think the idea behind the amendment is this (if I may make a further comment so that when you make your comments you may bear that in mind) : A civil pensioner may be drawing a pension of R150 and may be engaged in business which gives him a taxable income of R500 . The idea is that the amount of R150 which is a pension should not be added to the amount of R500 to bring it up to R650 so that his taxable income is R650 . Thus , though he is a civil pensioner , if he is earning a taxable income of R500 he should be taxed on the R500 , but he should be exempt in
373 .
ren. I said for other amounts such as policies , which you questioned , but not for children. 1 explained we have no reduction for children as far as this tax is concerned . sokat e (b)
respect of the R150 which should not be taken into account in determining his taxable income . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I do not think that is the amendment of the hon. member for Ngqeleni . Iam dealing with the amendment. The hon. member says even retired people should not pay taxes at all , even when they are in a position to pay. There is an age fixed by law where you can apply for exemption. We are not going to allow people who have a huge income to escape taxation because they have retired from work.
CHIEF D.D.P.ND AM ASE : reductions in all this.ÁNÍ 23:
You have no hwy obera Terry's THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I explained that in terms of the income tax regulations you will submit your expenses to the receiver of revenue and they will be considered. CHIEF NDAMASE : for that in this bill ?
MR . GUZANA : Again, Sir , a man may have reached the age when he is entitled to an exemption but he may be earning an income of R4,000 or R5,000 beyond that age . Such a man should be taxed. That is our contention, because the fact that he has reached the age of 65 years has not affected his income -earning capacity, so that I may there is an adjustment either way. continue to the age of 70 , and beyond 65 may earn a taxable income of R6,000 or R7,000 . Is the Government to lose the revenue from that taxable income?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : There are provisions which have not been repealed in the Income Tax Act and they still apply. This You don't want to pay taxes is the position: at all. (Interjections) I know my hon. friend from Ngqeleni will apply for increases in salaries and everything and this Act will just bring this money down to the Assembly. As Minister of Finance I must see before I make provision for a service that there is revenue to cover it. (Interjections ) I am telling you, you make fantastic claims from the Minister of Finance and he must have the revenue to carry out what you are asking. You are all for exempting people from taxes and at the same time you want them to live .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I am referring to the basic of R2-50 . Now, with regard to a man who is rich and has a lot of income, do you mean to say that man must not pay taxes to the country because he has retired from being a civil servant and accumulated so much wealth that he does not know what to do with it? MR . GUZANA :
Is there any provision
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman , it looks as though these amendments are as clear as daylight, if not clearer. They are so good that we really ought to have them. Both these amendments take regard of the fact that these people we are referring to are people who have been taxed by the Government and it seems they will be so further taxed that they will finally collapse . Here is a person who gets compensation and that person has suffered for whatever compensation he gets . Now we must further lay a further burden on him to make him suffer more .
He knows what to do with it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I am looking at the amendment and it says that if a man receives a civil pension or a retirement annuity and so on, but he may have other assets apart Should he not pay tax ? Usually from that. a civil pension is lower than the amount which is taxable . It is in rare cases that it is more. Well , the State must get something in order to pay for the services to the community. MR. GUZANA: No , but that pension should not be added to his taxable income,
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : There is additional tax now, but you have never seen the people suffer from that.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Why not? If he still has income he must continue to contribute to the revenue of the State.
MR. MGUDLWA: Let us include these amendments so that we may not leave a gap by which people may be taxed more. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : nothing new in these provisions .
MR. GUZANA: In respect of his other income not in respect of his pension.
There is
MR. MGUDLWA: Indeed, I think these amendments are quite right and proper , even though the truth at times is not very pleasant to consider. I was of opinion that the whole House would be unanimous that these two amendments be incorporated . With these few words I support the mover of the amendment.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Anyway, I am not accepting these amendments . I explained that this was a fixed tax and it has nothing to do with children at all. I explained the difference now between the Income Tax Act and the additional general tax. It is far lower, even if you have children, and you pay far less than you would pay under income tax laws.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I do not know how much I have to say in order to put everything in the thick skulls of my hon. friends across the floor . I cannot agree to the principle involved in the amendment at all , for it means that a man with, say, R100,000 in the bank or a building society receiving perhaps
MR. GUZANA : You remember telling me that taxable income is determined in terms of the Income Tax Act. The Income Tax Act includes these rebates. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Not for child-
374.
R7,000 per annum interest on investment should not be taxed. That is the principle involved. MR. GUZANA : that?
he has paid his tax , puts whatever is left into investments in order to derive interest. (Interjections ) It is his salary that he is saving and he maintains that the interest on that money invested must be taxed so that the person pays twice on the same amount of income.
What African is capable of
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It would even exempt the money in shares and the man who receives dividends on those investments . That is the principle involved. It would exempt a civil pensioner who need not necessarily be a poor man from paying tax. A man with 500 sheep or a hundred head of cattle....
MR. GUZANA : We did not say that. said the pension should not be taxed.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are conOn a point of order , Mr. Chairman , I fused. think the hon. member must put the House in order and interpret me correctly. When your salary is R40 a month and R10 of that money goes to your pension contributions , that amount which goes to pension is not taxable. You are taxed on the income , the money that is paid to Why do you say you are taxed twice ? you. You are not taxed on the money deducted for your pension contributions . Now when it comes out and has to be given to you, we have to tax you for it because you have not been taxed on it before.
We
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The amendment does not say that. It says a civil pensioner should be exempted from taxes . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : pension should not be taxable .
It says a civil THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, in the first place the hon. member for Ngqeleni said a lot of things here which are not contained in his amendment. I do not know
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , that is the man who receives a civil pension should not be taxed . You don't say the pension should not be taxed. You say the person.
whether perhaps it was shortage of terms and expressions on his part. This section he is adding here as (c) should be read in the same manner as (a) and (b) , where it says that various types of persons will be exempted and he adds that amongst those people will be those people who receive (i) a civil pension. I can well understand that in his own mind he meant to say that the pension he receives must not be taxable but, unfortunately, it does not say so in his amendment and it is this amendment which will form part of this bill, if it is agreed to. Now, according to this and as the hon. the Minister of Finance said , even if a man has got a big shop , if he can just show to the receiver of revenue that he has a civil pension, according to this he must be exempted. Or , if he proves that he receives a retirement annuity , even if he has a big shop, a number of cattle , or a large farm and if he receives a war pension he must be exempted. Now it means that just by reason of the fact that the man is receiving these things , even if he has some other assets he must not be taxed. That is what it means according to this amendment, so that apart from what you have told this House , which is not in line with your amendment....
MR. GUZANA: The idea was conveyed to you by the speaker . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : deal with ideas.
No , I don't
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is the amendment that will go into the statute book. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The people whom you seek to exempt are probably the most well-to-do people and the people who can afford to pay the taxes , while the poor man who only gets R360 is called upon to pay additional tax. Usually these men who have been employed in the civil service have huge investments .....
MR. GUZANA : taxed.
Which have already been
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: ....with very big interests . I just cannot agree to these amendments at all . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Finance is merely being obstinate. He understands clearly that we maintain it is the civil pension which should not be taxed .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : But what you say has been said by the hon. the Chief Minister . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But you don't understand even though it has been said several times . That is the trouble .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But it is not taxable while you are saving it. It is deducted from the taxable income .
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Chief Minister gave an example of a person earning R40 and paying R10 towards his pension and he will be taxed on the R30 .
CHIEF NDAM ASE: This civil pension comes from the income derived from the tax which has already been paid by this individual . Referring to accruals from investments , he says that a person with a huge investment who receives a large interest from that investment should be exempted from income tax according to the amendment, but I would like my hon. friend to remember that the person referred to , after
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , that is your taxable income. MR . MNYANI : There are people who work in these factories and big firms . On their 375 .
the point.
pay-sheet R10 a week will be noted and thereafter the deductions are indicated . For tax purposes will it be stated that you are paying on the balance and not on the total wage, or not?
The first amendment put and lost. The second amendment put and lost by 19 votes to 47 after a division as follows:-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , that is
YESES.
NOES. Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enock ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani TELLERS : 1. 2.
L.L. Mgudlwa L.I. Cemane
TOTAL 19
TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
TOTAL 47
Clause put and agreed to .
Clause 13 put and agreed to.
On Clause 15 On Clause 14 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This clause makes possible the deduction from wages for arrears in basic tax.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, this is a repetition of existing legislation which authorizes certain officers to request proof of payment or extension of time or exemptions . Then, of course , it provides for arrests of persons .
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 16 376 .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This section provides for refunds of overpayments subject to certain conditions . It is clear and self-explanatory. These applications for refunds have to be made to the Secretary.
acting for Jamangile's son during the early stages of this Legislative Assembly. He was a quiet and well-disposed man who had the affection of all his colleagues , both in this House and in the region of Emigrant Tembuland . His untimely death will be mourned by all who had established acquaintance with him during his lifetime . The funeral is being arranged for Saturday, 14th June. This House is requested to adopt a unanimous motion of condolence with the deceased's wife and family, and also a wish that Thank you , his son should recover speedily. Mr. Chairman.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 17 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, taxes and penalties . payable in terms of the Act are debts to the Government and they may be recovered as if a civil judgement had been made in favour of the Secretary for the amount involved. Thus a writ of execution may be issued for the recovery of arrear tax. I move the adoption.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to associate this side of the House with the expressions of sorrow and condolence expressed in this House by the hon. the Chief Minister in connection with the untimely passing of Chief Stokwe. It is true that in the midst of life we are in death, as exemplified today. Our sympathies go to the tribesmen over whom he was chief, the amaQwati tribe , as well as to members of his family. It is our sincerest wish and desire that his son who is in hospital may be nursed back to health. There are many ways by which man can serve , either in active service among his people or by sitting quietly in the corner and serving in quietness . Chief Stokwe upheld the dignity of this Assembly in a proper and fitting manner .
Clause put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House adjourn until Monday and I move that the Chairman reports progress. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
House Resumed The
Deputy Chairman reported progress. The members stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Chief.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 9th June, 1969.
TRANSKEI TOWNSHIPS AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING
MONDAY , 9th JUNE, 1969
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I indicated on Friday last week I wish to move the first reading of the Transkei Townships Amendment Bill , 1969 . Unfortunately the translations are not yet ready and I accordingly seek the permission of the Assembly in terms of rule 98 (b) to introduce it in one language only.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , the sad news of the untimely passing of Chief Ndlakuse stokwe, the acting chief of the amaQwati clan, will be received by the members of this House with deep sorrow and consternation. As you know, he quietly occupied his seat at the corner of the opposite side which is occupied by the Government members in this Assembly on Friday, 6th June , before proceeding home for a weekend. At Stokwe's Basin, about three miles from Askeaton on the main road from Cala to Lady Frere , Chief Stokwe's car , driven by his own son who was blinded by the bright lights from an oncoming car , went right into the back of a tractor's trailer which was carrying logs of wood from the forest. Apparently this trailer had no back stop lights . The logs of wattle penetrated the windscreen right into Stokwe's head and body, right through the back of the car . He died quietly in Cala Hospital that night while his son lay in the same hospital , suffering from multiple injuries . Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe was a nominated member of this House as he was acting chief in the place of the hereditary chief, the late Jamangile Stokwe , who also died as a result of a car accident. Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe was a nominated member ofthis House as he was
Agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I move that the bill be read a first time.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE CHAIRMAN: reading ?
What date for the second
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Tomorrow, Mr. `Chairman, or so soon thereafter. TRANSKEI ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 , I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation to the Assembly for the amendment of Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 in so far as it applies to the Transkei . I move that the bill be read a first time. 377.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
an arrangement as between employer and employee is entered into authorizing the employer to deduct the full tax at one time , rather than in instalments , there would be no breach of any regulations or provisions of this bill if that is done?
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The second reading will take place tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter . TRANSKEI
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Certainly not . All the Treasury wants is the tax.
TAXATION BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 20.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House now sit in committee. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee The debate was resumed. On Clause 18 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in moving clause 18 of Chapter III, I just want to make it clear to the House that from clause 18 to clause 39 I will give only one motivation - namely, that this Chapter III which is divided into Parts I, II and III, has been drafted on the lines of Schedule 4 of the Income Tax Act of 1962 and provides : (a) for deductions by employers from remuneration in respect of employees ' tax and for paying over such amounts to the Government; and for the payment of provisional tax by persons who derive by way of income any amount which is not remuneration and for other incidental matters . The only difference is that this money has to be deducted by the employers from the employees ' taxes , otherwise these sections are the same as you will find in Schedule 4 of the Income Tax Act, 1962. I move the adoption of clause 18.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Minister of Finance is now evading his responsibility to motivate , but I think relevant to this section is the position where an employee is taken on by an employer at a certain wage , the tax is assessed on his income in the expectation that for the tax year the employee will continue to be in the service of the employer. If the employee is on a daily or monthly basis he may terminate his services with the employer and this may result in the employee being taken on by some other employer , whether at a higher wage or at a lower wage. Do I understand that the employee , if he is over-taxed in terms of his assessment made by the first employer, will be able to claim the deduction? My experience with Government Departments is that they like to receive money but they find it a bit hard to part with it. Will these deductions be facilitated without a lot of red tape ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the questions asked by the hon. member are answered in the subsequent sections of this bill. Section 29 , for example , says that every employer shall in respect of each employee maintain a record showing the amounts of remuneration paid or due by him to such employee . In other words, every employer has to keep a record of payments he has to make and should he at any time fire the employee he has got to advise the receiver of the dismissal. If he should reduce the emoluments he is compelled to keep a record of that and he cannot deduct from the employees ' wages more than he is entitled to do. But should he do it , the employee has a right to appeal to the Secretary.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I would just like to know, to get the position nearer home, in connection with the members of this Assembly will it be taken off their salaries or will the members themselves pay? I do know that under the old system we paid about R5 a year. Could the hon. Minister give us an idea of about how much it will be under the new system so that we can bring the position nearer home?
MR. GUZANA : The point I was canvassing a man is employed for six months and where is then terminates his service . His taxable income has been worked out by his employer and deductions made . He leaves his employer either to get no employment or to get employment at a lower wage .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The Treasury will deduct all taxes from the members ' salaries . If you want to know how much you will pay, look up page 39 on your copies . The tables are there to show you how much, but in any event you will find out next year how much you have got to pay after the deductions have been made . The sessional allowance is tax-free . You won't pay tax on that.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , he will be taxed on his earnings for the six months or , if he was employed for three months, he will be taxed on three months ' earnings . MR. GUZANA: But don't you take it on the If he is employed at income for the year? R10 a month, that is R120 a year and you work out the tax for which he is liable on that income.
Clause 18 put and agreed to. On Clause 19 MR. K.M. GUZANÁ :
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , then he will be taxed for the amount he earns on a year's
Mr. Chairman, where
378.
basis . If he was paid R10 a month by that particular employer the question asked is how many rand he will be paid per annum. If it is R120 it is free of tax, and even if it is R20 per annum it is tax-free. Let us take R100 a month , then you get R1,200 a year and you work out the tax on that. If he works three months he has got to be taxed on those three months . MR. GUZANA: But the taxable income total for the year may be lower by reason of the fact that the subsequent employment gives him a lesser remuneration than the previous one .
MR. GUZANA: No , he is employing him for that and paying him.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 23 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This is the only agreement between the parties that is not allowed by law. I move the adoption.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 24
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Well , that cannot be helped. We always assume the man is going to work for longer than a year , but if it is found at the end of the tax year that his emoluments do not amount to the taxable income then the whole amount will be refunded.
Clause 20 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The motivation here is that the employee cannot claim from the employer any amount that has been deducted in terms of this law. He can only make his claim from the Secretary.
On Clause 21
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Not the receiver originally and then to the Secretary?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This section merely provides for punishment to be inflicted on the employers if they fail to deduct taxes .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He can do it but I think the Secretary is the proper person to authorize repayment of this amount.
MR . L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman , in connection with sub- section 21 (1 ) I want to know what reasonable precautions have been taken in connection with the employer who fails to deduct or withhold the full amount of the employee's tax, where an employer furnishes a reasonable explanation as to the failure. Perhaps an employer may advance an employee because he has come to his employer to say his children are sick or something else and then the employer advances him money and after that the man absconds .
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman, there is something I would like explained as regards the employers , even though I may seem to be going back on what has been discussed , especially as regards the provision that the employee cannot claim anything direct from his employer in regard to these deductions. I
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, this question is answered in sub-section (2). "Where the employer has failed to deduct or withhold employees ' tax in terms of section 18 and the Secretary is satisfied that the failure was not due to an intent to postpone payment of the tax or to evade the employer's obligations under this Chapter, the Secretary may, if he is satisfied that there is a reasonable prospect of ultimately recovering the tax from the employee , absolve the employer from his liability under sub- section (1). " That is clear .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in the subsequent sections you will find that the employer has got to issue a certificate that these moneys have been paid and this certificate must be given to the employee . If there should be any over -charges the employee has recourse to the Secretary for Finance . You need not worry about this because the thing is so air-tight that no cheating can take place .
MR. MGUDLWA: So there may be a reasonable prospect of recovering the amount ifthe man has absconded? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That depends on the explanation given by the employer.
Clause 21 put and agreed to. On Clause 22 Mr. Chairman , my MR. K.M. GUZANA: worry here is that the employer gets nothing from the Government for collecting , this tax for the Government. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : labour.
He gets the
0379 .
wonder if there is any precaution taken as regards this matter because there are some employers who may be making deductions from the wages of their employees on the pretext that they are paying the tax for the employee.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman , suppose a deduction is made from the wages of the employee and thereafter the employee falls sick, how will he be assisted by his employer in that difficulty? And suppose his earnings amount to R5 a month, how much would the deduction be and how much will be left over for the employee ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I would request the members to be patient because we have these answers with full replies in the subsequent sections. In my motivation I said that from section 18 to section 39 the drafting of this bill is the same as in Schedule 4 of the Income Tax Act of 1962. Now, I will draw the attention of the hon. member to clause 27 where the answer is given. It says that in order to alleviate hardship to any employee due to illness or other circumstances , or to correct any error in regard to the calculation
of the employees tax a receiver may, having regard to the circumstances of the case , issue a directive to the employer concerned authorizing the employer to refrain from deducting or withholding any amount under section 18 by way of employees ' tax from any remuneration due to the employee or to deduct or withhold by way of employees ' tax a specified amount or an amount to be determined in accordance with a specified rate or scale , and the employer shall comply with such directive .
MR. GUZANA : I understand that section , but my worry is in connection with sub- section (2) which says that any tables prescribed by the Secretary in accordance with sub- section (1 ) shall come into force on such date as may be notified by the Secretary in the Official Gazette , and shall remain in force until withdrawn by the Secretary. If there is a bill relating to these amended tables is the Secretary now empowered by notice inthe Official Gazette to amend that bill ? That is why my question is that these should be tabled before the House .
Clause 24 put and agreed to. On Clause 25 MR. K.M. GUZANA: Just on this section, Sir, which gives the Secretary power to amend tax tables, I see that there is provision for such amended tables to be brought into force by notice in the Official Gazette . I wonder if it would not be correct that where there is such an amended table such an amended table should be tabled in this House at its next sitting? I am hoping that the powers given tothe Secretary under sub-section 25 (1 ) will be used circumspectly. I may say that quite a number of people who will have to pay will get financial toothache if, right before Christmas , the tables are adjusted to make you liable for one-third more than you are paying, or half as much as you were paying . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I want to alleviate the anxiety of hon. members by saying there would be a bill before the House before any such variation is made. MR . GUZANA : You see, the Secretary can do it administratively and I am seeking that the amended table ....
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This amended table will be based on the Minister's budget statement for that particular financial year.
MR. GUZANA : Are you suggesting that if the Secretary should find that this table should be amended, say perhaps in October which is in mid-tax year, then those tables shall not be applicable until .... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : budget statement is made. MR. GUZANA: here.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : If he alters any of these tables they shall not be tabled until such time as there is a bill to increase or reduce the amount to be paid. If he makes an amendment of the tables they will be made on the amounts that have to be paid by the employees. MR. GUZANA: May I just make a comment, Mr. Chairman? I read this to give this meaning : The Minister of Finance may require funds and in his budget speech and in his Appropriation Bill estimate for increased revenue which he contemplates will come in because there is going to be an amended table . Then the Secretary gazettes these amended tables , fixing the date from which they will be applicable . Now it seems he is also given power to withdraw the amended tables by notice in the Gazette . Now, if those amended tables are part of the bill which will become an Act then he cannot amend those tables which are part of that Act until parliament legislates on that matter. That is my trouble. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : There may be no deduction or increase in taxes until the Minister has submitted a budget statement to parliament. The Secretary does not act alone he acts with the department and together with the Minister in everything he does .
MR. GUZANA : To cut it short, are you suggesting that during a tax year these tables shall not be amended and that their amendment will only be subsequent to a budget statement? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , or a bill before the House.
Until the Clause 25 put and agreed to. Clauses 26 to 28 put and agreed to.
No , it does not look like it
On Clause 29 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : " The Secretary shall from time to time, having regard to the amount of the general tax based on income which is payable or is foreshadowed by the Minister in a budget statement, and to any other factors having a bearing upon the probable liability of taxpayers for the said tax, prescribe deduction tables applicable to such classes of employees as he may determine, and the manner in which such tables shall be applied , and the amount of employees ' tax to be deducted from any amount of remuneration shall, subject tothe provisions of section 26 and 27 , be determined in accordance with such tables."
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, may I make this comment B that I hope receivers will consider applications for an extension of time favourably whenever such applications are made, because the employer has his commitments to his business and may well not be able to comply with these requirements within the period specified , and that the receiver therefore will be disposed to granting extensions of time. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : in the provisions .
380.
We have it
MR . GUZANA: Yes, but while we have the provision the receiver may say No.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 32
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , but the law is there .
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , this is a rather difficult matter and we would like a little explanation on this . There are African traders and it may wel happen that this trader According is a member of this Assembly.
Clause 29 put and agreed to.
to this bill the PAYE system will be used all the time and the traders have to submit returns of all they possess - ploughs , cattle , fowls ,
On Clause 30 MR. K.M. GUZANA: Will this be applicable to employers who pay wages which qualify for the additional tax where an employer, for instance , is paying R6 or R7 a month? Should he apply to be registered as an employer ? Sub-section (1) says that every person being an employer required to deduct or withhold employees ' tax as provided in section 18 should apply to the receiver for registration as an employer. That would mean you are not classified as an employer if you do not pay your employee a wage that is taxable? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : if you pay him over R360 .
pigs , etc. , and even the dead animals he possesses . Among other things he is asked to give the value of the stock he owns at the beginning of the year and previous to now all that was contained in the single return submitted by the trader. I would like to know if after the passing of this bill there will be some items which have to be left out of this income tax return, because one will have to have a balance sheet of the business. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The taxpayers will be taxed on the actual income they receive and not on their wagons , ploughs , etc. , which are standing on the farm , but every taxpayer will have to make returns for the purposes of this section in order that his tax shall be assessed in accordance with the income he receives. For example , if you sell your produce and realise R1,000 you will be taxed on that amount and not on the produce while it is standing on your farm . In any event, if that does not appear in your books the buyer will catch you out. If you sel . so many head of cattle the buyer will reflect that in his books and actually inform you that that amount is taxable . In other words, honourable chief, you will be taxed on the actual income that you have received at the end of every financial year.
Yes , only
MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , here is another point that is worrying me. There is the basic general tax of R2-50 . I suppose that is paid irrespective of income? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes. MR. GUZANA : Now, you say in spite of that, although the employer may have to deduct that from the wages of his employee whose wage is less than R360 he need not apply to be registered as an employer?
not
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, he is compelled to deduct that amount either.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, following upon the illustration just given by the hon. the Chief Minister that if your haverst amounts to so many bags which bring in R1,000 , which wil be the actual taxable income seeing that you incur expense in the actual maize realised?
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, now this is developing into something quite significant. You see, the employee has to pay the basic general tax of R2-50 and he may be one of those fellows who wants to evade paying the tax and yet, if the employer were to seek registration so that he should deduct this R2-50 , then it would ensure that the tax is paid , even by these tax evaders .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You have to show your expenditure in your return and then you will be taxed on the difference between what you realise and the expenses you have incurred .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The basic ' amount of R2-50 is not subject to the PAYE regulations you find in this bill. It is only the people who earn more than R360 who are going to fall under these sections .
Clause 32 put and agreed to. On Clause 33 MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I may be anticipating a subsequent section but I would like to make this comment: This provisional tax, I take it, will be paid half-yearly. That is , at that stage the provisional taxpayer shall be in a position to estimate what his income for the year will probably be. Is my impression correct in that regard, because I can imagine a person making an estimate at the beginning of the financial year without having gone through half the year in order to get an idea of what his taxable income would be?
Clause 30 put and agreed to . On Clause 31 MR. K.M. GUZANA : This liability of the representative of the employer absolves the principal employer from obligations under these sections of the Act · is that the position? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , the representative of the employer is subject to all the responsibilities of the principal employer andthe principal employer is therefore absolved .
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Look at subsection 35 (a).
381 .
On Clause 39
MR. GUZANA : Yes , that fixes the date of liability. What I am concerned with is whether that date of liability after six months is the same as the date when an assessment of the probable income will be made .
MR . K.M. GUZANA : Will you just explain why employees ' tax which has been paid by the employee through the employer should be set off against the tax liability of the employer? After all , I deduct the employees ' tax from the wages so that all I need to do is to deduct the full May I just give an wages from my income . example to explain my point? Supposing my income is R2,000 , I have an employee to whom I pay R600 , I have deducted from this R600 the employee's tax which I have already paid to the receiver. Now, in my view what I have to deduct from my gross income of R2,000 is the R600 and I have to deduct portion of the wages paid to the employee plus the amount deducted in respect of the employee's tax .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE ; You have a tax assessed for a certain particular year and it is taken for granted that during the following financial year you will still have to pay the same amount, and that is why the deduction is 6 made half-yearly. If at the end of the year it is found that you have earned more than it was anticipated , then you have got to pay the whole amount, or if you have to pay less than was anticipated.
MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, those who have been subject to income tax payment have had to submit their annual assessment of income after six months from the date of the beginning of the taxable year . Now, what I want to know is whether or not the same will apply here , so that if I have to pay, for instance , for the year 1971/1972 then I submit that in order to make a reasonably correct or as near correct as possible an estimation of the taxable income I should submit my statement of provisional tax at the end of August and at the same time pay the provisional tax then. Is that going to be the position?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member should read this section and he will find that these deductions are set off against the taxpayer's liability and not the employer's liability. In other words , when these deductions have been made then the taxpayer is not liable any more . MR. GUZANA: It shows he has already paid that amount? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes . Clause 39 put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You can make your estimation and that estimation will be sufficient. If you estimate that in six months you will have made so much....
On Clause 40 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, these sections deal with offences . Section 40 deals with offences in connection with contraventions of these sections and penalties are provided.
MR. GUZANA : Yes, Mr. Minister , if I may just explain. Here is the taxable year of twelve months . At the end of the first six months I submit my returns for the purposes of provisional tax payment and when I submit those returns , they relate to the whole year covering the six months previous to the time of the first payment and also covering the six months subsequent. What I would not like to happen is for a man at the beginning of the financial year to estimate his income for the whole year but rather that he should estimate it for the first six months , pay his provisional tax , but the assessment of his income should cover both the past six months and the forthcoming six months . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : position.
Mr. Chairman, just MR. K.M. GUZANA : beyond the ( z ) , in sub - section ( 2) ( a ) doesn't the hon. the Minister of Finance feel that the maximum alternative fine is rather high? It is R400 or a period of imprisonment not exceeding six months , or to both such fine and such imprisonment. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is not high. MR. GUZANA : I am persuaded to feel it is rather high when you take into account that a breach may well be a very minor one and not such large sums of money will be involved in this infringement , except of course in cases of dishonest information. When I speak of dishonest information I am referring to false returns . By and large the income earned by the African even in business is very low indeed , and the penalty should not be so high , or the maximum should not be so high.
That is the
Clause 33 put and agreed to.
Clauses 34 and 35 put and agreed to. On Clause 36 MR. K.M. GUZANA: I take it there is no interest charged on the provisional tax which is not paid on the last date of the period of six months? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE :
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the maximum penalty under this section is provided for serious cases . That is why I say the maximum will be this. It is in the discretion of the court to reduce the penalty when the case is of a trivial nature . Now, when you think of this maximum fine or period of imprisonment that is to be imposed , you think of a serious case.
No.
Clause put and agreed to. Clauses 37 and 38 put and agreed to. 382.
Clause 40 put and agreed to .
will be payable before the 1st June each year . The additional general tax will also be payable from the 1st March, 1970 , and collected either monthly in terms of the PAYE system or six-monthly in terms of the provisional tax provisions. The effect of this will be that, inter alia , no additional general tax will be payable on income received or accrued during the period 1st March , 1969 , to the 28th February , 1970. With effect from 1st March , 1970 , the Income Tax Act will no longer apply to Bantu persons , including the Transkei , but up to the time this Act applies you will continue to pay taxes as you have been paying. There will be no interval. I move the adoption of this section.
On Clause 41 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : These presumptions are essential , especially in this particular bill or any other bill on taxation. Well , I would have MR. K.M. GUZANA: been surprised if there were no presumptions . It seems to be the malady of every Government to have these presumptions . (Laughter)
Clause 41 put and agreed to . On Clause 42
Clause 45 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman , all I have to say on this is that it is in connection with matters on which the Minister of Finance can make regulations .
Schedule THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the schedule provides for the repeal of the Bantu Taxation and Development Act and other laws amplifying that Act in so far as matters are concerned which now fall away or are consolidated in the bill before the Assembly. I have finished now, Mr. Chairman , and I move that the whole of the Transkei Taxation Bill , 1969 , be adopted.
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 43 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, before moving this clause I just wish to explain that the clause re -enacts with some amendments the existing provisions of the Bantu Taxation and Development Act, 1925 , which can be used for the recovery of rent or other moneys due to the Government in respect of occupation of land. I should therefore explain that the Republican Parliament will legislate in order to extend the application of the PAYE system to the rest of the Republic in order to recover all taxes due to the Transkei revenue fund . This was one reason why it was found advisable to align the tax tariff of the Transkei with that of the Republic . There will thus be no necessity for employers to distinguish between Transkei citizens and other Bantu persons when making PAYE deductions . I move the adoption of this clause.
The whole bill put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I move that the Deputy Chairman report that the bill has been accepted without amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second.
Agreed to. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Taxation Bill has been accepted by the committee without amendment.
Clause 43 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The third reading will be tomorrow, Mr. Chairman.
On Clause 44 S THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Under this section the existing taxation laws are repealed but more details will be provided when the schedule is dealt with.
The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
Clause put and agreed to. On Clause 45
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House goes into committee on the Agricultural Development Amendment Bill.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The existing Act is being repealed with effect from the 1st January, 1970 , with the result that the taxes which would normally have become due and payable on the 1st January , 1970 , that is, the basic general tax for the 1970 calendar year and the additional general tax based on income for the 1968/1969 year of assessment - fall away. We shall continue in terms ofthe present law up to the time when this Act applies and from the 1st January, 1970 , the new laws will become operative . The basic tax of R2-50 will become due at the beginning of March and
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
-
Agreed to. House in Committee
On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , section 1 (a)
383.
has been inserted because of the new sections relating to fires and veld- burning. It has therefore become necessary to insert the definition of the word " fire belt" . Also, in section 1 (b), previously a chief or headman was only considered an officer of the Government for the purposes of sections 25 ( 1 ) and (27) . The amendment now seeks to empower a chief and also to make him responsible for the impounding of contravening livestock under section 22. In section 29 (a) it places the chief or headman in the position of the owner of private land or a Government officer so that he can take all the necessary steps to have fire belts cleared on common boundaries of properties. Not only can he be given notice by a neighbour , but he can also give notice to a neighbour. This is the motivation on the amendment of the definition, Mr. Chairman, and I now move that it be accepted.
lines of always excluding the people who have not accepted rehabilitation, one day you will find that the people will refuse to accept rehabilitation. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member please discuss this clause which is an amendment of section 20 of Act No. 10 of 1966 . I thought I was discussing MR. MNYANI : that. I am therefore appealing that the people who have not accepted rehabilitation should also be able to get these thoroughbred breeds because if their stock is improved they might also be persuaded later to accept rehabilitation. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE :
Mr. Chairman,
there seems to be something missing here. In his speech the hon. the Minister of Agriculture mentioned that the thoroughbred sires would be sold to members of breeding societies or some other body or bodies to be formed , so that the Transkei farmers will be able to breed good bulls within the Transkei for resale to other Transkei farmers. Does he mean that these suitable breeds will only be sold to persons belonging to bodies and will not be sold to individuals?
Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : This clause is self- evident. As is explained in the second reading, "improved sires " we want replaced by the words " suitable livestock" .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : start.
For a
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Further on he says: "I wish to make it clear, however , that it is intended initially only for a very few carefully selected areas and on a limited scale." What type of carefully selected areas does he visualize and how will this be limited , because the people are on communal grazing? How will these breeds be kept pure in communal grazing areas ? I would understand if his department had a land bank from which people would be given loans to buy farms , but there is no provision for that in the Transkei . How can these be kept pure breeds?
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, would the hon, Minister explain further the meaning of " suitable livestock" ? What particular breeds does he refer to here? There are certain breeds that we do not have in the studs where we buy sires . We would like him to explain exactly what breeds he is referring to. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Before the hon. Minister replies to the question put to him by the hon. member, I would like to put question to him as well . Will members of the public all be enabled to buy these breeds that the Government is talking about? I am asking this because there are those of us in the municipal areas who own a few cows and we are just like the people in the reserves . We are not allowed to enjoy these privileges to be enabled to buy either thoroughLikewise as regards bred bulls or heifers. the agricultural co-operatives - we had a co-operative but the Government would not accept the registration of that co- operative society. We were trying to have the society registered but We were the application was turned down. encouraged by the officers in the Department of Agriculture because they were keen that we should make a beginning with this artificial insemination, because the people in the Gqogqora area did not really follow this method , but the people resident in the Ncambedlana municipal area willingly accepted this scheme and they were discouraged when they were informed that the agricultural co-operative could not be registered by the Government. I would further appeal to the Government to make provision so that these thoroughbred stock be made available to people in unrehabilitated areas. They should not be used as a means to persuade people to accept rehabilitation. If you continue on those
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman , although the question raised by the hon. member for Umtata is irrelevant (in connection with co-operatives ) I would advise him to submit to me a copy of the constitution for his co-operative and I shall find out why it was not accepted for registration. The term "suitable livestock" is made deliberately wide so that the department can decide on suitable livestock for the different areas , as well as for the Transkei as a whole; nor does it refer only to cattle . Now, one of the reasons why we mentioned breeding societies was the very one that the hon. member for Ngqeleni questioned at the end of his speech. The breeding societies would be the best people to keep the breeds pure , that is why we would prefer to start where there can be breeding societies . All Transkei citizens , however , are free to avail themselves of the opportunity of acquiring animals although the first preference and limitations will be given as stated, to make sure as far as possible that the experiment will be a success . Do you mean, CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Sir, that the individual will never benefit by this ? 384 .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : said they would.
But I
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What are you discussing now? om It was from that that we MR. MAJIJA: discovered this was a Jersey breed , when the agricultural officers could not say exactly what it was . We appeal to them that in judging these animals they must do so carefully.
CHIEF NDAMASE : How?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I said they are free to acquire any animals .
MR. MNYANI: We would like to know from the hon. Minister whether they will start new breeding societies , new agricultural organisations , new co-operative societies . Are they not going to use the existing organisations ? DSTE 1900 BIRTHE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I am lost now. I do not know whether we are still discussing clause 3 or not.
MR. E.A. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman, we come here representing two sections of the population - those who have accepted rehabilitation measures and those who have not. I was confused by the question put by the hon. Mr. Mnyani. His question was whether those who have not accepted rehabilitation measures would be allowed to buy this type of livestock. I will not say in so many words what the reply was , but there was a murmur of "Never, never" . It must be clear to us that this has nothing to do with rehabilitation measures .
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Yes , we are discussing it. As individuals we also want these thoroughbred animals . Someone wanted a thoroughbred Friesland bul . and another, learning that the quality of the milk of the Jersey was valuable , wanted to a get a Jersey bull , but we found we could not get these from the depot here . It is on that point we would like further explanation from the hon. Minister, because even as an individual one might buy a thoroughbred bull and keep it tethered at his homestead. This is not quite clear to me and I do not know whether it is because I was not a very bright student myself, but we would like the hon. Minister to tell us whether he understands or does not understand the bill .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member confine his addres to this particular clause which aims at substituting the words "suitable livestock" for "improved sires ". MR. MAPASSA: I am speaking on the subject of suitable livestock. TO THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is just a change in the name - that is all. MR. MAPASSA: I want to say something on behalf of those who have not accepted rehabilitation, because they also would like to have this improved livestock. It may well be that someone living in a rehabilitated area may not be able to deal with this improved livestock as he chooses.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairmn, it intrigues me to find hon. members worrying themselves so much about the removal of two words and the introduction of two words to an existing section. The section remains as it was when it was passed by this House . Now, it is merely the substitution of the words "suitable Livestock" instead of " improved sires " in the section which exists , which merely means that where subsidization was made on the bulls, now females will also be subsidized. That
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , this question of rehabilitation does not seem to come into the clause. Let us get the Minister to reply to questions that have been put , otherwise we shall be here all afternoon. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I have already replied to the questions and therefore move that the section be adopted.
means now that we just change from subsidizing bulls to subsidizing cows , ewes , she-goats and so forth - that is all. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman, we do not know who is going to tell us which the Jersey is and which the Brown Swiss and so forth.
MR. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman , did the hon. Minister say that those who have not accepted rehabilitation....
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister has just referred to the fact that it is not particularly cattle , but livestock generally.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Ngqeleni asked a very moot question.
MR. MAJIJA: I amusing cattle as an example . At one time the agricultural officers found difficulty in telling exactly what type of bull it was at the Engcobo local show. Seeing they were not able to tell exactly what it was, they mixed it up with a Brown Swiss. We wrote to the breeder in the Berlin area near East London and he told us the parentage of this As a result of the artificial particular bull. this came from a particular process insemination breed in England of Jersey stock and the mother cow also came from Jersey stock.
CHIEF P. JOZANA: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister has replied to the question. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Minister has replied . (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Yes , the
Order , please .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : He did not say he was closing the debate , he said the Mr. Minister has replied. (Interjections)
385.
Chairman and hon. members , the hon. member for Ngqeleni put a very moot question, as I have said. He wanted to know how control would be obtained in order to keep this livestock pure . That was a very sensible question. Now, I am replying to that question which was omitted by the hon. the Minister for Agriculture when he stood up. The only way of control of stock is fencing. If you have bulls which you do not want to mix indiscriminately with cows you keep them inside a fence. (Interjections ) That is why the contention of the Government is that for a start these cattle be kept pure by being kept in camps . (Interjections ) I am not talking about rehabilitation, I am talking about fences and the bull being kept fenced in, whether in rehabilitated or unrehabilitated areas. If the unrehabilitated areas would undertake to keep these bulls in camps there would be nothing whatsoever to prevent them from having these bulls , if they control them in camps whether the area is fenced or not.
scrub animals in a sour veld may be found to be suitable for that particular type of veld. Just to give you an idea, Mr. Chairman , the Merino in an area which has plentiful rain such as our area is not a suitable animal. It is not as suited to the area as the ordinary scrub animals which we rear. Does this mean that in our area we will be encouraged to rear scrub animals , because they happen to be suitable for that area? Would the hon. Minister explain further because this places the agricultural officials at a risk because they may themselves approve of a suitable breed even though the people in that particular area do not like the breed they suggest. However, if it was stated that we want an improved breed anybody would appreciate that, or a recognized breed by the Government. Anyone knows what the term "improved breed" means. The Nguni breed is being improved somewhere in the mountains here.
CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, it appears that this matter is being discussed by people who cannot make a distinction between a milk breed and a track animal.
MR . MAPASSA: Mr. Chairman , I thank the hon. Minister for his reply. We who have no camps have a method of keeping these animals separate . We put a ring through their noses and keep them in our yards. For many years I have kept thoroughbred stock, although I have no farm, and even at agricultural shows they used to win prizes , whereas I never owned a farm of my own. It would be a good thing if people in unrehabilitated areas are allowed to keep this improved stock because that would be an encouragement to people to accept rehabilitation and, after all, we want milk and butter. It would be surprising if it were said that those who are not in rehabilitated areas should be exposed to the ravages of TB.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, will you confine your remarks to this amendment, please.
CHIEF JOZANA : Mr. Chairman, I am now referring to the term " suitable livestock" . A particular chief or resident will choose for himself what he would like to rear and stock That would help which will suit his area. everybody in the Transkei . It is possible that a breed suitable to Pondoland may not suit the Qamata area. It surprises me that the hon. member here suggests that the word " improved " should be exchanged for " suitable" . You will
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman , I would like clarification as to how the people would be able to buy these thoroughbred animals. Will they be kept in Umtata or will they be taken out to the reserves?
rear the animal that you want. MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : suitable ?
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I think we have dealt sufficiently now with clause 3 which is an amendment to section 10 of Act No. 20 of 1966. We are not discussing the Act itself, but only an amendment to that Act in which amendment two words are being substituted for another two words - that is all. The original Act remains the same .
And if it is un-
CHIEF JOZANA: No , we breed the type of animal that is suitable to that area. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, please.
CHIEF JOZANA: I do not see any reason why we should be exchanging the words. Mr. Chairman, I think this matter should be passed.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your explanation but there is this point specifically on the amendment. Formerly the words were " improved sires" and that is amended to be "suitable livestock" . In animal husbandry books we are used to the word "improved breeds" or " recognized breeds" but we are not used to the words " suitable breeds" .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ithink this matter has been discussed sufficiently. MR. H.H. ZIBI : The Minister has not replied. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Minister has moved the adoption of this section and he has been seconded. Does the House agree?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is not "suitable breeds " , it is " suitable livestock ".
MR. ZIBI : No , Mr. Chairman, there is one little fear and I wish the hon. Minister to put it right. Suppose a man has 50 head of cattle and the agricultural officer declares them al unsuitable . It means that man will have no beast.
CHIEF NDAMASE : However, the use of this word " suitable" just does not fit in with our knowledge. It would be clearer if it were said "improved livestock" . The term " suitable " just does not tell us exactly what is meant. Ordinary 386.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Honestly, I think some of the hon. members are fooling now. This does not refer to the flock that you have in your kraals . It refers to the livestock which is bought by the Government to assist the farmers. Now, this " suitable " does not mean the agricultural officers are going to come to your kraal and find out what kind of stock you have. (Interjections) It merely enables the Government to purchase suitable livestock to assist the farmers and, as the hon. Chief Jozana said it is the farmer who will go to the Government and choose the sires or the cows which are suitable for his area. (Interjections)
sion, which, as you will remember, not only did I try to explain as clearly as possible , but also the hon. members even in the Opposition claimed that this was one of their pet clauses . As I mentioned , it does not necessarily encourage people to do this but only for administrative reasons we found we had to allow it. In subsection (1) (b) the insertion of the words " in which such land is situated" serves only to improve the definition and to prevent any misinterpretation because the term "area " is too general and it is therefore necessary to pir it down, to the exact area where the land is situated. Another little change is the word "thereon" for " therein" , to improve the language . Also the words " specified in such notice " are deleted because they are really superfluous . Sub- section (1 ) (c ) - this section is now brought in line with new sections 29 ( a) and (b) , in reference to fire belts. The next section is now brought in line with sections 29 (a ) and (b) which we will deal with soon and the amendment does not change the contents in general in any way . The next part (3 ) ( a) and (b) , this new section is added to make further provision for the control of veld fires and the elimination of a fire hazard. It may, for example , be stipulated in a soil conservation scheme that veld should be burned. This may, however cause hazard especially near a plantation where the material may be very dry and highly inflammable. By burning adjoining veld the fire could then readily spread to the plantation. With this brief explanation, Mr. Chairman, I move that clause 4 be adopted .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I stand up to request the hon. gentlemen to compose themselves . This constant interruption is not up to the dignity of the House. If one member is explaining a point let him not be interrupted and then we can get somewhere. I do not like striking the hammer so constantly. I would not like to do it for children and still less for hon. members.
I was THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : still saying, hon. members , that the Government might purchase various types of sheep. Now, if you say " improved sheep " it means even if your own area is not suited to the particular type of sheep which the Government recommends , you don't have to buy that particular type of sheep. Your area might be suited to Persian sheep and you might require Persian sheep. This enables you to get them. Your area may be suited to Merino sheep and if you need Merino sheep you will be able to get them. It rather makes it convenient for the farmer, instead of making it inconvenient. The same with the cattle - your area may be suited to Nguni cattle . You may require Nguni cattle and you will be supplied with those . You may require Afrikander cattle , for instance , and this will enable you to get them .
MR. H.H. ZIBI : From the explanation of the hon. Minister I would understand him to say that the removal refers to areas within the Transkei , but the section as it is would readily suggest that it is removal of manure from the Transkei to some other area outside the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: mean the section in the principal Act ?
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, referring to the remarks of the hon. the Minister of Education, may I ask whether the Government will have all these breeds or will it be the individual who will go to the Government to say he wants such-and-such a breed ? Alternatively, will the individual buy a certain breed and show it to the Government to see whether it is suitable or not?
Do you
MR. ZIBI : Now, what is the reaction of the Government if a man in Umzimkulu wants to take his manure just across the border to Ixopo to sell it? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : is outside the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Surely the section is quite clear. " The Minister may, out of moneys appropriated for the purpose by the Legislative Assembly and on such basis and subject to such conditions as he may determine or prescribe in consultation with the Minister of Finance , pay subsidies or make grants to any owner of livestock for the purpose of acquiring suitable livestock for breeding purposes . "
MR. ZIBI: department?
No , that
What is the attitude of the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, when this Act was discussed there was a heated discussion between the Government side and the Opposition, if I remember well , on the question of removal of manure from one administrative area to another as was contained in the original Act. I remember the Opposition saying that they objected to that. It would be all right if the section was against removal of manure from the Transkei to outside the TransI am sure , other than what you hon. kei. members have been saying the Government has taken from you , you should be pleased that this time this has been taken from you and I admit
Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, clause 4 (a ) merely refers to the question of the removal of manure from one administrative area to another without permis-
387 .
it, because this new section prohibits the removal of manure from the Transkei to outside the Transkei but it can be moved from one administrative area to another. This is amending that now.
there will be less chance of one side blaming the other for any mishap and there will be no claims either way. (5) (b) is quite clear , so I move the adoption. Clause 5 put and agreed to.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to explain to me what kind of crops are prohibited from being planted in one arable allotment. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : clause ?
Clauses 6 and 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8
Is this in this
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if you read section 8 you will find we have already agreed to it under the Forest Bill and you cannot contradict yourselves.
MR. MNYANI: Yes , it is (1) (b) . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I thought the hon. members had read the amendments which are included and I repeated them . The only amendments I mentioned in (1) (b) are these : The insertion of the words " in which such land is situated" . Another one was the change from "thereon" to "therein" and the third was the removal of the words "specified in such notice ". That is the amendment we are dealing with. We don't amend the question of crops that was agreed on and the hon. member should have known that because he should have studied this Act. It is in the library waiting for him.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: It is a question of presumption again against an accused. It has not been passed. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : It was passed in the Forest Bill. Clause put and agreed to. Clause 9 put and agreed to. The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed
Clause 4 put and agreed to . On Clause 5
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I wish to report to the House that the bill to amend the Transkeian Agricultural Development Act, 1966 , has been accepted without amendment. What date for the third reading?
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, as the heading states we have these new sections 29 (a) and 29 (b) added .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, tomorrow or So soon thereafter .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Minister , before you move , do I understand that this additional section is in line with what is contained in your Forest Bill , which this House accepted?
DISCONTINUANCE
OF
SALE OF JABULANI
The debate was resumed .
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes. No provision is made for fire belts in act No. 10 of 1966. The owner or occupier of private land, Government officer, including the chief or headman, is now empowered to clear a fire belt on а common boundary of a property.
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to propose the following amendment : - That all the words after the word " should" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor :-
Sub-section (2) provides for a reasonable period of notice for the adjoining owner to make the necessary preparations ; and in (3) , this section determines that the adjoining party is obliged to assist in clearing a fire belt, but he is given the opportunity to apply for extension of time limit. Sub-section (4) - all the different aspects , including the share of the costs to be borne by the two parties concerned will be a matter of mutual agreement. Failing such agreement the magistrate will, on application by either party, arbitrate subject to section 48 (4 ) of the Constitution Act, which in turn determines that the Republic can establish or disestablish a magistrate's or Bantu Affairs Commissioner's court for the hearing of a case which involves a non-Transkeian citizen. The section therefore provides specifically for problems which may arise between parties in the Transkei and the Republic on the border. In (5) (a) both parties are required to take the full share of their responsibilities for the whole operation so that
"discuss the question of exercising better control over the sale and consumption of Jabulani as well as the venues where such beer halls are erected with the Xhosa Development Corporation. " Mr. Chairman, in moving this amendment as far as Jabulani is concerned I have a few points which I want to stress . I have noticed that the Opposition does not understand anything about Jabulani and I want to make this question clear to them. My first point is that they know "mqomboti ", they know " skokiaan " and other concoctions which are sold in municipal locations. We have not heard the hon. members of the Opposition say anything about those concoctions , yet they are drunk by the people. I can see no difficulty in regard to Jabulani and before I give certain explanations I wish first of all to find out what is wrong with Jabulani .
388.
I think there is something wrong with the people and not with Jabulani. It is the person who leaves his own home for a place where Jabulani is sold and turns himself into a cockroach who is to blame. If you place milk in a tin can a cockroach will climb up the can and fall into the milk and start drinking until it dies in that conMust we then say there is something tainer. wrong with the milk, or that this cockroach drank too much of the milk until it died as a result? People certainly have more intelligence than cockroaches and when they go to drink Jabulani they should have a limit. Let me compare Jabulani with any beer made by the Bantu and try to discover which is the better beer. I am sure all the members in this Assembly are educated people who know all about the brewThey know how Kaffir ing of Kaffir beer. A woman boils the porridge beer is made. and after cooling it throws it on the floor of the hut. The porridge is left there overnight and whilst it is on the floor cockroaches climb down the wall and die in that mixture . Flies will also be found dead in it and bugs also, and in the morning someone will pick out the I will go dead cockroaches, flies and bugs . further and explain how this is strained. The process offostraining this Kaffir beer is as follows : It is put into a grass strainer and strained, and the fire has been made from dry cowdung and the woman making this liquor is perspiring as the hut is very warm. (Laughter) There is a lot of smoke in the hut and the smoke goes into the nose of the womanwho is preparing Then she has to blow her nose the liquor. with her own hand and use the same hand in straining the Kaffir beer. ( Laughter) Remember, hon. members , in this process there are the dead flies , cockroaches and bugs; there is also some fresh manure and probably there is also a baby This in the hut who has relieved himself. only not does beer Kaffir method of preparing refer to the Hala clan but it applies similarly to all the Xhosas. If I had enough time I would go further to explain what causes this liquor to At length this liquor is put into be so dirty. tin cans and this is the mode of drinking out of the can: It is a communal process and some of the men have long beards and moustaches and perhaps they have not cleaned their noses very well. (Laughter)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order please .
947 hoer 26
MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: I was attempting to illustrate how this Kaffir beer is manufactured up to the time it is consumed. Now I will turn to Jabulani . I went to Butterworth to see how Jabulani is manufactured. As far as cleanliness is concerned , I am satisfied beyond all doubt that Jabulani is clean. From the very beginning the process of manufacturing Jabulani is not done by man. One thing I tried to find out was what causes intoxication in Jabulani . Iwas taken to o a laboratory which they have and was told the ingredients of Jabulani . I was shown that the percentage alcohol in Jabulani and in beer is almost the same between .2% and .3%. I was not cheated because I saw these figures personally in the laboratory. I had to tell my own people after these observations that there is nothing wrong with Jabulani but that it is
the consumer and his greediness which is at fault. If a person bought a bottle of brandy and drank it he would become excessively drunk, and his behaviour would be very bad and would exceed the behaviour of a man who has drunk a jug of Jabulani. If you drink a large jarful of Jabulani it will have no effect on you and you will not become intoxicated. What is wrong with the hon. members of the Opposition? They think they will frighten the members of the Government side by introducing this subject. It is quite true to say that all the members on the Opposition side are all drunkards (Laughter) except the Paramount Chiefs. I will not say anything about the Paramount Chiefs , but the others drink "grangqa". If they agree to my amendment for the control of the sale of Jabulani, during this month at Rode there is going to be a circumcision and after that when these boys have been initiated we will hold a big " umgidi ". There will be Kaffir beer galore at that "umgidi ". What makes these people so intoxicated when they partake of Jabulani is because they only purchase Jabulani at a cost of 5 cents a jar , whereas brandy is far more expensive . The reason why I introduced the subject of the "umgidi " is because the beer there has the same intoxicating effect as Jabulani. With both these drinks people drink quite a lot because of the cheapness of the liquor and they become very drunk. If the price of a bottle of Jabulani were increased to R2-50, the same price as European liquor , that would have a restrictive effect on the people and would make them less intoxicated. The reason why they become drunk is because the consumer is very greedy. It is not because of Jabulani itself. If you visit Pretoria and Johannesburg and are invited by your White friends to dinner or lunch , at table you are given Jabulani. (Interjections) I actually partook. There is also a supply of European liquor and everyone drinks whichever they prefer but we drink like gentlemen. Lastly, one of the hon. members of the Opposition asked a question about men and boys drinking together at " emgidini " . Men and boys do not drink together at these parties , but don't give your children money to go and buy Jabulani. The hon. member also asked if the children had been detribalized. I told him they must train their children in the proper way. He says he did not say they were detribalized but that they are working. I wish to remind him that according to Bantu custom when a youth has been paid he takes all that money to the parents . Once again I say there is nothing wrong with Jabulani. The fault is with the consumer . CHIEF W. LUDIDI : I second the amendment.
CHIEF H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in discussing this motion and the concoction which the hon. member says is not to blame, I regret very much that the hon. Mr. ka - Tshunungwa who at one time asserted that Jabulani is not a good drink should now say it is not to blame for the effects it has . (Interjections) He told us once that the electorate in his area wanted him to make every effort to stop the sale of Jabulani and he said he would do so, but now he stands here to say that JabuHe said this at a lani is not to be blamed . 389.
meeting at Ndabakazi which he addressed . He was quite serious at the time and thereafter I met him after the meeting at Butterworth. MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA : On a point of correction, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member on that side is not speaking the truth in this respect. He is now talking to this House upon hearsay evidence. If I were to guide him I actually said to him that Jabulani has given employment to about two hundred people and if we are keen for industry in the Transkei are we now going to do away with two hundred people employed in that Jabulani factory?
CHIEF ZULU: Mr. Chairman, I note that the hon. member says I merely heard what I am saying, but I am telling the truth and he was speaking the truth. It is only now that he is not speaking the truth. THE CHAIRMAN : deal with the motion.
Will the hon. member
MR. E.G. SIHELE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, if anybody says anything he must be able to prove what he says . The hon. member says Jabulani has poison in it to the extent that it will kill people. Jabulani is sold by the Government and he asserts that it has poison in it. We would like him to buy Jabulani and prove that it has poison in it. CHIEF ZULU: Mr. Chairman, this is the first time that I learn Jabulani is munufactured by the Government. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please . CHIEF ZULU: It is the first time I have heard that the Government owns this brewery. There is no need for us to have Jabulani. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: What is going to happen to the people employed in that factory? You talk of industries are you going to give those people other work?
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF ZULU: Mr. Chairman, seeing that we now have free access to Jabulani this free sale has caused the death of many people . Jabulani has poison in it and what the hon. member says is not true . Hon. member , you say THE CHAIRMAN : poison is put into Jabulani . Can you prove that? CHIEF ZULU: Anything that makes the people drunk has poison in it. PARAMOUNT CHIEF S. DALINDYEBO : On a point of explanation, Mr. Chairman, in connection with what the hon. member has said, if you put Jabulani into a billycan and leave it standing, that billycan will rust and go into holes . If you consider the effect that the Jabulani can cause holes in a billycan, how much more inthe human stomach!
CHIEF ZULU: I have already said we should stop the sale of Jabulani. You will be aware that the bad behaviour and indiscipline of the people in the Transkei is due to this Jabulani . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, it would appear that the members are so disinterested in this discussion that we shall soon find an empty house, Judging from the rate at which the hon. members I now move the are leaving this Chamber. adjournment of the House until tomorrow. Perhaps they will be interested in it tomorrow morning. I suppose the mere mention of Jabulani has dried up the throats of some ofthe members. (Laughter)
The debate was adjourned. died sud The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 10th June , 1969.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, if we allow this to go on we will not know where we are . Everyone Even in has his own ideas on 、 the subject. regard to brandy, if you put liver into it the liver will become " ripe " , so you can imagine what it does to the human stomach. So we must just discuss the motion and nothing else . CHIEF ZULU: Mr. Chairman, to prove that Jabulani has poison in it, Jabulani is sold at the beer halls and after five days any Jabulani that is not sold must be thrown away. If anybody drinks Jabulani that has been standing for (Laughter) five days he dies immediately. It is for that reason that it is thrown away after five days , because anyone who drinks it after that period will die . If you buy 5 cents worth of Jabulani and throw it on the green grass that grass will immediately turn yellow. There are some people who think the Jabulani manufactured in Butterworth is like the Jabulani in Johannesburg. I do not know who manufactures this Jabulani in Butterworth or Johannesburg , but whoever it is he delivers his product all over the Transkei with the express purpose of killing the people.
TUESDAY , 10th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have to announce that the refrigeration and deep-freezing to which we were subjected last week has claimed the hon. the Chief Minister as one of its victims . He is down with ' flu and will not be able to be in the House today. I hope there won't be any more because since I have been in here this morning I have heard a few bugles being sounded. (Laughter) QUESTIONS
QUESTION NO. 37. Mr. W.C. Singata asked the Minister of Roads and Works : 390.
(i) How many primary schools have been built since the inception of this Assembly in these four districts : Tsolo , Libode , Qumbu and Ngqeleni ?
QUESTION NO. 39. Mr. H. Mafukula asked the Agriculture and Forestry:-
Minister of
Whether the Department is of the opinion that if in soil reclamation the fencing of arable allotments alone would be more expensive than fencing stock grazing camps ?
(ii) If any, how were they financed? (iii ) Is the Government aware , also , of many students ' applications which were turned down because of few Secondary and Training Schools built?
REPLY : Yes, if the question refers to each individual If by arable allotments is arable allotment. meant blocks of arable land including many allotments the answer is , no.
(iv) What does the Transkeian Government intend doing to ease this situation? REPLY:
QUESTION NO. 40. Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
(i) The following primary schools have been or are being built in the financial years indicated :
THI2
1 1
(a ) Does he contemplate sending an official of his Department to inquire into the failure of Government tractors to plough completely the farmers' allotments ?
3
3
(b) Where the allotments have not been wholly ploughed, will the farmers be allowed to pay less?
67/68 Tsolo Libode Qumbu Ngqeleni
1
69/70
REPLY :
(ii) → They were financed by grants from this department in accordance with the primary school building scheme .
(a) No, because there is no question that Government tractors did not plough completely the farmers ' allotments .
(iii) The Government is fully aware of the situation, and
(b) Falls away . (iv) In support of this I would reiterate what I said in my policy speech , namely that by far the greatest part, in fact 70% of the moneys voted for building work is devoted to post primary and higher education.
The honourable member may however refer to allotments ploughed by contractors in which case it must be explained that it is a practical impossibility to determine the areas ploughed or not ploughed now, more than 6 months afterwards . Also considering that thousands of allotments were ploughed makes it impractical. Farmers will have to pay what they contracted for.
QUESTION NO. 38. Mr. H. Mafukula asked the Minister of Roads and Works :Whether or not roads in rehabilitated areas are jackal-proof fenced? If not, do small livestock not trespass on the non-jackal-proof fenced roads? If they do, are owners prosecuted for the trespassing, as the grazing commonages are supposed to be fenced and herd boys are to attend school?
The Department would be prepared to investigate a small number and has in fact done so. The complaints were found to be groundless . Mr. Chairman, arising MR. G.G. KUTU: from the reply by the hon. Minister , before the six months was over I sent him a letter in which I had a list of names of people whose lands had not been completely ploughed. Now that he refers to six months I would like to state it was before the expiry of the six months when I wrote this letter. Further , when Parliament was in session I brought in a list of the names of people whose lands had not been completely ploughed as some of these had only a portion of their lands ploughed. How does the hon. Minister now come to state that this should have been raised within a period of six months when I pointed it out before the six months was up? I appeal to him now, because I know of people in my area who are holding back the fee for this ploughing and they would like to know whether their lands will be ploughed for them .
REPLY : As far as is known, no roads in the Transkei are jackal-proof fenced . The older fencing along roads is not necessarily small stock proof but all the newer fencing is . It is understood that in some areas the owners of stock found trespassing on fenced off roads are being prosecuted . These prosecutions are instigated by the South African Police as a result of representations made by the South African Road Safety Council which is concerned about the number of accidents , some of them fatal, caused by trespassing stock. In the experience of the road authorities and the South African and the Traffic Police stock found on roads has , as often as not, got there as the result of gates being left open.
391 .
THE CHAIRMAN : Has the hon. Minister anything to reply to that? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman.
Will the honourable Minister make a statement in regard to his tour of the Republic in company of the honourable the Chief Minister , allegedly to seek employment for the citizens of the Transkei ?
No,
MR. KUTU : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I appeal to the hon. Minister to give some reply seeing that I sent him a list of names and I would like him to reply officially to that.
REPLY :
During the recent visit of the honourable the Chief Minister and myself to the Transvaal and the Orange Free State , we had fruitful discussions about labour matters with various Industrialists and other large employers.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , I cannot force the hon. Minister to reply when he is not ready to reply. MR . KUTU : Mr. Chairman.... THE CHAIRMAN : hon. member.
QUESTION NO. 43. Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Agriculture and Forestry:-
I ask you to sit down,
of
(a) Is the Minister aware of the fact that African farmers who live in unrehabilitated areas pay more than their counterparts in rehabilitated areas when they buy bulls and rams of a pedigree?
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture I think did not say that he is not ready with a reply, but has stated that he shall not reply. The money held back by these farmers is due to the Government, or a portion of it is , and some finality must be reached by way of a statement indicating the extent of the liability of these persons , otherwise they will retain the money and payment will not be made to the Government in respect of the ploughing. THE CHAIRMAN : question.
Minister
(b) If it is so , what steps are being taken by your Department to remedy this irregularity of making the Transkei taxpayers suffer? (c) By applying such a measure can we say that this Department is sincere in encouraging stock improvement in the Transkei?
We pass on to the next
REPLY : (a) Yes . (b) None because there is no irregularity. (c) Yes. The department is not prepared to subsidize highly bred animals in areas where the grazing conditions are such that these animals will either not survive or produce much below their potential . This would mean wasting public funds. Subsidization can only be undertaken under conditions that will assure thatthe funds have been spent profitably.
QUESTION NO. 41 . Mr. L.Z. Majija asked the Minister of Roads and Works :(a) Is the Minister aware of the fact that African labourers working on roads are exposed to the inclemencies of the weather on cold and rainy days? (b) In view of the meagre wages earned by the labourers in (a) does this department ever consider giving free medical treatment and hospitalisation to workers attacked by illness , etc. while on duty?
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply by the hon. Minister and on behalf of the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija , is the hon. Minister aware that rehabilitated areas such as Qamata are very arid, but when you get to an area like Engcobo you find that the grazing area is much better although the district is not rehabilitated ? Why is this so ?
(c) Does this department envisage establishing hygienic sleeping accommodation for road workers ? REPLY : (a) Indeed yes , but no employee is required to work in rain and snow.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : answer has already been given.
(b) I am unable to reply to this question, as conditions of employment are not
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the hon. Minister's reply, yesterday when we were discussing the Agricultural Amendment Bill and we spoke about suitable livestock , the hon. Minister indicated to this House that suitable stock would be made available to everybody, irrespective of fenced or unfenced areas . In view of that statement made here yesterday how do we relate it to his reply of " Yes" to Question 43 (a), and how is his statement given to this House yesterday related to his reply to Question 43 (c) indicating preferential treatment?
determined by my department but by the Government Service Commission. (c) Yes, where practicable , labourers have been or are being supplied with such accommodation. QUESTION NO. 42. Mr. R.S. Madikizela asked the Minister of the Interior :-
392.
The
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The last sentence there says " Subsidization can only be undertaken under conditions that will assure that the funds have been spent profitably. " That relates to the question as a whole .
QUESTION NO. 44. Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
the Economic development of Bantu Homelands Act, 1968 (Act No. 46 of 1968 ) the Xhosa Development Corporation is required to submit its annual report to its Trustee only , i.e. the South African Bantu Trust. The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development is , in his turn, required to lay copies of the report onthe Table of the Senate and of the Republican House of Assembly.
Why are there no road signs to indicate that the old Indwe River bridge from Cofimvaba district to Lady Frere district is no longer in use, or both sides of this bridge closed by fence to show that roads are no longer in use on account of the Lubisi Dam project as the bridge is covered by the water of the dam ?
The honourable member is also referred to my reply to Question No. 18 from which it is abundantly clear that the Transkei Government does not in any way finance the activities of the Xhosa Development Corporation and it can therefore hardly be expected of that Corporation to account to this Assembly for its operations.
REPLY :
However , my Department will negotiate with the authorities concerned with a view to tabling this document in future for the convenience of members.
The road in question is not a Government road and is , therefore , not under the supervision of my department. Had the Tribal Authority notified the department, through the Regional Authority, of the position, the department would have taken appropriation action by now.
QUESTION NO. 45. Mr. B.S. Mnyani asked the Minister of the Interior:Why does the Transkei Government and/or Dalindyebo Regional Authority refuse to issue a title deed to Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo at the Great Place , Sitebe in the district of Umtata? REPLY: The Great Place at Sitebe belongs to the Tembu people as such and not to Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo in his private capacity.
MR. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply by the hon. Minister , is the XDC working for the Republican Government in its activities in the Transkei or are they working in the interests of the Transkei people ? Admittedly the funds come from the Republican Government but they are given on the understanding that they are going to help the Transkei people . It is for that reason we are asking as we do. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, on behalf of the hon. the Minister of Finance and in reply to that mischievous question I would like to say - yes , the XDC is there for the promotion of the industrial development of the Transkei citizens and that is why you have the penultimate paragraph to the reply given to this question . MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: from the hon. Minister's would like him to define "mischievous question" .
MR. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon. Minister why he replies as he has done because the Tembus in that area gave this ground to Paramount Chief Sabata as a gift from them because he has represented their views as they have wished him to do . They did not say at any time they were putting up a Great Place for their paramount chief and the Chief Minister has the correspondence . There have been several delegations on this matter .
Mr. Chairman , arising reply to the question I and explain the words (Laughter)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I happen not to be a walking dictionary.
QUESTION NO. 47. Mr. B.S. Mnyani asked the Agriculture and Forestry:-
Minister of
What steps are to be taken to correct the wrong accounts sent to some people whose lands not completely ploughed during the ploughing aid scheme last season, but have been charged the full amount?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, the question was duly put by the hon. member for Dalindyebo and an adequate response and acceptable answer was given bythe Minister of the Interior. The matter ends there .
REPLY :
QUESTION NO. 46. Mr. B.S. Mnyani Finance: -
asked the
Minister of
Will the Minister make a statement as to why he does not table the Xhosa Development Corporation report in this House since we are the most concerned in its activities .
Please refer to the reply to question 40 which deals with the same matter. QUESTION NO. 48. Mr. B.S. Mnyani Finance :-
REPLY : In terms of section 22 of the Promotion of
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asked the
Minister of
(a) Is there any pension paid to paramount chiefs , chiefs and headmen's widows? If so, how is this determined ?
(b) Is there any grant paid to heirs of paramount chiefs , chiefs and headmen who are still minor? If so, on what percentage basis is this paid and how is this calculated?
REPLY : (a) No. (b) It is expected that tribal authorities should, where necessary, shoulder the responsibility of maintaining and educating minor heirs to chieftainships (who are first in line of succession). Where necessary, each case being treated on its merits , the Government will assist the tribal authority with a subsidy of not more than R200.00 per annum per chieftainship. MR . MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply to section (a) of the question, we are of the opinion that paramount chiefs are not employed and therefore are not paid a salary. What they are getting is a return for the land which belonged to them which they gave to the Government.
(ii) Why have these chiefs ' salaries not been increased? REPLY : (a) Presuming that the question refers tothe last financial year the answer is · none. (b) Falls away . (c) ( i) Falls away. (ii) Falls away. MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister, could he give me clarification? If I am referring to this year, how does it affect the previous years ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, in order to obtain an appropriate reply to that question arising from the reply, the hon. member is advised to put his question in writing. TRANSKEI TAXATION BILL : THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on behalf of the hon. the Minister of Finance I move that the Transkei Taxation Bill, 1969, be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: ask a question, please .
Will you
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.
MR. MNYANI: Should the paramount chief die the young child, even though he may still be a crawling baby, is a paramount chief and ought to have the rights and privileges of his father . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Will you put your question in writing. I am not the Chief Minister.
TRANSKEI AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman, I move the third reading of the Transkei Agricultural Development Amendment Bill, 1969.
QUESTION NO. 49. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education :-
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second.
Agreed to. Is the Department of Education considering increasing teacher's salaries by 10 per cent to bring them in line with those of the Republic who received such increments last April , 1969 ?
The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI TOWNSHIPS AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING
REPLY : My Department has contacted the Department of Bantu Education in Pretoria in order to obtain further and more specific details regarding the increments granted to Bantu teachers in the Republic. The particulars are not yet available but will , on receipt, receive due consideration by the Cabinet in the light of the prevailing financial position in the Transkei. QUESTION NO. 50. Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of Finance :(a ) What chiefs have had their stipends in creased? (b) How have they been increased? (c) (1) What chiefs have not had their stipends increased?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , in the absence of the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance it has fallen upon my shoulders to deliver the second reading of the Transkei Townships Amendment Bill , 1969. As has been the practice of the hon. the Chief Minister with all his bills this session, this bill was distributed with an explanatory memorandum. The adoption of this practice has , in the case of non-contentious bills of this nature, left very little for me to say in moving the second reading of this bill. In the instant case consequential amendments are sought to be made to Proclamation No. R.293 of 1962 as a result of the constitutional changes which have taken place in the Transkei. For example , the proclamation of course refers to the South African Bantu Trust, the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner and the Minister and Department of Bantu Administration and Development, instances which have now all fallen away in the Transkei 394.
in respect of the administration of townships in Bantu areas. To retain them in the proclamation in the present circumstances makes it difficult to understand. In a few cases , however , new principles are to be introduced and in case hon. members missed them I will now list them . The present regulation 5 of Chapter I only permits members of the tribe in whose area a township is situated to become occupiers in such townships , except with special approval . Clause 2 , however , permits occupation by all citizens ofthe Transkei . Regulation 20 of Chapter II requires building plans to be drawn to scale. As this can be a hardship , clause 12 (a) makes provision for a superintendent to waive this requirement. No period of office is at present laid down for the members of township councils . Clause 23 (a) seeks to do this and I do not think that hon. members will find fault with this. Regulation 2 of Chapter VIII at present makes provision for a chief or headman in whose area a township is situated to be permitted to appoint a deputy or sub-headman, as the case may be , in the township . Clause 24, in keeping with the changes in the Transkei , seeks to amend this to enable a chief or headman to appoint a representative on a township council. Lastly, in Schedule M on page 22 , the safeguard which may be seen in paragraphs 7 (a) and (b) of Schedule F on page 20 is removed because it is felt that businesses must not be allowed to act irresponsibly in the accumulation of debt in the knowledge that their land will be protected from execution. As the proclamation is not readily available it is the intention to introduce a completely new Act in this connection at a future session of this Assembly. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move the second reading of the bill.
be a ghost township. In this connection I think where areas are planned under the agricultural development scheme , future townships should be considered in relation to the concentration of inhabitants in those areas . I think we have all accepted the fact that the Transkei is poor in mineral resources so that agricultural potential should be a very major factor in determining where a township is going to be . I am thinking of the contemplated township near the town of Matatiele and have been wondering whether or not there has been wisdom in siting that township where it is now. Coming to the provisions of this amendment Act there is very little to quarrel with on the matter of principle . I am perturbed, however, over the fact that the magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner who is indeed the administrative head in his district is finding that some of the powers which he originally exercised are now being taken away from him, and we find a situation developing where the magistrate or Bantu Affairs Commissioner has to say : I have nothing to do with this development that is taking place in my district - refer to the department. This diminution of authority and scope of activity has the tendency of undermining that hallowed service which Bantu Affairs Commissioners used to render to the citizens in their districts in all the diversity of governmental activity in that area. Now, Sir, I notice that the protection extended to land occupied by, shall I say, a qualified owner of property in these townships is being taken away. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Businesses . MR. GUZANA: Yes, businesses . In other words , execution can be levied against a business site. I see now that these men can mortgage their properties and this is a healthy provision because it will enable the businessman to give financial life to his business and ensure growth and expansion. My complaint, however , is that only a Bantu person can have a mortgage bond registered over these sites. I infer that from the provision to the effect that only a Bantu person can buy where this property is sold in execution. In other words , a person other than a Bantu cannot have a mortgage bond passed over this business site . If a person other than a Bantu will have to get the approval of the Secretary in order to acquire that business site, can there not be provision for a person other than a Bantu obtaining the approval of the Secretary to have a mortgage bond passed over that business site ? I feel this is very important if we seek to stimulate trading amongst the There are very few Africans themselves.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Isecond , Mr. Chairman. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, if my information is correct the idea of establishing townships in the Transkei is something by way of an inheritance which has fallen upon the shoulders of this Government, for I do not remember at any time during the lifetime of this parliament this House deciding on the principle of establishing townships in the Transkei. My comment on the establishment of townships is this - that they should not be established arbitrarily. In my view there are usually certain location factors which determine the growth of a township - that is , a harbour may well influence a government to establish a town next to the sea; thus the presence of minerals determines the growth of a town in a particular spot; the availability of raw materials. may determine the location of a factory. In the establishment of these townships , therefore , I am hoping that some of these factors and other relevant factors will be borne in mind and that it should not just be a realization of an ideology. The question of sea communication and close proximity to national railway and road lines are factors which have to be borne in mind. Future industrial development which is contemplated should also determine where these towns are going to be established, otherwise we may find that we launch a township and it turns out to
Africans who have capital in reserve for loan purposes and there are hardly any African financial institutions which are in a position to loan money to businessmen who seek to develop their trade . For a very long time to come the capital is still in the hands of the White man and this Government, if it seeks to give impetus to trading among the Africans , should make it possible for the African to borrow money from White capitalists . This will certainly not militate against the Government's obsession for the land in the Transkei to be owned by the Africans 395.
so that a non - African calling up a bond may have the property sold in execution to another African who will raise a bond with the original We accept the fact non- African bond-holder. that the post of the Chief Bantu Affairs Commission has been abolished and we only hope that these many-sided powers which he exercised are going to fall on the shoulders of responsible Ministers of State in this Government . Without scratching the Government too hard , I think that is as far as I will go at the present moment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to speak briefly on the bill before the House - a bill on the establishment of Bantu townships in the reserves . This is a new move among us and it is a matter which we should study very carefully in all its implications . There is much that we ought to study and learn about these townships . Among the important things is this - what are the reasons advanced for picking on any particular area for the establishment of a township? There ought to be a very thorough study of one of these factors in particular : The availability of land so that when the people come to live in this town it will be possible for them to find employment. Perhaps we might say it will be near the forests and plantations , but that alone will not be sufficient to provide employment for all the people who may live in a township like that. We ought therefore to find other channels of employment . Water is also among the important factors to be considered when bringing We have also a prospective people together. tea factory in the Lusikisiki area. Should we have very fruitful prospects there it may well be that an area close by will be found suitable for a township . Likewise where we have the phormium tenax processing plant an area nearby will be quite suitable for a township . These are very important factors and as we are embarking on a new venture we do not want to discover later that we have made a blunder. On the Tsitsa River there is a good waterfall which may be harnessed for electricity and we may undertake a number of projects which require the use of water there . Proximity to the railways is another important factor to be considered. The hon. Minister said that a town manager would administer the affairs and progress of the town. I do not quite understand what he meant by this. I thought he said that the planning of dwelling houses would be left in abeyance for a while . If that is the case I do not feel it is a good thing to do, because if we are going to establish a township it must be neat and healthy and clean. If we leave this matter of plans for dwelling houses it may mean the people will put up poor cottages which will not be very healthy , whereas the idea is to move forward. We must not embark upon things which will retard the progress of the people. In consideration of the low economic standard of the people , perhaps it would be advisable to try to think of houses that can easily be built by such people . He also mentioned a certain group of people who will be the people residing in a township . Does that mean that the township will be for a certain tribe which will be under a certain chief?
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No. I have heard the reply that MR. JAFTA : that would not be the case , but I hope in his reply the hon. Minister will make the point very clear. It is also stated that other citizens will be allowed to enter this township . I hope there will be clarification on that point , too. Other points have been mentioned by the previous speaker and I shall not repeat them . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the most important aspect of this debate so far is the constructive approach of the hon. members of the Opposition who have spoken so far. It brings it quite clearly that we are all concerned as to the advisability of building up townships in the Transkei. We would like to make it clear for the comfort of all members on both sides of the House that all care has been and is still being taken to see to it that these townships are being established on modern lines , and all the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition were , in fact, as far as possible taken into consideration. In the circumstances , however, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition will agree that some of these things will continue to be watched and some of them , in fact, will require adjustment as we go on. There is a point, however , which I would like to stress in reference to the position of the Bantu Affairs Commissioners . We would like to make it clear that as apparently is his wish, the Bantu Affairs Commissioner will still remain a very senior official in the administration of the township. In addition to that the Secretary may still delegate some powers to the Bantu Affairs Commissioner , but the Leader of the Opposition will also agree that certain conditions will, in the circumstances , be highly charged with a political fever. It would therefore save his skin if more decisions were taken by the Secretary . MR . GUZANA : May I know what decision would be of a political nature in relation to the development or siting of a township? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: It was just a by the way comment because some of these things will need a lot of consideration at this stage. You, Sir , also referred to some inheritance we have from the Republic as to the establishment of these townships . Let us make it clear , however, that in the case of Ramohlakoana where the circumstances require the establishment of a township near Matatiele , it is as a result of the need for an administrative headquarters of the district. We wish also to assure you that before a decision was taken to have this township in that area all necessary factors were taken into consideration. There was the question of the nature of the soil , the availability of water , even water power for that matter, communications and, of course , the possibility of the inhabitants having some form of living. May I also touch on the question of Mortgage bonds. Just in passing let me say that there is sufficient provision at present to borrow money on bond from the XDC . MR. GUZANA : No , it has an exclusive mono-
396.
CHIEF NDAMASE : I was of opinion that the idea was to establish a town where the African people would carry out their commercial and business enterprises apart altogether from the areas occupied by the White people .
poly in that direction and we would like people to be free to choose. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Yes , we know that, but that is the arrangement at present. Let me put it this way: These
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: This is The bill will be just an amending measure . passed to consolidate this .
matters are being studied day in, day out. Let us also assure you that the Government is not prepared at all to be very rigid as far as some of these things are concerned and that is why we say we are studying the position as circumstances indicate and we are prepared to adjust here and there. For instance , to go further, the question of capital from White sources (that is, building societies ) will be finalized before the application of this proclamation. We can assure you of that. That is why I say in fairness to everybody some of the fears of the people may be found not justifiable . We are prepared to learn as circumstances indicate , but let me also assure the hon. member for Qumbu that the townships will be open to any citizen of the Transkei , irrespective of tribal affiliation. You are the citizen of the Transkei and that is the most basic thing I would like to say before I sit down that the citizen of the Transkei who happens to Le Black must at least see something which can make him feel a citizen of the land. That is basic and we mean to hold on to it.
CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. Minister says this is a temporary measure , but I regard the Transkei Government not as a temporary government but as a permanent body.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is a temporary bill · not a temporary government.
CHIEF NDAMASE : ....and that it would make permanent laws for the Transkei and not temporary measures . The hon. Minister mentioned building societies. I am not aware that this proclamation or the regulations mention building societies . This will be inserted by this Government by amendment, perhaps , as a temporary measure . ( Laughter) Seeing we already have the towns of the Transkei , we were of opinion that these towns would only be in Matatiele , Port St. John's and Umzimkulu . ( Interjections) I think he has already forgotten what he said.
MR. GUZANA : Is that the political consideration you referred to previously? (Laughter)
MR. E.A. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. members of the Opposition have made their remarks and I don't completely blame them in respect of certain matters which they have left unsaid. They have mentioned things which should be considered by the Government. In a township people of different tribes reside and all those people should be considered as far as comfort is concerned and arrangements made for their employment because there are no lands to plough in a township. In such towns arrangements for the provision and sale of Jabulani should also be considered , (Laughter) and the people should be allowed to have control over Jabulani . People should not be worried about Jabulani because there is nothing wrong with it.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make those few remarks for the time being. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I had not intended speaking on this bill but I rise because of the remarks made by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. He mentioned that he hoped these townships will cover the whole of the Transkei.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : that?
Did he say
CHIEF NDAMASE : It seemed as though he said we would have townships over and above the towns we have.
Are you discussing the THE CHAIRMAN : motion on Jabulani now, or the provisions of this bill ?
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , when did he say that?
MR. MAPASSA : I beg your pardon, Mr. Chairman, I was encouraging the suggestions made by the Opposition. (Laughter)
CHIEF NDAMASE : We thought the only townships that were to be established would be the townships at Matatiele , Umzimkulu and Port St. John's . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : never said anything of the sort.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear , hear. MR. MAPASSA: But I want to lay stress on the subject of Jabulani .
No , I
The debate was adjourned . CHIEF NDAMASE : I thought that the Government would have these townships zoned and, seeing their policy was to have the White people leave the Transkei , it is impossible for them to carry out that policy.
The
Assembly
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the second reading of the Transkei Townships Amendment Bill was resumed.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member, come back to the bill.
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MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, there is something which I cannot quite understand in this bill. Townships will be on the land so how is it that they will now be under the Department of the Chief Minister instead of under the Minister of the Interior? There is another point on which I would like clarification. It is stated there will be a manager in charge of these townships , whereas in doing this we were trying to get away from the law of the Republican Government.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I just want to correct the hon. member. This bill is not intended to repeal Proclamation R. 293 of 1962 at the moment. It is merely intended to cure certain defects which make it inapplicable to the Transkei at the present moment.
MR. MNYANI : I am grateful for the explanation by the hon. Minister. An effort is being made to amend certain portions which do not suit the Transkei. However, I think that this question of the manager does not seem to fit in because these are towns. I note that we have villages in the Transkei but I have never known of the existence of a town manager. What we do know of is the magistrate and the police and members of the Village Management Board. There is an amendment here to provide for members of the council. We are grateful for the provision that the number of elected members is higher than the number of nominated members and we hope the Government is learning and that that will also come about in regard to this Assembly. Seeing we have this manager and a council as well , who will have the greater power over this township? I note further that the XDC will be treated as though it were a Black person and will be allowed to carry on business in these towns. I can say that the people of the Transkei do not quite understand this XDC and now we are beginning to have a township of our own and the people who are going to carry on businesses in these townships should do so on their own without the XDC. There are certain things we do not approve of as far as the XDC is concerned , such as what is happening in Mdantsane where the XDC insists that all the businesses must be their own. As the XDC has conceded that they cannot establish industries in the Transkei, let it be clear that if they are allowed access to the townships they must only be allowed if they open up a facotory and not just a shop or a business. If Jabulani is allowed to be provided it must be only with the authority of the town council and I am sure they will not allow Jabulani to be sold there. If the XDC is per-
CHIEF N.S. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I listened to the last speaker referring to XDC , and also to White capital which is not allowed in the Transkei , let it be quite clear that if White capital is permitted in the Transkei it will be an individual lending money to a single person, whereas the XDC will assist the development of the Transkei. Let it be noted that if we desire the development and progress of this country it should be for ourselves alone. If I were to reply to the hon. member I would say that the XDC ought to come in so as to help us to progress economically and according to business methods. In view of the remarks made by the hon. member as regards the townships being under the Department of the Chief Minister and not under the Department of the Interior, he should be aware that land is under the Department of the Interior but finance is under the Department of the Chief Minister. We appeal to him not to confuse us by speaking of these two departments as he did. We would like him to regard these townships in the light of the English saying that birds of a feather flock together. Let him admit that in the pursuance of education not all can be musicians; not all can be agriculturalists , but they should each follow their own lines . Let us come to an agreement that people who have natural gifts of a certain type should be allowed to live together in one part of these townships. One hon. member spoke about the necessity for the proximity of water supplies and forests to these townships . I agree with that, in that they should be near a good water supply, but I do not know what he thought the water and forests should be used for in these townships . Whatever was in his mind when he spoke about the supply of water and the presence of wood I agree with him in that I feel those are necessities in any township. Another hon. member mentioned the tea factory and suggested that a township should be built close to the proposed tea factory. If he meant to say: Why not let those factory workers just do the job in that factory and be done with farming, so that a person interested in factory work should concentrate on that and leave farming and other activities to people who are interested in those activities .... THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. member seems to be following the same trend as the last speaker. He is introducing nothing new. CHIEF JUMBA: That being so then, Mr. Chairman, it means we agree on this and need go no further with this discussion. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I shall now call upon the hon. Minister to reply.
mitted to come in as they have been instrumental in getting White capital into the Transkei , that will be all right. As our leader has said, a person should be allowed to mortgage his
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , after this very co- operative and constructive discussion on this second reading of the bill , it is hardly necessary for me to make a lengthy reply to the speeches made, more so because the hon. the Minister of the Interior ably and aptly replied to some of the points raised . I shall touch on one or two points to which he could not at the time reply. There was one point rased by the hon. member for Qumbu, Mr. Jafta , where he referred
property in order to raise a loan. If European people are willing to lend capital they should be allowed to come in as agents . We are going to have erven marked out in these townships but we should like to know how they will become available. Will they be sold by public auction or will it be first come, first served, and will the title be freehold?
398.
in the coming session . The hon. member for Umtata, Mr. Mnyani , wanted to know why this bill was being handled by the Department of the Chief Minister and piloted by the Chief Minister. I think it will be quite evident that a township is a sort of complication of responsibilities . For instance , you have the land which falls under the Department of the Interior ; you have the administration under local authorities and the Department of the Chief Minister is in charge of local authorities . If you read the explanatory memorandum to this bill you will have seen that when these townships are established various powers will be given to various Ministers . That is why, for instance , in the definition of "Minister" you don't have a clear definition that "Minister" shall mean the Minister of the Interior , for instance , or shall mean the Chief Minister . Lastly, I think the hon. members should welcome the idea that under this bill it will not only be a particular tribe that will have the right to own land in a particular township , but that all citizens of the Transkei will have the right to own property in a township. I would not like to belabour most of the points , Mr. Chairman. I have already moved that the bill be read a second time .
to the question of plans and even drew an erroneous inference to the effect that slum conditions would be allowed to develop. What this amendment seeks to do is to give a discretion for the waiver of a production of plans drawn to scale . I think the hon. members are aware ofthe fact that plans drawn to scale need high technique and some of the would- be owners of properties might not be able to foot the bill of the persons who would be required to draw such plans . MR . G.G. KUTU: Chairman... THE CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.
On a point of order, Mr.
What is out of order?
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon. the Minister of Education.... THE CHAIRMAN: What is out of order ? Just tell me. MR. KUTU : preted)
Mr. Chairman...
THE CHAIRMAN: down, please.
( Not inter-
Will the hon. member sit
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, surely if we had no Jabulani in Umtata we would not have this comic relief. (Laughter) So Jabulani has its good side - it makes us laugh sometimes .
THE CHAIRMAN : I put the question that the bill be read a second time .
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time .
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister must continue with his reply, please.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The committee stage will take place tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now, may I draw the attention of members to the provision which is intended to alleviate what would otherwise be a hardship on the part of people who want to put up property. It is on page 8 of the bill under section 12 ( 3 ) (ii) , where it says that any person who desires to obtain a building permit shall make his application to the superintendent and shall (ii) attach to his application dimensioned drawings in duplicate which, unless the superintendent has waived such requirements , shall be to scale , showing plans , sections and elevations of the proposed structure and its situation in relation to the site . Now, under (c) it says : "Every dwelling, building , outhouse or other structure in the township shall be in accordance with specifications approved by the superintendent. " So the hon. members will readily see that the houses in these townships will be in accordance with certain standards . With regard to the appointment of councillors that is contained in the Proclamation No. R293 , page 43, Chapter VIII, and the powers and functions are contained in page 45 , regulation 4. Now, the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition are highly welcome . It is always a cardinal rule whenever a town or township is to be established that certain conditions must first of all be satisfied , such as he mentioned , and I am sure the Government will
DISCONTINUANCE
OF
SALE OF JABULANI
The debate was resumed . CHIEF H.Z. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as I have already stated , we are unanimous that Jabulani must be done away with in the Transkei . The hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa compared the brewing of Jabulani with the brewing of ordinary Kaffir beer and his last question was : Is the fault with the people or is it with Jabulani ? He replied himself by saying this was a trap for the African people by the White people . We have also learned that the Jabulani brewed in Butterworth is a factory for the destruction of the people . MR. E.G. SIHELE : THE CHAIRMAN:
On a point of order... What is out of order?
MR. SIHELE : The remark that the factory is for the destruction of the people.
THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. CHIEF ZULU: The reason why I say this factory is a trap for the destruction of human beings is that you will notice that anyone who has taken Jabulani will be wet, indicating that Jabulani affects the kidneys of people who have taken it, with the express purpose that the people of the Transkei will not be able to bear
always see to it that these are kept in mind. With regard to financiers such as building societies , etc. , I think the hon. Mr. Ndamse replied aptly when he said that is intended to be recitified in the bill which is to be introduced 399.
it has the protection of the law. One would think we are beasts which are unable to distinguish between good and bad. I was surprised at the question asked as to why we did not object when " skokiaan" and other concoctions were sold . I was surprised that the question was referred to the Opposition. Who could have spoken about these things before the inception of this Government? Are we not objecting now because our Government has approved of the continued sale of this beer? I will not say anything to the erroneous statement of the hon. member for Cofimvaba who said that Jabulani is a Government concern. I can only say he thought it was a Government concern merely because the Government favours the brewing of this beer. Let us now come to the behaviour of an individual as a result of drinking Jabulani . Jabulani weakens the brain and after taking this concoction the individual staggers about not knowing where he is going. In that weak state of mind he does abominable deeds which are intolerable and this behaviour is carried on in ful . view of the public , because these beer halls are situated in areas inhabited by the people. What is going to be said of any substance which deprives a man of his intelligence so that he does not know what he is doing? This beer removes all inhibitions in a man, thus making him show the instincts of a beast. Examine a man who has consumed Jabulani ·
children. (Interjections ) I mentioned yesterday that if Jabulani is kept for more than five days it must be thrown away because it affects the lungs of the people who drink it. The people do not like this Jabulani because even in the feeding schemes there is something that looks like Jabulani and the school children refuse to take it. (Interjections ) In the bill that came before the Assembly this morning the purpose was so that Jabulani could be sold in the townships. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : tell lies . You are a chief.
Don't
CHIEF ZULU: Even if there is a huge income derived from the sale of Jabulani we maintain the sale should be discontinued as it destroys human life. We are unanimous on this point but it is only fear of the Europeans who are selling this Jabulani which makes them oppose this . THE CHAIRMAN : I think this motion has been sufficiently discussed and I shall call on the hon. Mr. Jafta to reply. MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman...
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member , please sit down. I shall ask you to march outside .
he is pugnacious , he is disorderly to the extent that no amount of reason can control him . We now see the murderous instincts aroused in those who have consumed Jabulani. How many people have been stabbed at these beer halls! How many elderly people have engaged in fights with youngsters at these beer halls ! How many people have found themselves in gaol not knowing what they have done , simply because they have partaken of Jabulani. What good can we see in such a thing ? It is said that the beer halls which sell Jabulani in urban areas do so because the proceeds derived from its sale will be used for the development of the Bantu; that these moneys will be used for the building up of townships; for the recreation and entertainment of the Bantu; in improving the lot of those people people who live near the towns . Let me ask this question: What benefit can a drunkard How can a drunken man play get from this? How will they maintain soccer or football ? those houses in which they are going to live when they have become slaves to this liquor? One gains the impression that the object of this is to destroy us as a nation, because you cannot do anything good for people whom you first destroy . What good will they drive from this if they have already become drunkards ? Whatever good is done will be of no benefit to them. Sometimes when I pass this beer hall I see policemen round the doorway . They pick up these drunken people , charge them and the next morning they are fined heavily . Mark you , some of the people who are indulging in this are government employees . They have young families to bring up, but their money is spent in the purchase In the Report of the Public of this Jabulani . Service Commission it was stated that the Commission is perturbed at the prevalence of drunkenness and that the anticipated productivity of these employees is not realised because his
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , the hon. Mr. Jafta has asked me to reply on his behalf. I shall therefore accede to his request. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret to notice that when such an important motion is being discussed some of the members think we are just here to play marbles . It is a matter which affects every parent, because it is something destructive to the youth of the Bantu people . It is a thing for which nothing good can be said, even if someone is prepared to tolerate anything bad. It is something which, although fairly new in these territories , already has casualties . It has exposed the bad characters of those who were otherwise deemed dignified. How can we entertain any doubts in our minds when we are handling such a matter? I think anyone who has been anywhere near where this Jabulani is sold would close his eyes rather than witness what is happening in those places . I am thinking of people who normally have self-respect. What is it which encourages us to allow this beer to be sold to our people ? It is not even something we can compare with other intoxicating liquors such as " skokiaan" because in the case of such concoctions there is legislation prohibiting their sale. The South African Police spend sleepless nights chasing people who manufacture these brews because those brews have already been outlawed . The shocking thing about Jabulani is that although, like these other concoctions it has bad effects , it is nevertheless protected by law. That is the thing which is really destructive to our self- respect. I mean our attitude in this , that we should say a bad thing is good merely because it has the backing of the law. It is obvious , therefore , that we are in a position where we are unable to distinguish between bad and good because even though we are in a position to see that it is a bad thing we allow it because
400.
brain is dulled by this Jabulani. Another fault is that Jabulani kills a man's apetite. When a man has drunk Jabulani he is not interested in eating the food which will build him up and eventually the resistance to disease is destroyed . You will see them suffering from skin diseases , malnutrition and other deficiency diseases , and they become exposed to the ravages of TB . Can we say such a thing is good thing? The hon. member for Cofimvaba posed the question as to whether this campaign against Jabulani means that the 200 employees at the Butterworth factory will be deprived of their means of employment. He went on to say that Jabulani brewing is one of the indistries which has sprung up in the Transkei. Can we gladly accept such industries which destroy the lives of the people? Are we going to be Jubilant when war is imminent just because a man is going to be paid for fighting, when lives may be lost? Any proposed establishment of an industry which seeks to destroy life is not to be encouraged. Quite a number of remarks have been made about Jabulani and some members actually boasted that they had a fine physique as a result of drinking Jubalani . I would like to point out that many things which appear to be good end up as evel. Even arsenic is supposed to be sweet, yet it is a fatal poison. One of these days these fine stomachs of which you boast will shrivel up. We appeal to you to retain your self-respect, that your sense of responsibility will overcome your political affiliations , because whether or not you accept Jabulani In you will remain slaves to this policy. criticizing Jabulani we are not intimidating members of the Government party because we already know that the hon. members on the Government side are completely dedicated to the consumption of this . (Laughter and interjections)
MR. GUZANA: Anybody who still walks about is still safe , but the person who cannot be saved is the one who has been drowned in this . Save yourselves from the disgrace of this... MR. T.E. KA-TSHUNUNGWA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition states in his speech that the Government side stands for the consumption of Jabulani , but the amendment... That is not a point of THE CHAIRMAN : order. Sit down, please. MR. GUZANA : You want Jabulani because your own amendment does not seek the abolition of the sale of Jabulani. It seeks to nurse this baby. Your amendment, in effect, says that we should rear this snake but how can they ensure that it gets its proper food ? According to Xhosa tradition you are the same as people who have bought medicines . You are like the people who have bought poisonous things and constantly visit the stock-kraal in the hope that the health of the children will improve . ( Laughter) We ask you to allow us to divine so that we may cure you of the enslavement that has overtaken you in regard to this Jabulani. On Thursday our mothers will be meeting to pray that you will be freed from this enslavement and that the You, sale of Jabulani will be discontinued. their sons , in spite of their prayers wish to see Jabulani remaining. It must go to the vote now, but remember that the fate of the nation is in your hands. THE CHAIRMAN: The question is a motion by the hon. Mr. Jafta to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. ka - Tshunungwa . I shall put the question that the words proposed to be deleted should be retained. The words were deleted by 50 votes to 23 after a division as follows : -
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please .
YESES .
NOES.
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TELLERS: 1. L.L. Mgudlwa 2. L.I. Cemane
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Sithemele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali 401 .
Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Banzindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Mtutuzel Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Mr. Robert Betrum Msengana TELLERS : 1 . R.B. Msengana 2. H. Zulu The words proposed in the amendment were substituted. The motion as amended : " That inthe opinion of this Assembly, the Government should discuss the question of exercising better control over the sale and consumption of Jabulani as well as the venues where such beer halls are erected with the Xhosa Development Corporation" was carried. ESTABLISHEMENT OF GENERAL AND T.B. HOSPITALS IN TRANSKEI MR. W.C. SINGATA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before moving this motion I would like to amend it to read as follows :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Government to establish general and TB hospitals in all the districts of the Transkei." THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think perhaps the hon. member for Libode might be advised to amend his motion further. When he refers to the Government we think of the Government of the Transkei in this House .
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Republican Government.
It is requesting the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Isee . Mr. Chairman, I was thinking of asking the hon. member whether he could not amend it to read "all the regions " instead of "all the districts " because hospitals are mighty things to establish.
advise the hon. members that the Government side will not oppose that motion. THE CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member move his motion?
MR. SINGATA: Chairman:-
I move accordingly, Mr.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish general and TB hospitals in all the regions of the Transkei . "
CHIEF P. JOZANA : man.
I second, Mr. Chair-
MR. SINGATA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the establishment of hospitals is very urgent and necessary. Yesterday when I visited Sir Henry Elliot Hospital there were people who were on the waiting list until as late as halfpast six because of the great number of outpatients waiting for attention. It is not necessary, therefore , for me to speak at length about this , Mr. Chairman, as it is evident that there are very many people who need medical attention who cannot be catered for in the Transkei . I was very happy to note that the hon. the Minister of the Interior was invited to visit St. Cuthbert's and with the superintendent they discussed matters of hospitalisation and allowed the St. Cuthbert's patients to put their needs before him. THE CHAIRMAN: The leader of the Government side has pointed out that they have no objection to this motion so I don't think there is any need to discuss it further.
MR. SINGATA: I accept that, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: To avoid waste of time, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
The motion was carried unanimously . 402.
INTRODUCTION
OF HEALTH EDUCATORS ' COURSE
merely stating what I have seen in the reserves. Further, it is in this Assembly only that we can draw attention to the needs of the people . I am happy to know that the Government side is co-operating in this because it is only when there is this co-operation that we shall achieve progress . As I have already stated , it is necessary that these health educators must pass information to the people in the reserves about their daily requirements . We will be happy if the Transkei Government and the Cabinet will take every necessary step to see that this is a success .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, before the hon. member moves this motion and while I might intimate that we are not opposed to it, I would like him to motivate why he wants this branch to be attached to the technical college being built. MR. K.M. GUZANA: He is going to amend it. MR . N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, my motion reads:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to erect a health educators ' college or to have this branch attached to the technical college being built. " Well, as the hon. the Minister of Education points out, I was also of opinion that this last item be omitted and have it read that any hospital be requested to include this health educators ' course . The reason why I have chosen to speak about this health education college is that I felt it might be considered that this health educators ' college might be a very expensive undertaking and consequently felt we might request one of the hospitals to introduce this course.
THE CHAIRMAN: The leader of the Government side has indicated that they are supporting the motion whole-heartedly so I do not think there is any necessity for further discussion and I shall put the question . The motion was carried unanimously. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 11th June , 1969. WEDNESDAY , 11th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I have to inform the House that this side does not oppose the motion. Has the mover put his motion? t MR. JAFTA: I put the motion as I have amended it:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to institute a health educators ' course at the
various
hospitals
in the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION; Mr. Chairman and hon, members , because of certain little difficulties could the committee stage of the Townships Amendment Bill be proceeded with at 2.15 this afternoon ? I ask leave of the House, Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to.
Transkei. " MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the matter in connection with Motion No. 15 is in the hands of the department concerned, I withdraw the motion.
That is how I would like to read, Mr. Chairman, and I move accordingly. MR. G.G. KUTU: I second.
Agreed to. MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, I bring this motion to the House because it is very important, especially as regards the Transkei. Everyone is aware of the importance and necessity for health education in the Transkei , particularly in You know view of the shortage of doctors. that to train a fully qualified medical practitioner takes from five to seven years . As far as health in the Transkei is concerned we are still very much behind and the mortality rate for young children who might have been saved is very high as a result of Kwashiorkor, malnutrition and other ailments. Medical practitioners report daily that in their areas and in their practices they meet from 30 to 60 children daily who are in need of attention. A large proportion of these children die because the health conditions are not satisfactory. It is because of this need that we are advocating the inception of these health educators . If these people are trained and distributed to the different areas they will certainly meet a great need. A health educator will find ample work among the people. It is not for me to say how they should be trained and what courses they should take , but I am
ERECTION OF F.M. MASTS MR. H.H. ZIBI : members, I move :-
Mr. Chairman and hon.
" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to instal F.M. masts to cover all areas in the Transkei where there is need for same . " In the hope that the hon. Minister in charge will explain this , Mr. Chairman, I will be brief. The FM masts that are in the Transkei at present are very far from the Maluti region so that in that particular region there is no FM reception, so that whoever has a radio it is useless as far as reception is concerned. At one stage my information is that a request had been made that a mast should be installed at the boundary between the two districts of Mount Fletcher and Matatiele . I would like to point out that the people of Lesotho could well be entertained by a mast in that area . I feel
403.
┃
the operations of the thieves in question, and you might be reminded of the fact that people in Lesotho are armed and there are certain cases where they jumped over the border , took livestock from this area of ours and just got away with it challengingly and no one could do anything about it. Of course , you know the attitude of our Government here , that even if you carry a stick to kill a snake you are are armed. Of course , if this department does not support us we cannot understand why but we hope they will be co-operative in this.
they would have been the last people to neglect Lesotho in such a way because they have assisted that territory in so many ways, though of course I do know that FM is used by our Government in disseminating information in Maluti region. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : mean?
What do you
MR. ZIBI : I mean the information is sometimes very useful and we would like to have an FM mast there so that whatever information the Government has to disseminate we should be able to receive it. With the hope that the department concerned will not oppose it , I shall not at this stage belabour the matter any further.
MR. N. JAFTA: the motion.
Mr. Chairman , I second de
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in like manner I wish to congratulate the hon. member for Mount Fletcher on this motion of his .
CHIEF S.M. LEBENYA: Mr. Chairman, I stand up to support the motion.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is my pleasure to announce to the hon. member for Maluti that this side of the House will certainly not only not oppose the motion, but will congratulate him on such a rare show of sense and responsibility. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, even with the sophisticated inhabitants of any country mass information is one of the things any land has to embark It is even more so with an infant State upon. like the Transkei when so much information regarding so many aspects of the life of the people is of such importance . Some of these things have to be done throughthe type of service that can only be rendered by the medium of radio. We therefore feel that, in fact, this is overdue and efforts will have to be made to see that the position is remedied as early as possible. We support the motion, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Although the allegation is that I am removing stock from the Transkei to Basutoland to mykinsmen , I strongly deny that because , if the hon. members will remember, at one time some of mine were taken. (Laughter) In view of the fact that I believe they were taken by my kinsmen I did not bother much, however. Mr. Chairman , this is a matter that is worrying both our own Government of the Transkei and the Republican Government, because we are not too certain who the bigger thieves are - those on our side of border or those in Lesotho. Whilst the Government intends to adopt strict measures in regard to stock theft, I appeal to the hon. members to speak to whatever thieves they know of in their particular areas and try to stop them taking stock from other people.
The motion was carried unanimously. CONTROL
OF
STOCK THEFT AREAS
MR. H.H. ZIBI : members , I move:-
(Xhosa interjections)
MR. GUZANA: Are you implying that members of this House are working in collusion with thieves?
IN BORDER
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Not necessarily, because I know very well that chiefs of certain areas know the reputed thieves in their areas . It would be very helpful if such chiefs would bring any thieves they know of to the attention of the authorities . One hon. member has just remarked that these chiefs have sheep slaughtered for them in order that they will not divulge information, that is why I say chiefs should not accept bribes . In other words , Mr. Chairman , this side of the House supports this motion.
Mr. Chairman and hon.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of putting up police stations along the Drakensberg range to combat livestock theft and that regular raids by helicopters be conducted over the said area by the Department concerned . " Mr. Chairman, I am only hoping again that the department concerned will not be opposed to this motion, so I will just say a word or two and leave it at that. Briefly, the position is that we are separated from Lesotho by the Drakensberg Mountains and thieves raiding Lesotho and our area meet at the border so that they can exchange livestock. The position was so bad that there was a time whenthe Republican Government put on helicopters to raid the area to protect the livestock of the European farmers. I am aware that in the Mount Fletcher area there is only one police station at Tabase and one other at Matatiele , so that people feel more should be done to serve as a buffer to
The motion was carried unanimously. ESTABLISHMENT OF HOSPITAL IN TSOMO AND OTHER VILLAGES MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman, I will make a request that I should amend this motion by the addition of the following words .... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, this House will recall that yesterday we passed a motion which sought to ask the Government to approach the Repub-
404
lican Government with a view to having established in every region of the Transkei general and TB hospitals . Now, in view ofthe unanimous acceptance of that motion by this House I thought the hon. member across the floor would withdraw this motion in favour of the one passed yesterday. Mr. Chairman, I wish my MR. MNYILA: hon. friend would wait until I have explained fully what I intend saying. I listened to his speech yesterday and I approve. The Fingoland region has a hospital in Butterworth which serves seven districts and these seven districts have very many this puts th fill the hospital which to overflowing, and people of Tsomo Sometimes the hospital in great difficulty. at Butterworth transfers its patients to East London or Queenstown . I appeal to my hon. friend, therefore, to allow me to elaborate on this motion. That does not mean I overlook his point of view. Does my hon. friend approve and does the Chairman approve ? བ THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I don't have to approve . You can carry on in spite of what I think. MR. MNYILA: I was saying, Mr. Chairman, I would like to amend this motion by inserting after the word " Tsomo" the words "and in every other village or town in the Transkei and (b) to build extra wards in Sir Henry Elliot Hospital. " THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Raziya's motion.
That is
MR. MNYILA: I have consulted the hon. Mr. Raziya and we have come to an agreement. I move accordingly:-
and for a whole night the patient was stranded in the cold. That incident was bitterly felt by the people of Tsomo. This very year, within the last few months , the postmaster was assaulted by a party who came from a Jabulani drink and it was very difficult for him to reach the hospital.
MR. S. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, there is no reason whatsoever that where there is common cause there should be any elaboration to the extent of confusion. This has been explained that there is a common cause ing this issue , so there is no reason for this hon. gentleman to waste time . Please control the House , Mr. Chairman. MR. MNYILA: " Mr. Chairman, I am very grateful to this hon. gentleman and I hope now his thirst has been quenched he will allow me to proceed with this motion which you have agreed I should put forward. Here is the important reason for bringing this motion , Mr. Chairman. We have a hospital here in the capital of the Transkei but there are not enough wards in that hospital. The patients requiring admission to this hospital are so many that quite a number of them have to return home because there is no accommodation for them in the wards . Here is the second request in this motion. I was interrupted by the hon. Mr. Ndzumo , but I I would just like to say a few words . In 1947 a member of the Bunga who came from St. Mark's brought a motion requesting the Government to establish a hospital in that area. That motion was very similar to the one from Tsomo today. Tsomo at that time had also put in a motion. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman , because if we do not ask for these things we shall not be granted them. MR.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish a hospital in the village of Tsomo and in every other village or town in the Transkei and (b) to build extra wards in Sir Henry Elliot Hospital. "
A.
RAZIYA :
I second the motion.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have the respect to move the following amendment : That all the words after the word " Assembly" be deleted and the following substituted therefor : "this House having adopted Motion No. 3 on the 10th June , 1969 , and in view of the fact that plans are afoot for the establishment of a new hospital in Umtata , or putting up additional wards to the existing hospital, the motion is frivolous . "
There was a request from the tribal authority in Tsomo to the effect that a hospital should be established there and the tribal authority even decided to purchase a rather large homestead which had been left by the owner, which is valued ed at R2,390, in order to turn it into a hospital to meet the urgent need for hospitalization in that area. The Tsomo area is very much like an island in that any people who have suffered injuries of any description find difficulty in getting hospital treatment in good time and this difficulty was augmented this last year when the bus leaving Tsomo for Stutterheim caught fire a few miles from Tsomo and there were many casualties . The bags of mealies which were loaded on the bus crushed the driver against the steering-wheel and broke his back. He was taken immediately to the doctor at Tsomo and the doctor advised that he be taken immediately to Butterworth Hospital . The taxi in which he was being taken to Butterworth had an accident five miles after leaving Tsomo
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Chairman, I second.
Mr.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : In support of this amendment, Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to refer hon. members to page 242 of yesterday's minutes . A motion by the hon. member for Libode , Mr. Singata , was adopted unanimously by this House and this motion runs : " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to establish general and TB hospitals in all regions in the Transkei ." If the gravamen of the complaint of the hon. member for Tsomo is that the existing Butterworth hospital shoulders a heavy burden of being supplied with patients
405.
THE CHAIRMAN: Is that out of order , now?
from about seven districts , any person who knows elementary arithmetic would have known that the establishment of hospitals in the surrounding regions to the Fingoland region would lessen the number of districts which would supply Butterworth . For instance , at the present moment plans are well advanced for the starting of building operations on the hospital at Cofimvaba, and already next to Butterworth there is a big hospital that will be opened very shortly. It has been put up already – the Kentani Hospital. In any event, if at all the motion that we adopted yesterday is put into practice it will mean that almost all the regions will have hospitals . Now, with regard to Sir Henry Elliot Hospital , there is recent correspondence from Pretoria to the effect that plans are afoot for either building a new hospital altogether at Umtata or, if not, the addition of buildings to the existing Sir Henry Elliot Hospital . So surely what is sought in that motion was passed yesterday in the first instance , and in the second instance it is being done by the department. I therefore move that amendment , Mr. Chairman.
MR. RAZIYA: That is the trouble , Mr. Chairman, with people who merely find themselves in this Assembly... THE CHAIRMAN:
Carry on with the motion.
MR. RAZIYA: It is very painful for people to regard an important matter like this so lightly. (Interjections ) GOVERNMENT MEMBER: We are not taking it lightly. THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . MR. RAZIYA : If the Government is going to take up anything they must do it immediately instead of promising and promising. I am not worried about the people who have come from Cape Town to represent the people here merely to say what the Government is saying. When the Government promises it will do something for the people it should carry it out.
MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret I have to speak on a matter that has already been discussed, but we are not informed by the Government what steps the Government is taking. I would like the hon. members to know that there are many things we wish to bring to this House and we are not going to be stopped by being told that the Government is already considering those things. Some of the things the Government does not approve of, but we want to state them nevertheless . The idea of putting a hospital in Umtata...
MR. C. DABULA : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , the hon. member is not discussing the motion but he is talking about people in Cape Town. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: It is because the members are making so much noise that they are disturbing him . MR . RAZIYA : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If anyone realises the truth of what the hon. Mr. Mnyila said .... ( Interjections ) The reason why I digress is because the members are making so much noise.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What is the use if you are going to move a motion in this House?
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order .
MR. RAZIYA : The area was surveyed but up to now nothing has been done. This was about ten years ago.
MR. RAZIYA: Take the case of a person who is injured and taken to hospital but can only be attended to hours later at midnight because there is no doctor in attendance . We wish this Government would take steps to see there is I would like always a doctor in attendance . the hon. members in this Assembly not to take this lightly .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And because the bus owner is speaking today, therefore it will be done? MR . RAZIYA : I was a young man at the time and I have visited the hospital on many occasions. Even though the Government is already taking steps to meet this need , several people have died as a result of lack of accommodation.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I think it is precisely because , as I said , the motion by the hon . Mr. Mnyila is frivolous that that hon. member is waffling and wallowing all over the show.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We know that, that is why it is being carried out.
MR. RAZIYA: I will not leave this matter....
MR . RAZIYA: People who want teeth extracted are compelled to be admitted for the night in order to have their teeth extracted at 3 o'clock in the morning. (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, he should not talk if he is going to talk outside the motion. He is talking a lot of nonsense now.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We know al that.
THE CHAIRMAN: Are you supporting the hon. Mr. Mnyila?
MR . S. NDZUMO : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, it is impertinent to have this waste of time when we know that everything is being done.
supporting the hon. Mr. Mnyila I want to stress the point of a person who is injured in the morning and only gets medical attention at night.
MR.
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RAZIYA :
Yes , Mr. Chairman.
In
How long ment of a hospital in Cofimvaba. has that plan been in existence ? This is the sixth year and nothing has been done . ( Interjections) What we want in Tsomo is that we should have a hospital to cater for all descriptions of people. A nurse from Ntlaza in the Ngqeleni district wrote to me once asking why so many patients came from Tsomo for confinement. Wasn't there a home in Tsomo where they could be admitted? We have two clinics in Tsomo but in spite of that we find it very difficult to cater for all the patients. The statement by the hon. member to the effect that efforts are being made to purchase premises in Tsomo was quite true . The hon. the Minister of Education speaks of each region having a hospital .
Think of a person who takes a taxi to come to the hospital and when he gets there he leaves the patient there and he is compelled to hire another taxi to go and wait at home. How do you view a matter like that? People who have come by tricks into this Assembly.... THE CHAIRMAN: You are out of order now. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , I rise to support this motion by the hon. Mr. Mnyila. The reason why we support him in spite of the fact that there was a motion yesterday which was approved unanimously, is that the people of Tsomo have already taken steps to find a home which could be turned into a hospital to serve their area . This motion is not opposed to the previous motion and the people will therefore be disappointed if it does not go through. The people who are trying to achieve something ought to be encouraged because these people have already done something. It is for this reason we would like to elaborate on the request for hospitals in each town and district in the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : the motion you passed yesterday .
That is
MR. MNYILA: When will these hospitals be built? The people are in difficulties now. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why did you pass that motion yesterday ? It was from your side .
THE CHAIRMAN : That was discussed yesterday.
MR. MNYILA: The question of regions does not matter much because you yourself were talking about a hospital in Kentani . We also want the services that you want in Kentani . I will not say that because your mother was born in Kentani .
MR. MNYANI : I am not discussing it, Mr. The people are also keen to have Chairman. Coming to the Sir Henry Elliot mortuaries . Hospital , we are pleased to know that steps are being taken to increase the number ofwards in this hospital because the Government of the Transkei has a habit of not informing this House of their intentions.
THE CHAIRMAN: A motion has been moved by the hon. Mr. C.S. Mnyila to which an amendment has been proposed by the hon. the Minister of Education. The question is whether the words proposed to be deleted should be deleted .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We cannot table everything we do. MR. MNYANI: Even if they cannot inform the House of everything, important things such as this should be placed before the House in the same manner as the Republican Government does. We are representing the people who want to know what is happening and what is being done about hospitalization. If we have no information we are therefore compelled to put these matters as a motion. If they do not inform this House of all they are doing we have no choice but to put in motions.
The words sought to be deleted were deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment.
You can
That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to assign a portion of the Mjanyana Leper Institution commonage for grazing of cattle belonging to the African citizens. "
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: table questions or visit the offices.
The motion as amended was carried . ASSIGNMENT OF PORTION OF MJANYANA COMMONAGE FOR GRAZING MR. G.G. KUTU : members , I move : -
MR. MNYANI: You are aware that the Ministers often evade answering questions tabled in the House. We therefore ask the members to support this motion.
Mr. Chairman and hon.
Mr. Chairman , I think this motion will have the full support of this House because of its importance. In the district of Engcobo there is a portion of land in the Mjanyana area which was given to the Government of South Africa by the Paramount Chief Ngangelizwe . During a tribal feud between the Gcaleka and Tembu tribes Ngangelizwe took his son, Dalindyebo, and hid him in the missionary house at Clarkebury. He promised the Government he would give them a certain area because they had kept his son in safety. After peace was restored
THE CHAIRMAN: I wonder if the hon. Mr. Mayila has anything to say in reply? Mr. Chairman, it is MR . C.S. MNYILA : regrettable to note that the Government side opposes anything that is in the interests of the Even if I did not say something conpublic . trary, what would it have helped seeing you oppose what the people want ? Let me just refer to a statement by the hon. the Minister of Education. He mentions there are plans for the establish-
407.
The motion was carried unanimously.
the paramount chief called the Tembu tribe of Engcobo to give the Government a portion he had indicated for the establishment of a leper hospital. Unanimously the Tembus and their paramount chief agreed to hand this land over. In about 1893 when it was proposed to fence in this area, the Government of the day took an area larger than an area indicated by Paramount Chief Ngangelizwe . When the Tembus noticed this they called their paramount chief to point out the land that was now being stolen by the White people. An elderly lady who died at the age of 104 related that when all the men had assembled and the Government and the Europeans took the paramount chief and discussed the matter with him apart from the tribesmen, they gave him sweets and other pleasant things and the chief came back and told his tribesmen to bring the horse so that he could ride home. The tribesmen wanted to know what the Europeans had done to their paramount chief, but he said: "The land belongs to me. Bring the horses and let us go; " and the Tembus in company with The area their paramount chief rode home. was fenced in, including the extra land which the Europeans had taken on their own - an
Motion No. 38 by Mr. A. Raziya was withdrawn. ESTABLISHMENT
OF FRESH MARKETS
PRODUCE
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I appeal to this House to allow me to amend this motion slightly, so that the words after the first "of" in the second line should be deleted and substituted with the words "encouraging the establishment of fresh produce markets inthe Transkei. " THE CHAIRMAN: Very well . MR. MNYANI : cordingly :-
Mr. Chairman, I move ac-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of encouraging the establishment of fresh produce markets in the Transkei." The reason why I put. in the motion in its original form was because of my experience , but realising that the same experience would occur elsewhere in the Transkei I thought I would include the other areas. I thank the
area of approximately 800 morgen in extent. Seeing it was fenced in, six of us headmen who are close to this area drive our cattle into this fenced area without being permitted to do so. If the cattle should trespaas into the area the owner is fined R2 per beast and 25 cents for goats and sheep. We appeal to the Government to give us this grazing area round the hospital for our use because Mjanyana has not sufficient Last year we stock to use the whole area.
House for giving me permission to amend it. The growing of green vegetables is of great importance among the people because they are more health-giving than other types of food. The reason why I want the sale of these green vegetables to be encouraged is because we would like to encourage the people to grow more vegetables because whatever gives a profit is attractive to the people. They will come to sell their produce but I am aware they will not sell everything because they will leave some oftheir produce for consumption in their own homes. During my early years we saw people selling their produce in this market in town. To begin with there were a few Europeans using the market, but I am happy to say that just before it was closed very many Africans were selling their produce there and there were only one or two Europeans. Unfortunately, during the last two or three years the Umtata Municipality closed the market because they said it was not profitable . The people who were using this market sent appeals to the municipal council to find out why the market hall did not pay its way, but the municipal council did not heed the appeals by the people. I also made efforts to help those people and when the municipality said anyone could hire that hall I appealed to the BIC to rent it from the municipality. They consulted with the town council on this matter. I also appealed to this Government and had correspondence with the Chief Secretary on this matter and they were sympathetic about it. I noted that the BIC were a little reluctant to enter the White-zoned area and advised us to be patient, because the Municipality of Umtata proposed putting up a market hall for the African people in the area zoned Black. For two years , however, there has been nothing to show that the municipality is doing anything in this regard. My reason for bringing this motion before the House is because perhaps the BIC or the XDC
sent the same request to the Superintendent of the hospital. We had agreed on this with the Superintendent, but later he turned round and said he would take steps to see that the meat bought for the hospital would be obtained from the de-boning factory of the Transkei. We appeal to the Government to request the Republican Government to agree to this motion.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, we are not going to oppose this motion but I just want to ask the mover a question as to whether, after this commonage has been apportioned for the people , they will remove the fences . MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, in reply we shall not remove the fences. All we ask is the right to graze our stock in that area. We are not saying anything about the fence. We will leave it alone because we have quite a number of grazing areas quite close to our arable allotments . I appeal to the whole House to support this motion.
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second, Mr. Chairman.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , my hon. friend across the floor has come to this House with a very reasonable motion. In fact, I think what he had yesterday created some impetus in him to carry out some more study and he apparently visited the archives. This side of the House , Mr. Chairman, will not oppose the motion.
408.
would accept it willingly when they found it came from this Assembly as a motion, rather than from an individual making an appeal to those two organisations for help. The Government of the Transkei need not be afraid to state openly to the BIC that the people would pay the fees for the tables in this hall. It is not that they want free service , but they merely want to be assisted. I think I have mentioned all the points I wished to bring up , Mr. Chairman. It is pitiable to see the people selling their produce in the open veld. The reason why I suggest that the other towns should also be provided with these markets is that people used to come from as far as Tsolo to sell their produce here at great expense to themselves. As a young nation with the young government we have , we will always turn to them for assistance . MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : I second the motion, Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, before moving the adjournment of the House I would like to assure the hon. member that this side of the House does give support to this motion. I do not wish to waste any time on it, Mr. Chairman. The motion was carried unanimously.
the people. Now, I am not going to go further into the activities of the Xhosa Development Corporation because the hon. members were invited to Abraham's Kraal where they were supposed to put as many questions as they wished , or to name it " shark" if they wanted to . If, for instance , a group of persons wish to start some industrial undertaking in one of these townships and they have no finances and wish to get the assistance of the XDC , this is intended to enable the XDC to assist them. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for this explanation. There is something which disturbs us as regards the XDC which is supposed to help the Bantu people , but I take it the XDC does not help the Bantu people but it helps the White people. If the XDC actually helps the Bantu people as stated , let it accept Bantu people as share-holders so that they can be sure it is helping them and you will see whether they will continue if the Bantu people take shares in it . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAM ASE : Mr. Chairman, I see there is an addition in the definitions of (0) - "Xhosa Development Corporation" means the Xhosa Development Corporation Limited. Could we have an explanation as to why it is included here . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I have already explained why it is included as a Bantu. The Xhosa Development Corporation is what is known as a legal "persona " and in order to be able to utilize its finances in a township if so required , it must be classified as a Bantu, otherwise since at the present moment the other financiers are not provided for in the proclamation and in the bill , even those people who want to take advantage of the assistance it gives would not be able to do so . I am not
The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION TRANSKEI TOWNSHIPS AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House converts itself into committee .
MR. Z.M. MABANDLA: I second.
talking about people who do not want to use the finances of the XDC , I am talking about the people who want to take advantage of it.
Agreed to.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I am stil! on the question of the XDC . Could it be made clear whether the XDC is not likely to establish on its own some work of its own as they have done here by ousting a syndicate of doctors who wanted to put up a building here ?
House in Committee
On Clause 1 CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I would like an explanation in regard to section 1 (b). I see the XDC is here regarded as a Bantu person. I do not know how a shark can be called a Bantu person. (Laughter)
These THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: townships will be under the control of the department, not the XDC , so the XDC will not just butt into a town without being invited and without negotiating with the department .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, did you read paragraph 2 of the explanatory memorandum accompanying the bill? The explanation is given there.
Clause 1 put and agreed to .
On Clause 2
CHIEF NDAMASE : Yes , Mr. Chairman, but we note that this shark is today called by a rather pleasant name , " Bantu" , and we would like an explanation.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I know from the Minister what circumstances will be taken into account when an approval of the Minister is sought to enable a person other than a Transkeian to occupy a site in these townships?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, one of the points stressed by both the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Qumbu yesterday with regard to the establishment of a town was that a town must be able , for instance , to offer employment to
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, it is one of the most difficult things to 409.
answer any such question in anticipation. However, though we in the Transkei belong to the Xhosa ethnic group there might be other people from other ethnic groups who would like to come in, for instance , to establish business in a particular township - those people who are not citizens of the Transkei . Well, this is intended to enable the Minister under certain circumstances to allow such people . There is also a fact which has not yet materialized - the question of allowing White capital on an agency basis or something of the sort. All those are some of the circumstances which might require the consideration of the Minister.
site elsewhere will be allowed to acquire either township , or will only be allowed to acquire a business site in the township. You see , he may have a kraal site in his administrative area and seek to acquire a business site in the township and a residential site inthe township. I just want to know if he will be allowed to do so.
MR. GUZANA : I raised the point because one would not like to have this approval niggardly granted, because the growth of a township really depends upon investment and industry in that township . We would like the policy of the Minister in this regard to be a liberal one, rather than a conservative one.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I would like motivation on this "appropriate certificate authorizing the occupation of the letting unit".
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: There is nothing to stop him. He will be allowed. Clause 7 put and agreed to.
On Clause 8
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In the previous regulations there was a particular form laid down of a certificate , but this present bill seeks that he shall just have to produce a certificate that he is allowed to occupy land without specifying a particular certificate .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is why, for instance , I speak about people from different ethnic groups who might like to come in and start a business or something.
Clause put and agreed to.
Clause 2 put and agreed to.
On Clause 9
Clauses 3 to 6 put and agreed to.
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, we would like this explained : "(2) (c) that the applicant is a fit and proper person to reside in the township".
On Clause 7
MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, relating to this section I think here the clause incorporates a principle which is consistent with an intention to develop a town quickly and adequately, not necessarily limiting the residence to the tribesmen who fall under a chief.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, you will find that if at all there was no provision of this nature your township would be filled with persons who have been hardened criminals and thugs elsewhere . This is intended to screen against such persons .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member is looking at the explanatory notes, not at the section of the bill . Section 7 is just the substitution of " Minister" for " Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner".
MR. GUZANA : explanatory notes?
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I am not satisfied because a criminal who has served his sentence is now free and has paid for the offence . (Laughter) MR. K.M. GUZANA : Section 9 (2) authorizes the screening and the grant of a site to an individual. Now, Schedule M on page 20 , (2) ( c) says: " Except with the approval of the Minister the land hereby granted shall not be held under registered title by more than one person. " In the bill itself you will find it. Now , I am thinking of two people coming together in a joint endeavour and seeking to secure the rights of occupation and interest on their investment by having the land registered in their name together; or you may have a father buying a site for his two or three sons to own jointly and this requires registration. I am referring to that provision in Schedule M because we are dealing with the granting of sites.
How does it relate to the
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Section 12 , I think. You are dealing with section 7 which deals with ownership by a particular tribe .
MR. GUZANA : You see, there is clause 7 on page 5 in the explanatory notes , under paragraph 12. I think the regulation which is being amended also deals with the granting of sites. In other words , regulation 7 which is sought to be amended by substitution.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No. actually here it is the question of transferring the powers . In clause 7 the powers are transferred from the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner to the Minister.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, section 2 is clear. It says " except with the approval of the Minister " . It says it can be done, but what is sought is to prevent slum conditions developing. It says "except with the approval of the Minister".
MR. GUZANA: Yes , it is the powers I want What I want an explanation to speak about. of is whether or not a person who has a kraal
MR. GUZANA: Would there be resulting slum 410.
conditions if you have two or three people jointly acquiring a site , for instance to put up a boarding establishment or flats or something like that?
is concerned , the Ministers are aware of the fact that there is this House where they get all sorts of attacks , especially in the vote of no confidence, and even in their Votes , so the Ministers will be sure that whatever decisions they make they do not just made decisions arbitrarily.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Suppose they put up all sorts of buildings on that site belonging to different people? MR. GUZANA: a building plan.
MR. GUZANA : I accept that, but Ministers have got into the habit of saying it is in the interests of the public when they give reasons That is what worries me , and you throw a smokescreen round your decision.
But the regulations require
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This prevents sub-division.
Clause 9 put and agreed to. MR. GUZANA : jointly .
Yes, but they might own it
On Clause 10
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They might sub-divide if it is registered in the name of two or ten people .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I am worried about these fees , rents and other charges which may very well become prohibitive . May I get an assurance that in the transfers and registrations the fees will be nominal ? I suppose those of us who have acquired properties know how prohibitive these transfer fees are .
MR. GUZANA: Don't you think it is better to prevent a sub-division, for instance by providing that an erf acquired cannot be subdivided to be sold?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The fees will not be at all prohibitive . In fact, they are never more than R2.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This one is all right too, because there is a safety valve . It is not that the thing is absolute - it is except with the approval of the Minister .
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman, I note that you talk about rentals , whereas we thought the people were going to buy the land. Can you explain to us what these rents are ?
MR. GUZANA: Well , you see , we would rather it be a right rather than something to be considered and approved by the Minister. Quite a number of municipalities have regulations prohibiting the sub- division of erven sold by the municipality, but there is nothing to prevent two people owning an erf jointly and having their names registered . Thus you may have "Matanzima Brothers" buying a business site and having the names of Matanzima and the brothers or sons registered in the title. (Laughter) In other words , here there is joint ownership amongst three , four or five persons and these persons may seek to have their ownership indicated in the deed of grant.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not all the land that will belong to individuals . For instance , the Government might erect buildings and hire these to the people . Do you expect them to reside there without paying rent? MR. MNYANI: I understand the explanation, but I did not know these townships were going to be locations of the Government. It appears as though this is going to be another Mdantsane . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are surely a suspicious one . Even in the town here there are government buildings. Is Umtata Mdantsane ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is provided for by the Minister who will have to approve of it.
MR. MNYANI : Under (c) (3) I would like to know what the manager is going to do.
MR. GUZANA: Why should he approve of it? It should be a right.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The manager will be a civil servant who will be in control of the township and will work through the magistrate to the department , and there will also be a township council.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I told you why . MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman , this section is not approved because it appears that all the time we will have to go to the Minister and take off our hats and beg. We want to be assured that the land belongs to us.
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Now, if you are going to have a township council , why not have a mayor? You see, the manager is an employee of the Government. In other words , the Government has a finger in the local administration to the extent that the man at the head of the township is subject to the Government. The word " manager" is tainted with the flavour of municipal locations as distinct from a town in the proper sense of the word "town" . May I just go further in regard to clause 10 (c ) (3) ? It seems the transfer of these sites from one person to another, " if the manager approves of
MR. GUZANA: If the Minister should not approve, what redress will these people have ? They may have before them a legitimate objective. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, it is a known fact that Ministers don't just act capriciously. Though there is no appeal from the decision of the Minister as far as this
411 .
the transfer of a certificate he shall cancel the certificate of the transferor and issue a fresh certificate to the transferee " .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As I said, that refers to the letting units under section 9 of the proclamation. Any person who is the head of a family and is desirous of taking up his residence in the township and to occupy together with the members of his family a dwelling erected by or belonging to the Trust (Trust now has been eliminated ) shall apply for a certificate in respect of such dwelling and of the site on which such dwelling stands .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: That is for a letting unit. Mr. Chairman, I will first of all reply to the question on the manager. Now, this manager is the person who will be more or less in the same position as the town clerk - that is, to get the machinery going until such time as the people can take over.
MR. GUZANA : So that it is purely a local arrangement between the lessor and the lessee? MR . R. MADIKIZELA: town clerk from the start?
Why not call him a MR . B.S. MNYANI : Will it be possible for one person to have three or four sites ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I explained to you that this is merely an amendment to an existing proclamation and these things are to be found in that proclamation. When we come up with a bill which will amend that whole proclamation then we might consider having these incorporated.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is nothing to stop him.
Clause 10 put and agreed to. Clause 11 put and agreed to. On Clause 12
MR. GUZANA: Whilst on your feet, the trouble with our Cabinet is this that they say this is a re-enactment of what was enacted in the past. That is what you usually do.
-
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I would like an explanation from the hon. Minister on section 12 (b) as to whether a wall partition in a dwelling would be regarded as unsuitable if it is erected to stop fire going from one section to another, and the parents use one section and the son and daughter-in-law use the other section.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , let us talk about this now. This is merely amending certain sections of the proclamation. MR. GUZANA: Now, this section is being amended - will the manager be accountable to the town council or the Government? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : employee of the Government. MR. GUZANA : the council.
Most THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : unfortunately the decision as to what is a proper or not a proper building is not entrusted to me. Now I am being called upon to decide what is a proper house and what is not proper. It says in (c) that every dwelling, building, outhouse or other structure in the township shall be in accordance with specifications approved bythe superintendent.
He is an
And he is the town clerk of
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , you see the council's powers are laid down in the proclamation and the manager, of course , will be accountable to the people who have employed him.
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman, I now note there is a new term here. Is the superintendent the same person as the manager, because in the municipal location here we have two different people ? One is a superintendent and one a manager. Why is it said that it is for the individual to decide what material he uses ? Should he not just be told ? In town here
MR . GUZANA: Yes , the trouble is the Government make a directive and the directive may be at variance with the decision of the township council - then what is the position? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The manager transmits the decision of the township council through the magistrate to the department.
we are told what material we must use to put up a building .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You see , the superintendent will have plans to which he would like all buildings to conform, but this also gives a right to the people to come with their own plans so that the superintendent can see whether or not to approve of such plans and the materials to be used . I am surprised that you ask such a question, because you are always saying that the people are oppressed and they are never allowed to make their own choice . I can anticipate that if it were said that if the superintendent was the only person to decide what materials to be used you would be the first to squeal and make complaints.
MR. GUZANA: Yes , andthe department says : No, we don't want it that way. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Of course, the word of the department is final. Then it is not a town any MR. GUZANA : more - you properly call it a township. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : have said this is an interim measure .
Well, I
MR. GUZANA: Well, at least we know what we are dealing with now. We have no illusions . What about the transfer of the certificate ?
MR. MNYANI : I am not opposed to the plans . 412.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Before the hon. Minister replies , suppose a man has a house in this township and also a "khaya" in a location , what will be the position? 10 S THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am merely replying to your question because you are a chief. You know Ngangelizwe is a municipal location governed by the regulations of that particular location. Now, this bill deals with townships .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : On a point of order, supposing the manager says the building will only be of burnt brick and you would like to use cement blocks , wouldn't you squeal if you were prevented from using those? MR. MNYANI : These are usually stipulated as building materials in the towns. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I want an answer to that. It is not a slum if you use cement bricks. What I want to know is what would you say if the superintendent said houses here must only be of burnt bricks ?
MR. J.M. DUMALISILE : Seeing that a person will pay local tax in the reserves for the site and the plot of land he owns there , and will also have a site here , is the person therefore permitted to have a wife in the reserves and live in the location with yet another wife ? (Laughter)
MR. MNYANI : We would be entitled to complain. Does that mean you are going to have a slum? Can I bring my thatching grass along and build a thatched hut? The hon. Minister has not explained the question of the superintendent and manager . Are they one and the same person?
MR. GUZANA: Is that perhaps why this bill should have been piloted by the hon. the Chief Minister ? ( Laughter )
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It must be remembered that this proclamation was passed by the Republican Government to cover the rest of the Republic as well as the Transkei. It operates in Mdantsane and in Zwelitsha and KwaMashu and all over , so that is why. Some of these are very big and they have the superintendent and the manager .
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, if you have a kraal site in an administrative area and the site in a township , will you pay local tax on both?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No, you will not pay local tax in respect of the site in the township but in respect of your kraal site in an administrative area.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : I would like to know if the people who are going to visit this location from outside will not be arrested when found sleeping in the houses in that township?
Clause 17 put and agreed to. On Clause 18 MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, it would appear here that the only corporation contemplated is the Bantu Investiment Corporation or the Xhosa Development Corporation. Can we not here put in an amendment after Xhosa Development Corporation to read: " or any other legally constituted corporation or body, " rather than have this right reserved for the BIC or XDC only? It is the Secretary who may allocate letting units to the BIC or XDC and I think we should also include other corporations .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You are not dealing with the section we are on now. Clause 12 put and agreed to.
Clause 13 put and agreed to. On Clause 14
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, this section refers to the Trust. By this Trust does the section perhaps refer to the XDC ?
MR. B.S. MNYANI : I second that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Leader of the Opposition was merely finding out whether that could be moved , he was not moving it. You were too quick in seconding. Mr. Chairman, I have already made an intimation to the effect that the question of allowing White capital into the Transkei under certain conditions is being Now, if we say " other corporaconsidered. tions" we will be opening the door even to White capital.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The Trust referred to here is the Bantu Welfare Trust and it is being done away with. It is not being replaced by the XDC .
Clause 14 put and agreed to. Clauses 15 and 16 put and agreed to. On Clause 17
MR. GUZANA : Throughthe Government on an agency basis .
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I would like the hon. Minister to explain section (b). It is clear that a person residing in this location will not pay local tax. I would like to know what he thinks of other locations where the people reside not in their own dwelling huts and we would like to know why these are allowed free , whereas the people in Ngangelizwe location are not allowed to occupy these houses free.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , it does not say that. If you say " other corporations " it is just opening the door without any conditions. MR. GUZANA : You see, the BIC acts on an agency basis ; the XDC acts on a agency basis . Why can't another corporation act on an agency basis?
413.
man, I know there is gold within the Transkei and our difficulty in mining this gold is because of the gases underground which makes it very The XDC , the dangerous to mine the gold. membership of which is citizens ofthe Republic , are treating us as a gold mine. I would like the hon. Minister to explain that point .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Are you talking of a corporate body irrespective of its constituents ? MR. GUZANA : yellow.
It could be Black , White or
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is why I say we have not yet ironed out the question of allowing in White capital . As it is now, you say it might be Coloured, it may be White, it may be Black.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Before the hon. Minister replies to the question , I am still asking why the Bantu Investment Corporation and the XDC are allowed , whereas other corporations which might like to open businesses here are not mentioned. The XOC as well as the Government of the Republic have agreed that the work of developing the Transkei economically is far beyond their ability to cope with. When we were at Abraham's Kraal we were told that there is a - company that would like to have a tanning factory here and that would be opened at Butterworth, but we are excluding such enterprises and opening the door only for the XDC and Bantu Investment Corporation. The Minister says we will be opening the doors too wide if we allow any other corporations , whereas the Minister has the key to open or lock the door . The Ministers are only too happy for the people to keep coming into their offices to make application to be allowed into the Transkei .
MR. GUZANA: Yes , you have those corporations and if they seek to establish an industry or factory in the township they will have to apply from the Government and you can say Yes or No. But here they are being specifically excluded to the advantage of the XDC and BIC which are specifically included. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Now which are being excluded?
MR. GUZANA: Any other corporations except the XDC and the BIC . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : And I say for the moment we don't want to open the doors even to White capital .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, those who were here in the erstwhile Legislative Assembly will remember that the Government was quite adamant on the question of White capital coming into the Transkei . I have been mentioning this afternoon time and again that the question of White capital being allowed into the Transkei under certain conditions is under consideration. I do not know how I may drill this fact into the mind of the hon. member for Umtata across the floor. With regard to that question by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, this clause 18 which is the substitution of regulation 51 ofthe proclamation , dealing with the Bantu Investment Corporation and the Xhosa Development Corporation in specifically giving them the right of acquiring ownership units or letting units ....
MR . GUZANA: Isn't the XDC White capital ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION:
Bantu.
MR. GUZANA : Since when?
CHIEF D.D.F. NDAMASE : What provision is there here for a Bantu corporation ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : This is specifically put because , as you saw from the definitions , the XDC had to be classified as Bantu for the purposes of this proclamation, but a corporation of Bantu people is allowed. MR . GUZANA: Why mention XDC and Bantu Investment Corporation specifically then if it is already a Bantu? It need not be specifically mentioned because a Bantu is defined in clause (1 ) (b) and that definition includes the Xhosa Development Corporation and the Bantu Investment Corporation. They are defined there as Bantu.
MR. GUZANA : May I say that as you speak to clause 18 what you say will relate to clause 21 , just as our comments on clause 18 are also relevant to section 21 . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes, in Proclamation R.293 of 1962 , Chapter III , section 4 (1) - " Any Bantu person, company or other corporate body in which a Bantu or Bantu persons has/have a controlling interest, association , syndicate or partnership of Bantu persons which desires to carry on any trade on a trading site within the township shall apply for a deed of grant or a certificate as the case may be in respect of such site. " So that these are given more or less the same meaning.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is to make it clear with regard to the XDC and BIC in case of any doubt.
MR. GUZANA : Is there any doubt about it now that it is included in the definition? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : might be.
There
· CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : There is this XDC which is now called a Black person. They are outside the bounds of the Transkei but they are trading in the Transkei and they take the profits back to the Republic in their own areas. How will the Transkei develop economically in the circumstances ? To make it clear , Mr. Chair-
Clause 18 put and agreed to.
Clauses 19 to 22 put and agreed to. On Clause 23 414.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: has explained the position.
MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, I am interested in the constitution of the council. Are there going to be nominated and elected members? If there are nominees , who nominates them ? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Look under (c) - " The members of a township council who are to be elected shall be elected by the occupiers of the township. The members of a township council who are to be selected shall be selected by the Secretary from amongst the occupiers of that township. "
Your leader
MR. ZIBI :: The position is this : This is a township which is not under a headman. Why must he have a representative in the township when the township is not under him? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That is precisely why this member will be an ex officio omember, to look after the interests of the people surrounding that particular township. MR. ZIBI: They may still say they don't want him and legally he has no status .
MR. ZIBI: The Secretary of the department? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes .
MR. GUZANA: It is just to pamper the chief, that is all.
MR. ZIBI: He is in Umtata and they are perhaps at Bisi in Umzimkulu.
Clause 24 put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: 10 He is usually consulted.
Clauses 25 to 31 put and agreed to. On Clause 32
Clause 23 put and agreed to. On Clause 24
MR. H.H. ZIBI : M. Chairman, these words "Minister in consultation with the Minister of Finance " - which Minister is this ? Isn't it the Chief Minister in consultation with the Minister of Finance in our case ? The same man consulting with himself? (Laughter)
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, first of all we questioned the right of the chief or headman to have a representative , but since that has been accepted as a principle in the second reading is it not possible so to word that section . as to give the tribesmen the right to elect a representative on the township council to protect, for instance, the rights of adjoining persons next to a river - that is, riparian rights ? You may have to have disposal works , etc. , outside the boundaries of the township and this representative may well look after those interests. Should this not be a person who is elected by the tribesmen, rather than nominated by the chief or headman?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It will be the Minister in terms of the definitions which we have already dealt with. MR. ZIBI : If he chooses not to designate anyone it means he is the Minister officiating and it means he is consulting with the Minister of Finance who in turn is himself. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is nothing wrong with that. You sometimes see the Deputy Chairman reporting progress to himself here. (Laughter)
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, under clause 24 (2) , should the representative not be an elected person rather than a nominated one?
MR. GUZANA: No , he reports to the House . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Ifyou read this sub-section carefully it will be quite apparent that this nominee ts intended to be the representative of the chief or headman. That is the principle and my contention is further strengthened by the fact that he will be an ex officio member. In any event it is felt that chiefs do not usually act unilaterally in such matters . They usually consult with their counsellors , but the principle of this sub- section is that this person will be the representative of the chief or headman.
Clause 32 put and agreed to.
Clauses 33 to 39 put and agreed to . Mr. Chairman, I do MR. K.M. GUZANA : feel that the hon. Minister responsible for this bill in the committee stage owes the Opposition a debt, and the debt he owes this side of the House is by way of a luncheon at the restaurant before this session rises. (Laughter) Whilst we have agreed to forego a right which we could otherwise have exercised to the embarrassment of the Government, we do feel that the Government should bear in mind whatever comments have been made during this committee stage even if they were not accompanied by written amendments . If anything , we have become disabused of the impression that these were intended to be towns and we are wondering when this Government will realise that it should set aside areas for town development, rather than for township development. Lastly, may we recommenu to the hon. Minister that when we are
MR. H.H. ZIBI: Do you still regard these people as ordinary tribesmen - the people who live in these townships? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The people who live around the township are ordinary tribesmen.
MR.
ZIBI:
And those in the townships ?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They will be a mixture .
Sitting in session after the Deputy Chairman
415 .
" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Umtata Municipality to build market stalis near the Jubilee Hall . "
has reported, that we adjourn the House for the day.
Clauses 40 and 41 put and agreed to.
Mr. Chairman, Umtata is about the biggest town within the Transkei. On that account it has a big attraction for people seeking employment, especially as regards the widows and wives who have been deserted by their husbands and people who do not find it easy to get employment in the work centres. For that reason the population in the location of Umtata has greatly increased , to such an extent that people who were labourers on the farms and have ceased to work there have come to the location and have increased the population to such an extent that they are being turned out. It is estimated that the population has reached about 15,000 and that added to the number of people living just outside the municipal area has made the population so great that people cannot get employment. When people cannot find employment they resort to ways of living which are against the law, such The people for as selling dagga and so on. whom I am making this request that they should be allowed to sell whatever produce they can near the Jubilee Hall are struggling to make a living and most of them are womenfolk. You find them with their wares all over the road trying to sell to passers -by. We do not feel that they are depriving licensed people of their business channels. The people who have greengrocers ' licences here approve of these people because they act as agents for them and they are often put out when these people are arrested. They have applied to the municipal council to be granted licences to hawk their wares round the residential areas but the council will not grant them licences. It appears from the papers that even the magistrates are sympathetic towards these people and they do not often impose fines which the law lays down. It surprises us that in Umtata people are not granted licences to sell produce in this way, whereas in East London and Durban people can easily obtain licences . When people visit the big towns and see these people being allowed to hawk produce they feel very sympathetic towards these people here. The police arrest these people in the streets and the produce they are selling is usually confiscated and thrown in the bins in the street. Although they are arrested today you will find the same people selling again the following day in the streets , which makes it evident that these people have no other way of making a living. Mr. Chairman, I appeal to the whole House to support this motion, for these people have families to support.
The long tiltle and the whole bill put and agreed to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, just before we return to the normal sitting of the House I would like to reply shortly to the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and to assure him that the remarks he made will be carried to the responsible Minister, and also to thank the hon. members of the Opposition for having co - operated. They will surely be reimbursed by adjourning earlier. I move that you report progress , Mr. Chairman. House Resumed THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. members , I have to report that the Transkei Townships Amendment Bill , 1969 , has been passed by the committee without amendment. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the third reading will be tomorrow or so soon thereafter. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 12th June, 1969.
THURSDAY, 12th JUNE , 1969 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEJ ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman , in regard to this item I think the hon. the Chief Minister is on his way, so I request that we wait for him. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I crave the indulgence of the House to apply for leave to introduce the second reading of this bill tomorrow. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Now , which is it? There are two requests before this House , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : mine.
I withdraw
Does the House agree THE CHAIRMAN: to the request of the hon. the Minister of Education?
MR. A. RAZIYA : I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon, members , I will not disappoint the hon. member for Umtata in his endeavours to please the location people who have elected him, but I will tell him that we on this side of the House will support the motion. He has already remarked that our womenfolk who sell these things do so because it is their only means of making a living and it is one of the means by which they can educate their children. It is a matter
Agreed to. MARKET STALLS NEAR JUBILEE HALL IN UM TATA MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I put the motion as it appears on the order paper :416.
so that a headman found guilty in terms of section 46 should have his punishment recommended by the residents over whom he exercises jurisdiction, with the chief and the magistrate present to receive the recommendation of the residents and to approve . "
for regret to see these people , some of whom are elderly, being chased by the police . While I was Minister of the Interior these women often came to me to complain of the ill-treatment they were receiving. My department and I often showed sympathy with them. We are thankful today that the hon. member has introduced this motion for the erection of market stalls for their benefit. It is to be hoped that when once these stalls have been erected their wares will not be contaminated with flies and dust. There is no need to be lengthy on this, Mr. Chairman. C1
MR . A. RAZIYA :
After I have spoken to this motion I have every hope that I will get an explanation from the hon. Minister in charge of this department , and should his explanation satisfy me I shall withdraw the motion. The way in which headmen become deposed at times does not satisfy the public. I would like to begin by saying that headmen are important people in so far as the general running of the Transkei is concerned . Further, headmen are not permitted to undertake any other employment and they must concentrate on the duties allocated to them . These men
Mr. Chairman and hon.
members , there is no need to say much about this but the Cabinet has a habit of just agreeing to a thing. (Interjections) We have had other motions passed here but we do not know the outcome of those motions. We hope , however , that the Government will realise how very important this motion is, as has already been stated. This is a surprising matter. When the Transkei Government took over the local market died.
therefore ought to be protected as headmen and should feel quite safe in their positions and not just like scraps of paper which are blown about. If it should be necessary to dispose of the services of the headman , consideration should be given to his length of service as is done in other avenues of employment. According to this Act No. 4 , section 45 , the deposal of a headman, it says that if a headman has committed a crime it is the Minister who lays a charge against him . An inquiry is instituted by the tribal authority in the area over which the headman serves. Now, the painful part is that even before the case has been decided on and brought to court, you hear people in the buses and at beer drinks telling the public that on such-andsuch a date they are going to depose the headman. They go further to say after they have deposed the headman they will depose another headman who at the time may not have committed any crime . We ought to regard members of the tribal authorities as responsible people. It is not expected that whenever there is a case pending the people should already be saying that the headman wil be deposed . I have already learnt that the Government is taking steps in this regard so that things of this nature will not happen again as they have in the Qumbu district. I think you will remember the case of a headman of whom we spoke in this Assembly, when the hon. the Chief Minister said he had been reinstated . What we are seeking is that if the tribal authority is given power to investigate a case in connection with a headman, then such investigations should be kept strictly confidential and secret and must not be made public. Such a headman should be given the opportunity and be informed of the date when the hearing will take place . He must be given ample time to defend himself. This motion , in seeking that such a report be given first to the magistrate who will pass the information to the office in Umtata, is put forward with this express purpose. Let us suppose that the tribal authority has found the headman guilty. It is especially in that regard that we appeal to the Minister and his department to be most careful in investigating the matter. They should not be in a hurry to approve of the decision of the tribal authority. They should first investigate the matter and satisfy themselves thoroughly before doing so, We have every confidence in the Minister and his department because in many cases when a
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Sit down. THE CHAIRMAN : motion now?
Are you discussing this
MR. RAZIYA : I am talking about the local market, Mr. Chairman. To show the importance of this I would like to point out that there are people who make a living solely by selling these vegetables - people whose economic level is even better than Members of Parliament and who have been able to retire because of the amount of money they have made out of this business . On that account, therefore , we feel that this is a very necessary and urgent step. People came from Sidwadwa to sell at the market and they ordered their vegetables and fresh produce from East London to sell here. Their economic status is even better than that of our Members of Parliament . ( Interjections ) It is a sad thing that we should have representatives who do not understand the importance of things of this nature . It is certainly true that we should have representatives who are are suitable and in order to have a proper Transkei we should have representatives who understand. Some of the representatives here have merely come to get paid out of the taxes of the Transkei people. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : It has already been said that there is no need for further discussion. I shall now put the motion.
The motion was carried unanimously. SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF SECTION 46 OF ACT NO. 4/1965 CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I appeal to you to allow me to make an amendment to this motion. It should read " section 46" instead of "45 " . I therefore move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should.consider the advisability of amending Act No. 4 of 1965 of the Transkei 417.
finding, the reasons therefor and any observations which he might wish to make. " And the whole thing will be hereinafter referred to as the record of the inquiry. Now , that sets out the system of the inquiry. (3) " If the officer has found that the paramount chief, chief or headman is guilty of the misconduct the Minister shall forward a copy of the record of the inquiry firstly, in the case of a paramount chief or chief to the regional authority and, secondly, in the case of a headman to the tribal authority conThe paramount chief seems to know cerned." this section off by heart. (Laughter) Now , when the hon. Minister sends this record either to the regional authority or to the tribal authority he also specifies that the regional authority or the tribal authority, as the case may be, should forward their recommendations within a specified time. It says here : "and such authority shall thereupon within a specified period by the Minister · (i) caution or reprimand the paramount chief, chief or headman; or (ii ) impose on him a fine not exceeding R100 payable or recoverable from his salary or other remuneration for the benefit of the Transkei Revenue Fund in any such instalments as the authority may determine ; or ( iii ) suspend him from office without salary or other remuneration for a period not exceeding two years; or ( iv) impose on him any two or more of the punishments referred to in sub-paragraphs (i) , (ii ) and (iii ) jointly; Then subor (v) depose or dismiss him , "
headman is likely to be deposed in this manner some other person has already been mentioned who is likely to take his position, and the tribal authority wants that man to act. However, the Government has laid down ways and means that if a tribal authority finds a headman guilty they must follow a certain line of action. Among other things the headman may be reprimanded or perhaps fined , or he may get a suspended fine , and finally there is the deposition of a headman. It is with regard to this deposition that we are appealing specially to the hon. Minister so that in that case the length of service rendered by the headman and his ability and services to the Government must be taken into consideration. I appeal , therefore, to the hon. Minister and I have every confidence that he will take the necessary steps in this regard , together with his department. MR. N. JAFTA: the motion.
Mr. Chairman, I second
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, before I move an amendment, I shall make a short explanation to the hon. member and pause to see whether or not he will not withdraw the motion. In the first place the inquiry is not conducted by the tribal authority, but by an officer duly appointed by the Minister. That is according to the section quoted by the hon. member for Qumbu. For the benefit of hon. members I think it is proper that I should read the whole section because there are very few hon. members who have got the section quoted. Section 46 (1 ) reads as follows :- "Whenever there is reason to believe that a paramount chief, chief or headman is guilty of misconduct in that he (a ) fails or refuses to comply with any provision of this Act or of any other law with which it is his duty to comply; (b) disobeyes , disregards or makes wilful default in carrying out a lawful order given to him by a person having lawful authority to give it or by conduct displays insubordination; (c) uses intoxicants or stupefying drugs excessively; (e) abuses his powers or extorts or by the use of compulsion or arbitrary means obtains any tribute , fee, reward or present; (f) tries or punishes any person without being duly authorized thereto by or under any law; (g) becomes a member or takes part in the affairs of an organisation or association whose objects are subversive and/or prejudicial to constituted government or law and order; (h) is indolent or negligent in the discharge of his duties, the Minister may charge him in writing with such misconduct, appoint an officer in the service of the Government to inquire into the matter and give such instructions in regard to the inquiry at which the paramount chief, chief or headman shall be entitled to be heard as he may deem fit : Provided that the proceedings shall not be invalidated by any failure of the paramount chief, chief or headman to attend the inquiry. (2) The officer holding the inquiry shall (a) keep a record of the proceedings; (b) at the conclusion of the inquiry find whether the paramount chief, chief or headman is guilty or not guilty of the misconduct and inform him of his finding; and (c) forward to the Minister the record of the proceedings, a statement of his
section (4) goes on: "Any punishment imposed under sub-section (3) shall be subject to confirmation - (a) in the case of a paramount chief or chief by the Cabinet: Provided that where paramount chief or chief is deposed or dismissed such deposition or dismissal shall be subject to confirmation by the State President. " It means that with the other punishments , excluding (v) the confirmation will be by the Cabinet and then if he has to be deposed (that is , a chief or paramount chief" from office then the State President must confirm such deposition and dimissal; and, in the case of a headman, by the Minister. Now , this is very instructive that is , (v) - that it shall be in the discretion of the State President, the Cabinet or the Minister as the case may be to confirm any such punishment that is recommended by the regional authority or tribal authority, or to refer it back to the authority concerned for further consideration within such period as may be specified . Now, I pause for a reply.
CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am grateful to the hon. Minister for reading these regulations not only for my own benefit, because I knew them already (Laughter) but I am quite certain that by reading this he has helped quite a number of the members of the Assembly and of the regional authorities . Just for your information I would like to mention a certain headman who was deposed and another appointed in his position and it was the intervention of the magistrate which brought things to an end. I am happy that the chiefs on the other side have been informed and I therefore withdraw my motion.
Agreed to. 418.
The motion was withdrawn.wm
THE CHAIRMAN:
,alogob ESTABLISHMENT OF MILK DEPOTS to vic MR . L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I put the motion as recorded : -
MR. MAJIJA: tis on that account that I feel the Government must provide means for combating malnutrition, because the wage level as so Prois low. The Government must buy such things and give this to the people . I visited a few hospitals within the Transkei and in one hospital I was told there were so many cases of Kwashiorkor that not all could be admitted. They told me that they only admitted about 24 cases a year. They further stated that 40 per cent of thecommodation they had was the exclusively for the patients suffering from Kwashiorkor. They told me it costthe hospital R16,000 per annum to keep these Kwashiorkor patients . In another hospital I was informed that they gave the patients Pro- Nutro and other nutritious : foods and allowed them to go home. Let us take the case of a child who is brought up suffering as I have described and who grow up to be a resident of the country. we be assured that such a person Iwill wil be useful as
OM "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing milk depots with a view to combating malnutrition in the Transkei . " OW LOY POV STE One may perhaps say that we have already a feeding scheme for school- children. I am thinking not only of children who attend school. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is not only for school -going children - it is general . of children who MAJIJA: I an am thinking of MR. МАЛЈА. suffer from malnutrition and who do not get sufficient milk from the breasts of their mothers. Mothers ' milk is the natural way of feeding a It happens that a mother who suffers baby. herself from malnutrition will bear children who, as a result, will be found to be delicate . I am sure there is not a single government which would not be touched by seeing pictures of child(Displaying newspaper photoren like this.
a member of the community ? "A healthy mind in a healthy body" is a true saying . From babyhood a person is the responsibility of the State and the State later finds there are people who must be treated free for such diseases as TB and smilar diseases , whereas if the Government had taken the necessary steps from the very had these diseases. beginning we would not have ha This is a matter which affects not only the children of theOpposition and of the Government members , but all the children in the Transkei, because everyone has children and those who have not got them will have them . I have every hope that this motion will not be opposed by anyone here , especially those who are parents and who are interested in the welfare of their children.
graphs) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Biafrans .
That is out of the th motion.
Those are
MR. MAJIJA: If you move around you will find quite a number of children like this in the country. The infant mortality rate is quite 100 shocking. Our children die . Can the Government therefore be in a position to tolerate such a state of affairs ? Means should be provided So s that the children can get sufficient milk to feed them . Milk may be ordered from the farmers in the Komga area and also Ugie and Maclear. ilk from which butter-fat There is the cheap milk has been extracted and the reason I suggest that milk should be bought and sold to the people is because I know people have not enough money to pay for the good milk. There are many other milk powders . The Government should provide these in order to help combat malnutrition amongst the children. What sort of citizens shall we have if they all suffer from malnutrition? Elderly people also suffer from these deficiency diseases because they live on mealiepap only and their weak bodies are therefore subject to attacks by diseases such as pellagra and scurvy. A human being cannot be healthy on mealies alone . In the past people had plenty of I milk and they vwere A therefore healthy and strong. One English poet, John Donne, said : "No man is an island entire of itself. Any man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee." This means you cannot really be healthy and feel healthy if you live among people who suffer from malnutrition because you will also suffer from the disease that attack them. I can almost say that what has made people look down on the Government is that they have not provided sufficiently for the subsistence of their subjects. People must be paid a living wage so that they can bring up their children properly.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : I second the motion. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, perhaps it will be clearer if I start by saying that all the hon. member has been saying and at times what he has been trying been in the mind and not to say only in has the, fact mind of the Government, but the Government is busy handling all that. So here is what is generally called a counter-motion. It is 15 a matter of changing the general terms he has used in view of the fact that he is not handling the matter as a government. The Government must not only be aware of a particular situation , they must also be in a position to have ways and means of dealing with that particular situation. It is not a matter of merely basking in the sunshine of of theories but you must also have a way of dealing with that particular situation practically. The Government is aware of the nutritious value of milk and the Department of the Interior has already granted permission for the sale Inside the Transkei of milk produced outside the Transkei. This has become necessary a s there has been a shortage of milk of in the Transkei due to persistent drought conditions . The dairy schemes within the Transkei have had a very difficult time . The Department of the Interior has further indicated tto a large producer of skimmed milk outside the Transkei that it is in favour of importing skimmed milk
419.
provided certain dairy standards are adhered to. In the light of the remarks and explanations I have made I am convinced that the hon. member will understand that we agree , but that for practical purposes the amendment must be put as I will move it. The proposed amendment is as follows :-
depots , but the moment you talk of establishing milk depots you presume that there is a supply of milk. You presuppose that the supply of milk is there , is that so ?
That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and substituted by the words : "the establishing of milk depots solely dependent on supplies from outside the Transkei is , for economic reasons , not feasible at this stage" .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Ithought you were very serious . Now , look, if you say the milk depots must be there , where are you going to get the milk? (Interjections ) No, you know nothing about farming .
MR. S. MOSHESH : I second the amendment.
MR. MGUDLWA: For example , at Mount Pleasant there are those....
MR. MGUDLWA: There is no presupposition at all.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , a compromise is always the best solution between two extremes . This reminds me of a Latin writer who wrote these words : "Cur non a me lacrimis movebatus , O crudelissime ?" (Laughter) It means : "Why are you not moved by my tears , you most cruel ? " The hon. the Minister of the Interior said things that are mutually exclusive . To me it appears that he was hunting with the hounds and running with the hare. Surely , I thought that in fact the House would be ad idem in so far as this motion is concerned.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR :
All
right, grant that, but there must be an organisation there so that there is a supply of milk which can be channelled to the depot, but what arrangements have you made so far ? (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. MGUDLWA : Mr. Chairman, there is need for these milk depots and I am sure we are all unanimous on this point. We shall not go to Maclear and Elliot and Ugie .
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : We are. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : fectly correct.
But the amendment now MR. MGUDLWA : seems as if it is seeking to negate the....
MR. MGUDLWA : We ought to rear milk Cows such as we already have . With these words I strongly support this motion.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : No , it does not. It is a matter of practical difficulties and we cannot be general when we negotiate with the Republican Government. It depends on what ways and means we have.
MR. C. DABULA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the amendment. True enough, the motion is in order but the conditions are adverse . Firstly, if milk depots are to be established milk cows must be introduced so that a good supply of milk is ensured. It serves no good purpose , when people rear scrub animals , to start milk depots . This indicates that if the Transkei establishes a milk depot the Government will be forced to import milk from the Ciskei . The agricultural scheme in Tsolo cannot supply the whole of the Transkei . The idea of establishing milk depots is putting the Government in difficulties because you made a request for the improvement of livestock. It is necessary that the children should be provided for and also that people should assist the Government.
MR. MGUDLWA: In accordance with the doctrine of reason your explanation is unacceptable to me because it is not reasonable . Bona fide ! I don't think it is even bona fide - I think it is mala fide. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Fortunately I happen to know Latin and I do not think there is much difference between mala and bona. MR. MGUDLWA : from cheese .
It is different as chalk is
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : depends on who says it.
Per-
It
13 MR . MGUDLWA : You can eat cheese but you cannot eat chalk. You can write with chalk but you cannot write with cheese . (Laughter) I do not think this amendment is acceptable. There is something foolish in it. We would like these milk depots to be established , particularly by the Transkei. Dependence on outside supplies does not come into it at all. Do away with Jabulani brewing and put in its place the supply of milk because the poor children we have now are as a result of malnutrition.
MR. K.M. GJZANA: the feeding scheme ?
Isn't milk provided in
MR. DABULA : There was no milk provided at the time I was a school -teacher. I left What we did have was teaching in 1963. skimmed milk which has no cream . MR . GUZANA: Hasn't skimmed milk got all the vitamins ? MR. DABULA: There are no vitamins at all in skimmed milk. People should also assist the Government, particularly when the Government says there is not enough money. The
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: With your permission, the motion asks that the Government should consider establishing milk
420 .
regional and tribal authorities should come to As far as the the Government's assistance . clinics were concerned , dried milk was ordered for these clinics. Up to date we are still assisting the clinics in this regard . We don't come and make requests from the Government. We order it from outside the Transkei although we When the have to meet all the expenses . Government states that this matter is under consideration it is the duty of this House to assist the Government. I am sorry to hear you saying that the Government is unwilling to give consideration to this , because not long ago when the Government wanted to raise money by way of taxes you also squealed . We can assist the Government by acquiring the cows which produce the best quality milk. Each home ought to have at least one milk-cow for its own use . The Government is prepared to assist the people but if each home had one cow it would be of great assistance . I would advise the hon. Mr. Majija to go home and sell all his scrub animals and replace them with good milk- cows , then the children will be well fed . I have never opposed the motion but the Government at present is not in a position to carry this out. I therefore associate myself with the amendment . Let us go back to our homes and improve our health by buying good milk- cows.
that Jabulani depots be turned into milk depots , because milk feeds and nourishes the body, whereas Jabulani kills the people . We appeal to the Government and we hope they will be unanimous in the establishment of these milk depots . To say we have not a sufficient supply of milk cannot be entertained because there are people elsewhere who have sufficient and they are producing this milk at very low cost in order to enable people all over the country to purchase it. This is a very important matter which the Government ought to take special note of, especially in the interests of public health. We have the Kupugani depots which are trying to supply the people of the Transkei with nutriWe ought to communicate with tious foods. these Kupugani depots and find out ways and means whereby health-giving foods can be supplied to the people . I hope this motion will be accepted with this amendment. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
The debate was adjourned . The
adjourned
until 2.15 p.m.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the establishment of milk depots in the Transkei was resumed .
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak on this very important motion suggesting the establishment of milk depots . The mover spoke clearly on this matter and the hon. Minister replied likewise in clear terms . However , he avoided a very small point and we do not understand just why he moved this because the motion seeks the establishment of milk depots ..
MR. S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the amendment to this motion and in so doing I am merely supporting the Government side because we are in full agreement that the intention behind this motion is a sound one . It is regrettable that you want the Government to say they will undertake this when you know they have not the funds to meet such a commitment. If the Government says they are unable to undertake it then you will turn round and say it is a Government that cannot be trusted. If the Government promises to do certain things then the Government must carry them out. This shows clearly that what the hon. the Minister of Agriculture said about thoroughbred animals is an important matter in regard to good milk- cows that will produce sufficient milk, because the milk we are hoping to get must come from outside the boundaries of the Transkei .
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Whilst the " hon. member is standing , the Minister replied in the manner he did because he did not want to mislead the House . It is not feasible at this stage and that means the principle has been accepted , but by the time the members of the House leave the Government must have given a clear indication of the matter , and the clear indication is that the matter is being handled but that at this stage it is not feasible.
MR. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, there are many things which are shelved because of the principle involved . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : for economic reasons .
Assembly
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon . member. The members must listen and stop talking amongst each other.
It is MR. MOSHESH : The transport will probably raise the cost of the milk from a possible 20 cents to 30 cents a gallon. That will raise the the cry that the cost of milk in the Transkei is higher than it is elsewhere . In moving this amendment the hon. the Minister of the Interior is well aware of the position and I think this amendment should be agreed to . In so doing he is actually supporting the mover of the motion.
MR . JAFTA : We always introduce motions and are well aware that they will not be put into effect immediately , but the spirit and the idea behind the motion is accepted. This question of milk is very important because there is need now among the children to have this provision made . To show that there is this need , church organisations are already undertaking feeding schemes for children. If the Government is aware of this need it will be the Government which will take steps to see that these depots are established in different parts of the Transkei. The poverty and famine which is rife in the Transkei makes this even more necessary . We would suggest
THE CHAIRMAN : I am sorry , I shall have to ask one of the members to march out if he continues this talking. MR. MOSHESH :
421 .
We ought to be unanimous
CHIEF NDAM ASE : Mr. Chairman , I am pleased to speak after the hon. member who has just sat down. It is a pity that when it comes to a matter of feeding our own children that the hon. members on the Government side should raise objections . I say so because when some food which was poisonous to the citizens of the Transkei was introduced that side supported the motion. I am referring to Jabulani . ( Interjections) The hon. the Minister of the Interior proposed an amendment when we were discussing the condition and feeding of children. Mr. Chairman, I am altogether against the amendment. I support the motion as moved by the hon. member for Engcobo . When the hon. Minister moved his amendment he moved it as one who had not read the original motion . In the original motion no mention was made of milk to be introduced from the Republic . The motion clearly states that milk depots should be established in the Transkei. The hon. members on the governing side say that the Government has not got sufficient funds to establish these milk depots in a fitting manner. I stand up to object to such foolish talk. Firstly, I wish to state that we have Jabulani in the Transkei though this Government has not sufficient funds to supply Jabulani. Jabulani is brewed in one centre and that is Butterworth.
in supporting the hon. the Minister of the Interior because he is fully aware of the drought situation in regard to the Transkei . I liken you to little children who, when their father tells them there is a famine in the country, say: How can there be famine when there is food in the house ? In this regard , therefore , you are like little children because the hon . Minister says there is not enough money and you say: How can that be? You mentioned Kupugani . Because your own father has not got these things and you find them elsewhere where you visit , you are surprised that your father does not introduce them into your home , behaving like little children. A child who sees one family eating meat tells his father also to have meat in the home , whereas the father is fully aware that he cannot afford to buy meat for his home. When he has funds he will buy the meat. You want your father to be a liar who promises he will give you sweets when he has not got the money to buy them . Be satisfied with what the Government tells you and wait and see how long it will be before you are provided with this, then you can say: How long have we waited ! After a year or two when you realise nothing has happened I would like you to remember what was said by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture a couple of days ago. He encouraged us to grow vegetables for the nourishment of our children and to rear thoroughbred milkcows , and that is the only thing that will bring an end to this malady among us , because the milk you buy cannot be compared with the milk from your own cows.
Hon. member , are you THE CHAIRMAN: discussing Jabulani now or the motion before the House ? Stick to the motion, please .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , we are talking about depots . We have no other example of depots in the Transkei apart from Jabulani depots and I am only using that as an example. I am not discussing Jabulani itself. I say this Jabulani is conveyed from Butterworth to Idutywa and along the route the dogs are barking at this Jabulani. That state of affairs continues right up to Umtata . Still the dogs continue barking at it while it is on its way to Qumbu . The inference is that in the same way milk can be brought into the Transkei but in so far as milk is concerned we have all the necessities in the Transkei . I am referring to those who have cattle and not those who have just been given one or two animals . Before you buy any beast you first consider whether that beast would give you sufficient return and whether you will be able to feed it properly . The first thing to consider if you are a breeder is the grass on the veld. Any other feed which you grow in your lands is only to supplement the natural feed, which is grass . I want to draw the attention of the governing side to the fact that we have sufficient grazing grounds in the Transkei where any milk- cow bought can be placed in these commonages . To show that we have enough grazing ground, some of the land is used to grow tea and coffee . (Interjections ) One hon. member has asked if I do not want tea to be grown. If he has a kraal of his own I would ask him what gives better nourishment - tea or milk to his family. We should not be led astray by this amendment when we have moved a motion to the effect that we should have milk to provide for the young . I have nothing further to add to what I have already stated . If I do so I will be talking to people who are senseless . At
OPPOSITION MEMBER : What is the difference ?
MR . MOSHESH : I shall explain to you what the difference is . The milk that you buy sometimes has a little water added to it by the seller to make it go a little further and to ensure that we do not get any diluted milk like that we have properly trained inspectors to test the quality of the milk sold. We in the Transkei have not got such inspectors . Even if we are given skimmed milk in place of Kupugani we would continue to regard it as good milk, whereas if we were to accept the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior we would be assured that he would carry this out and provide for inspectors to see that the milk is of good quality. I further thank the mover of this motion for realising that the people are suffering as a result of lack of nutritious food , especially amongst the young. He showed us pictures of children who are suffering from lack of proper nutrition. I appeal to the whole House , therefore , unanimously to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior and should he fail to carry out what he has promised then we can say he is not a trustworthy Minister. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak immediately after the last speaker who is from Durban. GOVERNMENT MEMBER : We have no members from Durban here .
THE CHAIRMAN: Is there any member from Durban, hon member? 422.
Cicira there are many farms where cattle can be bought and that would be a beginning. Whenever something is begun it does not imply that such a scheme would be applied to all the districts of the Transkei. Such a scheme could be started in one district, say in Umtata, and as the number of milk cows increase they can then be transferred to other districts , even if they do what is always being suggested and start first with those areas which have been rehabilitated. Mr. Chairman, I stand in support of the original motion and I hope that this House will realise the necessity for feeding our children with milk instead of being told in this House that there is a surplus in our budget.
rate development.
( Laughter and interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : I hope you are not going to discuss separate development . MR. MNYANI: Give me a chance to explain myself, Mr. Chairman. I am going to discuss the reason why milk is scarce . As I grew up in this town the town was surrounded by farmers. These farmers brought milk into the town. On account of this policy the farmers were bought out by the Government as they had to leave , to such an extent that the townspeople have no milk at all. They have to go to Maclear to get their milk supplies. I blame the Transkei Government for the shortage ofmilk, because this Government has no system for what it is proposing to do.
CHIEF S.N. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when I listened to the mover of the motion he said that formerly there was sufficient milk for the children. When he made that statement did he take into account that the population was not as great as it is today ? When he says a number of depots should be established , will he be prepared to wait until such time as we shall be in a position to do so? He mentioned milk being introduced from Komga and Ugie. If he goes to those places he will find that all their milk is taken straight to the creamery. He also stated that people are not forced to sell their milk in a particular place. They sell it there because it pays better. Why do they want to kick against the amendment of the hon. Minister? The hon. members of the Opposition The seem to be contradicting one another. hon. chief from Nyandeni stated that in his area they have plenty of milk. Did he refer to only the area from which he comes , or about the Transkei as a whole? Ifhe was making reference to the Transkei as a whole the Transkei has not yet reached that standard.
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member. There is too much talking in that corner. MR. MNYANI : Instead of this Government encouraging the Black people to occupy those farms they introduced a certain tribe from Gqogqora and trees were grown there because they wanted to establish a factory. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : milk.
Talk about
THE CHAIRMAN: Please come to the motion, hon. member. MR. MNYANI : This factory is not able to supply milk, however. It is stated that there is not sufficient money. The hon. Minister stated that there was no money and we have to reply to that. These Ministers want to go on visits to the Republic ... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : motion.
CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question from the hon. member? Did I speak about the cattle of Libode or Nyandeni? Did I not say that the Government of the Transkei has cattle?
Come to the
MR. MNYANI : ...and all along they use money for their travels , whereas this money could be used to buy milk. It is hard to believe Instead of buying that there is no money . milk they are building a huge building for the Department of Justice.
CHIEF JUMBA: Mr. Chairman, in fine I say that preparations should be made by us. The hon. chief says there is plenty of grass at Nyandeni . Will he be satisfied if in summer there will
THE CHAIRMAN : That is enough. Sit down.
be plenty and in winter there will be starvation? Or will he agree with us when we say that for this year and the coming year we should make preparations so as to be in a position to feed these animals ? If he states on the other hand that we should have camps , one camp to relieve He made the other, then I agree with him. reference to the growing of tea and phormium tenax, but we will not go to the extent of making comparisons in regard to the sale of tea and coffee and phormium tenax. I shall confine my remarks to milk. In fine, I would request the hon. chief from Nyandeni that we should agree and accept the amendment by the hon. Minister.
CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman , I stand up to support the amendment by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. In his opening remarks he stated that this side of the House is not opposed to the idea of this motion but because at the present time the milk will have to be imported from outside the Transkei the Government is not ready. The hon. member who has just sat down compelled the Chairman to say he was out of order , and it was because he maintained that the shortage of milk in the Transkei was due to the policy followed by this Government. Being a member who is opposed to the granting of rights to the Bantu people in this country I think he was not wrong in what he said. I am a member of the Government side and a strong supporter of the Transkei Government. I believe that as a result of this policy we are being given an opportunity to run our government according to our wishes . We are
MR. B.S. MNYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am pleased to have this opportunity of speaking on this motion as it is a most important motion dealing with the feeding of children. The reason why milk is scarce in the Transkei is due entirely to the policy of sepa-
423.
MR. KUTU: There is not a single person who has a brain no bigger than a chicken's .
appealing to the Government to supply us with milk but there is nothing to show which is our own effort in providing for ourselves . The Government takes every pain to advise the Transkei Government as well as the members of the Opposition. There is nothing they are prepared to accept, except to oppose everything that is done while they cannot do anything themselves , because even now we have had a motion encouraging the people to rear thoroughbred milk- cows which would be of great economic help to the people . We have a member in this Assembly who is helping several hospitals by supplying them with milk which is indicative that we also , if we follow the advice of the Government, can be of help to our own country. With these few remarks , Mr. Chairman, I support the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order. Sit down. CHIEF JOZANA : I am particularly happy because this hon. member is opposed to rehabilitation in his area of Engcobo . I am happy because the people of Engcobo listening to him will agree that he has accepted rehabilitation because he now maintains that the Government must supply milk, whereas he himself opposes the acquisition of thoroughbred animals . The scrub cows of Engcobo produce as much milk as the goats in Umzimkulu area and now he wants us to encourage the people to rear these scrub animals . I do not know whether you are aware that a good milker will produce a bucketful of milk in the morning as well as in the evening, and we are not going to waste time on the people who are lazy and don't want any progress. Milk-cows cannot be reared by a person who lives here only temporarily and then goes to Johannesburg. They want people who have the proper mind to bring up their children, Rehabilitate your areas if you want the Government to assist you. I will not even speak to a person who only has a goat. This is a sensible Government which wants to spend money sensibly. Why must you rear scrub animals and then turn round and ask the Government to give you milk? I am speaking from experience as a stock breeder . Milk can only come from thoroughbred animals . If you come to me I will give you a can of milk in the morning and another in the evening to feed your children. ( Laughter) You are not even ashamed to see the children of this area going about with lean , under-nourished bodies . (Interjections ) Let us forget Jabulani and discuss the question of milk. Indeed, we cannot have milk unless we rehabilitate and fence in the grazing areas . You can only get milk from a cow which has good grazing and not in a barren area such as yours. I am referring particularly to the mover of this motion. You cannot tell me anything about milk.
MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon, members , I stand up to support the original motion. We have visited various places where these children are . In some other countries , especially in the towns , children are provided with milk and butter to ensure good health because we African people , for lack of proper food, have always been victims to TB and other diseases . During the drought the conditions worsened because we bought mealies , and having absolutely nothing else we ate dry mealies . That is why we emphatically request the Government to be sympathetic towards us , because these children attend school and they come home hungry and we have no means of making any provision for them for we are also starving. We beseech the Government to ask on our behalf for money from where they usually obtain such assistance so that the Government will be in a position to buy milk in order to save the children from this dire starvation, so that our children shall be physically healthy. When we see such pictures as we have been shown, we realise all the more that our children are starving. When you have in mind areas like the Bashee where it is extremely dry and the people have no cattle to plough their lands , all they can do is to inspan donkeys to go and get mealies from the store and the children are fed on those mealies . All they can provide for the children is porridge without milk. (Interjections) Even if powdered milk is bought from Johannesburg the Government should make such requests . Some of the fathers have absconded and left their children , and during this drought and period of starvation some of the old people have not even been able to get old-age pensions . We request the Government to assist us in this regard so that our children are provided with milk. I will not be lengthy because much has been said by other speakers .
THE CHAIRMAN: address the Chair .
CHIEF JOZANA : I am being disturbed , Mr. Chairman, by this Jabulani member. (Laughter) Some people take cooked mealie-meal , mix it with "amarewu" and call it milk. If you have been living on poor food all the time and then turn round and ask the Government for money for milk you are talking nonsense . Only sensible people can rear proper milk-cows because they are delicate animals . You must grow feed for them and they must be given a good grazing area. I am referring to the Umzimkulu area where people can rear their families on milk. We shall not accept that this Government should spend money just because of the lazy people. The hon. Minister says when the time has come and the money is available we will make provision for this and if the mover of this motion were sensible he would withdraw it because they are merely trying to waste more time.
CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman, in supporting the amendment let me say it is a pity such an important motion should be brought before the House by people whose brain is no bigger than that of a chicken a person who is just like a baby beginning to grow teeth. MR. G.G. KUTU: Chairman...
THE CHAIRMAN :
The hon. member must
On a point of order, Mr.
What is out of order ?
CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE :
424.
Mr. Chairman and
Government does have the money . Even now there is enough money to pay home guards R9,000 and these home guards are well developed and healthy men as compared with the sickly children. (Interjections ) That particular money can be used in the purchase of milk and they should desist from the habit of saying there is no money . The hon. Mr. Dabula stated that skimmed milk has no food value whatsoever. I wish to state that these ignorant people should stop trying to tell people things about which they know nothing. He was a teacher but I do not know what he taught to the children because he himself knows nothing.
hon. members , I am not going to be lengthy but I want to make this point clear before this question is concluded. Whilst the hon. the Minister of the Interior spoke on behalf of this motion before he produced his amendment, as soon as he moved his amendment it became clear that he was discussing this on political lines . It THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : became clear that he was a practical man. CHIEF MAJEKE : In any soccer match you find there is one man who is lazy and as soon as he gets the bali he just kicks it to someone else. He does not want to handle the ball even if it eventually lands in the goal. The important point (and there is only one point) is that the hon. Minister admitted that the milk is indeed needed in the Transkei . This motion asks that It does milk depots should be established.
THE CHAIRMAN : Don't be personal. MR. MAJIJA: I want to say that skimmed milk has mineral salts , proten, vitamins and water. Those things are all needed by the human body. Our children are dying now they are not waiting for time to come. I have shown you pictures of the children who are dying now. It is a matter of emergency .
not say it should be done overnight and that the following morning this milk depot should be established . Now, the hon. Minister is dreaming that this milk is going to be obtained from the Republic . It would appear that they nurse fears of the Republic, I don't know why. He says first of all that negotiations should be carried out or that we should wait. All he has achieved is to say something by word of mouth and his amendment differs totally from what he said. He only wants to say at a later stage that this motion was never accepted . I have already said I was not going to be lengthy. If the Government does not oppose this motion, in as far as a great deal has been said by the hon. members on that side in their own verbosity, they should support it and drop the amendment. THE CHAIRMAN: mover to reply.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS :
Yes , in Biafra.
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Alan Paton had this to say on malnutrition: " Every great religion, every great system of ethical thought teaches us that the needs of others have everything to do with us. " That was a wise saying so that when we have enough we must not forget about those who have nothing. We should get the money that is used by the XDC for the brewing of Jabulani in order to buy milk. Kupugani has demonstrated the selling of foodstuffs at reasonable prices which the people can afford. We then beseech the Government not to say "at some future date " , but to act immediately.
I shall now call upon the
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the matter we are discussing is of the utmost importance . When a child sees the house on fire he usually laughs because a child has no understanding of what the extent of the damage may be . On the other hand, an adult knows how much damage can be caused by fire to furniture, money and anything else in the house. I shall not worry much over the statement made by the hon. member for Umzimkulu , Chief Jozana , because some of the members found themselves in this Assembly as nominated members and not elected . They boast of the cattle and arable allotments they own. There is money in this country and the Government has money . There is milk in the Transkei and the Government is able to buy milk. There is milk at Esinqumeni and at Simasa . Though we have not fenced in Engcobo there is milk to be had. At Munyu I saw four women inspanned to a cultivator because of the fact that there are no cattle, although that area is rehabilitated and fenced in. (Interjections ) What I want to say is that it is not the fences which bring the rain and in Engcobo village there is milk which is usually sold outside the boundaries of the Transkei . (Interjections)
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : But the hon. member is not saying " Now" . MR. MAJIJA: In so saying , Mr. Chairman, I move the adoption of my motion. THE CHAIRMAN : The question is a motion by the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. C. Ndamse . I shall put the question that the words sought to be deleted should be deleted. The words were deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment. The motion as amended : " That inthe opinion of this Assembly the establishing of milk depots solely dependent on supplies from outside the Transkei is , for economic reasons , not feasible at this stage" was carried. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 13th June , 1969. FRIDAY , 13th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
MR. MAJIJA: I have already stated that this
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ANNOUNCEMENT
like to speak briefly on points I noted as I studied this picture . I personally do not know why you have put in the leopards because the significance of this coat of arms is Unity is Strength and the coming together of the people indicated thereon. I am not aware that there is any tribe among the African people who uses leopard as a significant animal in its customs . There are people who use the elephant as their totem and others who use the lion. I have never heard of any using the leopard in a similar matter. Further, a mealie - cob is shown on this coat of arms. We have not at any time really proved conclusively that we are the best producers of maize , because the mealies we use in these territories are imported from outside the Transkei. Then, as regards the basket on the top, I notice there are two aloes but I do not know what we use the aloe for and what our pride is in the aloe . I have not much to say but I am merely pointing out these things because there has already been agreement on the design ofthis coat of arms.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the honourable the Commissioner-General has kindly invited the members of this House to a braaivleis on the 17th June , 1969, at 5 p.m. at Abraham's Kraal. I will appeal to the members of the Assembly to please show courtesy to the honourable the Commissioner-General because he incurs a great deal of expense in providing tea, etc. , for the members . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. REFORT : SELECT COMMITTEE ON COAT OF ARMS THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether it will not be appropriate for the members of the committee to sit together when they submit this report and if you agree , Mr. Chairman , I would request that they come to this side to the Minister's benches .
Agreed to. MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I referred to these leopards the other day when we were discussing this and you stopped me. I pointed out that it was a significant thing that we have three animals here which we could not put into one kraal without much trouble ensuing. A leopard and large stock are not friends , but enemies . I went further to ask where the four legs of this ox were and where the important parts of the body were , seeing we were only given the skull . However , as the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is on this committee I shall not be very critical . We have always been cheated in this country because whatever is brought to us we never have an opportunity to study. I am merely hoping that the beast , of which the face only is shown here , has a body following behind. ( Laughter) Coming to the mealie - cob , Mr. Chairman , the type of mealie - cob show here is the kind that we reap when we have had a drought . It does not appear to be a cob harvested during a good season. Going on to the aloes I saw these aloes for the first time when I was at Lovedale and I asked what kind of tree it was . I was told it was an aloe and that it was sweet to eat , but I found a very bitter plant. (Laughter) I was told that this aloe grows in drought- stricken areas and I do not know whether anything growing in drought- stricken areas is suitable for the Transkei. Then we have this motto " Unity is Strength" and I accept that as indicating that together we will live and from unity will come strength.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the following members of your committee met on the 12th June , 1969 , in the Chief Minister's office : The Chief Minister , the Minister of the Interior, the Chairman of the Legislative Assembly (Mr. M.H. Canca) , the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. K.M.N. Guzana) , Mr. N.V. Reve and Mr. J.M. Dumalisile . After discussing the proposed design the committee unanimously recommended that the Transkei Legislative Assembly approve of the proposed design. I therefore lay upon the table the report of the Select Committee on the Transkeian Coat of Arms which unanimously accepted that this Assembly approve of the design and I accordingly move that this House adopt the design for a coat of arms which was laid before the Legislative Assembly on the 27th May, 1969. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond the motion. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I realise that our hands are tied now in this connection. All we can do is to point out aspects that we do not approve of, because we are informed that the committee is unanimous on this point and we feel that whatever criticisms we level against this will be directed against ourselves. Something which I totally disapprove of is this beast, this cow, because the picture here does not show in any way a resemblance to a bull. Even if I live in the municipal location I have occasion to see bulls and cows . When we visit the dipping tank we see bulls there and we realise they are bulls and not something whose ears are hanging down and which looks very stupid . If it was not possible to show the proper head of the bull they should have shown the head of a ram whose horns would have been indicative that it was a Further, the ram is more ram . (Laughter)
PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like clarification on just one point as far as these leopards are concerned. This is what I want to know: Whether they are both female or both male , or whether one is male and the other female . I would prefer it to be a male and a female , or both males . I cannot see any difference . There should be some difference to indicate the distinction. If they are both males that would be all right, because that would indicate strength, but there should be an indication of the difference. I wish to have a reply as far as that point is
powerful at times than the bull . My hon. chief here has already indicated that tall people are sometimes overpowerd by small men. (Laughter)
MR . N. JAFTA:
Mr. Chairman, I would 426.
concerned, in order to be able to determine our strength. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE :
we have two leopards , indicating that if they are united they would defeat the mealie- cob. (Laughter) Leopards do not live on mealies . As far as I know they live on meat. Referring to the bull, it would have been better if you had shown the bull in the portion where the basket is placed, instead of having a cow lower down which would mean that the two leopards together would defeat the cow, and then you could put the aloes where you have put the head of the ox. Personally, I regard the leopard as an animal who changes his colour , which indicates to us that this Government will continue changing . We are not sure that that is the case . Then at the bottom you have the motto "Unity is Stregth" . It would not have mattered if you had indicated just a bundle of wood. Now you say "Unity is Strength" although we are different people in the Transkei and even in this Government. Perhaps because the TNIP had a bigger majority in the last election you will also indicate that we are in agreement.
Mr. Chairman...
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Did you want to ask another question, because I think the committee might want to reply. MR. K.M. GUZANA : we shall reply at the end.
No, Mr. Chairman,
CHIEF NDAMASE : I would like to begin with the ox, Mr. Chairman. We are deceived here because in the notes it is indicated that this is a bull and I note that the people who are responsible for this picture have never known what a bull looks like . In this picture there is no indication whatsoever that this is a bull. It would be better if the whole bull were shown and we would be able to see . The people who come from outside the Transkei , when told this is a bull , will immediately say the Transkei people are foolish. It seems it would have been more proper to have had this picture showing something like a bull. Referring to the leopards , I think it was an unfortunate thing to put leopards in the coat of arms for the Transkei. I have always thought the people of the Transkei were brave people and bravery is indicated by a lion, say, or a tiger . The leopard is a very cowardly animal and if you frighten it it runs away and climbs up a tree. I say this because I have hunted on the borders of Zululand and Swaziland. You just buy the skins of the leopard but I have had occasion to shoot and kill them. By this I mean that the leopard seems to be a most unsuitable animal for the coat of arms as compared with the lion or the tiger. I shall not refer to the mealie-cob , because comments have already been made about it, but in connection with the cogwheel I think that is quite suitable as we are now using more civilized methods of agriculture , but the people who use a cog would not recognize this . The teeth ofthe cog are sharp and pointed , so as to be able to grip one another. This is one other point which needs to be put right in this coat of arms . As regards the other symbols , the members have already discussed them.
CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I also have a few comments to make. The picture given here is neither a bull nor a cow, but that of an ox. Anyone who rears stock will readily see that from the very shape of the horns this is an ox. I think it would have been better to have the design clearly and definitely that of a bull. Coming to the leopards about which the hon. the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland has commented, we have attended circuses where we see different kinds of animals and there we have seen a lion and a lioness together , a tiger and a tigress together , but from the design it is not possible to say which is male or which is female . I think this should be put right. As far as the maize is concerned , there is nothing whatsoever to indicate that it is maize. To me it looks like a school badge. A mealie- cob should be distinguishable . We are farmers , after all. MR. G.G. KUTU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we Tembus know a leopard and a leopard is the female of a tiger. (Laughter) You have never come across a male leopard . We in the Transkei would like to see a coat of arms for posterity depicting a male and a female , and then some other animal above . Here in the Transkei the design is not acceptable . On top of the design is a container from which one can drink Jabulani and it would have been better if a picture of a lion had appeared there , or a picture of a bull . In the design we are shown a picture of an Afrikander cow which means that here in the Transkei we are merely females and not bulls , whereas our wish is that we should have bulls just like other races . No one will
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I should also like to say a few words in connection with this coat of arms placed before the House . Firstly, as regards the colour it is indicated that as we have the red, green and white colours on the flag, these colours will aso be used in the coat of arms . It would have been better if the picture shown here had those colours included , instead of being There does not seem to in black and white. be any reason why the colours are not shown so that we would be able to see exactly what we are talking about. As far as the flag is concerned , we did not all approve of the red colour because not all the citizens of the Transkei use this red ochre. Further, two leopards are shown here and I think this has been a copy of the coat of arms of the Republic where we have two springboks facing a lion, indicative of the motto " Unity is Strength" - namely, that if these two springboks are united then they can easily defeat the lion. Here
accept pictures of a female when the counterpart is a bull. I suggest that the container at the top of the design should be removed - this can which contains Jabulani which we do not want in the Transkei. It would have been better if they had put a bull's head at the top and in the position of the two female leopards a female leopard on one side and a tiger on the other should have been depicted , instead of two female leopards , because that will tend to make us look weak as a nation. As it is already we are a weak nation and we don't want to be a weaker nation. We
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had been entered into before this tentative design was placed before this House and the special body in South Africa dealing with all heraldic work has had to make suggestions so that there is no conflict of design between what you have before you and any other design already registered with them , and thus previous designs by the Government have been rejected as clashing with other coats of arms which are already registered with the Institute of Heraldry. Thus the animal , for instance , facing us in the centre had previously been a crane and this was turned down and substituted by the animal facing us in the centre of the shield, the purpose being to eliminate possibilities of confusion with other coats of arms already registered and to give distinctiveness to the one that we have before us. Now, let us deal with some of the points which have been raised. This is by way of explanation. First of all, the bull - there was a fair amount of discussion in the committee about the face of the bull and the symmetry of the horns , and the impression created in the mind of the onlooker. We were advised , and we had to accept this , that the chevron created a problem. Now, the chevron is what I might call the roof - what one might relate to the roof of the house in this coat of arms . You will find that from that "V" which is placed upside down there are outgrowths on either side. Now, it was explained to the committee that if the horns of this bull were to be upright, as the horns of the bull should be , they would pierce the chevron and go into it. When the horns were dropped and we saw a diagram with the horns dropped, it was apparent that that weakened the effect of its weapons of defence and offence , and the committee felt that there should be some , shall I say , bull-like distinctiveness given to that head and that will be done.
also want virility and should have a bull which will symbolize our nation. Where you have only females no progeny will be expected and you can only have progeny when you introduce a male. As a growing State we do not want to be made female . THE CHIEF MINISTER : nonsense.
You are talking
MR. KUTU: A leopard is female wherever you go and the leopard's sire is the tiger. How can we have two females? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I am wondering if the House has not had sufficient discussion on this, so that we can call upon the committee to give their comments about the difficulties I shall allow only one more of members ? speaker. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I see an aloe in the picture here which is used when we want a baby to stop sucking from the mother. An aloe is bitter and we do not want anything bitter, but only something which is good and which indicates progress . This aloe has been placed next to a beaker of Jabulani . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : out of order, now. MR. P.N. NKOSIYANE :
I think you are
Mr. Chairman...
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. I have already indicated that I will allow one speaker only. I shall call upon the committee to make their comments . MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman, may I put a question before they stand up? I am not discussing. Mr. Chairman, in all this brainwork that has been done to meet the psychological requirements of our people as Africans, is it not possible that they replace the leopards by tigers and then put in a full picture of a bull in between, change the basket and put it where the present picture of the bull is? That is my question. Is it not possible to do that?
MEMBERS: Hear , hear. MR. GUZANA: Now, Sir, you have talked about the leopards . Well, first of all , the question is whether we have a female leopard and a male leopard, or female leopards or male leopards . Now, the sex of these designs is a matter which will come as a physchological reaction subjectively to the picture so that, in order to avoid offence , neither is it sought to say the one on the left is male and the one on the right is female, or vice versa ; or that both are males or both are females ; so that the onlooker can, to satisfy his own subjective thinking , give them the sex he would like symbolized by the two animals . So if you want them males , you can have that; if you want them females , you can have that; if you want male on the left and female on the right , you can have that; if you want male on the right and female on the left you can have that. The idea is that nothing is imposed on your own mind but that your own mind gives the sex to the two animals . Then here is another aspect of the matter: In all animals the male is much bigger and sturdier than the female , and if we were to depict objectively for your eyes to see objectively a male and a female leopard then we would lose balance and symmetry. I think the coat of arms would limp either to the left or to the right, according to whether we put male to the left or male to the right. Now, Sir , the question has
MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have been directed.... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
Just a minute .
MR. GUZANA: There is anhon. member who is walking up and down. I don't know whether his business is relevant to the House or not. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. members be seated and listen to the comments of the committee. MR. GUZANA : I am happy to be able to speak today to this House without the cloak of my political convictions. I merely have to reply to questions put and suggestions made by members of the House to the committee , to which I was elected by this House as a member. First of all , as members of the committee we were informed that quite a lot of correspondence
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mealie- cob has just been wrenched from that basket and placed here ; and if we were to take the mother who brings the green mealies home, she places the basket down and takes out a few mealies and gives them to the children and says : Go to the fire and roast yourself some mealies . Thus , as this committee has suggested , if the basket brings wealth of all kinds home to the Transkei then we must show you the wealth, and the maize- cob is merely symbolic symbolic of things that are eaten to build the body , symbolic of things still inside the basket to be pulled out at a later stage. And would it not be improper to make this maize - cob symbolic of Emigrant Tembuland mealies or Nyanda mealies or Maluti mealies or Qaukeni mealies ? None of us should be able to claim it as our own, but rather as symbolic of all of us . Then we had the cog-wheel. Now, it has been suggested that the teeth of a cogwheel should be like the chevron - that is , sharp- edged at the outside extremities . Now, you get such a cogwheel in a fast-moving vehicle so that in changing your gears there is no grind at all when you move from low to second to top and , of course , the faster a vehicle travels the greater is the risk to life. Conversely the tractor, the Dieselengine locomotive , the train engine , will have these square cogwheels , the idea being strength , thoroughness , solidity and perfection . Now, we come down to the motto " Unity is Strength" , but before getting to that may I just make reference to a comment in relation to the positioning of the leopards and the bull , where a comparison was drawn between this suggested coat of arms It was and the Republican coat of arms. suggested that the springboks in combined effort might kill the lion , and it is suggested here that the leopards might not have an appetite for such a miserable animal as appears there , but the idea in a coat of arms is not to bring together motifs that are exclusive . Indeed, it seeks to suggest that だeven irreconcilable elements can be brought together and live together . Those leopards shall not destroy the bull , nor will the lion destroy the springboks . I am sure the hon. member who took a swipe at the motto was doing so in jest, although there is a certain amount of significance because when he said "inyanda" (a bundle of wood) he was not being parochial, but was seeking the idea that whenyou have a number of sticks together you have the bundle that you call " inyanda" . May it not be suggested that the word " imbumba" (oneness) is embracing the idea of bundle being one of many? Lastly, there was a question as to whether or not there could not be a rearrangement of the different symbols of the coat of arms . That would mean starting all over again anu having difficulties and yet we may also say that no one would reject the presence of enterprise in that direction. There are so many organisations that seek coats of arms that the field is open for exploration. ( Laughter) Mr. Chairman, I think I have covered all the points raised , unless I have missed anybody's comment. If the committee feels that I have misrepresented any of the ideas which were expressed at the committee , I stand corrected and would request them to excuse me . I want to say that I have spoken here as a committee member and not as a politician, and my finale is to close my mouth and
been asked: Why a leopard? I am reminded of the fact that even during the time of TranskeibanesTerritorial Authority members tended to favour the leopard- skin, and that chiefs installed at that time during the regime of the TTA had this leopard-skin used to enshroud them with authority and distinctiveness . Hence , again, the robes of the Chairman of this House are distinguished by a spot of leopard- skin on them. It is being suggested that the leopard is not a stronger animal or a self- recommending animal over and above a tiger, but let me say that by our own past acts all of us have preferred the leopard-skin as the symbolic representation of authority in the Transkei and this has been so from time immemorial. Now, the leopard: How does it recommend itself? There is that idiom in the English language which says a leopard cannot change its spots. ve Inoother words , symbolically the leopard- skin is distinctive of a quality which cannot be destroyed - a quality of permanence , a quality which is characterized by durability. Furthermore , the leopard is a swift and nimble animal and it cannot find difficulty in surmounting even the steepest cliff or in climbing the highest tree. Its movements are not as gawky as those of an ostrich but on the contrary are smooth, symmetrical, and the limb related to the body, the body to the head and the whole making music in movement. It therefore does not offend the idea of developing in a smooth, orderly fashion, no matter what the direction is , without causing offence . It has been suggested that we have the bull facing us and that it is hoped that the body is behind it. Now, if hon. members will look at that bull which faces us , and the background is given a green colour , then we see this animal revelling in the verdure of green-growing grass in the Transkei and so rich is the growth of the grass that it has covered all sits body and the bull only shows itself as being present by presenting its face, ( Laughter) so that this position does not offend at all. Indeed, it enhances the beauty of the coat of arms. There has been a complaint about the aloe. Now, the aloe is an indigenous plant of the Republic (I am not speaking of the Transkei) and therefore when I say "indigenous" it grows not only outside the Transkei but also inside the Transkei. When it is in bloom it bears a beautiful flower, but because it has a bitter juice it therefore ensures self-protection by repelling its enemies; so that we have the uniformity of growth represented by the aloe that grows everywhere in South Africa. We have the beauty of its flower which lights up kraal sites , stock kraals , garden lots in the spring of the year, and we have its bitterness which will repel anything that seeks to destroy it. Now, there is the basket against which there was comment. It is suggested that this can be used for consuming Jabulani; it can be used for drinking " amarewu " ; it can be used for bringing the harvest home. I would like us to associate with the basket this activity of harvesting for the home, the bringing of wealth of all kinds to feed the family. Now , you know that the ordinary basket is a somewhat rough and ready carrier, not very well and thoroughly made , but here the design is smooth and conveys solidity and permanence. Ladies and gentlemen, need I speak more? You have it before you. There is your basket and the 429 .
show you this (reproduction in colour of the coat of arms) . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. XELO : Mr. Chairman... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , this matter is no longer open for discussion. What remains now is that I want to put it to the House. The hon. the Chief Minister has moved the adoption of the coat of arms. Does the House agree? Agreed to unanimously . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that I have got to present the second reading of the Road Tax Bill I will move the adjournment of the House until 2.15 this afternoon. The Assembly adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION SECOND READING - TRANSKEIAN ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL, 1969 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : man and honourable members ,
Mr. Chair-
Cape Provincial Ordinance No. 1 of 1935, which the Government now wishes to amend in so far as it applies in the Transkei , provides for the payment of Transkeian Territories Road Tax by the owners of immovable property within the twenty-four districts described in the schedule to the said Ordinance . Bantu owners of immovable property are however exempt from payment of the tax by virtue of the fact that provincial councils did not have the power to impose direct taxation on Bantu persons , their land or their incomes , whilst the aforementioned Ordinance also has a provision which exempts them specifically from paying the Transkeian Territories Road Tax . The fact that only White property owners in the Transkei , who have no say in the Transkeian Administration, have to pay Road Tax to the Transkeian Government has given rise to severe criticism in certain quarters and representations are made from time to time to my department, the Cape Provincial Administration and the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development by private individuals , Village Management Boards, Chambers of Commerce , etc. to either abolish the Road Tax or to extend the provisions of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax to Bantu property owners also . Investigations carried out in 1964 revealed that the possible income from such a tax on Bantu property owners would be so negligible that it would at the time hardly have defrayed the cost of vaulations , collections etc. , because the majority of properties generally classified as Bantu properties were owned by bodies such as Churches, Welfare Societies , Educational Institutions , etc. , which are in any event exempt from payment of Road Tax, whereas properties owned by individual Bantu were few in number and widely scattered .
The position has now changed materially in that many Transkeian citizens have purchased properties like trading stations , houses in zoned areas , etc. , since 1964 and the time has come, Mr. Chairman, when there is no longer any excuse for the Transkeian Government not to treat all property owners alike by extending the provisions of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax to Bantu property owners . As the Cape Provincial Administration no longer derives any revenue from the collection of the Road Tax the Executive Committee has indicated a strong desire to repeal Ordinance No. 1 of 1935, especially as this Ordinance has now understandably become a source of embarrassment to the Province. However, in view thereof that the Transkei can ill afford to lose this source of revenue (at present plus -minus R90,000 p.a. ) my Department requested the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development to prevail upon the Provincial Administration not to repeal the Ordinance . The Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development is , however , ofthe opinion that if the road Tax is not to be abolished in the Transkei the least that can be expected is that it should be made applicable to Bantu owners of immovable property also.
The Cabinet subscribes to the views expressed by the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development especially as only the more well-to- do citizens of the Transkei will be affected if all owners of immovable property are required to pay the tax on their properties. I realise that the proposal to extend the provisions of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax to Bantu property owners may not be a popular one especially to those directly concerned . I trust, however, that this House will show that it is a responsible body by considering this matter objectively without bringing personal circumstances into consideration , that this measure will receive unbiased treatment and that the matter will be disposed of in a satisfactory and responsible manner using the interests of the Transkei as the only guideline . Members should realise that the Government will forfeit R90,000 p.a. in revenue if the Ordinance is repealed by the Cape Provincial Council as a result of our not being prepared to impose the tax also upon Bantu owners of immovable In such an event it can hardly be property. expected of the Republican Government to compensate the Transkei for the resultant loss of revenue . The Road Tax payable at present is no longer specifically utilized for road construction and it can therefore , for all practical purposes , be regarded as a tax on immovable property which accrues to the Transkeian Revenue Fund , which in turn is used inter alia for the construction of roads. The tax is not based on the income earned by a person but on the value of the immovable Road Tax is at present property he owns. 430 .
calculated at the rate of 5/8 cent for every rand of the valuation of such property and it is clear that the tax I intend to impose next year and which need not necessarily be the same as the existing Road Tax, will not place a heavy financial burden on, or cause undue hardship to , Bantu owners of immovable proFor example , at present rates , Road perty. Tax on a piece of land valued at say R500 amounts to only R3.12 per annum.
(ii) by the Legislative Assembly in so far as it applies in the Transkei proper. In order not to confuse the minds of members, I wish to make it clear that the proposed tax will apply to immovable property held on title. It does not refer to the homesteads which you put up on Government property. In other words , it will apply to the shop- owners in the rural areas, the farmers and the house -owners in the towns.
The Transkeian Road Tax Amendment Bill , 1969 , i.e. the Bill we are dealing with now, is not intended to impose the Transkeian Territories Road Tax as such on Bantu owners of immovable property. It is merely in anticipation of another Bill to be introduced next year to provide for a Road tax based on immovable property ownership . WO The main purpose of the amendment bill is, by extending the provisions of the present Ordinance , to make it possible for my Department in the interim to have valuations made of Bantu-owned properties in the rural areas , to include such properties in valuation rolls , to provide for the institution of valuation courts and to include the Bantu areas of Umzimkulu and Matatiele as well as all persons residing in these two districts are , in terms of Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 , at present exclude from the payment of Road Tax.
Mr. Chairman, Itrust that the aforementioned proposals will be accepted by this House and I now move that the bill be read a second time . THE MINISTER OF second, Mr. Chairman.
THE
INTERIOR:
I
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , allow me , Sir , to move an amendment to this motion, to the effect that all the words after "that" in the second last line be deleted and the following substituted therefor : "the bill be not proceeded with . " Mr. Chairman, hon. members , I am simply amazed at the iniquity which has been practised for the last six years on the White population of the Transkei in terms of Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 , when they continued to pay road tax which accrued to this Government when they had no representation whatsoever in this Government; when the road tax which was specifically imposed for the construction, reconstruction and maintenance of roads went into the Transkei Consolidated Revenue Fund as a general income to be applied incidentally on the maintenance of roads. I do not know what legal basis there was for this money to accrue to the Transkei In my view I feel that even at Government. this stage , even if we do not like it, we owe that money which has been collected in road tax since 1964 to the Cape Provincial Administration . If there is any justice at all we should mete it out even if it is to our disadvantage . Now , I am worried over the fact that the Government intends imposing a road tax on immovable property held under title deed by Africans in the Transkei. Our Government seems to have been bitten this session by a taxation bug and they cannot stop scratching here , there and everywhere for money, and here is a minority group of immovable property- owners finding them-selves laden with a tax which the majority of the citizens of the Transkei do not pay. One has the impression that this Government is discouraging people from owning immovable What is going to property in the Transkei . happein is that if I inherit any immovable property I become liable for a tax, whereas if I live in the rural areas I can avoid this tax . This additional tax does not take into account the income of people who are going to pay this tax, being an additional tax to other taxes already imposed . Not so long ago we dealt with a taxation bill which again throws the burden of taxation upon the higher income group (and I say the higher income group relatively speaking) and it means in effect that these people
It will, however, not be possible to ascertain to what extent individual Bantu owners of immovable property will be affected until valuations of their properties in the rural areas have been completed. Full details of the financial and other implications will, of course , be furnished to this Assembly next year when the contemplated bill is dealt with by the Committee of Ways and Means .
In order to impose the proposed road tax on all owners of immovable property in the Transkei ( i.e. a new tax) it is intended that :-
(a) legislation be passed during the next session of the Legislative Assembly for a road tax upon all immovable property within the Transkei (as described in section 2 of the Constitution Act) i.e. exluding the White spots , to be levied with effect from the 1st April , 1970 ;
(b) the State President be requested to proclaim (in terms of section 70 ( 3) of the Constitution Act) that the proposed road tax Act for 1970 shall also apply to all immovable property within the White areas where no Divisional Council , Road Board or Village Management Board imposing a road tax already exists , and (c) that Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 be repealed with effect from 1st April , 1970 , by (i) the Cape Provincial Administration in so far, as it applies in the White areas , and 431 .
say, a year or two, or three years. Is the XDC going to be liable to this Government for road tax in respect of the properties which are vested in it?
who have a low income compared with other racial groups , but a higher income compared with the peasant group of the Transkei , are becoming the group who are going to carry this Government financially.
GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Yes. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : salaries increased.
You want MR. GUZANA: Don't just say "yes" . You don't know, because we know that governments have certain exemptions in respect even of properties held for instance by the Provincial administration . The Provincial Administration is exempt from paying rates on property within municipal areas . You don't know that.
MR . GUZANA : We want salaries increased but it is no use taking the money from me in order to pay me. I am reminded of the lion to whom two cats came on appeal to have a loaf The lion of bread divided between them. immediately broke the loaf into two unequal This one piece is parts and then he said : bigger than the other; I shall bite off a piece in order to equalize the two parts. The result is that the half of the loaf from which a bite had been taken became smaller than the other one and so the lion took alternate bites , reducing the quantity of the bread until there was no bread to give to the two cats. (Laughter) It is no use saying we must tax the people in order to pay them , because you are robbing them by taxation. You are giving them back that money in salary . You tell them that you have increased their salary so they go into the next bracket of taxation and again you take it away from them. The people basically remain poor. This is a case of juggling money but with no benefit to the employed. Let us come back to this point: I say the comparatively high income group is going to find this a burden and when you consider that almost 99.9% of the Africans who buy immovable property have to go to the XDC to borrow money in order to buy the property, the cruelty becomes unbearable if a tax is imposed on them.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The land belongs to the Provincial Administration. How can they pay for their land? MR. GUZANA :
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : is going to pay.
The XDC
There is a great deal of MR. GUZANA : noise about the increase in the number of Africans who have acquired immovable property since 1964. What is the percentage increase in the number of people ? In terms of the numbers how many have acquired property to justify the imposition of this road tax? May I ask further what moral justification is there for this Government imposing a road tax when the provincial Administration is contemplating abolishing it? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is because they have no interest in it, because the Transkei is managing its own affairs .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The same applies to the White people. They borrow money in order to buy properties in town.
What is there to justify MR. GUZANA : that? You already have a revised taxation scheme which is going to give increased revenue to this Government,
MR. GUZANA : The difference is that the White man earns three or four times what the African earns .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : know that? It might be less .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , but we can make the tax next year to suit the African income .
MR. GUZANA :
How do you
If it were to be less the
Government would never have brought in the bill. (Laughter) What the Government loses on the swings it makes up on the roundabouts. If there is a very astute financial manipulator it is a government. They act on a man's purse like the mouse that acts on a bag of mealies. Nothing much is taken out at any one time , but the bag collapses eventually with no mealies in it.
MR. GUZANA : Now, you see, it is the sort of thing where the lion says to the lamb : Come in, the hole is big enough for you to come in and get warm; and then the lion warms himself up with a hot meal of lamb. (Laughter) What do you have in mind? What have you up your sleeve for next year ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : come next year.
We therefore want to know
who is going to be taxed whilst the property is in the hands of the XDC .
The bill will THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : But you want increased salaries.
MR. GUZANA: You want us to accept the principle that Africans who own property under title in the Transkei should be taxed so that next year you come and say we have already agreed to the principle of imposing a road tax. Now, I can see complications arising from this attempt. Property is bought over by the XDC to be held by the XDC until an African has come to the XDC to buy that property. The property remains in the hands of the XDC for, let us
MR. GUZANA : We have not yet had an intimation of the increased revenue that the Government will collect from this road tax imposed on African property- owners , so the Government is withholding motivation because it has no case to justify the imposition of this road tax . THE 432.
MINISTER OF FINANCE :
It is an
existing tax but paid by one section of the community only.
going to be more than it was when it says it is not going to be the same . ( Laughter) But suppose it remains at 5/8 cent - what is the immovable property-owner going to pay? We are not going to be deceived by the example of a property worth R500 and the owner paying a reasonable R3.12 in tax , because no immovable property is as cheap as that anywhere .
THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me , hon. member . Order, please. This is an important bill before the House and everyone must see that they are in a position to answer questions where possible . Carry on.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : R20,000 .
MR . GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, I feel that the Government has not placed all the facts before us and because they have not motivated the principle of extending taxation on to African property-owners the bill should not be proceeded with. There is a big hue and cry from the Government over the possible loss of R90,000 accruing from the road tax on European and Coloured property-owners in the Transkei . Now the Government may well feel concerned over that loss , but this Government has the power to make it possible for it to recover that income from Africans by allowing the rural African to own his property under title deed and then you can impose your road tax on all the Transkei citizens .
I won't even go so far as MR. GUZANA : that, because there is no African anywhere who can afford to own property to that value . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : is worth more than that.
My farm
And there are not many MR. GUZANA : farmers who have well- cushioned seats like the hon. the Chief Minister and most of us are sitting on very thorny seats indeed. On property valued at R2,000 the tax will be R12.48 . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It may be less than that.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We are coming to that.
MR. GUZANA : On R4,000 it will be R24-96 . In an urban area this is additional to the annual rates which on property valued at about R3,000 to R4,000 is about R60 , R65 or R70 a year. He still has to pay quarterly charges . Can this be described as a tax that will not place a heavy financial burden or cause undue hardship to the Bantuowners of immovable property who are a small number struggling to realise themselves in ownership of immovable property? It is being suggested that this amendment bill is put in in What a order to prepare for the next bill. colossal misuse of Legislative Assembly procedure ! (Laughter) Let us make a law now in order to establish machinery that we shall put into effect when we make a law next year. What is this ? It is intended that by reason of this bill the Government will be able to have valuations on property , put these on valuation rolls and introduce valuation courts . Why can't it do that when it legislates next year? These are the queer features which relate to the introduction of this bill and the oppressive nature of this tax which is going to fall upon the minority of the public that have moved me to move this amendment. Let me say this last word : Throughout the first Assembly the Opposition has never taken advantage of this unusual procedure . You can very well understand , therefore , that we feel very strongly about the Government taxing a minority amongst its citizens .
MR. GUZANA : Now, when you get there then you can justify the road tax, but not before. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We are taxing the rich at present . MR. GUZANA : It has taken you a long time to get there . Six years have gone by and the Opposition has been calling upon you to improve the rights of persons to immovable property in the Transkei .... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland has not said so yet.
MR . GUZANA: .... and then you might say : I am legislating on a matter which will affect the majority of the people in the Transkei and you don't single out those who have made sacrifices in order to acquire immovable property. It is suggested by the hon. the Minister of Finance that this road tax will not be a heavy financial burden. He concedes that it is going to be a financial burden (Laughter) He says it will not cause undue hardship but it will be a hardship . Let us see to what extent this will not cause undue hardship ; will not place a heavy financial burden on the owner of immovable property. He has , in order to draw us over to his side , suggested that the 5/8 cent tax on R1 valuation may be varied. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : that next year - we can vary it.
Put it at
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We are taxing the rich .
We can do
MR . GUZANA : If we are taxing the rich I suppose your rich are the poor of other societies.
MR. GUZANA : His very words are : " The tax need not necessarily be the same. "
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The tax need not be the same as for other societies , but it should be commensurate with their earnings.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That's right. MR. GUZANA : To what extent has previous legislation on taxation been commensurate with the income of the individual?
MR. GUZANA: When a Government says so with regard to financial matters , you know it is
433.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We are drifting towards that. We are coming to a time when the poor wil pay no taxes.
they talk about the question of taxation because, for instance , this amendment is being made to ordinance No. 1 of 1935 and the Europeans have been paying it ever since . They have never complained about it until now , as I understand it .
MR . GUZANA: We did find that your Taxation Bill will impose additional tax on people who would otherwise be exempt from income tax if they were to be assessed in terms ofthe Income Tax Act.
MR. GUZANA : about it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Never ! That is not true.
They have been complaining
MR. DYARVANE : No , they have not. As a matter of fact I know a European who has been paying this road tax because she had property and she was not even interested in the property, but she never complained about paying the road tax. The first time it is mentioned this tax will be imposed on the residents of the Transkei they start complaining about it.
MR . GUZANA: You have done that. A man earning R600 a year with four children and a wife would not pay a cent in income tax, but he has got to pay you something. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He would pay additional tax anyway .
MR. GUZANA : It is not only residents . It is for all owners of property under title .
MR. GUZANA: He will pay income tax in terms of your bill - that is the point . What I am saying to you is that you are shearing this sheep too close to the flesh and you are beginning to draw blood now. (Laughter) I can see no justification for this measure . I move that this bill be not proceeded with, Mr. Chairman, as an amendment to the motion by the hon. the Minister of Finance.
MR. DYARVANE : Well, there is no such thing as a poor man owning property. Once he has property he is a rich man. MR. GUZANA : is a rich man?
So if a man owns a car he
MR . DYARVANE : That is not fixed property . No one owning fixed property can be a poor man, So I think the hon. members should consider this question of taxation. It is not a plaything. The Government is not playing but it likes to save what it can when it can be saved. A beginning should be made now and not next year. I believe the hon. members have got the idea. As a matter of fact, we discussed it when we were debating the Taxation Bill. Some of the members said it was unfair to tax poor people. Now they say it is unfair to tax the rich people.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA: I second, Mr. Chairman. MR. M.E. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have noticed since I have been in this House that invariably the hon. members of the Opposition , though they deny it, are opposed to taxation whichever way it comes. I do not think they even like buying stamps from the post office. ( Laughter) Just now I do not understand the argument that the tax is being imposed upon a few fathers , instead of it being imposed even on the children. They want the children to die with the fathers. I know this is the Chamber in which to talk politics but I think it gives a bad impression to the outside taxpayers .
MR. GUZANA : I am glad you concede that even the Government members do not like this sort of thing. (Interjections) MR. DYARVANE : If they don't like it (and I may tell you, by the way, that some of them are members of the Government) .... (Interjections ) I wish the Opposition members would reconsider their decision to put in this amendment because I do not think you could be serious about it. I don't want to belabour the point but I wish the hon. members would be unanimous . This tax is going to enrich the Transkei.
MR. GUZANA: Are you trying to create an impression on the outside world ? What is this? This hon. member will have to take the bill through the committee stage. He should not be taking part in the debate . MR. DYARVANE: You see , the Government is like an army and an army moves on its tummy. Without the tummy the army cannot move. It is the same with the Government.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : and hon. members....
Mr. Chairman
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, we now have about 20 minutes only. I move that the House adjourn until Monday morning.
MR. GUZANA: Well , if the army moves on the tummy, the tummy is filled with what the army can find on the land. If there is nothing on the land how will the army get provision?
The debate was adjourned.
MR. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman, what I have realised is that their attitude is very negativist. I have noticed it before . I would never like to have such a defeatist approach. I should like anything to be attempted and always have the confidence that there is always a way to alter it to suit my purpose . I therefore plead with the hon. members of this House to be careful when
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 16th June , 1969. MONDAY , 16th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read. 434.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
going further that I am supporting wholeheartedly the amendment by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that this bill be not proceeded with. I have just mentioned that the general tax has been reduced , but subsequently the Government has introduced a certain measure of taxation. We are not yet settled as to how this new taxation will be proceeded with and it is on that account that we suggest this new bill be not proceeded with. We realise why the general tax was being reduced. It was with the idea The Euroof introducing this other taxation . peans have been paying this road tax all the time and now they want the African people also to pay this tax. This means that people who own properties under title deed and those with farms will have to pay this road tax. On Friday, while the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was addressing the House on this bill , the hon. the Minister of Finance indicated Paramount Chief Victor Poto , Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau, Paramount Chief Sabata and himself , and he said those are the people who will have to pay this road tax. Certainly we agree that it is so and that there will be a few others . We notice there is a personal allowance payable to the hon. the Chief Minister of R600 which this House approved of. This R600 is over and above the R400 entertainment allowance and we think it is proper that the Chief Minister should have an entertainment allowance .
12 TABLING OF DOCUMENTS MR. R.B. MSENGANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have the honour to table herewith the report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts , 1969.
THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table a white paper in connection with the Ncora Flats irrigation scheme. TRANSKEIAN ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING The debate was resumed. THE CHAIRMAN: When we adjourned on Friday the last speaker had come from the Government side. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg leave of the House to introduce an amendment that the Road Tax Bill be referred to a select committee during the recess , composed of members of both sides. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , I am sorry I have already asked that the next speaker will come from the Opposition . The last speaker was from the Government side , so I do not think you have any right to speak at this juncture . The next speaker must come from the Opposition side .
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . We are not discussing that at the moment. You should have brought that up during the appropriation debate . CHIEF NDAMASE : However , I should like that to be remembered. We discovered that this is just an allowance so that when he pays he will not suffer any loss to himself. I am sorry the other paramount chiefs are not present at the moment. Let me put it this way and make an effort to advise the hon. the Chief Minister. It is an admitted fact that all governments must have taxes paid to them . All organisations must have money and even a boys ' organisation , when Christmas approaches , they tax themselves to buy a sheep to provide Christmas fare . This coming month the Americans will hoist the flag on the moon because of the taxes they have collected . We are also keen that this Government should collect taxes in order to make progress , but we do not approve that the taxes paid to this Government must be paid with the people's tears . The hon. Mr. Guzana indicated that only a few people wil be liable to pay this tax and the hon. the Chief Minister indicated that it will be a heavy tax.
CHIEF JOZANA : Mr. Chairman, I shall be glad if you will allow.... THE CHAIRMAN: The speaker had already spoken from the Government side on Friday and I now call upon a speaker from the Opposition side . CHIEF JOZANA : I shall be glad if you will allow me just to move this amendment. THE CHAIRMAN: You can move it when the time comes .
1 CHIEF T.N. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , on Friday the last speaker was a member of the Government side . I shall not go into the confused talk that he delivered . During this session of the Assembly we had a bill relating to taxation which was passed . THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me , hon. member. I shall ask the hon. member at the back to please stop talking.
When did THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I did not say it would be a heavy I say that ? tax. I said the bill for the tax will come next year and I don't know what it will be .
CHIEF NDAMASE : During the discussion on that bil we found that the general tax had been reduced and we were delighted at that reduction .
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman , I was saying I would like to advise the hon. the Chief Minister on ways and means of raising money by the Government. The XDC makes profits out of of selling Jabulani .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, I am sorry but I will be bound to ask you to march out if you continue talking. CHIEF NDAMASE : I would like to say before
THE
435.
CHAIRMAN :
Hon. member , please
deal with the question before the House . I don't think XDC and Jabulani have anything to do with the present bill . Confine yourself to the subject matter.
that England had so advanced that they could start from the pig to the sausage , but the hon. the Leader of the Opposition won the day because he proved the process of the sausage back to the pig. (Laughter)
CHIEF NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, I was going to suggest that the Government should take 80 per cent of the profits of the XDC from Jabulani and in that way they will receive plenty of money, but if this is not acceptable let me I would suggest go on to something else .
MR. GUZANA: That is impossible . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : You did it at Lovedale . His intention in this debate was to make the remarks so that he could elicit from this side of the House the true functions or points contained in the bill . Unfortunately, as usual some of his men got so confused that in fact they believe that this thing could not be proceeded with straight away.
that this Government take special care when they introduce taxes next year to see that the XDC is liable for those taxes. At the moment this tax is paid largely by the traders and I would advise that this road tax be done away with entirely in the Transkei . Ifthe Government asks where the money will come from I do not know if the hon. the Minister of Finance is aware that there is money flowing out of the Transkei into the Republic . This is income tax paid by the people. I am sure he is aware of form IT. 12 which is constantly coming to him. That form falls heavily on the people. You should take steps to see that all the income tax paid by the people of the Transkei, the traders and other people, is turned over to the Transkei Revenue Fund. If the Government would take the trouble to compare the prospective amount to be derived from this road tax with the amount paid as income tax, they will discover that the income tax exceeds the revenue from road tax Further , no European will grouse if by far. this income tax is paid to the Transkei Revenue Fund because all the profits come from the trade they have among the Transkei citizens. I wish we should not be made to feel more pain now that we have this Government . In 1961 we argued heatedly that we would like independence in our I found that we were at that time own time. ing a grave , a grave into which we would just digg be buried alive. I wish the hon. members would take note of this, particularly at this time.
MR. R. MADIKIZELA : Are you referring to the amendment? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I come to the next point he made. He referred to the iniquity of taxation without representation. He was referring to the group of White people who have been taxed for some years and they had no representatives in this Assembly. I would that all the hon. members on both sides of the House honestly would throw that argument away, because for how long has the Black man continued to pay tax without representation? GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : MR. MADIKIZELA: iniquitous ?
Hear, hear.
Does that make it less
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The hon. the Leader of the Opposition made a remark again, and it was interesting because apparently he did not know what some of his men said in his absence . May I remind the hon. member that they said we need not have any worry about money because we have millions and millions of money belonging to the Transkei which is stored up in Pretoria. It was clear when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was making his expert remarks that he did not share that type of babyish thinking . It has been clear from the time when he made his remarks , and the subsequent rather puerile remarks , that there is necessity for money, and in the administration of any land taxation is the only way out. This Government has not gone out an inch from the accepted principles of taxation. Here is an interesting item, Mr. Chairman: We are witnessing an interesting situation where members are discussing a Taxation Bill which is based on accepted principles. May I , with your permission, say it is interesting to find that some of the hon. members on that side of the House are opposing this bill , but some prominent members are busy in some districts taxing people , or holding meetings that the people should be taxed so that the money collected must be sent to help in the fight against terrorists .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You are not going to pay road tax. Why are you worrying about it? CHIEF NDAMASE : The hon. the Chief Minister has been leading you and you are proper people with big stomachs. (Laughter) In following the Chief Minister I wish you would use your brains and not merely swim round in the pool. I appeal to you to use your own consciences and minds and not just act like sheep. When a sheep sees another one run under a lorry it also runs under the lorry, perhaps to the risk of its life. I wish you would vote that this bill be not read a second time . I thank you, Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we would like to make it clear that we were very much interested in the remarks made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . We went out of our way, indeed, to satisfy ourselves that some of the remarks he made were searching and had to be studied. Sometimes our worry is that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has been known for years to be an expert debater. In that respect I am reminded that it is on record that he debated after it had been put to the house
MR.
R.
MADIKIZELA:
Is that taxing?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : That is taxing. You are taxing the people. (Interjections ) It is really getting under the skin if people 436 .
from that side can call meetings and ask people to pay money, it does not matter whether you call it taxes or what , but it is intended to throw out the terrorists . (Interjections) I am against calling on people to pay that tax . (Interjections) You have no right to do that. Anyway, I am sorry.... MR. K.M. GUZANA : I would certainly not stop people financing an endeavour to protect themselves and I wonder how you, a Minister , can make such an utterance in this House. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman, I go further. You are not going to tax people as individuals . The Government will do that. (Interjections) Apparently this is really being done. MR . MADIKIZELA :
That is what you say.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The hon. member for Engcobo says it is being done. It became clear when some people were debating that they referred apparently to the wage structure of South Africa. You ought to have known that that is a different issue altogether . The field is wide open for you to attack the wage structure of South Africa, and if you want to bring in the suggestion of equal pay for equal work by all means do it , but at the moment we are dealing with a taxation bill purely on taxation principles . The basis of financial arrangements when self-government was granted to the Transkei in 1963 was , inter alia , that the Transkei would receive the amount spent by the Government of the Republic of South Africa during the financial year preceding the date of transfer . That would be done in respect of all matters the administration of which was transferred to the Government of the Transkei , and less the income from existing sources of revenue , which would accrue to the Transkei Revenue Fund in respect of those matters transferred to the Transkei . One of the matters transferred was public works , roads , bridges in the Transkei , excluding bridges between the Transkei and any other part of the Republic . The outcome of this constitutional arrangement was that the revenue from road tax and motor vehicle taxes accrued to the Transkei Revenue Fund. (Interjections) Apparently you do not know. You are so irresYou hardly even ponsible you do not know. take the interest to find out. The Transkei Government took over the responsibility from the Cape Provincial Administration in the Transkei except for the roads in the White towns . It was determined that the Cape Provincial
that those who have the property should pay for the property they possess. (Interjections) It has always been known that when responsible people with responsible minds are discussing serious matters , there must be a royal jester even if he is not employed . Thus all people with discerning minds in this House will agree that some form of taxation has to be done and the hon. the Chief Minister in his remarks made it clear that the details would have to be worked out. He went further to say the provisions in the bill would be made to suit the Black man and not to suit the White man, and he went on to cite that one of the things to be considered is that the Black people on the whole are poor , but we are fully aware that as the years go by more Black people are acquiring property, and the more people get more property, therefore , the taxing of those people must also come up and tally with the new situation. I am inclined to think, Mr. Chairman, that a responsible body of people should only look at it in that way. Most surprising is it that a government of the Transkei must be called upon to go up to Pretoria to ask for more money when, in fact, the open ways and means of raising money are denied. I made it clear from my remarks earlier that we accepted and decided to study the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who in fact was after eliciting more information about this . We can only hope that the most important thing is what I am saying. MR. B.S. MNYANI : the next six months .
You can study it for
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : A responsible group of men will not doubt the fact that there must be some taxation . With those remarks , Mr. Chairman , I support the bill. MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment that the bill be not proceeded with. The bill in front of the Assembly today has certain surprising features . First of all , it is the first time in the history of the African people that they should pay this road tax. This does not mean, however , that new ventures must always be opposed . All we maintain is that this road tax bill will come as a heavy burden on the people who own properties and have trading stations . Only as recently as 1964 we looked into this matter carefully and discovered that only a very few people owned properties on which taxes could be paid, but today we are told there are a sufficient number of African people who own land under title deed and who have trading stations . I do not think this to be a true statement because even the few who have bought trading stations from the XDC are still paying heavy instalments . Further, the people who are putting up homesteads will take a long time still to pay back the money they have borrowed , and the interest thereon. Many African people who own land have had to go through heavy troubles to possess this land , so much so that many of them merely acquire the land and thereafter discover that they have not got the wherewithal to develop it. I know several who own landed properties ,
Administration spent an amount of R752,900 on roads in the Transkei. Then, Mr. Chairman , I would like to go further. This bill intends to accept that we are coming of age and to avoid chaos which would apparently be the target of some of the hon. members. It also seeks to accept that we are a responsible Assembly. It seeks to affirm that money is basic in the administration of any land. It seeks to confirm that taxation of property is the sign that somebody has the means or , indeed , has the money. These are the things that apply to anybody anywhere in the world . It is only fair , therefore ,
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all my strength. I cannot understand the members of the Opposition when they say this bill should be suspended , because even if people were made to pay this tax they would be few. They do earn money . Even that little tax would be Mr. used for the benefit of the Transkei. Chairman and hon. members , it should be noted that there are many dwellings which have been bought by Africans and many towns have been zoned. It is our right to buy those properties and we should therefore pay for such rights.
but those properties are lying idle because the owners have not got the wherewithal to develop the land. Many of them have not got agricultural implements to work the land and their homesteads are falling to pieces . If they happen to have properties in municipal areas the rates fall , heavily on them and that causes them to live in poverty all the time. If this road tax should be put into effect it will mean that the owner of the land will go on selling portions of his land in order to meet this taxation , because there will be no profits accruing to him in any form . The position of the African people is well known, and the hardships through which they struggle in life . Even the European land-owners find it very difficult, so difficult that they have to be subsidized by the Government in order to retain their land and many who own land have had to leave the land and seek employment in the towns. I maintain that this bill is being introduced prematurely to the Transkei . It is quite true , as an hon. member has stated, that taxes must be paid so that there shall be money to enable the Government to carry on its work. Even though that be so, we ought to be very careful to see we are not doing harm to the people from whom we are demanding these taxes. Perhaps this is due to the false information that so many African people have bought properties in these zoned areas , and have bought trading stations out in the country, but there are very few of these people who own these properties as their own. Most of them still belong to the XDC . This speaker also spoke about the donations which were voluntarily paid by the people to assist others .
The Cape Provincial Administration has ceased collecting taxes for the Transkei . The hon. member for Nyanda, Chief Tutor Ndamase , has stated that this particular tax should be done away with and instead income tax should be paid, yet if we make our own laws as Transkei citizens we should deal with our own matters . As far as that matter is concerned we shall attend to it when the time is ripe. The hon. member for Emboland , Mr. Jafta , said there is no profit No one to be gained from these properties. can own property without realising some profit. If a man acquires property it is with the aim of gaining profit from it. If he does not get anything from his property the only thing is to dispose of it by way of sale . More of these properties are being bought by the people and therefore there should be no complaints as far as taxation is concerned. Most of the points have been explained by the hon. the Minister of the Interior, so I shall not touch on those. As far as taxation is concerned we ought to tax ourselves . Our Government is not a sham government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, MR. B.S. M VYANI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to the effect that this road taxation bill be not proceeded with. The hon. the Minister of the Interior made a statement to the effect that for a long time the African people were taxed when they had no representation. Very true , but whatever is wicked will remain wicked , no matter who That was a very wicked thing. is doing it.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Who initiated that? MR. JAFTA: These voluntary donations go to the people who are watching the borders of the Republic and whoever they may be these people are doing that voluntarily and without any comI mean thereby to point pulsion whatsoever . out that it is not correct to say there are people who are being made to pay these contributions . In his address the hon. the Minister of Finance said only well - to -do Africans would Who is a well- to- do be liable for this tax.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that this bill does not seek to tax White people in the Transkei who are not represented in this House . They will be taxed by the Republican Government.
African here? (Interjections) Even though he may appear to be wealthy he has not put aside any wealth because we have been made a poor people because of the low wages paid to us . I have already stated that this bill is premature . We feel it should be held back until investigations have been carried out to see how many people would be liable for this tax. One hon. member on the other side made a remark that he blamed us for not being keen to see the people taxed. I want to deny that statement openly because we have never said that. All we maintain is that we must do things according to conditions. If only a few people are to be taxed it will! mean they must be taxed heavily so that their taxation will justify the cost. I would that this whole Assembly would support the amendment to the effect that this bill be not proceeded with. I thank you , Mr. Chairman.
MR. MNYANI : I was saying, Mr. Chairman, what the hon. the Minister of the Interior had stated. This explanation was not given then. I maintain that the principle of taxation without representation is not good - it is a wicked thing.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Then you are out of order as far as this bill is concerned. MR. MNYANI : It is stated that it will be the African people who will now pay this road tax because the European people in the Transkei have been paying this tax , whereas the African people were not being taxed in this way. They felt that the Government was robbing them - this Government. It was a wrong thing to do and we do not want it to be continued . ( Interjections)
CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up in support of the bill with
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money is to buy property. We wish it would be clear to the chiefs on the other side that if they vote with a loud "yes" as they often do, they will be throttling us . Seeing we are their subjects they will be killing themselves by so I whole-heartedly support the amenddoing. ment to the effect that this bill be not proceeded with.
NE THE CHAIRMAN : The hon. Minister has told you this bill does not tax the White people . Why do you repeat it? MR . MVYANI: We African property- owners are being made the pawns from which this R90,000 will be made available . All the people in the Transkei , White or Black, would willingly pay this road tax if they knew they would not be made to leave the Transkei. Further, this bill shows that the policy of separate development is self- contradictory. We have just had a bill to the effect that the Bantu people must not pay according to the scale provided for the We were given a different European people. scale and this is self-contradictory in that the African people who were exempt from paying this tax must now be made liable . I go further, Mr. Chairman. Seeing we are now introducing this Road Tax Bill when we are developing the country , this will have the effect of keeping back White capital from developing the Transkei. I would like to make it clear that the XDC is at one time European, at another time a Bantu, at another time a White man which has bought all the trading stations in the Transkei . They must also pay this tax because all the African people will have to pay it. The property-owners were very frightened when they heard this Taxation Bill was to be introduced and because of the existence of this cruel Proclamation R.400 we could not summon a public meeting, (Laughter) but the few people we met and discussed this bill with said we are being driven out of the urban areas , and by this bill we are being driven to the reserves because of the taxes which have recently been passed and the rates which have been added on in the towns service charges , quarterly charges and so on and we therefore have still more taxes to meet. From next July the dipping fee per large beast will be 10 cents and the grazing fees in the municipal areas have gone up to 25 cents per beast up to four beasts .
THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I think some people are fastening on taxation as a cannibal with which to frighten others . Different governments have always fallen on taxation as a means of getting money to administer the country and no government has ever taxed people with a view to bleeding them. The Transkeian Government is a very responsible government and a sympathetic one, too. It will never ever tax the people beyond their means . Since you are all Christians I will just remind you of a certain rich man who went to Jesus Christ and approached Him with a request as to how he could enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As part of His reply to this particular man, Jesus Christ said that since he was rich he should go back home and divide his wealth among the poor . Time and time again we have been hearing different members trying to tell us of the plight of the poor. In a way I think this road tax answers the people in the same measure as Jesus Christ answered that particular rich man. This Transkei is still a growing state and in a growing state the people should be prepared to make sacrifices. If the majority is not in a position to make sacrifices then the onus falls on the minority. Hence , then, we find that according to this road tax only a few for a start will feel what you term its " pinch" , Well , but what I term making a sacrifice . to a person who is always having a negative approach you call it that , but I call it making a sacrifice. Some of you are feeling that the Transkei would rather sacrifice what amount we did receive from the road tax. With your numerous demands for a rise in pay and so on, I feel we can ill afford at the present moment to make such a sacrifice . All I say finally is that acceptance of the road tax is just one way of sacrificing in order to set the Transkei on its feet.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. member , that concerns the municipality. MR. MNYANI : I am trying to show that this Taxation Bill is being imposed over and above the other taxes which have to be met. A large beast over the four beasts will have to be paid 50 cents for. The people in these municipal areas are groaning. They will know full well what the new Minister of the Interior is. (Interjections ) n THE CHAIRMAN : Confine yourself to the bill please.
CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to add something in support of the amendment moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. In fact, the amendment does not imply that taxation is not acceptable. In all countries where there is progress there must be taxation. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : say it must not be proceeded with?
MR. MNYANI : Further , Mr. Chairman, many property-owners in these municipal areas have bought these properties themselves . They have not inherited them. They have had to live very plainly and have had to save a lot of money which is also taxed. That is money they could have spent here running around after young girls. (Laughter) They have kept this money, on which they have already been taxed , in order to buy property. Now it is further suggested that they be made to pay tax on that property, because a Black man feels the only way to save
Then why
CHIEF NDAMASE : Any government responsible for the introduction of taxation should first of all find out whether they will not be overburdening the people with such taxation. Secondly, those responsible people should first find out whether the taxes imposed on the people would be fair to those people . We have been told that the White people who have been paying this tax.... THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : 439.
You in-
XDC and at the same time they have to pay rates. One might ask whether this will not discourage those people who are anxious to buy these properties , and just leave the purchase of properties entirely to the XDC . Why do you not try to get a subsidy as far as this road tax is concerned from the Republican Government, seeing that the Republican citizens use these roads extensively? The Republican buses travel on these roads . It appears to me that if you get a subsidy from the Republican Government you would get more money from them than from the few people who will have to pay road tax. You have admitted that it will affect only a few people and how will that money help you as far as road repairs are concerned? We have not heard that you have ever made a request for a subsidy from the Republican Government for road maintenance. During the Bunga time this did happen. The Government paid a grant in order to pay for the use of the roads by the railway buses . I do not know if you have read the history of the Bunga and the Republican Government. That history is contained in this very book of yours. Even the Republican Government cannot give any reason for the withdrawal of that money. I cannot even blame the Republican Government because you have never even made a request. You have just rushed to tax the people who do not use these roads. We say this bill should be suspended and that you take our advice to consult with the Republican Government and leave this bill alone.
creased taxes without consulting the people in the Bunga. CHIEF NDAMASE : If the Africans were not liable for this tax it would have been better to abolish it. The people who use the roads most are the White people when they go to the coast. Even the South African Railways use the roads a great deal and the greatest users of the roads are the tourists who use them more than the Black people. In so saying I am trying to explain that the White people should not be the people to complain about having to pay this road tax. All along the Black people have been paying local tax and the money was used to assist repairs on the roads, and that tax was not paid by the White people. The hon. the Minister of Finance stated that the amount of approximately R90,000 was collected through this tax. As he says that road tax should be paid by Africans who are property-owners I think he has counted the number of property-owners and come to the conclusion that if they were made to pay, the Transkei would acquire such an amount of money. Unfortunately, he did not tell us how much those people will pay. It is quite clear in our minds that very, very few people will have to pay road tax. (Interjections ) I have already stated that it is the White community which uses the road most. One might say that on account of business they use these roads with a view to helping the Black people . Even so, an African. has to pay money by way of indirect taxation because the pair of trousers he buys from the White trader will cost him the price plus transport charges. A White person could not therefore say he should pay extra taxes after he has paid for the commodity he has. Furthermore, the African also pays bought. indirect tax in other ways. The hon. the Minister of Finance has already stated he was going to request that the indirect taxation which is paid over to the Republican Government should be paid over to the Transkei Government. I do not know how far he has undertaken to do so. I do not know why he should not wait to see whether the money he has given will be sufficient before he introduces taxation on the Trans-
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the second reading of the Transkei Road Tax Amendment Bill was resumed. MR. C. DABULA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , firstly I wish to associate myself with the motion. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the most important thing is money. Money is the most important factor in all governments . If the funds of the
kei citizens. Probably he cannot help it because he is probably being persuaded by the European people to impose taxation on the Africans . I do not know about this road taxation. I know of one man who has never used a car, but he has land in the Umtata municipal area. He has buildings and a small plot of land. No one has ever seen this particular man in a car, but he wil have to pay this tax. A person should pay tax because he is going to get some benefit from it. One hon. member asked if there is not a road leading to his property. There is .
government are very low then that government is weak . A poor government is wont to ask for loans from other governments , until you find that that money all falls into the hands of bankers. How can the Government raise funds then? One of the main methods is by taxing the people. I wish to inform the hon. members that the eyes of the Transkei citizens are on you to see that the Government of the Transkei does not become bankrupt. The Government has no other alternative but to tax the people in order to raise money. Any government has to provide for its poor, the sickly and the children. All these people require government assistance. The Transkeians look to the Government to provide educational facilities for their young, to make provision for the poor to see to the maintenance of roads , to provide subsistence for children during periods of starvation. As the Transkei Government has to provide all these things , how is it going to get money when you say the Government should not impose taxes ? In explaining
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Well , that is some benefit. CHIEF NDAMASE : Even if there is that benefit the man pays rates to the municipality. Have you no sympathy with those people who buy properties within the municipality of Umtata and it is well understood that they have purchased the properties by way of loans? They have title deeds to those properties but they have still to pay instalments on money lent to them by the
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the Road Tax Bill the hon. the Minister of Finance told you about the money that has been paid in taxes by the White people which amounts In turn this money was of to about R90,000.
listen to Moses saying over the radio: I am still smoking that is a tax. When he uses tobacco and matches , there is a tax on that. The petrol that is put into your car - there is
great assistance to the Transkeians . The hon. member for Umtata said these people who were made to pay this tax had no representation in this House. I would ask that hon. member whether the Umtata town council consulted the residents in connection with the 50 cents grazing fee paid to the municipality. There was nothing for them but to do or die. It is usual that only a few people will pay taxes and the majority will not pay . Even today a small number of people pay taxes for buses , but the great majorrity do not pay. A few gentlemen in here pay taxes for their houses and a vaster number of them do not pay. A few people pay taxes and rates on their homes , but the great majority own no houses . I do not pay a licence for a radio but at the same time I do not wish to buy a radio . A man who does not want to pay taxes for a bus will find his only salvation in not buying a bus. Similarly, a person who does not want to pay for his land in a municipal area should not acquire land. Hon. members , I support this bill because some money will be taken from me and it wil go towards helping the poorer people . The people who will pay That money most are the paramount chiefs . wil. help the poorer group . It is customary that people are helped by the paramount chiefs. Whenever you go to the Great Places you will find just next to the stock-kraal a crowd of people who will be fed there . As the Transkei is not overcrowded with paramount chiefs the money that is paid by the paramount chief of Qamata will go to help the poor people resident in Mount Frere . You will find that many countries , such as America and England , are cultured largely because of taxation. For that reason today they can pay out money for people to fly to the moon. Their money has been raised through taxation . The Government will only tax those people who are able to pay, and not the people who are poor . When the Transkei Government saw the crowds of poor people who are starving they decided that the R90,000 should not be lost and that the few people who have got property must pay this tax, just as the few people who are owners of radios should pay those licence fees. It cannot be said that anyone who owns property has no means . If you pay licence fees for your radios you can pay taxes on the property you own. If you can pay for your bus licence , similarly you can pay for your property. You speak of rates , but those are the municipal taxes where you are not even represented. The hon. members of this House must therefore know that the backbone of any nation is taxation. Without taxation a government is dead. The Transkei Government is interested in its own people . Even now they have seen that children are starving and arrangements have been made for feeding schemes. When I pass these schools I usually see children with bowls of soup . How can this Government
a tax on that. There is a tax on the electricity you use at night. When you say the Government should do something without having the means When you paid for your it cannot be done. licences you did not squeal , but you squeal when the Government wants you to pay taxes . The citizens of the Transkei look up to you forr the upliftment of the Transkei . I wish to tell you hon. members that in any government, each second a tax is paid . The reason why I have repeated that remark is to tell you it is best to keep quiet. I am supporting this road tax bill . 978 MR. C.S. MNYILA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , if I do not put in a word on this discussion I shall have failed in my duty. May I speak, therefore , to old and young in this Assembly. I note as I have been listening to the discussion that people are trying to pursue the old customs of the people who want to enjoy an inheritance while the father is still alive , whereas the person who inherits property should only enjoy that inheritance after the death of his predecessors . Let us try to find out the origin of this road tax in the Transkei. This is a tax paid by circumcized men, not by youths . It was R1 in those days , and it was a road tax. This was because of the complaint of the traders who said that the roads leading to their stations were not maintained. This was responsible for the introduction of the road tax for the purpose of maintaining roads to White trading stations and coastal holiday resorts . I think there are only about four places – namely , Qolora on the lower boundaries of Kentani , Mazeppa Bay also in Kentani district , and Coffee Bay next door to Umtata , and there may be another one . All these roads were used by African people and by Europeans who went to the holiday resorts . All this time the Africans did not pay this tax, but when people appealed to the Government they heeded the appeal. In bringing forth this Taxation Bill the hon. the Minister of Finance appeals to us to take over these places that were used by the Europeans , to hold them as our own and to improve them in every respect. The law of our Now, let us take note of this. father, the Republican Government, has stated that the Transkei belongs to the African people and the Transkei must be left solely to them . The European traders must leave the Transkei and live among their European kinsmen. Now that we are required to pay the taxes which they had to pay, have all the Europeans left the Transkei? We are still continuing to pay all the taxes that we were liable for , including general tax. Now, I would like to tell you this , and here is a list of all the taxes that we pay in the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Hon. member, may I put a question. Is the hon. member aware that the property-owners in the Transkei do not pay local tax ?
raise this money , and where will it get the money if you say taxation should not be imposed? Has the Government any minerals ? Has it factories ? Every second a day, for 24 hours of the day, you are being taxed . Whenever you
MR. MNYILA: Do you mean to tell me that if I own property in a municipal area, or I
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We have been told that the purpose of this road taxation is precisely for the maintenance of roads leading to farms and to property-owners buildings and shops . We are very grateful and proud to find that a number of our African people have now taken possession of European trading stations in the Transkei because not very long ago that was not the position. Now, must these Africans who look forward to their own government suffer? Apart from the maintenance of roads leading to those trading stations we must consider that each trading station serves thousands of African people around it. Food supplies are off-loaded at Umtata station and some of these traders have their own lorries to cart foodstuffs to the respective areas . Will those people not suffer if no roads are maintained? If this Government does not consider ways and means of continuing with the good work that was done by the Europeans when they were still at the head of affairs in the Transkei , won't they be disappointed?
have a farm I do not pay any taxes ? Here are the different taxes paid by your own people to which taxes you are now adding this extra tax : Poll tax, whether you have property in a municipal area or a private farm , you will still pay that tax . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I am talking about local tax. MR. MNYILA : Married or unmarried, you are liable for this poll tax, whether you have an arable allotment or not. It has to be paid only for smiling upon your own wife . (Laughter ) Another tax is the general tax paid by every adult male ; quitrent, for which all people who have arable allotments are liable. Another one is the general levy which you are liable for when married, even if you have no arable plot. Another one you pay is for an arable allotment, and there is the tax you pay on cloting. If I buy a suit of clothes in a shop I have to pay about R35 , which includes the tax on these clothes . The European trading stations have not been taken over entirely by the African people and only after the Europeans have left should we come into this and then it will be time for us to talk about this tax. Let us not snatch from our father, the Republican Government, the right over his children while he is still alive. The day we are independent then we can say the Republican Government is dead. Now that we are still as we are the Republican Government is still our father. When our Transkei will be entirely Black and entirely African, then and only then shall we say the Republican Government is no more , but we shall not on that account tell the people who live in the rural areas to pay a tax because they happen to own property in a municipal area because we shall all be bound under one taxation law without distinction, just as we are now. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. B.S. MNYANI : May I ask a question . Seeing you are mayor of Nogate will the people there be asked to pay the tax ? MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: If we have to see that the traders have to supply foodstuffs to the people of the Transkei we must maintain good roads. I do not think it is the aim of the hon. the Minister of Finance to have this taxation partially effected . What he said to this House is that it is only the European property- owners who have been paying this road tax in the past. Now, if we are proud of what we are we must not allow ourselves to be carried on the back of the White man all the time. I think this taxation will also be paid to a certain extent by the White property-owners who are still in the Transkei . What we are aiming at is that this R90,000 which has been revenue into the Transkei must not just be wiped off the paper. I would have personally supported and welcomed an amendment to this effect. The hon. the Minister of Finance quoted that we shall have to pay 5/8 cent on every R1 . All right, if an amendment was towards the reduction of this 5/8 cent to , let us say, something like 3/8 cent. Let us come to figures. I know one hon. member from your side who once said lies can figure , but figures can never lie . All right, let us now come to figures , hon. members of the House. If we have to work on 5/8 cent to R1 , on property worth R500 the tax would be only R3.12% per annum . On R1,000 the taxation would be R6.25 annum . I have given you some figures on the basis of 5/8 cent per R1 per annum, now I will come to 3/8 cent. If your amendment was aimed at the reduction from 5/8 cent to 3/8 cent then on a property worth R500 the owner would have to pay R1.87% and on R1,000 it would be R3.75 per annum . One hon. member asked me which would I prefer. I am just putting the cards before you. Which is better - to
MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , indeed today we are handling a very delicate issue and it is only people who term themselves leaders of a nation who have to come together and reason well over this issue. The most important thing is not to try and capitalize on the Taxation Bill before us in an endeavour to please the gallery. The most important thing is that we must consider ourselves as people in a responsible government, and it is that government which has to devise ways We and means to run its affairs properly. have come to a stage in the Transkei where we must manage or mismanage our own affairs as long as it is to the welfare of our country. In this concerted struggle of building up a nation we must have money and those who term themselves Members of Parliament must pay in their lot. Why accept self-government when we know very well that we cannot work ourselves up to the mark expected of us ? MR. B.S. MNYANI : accept.
leave the Transkei roads in a dilapidated condition with dongas and eroded , whereas we could have ways and means of repairing them? Right, let me come nearer to mother earth. Perhaps talking about properties and maintenance of roads does not register quite well in your minds . This statement I am about to adjure reminds
That is why we do not
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA : If we were to sit down and ponder very deeply, in the final analysis it is our country that will benefit. 442.
ment. At the same time I do not say that the tax should not be imposed. No one says taxation is not wanted , but we view this matter in a different way. What has been said about people who own properties is quite new. Those people who own those properties do not even know the boundaries of their own properties. I think that is one of the reasons why this amendment has been introduced. People are still looking to receive the post wherein they will be advised of their accounts as far as rates are concerned , their accounts for electricity, water and sewerage charges. When a man has been faced with all these accounts he finds himself in difficulty. Some people come from the rural locations and they cannot understand anything about municipal regulations . Some of them come from places like Johannesburg and are total strangers to what is being done here. We want the doubts to be
me of what was once said by the late General Smuts. He was , of course , making a very contemptuous , derogatory statement about the African people of South Africa . I never agreed with him personally, but he said a statement to this effect · that the African people in South Africa waste their time on three things - laziness, wine and women. I am only going to take the medium one • wine . How many of you have spent their money on luxuries? A man at times consumes liquor to an average of R70 per month. If you can afford to spend so much money on liquor, how much more if you were to sacrifice as the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works has told you ! If we were to curtail some of our strong drinking habits and see that if per month you spend R70 on liquor then in a year if your property is worth R1,000 you will only spend R3-75. Why can't we sacrifice for the love of our own country? (Interjections ) I am not prepared to deviate from the course I am following. If we are a self-respecting people we must manage or mismanage our own affairs. After all, playing to the gallery and trying to capitalize on this Taxation Bill is not going to help us in any way. We have a res-
removed from these people's minds first of all . We should not treat taxation as a light matter. I heard the last speaker , the hon. Mr. ka- Tshunungwa, say this is a very minor matter when he spoke about R1-87 a year. In that way he minimizes this matter. He forgets he is talking about people who also have to meet accounts from the stores. A man is responsible for clothing his children and he also has to look after his property and put up fences and so on. As this person has probably bought property through the XDC he has to pay transfer fees . In fact, if the Government wants to raise funds why don't they insist on higher wages for the man who goes to the mines because there is a large number of labourers there from the Transkei. If conditions were improved for the miners they would be in a position to pay taxes just as we are , and as the teachers who pay their taxes without any difficulty. The reason why I suggest the mines is because all those labourers who go to the mines go on contract and they cannot escape. I think it is one of the responsibilities of the Transkei Government to ask for increased wages for those people who work in the mines in order to raise their standard of living so that they also can become people with large stomachs . It is an indisputable fact that we wish taxes to be introduced in the Transkei but this amendment seeks that this bill should be shelved. This would not be a new thing because it is a well -known fact that all governments sometimes shelve certain matters. If you would agree with us as far as this amendment is concerned it would not mean to say that we have overpowered you. Supposing now we speak about the Black traders who have taken over from the White traders . They are , without any doubt, not as yet the owners of those stores because the stores still belong to the XDC. It is said that the XDC does not pay taxes .
ponsible Cabinet and they have gone deep into this matter and have decided that this must be placed before this House. We are not in a position at all , hon. members of the House, to put the Transkei in a difficult situation. We can never be happy to find that at some time our Chief Minister will be a globe-trotter going to countries overseas to beg for money in order to maintain his own country. All we have to do is to rally round him and see that we lift the Transkei up. In January I listened to one of the most beautiful addresses by Mr. J.H.T. Mills. This was on the occasion of the installation of the hon. Chief Mteto. Mr. Mills compared a country, Palestine , with the Transkei and geographically he told us that Palestine is far smaller than the Transkei but Palestine is so much more self- supporting than the Transkei because the people of Palestine know what they have to do for their own country. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please . MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: If we have accepted the policy towards self-realisation we must see to it that we do not appeal to anybody but we Some of you must do things for ourselves . think that the people of the Transkei are going to accept what you are going to say outside . If some of you here are property or farm owners they would be the very first people to squeal if these roads were not maintained. I do not see the reason why we cannot come together on this very important matter, because it is for the good of property-owners in the Transkei. ( Interjections) You refer to Khotso . He will not be exonerated from this. In fact, it has been clearly stated to you that those rich farmers will pay most heavily. With these few remarks , hon. members , I stand four - square in support of the bill before the House .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : know that? They do pay.
How do you
MR. RAZIYA: If the XDC does not pay taxes it is quite proper that they have still to improve the lot of people who are poor. I will emphasize that the conditions of mine labourers should be improved. You must not regard it as disgraceful because you originate from the redblanketed people, have no doubt. I believe the
MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , much has been said in this House about this bill and I associate myself with the amend-
hon. the Chief Minister will make a request
443.
speakers on the Opposition benches have called upon the Government to request that the Government should increase its grant to the Transkei Revenue Fund as if this Government has done nothing to place before the Republican Government a desire to increase the grant which has got to meet the services ofthe Transkei GovernI would like the hon. members to turn ment. and to look at the Estimates of Expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkei Revenue Fund for the year 1970/1971 , on the last page where details are given.
for better payment of mine labourers . Even to look at his official appearance you can see he is a man who is prepared to do good. (Laughter ) I am sure he will make a request without even using any force . Sometimes you must not be accompanied by a crowd of people . You should go by yourself to discuss matters with the White people and explain our difficulties to them . You must not go by night but in broad daylight. If the hon. Minister goes accompanied by many people he may say things are wrong through the influence of such a crowd. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members of the House , I feel that the debate has been fully dealt with at this stage . I shall therefore ask the hon. the Minister of Finance to reply.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : 1970?
To the end of the year
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , where details are given about the sources of revenue . Now, you will see that the amount is R85,000 from road tax and it has already decreased because some of the traders have left the Transkei and the trading stations for which road tax was paid are no more paying that amount. We have already lost R4,000 . Now , if you look at Part II - Grant to be paid into the fund from the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Republic in terms of paragraph 52 (1) (c) of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 , that amount of R10,195,000 has come to that figure because of an increase of R130,000 . Now the additional sum to be appropriated by the Republican Parliament in terms of paragraph (d) of this section of the Act is R1,950,000 so that during the ensuing financial year a sum of R2,080,000 is being granted to the Transkei Government by the Republican Government.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that my speech may be longer than 25 minutes I would request that we adjourn till 4 p.m. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned. AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have listened with very great interest to the speeches of the hon. members of the Opposition and from what they have said I have deduced that they would like the budget on the revenue side during the financial year 1970/1971 to be reduced by an R90,000 . The hon. the Leader amount of about of the Opposition has categorically stated that it was most cruel for the Government of the Transkei to tax people who are not represented in this House but in reply to that I would say this is a very unfair accusation on the Transkeian Government because when this taxation was imposed by the Provincial Council of the Cape of Good Hope in 1935 on the Transkeian Whites , although they were represented in White Parliament in Cape Town that money was paid into the coffers of the United Transkeian Territories General Council. The reason why this money was paid into the funds of the General council was because that body was responsible for the construction of roads up to the trading stations in the Transkeian Territories , and the White traders demanded that their roads should be properly constructed , because although they are in the Transkei they are also under the Republican Government. Now, in 1964 the position changed in that the Transkei Government was the body that made laws in the Transkei for the Transkeian citizens and as the Cape Provicial Council no longer derived any revenue from the collection of the road tax the executive committee decided that they should repeal the Ordinance No. 1 of 1935. The Republican Government indicated that they were not prepared to increase the annual grant payable to the Transkei Revenue Fund in terms of section 52 (1 ) (b) of the Transkei Constitution Act by an amount equal to that which will be forfeited when this ordinance is repealed . Now many
MR. GUZANA : Is that 1966/1967 nothing was given?
not because in
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : you the grant which was made . got the figures for 1966/1967 .
I am giving I have not
MR. GUZANA: There is blank for that year. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I have the figures for 1968/1969 , but in any event what is the reason for the hon. members across the floor to say that this road tax which has such a long period of payment from the White people should not be paid by the Transkei citizens ? The reason is that it is being imposed on a class of poor people . How can you call people poor when they take over trading stations which were occupied by the White people ? How can you call people poor who are taking over properties which were formerly occupied by the White people in the towns ? Mind you , these people who occupy these properties in the towns do not pay the local tax which is paid by the people who are in the rural areas . In other words , they want to live on the sweat of the poor people who are in the reserves . They talk of rates in the towns and all that. That is for water and sanitation, lights and all that. Have the African traders not to pay any tax at all, apart from the general tax? I mean the African traders who will own the shops occupied by the White people , because those people will not pay the local tax which the ordinary man in the reserves pays . I submit, Sir , that to any man who
444.
has studied political science taxation is imposed because the services of the country have got to be done . The tax must be fair to everybody and all along these people who reside in the towns have not paid any taxes towards the services of the Transkei , apart from the poll tax, because they do not pay the local tax. Look at the Transkei citizens of Umzimkulu they are used to this road tax because they have always paid it, and in Matatiele as well. These roads for which this tax has got to be paid lead to the properties of these tycoons . Now, our farmers in the past have not had the privilege of demanding that roads should be made right up to their houses , because they do not pay anything to this road tax and at the same time they do not pay the local tax. In any event, the Government of the Transkei always assisted them to see that some road is made to their places . Now, the White people who still remain in the Transkei will pay this road tax, not because they are taxed by this body. We will request that the State President should issue a proclamation that they should pay this tax but, as I said in my second reading speech, it may not be the same as it was before . The Government is conscious of the fact that the financial position of the African people is not the same as that of the White people , and for that reason it may not impose the 5/8 cent in the R1. This is a responsible Government that will see that the tax is reasonable. Now, I am giving that assurance as Minister of Finance.....
MR. GUZANA : Of its national roads in the Transkei - not of the Transkei roads . Jou THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , which we use , so the Republican citizens can use any roads we make in the Transkei because we use the national roads in the Republic. Now , I wish to advise you that these tycoons in the Transkei always demand roads and that they must have nice streets . This Government contributes money to the council towards the making of your roads. OPPOSITION MEMBER : How much? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You actually saw our graders working in the location. (Interjections)
THE CHAIRMAN: Order , please . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Those graders were working on municipal ground for your own benefit. You want better roads and better services, but you don't want to pay. That is very, very strange , but I think no person has given a better reply to the hon. members across the floor than the hon. member for Mount Frere , Mr. Colly Dabula , when he said you have been paying taxes daily. Every day you consume a lot of liquor and by doing that you give so much money to the State . Why do you pay that tax if you don't want to pay taxes? MR. B.S. MNYANI : taxation.
MR. GUZANA : So you say you are going to bite, but not bite very hard.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You don't pay it to me - you pay to the Republic. We do get that money from the Republican Government I have quoted it to you now. It is the money we get in grants , but don't say that the Transkei Government must not tax you. The services of the country have got to be performed. The hon. member for Mqanduli who resides in Ncambedlana has asked the question as to why the rural villages should not be cut up into freehold plots .
O THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : ....and don't doubt my integrity. Now, so much has been said about the Xhosa Development Corporation, a body that has been established to assist the African people . Many people are so ungrateful to the Republican Government. The Xhosa Development Corporation is not a profit-making body and as a person in terms of the law, like all companies it will pay this road tax , as the tax is based on all properties which are owned on title in the Transkei.
The question was: MR. GUZANA : are they not given title deeds to them ? is not the same thing.
MR. GUZANA : That means , in effect , that the properties bought over by the XDC vest ownership in the XDC? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , the XDC is a Bantu person in terms of the law. Roads They are are not for particular individuals. made for communication of the public so that the whole country benefits from such communication. Many people have said so much about the White people using the roads more than the African people and I think that statement is challengeable . Some of these roads in the Transkei are national roads. They belong to the Republican Government. For example , the road to Port St. John's is a national road and the road from here to Queenstown is a national road , and also the road from here to Durban. The road to Queenstown through Lady Frere , Cala , Elliot , Maclear, Mount Fletcher , Matatiele , right up to Kokstad is a national road, so the Republican Government pays a lot of money towards the construction ode ga of the Transkei roads.
You must ask for that
Why That
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , they will have to be cut up into freehold plots if they are to be given title and be surveyed. Now, that is the question that he put. Those areas belong to tribes. They are tribal property although it is land that belongs to the Government. (Laughter) We respect the position that it is tribal land and the moment any tribe decides that the area occupied by them should be cut up into freehold land the Government will not hesitate to do so , but in the meantime we cannot afford to lose this R90,000 because the Provincial Councul has stated they are not interested in it. Now, the Minister of Bantu Administration in Pretoria says they cannot press the Provincial Council to retain this provision and the best that can be done is to impose this tax on all propertyowners in the Transkei and, by the way, there are not more than fifteen in this House.
19 MR. GUZANA :
445 .
It is quite easy to get the
you have this road tax it is going to be twice R90,000 ? In other words , you get the R90,000 from the Whites , plus another R90,000 or something from the Africans ?
majority in this House then to legislate against the fifteen. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , it is not that we want to maintain existing legislation....
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE ; MR. GUZANA : May I ask a question. Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I ask the hon. the Minister of Finance to explain how he can equate a property tax with a road tax whose specific purpose is to maintain roads, and draw the money into the general revenue fund? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : This road tax is imposed in order to make beautiful streets for you in the towns , in that you are now tycoons , you see, and you live decently. (Laughter) If the council has no money and appeals to the Government we must be in a position to contribute towards the making of roads . Now, we must be in a position to make a beautiful road to Chief Mabandla's place and a nice road to the hon. Mr. Gotgot Jafta the moment he buys a trading station from the XDC . That is why it is called a road tax. It is because it has got to do services for those people who are of a high standard. MR. GUZANA: question.
No, I am
suggesting there are certain properties which have been acquired by the Transkei citizens for which road tax was not paid. For example , I will refer to thirty farms in Xalanga district. No road tax was paid for those farms. I am not sure whether the farms of the paramount chiefs and the chiefs will fall into this category , but assuming they fall into the category.... MR. GUZANA: Is there any doubt? PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : (Laughter)
Yes !
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Assuming they fall into this category the two paramount Chiefs of Pondoland , the two paramount chiefs of Tembuland, the chief of the Bacas in Mount Frere and the chief of the Jumbas in Engcobo district will pay very heavily. That is service to the country. They must share the profits of those farms with the poor people . Mr. Chairman, with those few words I do not think it is necessary for me to say anything more . I move that the
You have not answered my
second reading of this bill should be passed by this House .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I have replied. Now, the comments of the hon. member for Ngqeleni that the tourists and the South African Railways and all the Whites are the major users of roads in the Transkei - well , that cannot be denied. They are doing a lot of services to the Transkei citizens , but there are very many Transkei citizens who are now using cars , wagons and tractors and all those vehicles have got to travel on nice roads .
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , the question is a motion by the hon. the Minister of Finance that the bill be fore the House be read a second time , to which an amendment by the hon. Mr. K.M.N. Guzana has been moved. I shall put the question that the words sought to be deleted should be deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment.
MR. GUZANA : And there is the annual licence for this .
The words proposed to be deleted were retained.
The motion was carried.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , I know that. This is additional to the licence. The principle of taxation is that the man who can afford to pay should be taxed. We are assuming that people who purchase properties in the towns have the money .
The bill was read a second time. THE CHAIRMAN: What date for the committee stage ? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Wednesday, Mr. Chairman, the 18th June.
MR. GUZANA : Very well , and we say the person who cannot afford to pay the tax should be exonerated from the tax.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 17th June, 1969.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : He will sell the property to the next buyer and go and find a house elsewhere . I am not in a position to say how much will be collected by means of this road tax, but I should say that it will be additional to the amount that was paid to the White traders , but if the Cabinet decides that a lesser amount should be paid it might be equal the amount which was paid by the White traders , or less. But this question will be dealt with by the Cabinet when the matter comes up for discussion and a bill is being considered . At present we are just dealing with the principle .
TUESDAY , 17th JUNE , 1969
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I just want to announce that should the Government business be completed by Thursday morning the House will immediately rise.
MR . GUZANA: Were you suggesting that when
446 .
NOTICE OF MOTION
(c) I am not aware of any material disparity between wages paid in the Transkei and the Republic. I may mention that one should not be blinded by the globular impression of the actual amounts received by employees in the Republic , as wages include , for example , necessary expenses such as the cost of travellingto yledon and from work by public transport.
MR. N.V. REVE gave notice to move : - " That this House should consider the advisability of granting leave to move a motion of special importance to the constituency of Kentani district and that this motion should receive precedence above all other motions , namely:That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to amend section 23 (b) of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963 , by the deletion of the word 'fifty nine ' and the substitution therefor of the word ' sixty' and section 23 (b) (v) by the addition of the following words after the word 'Willowvale ' ' one chief in the district of Kentane '."
QUESTION NO. 52. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of the Interior : (I) In what circumstances are (a ) pensions and (b) gratuities payable to (i ) teachers transferred from the Cape Department of Education to serve in the Transkei Department of Education; (ii) teachers who started serving in the Transkeian Education Department?
MR . A. XELO : I second.
THE CHAIRMAN:
(II) How are these (a) pensions and (b) gratuities paid to teachers?
Does the House agree?
Agreed.
(III) Are tachers who have (a) resigned and (b) dismissed or expelled entitled to the refund of their contributions both to the Cape and Transkei Departments of Edualcation?
QUESTIONS
QUESTION NO. 51 . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of the Interior: -
If not, why not? REPLY :
(a) Whether or not there has been any commission or body appointed to investigate the manner in which employees are being paid salaries or wages by Transkei industiries , hotels, trading stations , garages , etc. with a view to determining such wages as would enable labourers to meet the present cost of living index ?
(I) (i ) If these teachers are members of the Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund and are under 50 years of age , they may elect to cease contributing to that fund fo the purpose of joining the Transkeian Government Employees ' Pension and Gratuity Fund. Once having done so, they become entitled on retirement from the Transkei Government to such paid-up benefits as had accrued to them in the Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund ( as at the date of cessation of membership) plus an annuity or gratuity payable to them from the Transkeian Pension Fund as provided for in Proclamation No. 143 of 1921. If they wish to remain members of the Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund they will at retirement receive the relatively Blower pension which is payable by this Fund.
(b) If not, why not? (c) If not, is he aware of the fact that the wages paid to workers in the Transkei for the same jobs are lower than those paid in the Republic? What does he think had better be done in order to ameliorate these Transkeian employees' low wages ?
REPLY : (a) No. (b) The Wage Act No. 5 of 1957 does not apply to persons in respect of their employment in farming operations or in domestic service in private households , to persons employed by the Government nor to persons whose conditions of employment are regulated by an Industrial Conciliation Act.
(ii) These teachers are in the same position as all other employees occupying prescribed posts in the Transkei Government Service , i.e. if they are under 40 years of age they are obliged to join the Transkeian Pension Fund , whereas if they are over 40 they have an option in this respect. In terms ofthe Transkeian Government Service Pensions Act No. 2 of 1967 , no teacher who was in the Transkeian Government Service prior to 1st April , 1966 may contibute to the pension fund from a date earlier than such date . In these cases , also , pensions and gratuities
If a Wage Board in terms of the said Act were to be appointed it would only be able to investigate the determination of the wages of a very small group of people employed in the rural areas . (The urban areas being outside the jurisdiction of the Transkeian Government) . Itherefore do not consider it worthwhile to appoint a Wage Board.
447.
are payable as provided for in Proclamation No 143 of 1921 .
What is the commencing salary for a matriculant in the clerical staff of the (a) (b) (c) (d)
(II) All payments from the Transkeian pension fund are made by cheque , and are at present sent direct to the pensioner at the address stipulated by him.
REPLY: (a) R618 per annum or more , depending on appropriate experience.
Pensions (annuities ) are paid monthly, and gratuities in one lump sum. (III) All contibutors to the Transkeian pension fund are entitled to a refund of their contributions in accordance with the relative provisions of Proclamation No. 143 of 1921 in the case of resignation , dismissal or discharge .
(b) The enquiry should be directed to the Commissioner of the S.A. Police . (c) There are no clerical staff, as such, in the Transkeian Police Force , the question therefore , falls away.
The Cape Teachers ' Pension Fund, on the other hand , does not provide for such refunds for the reason that contributions are so small that they do not cover the Fund's expenditure on pension benefits .
(d) The enquiry should be directed to the Commissioner of Prisons .
QUESTION NO. 55. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Education: -
QUESTION NO. 53. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Education :-
Whether the erected Technical School will offer courses offered by schools of industries ? If not, is the Government considering the establishment of a school of industries providing the same courses as are available in White, Coloured and Indian schools of industries ? If not, why not?
(i) Whether any teachers have applied for long or special leave in the period 1964 to 31st December, 1968 ? If so, (a) How many applications have been (i ) received and (ii) granted?
REPLY : It is not clear what is mean by " schools of industries " as this type of school no longer exists except at reform schools or schools for committed children.
(b) What are the names of the teachers whose applications have been granted?
(c) For what purpose was the leave granted in each case?
If the question refers to vocational and technical schools then the position is that as from 1970 the subjects , courses and related matters are identical for White , Bantu , Coloured and Indian. It naturally follows that the courses to be offered at the Technical School in Umtata will follow the same lines .
(ii) Whether any of these teachers were paid while on leave ? If so, how were they paid?
REPLY : It is not possible to reply to the question as no consolidated record of leave applications is maintained.
QUESTION NO. 56. Mr. W.C. Singata Justice :-
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In amplification of this reply I would like to inform this House that leave matters pertaining to any particular teacher are kept in the file of that particular teacher and the questioner seeks information dating from as far back as 1964 · from 1964 to 1968. This House can therefore
asked the Minister of
(a) As it appears from the reply of the Minister to Question No. 28 on Tuesday , 3rd June , 1969, that seconded personnel in his Department are given bench work though not legally qualified, will he give an assurance that the service wil. be extended to include African personnel , some ofwhom have even more experience in court work than their European counterparts ?
imagine the staff of my department having to page through about 6,000 files for five years .
CHIEF NDAMASE : lazy?
Public Service , South African Police , Transkeian Police , Department of Prisons ?
Is the department too
(b) If not, why not?
•
If you THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : will agree to more taxation to employ more staff in my department, that might be done.
(c) Are there any colour considerations in this matter?
REPLY : In my reply to question No. 28 I clearly stated that there were 19 Transkeian judicial officers of whom 13 were not fully legally
QUESTION NO. 54. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Finance :448 .
The rest of the question therefore qualified. falls away. Now, when I say " Transkeians " I mean Transkeians.
LOCAL supply and demand and for so long as no shortage of labour is experienced in the Transkei, it would be irresponsible of the Cabinet to burden the taxpayer with unnecessary wage increases .
QUESTION NO. 57. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
QUESTION NO. 60. Mr. B.S. Mnyani Justice :-
Will the Minister explain what progress is being made in the construction of the Tsitsa River Dam as was promised last session?
asked the
Minister of
(a) Whether the honourable member for Flagstaff has been charged ? REPLY : I wish to refer the honourable member to the 1968 Hansard. According thereto the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry replied to question No. 47 on the 21st May, 1968 dealing with the Tsitsa irrigation scheme . No promise was made that a dam would be built on the Tsitsa in the near future and there is still no intention to do so very soon.
d
(b) If not, under what law is he detained? REPLY :
(a) No. The Police have not yet completed their investigation . (b) Proclamation No. R.400 of 1960 . QUESTION NO. 61. Mr. B.S. Mnyani asked the Chief Minister : -
QUESTION NO. 58. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry : -
(a) Why the Transkei Government does not ask for aid from the International Red Cross for the starving Transkei people since the Republican Government is not kind enough to make a gift of mealie grain bags, or
(a) What is your Department doing about the Fruit Growing Project in Osborn and Mtshazi in the Mt. Frere district ?
(b) Whether the Fruit Growing Project is being implemented in other parts of the Transkei as was suggested during the last session of the First Assembly ?
(b) reduce the control price of mealies to the same price it exports mealies i.e. control price less 98 cents . REPLY :
REPLY: (a) This Government has received all the aid asked for from the Government of the Republic of South Africa and there is no need to seek aid from anyone else .
(a) The Department is not aware of a fruit growing project in Osborn and Mtshazi in Mt. Frere district. (b) The Department is giving attention to fruit growing in so far as it is possible to do so or as is dictated by its relative importance in comparison with other work.
QUESTION NO. 59. Mr. B.S. Mnyani Finance :-
asked
the
(b) The Transkei Government does not export mealies and the question therefore falls away.
QUESTION NO. 62. Mr. W.C. Singata Justice :-
Minister of
asked the Minister of
What is the composition of Jabulani ? Since commercial concerns have increased wages of their African employees by at least R1 a month to help them because of the sales tax and the ever increasing cost of living, is the Transkei Government going to do the same to its lower income group workers ?
REPLY :
The following information has been furnished by the Transkei- Ciskei Breweries at Butterworth:-
REPLY :
"The ingredients per hundred gallons of Bantu Beer are as follows :120 lbs maize meal or Brewers grits 48 lbs Kaffircorn malt 0.4 lbs yeast.
(i) It is not clear what is meant by "lower income group workers " but it is assumed that the honourable member's concern is for labourers. This group was accorded a more favourable wage scale and a general wage adjustment of one notch as from the 1st October , 1968 and no further increase is contemplated in the foreseeable future .
Analysis per pint of Bantu Beer :-
Calories per pint : Total Solids Alcohol Protein Lactic Acid Mineral matter Fat
(ii) In this connection it is important to remember that wages, in any given locality, are determined by the economics of 449 .
350 - 400 7% 3% 0.8% 0.6% 0.5% 0.4%
After the complete disposal of the School Boards by the Department of Education, the then School Board secretaries who were later known as District Clerks were gradually removed from their posts and replaced by nonprofessional clerks. How many of those have not yet been removed, in which districts are they and when is the Department removing them in terms of its own policy?
Vitamin B Complex and Vitamin C are found in appreciable amounts. " MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , we have constantly referred to Jabulani as not a proper food and the question asked by the hon. Mr. Singata as regards the composition of Jabulani is also of interest to us . Of the ingredients making up food there are two things which cannot be mixed together and which , if mixed, would cause death to the consumer. We are aware that yeast is used for making bread so that it will rise quickly. We do not put malt into bread. We only use it in brewing beer. If you mix malt and yeast for consumption by human beings this is poison. (Laughter)
REPLY: Ten of the twenty- six former School Board secretaries have not yet been removed. The districts in which these ten officers are serving are: - Bizana , Butterworth, Flagstaff, Matatiele , Nqamakwe , Port St. John's Qumbu, Tsolo, Tsomo, Umzimkulu .
QUESTION NO. 63. Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
Except for the officers stationed at Bizana , Butterworth, Tsolo and Tsomo who will remain in their posts until superannuation , the remaining officers will be removed as soon as suitable replacements are available.
(a) Can a Transkeian farmer buy a Nguni bull? (b) If so, where can one get it?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I might add that it was with great difficulty that the department had to place at schools to teach children, men who had been away from the classrooms for about 15 years . Now, these who will be remaining until they are pensioned off the department felt they were so old that they could not even learn modern ways of teaching.
(c) What is the normal price for a young Nguni bull? REPLY : (a) Yes , but it can only be introduced into the Transkei if it is approved for breeding purposes.
MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman , when the boards were removed the hon. Minister will recall that there were several accusations alleged to have been made against these school board members , and the secretaries were part of the boards. Does the hon. the Minister of Education think perhaps that those who were removed will think they were the niggers in the wood-pile and those who remain are innocent people? In any event, we leave it to the department concerned because they were responsible for this .
(b) Nguni bulls are mainly bred in Zululand in Natal and Swaziland. (c) The prices of these bulls vary. Each breeder charges a different price and the prices will of course vary according to the age and quality of the animal. MR. KUTU : Mr. Chairman, referring to the question I put to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture relating to the Nguni bulls I wanted to know about the bulls we have in Umtata without having to go into Natal and Swaziland. We have others at Port St. John's . It was with reference to those bulls that I wanted to know how one could procure them . We have some at Mount Pleasant here in Umtata. There are bulls there which we would like to use to improve our stock and if they are not of the Nguni breed, what bulls are these which we have?
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, these officials were removed in terms of the Public Service Commission regulations . In any event, the Education Department is concerned with the children. We cannot take a man who is already tottering to his grave to go and give instruction to young children, especially now that there are new approaches and the like .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I am always suspicious that the hon. members across the floor ask questions which they know very much about. Question 63 (b) says : If so, where can one get it ? The hon. member has actually pointed at the places where he can get these bulls. The reply is as follows to the question arising from the replies - that the hon. member should take a walk and go to Port St. John's where he saw the bulls and find out the prices and also goto Mount Pleasant and get the information there .
Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : before you proceed with your agenda I take it that you are going to call upon the House to deal with item 8, the third reading ofthe Transkeian Townships Amendment Bill . THE CHAIRMAN: with motions.
We are now going to deal
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I was going to say before we deal with these matters that my department is not ready with items 8 and 9 which will be dealt with, I think , tomorrow.
QUESTION NO. 64. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education:-
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that
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section 70 of the rules of this House be suspended in order that the hon. member for Kentani , Mr. N.V. Reve , should introduce his motion tabled this morning forthwith before the House deals with motions appearing on the order paper .
the Opposition that the matter be deferred until 2.15 p.m. this afternoon.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second , Mr. Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman , may I crave your indulgence and request that the minds of the members of this House be referred to today's African edition of the Daily Dispatch, page 1 , wherein it is reported that the hon. the Minister of the Interior said in an interview after the debate on the Road Tax Bill that he notes members of the Democratic Party were collecting money from peasants in the Qumbu region and sending it off to help in the war against terrorists . Now, this statement is made as a subsequent outcome of a discussion on this Road Tax bill in this House and we wonder if the hon. the Minister of the Interior could make a statement to this House relating to this report and the allegation that the members of the Democratic Party are collecting money from the peasants in the Qumbu region and sending it off to help in the war against terrorists .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Agreed , so the motion wil be discussed at 2.15 .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, we have no objection to the introduction of this motion but would request that it stand down until 2.15 p.m. so that we may look into it and bring our minds to bear upon the implications of this motion. The motion seeks to affect the Constitution and the membership of this House and we feel that it is too important a matter to be rushed without consideration. We ask that it stand down until 2.15 p.m. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ?
Agreed to. Mr. Chairman, THE CHIEF MINISTER : agreed on what? · because I moved a motion and it was seconded.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : seconded?
Is this request
QQ CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : I second.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: On the request by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would like to make it very clear that it is perfectly clear that it is not the members of the Democratic Party who are making collections . It is certain individuals and individuals are at liberty to do so. They do so on a voluntary basis and if perhaps a member who is doing that is a member of the Democratic Party it is purely incidental . Let me also make it clear that the telephonic converstation with the representative of the particular paper referred to could not have been on the lines that are reflected in the paper . Anyway, the main thing is that it is understood that perhaps one of the individuals collecting was a member of the Democratic Party , but that members of the Democratic Party are busy collecting is not at issue at all. I hope the answer will satisfy the hon. the Leader ofthe Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I think the person to whom the question is referred should be the mover of this motion, because it was specifically directed to me. MR. GUZANA : There is no question of this House refusing leave to the hon. member to introduce this motion because the hon. the Chief Minister has asked that the relevant rules relating to the introduction of motions be suspended and I think this House is in agreement on that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : He did not put it. NICOL MR. GUZANA : In view of the fact that we were anticipating no objection to that motion we make the request that it stand down until 2.15.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, my motion has not been accepted by this House . I think the first thing is to put my motion and ask that the House agrees and then we can consider the proposition arising from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition .
SUBSIDIZATION OF FOODSTUFFS MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move as recorded :" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government, or alternatively on its own, to subsidize such foodstuffs as mealies , Kaffir - corn , etc. , in the Transkei . "
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The hon. the Chief Minister has moved that section 70 of the rules of this Assembly be suspended in order that the hon. member for Kentani, Mr. N.V. Reve , should introduce his motion tabled this morning forthwith before this House deals with motions appearing on the order paper. That was seconded. Does the House agree ?
MR . second.
L.L. MGUDLWA :
Mr. Chairman , I
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, I would regret it very much if the Assembly were to rise before this motion is put in. Firstly, I would like hon. members to turn to the rules of procedure of this Assembly, page 36, where it is stated that the Transkei will remain part and parcel of the
Agreed to.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, I agree to the request of the hon. the Leader of 451 .
Republic of South Africa, where we have plenty of money and where our Transkei citizens find employment as they are still employed even now, working for very low wages applicable to the African people . We have this request, therefore , asking the Republican Government to subsidize foodstuffs such as mealies , Kaffir -corn, etc. The Republican Government has shown clearly that they have sufficient money seeing they are giving money to people outside South Africa such as Lesotho , as they have recently given them 100,000 bags ofmealies . Ifthe Government of the Republic can show such consideration for people who are not taxpayers of this country, how much more should such consideration be shown to us who are taxpayers . The Republican Government has plenty of money. Out of this, money is lent to the XDC to build up the If the people are economy of the Transkei .
traders no longer want to give credit to the people as they used to in the past, because they have been told they are leaving the Transkei. Seeing they are likely to leave in time they are therefore reluctant to extend credit to the African people. The African traders maintain that they have not sufficient capital to be able to bring in more mealies such as the European traders could afford. Most of the African traders have to pay cash for the commodities they get from the wholesalers . If you turn to the Estimates for this year you will find there is an amount of money lying idle there , under Vote 4.F Pauper Relief. There is an amount of R2,000 which can be used in this connection. Further, the barbed wire and the corrugated iron which the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of the Interior brought into the Transkei could be sold and the money used to buy mealies . (Laughter) The Government has assisted us in providing tractors but because of the drought the crop was poor. The hon. member says the people are lazy but I would like to say that it is not because they are lazy but because of the severe drought that the crop is poor. Because of the effect of influx control regulations many of our youths cannot go to labour centres and they are idling at home. We cannot say they are lazy because they are not provided with work. White capital is not being brought into the Transkei for the opening up of industries because you say you don't want it. In these few words, Mr. Chairman, I move accordingly.
starving what will it help therefore to develop the economic side of the Transkei ? People pay R4-25 per bag of yellow mealies in some trading stations and R4-50 for a bag of white The price of mealies has gone up mealies . 25 per cent. The idea of this motion, therefore , is that instead of the cost of mealies being put up by 25 per cent, it should be reduced by 45 per cent on the price before it was increased , The hon. Chief Jozana says this should be done for the benefit of people who do not grow enough mealies. I think he is considering the area of Umzimkulu, or perhaps he feels that he alone can help the Transkei people . (Interjections) I think he should forget that he is not individually the Transkei and, further , he has come into this Assembly not as an elected member. (Interjections )
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the position is simply as follows , but before I give the explanatory note I would like to move an amendment to the motion as given:-
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will the hon. member for Umzimkulu please be quiet.
That all the words after the word " That" be deleted and substituted by the words :- "this Government is aware of the fact that the Republican Government is at present subsidizing foodstuffs to the maximum extent possible and that a lack of funds precludes this Government on its own from subsidizing mealies and Kaffir-corn in the Transkei . "
MR. MAJIJA: In any case he is irresponsible , especially when we are talking about affairs connected with the people. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will you please get on with your motion.
MR. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman, this motion ought to be supported by all elected members, even the members on the Government side . Seeing that the condition of famine in the Transkei is so well known I need not eleborate on this motion. We are waiting in expectation to find out whether they oppose the reduction or the subsidization of the cost of foodstuffs and it will be known clearly whether they are of the opinion that the people should be oppressed or that they should be helped by this Government. Perhaps they will say assistance has already been extended to the people by the relief fund. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: cause you know the truth.
One would have believed , Mr. Chairman, after certain relative motions had been moved and some debate has taken place , that such a view from a discerning mind would have been considered superfluous . The Government as a result of certain requirements that had to be fulfilled made it clear when answering certain questions that the matter was being considered by the Republican Government and the Transkei Government, but some hon. members , especially the hon. member for Engcobo and his colleague from Umtata , have got their heads so full of mealies that they see mealies sideways and upside-down. They cannot see anything else . It would take the generation of the Mnyani family 20,000 years ago to fulfil a promise or a hope that an Ndamse could be a member ofthe Cabinet. I could not be even if you multiplied ten times ten. You are too small to be able to do so. We have to be responsible because these matters The Transkei is part are being considered. of a greater Republic of South Africa and whatever gestures the Republican Government has to
Be-
• MR. MAJIJA: This is very minor assistance which does not cover the whole of the Transkei population. From each area a few people have been singled out for this assistance when a large number of the people is still suffering from famine. As a result of the acceptance of this policy of separate development the European 452.
make towards the Transkei , such a gesture has to be made to any part which is part of South Africa. How can we therefore ever hope that the Republican Government is going to be Father Christmas as far as the Transkei alone is concerned? The trouble of course is that if it were possible as far as some of the hon. members are concerned, the sooner the chaos , the sooner the misunderstanding, the sooner the war, even if of words , will come the better. You will have to wait until your grandson wears your shoes. In order to relieve distress in the districts most severely affected by persistent drought conditions, this Government has embarked on an extensive relief of distress scheme to an amount of R850,000 and when we talk about relief, when we talk about subsidization then it includes quite a lot of things , not only mealies which apparently some of the people have such an obsession about. In addition supplementary food to the value of R300,000 is being distributed to pre- school and primary school children in certain districts in order to further alleviate the economic pressure , but it is still possible for some neo- responsible members to ask for a thing like this.
that no reply could be given to the motion unless and until the motion was introduced to the Legislative Assembly. In passing , hon. members , I will refer you to the Constitution in which you will note that all the districts have chiefs representing them in this Assembly. MR. K.M. GUZANA : If you look at subsection 23 (b) , paragraph (vii ) you will notice that what you say is not correct.
MR. REVE : In section 23 (b ) (v ) it should be noted that only the Kentani district is not represented by a chief in the entire Gcaleka region. This is as a result of the fact that when the Constitution was drawn up there were no chiefs in the Kentani district. There were actually chiefs all the same , but they had not been appointed and by the time the Constitution was passed, if I am not mistaken three chiefs had been appointed. At the present moment there are four , that is why we feel it is rather irregular that commoners or counsellors should go out to represent the people , leaving the chiefs behind. Even if a chief is not an orator his presence is necessary, however, so that he may listen to the speeches of his counseliors . In any case , if there is to be any weight attached to reports of counsellors they must be such reports as are confirmed by the chief. This has been a rather worrying matter to the Gcaleka people , that there is no chief from the Kentani district, and we appeal to both parties in the House to support this motion. We do hope this House will sympathize with us because nó children should be without a father. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Minister may continue after lunch. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I am just about to finish. After all , the hon. member really just wanted to stand up so that I could be aware of his presence this morning . This matter has been thoroughly gone into. These things will become concrete and tangible as time goes on. I want to assure hon. members that the question of relief measures is a question that is occupying the minds of this Government and we do not wish to appear a collection of irresponsible people whenever we make certain delicate negotiations with the Republican Government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. A. XELO:
I second, Mr. Chairman.
MR. K.M. GUZANA : (Mr. Chairman , I feel rather concerned over the position of the Chairman of the House where he is . I would rather he were in the House properly rather than on the aisle where he is . He is surely not properly in the House sitting there , but perhaps he does not want to participate . )
The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to move an amendment that all the words after the word "amend" be deleted and the following words substituted :-
AFTERNOON SESSION MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment.
' section 23 (b) (v) on a motion from the Gcalekaland Regional Authority and accepted by this Legislative Assembly by the substitution for the words " two chiefs" the words "one chief" and by the addition of the following words after the word "Willowvale " " one chief in the district of Kentani"."
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: We shall now adjourn the debate in preference to the application made by the hon. Mr. N.V. Reve . PROPOSED AMENDMENT OF SECTION 23 (b) OF TRANSKEI CONSTITUTION ACT MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the first place I want to thank the Assembly for allowing me to introduce this motion today. The hon. members will wonder why there has been this delay in introducing it and I will first of all satisfy that aspect of the matter . This is a motion which was passed
I hope the gist of the amendment is clear to the House . Firstly, in terms ofthe amendment there will be no increase in the number of chiefs in this House , but that Kentani will have a chief in this House when Idutywa surrenders one seat held by a chief to Kentani , which will then have a seat in this House . Now, Sir, we feel that this is a regional matter which should be dis cussed by the chiefs of Gcalekaland region. The hon. member , Mr. Reve , has indicated that the region has made representations to the
by the Gcaleka regional authority to the Transkei Government and ever since that time the Gcalekas have been awaiting the reply from the Government. It subsequently became obvious
453.
members in relation to the members who are chiefs ? We feel that the amendment does not in any way close the door to representation of Kentani district by a chief in this Assembly. We say : Well and good, but let the chiefs in the region decide that without interfering with the present membership of chiefs and causing an increase in the number. The hon. member then would come here with a motion from the regional authority and I am sure this House would not oppose such an amendment in view of the fact that it shall first of all have been agreed to unanimously by the Gcalekaland regional authority and it will not be increasing the numerical representation of chiefs in this House. In passing, may I mention the fact that it would appear that hon. members do realise that the representation of chiefs in this House should long have been a matter of review .
Government on this matter. It may well be that that was a matter raised in discussions of the regional authority and that someone was sent to make representations to the Government. We feel, therefore , that that is not the background which should motivate the motion moved by the hon. member. One would like to see this matter brought up as a matter for discussion and the decision thereon be embodied in a motion properly worded being sent to this House , and that that motion will be subscribed to by the chairman and the secretary of the Gcalekaland regional authority. In effect, it would mean that the chiefs have agreed upon this amendment. The substance of the hon. member's motion cannot be said to be the same as the substance contained in the amendment which I have moved because the motion that he has introduced here seeks to increase the number of chiefs in the House by giving an extra seat to the Kentani district so that it also has a chief in this House . My amendment seeks to have the matter discussed properly in the regional authority and the purpose ofthe discussion is to find out whether or not the chiefs in that region agreed to the transfer of a chief's seat from the Idutywa district to the Kentani district. If this House were to accept the motion as it stands this would open the door to further interference with the numerical representation of chiefs in the Assembly. Thus Port St. John's might well seek to have a chief representing Port St. John's inthe Assembly and thus increase the number from 60 to 61.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who realises that? MR. GUZANA : You! I am speaking in that way because anybody with sense will realise that there are districts here with a greater number of chiefs represented here than other districts . However , that is not a matter in issue at the present moment and I recommend my motion to the mover of the original motion because it will meet his request quite adequately without bringing about a constitutional change , the constitutional change being merely the substitution of the words and the deletion of the words as contained in the amendment.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is no chief in Port St. John's , only headmen.
MR. G.G. KUTU :
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in standing up to speak on this motion I do not want to commit the Cabinet on this matter because they will , after this motion has been passed, make their own recommendations to the Government, but I feel that as one of the architects ofthe Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 I should educate the members of the House on the intentions of the recess committee . On deciding that the 64 chiefs who were recognized at the time the Transkei Government was established should be members , the intention was that every tribe should be represented by a traditional leader of that tribe . With that committee no distinction was made between elected members and....
MR. GUZANA : This is what would happen in the event of a chief or two chiefs being installed in Port St. John's , and if the hon. the Chief Minister were to tell us the truth, representations have already been made regarding the installation of chiefs there . THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you cannot make representations about the representation of chiefs because you do not want chiefs in this House. If you do we shall oppose it. MR. GUZANA : The representation in some regions is out of all proportion. Take Mqanduli district, for instance , which has six chiefs in comparison with one from Umtata. The next move will be that we will seek to juggle with the Constitution again to secure an even representation of chiefs from the districts. The hon. member has, in moving his motion, made reference to the fact that the counsellors should speak in the presence of the chiefs . THE CHIEF MINISTER : chief.
One chief
I second the amendment.
MR. GUZANA : Automatic. I would not say THE CHIEF MINISTER : "automatic" - between the elected members and members who come to this House by virtue of their traditional leadership. When the Constitution was altered so that voting should be by districts it was found that Port St. John's and Kentani had no representation on a traditional basis and we anticipated that a request of this nature would come to the Government, because in those districts there are tribes who might require that they should have a member representing them traditionally in this House . We regarded the case of these districts as exceptional but since the member for Port St. John's is on the Opposition side and has expressed an opinion that he would not like to have chiefs
their
MR. GUZANA: This is a matter on which we are very much at variance with the hon. member for we believe that this House should be wholly made up of elected members. Why increase the number of chiefs and thus reduce the ratio of the elected members to the number of chiefs , when we should be moving in the reverse direction by increasing the ratio of elected 454.
MR. GUZANA : No, when was the matter of chiefs from Port St. John's ever raised?
sacrifice a member in this House for Kentani. In Kentani there are two tribes - Gcalekas and Ngqikas - and that is why the people of Kentani would like to see that the two tribes should elect one member amongst them to come to this House . Their request is that the number of 59 should be increased to 60. That is the request they have made . They do not say there should be a decrease of a member in one district of the Gcaleka region and I wish the hon. members on the Opposition benches should confine themselves to the request of the people of Kentani which is quite clear. If you desire to make representations for Port St. John's , by the way, where there are no chiefs , you will first of all have to request the Government to recommend to the State President an appointment which is being made by the regional authority. That is the first hurdle , but at present there are no chiefs in Port St. John's . In Kentani there were four chiefs in 1963. There were three chiefs there in 1963 when the Constitution was passed and one was appointed thereafter . That is the question before the House. It is a question of increasing the number of 59 to 60. There is
THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am speaking generally.
nothing bad in that because the Opposition made a request a few days ago to increase the number of elected members from 45 to 64.
MR. GUZANA: We are speaking specifically. You say it was discussed in your caucus .
MR . GUZANA : then?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: I know perfectly well that the Opposition does not want chiefs in this House.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : We could not agree co that and we shall not agree at any other time.
in his district to come to this House , we felt that we need not worry ourselves about Port St. John's . MR. R. MADIKIZELA: now?
Is that the Cabinet
THE CHIEF MINISTER : No, I am talking acout the caucus of the Government party. You know the caucus must have discussed this matter. (Interjections ) No, I say that we on this side of the House , because the members for Port St. John's have expressed the opinion that they do not want traditional chiefs to be representatives in this House.... MR.
GUZANA :
When did he say that?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Numerous times you have said that you do not want chiefs in this House to represent the people. On several occasions you have voted against it.
MR. GUZANA : for it.
MR. GUZANA : We have said they should be in an upper house. We have never said we did not want a chief from Port St. John's in this House .
And why did you refuse it,
We shall continue to ask
THE CHIEF MINISTER : If you continue to ask we shall always discuss the question but the request coming from Kentani is that the number of chiefs in this House be increased from 59 to 60. I think out of the four chiefs in that district at least there should be one in this House . This is in accordance with the traditions of the Transkei. There is nothing bad about it. Every district in the Transkei except Port St. John's has a chief and those chiefs will be present always. Whatever you do to try and change the Constitution it will never be changed · you can rest assured. We shall
THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have, but the representatives from Kentani district have decided that a representative of the four chiefs should come to this House to represent the Kentani district and I thought the Opposition would oppose the whole motion because they are opposed to chiefs . (Interjections) MR. GUZANA : You never understand our thinking - that is the trouble.
be in power until eternity. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have always submitted that chiefs should not be members in this House.
MR. GUZANA : over in five years .
MR. GUZANA : We have submitted that the number of elected members should be equal to the number of chiefs.
Who knows? We are taking
THE CHIEF MINISTER : With those few words, Mr. Chairman, I think the motion from Kentani is a reasonable one and should receive the consideration of members on both sides.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have challenged you that the chiefs on the Opposition benches should resign their seats .
MR. G.G. KUTU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment by the hon. the Leader of theOpposition. Indeed , the motion by the hon. member is very important and we are not in a position to pass this motion to the effect that there should be a chief to represent the people of the Kentani area. However, let us agree on this point - that the number of chiefs in this House is quite high , much higher than it should be. We are not of the opinion that their number should be increased.
MR. GUZANA : So that you have how many chiefs in this House? So that we have THE CHIEF MINISTER : those who remain and would like to represent I was saying that we have two their tribes. district - Ndlambes and Idutywa the tribes in Gcalekas · and neither of those tribes will
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We certainly approve that a chief in the Idutywa area should give his seat up, after consultation, to a chief in the Kentani area so that the number of chiefs representing the Idutywa district be decreased and the Kentani district should have a representative. CHIEF N.S. JUMBA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member in his address used the term "Mkhendeba" and we would he would use another word. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will the hon. member please substitute another word. CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: On a point of order, I would like to know why the hon. member is objecting to the word "Mkhendeba " because its meaning is clear .
MR. KUTU: Mr. Chairman, I am not keen that my time should be reduced in this manner. I would rather explain the meaning of the term "Mkhendeba" . It is not a derogatory word; it is not evil. It means a " dignitary. , (Laughter) All the chiefs on that side and the paramount chiefs and the paramount chiefs on this side are important people. They are all " Mkhendeba". THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Will you substitute another word, please, hou. member. MR. KUTU: I will say "important people " . I have said that I mean important people. (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman , I would like to make it clear that we are not opposed to the motion by the hon. member. It is just that we have one chief at Willowvale , one at Elliotdale and another at Idutywa and we must have a chief replaced The area at Idutywa by a chief at Kentani. at Willowvale must have two chiefs representing it as it is a large area. I can say that in the making of this Constitution the committee responsible for that work had not had the opinions of the people. It was for that reason that some of the districts did not have chiefs representing them. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : THE CHIEF MINISTER : were no chiefs at the time.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
Order, order.
MR. KUTU: According to our custom it is not the chief who makes the laws , it is the people. It is for that reason that we advocate that chiefs be in the upper house and the elected members in the lower house , so that it is the elected members who will carry to the chiefs the laws which have been made by the lower house. The mover of this motion said that it was not a good thing that there should be no chief in this Assembly which will report the proceedings of this Assembly to the Kentani people. Since the time of the Bunga until now the chiefs have not carried reports to the electorate. Only since the inception of this parliament have the elected members been able to report to the electorate the proceedings of this Assembly. The chiefs do not do anything and the people cannot ask for any information from them, whereas we elected members are required by the electorate to report back to them the proceedings of the Assembly. Now the people who do not report these things to the public want to increase their number. Let us reduce the number of chiefs from among them and give the Kentani district one chief. We are desirous that the elected members should be increased to the number of those who come to this Assembly by reason of their positions only and if they belong to either party the chiefs cannot be blamed for that. We must not just bring a number of empty mealie- stalks into this Assembly. (Laughter) MR. T.E. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have been particularly interested in what the hon. the Chief Minister has said, which has not been challenged even by way of heckling. He rightfully termed himself as one of the architects of the Transkei Constitution and in support of that claim he referred to the right of traditional leaders of all the tribes in the Transkei to represent their various tribes in this Legislative Assembly. Thus I am going to confine myself to that trend of thought. Before I refer the hon. members of the House to page 43 of the rules of procedure , I want by way of passing to refer to the remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He says his amendment is aimed at not increasing the present number of chiefs in this House and he refers to the Idutywa two chiefs and he says one of those seats should be transferred to KenAll right, now. Assuming that I was in tani. agreement with him, what would he say to this question I am just going to cite: Let us take the district of Mount Frere mentioned on page 43, subsection (b) (ii) - in respect of Emboland region, two chiefs in the district of Mount Frere. Now, we want to be very fair and have a square deal on both sides. The hon. the Chief Minister as one of the architects of this Constitution has quoted two tribes in the Kentani district, and these tribes are the Gcalekas and the Ngqika section; and in Idutywa district it is the Gcaleka and Ndlambes. Now, if I understood the hon. the Chief Minister very well he talked of the main heads of the various tribes to be represented here , but in Mount Frere district the hon. Chief Strachan and Chief Nomtsheketshe are of the same tribe. I am confining myself
Order , please . In Kentani there
MR. KUTU: Were there no chiefs there at the time? Instead of increasing the number of chiefs in the Assembly let us take a chief from one area to be replaced by a chief in another . The chiefs , too, are not desirous that the number of elected members be increased when we maintained that the number of elected representatives be equal to the number of chiefs , because the chiefs are here by reason of their chieftainship. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The chiefs represent the people too. MR. KUTU: They are not elected by the people. There was no need for chiefs to be in this Assembly when representatives of the people could carry back to them the information of the decisions ofthis Assembly. (Interjections ) 456.
to Mount Frere for purposes of my argument. (Interjections ) All right, what about one Baca chief in Mount Frere transferring his seat to Kentani? MR. GUZANA : region.
They are not in the same
MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA : Let us now remove the argument on a regional basis . Let us talk about the increase or decrease in the number of chiefs in here. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:
willing to give up your seat to a chief in Kentani? We must therefore be truthful and try by all means to solve the issue . In standing up I stand to support fully the motion as proposed by the hon. member for Kentani because he is asking for a right for the original chiefs in Kentani district, particularly when we have heard a speech from the hon. the Chief Minister which has not been opposed by anyone . Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I fully support the motion from the hon. member for Kentani . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment. In the drawing up of this Constitution it was made quite clear that the number of chiefs in this Assembly would not be increased to more than the number laid down. That was done in respect of the position of paramount chiefs . If you look at section 25 of the Constitution, page 45, you will see it was arranged that the total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time. exceed 64 , and if any paramount chieftainship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo , Emigrant Tembuland, Gcaleka, Nyanda or Qaukeni regional authority area or any other region, the number of chiefs representing the region affected shall in respect of the district in which the new paramount chief in question resides , be reduced correspondingly, so that the number of 64 may not be interfered with. I am sorry that this motion seems to interfere with this constitutional provision. Iam quite sure that the mover of this motion was not aware of this constitutional arrangement because if it were so he would be thinking of section 25 (1 ) so that in trying to change section 23 by making the number 60 instead of 59 they should also consider section 25 (1 ) , and if they had considered this and thought of the motion they were bringing before the House they should first have considered these constitutional provisions. The hon. the Chief Minister stated that he was among the people who were responsible for the drawing up of this Constitution, and for the sake of those who were not full acquainted with this I shall read section 25 again. (Read section) This Constitution was built up in Pretoria in the presence of Dr. Verwoerd who consistently stated he did not wish the dignity of the chiefs in this Assembly to be lowered and that that dignity expressed by the person who initiated this Assembly should remain unaltered. He realised the difficulty in the drawing up of the Constitution as to the proportion of elected members and chiefs and decided that a compromise should be arrived at. A suggestion that the number of elected representatives in this Assembly should be 45 and that each district should be represented by an elected member from the royal house was advocated and our Chief Minister opposed such a formula. (Laughter) It was proposed that we accept the 64 which he proposed sothat he and his followers would likewise accept the number of 45. For
Order , please.
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA: You have spoken of two seats from one district and that one seat must be transferred to another district. Why not take that seat in Mount Frere because those chiefs belong to the same tribe ?
MR. GUZANA : In Idutywa and Kentani you have Gcalekas , so the Gcalekas in Idutywa could well forego a chief who will be in Kentani as a Gcaleka chief. MR. KA-TSHUNUNGWA: Your argument is that we should not increase the number of chiefs in the House and now I am giving you a proposition: Why not take one seat from a seat that is redundant in Mount Frere ? Those two chiefs belong to one tribe. MR. R. MADIKIZELA : far-fetched.
The proposition is
It is not farMR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA : fetched. If then we were sincere in this argument, hon. gentlemen, it is of no use coming to the point of regions , because we have done away with the regions . We are now confining ourselves to districts and , in fact, why you now seem to be sceptical of my remarks is because the two chiefs from Mount Frere are both in your party. MR. GUZANA : And the chief and sub- chief from Qumbu are in your party. MR. KA- TSHUNUNGWA: So if we have to be honest in this House and with the people , let us talk about the number of chiefs which is 64. (Interjections ) The people of Kentani are justified in their claim . Those people have a very important historical background. If I have to name the names of these chiefs who are in Kentani you will find they come from the main stem in the main line of the Xhosa genealogical tree and why should you worry then if these people want recognition and representation here ? (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please .
MR . KA- TSHUNUNGWA : It is likely, hon. Mr. Kutu, that you do not understand English. Let me speak in Xhosa. The chiefs in Kentani are most important people according to their genealogical tree. If you accept those chiefs , why do you refuse them a seat in this House ? If you were one of the two chiefs in Idutywa of the Gcalekas and Ndlambes would you be
that reason a representative of the royal house for each district was therefore set aside and today our hon. member is trying to revive that idea and is turning his back on the Constitution that was suggested to us by the originator of this Assembly, the late Dr. Verwoerd. We ought 457.
to respect what we ourselves decided in Pretoria in company with the late Dr. Verwoerd. In this same Assembly there was a motion to the effect that the number of elected representatives be increased and the side led by the hon. the Chief Minister opposed this measure because he argued that they could not increase the number of people who said they hated chiefs and chieftainship. However , today they come with a motion to say that the number in this House should be increased, suggesting an increase in the number of chiefs who already have a larger number. What is it they feel is oppressing them in this Assembly so that their number should be further Kentani is said to be an area of increased? the Kawutas and we have here Kawuta representaIf you look carefully into the number tives . of Representatives in this Assembly and relate it to the number of voters in the Transkei you will find it is too high. (Interjections) I mean that this number ought not to be increased more than it is now in regard to chiefs . The number that should be increased is the number of elected members . (Interjections ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
CHIEF NDAMASE : My hon. friend here says I look down on the chiefs . Ithink he is mistaken. I will give him this example : If I should die I have a son who has no experience . He is quite young. How shall he come to this Assembly when he has no experience of human nature and the world? (Interjections ) We shall not contradict the fact that chiefs are chiefs by divine right and we cannot say that because a chief is a chief by divine right he therefore has all the knowledge he should have . Even in their tribal courts the chief does not pass judgment alone but usually has with him experienced tribesmen to assist him. MR. E.A. MAPASSA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I request all hon. members to think deeply over this matter and have sympathy. Some of the speakers have already stated that the chiefs are the traditional leaders and we who come from the Kentani district cannot be happy when there is no chief representing the people in this House from Kentani district. We are not making a request for an exchange of seats with a chief in the Idutywa district , as stated by the amendment from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I do not believe that when you are in grief and you approach a friend of yours , to give an example - if you have three sons and no daughter and you approach your friend because you have no daughter , your friend tells you you must first kill one of your sons and then he will provide you with a daughter. If you have a loaf of bread and whilst eating it it chokes you, if you ask your friend for tea he will not first tell you to throw away the bread and then he will give you tea. Let us consider this matter openly. I request both sides of the House to deal with the matter as one affecting people and not as one concerned with party politics. The hon. the Chief Minister has explained that in Kentani district there are two different tribes and that is what raises this question. He further went on to explain how our Constitution stands in regard to chieftainship. Supposing there was only one chief in Idutywa and including that one chief the number of chiefs in the Assembly was 59. As we are now appealing to you in such circumstances , how would you advise us?
Order , order.
CHIEF NDAMASE : An hon. member said here that we did not want chiefs in Port St. John's. We are not quite certain that that is true because there have been representations from Port St. John's to this Government that chiefs be installed in this area. We are not sure whether the difficulty experienced in installing chiefs in Port St. John's is due to the fact that this idea came from the Opposition side. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is purely an administrative matter. It has nothing to do with politics . CHIEF NDAMASE: It is a pity that he should say it is an administrative matter because it is the hon. the Chief Minister who encourages the administration in this. We should like self-government conferred on the Transkei to be respected... (Interjections )
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN :
Order, please.
CHIEF NDAMASE : ....and the way we shall show our respect for this Constitution is by respecting the rules and regulations of the Constitution. True, self-government usually has a number of members elected by the electorate. In true self-government we never have members who merely come in by reason of their status , because in this Assembly the elected members represent the views and opinions ofthe electorate .
MR. K.M. GUZANA : There is a sub- chief in Qumbu district. He could drop out and give a seat to Kentani. MR. MAPASSA : are referring to?
Who is the sub- chief you
MR. GUZANA: Chief Matiwane .
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Don't you represent the views of your people when you come to this House? Why are you talking here ?
MR. MAPASSA : He is a senior chief. We are speaking about the Gcaleka region. Why should you now refer to Emboland region?
CHIEF NDAMASE : People should be represented in this Assembly by people who know and feel like the electorate , and the chiefs should come in by reason of their having proved their worth to their people .
MR. GUZANA : A member of your side referred us to Mount Frere , that is why we refer you to Qumbu.
THE CHIEF MINISTER : the chiefs .
Without worrying myself MR. MAPASSA: further about the various questions you have asked me I will leave the matter so that you can think deeply over it. Even a beast grazing on
You are insulting
458.
the commonage later on chews the cud. Sometimes when you make a request a person who has to reply to that request prefers to sleep on it and when he gets up the following morning he is in a position to give a correct reply. Another person, before thinking over the matter, gives a quick reply and when he gets up the following morning he arrives at a different reply. He is a man who is generally said to be listening This is a very to the opinions of his wife . delicate question and should not be taken as a joke . It often happens that when a question is being considered for a person someone else disregards all those questions in realising that the following day they may be in the same boat. When a lame man limps when he walks you sympathize with him, but if you are not a sympathetic person you will not feel sorry for him . Let us come together on this motion and
who are subordinate to the will of the chief are not willing to say anything that is against the opinion of the chief, although they may be opposed to it. For that reason we believe that the people who represent others in the House here should be elected by the people . We feel that the request from the Gcaleka region should first be attended to by their regional authority. As this matter appears to be causing some difficulty I would suggest that you accept the amendment, or perhaps as the Constitution has a number of things arising from it, how would it be if a select committee is appointed to consider those matters ? There are many matters in the Constitution which require attention. I am making that suggestion but I maintain that our amendment should receive consideration.
I leave it in your hands , both sides House . Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Ithink this matter has been discussed sufficiently now and I think it would be appropriate to give a chance to the mover to reply.
agree. of the
MR. N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to speak on the motion brought before us . The hon. member from the Gcaleka region has told us of their difficulty as they want a chief from that region to be a member of this House and it is evident that if that chief is admitted here the number of chiefs will be increased. In meeting his request we on this side say it is a matter to be considered and placed before his regional authority in that as there are two chiefs in Idutywa, one seat should be transferred to the Kentani district. The reson why we submit this amendment is that in our opinion we do not wish the number of chiefs to be increased. Even if this is a new thought, we still do not feel that the number of chiefs should be increased . ( Interjections ) When the number of chiefs has been increased it will make this Legislative Assembly depart from all democratic principles . It is our wish that democratic principles should operate in this House . This is a House of Parliament, in which case it should be similar to other parliaments . All the civilized parliaments have a greater number of elected members and it is the wish of all people that the greater number of members in this House should be elected . All the people are of this opinion. You must not be misled by the fact that the people who The people are chiefs are generally heard.
MR. N.V. REVE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have listened to all the speakers from both sides of the House and have also heard the amendment moved by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. Nevertheless , all the suggestions that have been made do not overshadow the motion. This cannot have a good hearing that when we make a request for something we are asked to cut off a part of our bodies to fulfil the request. This suggestion that one of the chiefs in Idutywa district should relinquish his seat in favour of one from Kentani is not a good one . In fact, we also desire that the number of chiefs should be increased because as it is the number of chiefs is not sufficient. (Interjections) I can see that side is against increasing the number of chiefs . That is quite obvious . I therefore cannot see any difficulty in this motion if we agree that a chief in the Kentani district should be given a seat. THE House is to which hon. Mr.
DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Before the a motion by the hon. Mr. N.V. Reve , an amendment has been moved by the Guzana . I shall now put the amendment.
The amendment was lost by 21 votes to 56 after a division as follows :YESES .
NOES.
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau
Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila
459.
Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr. Mvelase Curnick Ndamse Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr. Milton Masiko Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Mr. Robert Betram Msengana TELLERS : 1. 2.
Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile TELLERS : 1. 2.
L.L. Mgudlwa L.I. Cemane
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
The original motion was carried.
of the parties and the positions we assume tend to be permanent. Would the hon. Minister not supply the clerks with a plan according to which we sit in this Chamber, so that the clerks walk in the first cheque is for the hon. member for Mount Fletcher, and on the right the hon. member for Xalanga. That way, Sir, as soon as the Chairman has walked out we take our seats in the usual manner and our cheques are handed to us as we are seated. At the present moment, as soon as the clerks come in, we tend to scrummage as if we are playing rugby and the sight is far from a pleasant one. It becomes pitiful to see the hon. member for Willowvale sandwiched between two male members of hefty size. If you could attend to that detail, Sir, I think it would suit the convenience and dignity of this Chamber very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 18th June , 1969. WEDNESDAY, 18th JUNE , 1969 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. PAYMENT OF SESSIONAL ALLOWANCES TO MEMBERS MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , may I crave your indulgence , Sir. My remarks are more intended for the hon. the Chief Minister in his capacity as Minister of Finance. I refer, Sir, to the manner in which the sessional allowances are paid to the hon. members. It strikes me personally as detracting from the dignity of this Chamber. It appears the clerks are following a system which might have been very suitable for the Bunga days when the members were seated according to their districts . We sit now according to the convenience of the respective leaders
THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. members , may I ask the hon. the Minister of Finance to say a word?
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I agree with the remarks made bythe hon. member for Ngqeleni .
460 .
TRANSKEIAN ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
zimkulu Road Board was abolished , the functions and the area of jurisdiction of the Village Management Board extended and certain rates imposed. This brought about a situation where neither the Transkeian Territories road tax nor any other tax for roads applied in the Bantu area of Umzimkulu. The amendment now being considered seeks to rectify this, thereby incidentally making it possible to do valuations and the other preliminary administrative work before April next year when I intend to start taxing those properties. The same applies , of course , to, Matatiele where the Divisional Council operates only in the White area. For those members who may not have studied the Ordinance properly and who may think that there is already a Schedule B, I can perhaps explain that the Ordinance , in so far as it applies in the Bantu area of the Transkei , was amended by the Transkei Roads Act, 1965 , (Act No. 5 of 1965) when, inter alia, Schedule B as it existed before , i.e. describing certain roads , was Clause 1 (b) repealed. Section 3 (2) of the ordinance has up to now excluded the property of Bantu persons from Transkeian Territories road tax. During the second reading the principle of taxing Bantu and White properties alike was accepted , thereby ensuring that this source of revenue would not be lost to the Transkei either suddenly by the repeal of the Transkeian Territories Road Tax Ordinance , or gradually by the transfer of properties from White to Bantu persons in the process of implementing separate development. Although this amendment will make it possible for the Government to collect Transkeian Territories road tax from Bantu property-owners in the Transkei next year , I wish to repeat that the intention with this amendment is solely to enable my department to commence with the preparation of valuation rolls in readiness for a new property tax next year. I move the adoption of section 1.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I second. Agreed to . MR. R. MADIKIZELA: Mr. Chairman , just · before you make the necessary adjustments , on behalf of the Opposition I wish to lodge a formal protest against the Deputy Chairman taking the Chair when this particular bill comes up for discussion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Under what rule? MR. MADIKIZELA: He took a partisan stand in the debate the other day.... THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : rule are you objecting?
Under what
MR. MADIKIZELA: ....and that indicated to us that he did not have the impartiality which belongs to a discussion of this nature. THE CHAIRMAN :
Can you quote us a rule?
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I don't think the hon. member across the floor is serious. There is no motion before this House and I do not think the Chairman should take what he says seriously. It is a joke. MR. MADIKIZELA : protest, Mr. Chairman.
It is a very serious
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Under what rule ?
There is an THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : amendment here by the hon. Mr. N. Jafta.
MR. MADIKIZELA : decency .
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wish to object from the beginning to the moving of this amendment. This amendment seeks to attack the whole principle of the bill because the whole bill is based on this section 1 (b). The amendment says that the words should be deleted which are intended to be the backbone of the bill. Without these words there is no bill. Now, I will draw the attention of the hon. member to rule 111 , read with rule 113: "An amendment may be made to a clause or a new clause added , if it be relevant to the subject matter of the bill or pursuant to any instruction, or be otherwise in conformity with the Standing Rules; but if any amendment be adopted which is not within the long title of the bill, the committee shall amend the long title accordingly and report it specially to the Assembly: Provided , however , that no clause or amendment can be proposed which is in conflict with the principle of the bill as read a second time. " Now, rule 113 says the principle of the bill shall not be discussed in committee , but only its details . Now, Mr. Chairman, I submit that Clause 1 (b) is the bill itself and once that clause is deleted then there is no bill before the House . I therefore object to the
Under the rules of
House in Committee On Clause 1 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in moving the adoption of section 1 of the Transkei Road Tax Amendment Bil , I wish to make certain observations with regard to both sub- sections (a) and (b) . As you are aware , Sir, the Transkeian Territories Road Tax has always been payable only in 24 districts. Umzimkulu and Matatiele have never been included in the districts described in Schedule A of the Ordinance . These two districts were served by a Road Board and a Divisional Council respectively, which were empowered to impose their own property taxes and to impose the Transkeian Territories road tax in these areas would have resulted in double taxation for road -building purposes. In other words , the Transkeian citizens in those districts paid this road tax under these two bodies. Subsequently the Cape Provincial Administration passsed Ordinance No. 3 of 1964, whereby the Um-
461 .
THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I should like to ask the hon. members of the Opposition to observe this discussion. They seem to be busy with something else.
moving of this amendment by the hon. member as it is completely against the rules of this House. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: member anything to say?
Has the hon. On Clause 4 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, in terms of the Constitution Act the Transkeian Territories road tax, being a law dealing with direct taxation on property in the Transkei , became a law to be administered by the Transkei Government, but only in so far as it applies to the Bantu areas. As the bill before the House deals with the further amendment of Ordinance No. 1 of 1935 , only in so far as it applies in the Bantu areas of the Transkei , it was decided to take this opportunity of making it quite clear who is the corresponding authority for the Administrator in the Transkei when it comes to administering the measure in areas other than the White spots . I move the adoption of this section.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman, while I appreciate the explanation by the hon. the Chief Minister I have a few remarks relating to what he has just said. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, before the hon. member can go on to what the hon. the Minister of Finance said in motivation of this section, he must first of all indicate to this House what his attitude is towards the objection taken in limine by the hon. the Minister of Finance . MR . N. JAFTA : Mr. Chairman, as I have been listening to the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister I feel I must withdraw the amendment and I therefore apply for permission to comment on what he said . According to his remarks he is ready to make a valuation on the properties bought by the African people in Umzimkulu and Matatiele districts , as well as in other districts of the Transkei . In reply my remark is : Why hurry this matter to such an extent?
Clause 4 put and agreed to. On Clause 5 THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Clause 5, Mr. Chairman, is the short title and date of effect. Here it should be explained that although the amendment only takes effect next year my department will nevertheless , according to common law, be empowered to take all the preparatory steps required to put the measure into effect next year. I move the adoption of clause 5.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is still discussing the principles of the bill. I object to any discussion of the principles. The principles were attacked during the second reading. MR. R. MADIKIZELA: your statement .
Clause 5 put and agreed to.
He is replying to
The long title and the whole bill put and agreed to.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : That was motivation.
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, I move that you report progress.
MR . N. JAFTA: Why was this put before us if he does not approve of our replying to it?
House Resumed THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : motivation. You need not reply to it. THE DEPUTY discussion?
CHAIRMAN :
It was THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the bill before the House has been passed without amendment.
Any further
THE CHAIRMAN: reading?
MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , relating to the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister this morning in connection with Umzimkulu and Matatiele , this is what we would like to be noted · that the assessment committee shall not take into regard the prices paid by the XDC for these properties but will consider the valuation that existed before.
What date for the third
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : 19th June, Mr. Chairman.
Thursday ,
SUBSIDIZATION OF FOODSTUFFS The debate was resumed.
Clause 1 put and agreed to.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon, members , inwhole-heartedly supporting the motion by the hon. member for Engcobo , I wish to condemn vehemently and strenuously the amendment which has been put by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. This amendment is particularly directed against the very heart of the motion. By subsidizing these foodstuffs
Clauses 2 and 3 put and agreed to.
we are talking about the very life of the people. Now, the amendment says the Government is
THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is for the adjustment committee . Now you are being sensible . Mr. Chairman, I just want to inform the hon. member across the floor that there is a valuation ordinance in which the principles of valuation of all properties are laid down.
462 .
of the White person? (Interjections)
aware of the fact that the Republican Government is at present subsidizing foodstuffs to the maximum extent possible and that a lack of funds precludes this Government on its own from subsidizing mealies and Kaffir -corn in the Transkei. I have certain allegations to level against the amendment by the hon. Minister. Firstly, it brings the Transkeian population near death, it deprives the labour force of the Transkei of public business and it deprives them of a right to live . In substantiation of what I have just said I think I am going to put before you something very important - that is , the verb "to live" , and it is four- lettered . If you are not educated I will help you. This is the word LIVE . Now, that entails subsidization of foodstuffs because we are labouring under the three Scourges : Drought, starvation and hardship. Those may be imposed upon us either by human beings or by natural factors . Now, if one spells this word LIVE from back to front it becomes These three scourges , EVIL. (Laughter) starvation, hunger and hardship , cause a man to indulge in malpractices such as crime . We get hardened criminals ; we get men asking for alms in the streets , which means the lives of the people are nothing else but VILE. I thought, in fact, when the mover moved this motion that the House would be unanimous . I was surprised to find the hon. the Minister of the Interior putting an amendment to it. It appears now that he is trying to immerse our clean child into a drain of slop water. I regard this motion as a clean child in that it is to enable our people to live . The State President said : Live and let live . People cannot go to the industrial centres if they are hungry. Why the people are hungry is because of hardship. On that account we appeal to the Government to withdraw this amendment and we must all be of one mind in support of this motion because it is a motion which is a real motion. No one is ignorant of
THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF JUM BA: I agree with him in his contention that he is also a human being as well as a White man, but I want to remind him that the reason why is more than our customs . The hon. member also complained of the export of 100,000 bags of maize to other countries and wanted to know why these could not be imported into the Transkei . Would he agree to my suggestion that the plots of land we hold should be given over to people who can make proper us of them , and that we then depend on industry? I hear him say that we are objecting to such a plan, but I say they are the ones who are objecting. Does he consider these other services which the Government of the Transkei , in conjunction with the Republican Government , have rendered ? I am referring to things like feed for the stock. Is the speaker so selfish that he thinks only of his own person to the detriment of his own animals ? (Interjections) OPPOSITION MEMBER : from TB?
Do animals suffer
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. members must please listen to the speaker. CHIEF JUMBA: In regard to their complaints against the ravages of TB , doesn't the hon. member realise that these animals are fed in order that they may be safe from attacks by TB? Another point raised is that White traders today are reluctant to give credit for maize . I would like a further explanation on that point , because as far as I know you go to a trader, you tender security whether it is a beast or something else , you get your maize and then you proceed to the labour centres . On the same point of traders being reluctant to give credit I will come nearer home and give the case of a Bantu trader who, when he is transporting goods to his trading station, is assisted by the locat tribesmen so that he can transport whatever is required. Another point raised in connection with drought and famine , I would suggest in regard to that matter that he should provide for such conditions himself. I understood the speaker to complain against the late provision of tractors .
the fact that the people of the Transkei are poor. Why therefore are they not being assisted by the subsidization of foodstuffs ? Refuse to let the people die ! We don't want whatever flocks we have in the Transkei to come to an end. With these words , Mr. Chairman, I whole - heartedly support the motion by the hon. Mr. Majija. CHIEF S.N. JUMBA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the motion in itself is quite in order , except that it fails in one respect because it mentions only the subsidization of maize . In speaking in support of the amendment I wish hon. members would remember that the Government has for some time been handling this matter. The amount of R15,000 which was previously mentioned in the House is not confined to the subsidization of maize only. The mover of the motion suggested that he would rather see a decrease in wages if the amount of money spent on foodstuffs is reduced . He concedes that in the Republic there are a lot of people who have to be maintained and whose wages are low. Does he want the Assembly to grow with him? If he is at all observant he will have
MR. L.Z. MAJIJA : I did not say that . CHIEF JUMBA: If the hon. member now disputes what he himself said I think perhaps he was not sober when he made his remarks . Is that not subsidization , when the tractors were sent to assist people to plough during the drought? In what position would you find yourself if this assistance had not been extended ? If you want to think only of maize I will remaind you that one of your own members spoke a great deal about the planting of pumpkins only. If you want to find fault, find fault with your own self.
MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak on this motion which requests the subsidization of foodstuffs . This motion comes before the Assembly because of the position in which the African people find them-
noted that today the school - children are fed . They carry mugs to school . Has that nothing to do with this motion? (Interjections ) I heard someone asking if. that is not White children. Does he at all compare his livelihood with that
463.
selves. Throughout the history of the Transkei we have never had a drought such as we are experiencing now . This means that the whole of the Transkei has been impoverished to an extent we have never experienced before . Maize and Kaffir-corn form the staple food of the Bantu of the Transkei. It is for that reason that we are asking that these particular staple foods be subsidized . There is not a single home which does not depend for its livelihood on these two main foods . We see buses running daily to the trading stations with loads of these foodstuffs in order to enable the people to remain alive . It is for that reason we thought it fit to bring this motion to the Assembly, which ought to be fully aware of the position appertaining in the Transkei . During this very year the Bantu people of the Transkei have suffered serious losses of stock as a result of the drought. If these losses are calculated in money it will be found they amount to over R17 to R18 million. The people who were already a poor community have been even further impoverished by this drought. How can we then stand in the way of a motion which aims at helping these people to live ? One speaker mentioned that efforts are being made to feed the children and the stock, but we maintain that those efforts will not alter the fact that in many homes the people go to bed hungry. There is no other place to which we can take this cry of the people apart from this Assembly which ought to consider it with sympathy. We therefore appeal to the hon. Ministers to think over this matter, discuss it among themselves and communicate with the Government of the Republic to save the Transkei . There is no need to speak long on this very clear matter. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.
by the Government for supplementary feeding of stock. The best thing you can do is to come closer to the Government and obtain assistance. When mealies are subsidized it is to help a person who is working . The Government is giving assistance and people are making a good living on account of the tractors . This Government has consulted with the Republican Government to aid the people . You heard the statement in this House one day that we will only have to pay half the charges for the tractors and the other half will be paid by the Government. You have heard it said that money was granted to the schools so that the children could be fed, but you still say that that money should be withdrawn and maize subsidized . If you want to do anything you must first examine it closely. Imagine , today the Government has increased the amount of the invalidity grants . Kindly note that if those people are not provided with money they cannot make a living. The Government has consulted with the Republican Government suggesting that these people should be paid monthly. Mealies have been made available in all the stores because of the influence of the Government. We should all beseech the Government to see that we do not run short of food so that even the lower classes should make a good living. It would appear that the hon. member did not closely scrutinize this motion because on the one hand it is constructive , whereas on the other hand it is not at all helpful to the poor people of the Transkei. MR. A. RAZIYA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not think there will be any member in this Assembly who can stand to oppose this excellent motion by the hon. member for Engcobo, except a member who wishes to deceive himself and who thinks he will be chastized by his father, or unless he is like a chameleon which lives in the long grass . Yes, all of us who are receiving a stipend of approximately R80 a month may assert that there is no famine. Further, while we are here we are given a subsistence allowance of R4 a day.
MR . M. MASIKO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I associate myself with the amendment. The hon. member who moved this motion would seem not to have closely examined the points now raised by the Government side . As far as the Transkei is concerned the Government has already made some progress . The people working out in the districts have dishes on their heads. When we saw this assistance
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: are you talking about?
being given to the people we were very pleased because we did not know how these people would manage to make a living. Just think , Mr. Chairman, when these people are receiving 25 cents without having any overseers to see what work they are doing! In all these districts these poor people are getting some assistance through the mercy of the Government. When you think of what you are applying for - the subsidization of maize and Kaffir- corn where do you think these poor people will get money to purchase these commodities ?
What
MR. RAZIYA: I maintain that some of these members will now live in iron- roofed houses which they did not have before , forgetting the electorate from which they come and the people who are living in suffering and difficulty, people who subsist on water only, or perhaps have to go and live on grass seeds like a bird. I wonder who among you would be courageous enough to speak out in the reserves in the strain in which you speak in this Assembly. Following the argument of the hon. member from Tabase who opposed this motion, although he is aware that many cattle have died in his area, who, when he gets to the electorate will say : I did not support this amendment, it was merely because the leader of the Government moved it. What are you doing with the hon. the Chief Minister seeing that whatever you yourselves have said and maintained , you turn round when you get to the electorate and tell them he said these things ? Why do you throw sins on a person who has not committed any sins?
That is why we are MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: asking the Government to subsidize them. . MR. MASIKO: When the work has been done out in the country, where will they get money to purchase these things ? It would appear you are making a laughing-stock of the poor people in the country when you expect them to purchase these commodities .. As far as the cattle are concerned we see bales of fodder stacked up 464.
WTHE
CHAIRMAN :
car never attain iindependence I maintain we ve can because I feel you would kill us if we accepted it....
Come to the motion.
MR. RAZIYA : All I mean is that the people f the Transke of i are suffering from severe Even the Europe w famine. ans ho find there are people opposing a motion by the hon. Mr. Majija are wondering why. Some members , ing to run away from the actual motion , trying speak about the feed provided for cattle. Others say people have collected many pumpkins. How many pumpkins are they referring to? How many people can live on 30 pumpkins ? Why must people consider their own individual requirements when we are talking about matters affecting the people as a whole? There are people in Umtata here who are crying tears because they have nothing to live on . I would regard these as the tears of hungry people . What is wrong with appealing to the Republican Government which has constantly assisted the Bantu people ? Why oppose a request of this nature ? You want to begin speaking unfavourably about the Europeans when you get to the electorate and you say you are being oppressed by the White people. How will they know anything when you have not made representations to them? I appeal to you to speak the truth. One speaker said the people are earning 25 cents a day and he maintains that is a living wage. Those people are being led by the chiefs who are in this Assembly now. You will find this appertaining in certain areas only, but there are many of those areas which are not getting anything. All we know is that the price of maize has gone up because of the drought. (Interjections ) Today a bag of maize costs R5. I do not want to refer anything to the hon. the Minister of the Interior. He lives in the location here and he eats butter every day. A person who lives on butter cannot appreciate the difficulties experienced by the poor. Indeed, the people had great confidence in you . It will be taken that now you have reached the position you are in.... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order , order. 100
THE CHAIRMAN : dence .
MR. RAZIYA: ....because you want to destroy whoever opposes your views . I am quite certain "Let us take these some of you would say: transport buses away.. Those buses are not They are Raziya's buses . " They are mine . If there were no people to use public buses. those buses the buses would not be there . (Interjections) The question is asked what do I pay my employees . I appeal to the hon. members to approach the Republican Government to give us this subsidy we are asking for and when you go out of this Chamber don't say we are not serious . Tell them this if you want to know: Among my employees are some earning R120 a month. Some boys who have just left school I am paying R6 a week. Employees who know nothing and who have still got to learn are getting these salaries. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order. Come back to the motion. MR. RAZIYA : All we want to say is that we have been elected by the people into this Chamber and the people think we are speaking on their behalf. I appeal to you that at times we must think like old people. We must not behave like small boys who are bullied . The people are hungry. I appeal to you to think and consider them . MR. E.A. PINYANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I cannot see why we should take such a long time over such a minor matter. The citizens of the Transkei are the subjects of the chiefs and we should allow the chiefs to see to the requirements of their subjects . The chiefs sympathize with their subjects and the Transkei Government is finding no difficulty in making provision for the citizens ofthe Transkei . You must just follow and see what the Government is doing for its people . All you people on that side are our subjects and you must obey our instructions . You on the Opposition side should take off your hats to us . Therefore , my friends , allow the Government to provide for the people and if you do so everything will come right. I hear you complain of the drought and you say it is because the country has done wrong. It is you who have committed a wrong and you should be converted. What is of vital importance is that the Government is looking after the interests of the people. All you are aiming at is to go back to the people and say you are speaking on their behalf and yet everything that has been done and provided for the people has been done by the Government. You are our children and we ought to put you on our backs and walk along with you , therefore you need not worry about the position of the people .
107
903 MR. RAZIYA: You are quite right in saying I am a fool because indeed you are very highly educated, but your folly is commensurate with the education you have . (Laughter) Ali we maintain is that the people of the Transkei are hungry . We are appealing to you to ask for a subsidy on maize because we are hungry and we know that immediately we walk out of the door here you will turn round and say we merely said this because we fear the White people. (Laughter) A person who is not a danger is one who speaks the truth as it is. A person who says one thing today and the next day just the opposite is dangerous . We have a huge location here in Umtata. What do you think the people in this location live on? They live on maize . Where is the employment for that? There is no employment. (Interjections) You have closed the doors against their avenues of employment. We appeal to you to go to the warm-hearted and kind-hearted European people and ask for maize from them. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. MR. RAZIYA :
Don't talk about indepen-
The debate was adjourned .
I will speak my mind fully.
The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. 465 .
AFTERNOON SESSION
have felt that we were replying to what he knew the position already to be. Further, among the statements made by the hon. the Minister of Education on the 7th March in the magistrate's office , he said in order to meet this approaching famine tractors would be made available to enable people to grow winter crops . After he had made this statement we went out addressing the people at meetings, advising them to stop their usual habit of letting the stock run free in the fields but preparing themselves to grow these winter crops as the hon. Minister had promised, but we discovered that the tractors were only made available in July at the beginning of spring when it is too late to grow winter crops. Whilst people are starving as a result of this famine the Government is demanding from them the fee they are liable for for the use of the tractors . The Government states that 50 per cent of that money must be paid by 31st July this year and in September or November, before the ploughing season, the remaining fee must be paid so that by that time they will have paid a hundred per cent of what they owe, before
The debate was resumed. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the mover of the motion to reply. MR. B.S. MNYANI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have been offered the privilege by the mover of the motion to reply on his behalf. I should like to point out that in bringing forward this motion we were not just trying to waste time in appealing to the Government to subsidize foodstuffs. We are not merely asking for this subsidy on maize only but on food generally. South Africa produces a very fair amount of maize if we have not had a drought or something similar, so much so that the country is usually placed in a difficulty as to where to find a market for its produce. To prove my statement this country is sometimes compelled to sell its maize produce to the eastern countries at a figure lower than the production costs . Here is a cutting I took from the Natal Mercury of the 21st November, 1968. "White mealies have been sold for export at an average loss of about 96 cents a bag. In addition, 12,500,000 bags of yellow maize have been sold for export at a loss of about 98 cents a bag, bringing the total loss on maize exports to nearly R20 million. Seeing we have had to export mealies at a loss such as is indicated, can we not therefore say that the Republic of South Africa has given away R20 million to people outside the country, whereas that is the produce of a country that belongs to us all. This is done while the African people in the country are suffering from severe famine and starvation, especially now when we are passing through a period of severe drought. We do not feel we are wasting time to talk on a motion such as this and by making this appeal to our Government to consult with the Government of the Republic to subsidize food production. On the 7th March the hon. the Minister of Education summoned a meeting at the magistrate's office in Umtata and among other things he stated that in view of the difficulties faced by the country they would consult with the Republican Government to see that a reduction was made in the case of mealies . We are now coming to the end of June and we have not had a report on that consultation, nor do we see the fruits of that promise , but when we are trying to remind the Cabinet of this great need, the hon. the Minister of the Interior maintains
they begin to plough for this new season. By saying that help has been extended to people we are told we must pay back the money in two instalments only. During this debate we quoted the words by one very high Government official who said that during the last five years of selfgovernment in the Transkei, the Transkei has been experiencing great poverty and in so saying he was not being partisan to any particular political idea, but he was being impartial. We are witnesses to this , too, because we are suffering from TB as a result of hunger. As the hon. the Minister of the Interior says , the Transkei is now a springboard. I am afraid by the time he springs the population of the Transkei will have died as a result of TB. We appeal to the Government side that the Cabinet must not be afraid to carry forward our requests. Suffering from famine is not being foolish. Atthe present moment this country is receiving a very high price for their gold in overseas markets, the gold which we feel is a product of our country because we do not feel our country is only the Transkei, but the whole of the Republic of South Africa belongs to us all . THE CHAIRMAN: yourself to the motion.
Hon. member, confine
MR. MNYANI : We are going to open new mines and that is why we appeal to the Government for more money. All our people working in these mines have not had any increase in their wages to enable them to buy mealies. We on this side of the House feel disappointed when we make an appeal for assistance and we find there is opposition to that appeal. We are humbly appealing even for an increase in wages.
that we are just wasting time. Fortunately, we found that the honourable the CommissionerGeneral spoke on this matter very favourably when he gave us an address last night. Before he set us free to go and help ourselves to the meat and other foodstuffs he had provided, he pointed out that the people in this country are starving and he appealed to us not to forget to inform the electorate that he is aware of this situation and is in sympathy with the people. While P we slept last night with our bellies full of the meat and other edibles we 1 hand enjoyed at Abraham's Kraal , there were many people who could not sleep because of hunger. I am quite certain if the honourable the Commissioner-General were present here when we were discussing this motion he would
THE CHAIRMAN : The question is a motion . by the hon. Mr. L.Z. Majija, to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. Mr. C.M.C. Ndamse . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, just before you proceed there is a matter I would like to take up as to whether or not this amendment is proper · whether it can be regarded 466.
as an amendment or a counter- motion. It seeks to substitute words after the first word of the original motion, namely " That" and it would mean that there is nothing of the original motion which is left if this is taken as an amendment. In my view this is a counter- motion as it seeks to leave the word " That" which is the first word in the original motion. In my view that is not the intention of an amendment , because this merely substitutes for the whole motion.
seeks to be part of the original by substituting words . It does not become an amendment when it wipes out all the words except "that" . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It has not wiped out all the words. " That " is remaining. MR. GUZANA : That is not an amendment it is a substitution. " That " cannot mean anything standing by itself, and therefore you have here an amendment which is in effect a countermotion.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I believe that my hon. friend across the floor refers to rule 72 of the rules of this House . Sub- section ( c) reads : "An amendment may take one of the following forms : (i ) to leave out one or more words of the motion; (ii) to insert one or more words in the motion; ( iii) to add one or more words at the end of the motion; ( iv) to substitute certain other words for certain words contained in the motion. (d) an amendment shall be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed and shall not seek to extend the scope of the motion. " Now, these rules do not say how many words should be substituted. It says you may delete one or more words.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It is like "consider the advisability of". What does that mean alone ?
MR. GUZANA : " That" by itself can be the beginning of a sentence making a positive averment or a negative averment and by itself it has no meaning , therefore anything which seeks to substitute words for words following after "that" becomes a counter-motion. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, the rules do not say that the words or word that remains must mean anything. I would understand if all the words were removed , but, as I say, there is a word that remains . You have had motions in this House which say "to consider the advisability of" and you usually cut it off there. What does that mean by itself? It is a mere phrase which is meaningless standing by itself in as much as the word "that" is meaningless standing by itself.
MR. L.L. MGUDLWA : But not all .
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You are correct - not all. That amendment has not removed all the words . It has left one word - " That". So I do not see how we can say this amendment is out of order.
MR. MGUDLWA: But that does not improve the scope of the motion.
THE CHAIRMAN : I shall rule that this is an amendment to the motion. Now the question before the House is whether all the words after the word " That " in the original motion should be deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : It says it must be relevant to the motion and this amendment is relevant. That is my submission , Mr. Chairman.
MR . GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , an amendment
The words were deleted and substituted by the words proposed in the amendment by 71 votes to 23 after a division as follows :NOES.
YESES.
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Mhlabuvelile Hlamandana Mr. Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr. Columbus Madikizela Mr. Ntibane Percy Bulube Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr. Starke Dokolwana Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Gwebizilwana Lowell Sigcau Chief Mlambisa Harland Sigidi Acting Chief Zenzile Magida Mr. James Mzimkulu Dinizulu Mr. Justice Ntlokondala Mr. Roli Erasmus Mapassa Mr. Nonxuba Viviene Reve
Chief Zandizile Havington Zulu Mr. Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr. Godini Gordon Kutu Mr. Zinyusile Lewis Majija Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Mr. Candulwandle Walter Singata Mr. Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr. Knowledge Mzimkulu Ndoda Guzana Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Ramsay Madikizela Mr. Henry Mafukula Mafini Mr. Madlavana Clifford Ndamase Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Chief Mbovana Sandy Majeke Mr. Skampule Campbell Mnyila Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Mr. Madangatye Albert Raziya 467 .
Mr. Bangani Mnyani Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile
Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Miss Stella Nomzamo Sigcau Mr. Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mrs. Zoleka Adelaide Mzozoyana Mr. Sekake Moshesh Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Chief Majeoa Solomon Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Frank Zibi Mr. Masiu Osias Khatali Mr. Colly Dabula Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu E. Mtirara Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Mr. Milton Masiko Chief Sigidi Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Sophonia Moshesh Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala Chief Mtet'uvumile Buchanan Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr. Tembekile Enoch ka- Tshunungwa Acting Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Matubeni Dinwayo Mr. Sitshixo Hamilton Dumani Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev. Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika Chief Nyangilizwe Sidima Jumba Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Petrus Jozana Chief Bekiwonga Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr. Sphiwa Lenford Baleni Mr. Libertas Isaac Cemane Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Mandlenkosi Abraham Botha Dumalisile Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau Mr. Robert Betram Msengana
TELLERS : 1. 2.
R.B. Msengana H. Zulu
TELLERS : 1. 2.
L.L. Mgudlwa L.I. Cemane
TOTAL 23
TOTAL 71
The motion as amended :- " That this Government is aware of the fact that the Republican Government is at present subsidizing foodstuffs to the maximum extent possible and that a lack of funds precludes this Government on its own from subsidizing mealies and Kaffir-corn in the Transkei " was carried.
visability of requesting the Republican Government to allow wives of Africans working in big cities to stay with their husbands if they wish to do so. " Mr. Chairman, this House will remember that I am abstracting this motion from the influx control regulations . When I was discussing the question of influx control I found that the doors were shut against Bantu people going away from home and so I merely abstracted from those regulations the plight of the wives of the men working in these cities. This is a very thorny question among the people. When the wives are prevented from visiting their husbands this promotes a very unpleasant mode of life. It is a set-up which disrupts families and homes and causes many families to go bankrupt and to
PERMISSION FOR WIVES OF AFRICAN EMPLOYEES IN URBAN AREAS TO REMAIN WITH THEIR HUSBANDS
MR . N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to put forward the motion in my name as it appears on the order paper:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the ad-
468.
liberty to do so . Municipal councils by regulation have allowed these womenfolk to visit their husbands , but they must not go and live there permanently. Some people are not aware of the situation affecting families in the rural areas who have been left by their parents. We have experience of men living in these towns with Take for example the question their wives. of the police who are transferred from one centre to another and they are accompanied by their wives . At the end of their service such policemen find themselves a homeless group of people. At the very end of their active life they are required to start afresh to erect a home for their families out in the reserves . We Bantu people have our laws and customs . Take families who live with their parents and move from one urban area to another, and ask yourself when they will ever know the customs of their tribesmen. It is quite clear even among the members of this Assembly, those of them who have lived in these municipal areas not knowing the customs and procedures of their tribesmen greet their chiefs in such terms as " Hello , chief, how are you man?" - and a young man greeting a paramount chief will say : "How is it, chief, man?" (Laughter) We are children of the soil; we have grown up in rural areas . How can we learn how to use the soil if you advocate that we go and live in municipal areas ? If I leave the rural areas and live in the town I lose my right to the homestead site as well as to my arable allotment . By this motion are you making an effort to bring to an end the life of the people as it is known to them according to their customs ? I am quite certain that even the mover of the motion was not aware that womenfolk are allowed to go to these labour centres if they follow the correct channels . Indeed , there is no need for me to speak at length on this because it is so clear.
become impoverished , and even harms the spiritual life of the people. It further results in a husband who is not allowed the company of his wife to be compelled to have two homes , so much so that as a result it has come to be regarded as quite acceptable among the African people, whereas the cause is that the doors are shut against the womenfolk joining their husbands in the work centres . Seeing that the shoe is pinching the African to this extent, I am persuaded to believe that those in power are not as conscious as they should be. Among the White people the position in which we Africans are placed is a thing that cannot be approved of. In order to see and realise fully the evil effects of this control, if the European employees in Umtata were to be told that their wives must go and live in Pretoria then they would realise the evil of this regulation. THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me. The Members must please be quiet while the hon. member is speaking. MR. JAFTA: It is only in that way they could be made to realise how very painful this situation is to the African. They would realise without doubt the painful position in which the African is placed by these regulations . In Langa in Cape Town there is an area called Bachelors ' Quarters and these bachelors are men of our age who have left their families at home. By this regulation these bachelors are bachelors in name only, whereas they have families at home. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members must please pay attention to the speaker .
MR. JAFTA: As this is a very difficult matter to control , even the police who are appointed to try to stop the men from visiting the women's quarters have found it absolutely impossible to control them, so much so thatthey now turn a blind eye to this . This motion is very clear and it is not necessary for me to elaborate on it. So clear is the idea of the motion that all that remains is for us to appeal to the Cabinet of the Transkei to hold consultations with the Republican Government to open the doors in this respect. I move accordingly .
MR. L.I. CEMANE : I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman. MR. H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it is true that power corrupts and When a absolute power corrupts absolutely. government, because of power , can strike an attitude such as the one stated here by the last speaker, subjecting a whole people to that indignity of, shall I say, illegitimate birth-giving and the Government countenances such a position, one then does not have to look far to find why our very Ministers do not live withtheir families There are two types in their own quarters . of workers in the urban areas - casual workers from which you derive this R1 registration fee , and there are those on the permanent staff who are able to get to their homes in the rural areas by their leave regulations, and this leave is usually anything between 14 and 21 days and you think he can be a husband to that woman ! There is this moral injustice - you go and fetch somebody's daughter , a young girl, and you make her your wife. After teaching her to be a wife you then go away and leave her for twelve months . Is that not moral cruelty? May I say that this has gone further where a young woman, say, from Umtata gets married to a Pretoria or Cape Town man and is told she cannot enter
MR. H.H. ZIBI: I second the motion. MR . S.K. NDZUMO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move this amendment to the motion: That all the words after the word "Assembly" be deleted and substituted by the words :"the existing facilities whereby wives may visit their husbands who are employed elsewhere are sufficient to provide for the settling of family matters and that lengthy absences from the Transkei by whole families will result in severance of ties with their homeland. " Mr. Chairman, as I have already stated , facilities provided to enable the wives to visit their husbands in the labour centres are sufficient. If the womenfolk of the Transkei appeal and seek permission to go to the labour centres according to the regulations they are quite at 469.
that area by regulation. From what is said now it shows that our Government is keen on encouraging such a state of affairs, and every parent who loves his daughter sees to it today that that child qualifies for some profession because of the stupid husbands who leave them to go to the urban areas . Say a husband is employed permanently in town and he has a wife who is a professional person and she must go on working. In other words , that child receives education and the husband is keen on the woman continuing to work. Say she is a graduate. She must get back to the reserves and give up her job when she could continue to work in the urban area and help her husband. What I mean is that you are stopping her from living in the urban area with her husband where she could use her degree. (Interjections )
section (b) no person may enter or remain in the location or Native village without the permission of the officer in charge . By this I mean that whoever wishes to visit a municipal location or area is not forbidden to do so because the pass-holder will go to the municipal office and get a permit to allow him to remain there for a specified time, together with his wife, and at the end of the term allowed he can go and apply for an extension. (Read section 10 (b) and (c) of the Urban Areas Act) What is it that you are actually looking for, seeing a permit is made available for a wife who wants to visit her husband? Say one thing - namely, that you wish your parliament here to order or instruct the Republican Government as to what it should or should not do. (Interjections) mU ul THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Io fine art
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MOSHESH : I have read the regulation to the effect that any wife is not forbidden to go and live with her husband. I can tell you that the father on the other side was employed in the mines and he left his wife here at home. Perhaps because you are sitting with your backs to that wall you do not realise there are womenfolk , above you. I have shown clearly that the womenfolk who are cooking for you now are those in the gallery above you, not your wives. (Laughter) I wish you would tell me what they think about you, as when you are in here you say you want your wives to be with you and all the time they are listening to you. (Laughter) Why do you leave your womenfolk behind? You could have brought them with you because there is no regulation forbidding them to come to Umtata. You have left your wives at home and when you come to the Assembly here you keep company with the womenfolk of Umtata here.AG
MR. ZIBI: Why must she stay here ? (Interjections) Why marry them then? Why not let the woman stay at her own home? Now, the question is that there is no longer accommodation in the urban areas . There is accommodation but we are not allowing these young girls to join their husbands. The last speaker has just said that there are channels by which a woman can be allowed to join her husband in the urban areas, but how many applications have been turned down? The amount of raiding by the police in the urban areas of people classed as defaulters because there is need for them to be with their husbands has to be seen to be believed. It is unfortunate that in this Assembly we have husbands who merely want to live with their wives for the sake of having children only, and not to enjoy a homely family life with them. (Interjections )
THE CHAIRMAN : Stop your r conversation, please, hon. members.
THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
MR. MOSHESH : Isay there is only one thing A woman's leave your womenfolk at home . place is at home. Look after your children, look after your stock and property while you are out to find employment and keep your homestead. If you are keen to have a wife you will get a wife right here in the urban areas. ( Laughter) Evidently it is you who want your wives now that you want a regulation that these wives must be allowed to go , whereas the law does not forbid them to come into the urban areas. If a person wants to go permanently to the urban areas, let him do so and leave his chief behind. Now you contend that the Government should so regulate things that a husband can keep one foot in the labour centre and the other at home. Exactly where will such a person be standing? Is he a person under his chief or is he a person who lives in a municipal area ? According to the law of God no man can serve two kings. I am speaking quite well because the hon, member for Qumbu is also a preacher in his church. How does he preach to the people ifhe maintains that people must serve two chiefs? There is no regulation that prevents a wife from visiting her husband or a relative , but you wish your Government to make laws for the Republican Government, whereas at the same time you wish....
MR. ZIBI: It is really disappointing to note that people whom we regard as having reached a certain level of civilization are still holding on to these ideas. Yes , it is true some of these people are just away just for a month or two, but take the case of a man who is away several years running. Is that a moral situation? I strongly support this motion, more so in the light of the many divorces that are now taking place, and these hon. members want the position to be encouraged that our young girls must be divorced by their husbands . MR. S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the amendment by the hon. member of the governing party. I can only speak according to the Sotho saying which says that women remain at home and we go to work, because even where we are going we will find wives. Now, as I speak, (Laughter) several of the hon. members in here have left their wives at home. The women here cook for them and that makes true the statement I have just made that it is a saying the Sotho language. I do not know what is behind the mind of the mover in this motion, whether he wishes the womenfolk to go and live permanently with their men in the labour centres because according to section 9 of the Urban Areas Act, sub470.
man, hon. members , I move that the bill be read a third time.
CHIEF G.M. MABANDLA: On a point of explanation, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, what I want to say is if perchance you are married and after you are married you have to go to work, when you are away at work it is found necessary that your wife has to join you where you are working, do you mean to say that that is not permissible ? Don't you realise that many divorces emanate from such a state of affairs ?
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.
Agreed to . The bill was read a third time. TRANSKEI TOWNSHIPS AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING
THE CHAIRMAN: Sit down. CHIEF MABANDLA: answer that question.
I want the speaker to
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Townships Amendment Bill, 1969, be read a third time.
MR. MOSHESH : I am sorry the hon. member has made the remarks he has made , because I have read section 9 of the regulations to him, where a wife may be given permission to visit her husband.
THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Isecond , Mr. Chairman.
Agreed to. CHIEF MABANDLA: They obtain permission with difficulty, so they are not permitted.
The bill was read a third time. ADJOURNMENT OF THE ASSEMBLY
MR. MOSHESH : I have replied to all you are saying. There are womenfolk in these urban areas and if you are keen to marry you will find a wife there. You must further know that there is nothing which brings about peace like women do. If I wish to live happily with the Tembustribe I will do that easily by marrying a Tembu daughter. (Laughter)
THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , at this close of our first session of the second Legislative Assembly of the developing State of the Transkei we can look back to the past years of existence of our young government with pride and satisfaction that the African people of the Transkei have contributed so much to the maintenance of peace and orderliness in our common country, the Republic of South Africa. This is attributable to the people charged with the administration of our reserves . At this juncture , may I congratulate the paramount chiefs , chiefs , headmen and their counsellors for the part they have played in the maintenance of peace and orderly administration.
THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious that the hon. members are suffering now from mental fatigue and I therefore move that the House adjourn until tomorrow at 11 a.m.
The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 19th June , 1969.
MEMBERS : Hear, hear. THURSDAY, 19th JUNE , 1969 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Little note has always been taken of the valuable contribution made by these officers towards the peaceful life of our country, but the police would not achieve the success they have managed to achieve if these traditional leaders were apathetic towards the maintenance of good government. No government can succeed in its control of the affairs of the country while the people over whom it rules remain unco- operative . As head of the Transkei Government I wish to place on record the appreciation ofmy Government for the co-operation it has received from the citizens of the Transkei despite economic difficulties which are always the characteristic feature of any developing country. These economic difficulties can be solved when all the people charged with the development of any particular country exert themselves to any given duty loyally and conscientiously, with a spirit of patriotism . The notable achievements of the Transkei Government during the short period of its existence have given a challenge to White South Africa and the world at large to give a verdict of their judgment whether the policy of separate development evolved 21 years ago by the Nationalist Government has not been vindicated . The African
Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. PAYMENT OF SESSIONAL ALLOWANCES TO MEMBERS THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to inform you that as a request was made yesterday that members should be paid in accordance with the seating plan, it appears that the request was received too late for this session as all arrangements had been made that the members should be paid in accordance with their districts . I hope the hon. members will be patient and next session their request will receive attention. Today , after we have closed , the members should seat themselves in accordance with their districts . TRANSKEIAN ROAD TAX AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING THE MINISTER OF FINANCE :
Mr. Chair471 .
people are amazed that after a long period of their political and economic suppression prior to the application of this new approach to the solution of our racial problem , there should still be White people who say too much is being done for the African people . We wish that this mediaeval concept of race relations could be stamped out of South African society comprising both Black and White - Black and White people who are striving very hard to achieve peaceful interdependence in our motherland, South Africa. South Africa is the focus of the whole world and its people must be careful of their actions and the damaging utterances that sometimes come out of their mouths. The Transkei has ceased to be the anthropological field where all races studied the development of what was a few centuries ago regarded as part of the Dark Continent of Africa. It is a State with a modern democratic concept of government. I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. members of this Assembly for the high tone they have maintained throughout their deliberations. I wish this tone will always be maintained in order to show the world that Black South Africa has come up to a standard of all races. I would be failing in my duty as head of the Transkei Government if I did not convey the thanks of this Legislative Assembly to the Government of the Republic of South Africa for the financial assistance that they have given to us , and also for the administrative assistance that the Republican Government has given us through the able , experienced officials that have been loaned to us. No administrative machinery has in any country been able to maintain such a high standard in the handling of its financial and the ordinary routine of administration . This is attributable to the efficient, zealous and ever -willing loaned officials that have been placed at the disposal of the Transkei officials , and I wish to pay tribute to our Transkeian citizens who have been charged with such a heavy duty of looking after the interests of the people of our country as a whole . I refer to our able administrative officers . I wish to pay tribute to our stenographer who has remained with us in this Chamber on chilly, warm and windy days unceasingly. She has had to carry on the job she is doing with a smile. The thanks of this Assembly also go to the representatives of the Press in the galleries for the moderate tone of their papers towards the deliberations of our Assembly, and I wish to thank the Elata Printers for the hard work they have performed in seeing to the documents which have to be laid before this Assembly day in, day out. Last but not least, the thanks of this Assembly go to the interpreters and also to the messengers of this House for all they have done towards the smooth running of our Chamber. We also convey our thanks to Radio Bantu for informing the country in such a very humorous manner about the deliberations of even members who have gone to partake of Jabulani. • (Laughter) Before I sit down, Sir , allow me also to thank the Chairman and Deputy Chairman and the secretaries ofthis Assembly for the duties they have performed to make our deliberations a success . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon.
members, I want to add my word of thanks to all the officials of this House, to the seconded officials to whom the hon. the Chief Minister has paid tribute and has conveyed our deepest appreciation for the services they have rendered us during the past six years. I do not think I am called upon to name them as he has named them. I need only say how grateful we are for their services to us . Sometimes Ihave wondered how Mrs. Muggleston has been able to cope with some of the alcoholic aberrations that are uttered here , but whenever I pick up our Hansard to read it she seems to have infused some clarity into confused thinking. (Laughter) I do not know how we would cope if we did not have her diligent and loyal services to this Assembly. We regard the seconded officials just purely and simply as officials in the administration of the Transkei and we lay no time limit as to their service which is highly appreciated both by the Government and the Opposition , and by the public of the Transkei. We pray that their integrity and devotion to duty and sense of responsibility will be contagious characteristics which will touch our African personnel in the Public Service , for we look forward to a future when the African will be able to render service as a civil servant to everybody, irrespective of race or colour . We are thinking and hoping for a day when their integrity will recommend them to posts of responsibility throughout South Africa. The hon. the Chief Minister has warned us to be careful of what utterances we make. I agree with him entirely, and this warning goes out to every racial group in South Africa . We are sometimes shocked that in the middle of this century there are still men who can refer to a Black Man as a " Kaffir " and yet life in South Africa is so interwoven by race relations that it is impossible to carry on without goodwill of all the racial groups living together in South Africa . Whatever achievement has resulted from the Transkei experiment can be attributed to the fact that Whites and Blacks and Coloureds have been working together harmoniously, and to contemplate a day when one racial group will say: "I am withdrawing from this progressive evolution" is to think of a day of disaster ahead of us. Let me congratulate South Africa as a whole for the economic spurt which has characterised the last six or seven years of our development. Not so long ago there was a break-through in the discovery of petroleum gas near Plettenberg Bay, 40 miles off the East Coast. These are indications of a growth that is based on the interdependence of the races in South Africa. Last but not least, may I express our thanks to the honourable the Commissioner -General for his presence here today and for previous attendances at this House. And here I want to repeat what he said to us when he invited us to a braaivleis at Abraham's Kraal , lest some other members of the public missed it. He expressed great concern over the drought conditions in the Transkei and revealed to us how sorely he was touched by the starvation of the people in the Transkei, and pledged his utmost assistance to the African people in the Transkei in order to relieve these drought conditions. We are thankful to him for this fatherly concern for the inner man of the Transkei. I am hoping that next year we will all
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come back to start afresh in our legislative activities and I wish each and every one of you a happy Christmas and a prosperious New Year. (Laughter) I wish to do this before I draw out my political fists when I go out to report to the electorate , lest when Christmas comes I have changed my mind about it. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this session of the Assembly be prorogued until next year.
MR. GUZANA:
I second, Mr. Chairman.
The Assembly adjourned after the singing of " Nkosi Sikelel'i-Afrika " and " Morena Boloko Sechaba sa Hesu" ,
14
す
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TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY - REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1969 Tuesday, 27th May , 1969 (at 9.15 a.m. )
RULE 147 (b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.
PRESENT. As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof:-
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Mr. J.J. Muller, Officials in attendance; Assistant Chief Auditor , representing the Controller and Auditor-General , accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl, Senior Auditor .
(b) On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure . When the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee.
Rule 147 (b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly and the Chief Minister's announcement constituting the Committee were read. The Chairman welcomed members and officials.
ANNOUNCEMENT. · 24th April , 1969 : That the following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts :-
The Chairman called upon the Chief Representative of the Controller and Auditor - General to explain the functions of a Sessional Committee on Public Accounts . The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 10.15 a.m. until Wednesday, 28th May, 1969 at 9.15 a.m.
Mr. R. Msengana - Chairman, Messrs. L. Cemane , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Matters referred to the Committee.
Wednesday, 28th May, 1969 (at 9.15 a.m. )
28th April, 1969 : Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1967-68 tabled. Referred to the Committee in terms of Rule 147 (b).
PRESENT.
REPORT OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS 1969.
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor accompanied by G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor were in attendance. The Committee proceded to the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. of the Transkei for 1967-68 .
Your Committee, having considered and examined the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1967-68 referred to it, and having taken evidence, which it submits herewith, begs to report that it has no observations to make upon them.
Mr. Muller examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until Tuesday, 3rd June , 1969 (at 9 a.m. ) Tuesday, 3rd June , 1969 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT.
R. MSENGANA. Chairman.
Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , L. Cemane , V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase.
Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, Umtata. 6th June , 1969.
Messrs. J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor accompanied by G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor and E.F. Niksch, Secretary for Interior were in attendance .
PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. The Committee resumed the consideration of the Report of the Controller and Auditor- General on the Appropriation Accounts etc. ofthe Transkei for 1967-68.
PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS , appointed in terms of Rule 147 (b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee consisting of Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , L. Cemane , V.S. Reve and R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase.
Messrs. Muller and Niksch examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned
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appropriated by the Legislative Assembly for the administration of the Transkei , and the annual estimates of expenditure , prepared by the Cabinet, shall be submitted by the Minister of Finance of the Transkei to the Legislative AsIn other sembly for appropriation .
at 9.40 a.m. until Friday, 6th June , 1969 ( at 9 a.m. ) Friday, 6th June , 1969 (at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT.
words, the Legislative Assembly has to approve of the spending of the public moneys as proposed by Executive Government.
Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , L. Cemane , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. Messrs. J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor, accompanied by G.C. van Zyl, Senior Auditor, S.W. Pienaar, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and C.T.P. Deysel , Managing Director of the Meat Processing and Marketing Scheme were in attendance.
(b) The Controller and Auditor - General of the Republic, who is independent of Executive Government and only responsible to Parliament, shall examine , enquire into and audit the accounts of the Transkeian Government, including those of Lower Authorities in the Transkei , as well as those of all accounting officers and all persons entrusted with the receipt, custody or issue of public moneys , stamps, securities or stores . The Controller and Auditor-General and his representative therefore act as the watchdogs of the Legislative Assembly of the Transkei in seeing that the public moneys are spent in accordance with the latter's wishes . The results of the audit carried out by the Controller and Auditor -General, on behalf of the Legislative Assembly, are conveyed to the latter in his annual report, in which are also published the accounts of the services approved of by the Legislative Assembly for the particular financial year. These accounts , termed "appropriation accounts " , are required to show: -
The Committee proceeded to the consideration of the Report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral on the Appropriation Accounts etc. of the Transkei for 1967-68 . Messrs . S.W. Pienaar and C.T.P. Deysel were examined. On the motion of Mr. Madikizela.
That the Chairman report the Resolved : Resolution adopted by the Committee. The Committee deliberated and at 9.45 a.m. adjourned sine die. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE . Tuesday 27th May, 1969 (at 9.15 a.m.) PRESEN T.
(a) every sum appropriated by the Legislative Assembly for any particular service , (b) the amount actually spent on such service , (c) explanations, by the accounting officers concerned, of the causes of any variation between the expenditure and the amounts voted , and (d) an explanation indicating how the balance on the grant shown in the previous account has been adjusted.
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), V.S. Reve, R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase . Messrs . J.J. Muller , Assistant Chief Auditor and G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor were in attendance. 1. Chairman) Mr. Muller, as there are four new members onthis year's Sessional Committee on Public Accounts would you be kind enough to explain the functions of a Public Accounts Committee ? - (Mr. Muller) Mr. Chairman, the following detailed statement was read to the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts on the 8th June, 1965, by Mr. Manley, present Chief Auditor , Bantu Territories - I quote:-
In this way the Legislative Assembly is enabled to complete its cycle of control by having the results of the financial administration of Executive Government, as reported to it by the Controller and Auditor-General , examined and reported on by its Sessional Committee on Public Accounts who, in terms of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkei Legislative Assembly, shall be appointed by the Assembly as soon as possible after the beginning of each session and whose order of reference , i.e. the order by which the Committee is appointed, shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure . It is furthermore provided that when the report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral is received by the Transkeian
" 1. PRINCIPLES OF PARLIAMENTARY CONTROL. As has been stated by a former Controller and Auditor-General, good parliamentary control over the finances of the State is the most secure foundation for sound administration in a democracy. This principle , viz . that Parliament, and not Executive Government, shall have control over the State's finances , laid down in the Republic of South Africa Constitution Act, is likewise applicable in the Transkei as it is provided in the Transkei Constitution Act that: (a) The Transkeian Revenue Fund shall be
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Minister of Finance , it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee.
(2) The Committee should , when deemed necessary, carefully scrutinise the departmental systems of control over, and the accounting for, the expenditure of public moneys to ensure the maintenance of financial regularity.
In this connection it may be mentioned that the Republican Exchequer and Audit Act , No. 23 of 1956 provides that:-
(3) The Committee should refrain from attempting any enquiry into, or the reopening of, questions of the general policy of the Government since such matters should more appropriately be dealt with on the floor of the House by means of debate or through questions to the responsible Ministers. Moreover, questions of policy are "beyond the strict province of accounts and audit " (Durell's Parliamentary Grants , p. 119).
(a) The Controller and Auditor-General shall as soon as possible , but in every case within seven months after the close of a financial year , examine the State's accounts and transmit them , together with his certificate and report, signed by him, to the Minister of Finance who shall cause the accounts and the report to be presented to both Houses of Parliament within seven days after their receipt by him , if Parliament be then in session, or, if Parliament be not then in session, within seven days after the commencement of its next ensuing session.
(4) The Committee should , as far as possible , refrain from interference in methods of administration unless it has good reasons for suspecting grave abuses in the management of the public finance (ibid. , pp. 19, 129 and 138) .
(b) If the Minister does not, within the prescribed time , present to both Houses of Parliament any report made by the Controller and AuditorGeneral, the latter shall forthwith transmit to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Assembly copies of such report, which shall be presented to the Senate and the House of Assembly by the President and the Speaker respectively.
4. COMMITTEE'S PROGRAMME OF WORK AND AGENDA. Although it is the Committee's prerogative to decide what evidence shall be obtained and who shall be called to give the evidence , it is normally guided in this respect by the Controller and Auditor-General or his representative who draws up a programme of work for consideration by the Committee. The attendance of witnesses (normally the accounting officers of the departments concerned, the Controller and Auditor -General's representative and, where considered necessary, a representative of the Treasury) required to give evidence before the Committee , is arranged by the Committee Clerk in consultation with the Audit staff. This also applies to the agenda for each meeting. Before the date set for each meeting copies of the agenda are handed by the Committee Clerk to the members of the Committee and witnesses.
2. COMMITTEE'S MAIN FUNCTION. The main function of this Committee will therefore be to examine and enquire into the comments made by the Controller and AuditorGeneral in his report, and also the appropriation and any other accounts published therein. In so doing the Committee will have power to take evidence but its investigations will have to be confined to the matters which arise out of the report and the accompanying accounts referred to it by the Legislative Assembly.
5. PRIORITY OF UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE .
3. EXTENT OF COMMITTEE'S INVESTINGATIONS.
As any items of expenditure reported as unauthorised by the Controller and AuditorGeneral require validation by an Act of Parliament, it has become customary in the Republic for the Select Committee on Public Accounts to examine all such items at its first meeting with a view to ensuring the introduction of the necessary legislation at an early date. A similar procedure by this Committee is accordingly recommended. It is obviously of great importance in the public interest and essential for the success of good parliamentary control that the reasons for incurring expenditure which was not authorised by Parliament should be thoroughly investigated by its Select Committee on Public Accounts .
During the 1964 session of the Union Parliament the Chairman informed the members of the Select Committee on Public Accounts at one of its meetings that he had given careful consideration to the extent of the examination of witnesses and desired to appeal to them when putting questions to bear in mind the four main considerations which he considered should be observed by the Committee in its examination of the report of the Controller and AuditorGeneral viz . (1) The Committee should in the main direct its examination to satisfying itself that the money voted by Parliament has been applied to the purposes for which it was provided and has been spent with due regard to economy.
Soon after such a meeting, it wil be necessary for the Chairman to present the Committee's 476.
report containing its recommendation on the unauthorised items of expenditure , to the Legislative Assembly who will then consider it as early as is possible. When the Committee's recommendations have been adopted , a Bill to regularise the expenditure in question will be introduced by the Minister of Finance . In this way the expenditure will then be duly appropriated by the Legislative Assembly. 6. COMMITTEE'S AIMS .
The aims of a Select Committee on Public Accounts are primarily to retain order and system in the financial machinery of the Government and to maintain regularity, efficiency and economy in the financial administration by all departments of State. This Committee therefore virtually has in its keeping the Transkei's system of public finance and will consequently always have to be watchful to see that the established principles in this regard are adhered to in all respects . The Committee is not bound to examine every accounting item or to comment on every aspect of financial administration for a particular year under review. It is also not bound by any definite rules as to the subject and substance of its reports . 7. COMMITTEE'S RESOLUTION AND REPORT. The Committee will most probably find it necessary to comment in its report tothe Legislative Assembly on certain matters it has investigated . Such comments are termed "resolutions" containing the Committee's conclusions and recommendations . The resolutions desired by the Committee are normally drafted by the Controller and Auditor- General or his representative and submitted to the Chairman for perusal before being brought before the Committee for consideration. In this connection it should be noted that the resolutions must be based on the facts contained in the Controller and AuditorGeneral's report and the evidence given before the Committee. The Committee's task for a particular session will be completed when it has , through its Chairman, presented its final report to the Until any report has Legislative Assembly. been tabled the proceedings of the Committee are confidential.
In this connection it may be mentioned that, as a result of a Resolution passed by the Public Accounts Committee in 1952 , these replies by the Republic's Treasury are at the commencement of the session each year, tabled and printed in conjunction with the full text ofthe Resolutions to which they refer , for the information of Parliament and also included in the printed reports of the Select Committee on Public Accounts for that session. In the Resolution, just referred to , the Select Committee inter alia remarked as follows : " These replies by the Treasury are important documents and are intended to convey the considered view of Executive Government in reply to the matters raised Qon behalf of Parliament by the Committee. They indicate the action taken or to be taken by Executive Government in implementation of such recommendations as are accepted and, where not accepted , give a reasoned reply for the non-adoption thereof. " In those cases where the previous Committee's recommendations have been accepted it will be the duty of the Transkei's Treasury to take such action as is necessary on behalf of Executive Government. If measures of a purely administrative nature are necessary, action will usually be taken forthwith but if legislation is needed to implement the Committee's recommendations , arrangements will be made by the State department concerned to include the legislative proposal in an appropriate Bill introduced into the Legislative Assembly during that session. 9. ACTION WHEN COMMITTEE'S RECOMMENDATIONS ARE NOT ACCEPTED BY THE EXECUTIVE . In the event of any of the previous Committee's recommendations not being acceptable to Executive Government the reply should set out the reasons therefore. It would then be for the incoming Committee to review the matter and, if considered necessary , to take further evidence and to vary, amplify or reaffirm the previous recommendation. In order to reach finality in such cases the procedure devised by a Public Accounts Committee and adopted by South Africa's House of Assembly is as follows :-
8. TREASURY MINUTES .
"When on a point of importance a recommendation made and repeated by the Committee has been rejected by Executive Government for two sessions in succession, the matter, after full investigation in the early part of the third session, should be the subject of a special report by the Committee to the House for decision.
Although it is not customary for the House of Assembly to consider the Public Accounts Committee's reports , other than the one relating to unauthorised expenditure , referred to earlier , it has become an established practice that after the reports have been printed by order of the House , the Treasury is required to prepare on behalf of Executive Government the replies to the several resolutions contained in the Committee's reports . These replies will be tabled in the Legislative Assembly by the Minister of Finance early in the ensuing session and will be referred by the former to the incoming Sessional Committee on Public Accounts for consideration.
The procedure thus ensures that the House of Assembly and not the Executive Government, should have the final say in those cases where its Select Committee on Public Accounts cannot come to an agreement with the Executive Government on any matter relating to the State's Finances. Should any such cases arise in the Transkei ,
477.
the adoption of a similar procedure by the Legislative Assembly and its Public Accounts Committee would resolve the dispute. "
to
that all movable property in the 26 districts referred to in section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act 48 of 1963, the ownership or control of which, on the 1st April , 1964 , was vested in the Government of the Republic or the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope and relating to matters in respect of which the Legislative Assembly in the Transkei may make laws, be vested in or transferred to the Government of the Transkei and that
If any member of this Committee would like ask questions on the subject, please do. Wednesday, 28th May, 1969 (at 9.15 a.m. ) PRESENT.
a certificate signed
Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), V.S. Reve, R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase.
(a) in the case of movable property, the ownership of which was vested in or had been acquired by the Government of the Republic, by the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development; or
Mr. Muller examined. STATUTORY APPROPRIATIONS (PARAGRAPH 5 , PAGE 2) READ WITH REGIONAL AND TRIBAL AUTHORITIES (PARAGRAPH 5, PAGE 23.)
(b) in the case of movable property the ownership or control of which was vested in or had been acquired by the Provincial Administration of the Cape of Good Hope, by the Secretary of the said Administration, to the effect that the movable property described in such certificate is vested in or has been transferred to the Government of the Transkei in terms of the Proclamation, shall be conclusive evidence of such vesting or transfer. J.
2. Chairman . ) Mr. Muller would you please inform the Committee of the latest developments? Mr. Chairman, the (Mr. Muller) Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development confirmed in a minute, dated the 12th May, 1969, to the Controller and AuditorGeneral, that his Minister had decided that the amendments to the Transkei Constitution Act 48 of 1963, should be held over until the 1970 Parliamentary Session and trusted that the audit of the accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei by the Controller and AuditorGeneral would be continued as heretofore until the position is legalised during the next Session of Parliament.
The issues of the required certificates are awaited .
VOTE 3 - EDUCATION - GRANT- IN - AID TO TRANSKEI AMATEUR SPORTS ASSOCATION, R3,000 (PARAGRAPH 1 , PAGE 10) .
TRANSFER OF MOVABLE PROPERTY TO THE TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT:-
4. Chairman. ) Mr. Muller, has any action been taken? - (Mr. Muller) Mr. Chairman on the 7th January, 1969, I drew the Secretary for Education's attention to the fact that the amount of R3,000 paid to the Transkei Amateur Sports Association during 1966-67 and which was credited to the Ngangelizwe Sports Stadium Construction Account remained unutilised as at 31st March, 1968 in fact the Account reflected a credit balance of R3,886.30 as at that date. I pointed out that in their representation dated 29th August, 1966, for financial assistance , mention was made that an estmated amount of R3,000 was required for the erection of a canopy for the Grandstand, conversion of one room under the Stand into a cafe -teria with the necessary equipment, resurfacing (all weather) of six tennis courts and the erection of a fence to mark off the athletic track from the Grandstand. I also drew attention to the fact that a Transkei Bantu Sport Stadium Trust Account (No. 22011 ) is also maintained in the books of the Transkeian Government, which Account, with accrued interest to 31.3.68 , reflected a credit balance of R2,054 . 04 at that date (last recorded expenditure on 18.10.65). In reply I was informed on the 25th February, 1969 , as follows :-
(i) South African Bantu Trust - Vulindlela furniture factory, Umtata (paragraph 13 (1), page 4. ) (ii) Republican Government Departments (paragraph 13 (2), page 4) read with footnote to paragraph 1, page 17.
3. Chairman . ) Mr. Muller, any further information you may wish to offer? - (Mr. Muller) (i) Mr. Chairman, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development remitted an amount of R128,368.22 to the Transkeian Government during January, 1969, being the credit balace in their accounts in respect of the period during which the South African Bantu Trust: acted as agent for the Transkein Government viz. 1st April, 1966 to 31st March, 1967. As regards sundry debtors , sufficient details are not yet available to enable the Transkeian Government to recover outstandings. Audited final accounts in respect of the period concerned, are also not yet available . In this connection I may mention that on the 12th September, 1968 , I drew the attention of the Secretary, Department of the Chief Minister and Finance to the fact that any delay by the South African Bantu Trust to remit the credit balance in their accounts in respect of the factory would of necessity result in a loss of possible interest. (ii) Proclamation No.49/69 issued by the State President on the 12th February, 1969, directs
"It now appears that from information received from the Transkei Amateur Sports Association that their original estimate of R3,000 for the erection of canopy over the Grandstand and the other ancillary works was somewhat on the conservative side . It now 478.
appears that the work of providing the canopy alone is estimated at about R6,000 .
(a) Would you kindly advise the committee as to the extent of the unfavourable report submitted by the departmental officers concerned ;
In the circumstances the Transkei Amateur Sports Association proposes that the funds standing to the credit of the Construction Account be utilised to effect general improvements to the facilities at the stadium . Tenders have been invited for the work and a tender for R3,574.00 had been received . Treasury is being approached for approval of the proposed work. As to the amount of R2,054.04 lying in the Transkei Bantu Sport Stadium Account, I have to state that this office was not aware of the existance of these monies. From discussions with officials of the T.A.S.A. it appears that the fund at present in trust is the residue of funds made available by the Rotarians for the provision of sports facilities for the Umtata people . As to the utilisation of these funds I have been informed verbally by the honorary secretary of the T.A.S.A. that these funds will be utilised for the further improvement of facilities at the Ngangelizwe Sports Stadium over and above the envisaged expenditure mentioned in paragraph two above. " Tuesday 3rd June , 1969 ( at 9 a.m. ) PRESENT. Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman), L. Cemane, V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor, accompanied by G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor and E.F. Niksch, Secretary for Interior in attendance.
REVENUE SERVICES, VOTE 4 (PAGE 11 ) : SOCIAL PENSIONS (PARAGRAPH 1 ) 5. Chairman) Mr. Muller, is there any further information you may wish to offer ?- (Mr. Muller) Yes , Mr. Chairman, in response to a minute dated 3rd July, 1968 , inquiring about any further developments, inter alia the proposed appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases at the various offices , the Secretary for the Interior finally advised me on the 30th September, 1968 , that it had been decided to abandon the idea of such an appointment. 6. Chairman) Mr. Niksch, the Controller and Auditor-General here draws attention to a paragraph in his previous report and states that no positive steps have apparently been taken with a view to an improvement of the position. In that previous report mention was made of an unfavourable report submitted by departmental officers on an inspection carried out at only one magisterial district during November, 1966, where a review of pension cases was carried out by the magistrate concerned in August, 1966. Mention was also made that the question of the appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases at the various offices is under consideration.
(b) What was the principal consideration in deciding not to appoint a travelling inspector ; and (c) In evidence before the Public Accounts Committee , 1967 , on the same subject it was stated by the responsible accounting officer ( I quote ) : " Now we are going to discuss the matter again between the officers of Finance , Interior and the Controller and Auditor- General. " Was this discussion held before it was decided to abandon the idea of appointing a travelling inspector, especially with the Controll er and Auditor-General's representative , and if not, why not? (Mr. Niksch) Mr. Chairman , I wish to reply as follows: As far as part (a) of the question is concerned, whilst I cannot speak for a predecessor of mine in office , I most certainly did not find the report in question so unfavourable as to call for the appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases throughout the Transkei . In this, the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance concurred . Just about all the cases mentioned in the report hinge around the judgement of the inspector as against the judgement of the magistrate or assistant magistrate of the district in question. The inspector, for instance , quoted 343 cases where he considered persons to be too young to draw old age pensions . In 99% of these cases he relied solely on a visual assessment of age , e.g. colour of hair; photograph in reference Magistrates book; spritely appearance , etc. need perforce to rely on the selfsame system questioning and visual assessement of age , and the question therefore arises : Whose judgement is at fault in cases where there is a difference of opinion. I take it that it was because of this very reason that the Department of Bantu AdMinistration and Development decided some time ago to do away with a like system of contro¹ and to rely solely on the judgement of Bantu Affairs Commissioners who , in the very nature of things, can be regarded as experts in their particular field of employment. (b) What I have just said, Mr. Chairman, can be regarded as the principal consideration which decided me not to press for the appointment of a travelling inspector. I was , however , also satisfied that the stringent application of the requirement that all pensions should be reviewed annually should go a long way to improve matters generally, and that the expenditure involved in the appointment of, say, four travelling inspectors (because one inspector will most certainly not be able to do the job adequately) cannot be warranted on the strength of the available information. I may add that my department is at present also considering ways and means to correlate particulars as regards the age stated on applications for reference books and the age stated or assessed at the time of application for a pension. By so doing it will be possible to compare ages stated on two widely spaced occasions .
479.
(c) You will no doubt appreciate the difficulties which the Department of the Interior had to contend with when both the posts of Secretary and Assistant Secretary changed hands on two occasions during 1967. The discussions to which you refer took place between the Department of the Interior and the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , but sight was unfortunately lost of the fact that the local representative of the Controller and Auditor-General also had to attend the discussions. That is why the local representative was only informed of the decision after the discussions had taken place , so it was an unfortunate oversight on the part of the department.
Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor , accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl, Senior Auditor, S.W. Pienaar , Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and C.T.P. Deysel , Managing Director of the Meat Processing and Marketing Scheme were in attendance . 2 MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS MEAT PROCESSING AND MARKETING SCHEME , PARAGRAPH 1 (2) , PAGE 22 , READ WITH ANNEXURES A AND B TO STATEMENT 7, PAGES 32 AND 33.
8. Chairman) Mr. Deysel, it is noted from the Balance Sheet of the Scheme as at 31st March 1968, (Sundry Debtors ) that an amount of R8,699 was provided for bad debts. Could you please enlighten the committee of the circumstances under which the necessity for such a large provision arose ? (Mr. Deysel) Mr. Chairman, yes, there was one gentleman concerned in this. The point is that for the first two years , after 1966 , when the establishment was being put up, this gentleman was dealing with us on a wholesale basis . For two years we had no trouble with him . He had two butcher shops and quite a lot of contracts to fulfil . His monthly turnover with us was approximately R10,000 , and provision was made in post -dated cheques from him , but within a month the business just went down . I can just explain further that we then had to make provision for this loss in the balance sheet . In the meantime , through a court order this gentleman was forced to pay a certain amount back as he is a monthly salaried person at this state . This whole amount will eventually be collected but it will take a couple of years , I presume . It is hoped eventually that the whole amount will be collected . With a R10,000 a month turnover it is very easy for this sort of thing to happen. Naturally we give 30 days ' grace for all wholesalers . - (Mr. Pienaar ) Yes, Mr. Chairman , the whole thing happened within a month , because it was a normal month's business that brought about this bad debt . The possibility also exists that some of it may still be recovered from the sale of his properties , apart from his monthly payments , but not sufficient to cover this amount . (Mr. Deysel ) Yes , we are keeping a second bond on the property and it was sold two months ago. We are waiting to see how much we can get out of it, but it involves approximately R3,000 .
MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS , TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ' PENSION AND GRATUITY FUND - PAGE 23 . ACTUARIAL VALUATION (PARAGRAPH 3 (2 ) ) 7. Chairman) Mr. Niksch, in view of what is stated in the concluding paragraph by the Controller and Auditor- General, would you please inform the committee on what grounds the recommendation by the actuaries to have the next valuation of the Fund as at 31st March, 1969, instead of as at 31st March, 1971 , was not accepted, especially in view of the fact that the actuaries are obviously experienced and qualified people? - (Mr. Niksch) Mr. Chairman , as far as this matter is concerned , I wish to state that it was decided not to call for an interim valuation of the Pension Fund as it was evident that the position regarding the admission of teachers to membership of the fund has become stabilized and that the situation will not materially change over the next two years.. In other words , the position has become so stabilized that I could not see that it would change the circumstances of the fund over the next two years , but it was also clear to me that the actuaries were very conservative in their valuation of the fund, particularly if cognizance is taken of the fact that they base their calculations on an estimated investment income of 4% per annum , whereas in actual fact the investment income exceeds 7% per annum at present, so the income shown under investments was very much lower than it would be if the actual figure of 7% was taken into consideration. - (Chief Ndamase) At present do you do the valuation quinquennially, or at any particular time? - (Mr. Niksh) It is done quinquennially. (Chief Ndamase) So the 1969 valuation would be an interim ? (Mr. Niksch) Yes. - (Chief
Mr. Deysel , it is also noted 9. Chairman) that a further loss of R64,069 was incurred during the year under review, bringing the accumulated loss of the Scheme to R193,291 as at the 31st March, 1968. As experience gained during the formative period of the Scheme must surely have guided the management in their activities during the year , to what is this further substantial loss attributed? - (Mr. Deysel) As you know, Mr. Chairman, with a scheme like this it is a long-term scheme . It is not within five or six months that you can put anything right. It is a scheme which originally provided for a term of ten years . From the first year's loss of R123,000 you can see that this has been brought down by 50%. If we had carried on for another year the loss would probably have been halved again by the R64,000 . However, there is
Ndamase) Is it done to coincide with each Legislative Assembly session that is, at the end of each five-year session? (Mr. Niksch) No, because it is really a thing apart . The fund is a financial institution and is a thing apart from the ordinary government. The actuaries are there to look after the long-term investments , but it need not be tied up with the life of an Assembly . Friday, 6th June , 1969 (at 9 a.m. )
PRESENT. Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , and R. Madikizela.
480 .
appears that the work of providing the canopy alone is estimated at about R6,000.
(a) Would you kindly advise the committee as to the extent of the unfavourable report submitted by the departmental officers concerned ;
In the circumstances the Transkei Amateur Sports Association proposes that the funds standing to the credit of the Construction Account be utilised to effect general improvements to the facilities at the stadium . Tenders have been invited for the work and a tender for R3,574.00 had been received. Treasury is being approached for approval of the proposed work. As to the amount of R2,054.04 lying in the Transkei Bantu Sport Stadium Account, I have to state that this office was not aware of the existance of these monies . From discussions with officials of the T.A.S.A. it appears that the fund at present in trust is the residue of funds made available by the Rotarians for the provision of sports facilities for the Umtata people . As to the utilisation of these funds I have been informed verbally by the honorary secretary of the T.A.S.A. that these funds will be utilised for the further improvement of facilities at the Ngangelizwe Sports Stadium over and above the envisaged expenditure mentioned in paragraph two above . " Tuesday 3rd June , 1969 ( at 9 a.m.) PRESENT. Messrs . R. Msengana (Chairman), L. Cemane, V.S. Reve , R. Madikizela and Chief D.D.P. Ndamase. Messrs . J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor , accompanied by G.C. van Zyl , Senior Auditor and E.F. Niksch, Secretary for Interior in attendance.
REVENUE SERVICES , VOTE 4 (PAGE 11) : SOCIAL PENSIONS (PARAGRAPH 1 )
5. Chairman) Mr. Muller, is there any further information you may wish to offer ? - (Mr. Muller) Yes , Mr. Chairman , in response to a minute dated 3rd July, 1968 , inquiring about any further developments , inter alia the proposed appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases at the various offices , the Secretary for the Interior finally advised me on the 30th September , 1968 , that it had been decided to abandon the idea of such an appointment . 6. Chairman) Mr. Niksch, the Controller and Auditor-General here draws attention to a paragraph in his previous report and states that no positive steps have apparently been taken with a view to an improvement of the position. In that previous report mention was made of an unfavourable report submitted by departmental officers on an inspection carried out at only one magisterial district during November, 1966 , where a review of pension cases was carried out by the magistrate concerned in August, 1966. Mention was also made that the question of the appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases at the various offices is under consideration.
(b) What was the principal consideration in deciding not to appoint a travelling inspector; and (c) In evidence before the Public Accounts Committee , 1967 , on the same subject it was stated by the responsible accounting officer (I quote ) : " Now we are going to discuss the matter again between the officers of Finance, Interior and the Controller and Auditor -General. " Was this discussion held before it was decided to abandon the idea of appointing a travelling inspector, especially with the Controller and Auditor -General's representative , and if not, why not? (Mr. Niksch) Mr. Chairman, I wish to reply as follows: As far as part (a) of the question is concerned, whilst I cannot speak for a predecessor of mine in office , I most certainly did not find the report in question so unfavourable as to call for the appointment of a travelling inspector to investigate pension cases throughout the Transkei. In this , the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance concurred. Just about all the cases mentioned in the report hinge around the judgement of the inspector as against the judgement of the magistrate or assistant magistrate of the district in question . The inspector, for instance , quoted 343 cases where he considered persons to be too young to draw old age pensions . In 99% of these cases he relied solely on a visual assessment of age , e.g. colour of hair; photograph in reference book; spritely appearance , etc. Magistrates need perforce to rely on the selfsame system questioning and visual assessement of age , and the question therefore arises : Whose judgement is at fault in cases where there is a difference of opinion. I take it that it was because of this very reason that the Department of Bantu AdMinistration and Development decided some time ago to do away with a like system of contro¹ and to rely solely on the judgement of Bantu Affairs Commissioners who , in the very nature of things , can be regarded as experts in their particular field of employment. (b) What I have just said, Mr. Chairman , can be regarded as the principal consideration which decided me not to press for the appointment of a travelling inspector. I was , however, also satisfied that the stringent application of the requirement that all pensions should be reviewed annually should go a long way to improve matters generally, and that the expenditure involved in the appointment of, say, four travelling inspectors (because one inspector will most certainly not be able to do the job adequately) cannot be warranted on the strength of the available information. I may add that my department is at present also considering ways and means to correlate particulars as regards the age stated on applications for reference books and the age stated or assessed at the time of application for a pension. By so doing it will be possible to compare ages stated on two widely spaced occasions.
479.
(c) けずYou will no doubt appreciate the difficulties which the Department of the Interior had to contend with when both the posts of Secretary and Assistant Secretary changed hands on two occasions during 1967. The discussions to which you refer took place between the Department of the Interior and the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , but sight was unfortunately lost of the fact that the local representative of the Controller and Auditor-General also had to attend the discussions . That is why the local representative was only informed ofthe decision after the discussions had taken place , so it was an unfortunate oversight on the part of the department.
Messrs. J.J. Muller, Assistant Chief Auditor, accompanied by Mr. G.C. van Zyl, Senior Auditor, S.W. Pienaar , Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry and C.T.P. Deysel , Managing Director of the Meat Processing and Marketing Scheme were in attendance. MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS MEAT PROCESSING AND MARKETING SCHEME , PARAGRAPH 1 (2) , PAGE 22 , READ WITH ANNEXURES A AND B TO STATEMENT 7, PAGES 32 AND 33.
8. Chairman) Mr. Deysel , it is noted from the Balance Sheet of the Scheme as at 31st March 1968, (Sundry Debtors ) that an amount of R8,699 was provided for bad debts . Could you please enlighten the committee of the circumstances under which the necessity for such a large provision arose? - (Mr. Deysel) Mr. Chairman, yes , there was one gentleman concerned in this. The point is that for the first two years, after 1966 , when the establishment was being put up, this gentleman was dealing with us on a wholesale basis . For two years we had no He had two butcher shops trouble with him. and quite a lot of contracts to fulfil. His monthly turnover with us was approximately R10,000 , and provision was made in post- dated cheques from him, but within a month the I can just explain business just went down. further that we then had to make provision for this loss in the balance sheet. In the meantime, through a court order this gentleman was forced to pay a certain amount back as he is a monthly salaried person at this state. This whole amount will eventually be collected but it will take a couple of years , I presume. It is hoped eventually that the whole amount will be collected. With a R10,000 a month turnover it is very easy for this sort of thing to happen. Naturally we give 30 days ' grace for all wholesalers. - (Mr. Pienaar) Yes , Mr. Chairman, the whole thing happened within a month, because it was a normal month's business that brought about this bad debt. The possibility also exists that some of it may still be recovered from the sale of his properties , apart from his monthly payments , but not sufficient to cover this amount, (Mr. Deysel) Yes, we are keeping a second bond on the property and it was sold two months ago. We are waiting to see how much we can get out of it, but it involves approximately R3,000 .
MISCELLANEOUS FUNDS AND ACCOUNTS, TRANSKEIAN 1 GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ' PENSION AND GRATUITY FUND - PAGE 23. ACTUARIAL VALUATION (PARAGRAPH 3 (2) ) 7. Chairman) Mr. Niksch, in view of what is stated in the concluding paragraph by the Controller and Auditor-General , would you please inform the committee on what grounds the recommendation by the actuaries to have the next valuation of the Fund as at 31st March , 1969, instead of as at 31st March, 1971 , was not accepted, especially in view of the fact that the actuaries are obviously experienced and qualified people ? - (Mr. Niksch) Mr. Chairman , as far as this matter is concerned, I wish to state that it was decided not to call for an interim valuation of the Pension Fund as it was evident that the position regarding the admission of teachers to membership C of the fund has become stabilized and that the situation will not materially change over the next two years.. In other words , the position has become so stabilized that I could not see that it would change the circumstances of the fund over the next two years , but it was also clear to me that the actuaries were very conservative in their valuation of the fund, particularly if cognizance is taken of the fact that they base their calculations on an estimated investment income of 4% per annum , whereas in actual fact the investment income exceeds 7% per annum at present, so the income shown under investments was very much lower than it would be if the actual figure of 7% was taken into consideration. - (Chief Ndamase) At present do you do the valuation quinquennially, or at any particular time? - (Mr. Niksh) It is done quinquennially. (Chief Ndamase) So the 1969 valuation would be an interim ? - (Mr. Niksch) Yes. (Chief Ndamase) Is it done to coincide with each Legislative Assembly session - that is, at the end of each five-year session? (Mr. Niksch) No, because it is really a thing apart. The fund is a financial institution and is a thing apart from the ordinary government. The actuaries are there to look after the long-term investments , but it need not be tied up with the life of an Assembly .
9. Chairman) Mr. Deysel , it is also noted that a further loss of R64,069 was incurred during the year under review, bringing the accumulated loss of the Scheme to R193,291 as at the 31st March, 1968. As experience gained during the formative period of the Scheme must surely have guided the management in their activities during the year, to what is this further substantial loss attributed? - (Mr. Deysel) As you know, Mr. Chairman, with a scheme like this it is a long-term scheme. It is not within five or six months that you can put anything right. It is a scheme which originally provided for a term of ten years. From the first year's loss of R123,000 you can see that this has been brought down by 50%. If we had carried on for another year the loss would probably have been halved again by the R64,000. However, there is
Friday, 6th June , 1969 (at 9 a.m.) PRESENT. Messrs. R. Msengana (Chairman) , V.S. Reve , and R. Madikizela.
480.
quite an improvement. As you have said, we have learned from our first year where we had no guidance . The second year we had some guidance and I think the loss of R64,000 is not as big, seeing we also had during that year a terrific drought in the Transkei. That amount, as you can see, is at least 50% less than the first year's loss. (Mr. Pienaar) Perhaps I could just add that there were , of course , certain steps taken. After the analysis was made of the reasons for the really big loss the previous year of R123,000 an effort was then made to determine where the fault lay. I am convinced that the necessary steps were taken to improve matters but, apart from the fact that the loss did come down by a full 50 % , after that it was impossible to rectify things immediately. One of the initial reasons for the loss , for instance , was that too high a price was paid for stock. You cannot then say you are going to pay less for stock because the people will not sell . If they were used to getting good prices for their stock they will not offer their stock for sale if the price suddenly comes down. The necessary steps were taken, therefore , but it was just not possible to wipe out these reasons completely. I think it was a good effort on the part of the factory to reduce its loss to that extent, but things just did not go right.
at the figure of R10 and then revalued each year according to the number of years it is kept. We have sold calves at an average value of R40 to R50 and there was something like 60 to 64 calves involved. - (Mr. Pienaar) According to information we had from the Bantu Investment Corporation before they handed over tothe new management, they stated that the losses due to deaths were half in comparison with the previous year . In other words , there was a big improvement there . That was one of the points I made previously · that you cannot really do away with all factors immediately and completely. You cannot say you are going to buy at a price which suits you and you cannot say you are not going to have any deaths at all ; but as far as the deaths are concerned the matter was taken in hand and the losses due to deaths also halved . The other point , in connection with thefts, as Mr. Deysel has told you there was no loss due to theft. I can explain it in more detail. There were thefts but the cattle lost were eventually recovered, so there was no actual loss due to theft. - (Chairman) Thank you very much for the information, Mr. Deysel . REVENUE SERVICES, VOTE 5 , PAGE 13, PARAGRAPH 1 - GOVERNMENT SAWMILL , LOGMILLS AND PRESERVATION PLANT, READ WITH SCHEDULE 1 PAGE 16 .
10. Chairman) Mr. Deysel , in your reply to a question in the Public Accounts committee last year , whether the Auditors of the Scheme could be approached to furnish certain particulars in their statement of account in future , an assurance was given that they would be
11. Chairman) Mr. Pienaar , a loss of R10,108 for the year is reflected at the sawmill . Could you please advise the committee of the reason (Mr. Pienaar ) Mr. Chairman , the for this ? position there is that as far as the sawmill is concerned (actually , we call it the planing mill to differentiate between that and the actual sawmill) there is no way of determining the exact price which the planing mil has to pay to the sawmill for the timber acquired . The department has no accounting section as such and we just have not got the machinery in the department to do accurate cost accounting at all , so that we can only do the best of our ability to try to determine the price which the planing mill will pay to the logmills for their timber. In the same way we can also just determine arbitrarily the price which the preservation plant will pay to the logmills for the timber which it acquires from them . If you look at the statement you will see that the timber- treating plant and the logmills have both shown reasonable profits and the planing mill has shown a loss , but it could quite easily have happened the other way round. We could have paid less to the logmills and by doing the work of the planing mill at a profit the logmills would have shown a smaller profit. If you add the three together you will find there has been a profit and no total loss . It was a matter of distributing the
approached. As the required information is , however , not reflected in the Profit and Loss Account for the year under review, would you kindly advise the committee : (a) How many cattle were lost due to deaths during the year , Were there any and the value thereof? (b) cattle lost due to theft during the year and if so, what was the value ? (c) Were any calves bred during the year? Has this quantity been brought to account for the year under review and what was the amount involved ? - (Mr. Deysel) First of all , Mr. Chairman , I would like to explain that I personally have asked the auditors to put that in as requested and they stated it was impossible for them to do so. I would also like to suggest at this stage , as we are going to have new auditors from this year, that before auditing the books they should please see Mr. Muller and find out exactly how he wants it to be done . I will put it to them and they can then ascertain how it is to be done . Unfortunately , we have no figures to give you, as the scheme has been taken over by Vleis Sentraal and the former managers , the Bantu Investment Corporation , have taken all records up to Pretoria. I had no idea I was to be examined again on this and made no provision whatsoever . From memory I can tell you how many were lost through death. It was approximately 3 per cent and I think it was very low . We can ascertain this if you require it, and write to the BIC in Pretoria and get the information, but it was definitely 3 per cent losses through death and there were no losses from the:ft. A small number of calves were bred which were sold to Bantu farmers . As soon as a calf is born it is taken into account
profits between the three. The whole thing does not give you a picture which is very reliable and accurate as far as the exact position is concerned, because we cannot really determine costs accurately as we have no accounting system and it is a very involved thing, so we just determine a price which we are going to pay to the logmills and as a result we find we have paid them too much. They have made a profit and we have made a loss , but it is not an overall loss ; it is only statistical .
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PHORMIUM TENAX DECORTICATING SCHEME - PARAGRAPH 2 (2) .
any more , so even if it was sold at a very low price it was a good deal on the part of the department to sell it at all. Then we must remember that the initial cost of these machines in comparison with what we eventually asked the Xhosa Development Corporation to pay for it was much higher because since then we have had a very appreciable amount of depreciation taking place. Some of the machines depreciate at the rate of 25 per cent; some at 20 per cent a year, and that made the value very much less by the time we sold it again to the Xhosa Development Corporation. That alone explains the difference in price if you consider the depreciation which took place between the buying and selling. Then, of course , if one were to consider perhaps the wisdom of selling it to the Xhosa Development Corporation at that price I may explain to you that the department really made a fairly good deal because at the time that we disposed of this machine to the Corporation there was very strong criticism and definite doubts about the suitability of the big machine - the expensive one that cost R35,000 - because the manufacturers of these fibre fabrics and ropes said even that machine did not give the right quality. The department was therefore faced with the possibility of having to scrap that machine and install others. The department was also faced with the possibility of having to move that machine to quite a new locality. Then the Municipality of Butterworth was at the time complaining about the pollution of the water. If we were to put those things right and shift the machine to another locality and bring about improvements as far as the water disposal was concerned , that would have cost about R40,000 . We evaded that and did not have that expense at all , and yet we were able to sell the machinery , at a relatively low figure perhaps , but which was quite in accordance with the depreciation of the machine , so I think it was not a bad deal when we consider what expense we might have incurred if we had not handed over to the Xhosa Development Corporation. - (Chairman) Thank you very much Mr. Pienaar.
12. Chairman) Mr. Pienaar , it is stated here that the project comprising buildings , machinery and equipment valued at R63,900 as at 1st February, 1968. together with all spares , special tools and ancillary equipment was taken over by the Xhosa Development Corporation at a price of R40,000 . Could you please advise the committee as to the estimated value of the spares , special tools and ancillary equipment taken over and why the project was sold for such a comparatively low figure ? - (Mr. Pienaar) Mr. Chairman , the position is that in the first place I do not think that the Xhosa Development Corporation did take The over any spares from the department. spares were all on order and according to the contract they were bound to take over those spares , but in actual fact they did not take over the spares from us because at the time we had not received them . In other words , we did not actually buy the spares . According to the agreement with the firmthat manufactured the machine in Germany, the agreement was that they would supply spares to the value of 5 per cent of the cost of the machine . The machine cost us about R35,000, so it gives an idea of what the cost of the spares would have amounted to if we had actually bought them. The ancillary equipment occurs on the list in the take - over agreement and it really comprises all the machinery which was not really decorticating machinery as such - not doing the actual decorticating. The total price which we received was about R40,000 and the value was about R64,000 . We asked the Xhosa Development Corporation to pay us about R30,000 for the decorticating machine. Now, the decorticating machine , if you subtract R30,000 from the figure which we received from them , which was R40,000 , the ancillary equipment was about R10,000 . Much of that was old machinery of very little value , even if it was in good serviceable condition. It was redundant and could not be used any more. It did not give us the right quality fibre and therefore could not be used
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HECKMAN BINDERY INC.
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DEC 84 N. MANCHESTER, INDIANA 46962
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HECKMAN BINDERY INC.
DEC 84 N. MANCHESTER, INDIANA 46962
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