"Fallout and Disarmament": A Debate: Linus Pauling Vs. Edward Teller. Presented Under the Auspices of KQED-TV, San Francisco for National Non-commercial Television - Pauling-Teller Debate - The Cold War Pauling-Teller debate on nuclear testing - Fallout and disarmament, a debate: Dr. Linus Pauling ... vs. Dr. Edward Teller ... Presented under the auspices of KQED-TV, San Francisco

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Is Fallout Overrated

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FALLOUT AND DISARMAMENT The PAULING

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Is Fallout Overrated ?

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"

FALLOUT

AND DISARMAMENT" A DEBATE

DR . LINUS

PAULING

California Institute of Technology VS.

DR . EDWARD

TELLER

University of California at Berkeley

PRESENTED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF

KQED - TV • FOR NATIONAL

San Francisco

NON -COMMERCIAL TELEVISION

MODERATED

BY

MR . JAMES DAY GENERAL

FEARON PUBLISHERS

MANAGER , KQED

SAN FRANCISCO

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INTRODUCTION

MR . JAMES

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Probably no question has weighed heavier upon the conscience of Twen tieth Century man than the question of how to direct his own genius toward the elevation of mankind without unintentionally committing self -destruc tion . Central to this question is the matter of the development , testing, and control of nuclear weapons . We in these United States bear an enormous burden in the decisions which must be made . Not only were we foremost in the development and testing of these weapons , more importantly , it is the very essence of democracy that the people are sovereign in determining the policies to be pursued with re spect to their future use . It is apparent that we are appallingly unprepared to make these decisions . This may be due in some measure to the secrecy which has necessarily surrounded the development of nuclear weaponry . Unquestionably , it is due to the complexity of the question itself . Not even those best qualified to judge agree about the facts or the conclusions to be drawn from these facts . In an effort to sharpen the focus upon this compelling question , two of the world's leading scientists agreed to debate the issue of “ Fallout and Disarm ament . " Each speaks from personal convictions based upon experience , thoughtful consideration , and a profound knowledge of the subtleties in volved . Both agreed , in the interest of a fair debate , to abide by strict time limits in their presentations . The first argument will be presented by Dr. Linus Pauling ... He was born in Portland , Oregon , and educated in Oregon and California . He is Professor of Chemistry ... and Chairman of the Divi sion of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering at the California Institute of Technology . Dr. Pauling has published works in the fields of Physics , Geol ogy , Biology , Chemistry , and Medicine . He is a member of the French Academy of Medicine . A Winner of the Phillips Medal of the American Chemistry College of Physicians and Nobel Laureate his research of

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on the nature the chemical bond hereditary diseases study More recently has been conducting high intensity radiation Dr. Pauling caused also the initiator the petition signed more than 9,000 scientists urging that international petition agreement stop the testing made nuclear weapons

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January which was submitted this year the United Nations Dr. Pauling the author the book No More War Dodd Mead N.Y.

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the am interested am scientist world this wonderful world that we live am especially interested and man beings This world that we live

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really wonderful one have found out through the discoveries science The greatest these discoveries the discovery the way release energy that are think that this atoms the nuclei the great stores going make the world even better place live course this discovery that also led the development nuclear weapons atomic bombs and hydrogen bombs These weapons are terrible One great bomb that has been detonated has the explosive energy that sixteen times greater than that

the Second World War don't know how many these bombs exist The number such ten thousand the United States stock pile and similar number the Russian stock pile have been mentioned am sure that the United States has enough destroy the world and that Russia has enough these terrible weapons do the same We must not have nuclear war We must begin solve international dis way that worthy putes the application man's power reason the dignity man We must solve them arbitration negotiation the de velopment international law the making international agreements that justice peoples and will benefit will nations and nations people Now and the time start feel strongly about this Some months ago after had given talk the Washington University Graham Memorial Chapel Louis was stop bomb tests Then after this appeal had appeal prepare couraged period been signed more than two thousand American scientists began get voluntary expressions two weeks adherence this appeal from scientists other countries then wrote few hundred letters scientists other countries whom know and those whose names had got out the scientific literature and reference books and received few months thousands more answers that the thirteenth January petition with nine thousand two present this year was able forty four countries thirty hundred thirty five signatures scientists Nobel Laureates and one hundred one members the American National Academy Scientists the Secretary General the United Nations February 1958 there has been Now the issue Life for the Tenth published attack this petition call attack this petition be as

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of Life is the statement : “ DOCTOR TELLER RE FUTES NINE THOUSAND SCIENTISTS ” , and the sub - heading says “ FATHER OF H -BOMB AND COLLEAGUE ANSWER NINE THOU SAND SCIENTISTS : FALLOUT RISK IS OVERRATED ... " cause on the cover

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Moreover , I call it an attack because it contains many statements that are not true and many statements that are seriously misleading . I should like to read a sentence in this article : " Since the people are the sovereign power in democracy , it is of the greatest importance that they should be honestly and completely informed about the relevant facts They are not honestly informed nor completely informed this article

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are not true Now the petition fact does not make the statement attributed The petition says- Each added amount radiation causes damage the health human beings over the world and causes damage the pool seriously human germ plasm such lead increase the number defective children that will born future generations This statement true a

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Let me give some examples The first sentence says the petition was pre sented the U.N. The second sentence says The petition said that the tests were endangering both the present population the world and genera say that tions yet unborn And then continues the second paragraph

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don't know just how this article got written and published politician old trick attribute his adversary untrue that has not made and then demolish The third sentence says— Dr Linus Pauling the American scientist who presented the document the U.N. said further that his opinion the U.S. will never achieve one the principal objectives nuclear tests the pro radioactivity duction clean bomb that one with little And the next paragraph that statement too said not true The fact that have never made such statement Surely the authors the article knew that know enough about nuclear bombs not have made this statement cannot understand how this untrue statement could have been included the article wonder could be that statement that have made could have con fused them Ionce said and have repeated that call any weapon that can kill millions human beings clean bomb insult noble word the English language There are other erroneous statements the article said— tests con tinue the present rate radiation levels might increase much five fold extremely unlikely that anyone would receive But even this situation lifetime dosage much five roentgens from worldwide fallout Now the authors surely know that the Fourteenth Semi Annual Report July 1953 the Atomic Energy Commission published stated that seven thousand inhabitants Nevada and Utah received five roentgens more fallout radiation after some tests small bombs the Nevada test ing ground These include forty five hundred residents St. George Utah having received three and one half roentgens who were reported thir expected teen week period and also says that fifty per cent more would later from the same fallout Perhaps the joker this statement worldwide fallout But not So. Fallout consisting defined by the authors local fallout and world course statement

wide fallout . Local fallout is the radioactive contamination that falls to earth in a short time and contaminates only the test area itself. The rest of it is worldwide fallout , according to the authors of this article . So that they either have to say that the inhabitants of Southern Utah are in the test area or that

this statement is untrue . Another untrue statement relates to the incidence of leukemia in Denver as compared with San Francisco and New Orleans . Leukemia occurs , accord ing to medical reports , in somewhat larger amounts in San Francisco and New Orleans than in Denver , even though there is known to be a greater amount of cosmic radiation , high energy radiation , similar somewhat to fall out radiation , in Denver . Now , the authors continue : “ The only things these statistics prove is that radiation in small doses need not necessarily be harmful - indeed , may con ceivably be helpful . ” This statement is not true . The statistics do not prove that small amounts of radiation are not necessarily harmful or may conceiv ably be helpful . It may be that the difference of the statistics is a result of a difference in medical practice , or some other factor - a difference in the amount of radioactivity in drinking water I don't know . At any rate , this statement is untrue . Radioactive fallout causes damage to the pool of human germ plasm that does result in the birth of an additional number of defective children . I have estimated that the amount of increase in the mutation rate as the result of

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radioactive fallout from testing carried on at the present rate is one per cent ; in the number of defective children who will be born in the future . Professor Beadle , Professor of Biology , Chairman of the Division of Biol ogy in the California Institute of Technology , one of the world's leading geneticists , a distinguished authority in this field and conservative in his statements has told me that his public statements also has made the estimate one per cent the world Two There are every year seventy five million children born heredity bad per cent these children are seriously deficient because genes the bad genes that are the pool human germ plasm partially due the natural radioactivity and cosmic rays and now being increased by

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seventy five million fallout Two per cent one and half million seriously defective children born each year with various grave diseases that cause them early childhood die shortly after birth have mental deficiency serious physical defects that make them suffer their lives live their lives mental institution One per cent increase this fifteen my estimates Dr. thousand seriously defective children year According Beadle's estimates and the estimates Professor James Crow the Uni versity Wisconsin another distinguished geneticist this the number that will born each year when equilibrium reached testing Moreover the amount the present time corresponds one one superbomb with ten megatons fission released We can accordingly that the man who gives the order single large test superbomb with high fission yield dooming fifteen thousand seriously de fective children born later generations Also there are serious effects the health human beings now living according the information that now available my scientific colleagues This the opinion that great and many many have .

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MR . JAMES DAY : To present the opposing argument, here is Dr. Edward Teller Professor of Physics at the University of California at Berkeley . Dr. Teller was born in Hungary educated in Europe and has been in the United States since 1935. For the past nineteen years he has been a key figure in both theoretical and practical research in the field of nuclear explosives . As a member of the Reactor Safeguard Committee of the Atomic Energy Commission , Dr. Teller has been closely connected with studies on the control of radiation hazards . He is co - author with Dr. Albert Latter , of Op the just - published book- " Our Nuclear Future - Facts , Dangers and portunities ” ( Criterion Books , New York ) -giving a simple explanation of the nucleus, together with a description of the potentialities of nuclear energy in peace and in war . Brief excerpts from this book were published recently in Life magazine .

...

...

...

DR . EDWARD

TELLER

It is a very great pleasure to appear on this broadcast together with Dr. Linus Pauling . I have admired many phases of his work . Without any particular reason for selecting it , I would like to mention one : his research on the structure of silicates in the rocks , giant molecules , and his later related work on the giant molecules of the proteins in our bodies . These discoveries , made by similar methods, are of very great importance in helping us to understand ourselves . I also am happy about the fact that this discussion is on an educational television station . I would like to stress this word “ Education ” . The prob lems which we are discussing here are very important . The word “ Educa tion " means that we should approach this question slowly and cautiously and listen to all sides of the argument . I cannot pretend , unfortunately I wish I could — that I completely agree with Professor Pauling . I don't . If you are left with the conviction that he is right in everything he says , I believe you are making a mistake . have thought about these things carefully for many years in doing my work , and more recently , while looking into facts of other people's work , and writing a book about it. If you are left believing everything I have said , I won't be satisfied either . What I hope is that you will take time to think about these things carefully , to talk it over , and then slowly to arrive at a conclusion about this extremely important question . I would like to emphasize at the outset that there are many , many facts about which Dr. Pauling and I agree . There are many facts accepted in what

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agree very strongly with Dr. The first points with which would like Pauling quest for peace and great appreciation for human life absolutely clear that we want peace and have work for absolutely clear that each human life has high value and should not you sacrificed except for very very good reasons and then what does you have sacrificed this cannot helped wishing for Peace cannot obtained We live the same world with bury Russia whose leader has said that Wants —and means Disarmanent the cessation tests will not automatically bring peace closer has been often said and think with some justification that the first world war was brought race armament believe that by race the second world war was brought disarmament The peace loving nations disarmed and when the Hitler tyranny armed inertia was too great got away with his army and almost conquered the world Next time when tyranny arms and we don't we might not fortunate very important thing Furthermore and this we stop developing our nuclear weapons not believe that we can check whether the Rus essentially sians have done the same An agreement with the Russians will good their word and better why fear that disarmament and cessation This nuclear tests are not the right road and am particularly worried about because are playing for big stakes We are playing not only for our lives we are playing something more We are playing for freedom our own freedom the freedom our friends and allies The world has become small and every body's freedom willing sacred Anyone who defend his own freedom defending that freedom should get our support We must avoid war under possible circumstances except my opinion one when the freedom human beings stake on

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case there should war and not suppose there will we stay strong and we continue sure ourselves and know and let the Russians know that we will defend ourselves think that the peace But prepared and best way this means that must also means that we cannot sure that there won't war there war the keep that war terrible catastrophe befalls then next must try possible and small the same time we must try sure that more people will unwillingly subjected the Russian yoke This means that we prepared must meet the Russians wherever they choose attack that we should able meet them rapidly and that means very great mobility

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which turn means the necessity small and effective arms in my opinion atomic bombs fought and think limited wars can think they fought even with nuclear weapons and kept limited can great importance that these such should happen then would weapons should possible little damage human life war this fought then the danger from radioactivity will very great kind has

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he says and what we have written , and the more you look into details the more you will find that the basic facts and also the basic assumption about regret any disagreements are too strongly what we want the same obviously emphasized question great importance and because this question where our feelings can have serious effect more serious effect perhaps than they should

indeed . I shall talk about the damage due to radioactivity from testing - it is something about which I continue to say one does not need to worry about , certainly not to the same extent as one needs to worry about a war . But in the case of a war in which nuclear weapons were used , it would be extremely important that one should limit the damage to what one actually intends to damage . And this means- -this absolutely means — that we must try to get away from radioactivity as much as possible . This is what I mean when I talk about clean weapons . The word clean , any word , has not the business to be a noble word ; it should be a precise word . And the precise word in this case means to my mind that there should not be unnecessary , uncontrollable radioactive dust radioactive contamination , which would kill friend and

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One can go even further . One can talk about the cleanliness not of weapons but of nuclear explosives . Because we are making great strides toward non radioactive weapons , towards non - radioactive explosives , there is , therefore , now the possibility that we can use nuclear explosives for peaceful purposes , . ,, for digging canals , for extracting the riches from the earth and helping many people to live a better life. All this is possible only if you have clean nuclear explosives . I hope Dr. Pauling will grant that this is a worthwhile thing to do . This is the sense in which we use the word “ clean ” . I would like to apologize if we have misunderstood him in any way . The New York Times has reported Dr. Pauling as saying he expressed the belief that it would be impossible to produce a clean bomb . I would like to know whether the New York Times has misquoted Dr. Pauling and whether he asked the New York Times to correct that misquotation . In any case , I am sorry if we have misunderstood . question damage Now at would come would radioactivity say this there spread throughout doubt that some the world nuclear explosions Ďr Pauling says this causes damage He quite serious may kill people expresses his concern that this damage will We call this danger have thereby overstepped then will humbly deadly which Dr. damage that can apologize for the difference between Pauling meant and danger which that point did not mean even though says little later the same appeal scientists have knowledge the danger involved This may have helped mislead believing that Dr. Pauling was talking about dangers Now me tell you right here this alleged damage which the small radio supposedly cancer and leukemia activity causing has not been proved my knowledge by any kind decent and clear statistics the best my mind that there possible that there damage even possible damage and there the possibility furthermore that very small amounts radioactivity are helpful Some people believe the healing powers radioactive waters not unscientific belief The conviction that radioactivity are necessarily damaging small amounts think not .

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There another point and the point that Dr. Pauling had mentioned last heredity genetics We know enough about the mechanism The question just changes germ plasm sure that will made the Dr. Pauling these has said and many very many probably the great majority changes will damaging Yet without some changes evolution would

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I would like to leave with you one thought , and perhaps we will want to return to it : If we proceeded in everything with as great a caution as we are proceeding in the case of nuclear testing , there would be very little progress in the world . Dr. Pauling , as a great professor , surely does not want that

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PAULING Dr. Teller has said that peace cannot obtained wishing for solve achieve peace without starting We are not going developing the world problems international law and making agree the world ments international agreements that are safe for every nation work We need the world We need all the nations that do justice put into the effort for these international agreements amount work that comparable year that we put into that the forty billion dollars ;

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We need have great amounts discussion conferences between scien tists and specialists sorts American and Russian top level confer satisfactory agreement has been ences but also lower conferences until reached to

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The Russians have proposed that there agreement cessation satisfactory system stop bomb tests with controls and inspections and agreement including also we have proposed that there the same sort the stopping further stockpiling atomic weapons have verified this January 1958. I'm sure that with Mr. Stassen talk with him possible acceptable achieve reasonable compromise that will cataclysmic war nations that will decrease the danger the outbreak being done and will also stop the damage that future generations and the health human beings who are now living ,

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get along About Krushchev saying that shall bury you We have with the Russians killed The estimate made Dr. Kellogg his testimony before the Congressional Sub Committee radiation damage was that attack the U.S. with two hundred fifty nuclear weapons seventy would lead two million people killed the end two months twenty one million seriously injured fifty eight million still living way that not Dr. Teller would like see nuclear wars fought such many people are killed only the young men the tens young millions men who make our armies and those few tens millions perhaps rather protected against death than hundreds millions civilians who cannot underground shelters expensive system even with didn't interpret the statement that Krushchev made we shall bury you the way that Dr. Teller did seems me from his context that was saying that socialism communism the world will bury capitalism not war but just through the development the political systems happen various countries course not want this don't like this political systems that idea believe that we need have different kinds we need have different nations but that the way settle the problem large the differences not kill off most the people the world fraction the people the world with these terrible nuclear weapons Dr. Teller has asked me about statement that read from the New York impossible Times that had said that would make clean bomb have never seen that statement have never seen the article itself haven't impos responded can only say never made the statement that

sible to make a bomb with little or no radioactivity . Perhaps Dr. Teller could tell us whether he thinks it is possible to make and detonate a bomb that has no radioactivity whatsoever . have made a statement about a clean bomb using the word “ clean ” in a somewhat different sense . Dr. Teller says we must meet the Russians wherever they choose to at

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tack . This sounds to me as though he were preparing for a nuclear war . I do not believe that there is going to be a nuclear war . I believe that these great stockpiles of nuclear weapons are really deterrents, as President Eisenhower has described them : deterrents that will prevent war ; and that the next step that we really need to take is the step of instituting an effective , sound , safe system of settling international differences , international disputes , by arbitration . Now , to carry on the tests means , as I have said , that according to the best estimates of geneticists , whom agree fifteen thousand children are sac rificed for every large bomb tested that produces stratospheric radio activity gets into the grass gets into the food that slowly descends the ground cattle gets into the milk and then gets into the bones children Dr. Teller and Dr. Latter their article have said that this causes increase one tenth per cent the number mutations They not mention the produced number defective children that will one tenth per cent increase the number defective mutations one thousand five year My estimate and Professor Beadle's estimate hundred fifteen year the highest estimates that have been made thousand one hundred fifty thousand year for testing the present rate That one thousand five hundred children for one large bomb fifteen thousand child my estimate for one large bomb perhaps many more Also ren according damage there the health human beings now living agreement stop the bomb tests We must make

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PAULING wish that Dr. Teller would explain these untrue statements the article Life He says that the misquotation from the petition was possibly suggested the fact that the end the petition we mentioned

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of outbreak of catastrophic world war . If testing continues and stockpiles of nuclear weapons get into the hands I don't know how long it will of a great many countries , as will soon happen be before France , Sweden , many other countries, perhaps Israel and the Arab countries , North and South Korea , and Germany have nuclear weapons — then there would be great danger of outbreak of a catastrophic world war . What about the amount of radiation to which the people in Utah have been exposed , an amount over five roentgens ? That is an untrue statement, the statement about the interpretation of statistics . Moreover , there are

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increase in the number of defective children born . Who believes , who is there who believes , that medical statistics are good enough in Tibet to detect this fifteen per cent increase in the number of defective children , as compared

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the question international agreements safely pursued under atomic energy could would wonderful done could wish could done don't know whether it's possible know that dangerous ban other tests because ban can violated by Russia and won't violated by important But would like tell you now one thing that think have tell you that am not talking about these things calmly have feelings Hungary from where have strong feelings Many people were killed Hungary lost their freedom people came and my mind This question freedom the most important question killing but I'm don't want kill anybody am passionately opposed even more passionately fond freedom The freedom Dr. Pauling and myself expressing our opinions freely any subject however broad how ever far removed our proper competence but particularly able possible really know this would not express our opinions the fields Russia Dr. Pauling made big discovery about resonance chemical bonds For this received the Nobel Prize For years this discovery was suppressed Russia because contradicted some kind official philosophy Russia am talking for my freedom for his freedom and for the freedom for of us

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MR JAMES DAY The agreed upon limits the debate have been reached apparent that the issue has not been resolved I'm sure both our guests would agree that ultimate solution rests our hands that each

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On behalf the Thirty Educational Television Stations America we express our thanks would like these distinguished men science not only for giving the benefit their considered thought upon this matter meeting but for their moral courage this face face debate that might profit more

KQED KQED

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OF MICHIGAN NIVERSITY

00155 3 9015

4198

Gaylord PAMPHLET BINDER Syracuse, N. Y. Stockton, Calif.